--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: We will start the proceedings. Just for the record, today is Monday the 7th of December 1998. This is a continuation of the amnesty hearings of members of the Thokoza Self Defence Units.

The panel is constituted as previously indicated on the record and the appearances are basically the same, except that this morning Mr Mopedi would be representing the first and I believe all of the remaining applicants who are scheduled for today.

We would just like to apologise for not having been able to start earlier. We have had some logistical problems related to the fact that some of the members of the panel, travels back when we reach the end of the week, and has to travel back on a Monday morning, and that often leads to logistical and other problems like this morning.

We apologise for the delay in starting the proceedings.

The first application this morning is that of Mr Alpheus Vusimuzi Twala. It is application number AM7732/97 and the application itself appears at page 132 of the Lusaka B bundle.

Mr Twala, good morning, and welcome. Will you please just put your full names on the record for us please.

MR TWALA: My name is Alpheus Vusimuzi Twala.

ALPHEUS VUSIMUZI TWALA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please sit down. Mr Mopedi.

EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Twala, you are the applicant in this matter, and you were a member of SDU for Lusaka B, Thokoza, is that correct?

MR TWALA: Yes.

MR MOPEDI: When did you become a member of the SDU?

MR TWALA: In 1993.

MR MOPEDI: Who was your Commander?

MR TWALA: It was Makosonki Mhlope.

MR MOPEDI: As a member of the SDU, what were your activities?

MR TWALA: It was to defend, to protect the community.

MR MOPEDI: You were defending the community, against whom were you defending the community?

MR TWALA: We were defending the community against the Inkatha Freedom Party members.

MR MOPEDI: Could you tell this forum your activities as a member of the SDU, in which incidents were you involved?

MR TWALA: The incident that I was involved in was the Buthelezi Street incident.

MR MOPEDI: Proceed to explain.

MR TWALA: Towards the end of 1993, I can't remember the month or date, there was an attack that took place at Slovo, the Inkatha Freedom Party members launched an attack to the community there.

At Slovo in 1993, we saw people coming, running towards our section at Lusaka B. The Commander told me as a member of SDU and he gave me an AK47 and he instructed me to go and defend and protect the community there, so as to prevent the attackers from proceeding to our own section, after attacking Slovo. I did so.

MR MOPEDI: So what happened there?

MR TWALA: I went there to Buthelezi Street, where the situation was tense, and there was the people fighting and I also used my AK47 and I started shooting also.

MR MOPEDI: Were you alone?

MR TWALA: I was not alone, there were other people from Slovo and Qaza Mhlope came and Gushi came, but Gushi has since passed away.

MR MOPEDI: Was your Commander there?

MR TWALA: Yes, he also come, he was with us too and the Commander from Slovo section.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, can you slowly repeat the names you have just given of those who were involved with you?

MR TWALA: It was Qaza Mhlope and Gushi, I don't know his surname. It was Commander Makosonki Mhlope.

ADV SANDI: Which one was your section, you say the idea was to prevent these people from coming over to your section. Which one was your section?

MR TWALA: My section was Lusaka B.

ADV GCABASHE: And just finally, Commander of Slovo, was that Bonga?

MR TWALA: No, it was not Bonga.

ADV GCABASHE: Who was it?

MR TWALA: I think it was Blah. There was exchange of fire, and one would take cover so as to run away from the bullets. That went on and on until such time the Stability Unit came and when they came, we just decided to run away because we knew very well that these people would shoot to kill.

When we were trying to run away, Qaza fell and he is the one who got injured. He was cut by something on his neck and we went back, we took the guns back to the Commander and we took Qaza to the hospital.

MR MOPEDI: Did you shoot in the direction of Inkatha members?

MR TWALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Do you know whether you killed or injured anyone?

MR TWALA: I cannot say yes or no, because we were also shooting to kill, because we had no choice, but I did not see anyone who was injured, because the Stability Unit came and we ran away, we did not have a chance to go back to the scene and check who was injured.

MR MOPEDI: Do you exclude the possibility that you might have shot, killed or even injured someone?

MR TWALA: It is true, because one can be killed by a gun. I can say that is possible.

MR MOPEDI: You had an AK47 in your possession, is that correct?

MR TWALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Was it licensed?

MR TWALA: No, it was unlicensed. That is why I decided to come here and testify and ask for amnesty because I was in possession of an unlawful arm.

MR MOPEDI: Prior to 1993, were you a member of an SDU, prior to 1993, or were you ever involved in any activities in which you were defending the community?

MR TWALA: I can say I was never involved in any organisation, but I was just supporting the ANC. I was still a scholar at the time, but I was an ANC supporter.

MR MOPEDI: If I understand you correctly, you were not a member of the ANC, but you actually wanted to be a member of the ANC, is that what you tell us?

MR TWALA: Yes, I also wanted to be an ANC member. I only had a membership card for the ANC in 1993.

MR MOPEDI: Are there any further incidents after this one?

MR TWALA: We were patrolling in our section, I was involved in that, in the barricading also.

MR MOPEDI: So patrolling, what were you actually doing when you were patrolling, could you be specific?

MR TWALA: What we would do, was to look out for arms that would just ring, that were fired, and we did not even know who were firing. Whenever we got those arms, we would confiscate them and take them to the Commander if they were unlicensed.

If they were licensed, we would take the particulars of those people and make a list of the people who were in possession of lawful arms, licensed arms.

MR MOPEDI: You personally, did you at any stage confiscate any firearm or any weapon from any person?

MR TWALA: Yes, I did get a firearm that was unlawful. We took it to the Commander and we told him that we got it somewhere else and that particular person was questioned and we told him that if we happened to find a dead person, he would be in trouble because we are the people who were supposed to be having guns.

Then that person was reprimanded and he was told that he won't get that arm again, that firearm and the firearm would be used to protect the community.

MR MOPEDI: And you also said that you were using a firearm, an AK47 at Buthelezi?

MR TWALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: What happened to this firearm eventually?

MR TWALA: I said I used the firearm.

MR MOPEDI: And then what happened to it finally, did you keep it for yourself or what happened to it?

MR TWALA: Will you please repeat your question?

MR MOPEDI: The firearm, the AK47 that you were using at Buthelezi, you told us that you were given that firearm by Makosonki, your Commander that you should use it to shoot, so after the shooting, what happened to it?

MR TWALA: When I finished using the AK47 and the Stability Unit came, I ran away and it was still with me because I was not injured.

We took Qaza and Gushi took Qaza's firearm and we went back to the section and we submitted the firearms and we arranged a car to take Qaza to the hospital.

MR MOPEDI: If you say you took it back, you took it back to your Commander?

MR TWALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Did you get it back again from your Commander, the very same firearm?

MR TWALA: No, I did not get it back because they were rotating. We did not have enough ammunition and firearms in the section.

MR MOPEDI: So are you applying for amnesty?

MR TWALA: Yes, that is correct. I am asking for amnesty because I used an unlawful firearm.

MR MOPEDI: Do you have further incidents that you would like to tell us about?

MR TWALA: No, there is nothing else. I have mentioned the two incidents that I was involved in, Buthelezi with an unlicensed firearm and we were barricading and patrolling during the night, those are the only two incidents.

MR MOPEDI: Do you also ask for amnesty in case that you shot people when you were shooting at members of IFP at Buthelezi?

MR TWALA: Yes, I am applying for amnesty for that, because I will never know if my bullet did hit someone. That is why I am also applying for amnesty. I know a firearm is a dangerous weapon.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Steenkamp, questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Any questions by the panel?

ADV SANDI: Thank you Chair. Mr Twala, what happened to the firearm which you say you confiscated from a certain person in the street?

MR TWALA: That firearm was taken to the Commander and we took that particular person and that person was questioned by the Commander and he explained to the Commander how did he get that firearm.

ADV SANDI: What kind of a firearm was it?

MR TWALA: It was a small firearm.

ADV SANDI: Your lawyer has asked you what happened to the AK47 and you said you did not get it back because they were rotating. Can you explain this?

