AMNESTY HEARING

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MRS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chair. My first application is Bruno Skhosana. It appears in the small bundle, supplement one. The pages are not numbered, but it is page 8 if you count the pages, page number 8. Application number AM7180/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Skhosana, which language would you prefer to use?

MR SKHOSANA: Zulu.

BRUNO SKHOSANA: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Skhosana, you completed an amnesty application form. Was it on your own or were you assisted by somebody else?

MR SKHOSANA: I completed the form on my own.

MRS NHLAYISI: You were happy with the contents, the information that you gave in that form? Are you happy that that is what you wanted to complete?

MR SKHOSANA: Yes, I am satisfied.

MRS NHLAYISI: The form that I am showing to you right now, is this the form which you completed?

MR SKHOSANA: Yes.

MRS NHLAYISI: Do you confirm the contents thereof?

MR SKHOSANA: Yes, I do.

ADV GCABASHE: Ms Nhlayisi, does that include the ID number? Is that correct?

MRS NHLAYISI: Yes, the ID number is correct.

Mr Chair, the applicant is bringing an application for amnesty for the following, unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition and three counts of murder. The names of the victims are unknown.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the first one?

MRS NHLAYISI: Excuse me?

CHAIRPERSON: What was the first one?

MRS NHLAYISI: Unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition. Mr Skhosana, you were a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR SKHOSANA: Yes.

MRS NHLAYISI: When did you join?

MR SKHOSANA: In 1991 or 1992.

MRS NHLAYISI: For which Section were you a member?

MR SKHOSANA: Mlangeni Section, that is also called (indistinct)

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay, you indicated during our consultation that at a later stage, you were deployed in Slovo Section, is that correct?

MR SKHOSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MRS NHLAYISI: Who were your Commanders in these two Sections?

MR SKHOSANA: Mt Mlangeni Section it was Vusi Malinga, at Slovo it was Suzi, I do not know his surname.

MRS NHLAYISI: In your application form you indicated that you are applying for amnesty for killing three people. Just tell us about the first incident. When did it happen?

MR SKHOSANA: The first one took place in 1993, around September. I was at Mlangeni Section, I was coming from Slovo Section. When I was there, I heard gunshots at Slovo Section. I went back to Slovo Section.

When I arrived there, the other comrades were with this well known person who used to be seen during the fights between the IFP and ANC.

MRS NHLAYISI: Then what happened on your arrival there?

MR SKHOSANA: The other comrades had this person, he was captured by the other comrades. He was taken to Nhlapo Quntu. He was stabbed, he was also assaulted.

They told me that they were looking for me because they needed a spade, they were actually referring to an AK47. I had to go and fetch this AK47. When I arrived there, he was already shot with a pistol on his