Do you mean to say that you never saw this particular AK47 or you were later given a different AK47?

MR TWALA: I am trying to say at that particular time, I left for the hospital, then I did not get a chance, I did not get that firearm again and go on other missions, just like the one at Slovo section.

After that, I never had any firearm. Nothing happened that required me to go and fight.

ADV SANDI: These incidents which occurred at Buthelezi, are you sure that is the only incident during the conflict between IFP members and SDU's, is that the only incident you were involved in? There is no other incident whatsoever?

MR TWALA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair. Just one question, can you clarify the patrolling and barricading that you were involved in, was that pre-1993 or after 1993?

MR TWALA: It was in 1993 and up to 1994, shortly before the elections.

ADV GCABASHE: As a member of the SDU at the time?

MR TWALA: Yes, I was doing that as a member of the SDU.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you very much. Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mopedi, any re-examination?

MR MOPEDI: None, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Twala, thank you, you are excused.

MR TWALA: Thank you very much.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mopedi, who is the next applicant?

MR MOPEDI: Mr Chairman, the next applicant is Johannes Dingane Nkosi, it is for Lusaka B, but the application appears in Lusaka A, it is page 329.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nkosi, can you hear me?

MR NKOSI: Yes, I can hear you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you please stand and then give your full names for the record?

MR NKOSI: My name is Johannes Dingane Nkosi.

JOHANNES DINGANE NKOSI: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Please sit down. Mr Mopedi?

EXAMINATION BY MR MOPEDI: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Nkosi, you were also a member of SDU for Lusaka B?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is so.

MR MOPEDI: Are you also applying for amnesty?

MR NKOSI: That is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Did you also join the SDU in 1993?

MR NKOSI: That is true.

MR MOPEDI: And Makosonki was also your Commander?

MR NKOSI: That is so.

MR MOPEDI: As a member of the SDU for Lusaka B, what were your activities?

MR NKOSI: It happened that we were based in a certain area, that is myself together with other members of the SDU and Makosonki Mhlope came and he told me that we should go and attack a certain gentleman whose name I have forgotten, I think it was Mr Sithole who we were required to attack.

He was staying at 1285 Gamedi Street. It was myself, my Commander Makosonki, together with Vusi Sibiya.

ADV GCABASHE: A little slowly. Please go over those names again, Makosonki. You were with Makosonki and?

MR NKOSI: It was myself and Makosonki Mhlope and Vusi Sibiya.

ADV GCABASHE: And then just finally before you go on, Gamedi Street, which section is that in?

MR NKOSI: It is Lusaka B.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you.

MR NKOSI: When we arrived there at Gamedi, we went inside. Makosonki was armed with an AK47, I, myself had five litre petrol and we had asked for it from one gentleman because we knew what was happening, and the gentleman himself did not ask questions, he just gave us the petrol, because he knew what was happening.

We went inside, but we found no one there, there was just a big lock in the house, it was locked, a padlock and we went straight to the shack. We knew where the owner of the house was using both the house and the shack. We went inside the shack and we kicked the door of the shack and there was no one.

I poured petrol in there. Vusi Sibiya had a match. He set the shack alight. We went out running, because we did not want the police to find us there.

We dispersed thereafter. The following day, the morning, I saw that even the house itself, was burnt down. It looked like since the shack was just next to the house, when the shack was burning, even Mr Sithole's house got effected. That I saw in the morning, and I didn't even care thereafter.

I just went on, I went straight home.

MR MOPEDI: Why was it necessary for you with your comrades, to attack or to target Mr Sithole?

MR NKOSI: The reason for it, Mr Sithole was a member of the IFP organisation. Most of the time, he was harassing us whenever he sees us in the streets, he used to say that we are the (indistinct) generation.

He was always found in Mazambani's company and Mazambani's name is banned and they used to go during the night and he would even ask me to watch his car and the car would, I would see blood in his car and I know that he had a lot of scandals. He was also killing the ANC members.

MR MOPEDI: How do you know that they were killing members of the ANC?

MR NKOSI: Mazambani used to tell us straight that we cannot tell him anything, he can kill, he could kill and he was very proud to tell us that he was an IFP member.

He used to boast about that. Even at home, at my own home, I knew that Mazambani was that type of a person who would go and do the things. There was no reason for me to ask him, because I was also scared of him.

There came a time when Mazambani had to leave our section because he knew that there were some death threats.

MR MOPEDI: Do you know where he is now?

MR NKOSI: Yes, I know where he is.

MR MOPEDI: Where is he?

MR NKOSI: He is residing at Khumalo Street in Thokoza.

MR MOPEDI: His house, the one that you have burned, what happened to the house, or who occupies the house now?

MR NKOSI: That house, there is a lady who is staying there. I am not sure whether she is leasing the property or something, but I know that there is a woman that is staying there.

MR MOPEDI: Is Mr Sithole aware that you will be applying for amnesty today?

MR NKOSI: No, he is not aware.

MR MOPEDI: Do you have further incidents that you would like to tell us about?

MR NKOSI: Some incidents, I never remember well because of the situation prevailing at that time. Even I would have some blackouts sometimes.

Anything that I cannot remember, I would like to apply for amnesty for anything that might come up, things that I was involved in. I will never ever deny that I was not there.

I am here today to seek amnesty for those incidents. Even those that I cannot remember, I am also asking for forgiveness to the people effected.

MR MOPEDI: Were you involved in patrolling?

MR NKOSI: Yes, I was patrolling, I was involved in patrolling.

MR MOPEDI: As you were patrolling, do you remember what was actually happening whilst you were patrolling?

MR NKOSI: As I was patrolling, I was armed with an AK47. I would meet some other people with unlicensed arms or knives or anything that were regarded as weapons.

If we meet that type of a person, we would take him to our Commander and the Commander would deal with that person and take a decision about a person who was found with an unlawful weapon.

MR MOPEDI: The AK47 that you have just mentioned, were you licensed to possess it or to carry it?

MR NKOSI: No, that was unlawful possession. I would be arrested by the police.

MR MOPEDI: So you were carrying it without being licensed to carry it and so you are also asking for amnesty in respect of the firearm, the AK47 itself?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Did you ever fire a shot from the AK47 that you have talked about?

MR NKOSI: No, not at all.

MR MOPEDI: Do you have further incidents that you could remember now?

MR NKOSI: The other incidents that I can remember, they took place in 1990.

As a scholar at the time, at Letutula Secondary School in Katlehong, there was a conflict between two members, KATO and five taxi associations, two taxi associations in Katlehong. There were among KATO association members, that other drivers were my school mates and we were also involved as scholars in that conflict, because some of the drivers were scholars too.

One day it was on a Monday, we were preparing ourselves to write the examinations. The IFP members came. All of them were Zulu's. Mr Cebekulu was still alive at that time. Cebekulu was well known among Inkatha circles. He had his own taxi's.

They were quarrelling and saying we were in favour of the Association called Five and we were against his taxi's. We ended up having a meeting as Letutula scholars and we took a decision to shoot at them.

We took that decision, I was with Themba Miya, if I am not mistaken. He was residing at Gobapad, now he is no more. Themba had firearms. I can say he had a pump gun, he had some pump guns. We left our class at school.

All the children had run away because he had those firearms, and we knew that they were coming, and we went out and shot at those people. We ran to Paragon Cinema Hall.

Paragon is just situated next to my school. We went inside the Paragon Cinema and the shows would normally start at two o'clock. We managed to get a chance of hiding the arms in there because the situation was already bad outside.

We left Paragon Cinema at about four o'clock, because it was already known by the other people, they knew very well who was shooting because the children released information, the other scholars released the information and they mentioned my name and Themba.

It was already known by the people that we were the people who were shooting. On the following day, on the Tuesday, I met with Themba at school. No one wanted to come in, in the school premises because all of us were so scared.

Even myself, I was not comfortable, I had to go home. I told my father about everything that happened.

MR MOPEDI: Did you shoot anyone or did you kill anyone or injure anyone as you were shooting?

MR NKOSI: Yes. Yes.

MR MOPEDI: Could you tell us who did you shoot or who did you kill or who did you injure?

MR NKOSI: I don't know the identity, but I saw the person, the way he or she was running, I saw him getting in the kombi, but I could see the possibility that this person could die.

MR MOPEDI: Can you say that with certainty, or do you think that since you shot in the direction of that person, you might have hit him with a bullet?

MR NKOSI: Yes, I am sure about that. I am sure that I aimed at that person with my bullet.

MR MOPEDI: Do you know whether the person that you are referring to, eventually died or not?

MR NKOSI: No, I don't know. I don't know whether he died or not.

MR MOPEDI: You further told us that you were effected by the violence itself at school between the taxi people. How were you effected if you were effected adversely?

MR NKOSI: What made me to be effected is because my school mates, some of them were drivers in the KATO organisation, taxi organisation, and they were also harassed because of the Inkatha members.

Mr Cebekulu was an Inkatha member, meaning the opponent, the KATO opponent was an Inkatha member, so I couldn't allow that my class mates be harassed by other people, knowing very well that this particular person is working at the same time, and is also a scholar.

MR MOPEDI: So you are also asking for amnesty in respect of that incident, in that you had a firearm which was not licensed and you shot another person?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

MR MOPEDI: Is there anything that you would like to add on what you have told us already?

MR NKOSI: All I can say, I cannot remember everything because of my situation in 1993 up to 1994. I cannot remember clearly everything.

MR MOPEDI: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mopedi. Any questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions by the panel?

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair. Mr Nkosi, the incident with Cebekulu, this was taxi rivalry really between two associations, is this what you are saying?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Did this rivalry have a political basis, in other words were the two opposing parties members of different political groups?

MR NKOSI: I can say so because my school mates from the Letutula Secondary School, I knew them that they were members of the ANC like myself, and those who were in Mr Cebekulu's side, were IFP members as I know that he was also an IFP member.

ADV GCABASHE: Was the rivalry based on their political differences?

MR NKOSI: It was not based on political differences. The KATO group was the one that was favoured most by the community, to such an extent that the communities did not like the other group's taxi's, because they were dirty and now this KATO group was, the drivers, they were youngsters and they were always clean, all the time.

ADV GCABASHE: So you are saying that because the community preferred one set of taxi's to another, Mr Cebekulu was not happy about this, and decided to attack the drivers of the KATO taxi's?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: How long did this conflict go on for?

MR NKOSI: It started in 1990 and it resurfaced again later on, but it started in 1990 and 1991 until such time that Thokoza was also effected. It went on until 1993 now in Thokoza.

ADV GCABASHE: Just explain to me what do you mean by saying it went on into 1993 in Thokoza? What I am thinking, and I may be wrong, is that you are saying that ultimately this taxi rivalry was brought into the Thokoza community? I may be wrong with my understanding of what you are saying, please help me there.

MR NKOSI: I am saying it even went to Thokoza because of the situation in Katlehong. Like myself, my home, is the last street in Thokoza and it is facing the Katlehong, it is the last street from Thokoza.

Whatever is taking place in Katlehong, would also effect the Thokoza residents. The people from Thokoza had to go and help there in that taxi violence. This group was GND, this other group that was against KATO was GND, that is Cebekulu's members, GND.

Some members from the community were involved in those types of conflict because we had to go and help the people in Katlehong, because it looked like now it was the ANC and IFP conflict.

ADV GCABASHE: Let's come to the specific fight at the school, when somebody had a pump gun, how many of you were there at the school that day?

MR NKOSI: On that particular day there was a lot of us, but the people who were armed was myself and Themba. Themba was a close friend of mine, we do things together to such an extent that he decided to give me one firearm and he had his own.

ADV GCABASHE: There were many of you, how many eventually got involved in the fight?

MR NKOSI: The people who got involved in the fight, except myself and Themba, were other boys, I cannot remember their names, but when we were running away, there was a lot of us and I ended up with Themba as we ran into the Paragon Cinema, trying to hide the guns.

ADV GCABASHE: What did the others do, they had no firearms? What was their role in fighting the people who were with Mr Cebekulu?

MR NKOSI: The others were whistling, trying to alert the others that there was a fight.

ADV GCABASHE: I am still not so sure that I understand why your school in particular, was attacked. If I am wrong, please correct me. Was this because Themba and the other drivers were seen as opponents by Cebekulu and his association?

MR NKOSI: Cebekulu was against my school mates, because they were driving the taxi's from the KATO group, that is why I was also effected, and I was also effected because I could not allow anything, I could not allow seeing my school mates being harassed by the other people.

ADV GCABASHE: Who alerted the group to the fact that Mr Cebekulu and his group were coming to your school on that particular day to come and attack the drivers?

MR NKOSI: We used to, Oupa used to come to us, I am not sure of his surname, he was one of the drivers and he was also my school mate. He would come to us and tell us that someone else is chasing him, and he would come and tell us that I am uncomfortable, I cannot do my job properly.

I met some people at the shopping centre and my car was full of passengers, and they would ask me why was my car full and so on. Themba used to tell us that the people used to complain that he was ranking there, he was working there, but the car used to be full all the time.

I cannot remember his last name, but his first name was Oupa.

ADV GCABASHE: On the day of the attack, how did you know that you must carry your guns on that day and that you were going to be attacked, or did you carry them for quite a few days, for a number of days? I am not sure I understand, just help me understand exactly how it happened.

MR NKOSI: Themba was always having a firearm at school. On that particular day, I cannot say what happened, why did he bring both firearms. I can say maybe he heard, maybe we had some information that these people would be coming to attack.

Maybe we had to protect ourselves and protect the other school mates.

ADV GCABASHE: Again this specific incident, when Mr Cebekulu and his group got there, how many of them were there and did they come in and confront you before the fight started, and if they did, what did they say? Just explain that scene to me.

MR NKOSI: At that time, as we were still sitting, we heard a noise made by the follow school mates. When I went out, I saw kombi's, about six kombi's, and the other pupils were out of the classes and the kombi's were surrounding the school.

When I went out with Themba, we took out our firearms, I was on the first floor of the building. I could see what was actually happening because the Paragon Cinema is closer to our school. I can see everything that is taking place in the Paragon vicinity if I am in class.

When we heard this noise and the other children were jumping from the highest floor down, and there were gun shots all over.

That is where I realised that this is the time to use my firearm.

ADV GCABASHE: And those first gun shots came from the six taxi's that had surrounded the school?

MR NKOSI: Yes, that is correct.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Mr Nkosi, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Mopedi, any re-examination?

MR MOPEDI: No re-examination Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Nkosi, thank you. You are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: We will adjourn for lunch until two o'clock. We are adjourned.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: The next application is that of Simon Alton Ngwengwa, it is reference number AM7299/97, and the application appears at page 176 in the Lusaka B bundle and the applicant is being represented by Mr Sibeko.

Mr Ngwengwa, won't you please rise and give us your full names?

MR NGWENGWA: My name is Simon Ngwengwa, I reside at 14027 Polla Park. I was a Chairperson of the ANC in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: Won't you just remain standing, I want you to take the oath, I want to swear you in before you tell us what happened.

SIMON ALTON NGWENGWA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Please sit down Mr Ngwengwa. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ngwengwa, you have also made an application for amnesty, is that correct?

MR NGWENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Were you a member of any political organisation in or about the year, starting from the year 1990 to 1993?

MR NGWENGWA: Yes, that is correct. I used to be a member and I am still a member of the ANC. I am also the Chairperson of the Polla Park branch. That started in 1989 up to 1998, and after the elections I was the Deputy Chairperson.

MR SIBEKO: Do you confirm that you have made an application for your involvement in the acts or activities of violence that took place in your place of residence, that is Polla Park in 1990?

MR NGWENGWA: Yes, that is correct. I made an application.

MR SIBEKO: What specifically necessitated or necessitates your application for amnesty?

MR NGWENGWA: What necessitated the fact that I make an application for amnesty, the fact that at the time of the attacks of the people of Polla Park in 1990, they came to me as the Chairperson of the Polla Park branch and they needed a solution because we were being attacked and I could see it because I was among them. We were being attacked.

What I said to them, first of all I called a meeting, I told them that there is no other way of protecting the community, except uniting and trying to get some solution, because there were a target, they were victims. That is the reason that made me to make this application.

When they met, as they were complaining, I told them to defend themselves. During the attacks by the people who were doing that, it would happen that after a fight, there would be people who were left behind and they were dying. As a person who had a jurisdiction over that area, I think that as I have already said that the attacks that were taking place in our place of residence in Polla Park, I mobilised the people and I told them to get together and try to find some ways of protecting or defending themselves.

After the fights that would take place there, there would be some dead bodies at that place, Polla Park, and we would look at those dead bodies, we wouldn't be able to identify them. Although we couldn't identify them, but we knew that those were the dead bodies of the people who came to attack the Polla Park. Among those dead bodies, there would be people who were coming from the nearest hostel, hostel number 4, that hostel was called Kalanyoni.

All the people who were attacking us, were from that hostel.

ADV SANDI: Can you repeat the name of the hostel, Mr Ngwengwa, is it ...

MR NGWENGWA: The name of the hostel was Kalanyoni hostel.

MR NGWENGWA: The people who were attacking us, were from that nearest hostel, Kalanyoni.

When these conflict would take place, that is when we were involved as the people of Polla Park. Though I am not sure about the date, but I think it was the 12th of August 1990. There were people who were attacked in that hostel, and they were being forced to take membership, IFP membership.

Part of those people who were attacked during those days, ran away. They went to Polla Park, since the Polla Park was the nearest. Polla Park used to be shacks at that time. That is why, as we knew that this was actually taking place in Sebokeng, it was not true, the fact that only Xhosa's were fighting the Zulu's, that was not true.

The reason for the fight is that the people were being forced to join the IFP. When they tried to protect or defend themselves, some people got injured.

That is why I see myself as a person who had a contribution, because I did suggest to people, because I did not have a choice, I did suggest to people to do something, to protect themselves. During that process of trying to protect themselves, some people were killed.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Ngwengwa, will I be correct to say that your application is mostly for firstly, convening meetings? You will correct me again if I say in those meetings, you encouraged and incited people to stand up and fight so that they could defend themselves? Is that what you are actually saying in essence?

MR NGWENGWA: Yes, that is correct. That is the main reason, because in those meetings that were convened, this is where the plan came and people had to protect and defend themselves.

MR SIBEKO: In your testimony you said you were approached when the attack started, you were approached. I would like you to tell us whether you were approached in your capacity as the Chairperson of the branch of the ANC or as an ordinary member of the community?

Why were you specifically approached?

MR NGWENGWA: People approached me as the Chairperson of the African National Congress branch of Polla Park. If the other people came for other reasons, I won't disagree with you, but all I know is that the people came to me as the Chairperson of the branch.

MR SIBEKO: In your testimony again, you said unlike in other areas like in Sebokeng, where the violence was branded to be between Xhosa's and Zulu's, in Polla Park, it was different such that people were forced to take up membership of the IFP.

Will I be correct to assume that the reason for the outbreak of violence in Polla Park was due to the fact that people were forced to join the IFP, it was sort of political?

The reason, the source of the whole violence?

MR NGWENGWA: That is partly true, but I want to correct something. The fact that people were forced to be IFP members, that was not taking place in Polla Park, it was taking place in Kalanyoni hostel.

The people who ran away from Kalanyoni, they were running away from Kalanyoni hostel as they were forced to join the IFP and they were running to Polla Park. What you have said is true, that is actually what caused the disagreement among the people.

MR SIBEKO: You convened those meetings, you incited people to stand up and defend themselves. How did you hope to achieve such a defence? What took place so that the people could defend themselves? What emanated from the meetings?

MR NGWENGWA: First of all, I knew that there is nothing that can come among the people who are united. That is the reason why I called that meeting, because I wanted to unite these people so that they can be able to defend themselves.

As the Chairperson of the African National Congress at Polla Park, I indicated to them that according to the policies of the ANC as a leader, I will never be able to suggest directly. They have to devise some means when it comes to the fights and the conflicts.

I will never be directly involved. They have to get someone who will facilitate such things. Indeed they appointed a Commander whose name was Daniel Mbamba, I think he is also one of the applicants today. He is the one who got directly involved in discussing the issues as to how to prevent the people after I had mobilised them.

MR SIBEKO: In the forms of defence that were taken up by the community members of Polla Park, it is common cause, it is a well known fact today that there was violence from both sides, from the forces outside Polla Park and from the forces within Polla Park, as a result of which people died and many were injured.

Do you associate yourself with the actions that were taken by the community members of Polla Park in defence of the life and property of Polla Park?

MR NGWENGWA: Yes, I do associate myself as a person who united them, and I suggested that they have to try and defend themselves. I had a contribution, because I called them together and I showed them the need to protect themselves.

ADV SANDI: Mr Ngwengwa, can you try to be more specific as to what role exactly you played in the events which followed after this meeting?

Let us start with the meeting, where was this meeting or meetings which you called?

MR NGWENGWA: The meetings used to be held at a place called Ndangeni at Polla Park. The residents used to know that place, that is where the meetings were held.

Will you please repeat your second question?

ADV SANDI: The appointment of Commander, you said you think it is Daniel Mbamba. Where and when did this happen?

MR NGWENGWA: The appointment of the Commander by the community of Polla Park at large, took place in 1990 in August, but I can't remember the exact date.

It took place at the usual place where the meetings were held. I think he is Davis Ndwangu. That is his name.

ADV SANDI: Did you work closely with the Committee of 7?

MR NGWENGWA: No.

ADV SANDI: Did you hear anything of the existence of such a Committee?

MR NGWENGWA: No, I did not hear anything about that.

ADV SANDI: When you convened those meetings, did you say to those who attended the meetings, we should go and get arms, ammunition, AK47's, etc at such a place? Did you make such suggestions?

MR NGWENGWA: I never suggested anything of that nature. As I have already told you that after addressing the people at a meeting, telling them to try and unite and protect themselves, there was another meeting that was convened, where a decision of appointing a Commander was reached.

The Commander that will deal directly with issues, he is the one who was dealing with these things in details, things that were pertaining to the fights and conflicts.

ADV SANDI: If we understand you correctly, your contribution at these meetings were simply confined to suggesting to people that if they were being attacked, they should defend themselves?

Is that all that you said at these meetings?

MR NGWENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Thank you sir. Thank you Mr Sibeko.

MR SIBEKO: Mr Ngwengwa, you also stated that as the Chairperson of the branch of the ANC, you could not suggest to the members of the meeting, or the members of the community, as to how should they defend themselves.

All that you said is that they should stand together and defend themselves? Did you at that time acknowledge that there could be the possibility that arms could be organised and acts of violence could be carried out in the form of defence?

MR NGWENGWA: Yes, I did anticipate that. That is why I didn't want to be associated directly as the Chairperson, because the organisation that I was serving, was actually - the policy was saying that we must not run away, even if the people are hitting us. But now if the people are told to protect themselves, because the people who are fighting the ANC people were having arms, and there was nothing else that they would think about, except having firearms.

MR SIBEKO: A member of the community and secondly a leader in that same community, one would really expect you to start by approaching the authorities, that is the South African Police at the time, or whoever was in charge of the law and order, to let them know about the problems that you were having at Polla Park. Did you do that sir, and if no, why?

MR NGWENGWA: I did that, when the people were being attacked, I would go to the police, but when this went on and on, and we later realised that these people who were attacking us, would come with police sometimes. There was no hope at all, entrusting the police. There was no need to trust the police, because the police would be involved whenever the Polla Park residents were being attacked.

I just decided to report the matter to the ANC region, to the leaders of the region so that they can be the people who would deal with the Commissioners, so that it should be known that the people were being attacked.

MR SIBEKO: You made several attempts to let the authorities know about your problem and as time went by, you lost confidence in the authorities and thereafter you decided to convene those meetings where you encouraged people to sort of mobilise and stand up against the violence?

MR NGWENGWA: Yes, that is correct. I started consulting the police, but when I lost confidence, I decided to come back and talk to the people.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Questions Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Questions by the panel?

ADV SANDI: Yes, thank you. Mr Ngwengwa, whilst you were Chairing those meetings, did any discussions take place regarding where and how to secure arms so that the community can be defended?

MR NGWENGWA: The discussions that I was involved in, the decision that was taken was that there would be another meeting that would be convened after that one, whereby a decision will be taken to appoint a Commander.

After that appointment of the Commander, the women were told to step aside so that men can go on because there was a Commander. I used to tell the people that the ANC organisation is actually encouraging negotiations but now, at a later stage, the people decided to take the opposite direction, by trying to protect themselves the other way.

That is where I was never involved in the other meetings that were taking place thereafter.

ADV SANDI: Your answer was very long Mr Ngwengwa, I am not sure if I followed you correctly. Is your answer to the question I was asking, is it your answer that you were not at any stage part of a meeting where it was discussed how to go about getting arms? Was that your answer?

MR NGWENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Did you at any stage in the course of the conflict between the community and members of the IFP, did you personally witness any attack or attacks on IFP members?

MR NGWENGWA: I was never involved in any attack against IFP, but at times, we would wake up during the night and hear gunshots and the people would be fighting. During those times, some means were devised to try and protect the community.

Men and women or even men who felt that they cannot stand for it, they wouldn't try and prevent the people from attacking us.

ADV SANDI: Did you do anything to prevent the police from apprehending those who were attacking members of the IFP?

MR NGWENGWA: I made that attempt, trying to negotiate with the police to try and protect or defend the people, though I can't remember the date, when the people were being attacked in the hostels, there was a rumour that there was an attempt for police who were actually taking the people from Mshayazafe hostel to Polla Park. That day I was talking to the police directly.

The police took these people from the Mshayazafe hostel and took them to the houses, and they were actually waiting for these people to go in and take their belongings and run away.

The people who survived or escaped, when they went out and reached, trying to reach for that police casper, the police casper was no longer there. That is when I lost confidence, because I could see that the police were not prepared to help the people further. That is why I made an attempt to go straight to the ANC region whenever there is a problem and to tell them that the police are not prepared to do anything.

Instead, they are having a greater contribution because these people who are doing these things, are not punished. If there is a fight, if there was a fight, the police would come and harass the people at Polla Park with teargas and searching their houses, and after ten minutes, the IFP would come and attack that people. That is when I lost confidence in the police.

Even the community of Polla Park had lost confidence in the police.

ADV SANDI: Just so sum it up Mr Ngwengwa, am I correct to think that you have applied for amnesty because you think or you believe that you were wrong to tell people to defend themselves when they were being attacked?

MR NGWENGWA: I made that application because of the reason that I have already mentioned. I am not certain if I made a mistake by telling the people to protect themselves. Only law could determine that, but I am doing that because if that was a mistake, then I be given amnesty.

If that was a mistake for me to tell the people to defend or protect themselves.

ADV SANDI: When you told people to defend or protect themselves, did you say the could even attack to so defend or protect themselves?

MR NGWENGWA: I don't understand the word attack. I think I would rather use the one of defending.

As they were being attacked, they were defending themselves. A person who is defending himself, can do anything. A person who is attacking, is a person who goes out of his way to go and attack the people, but in whatever I said to people, I did not mention anything about attacking, I just mentioned protecting or defending themselves.

ADV SANDI: You did not for example say you can hit first, before they attack you, because in doing so, you would be protecting yourselves? You didn't say that, did you?

MR NGWENGWA: I never mentioned anything like that. I cannot say it was never mentioned by the people who were involved, because after accomplishing my own mission, there are steps that were taken, including the appointment of the Commander, but when I was addressing the people, I never made mention of those things.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Ngwengwa, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ngwengwa, wasn't really what happened, that when you realised that the police were not really defending the community, you told them to fight back?

MR NGWENGWA: When I realised that the police were not assisting the people, I told them to fight for themselves. That is the truth. I told them to unite and to protect or defend themselves.

CHAIRPERSON: And then what happened is that in fighting back some of these attackers, were killed? Is that correct?

MR NGWENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Would we be understanding your application correctly, that you are not sure whether you have not perhaps done the wrong thing in having advised the people accordingly?

MR NGWENGWA: The reason for me to seek for amnesty, as a person who doesn't know much about law, though I can be sure that I was advising them about the right thing, it might happen that when you are paging through, according to law, what I did, was not right.

Though I think that it was right at the time, if what I did was wrong, according to law, that is why I am asking for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: If I understood your evidence correctly, you were agreeing with the steps that the community had taken to fight back. Would that be right?

MR NGWENGWA: Will you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Did I understand your evidence correctly that you then agreed with the steps that the community had taken in fighting back against these attackers?

MR NGWENGWA: I want to clarify this. When I am actually telling the people about the attempt, about them to try and unite, after that, the people convened another meeting and they appointed a person who would be their Commander and they did that, trying to protect themselves.

As a leader at Polla Park, when the people were protecting themselves and they were succeeding in doing that, that was actually making me happy. I was happy to see them, that at least if they are being attacked, they can stand up for themselves.

That does not mean that I actually initiated that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ngwengwa. Any re-examination Mr Sibeko?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Only a few aspects Mr Chairman. Sir, it is true that you advised the community members to stand up and defend themselves, is that correct?

MR NGWENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: In their defence of life and property at Polla Park, people were killed or injured from the side of the attackers, is that correct?

MR NGWENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And you went along or you agreed to the principle of the defence of the life and property of Polla Park, is that correct?

MR NGWENGWA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: We therefore agree that in defence of the life and property of Polla Park, lives were lost or limbs were injured from the side of the attackers, which you fully agree with, as it was perpetrated by the defenders of your community?

MR NGWENGWA: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Sibeko. Mr Ngwengwa, thank you very much, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Sibeko, who is the next applicant?

MR SIBEKO: The next applicant is that of Mr Davis Ndwangu. It appears on page 155, Lusaka B.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndwangu, good afternoon, can you hear me?

MR NDWANGU: Yes, I can hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: I want you to please stand and give your full names for the record.

MR NDWANGU: My name is Bhekindile Davis Ndwangu.

BHEKINDILE DAVIS NDWANGU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Please sit down Mr Ndwangu. Mr Sibeko?

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ndwangu, you are also an applicant applying for amnesty, is that correct?

MR NDWANGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: In front of me here, I have got your application on page 155, where your membership to any political organisation is referred to and you say you were a member of the ANC and then in 7(b) you state that you were a Commander of Polla Park Self Defence Unit, Maxembo groups, do you confirm that?

MR NDWANGU: Yes, I do confirm that.

MR SIBEKO: Do you further confirm the testimony of Mr Ngwengwa who testified that you were an elected Commander of the Self Defence Unit at Polla Park?

MR NDWANGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: My first question sir is, who elected you to such a position?

MR NDWANGU: The community of Polla Park, more than 10 000 men elected me.

MR SIBEKO: Your election to become a Commander of the Self Defence Unit, was necessitated by the attacks that were made on Polla Park by the IFP members or people from Kalanyoni, is that correct?

MR NDWANGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: From where did you receive your instructions or to which structure were you accountable to? Who did you account to?

MR NDWANGU: There was no structure. We would meet as men and plan and advise one another and get a solution as to how to get a solution to protect and defend ourselves against the attacks.

MR SIBEKO: From what year to which year were you a Commander of the Self Defence Unit, Polla Park?

MR NDWANGU: From the 18th of August 1990 and I left the position on the 21st of December 1990, when I was leaving for home.

I came back in 1993 after the 22nd of May.

MR SIBEKO: Your resumption of your position as a Commander in 1993, was also due to the fact that you were elected, is that what you say?

MR NDWANGU: It was not because of the first election, but it became clear from the community that they would prefer me taking that position again.

MR SIBEKO: Were you ever involved in acts of violence in 1990 at Polla Park, whether in defence or in attacking the attackers who attacked your community at Polla Park?

MR NDWANGU: I can say I was also involved because the fight was, the people were attacking us and I was the one in control of my soldiers and I would tell the people, I would deploy and give them instructions.

In that manner, I can say that I was involved.

MR SIBEKO: Do you have specific incidents where you would actually say you are somehow connected, or you are also part of the acts that occurred at or about that period?

MR NDWANGU: Even if I did not lift up my hand and kill a person with my own hand, but as the person who was controlling my soldiers, that people would die whenever there is a conflict.

People would die, therefore I can say that I was involved. Yes, I can actually point out some incidents where there would be some conflict and people would die. It was a real war.

MR SIBEKO: Proceed and tell us.

MR NDWANGU: I would request for permission from this panel to give me a turn to elaborate to give a picture, a background that led to me being a Commander. If you allow me that opportunity, I would like to let you know the fact that it was on the 12th of August 1990, the time was round about four o'clock in the afternoon.

I saw a group of people, a large group of people coming from the direction of the hostel, Kutuza hostel, Madala hostel, Mshayazafe hostel, those people were going down, moving from the direction of the hostel, going down Khumalo Road. That was quite a large number of people. They had some headbands and they were wearing some skins around their waists.

They were half naked, they had no shirts, they had no trousers on, they had knopkieries and things like spears. There was also, there were also some police caspers in front of them, and others were, it looked like they were escorting them, others were behind them.

Some of them had some firearms. They were not that far, we could see. Although we were afraid at first, we were scared of them, but we realised that they were not harmful, they were just walking down the road.

They were going straight to a hostel called Kalanyoni. They went into that hostel. Just after a short while, we saw people coming out of the hostel, they were jumping, taking the direction of the shacks at Polla Park.

Please give me the opportunity to tell you where was I stationed actually when I was looking at this. As I was looking at this, I was in Mr Nyati's van. I just came from the wholesale to buy some stock for my spaza shop and we just saw this thing and we ran and they ran into the hostel and came from another direction.

We were looking at them, we watched them until they reached the hostel. We managed to go through and get Polla Park after they got into the hostel. I delivered the stock. I think it was past six o'clock in the evening, and the other people were running out of the hostel, Kalanyoni hostel, going to the direction of Polla Park.

We were also waiting to see what was going to happen. There was a corner, a certain corner at the back of Kalanyoni hostel. We were standing there, a group of people. Amongst us there was Sam Ntuli, who was the Chairman of the Civic in Thokoza.

He was still trying to explain to us because we did not know what was going to happen next and hew as warning us to take note all the time. It looked like something was about to happen, because that large group, IFP group that was coming from the other hostels was in Kalanyoni.

When he was still busy telling us that, from another direction and there was an open space next to a (indistinct), the police came, four uniformed policemen came. As I was looking at these policemen who were actually facing us, but they were outside the hostel in the openings, a group of people came out of the hostel and they were shooting at us, as we were standing on the other side, and even the police themselves were facing us.

We were actually facing them too, we ran away because the police chased us away, but even those who were coming from the hostel, they came out and they started firing. We left our shacks and we went straight to the bridge as if we were facing Eden Park, this is when this whole thing started.

As from that day ...

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Ndwangu, can I ask you, did the police shoot at you at well at that point?

MR NDWANGU: Yes, they did. They shot at us. The only people that we were running away from, were the police.

ADV GCABASHE: But there were also people coming out of the hostel and shooting in your direction, so you had fire from two groups?

MR NDWANGU: I am trying to say even if it was one group of people shooting at us, but the police came from another direction. They did not come out of the hostel.

The police were coming from another direction. As from that day, on the 12th, there was no way for us to stay in our shacks, we were running away from our own homes and we were all over the place, trying to find a place to stay. Even the IFP people didn't stop chasing us away from our shacks.

Whenever we would get a rest, we would wake up early in the morning and rush to our shacks and we would hear them chanting inside the hostels. When we tried to get into our shacks early in the morning, at about five o'clock or half past four, we would see them coming to our shacks and they would chase away and we would be scattered all over and we would stay in the veld, that used to happen every day until the 18th, where we had to sit down and talk and discuss as the community.

As you heard Mr Ngwengwa talking about the meeting that was held at a place called Ndangeni. At that time I was appointed at a place behind the Polla Park shacks, just under the bridge, that is where the meeting of my appointment was held.

That was early in the morning, where men had gathered. After I was appointed, I want to tell you what I did. I did this, though I can't remember the date. I collected some men in the community, each and every man. No one had a firearm on that particular day, no one of us had a firearm.

I said to them, all of you, you know very well that IFP will come from that direction and come and attack us in our shacks every morning. Today at five o'clock, we have to surround their hostel, but we are not to get into the hostel. There was just a street between the shacks and the hostel, then I just decided that we should just surround the hostel in a way, but inside our shacks. They did so.

Each and every man had something like a weapon, whatever, though we did not have firearms, but there were some sort of weapons that would be used.

We sat there in our shacks and the IFP came out of the hostel. As usual, they came straight to us. There we were harassed by these IFP members, and we scattered around the veld and the police wouldn't accompany them when they were coming to us. Instead they would take the police caspers and deploy them on that other side. The police caspers would be there every day.

They did that as usual and when they came to our shacks and we just approached them also. I am not saying I had special weapon going straight to a specific person, but I was just actually alerting the people and the others had sharp objects, they attacked them, got into the hostel and we attacked them until they left their hostel and we even chased them, until they took a direction towards Thokoza Gardens.

Please allow me once more to tell you that even on that particular day, though I never hacked anyone with my own hands, but as the guys were not playing, people were dying. People were dying because we were not playing.

When the police in caspers saw that we were the people who were actually chasing the IFP, they came in large numbers and they shot at us in the hostel, up to the shacks. They were chasing us with their hippo's and others were running after us and we went to the nearest veld and they kept on shooting at us. That is the police.

On that particular day, the police were very much unhappy. They couldn't relax, they were all over Polla Park. Even though we were in the veld, they also wanted to come to us. That is what they were doing for that whole day, they were just moving around the place because they were unhappy.

If you - I want to tell you something else about the police. As I am saying that the Inkatha started on the 12th, at about six o'clock in the evening and in the afternoon at about three o'clock, it was on a Tuesday, on the 13th, we were trying to tiptoe and try to get something to eat in our shacks, we could hear them chanting inside and I think they were even dancing in their hostel.

There were also police caspers, a lot of police caspers next to our shacks. On our way to our shacks, there were some youth who were in front of me, and I was following them. In front of the police, there were IFP members who were there and they shot at us and two people were killed, and the police were laughing. We ran away and we tried to take the direction of the police, but we couldn't trust them, we took another direction.

As these Inkatha members were after us, the people were just laughing. They did nothing, but we managed to escape, those who escaped.

It became clear that this other group of people, Inkatha, had some police involved and we were waiting for the IFP to come and attack any time, and there were also rumours that the Inkatha was going to hit again.

I talked to other men and we agreed to ask for people who know more about firearms. We asked the Tsonga's. We asked the Tsonga guys who were staying with us and we don't even know where they were coming from, they used to come in white vans, loaded vans, and they also asked us to hire them to fight for us.

We couldn't trust them, because they would just disappear until such time that I can say we were hiring them, and they would bring the firearms in their vans and they would collect money from the community of men.

We would collect the money from the community and only men that were involved, but we couldn't trust the other Tsonga's, we had to talk to these that were in our community and we also asked them to sell the guns to us and even try and get people who would be able to operate the firearms.

It is because at the time in Polla Park, among the Xhosa's, no one was able to operate a firearm. That is how I got my own army, it is because of those Tsonga's who were communicating with other Tsonga's and they brought some firearms and with the money that we were collecting from the community, we managed to buy the arms. Those Tsonga's became my army.

MR SIBEKO: Right sir, this incident that you have just - as you stated that you were forced into fighting, and those attacks were launched, people died. Will I be correct to say that from your side, you inflicted injuries to the attackers and at the same time, there could be people who might have died from those who were attacking you?

MR NDWANGU: There is no doubt about that, there is no doubt about that because we were really fighting.

MR SIBEKO: Do you acknowledge that you also - okay before we go there, were you ever armed on that particular day with any form of weapon, be it a knife, firearm, were you armed?

MR NDWANGU: On what day?

MR SIBEKO: On the day when you chased your attackers from out of Polla Park to the hostel and from the hostel into Thokoza Gardens, that is the first incident that you referred to when you said you - they were stabbed and everything was used to ward off their attack?

MR NDWANGU: No, I had a knopkierie. My job was to monitor the situation and it is not that I was involved in attacking and fighting the people directly.

MR SIBEKO: You acknowledge that your conduct or your actions also contributed towards the death or the injuries of your attackers?

MR NDWANGU: Yes, I agree with that.

MR SIBEKO: And you are applying for amnesty with respect to that particular incident?

MR NDWANGU: Yes, that is correct. That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Right, having given us this background, is there any other incidents that you were also involved in?

MR NDWANGU: Yes, there are some incidents.

MR SIBEKO: Would you mind telling us about that incident?

MR NDWANGU: Yes. In 1990, in August, I think the date was the 23rd and the 24th. I think the 23rd was on a Tuesday and the 24th was on a Wednesday if I am not mistaken, when the Inkatha members came, not from Kalanyoni hostel this time, but from Mshayazafe and Kutuza and Madala hostel.

They came behind the brick firm, heading for Polla Park and they surrounded Polla Park from the direction of the brick firm, from Zola to Kayo to A and there was another road that was coming from Thokoza to Eden Park. They came with white people on that day. They were throwing some objects, that I don't even know what they were. They had this oval shape and they were throwing those things in our shacks and they managed to set alight the shacks behind.

Even on that particular day ...

ADV SANDI: Who was throwing this round things, was it the police together with the IFP people?

MR NDWANGU: As they were throwing these things, I cannot say some were not doing, because as they were doing this, they started by shooting, until such time that we had to run away and when we saw them at a distance, that they were throwing some things in the shacks.

MR SIBEKO: What happened thereafter sir? You say they started by shooting towards your direction and then thereafter threw these round sort of things, which burnt down your shacks.

By that time you had already run away. What did they do thereafter, that is the attackers, the IFP together with those white individuals or white people who were also there?

MR NDWANGU: As they started shooting, we ran away. They wanted to set our shacks alight, and I am sure they could have finished the whole block of shacks, if I did not issue an instruction.

Although they were throwing some things and there was a big fire, as they made that procession, we could see them because of the fire, the light coming from the fire. We came from another direction, a dark direction, from behind them and they were not looking at us, they were actually concentrating on what they were doing.

MR SIBEKO: Were you armed, that is yourself and your soldiers, and if so, what type of arms were you carrying?

MR NDWANGU: I am compared to tell the truth, we had arms at the time. We shot at them, we did not play.

MR SIBEKO: What kind of guns were you having?

MR NDWANGU: My soldiers had AK47 rifles, we shot at them and we made them to jump the fire that they made. Some of them did not manage to get out of the fire, they died in that fire. Some of them got scattered and others came straight to our direction.

I am the one that issued the instruction, because they were no longer concentrating on us now, they were busy setting our residence alight. I had issued instructions to shoot at them.

I want to tell you, I want to tell you the truth about this incident. When they started shooting from the very first time, on that particular day, I was actually facing these white people. These are the people who started shooting, and we had to run away.

Even when they were concentrating on burning down our shacks, and they were even prepared to finish up all the shacks without a disturbance, because the flame was so big, we could see that that was a white person and that was a black person. It is a sure case that they were boers there, coming from South Africa or from wherever, but I am certain that they were white people.

MR SIBEKO: The white people that you are talking about, were they clad in camouflage uniforms, that is army uniforms, Internal Stability uniforms, ordinary South African Police uniforms and what time was it, what time of the day did this occur?

MR NDWANGU: I don't want to lie, on that particular day, they were not in uniform on that particular day, they were in private clothes. They had hats on, they had their hats on but you could see them.

MR SIBEKO: What time of the day did this occur?

MR NDWANGU: I think they came to us between six and seven o'clock, it was not yet dark. When I got a proper view of them, it was dark but the flame from the fire, provided me with more clarity.

We could even see them throwing some articles towards us.

MR SIBEKO: Your testimony is that your soldiers were armed with AK47 rifles. Were you also armed sir, you?

MR NDWANGU: I had a pistol that had been given to me by the Shangaans or the Tsonga speaking people.

MR SIBEKO: On this particular day, that is the 23rd of August 1990, did you use your pistol, that is did you fire any shots out of your pistol?

MR NDWANGU: No, I never used the pistol.

MR SIBEKO: Will I be correct to say that you are applying for amnesty for such unlawful possession?

MR NDWANGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: You have already testified that now that your soldiers were armed with AK47's, you fired at them. Some of them died on the spot, some of them died as a result of the fire that your attackers had already started. Are you also applying for amnesty for such deaths or injuries that might have been caused?

MR NDWANGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: Is there anything that you want to add on this incident of the 23rd?

MR NDWANGU: I could say that that is about all. I would like to say that on that particular day, the place became small for them because we were actually closing in on them, but they were actually helped or rescued by the SADF, which came to the scene and that is when we left.

That was the end of the fight that day.

MR SIBEKO: And then the 24th?

MR NDWANGU: It is basically the same thing that happened on the 24th. They came very early, even on that day. The problem is that they used to launch their attacks unawares and at times we wouldn't be armed. They would just come and attacked unarmed and innocent people.

On this particular day, they came and set houses alight. They did basically the same thing that they had done the previous day. On this same day, I also commanded my soldiers to do the same, or to react in the same manner that they did the previous day.

On the 24th, it didn't take a long time for us to chase them out of the area. They had burnt quite a few shacks the previous day and the other shacks that were remaining, were not in the outskirts, they were in the centre or the middle of the area. They actually had to go into the area, deeper into the area in order to be able to burn down the remaining shacks, that is why we were able to catch up with them, before they could cause more destruction to the shacks.

MR SIBEKO: Now these people that you say died as a result of this, or on this particular day, were they - are you referring to your attackers or both, that is from your side and the side of the attackers?

MR NDWANGU: I am referring to the attackers. On the 24th, there was a certain man who goes by the name Sishumani. He didn't have any weapon with, but he was directly in front of me.

We were proceeding towards the burning shacks. As I approached, I saw a white man who was speaking to Sishumani, saying come Zulu, come - referring to Sishumani. The white man was edging Sishumani on to attack and Sishumani came and hacked this man with a panga.

At the time that he was hacking this white man with a panga, I left, trying to get a glimpse of what was happening on the other side. At that stage we were actually attacking the group of Inkatha with pangas and axes.

MR SIBEKO: Are you also seeking responsibility for the deaths or injuries that might have been incurred on this particular fight and that is why you are applying for amnesty?

MR NDWANGU: That is correct.

MR SIBEKO: We have covered the 23rd and the 24th of August. Do you have any other incident beyond this date, that is beyond the 23rd and 24th of August 1990?

MR NDWANGU: Yes, there is another incident. I don't remember the date, but I was approaching the hostel from the back, taking a shortcut to where I was heading. As I approached, I saw some policemen in their caspers. There were some people who were wearing Inkatha attire, (indistinct) and some red bandannas.

The policemen didn't move as I was approaching, but these men ran into the casper and they started shooting at random. I tried to duck for cover, using the hostel buildings.

I later reported the incident only to find out that there had been a lot of witnesses who witnessed this incident. I could also say I was one of the people who advocated for the destruction, the total destruction of the hostel, so that they could have nowhere to live.

We realised that it was a place that the enemies used to hide and later attack us. Then there was this incident which took place on the 11th of December, when Inkatha together with the police ...

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Ndwangu, December 1990?

MR NDWANGU: It was the 11th of December 1990. On this day we saw a row of kombi's, driving down towards Vereeniging and taking a turn towards Eden Park, towards Thokoza.

On that day we saw the row of kombi's, these kombi's were just following each other like train carriages. As we were still surprised as to what was happening, we saw a hippo casper, which was driving at high speed in Polla Park as if patrolling the area.

Immediately thereafter Inkatha, or a group of Inkatha members came into the area. On this day we were helped by the SADF, which actually managed to disperse the two groups because had the SADF not come, I think we would have been killed and our houses, or shacks, would have been burnt down, because they were shooting at random, they were attacking, we had absolutely nowhere to run.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Ndwangu, you say soldiers came, where were the soldiers coming from?

MR NDWANGU: When I say the soldiers, I do not notice or I have absolutely no knowledge as to where they were coming from, but they were dressed in military uniform. They also came and shot quite a few times, and that is when the people dispersed, or the groups as well as the taxi's, dispersed.

As to where they were coming from or what sort of soldiers they were, I cannot tell. They were dressed in military uniform, these are the people that actually helped us on that day.

MR SIBEKO: On that particular day, what you say is you never retaliated, or you were never pushed into a position where you took up your arms and defended your community, but you were helped or assisted by the appearance of those soldiers?

MR NDWANGU: Yes, that is correct. On that day we were absolutely powerless, because we were caught unawares and they could have killed us all, but they were not able to. I think the soldiers actually came just before they launched their attack, as well as the cars or the kombi's which drove into the area, sped off after the soldiers had fired a few shots.

But there were a number of people who got injured, that is the residents of Polla Park.

MR SIBEKO: Do you have any other incidents except the one that you have just told us about?

MR NDWANGU: Not that I know of, besides the fact that on the 21st of December I left the place, I went to the Eastern Cape. I left the pistol that I had, together with the other guns that we used, and I left the place.

MR SIBEKO: That was in December 1990, and when did you come back?

MR NDWANGU: I think I came back on the 19th, between the 18th and 19th of January the following year.

MR SIBEKO: Were there further acts of violence taking place in Thokoza in January 1992, is that what you are saying? When you came back, you left in December and then you came back in January, do you mean January 1992, when you came back?

MR NDWANGU: I think I made a mistake somewhere, when I left it was, I think it was in 1990 when I left. On the 21st of December 1990 I left and I came back during the 18th or the 19th of January 1991.

MR SIBEKO: When you came back, was your community still engulfed in the violence that was taking place?

MR NDWANGU: When I came back, the situation was still tense, it was still volatile.

MR SIBEKO: In 1991, were you involved in any acts of violence or were you still a Commander?

MR NDWANGU: When I came back from home during 1991, there was already a new Commander called Xeba. When I wanted to know more about the situation, I realised that he was some small time crook and I did not want to have any dealings with him.

I went to Ngwengwa to try and find out as to what happened during my absence. Ngwengwa told me that he also cut his ties with the rest of the group, after I had left, so he had no clarity because he told me that there was nothing constructive that happened in so far as fighting off Inkatha members was concerned.

It looked like now Xeba was conducting his own reign of terror now, he was no longer protecting the community. I went to live at 1156 Inhlapo Street in Thokoza and I didn't want to go back to Polla Park and its happenings.

MR SIBEKO: So from that period onwards, you were no longer involved in any acts of violence?

MR NDWANGU: I started again during 1993, I think it was after the 21st or the 22nd of May. There was a march from Polla Park to Alberton on that day.

When the marchers got next to the hostel, they were assaulted and tortured by Inkatha members. The Polla Park residents said or voiced their objections with regard to the leadership that they had at that time. They were complaining about their leaders, that their leaders were collaborating with some white policemen.

They requested me to come back and be their Commander once more. I went back, but I would like to explain to this Committee that at the time that I went back, that is in May during the year 1993, the Inkatha members who had conducted the march from Polla Park to Alberton, after having assaulted people at Polla Park, they did not stop there. They proceeded to the township in Thokoza.

As a result, the residents of Polla Park were able to get some breath of clean air. Besides that, I don't think there is anything important up until the 1994 elections.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Ndwangu, I am sorry, I have just lost you a bit. You said that on the 21st/22nd of May 1993, there was a march from Polla Park to Alberton. Was this a march by the Polla Park residents or by the IFP, I am a bit lost there?

MR NDWANGU: It was the people from Polla Park who were marching.

ADV GCABASHE: As they got near to the hostel, they were assaulted. Which hostel?

MR NDWANGU: As they were marching along the streets, or along Khumalo Street, they went passed several hostels which are in the same street, so they went passed quite a number of hostels, and that is where they were attacked, members of the ANC were attacked by Inkatha members and assaulted.

ADV GCABASHE: Oh, so it is during this march that the ANC people were assaulted? But I thought you also referred to IFP people marching, that was the last bit of your evidence, or did I not get you correctly?

MR NDWANGU: On this day, that is between the 21st and the 22nd, it was on a Saturday, the people from Polla Park were marching, whom I will refer to as members of the ANC, they were marching down Khumalo Street, going passed Madala hostel, Kutuza as well as Mshayazafe, that is where the Inkatha people came out and assaulted the Polla Park residents who were marching.

MR SIBEKO: You were no longer involved, you never issued any commands because the fight now was between the IFP supporters and the community of Thokoza? What happened to the arms that you were using in Polla Park?

MR NDWANGU: At the time that the members of Inkatha were residing at the hostel, they were no longer attacking the residents, there was relative calm and we took back all the ammunition, the arms and ammunition.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Steenkamp, any questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Panel, any questions?

ADV SANDI: Mr Ndwangu, the arms were returned to whom?

MR NDWANGU: Because I was working as a security guard, we collected the arms and ammunition and we came to a conclusion that we should take them back to the stadium where we were required to take the arms and ammunition, as well as unlicensed firearms and I was not present at that stage, when the guns were taken to the stadium, but I think the Commander's name was Keizer, I have forgotten his surname.

He was in charge of returning the guns to the stadium. As to who he handed the guns to, I have no clarity.

ADV SANDI: Thank you sir. Thank you Chair.

ADV GCABASHE: When you left for the Eastern Cape on the 21st of December 1990, where do you say did you leave your pistol?

MR NDWANGU: Firstly I would like to tell this Committee that even though I had already pointed out that I had my own soldiers, whenever my soldiers had to go on an operation, they would come to me, pick the guns up and go and conduct the operation, then come back, leave the guns with me. The guns had been returned to me and I left them, and went home.

Having reported that I was going back home, the Soldiers' Organisation, I reported to all those people that I was leaving.

ADV GCABASHE: These soldiers, you called them your soldiers and you have said to us that they were from the Shangaan community, were they voluntarily assisting you or did they have to be paid for what they were doing?

MR NDWANGU: I would like to put this in this way, there were some Shangaans who resided within the same area. Some would just come in and go, they would come to visit the other Shangaan community.

The soldiers that I am referring to, comprised those who resided in Polla Park and also the ones who used to come and visit the area, would also assist whenever we had problems and shortages of soldiers.

I think they were also conducting a business of their own, because we used to buy guns from them, and they would also organise at times. I realised that the Shangaan community would get together, even when I wasn't present. They would talk as to how the guns should be sold and delivered.

I suspected that was just my suspicion, not that I saw them congregating and discussing, but I did suspect that that was the case.

ADV GCABASHE: So essentially you are saying that you did not have to pay them in money for the assistance that they gave you?

MR NDWANGU: There was no money, for that. The money that was there, that had been collected was to purchase arms and give them to the ones who were conducting the operations.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Mr Ndwangu, thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination Mr Sibeko?

MR SIBEKO: No thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ndwangu. You are excused. We will adjourn the proceedings now until half past nine tomorrow morning.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I am sorry, there is just two or three matters I think that must be on the record, if I may be allowed.

The application of Tifu Dlamini, 7135/97 which was scheduled for today, it must be removed from the roll, he has withdrawn his application.

I am sure we can deal with this tomorrow morning.

CHAIRPERSON: We are adjourned.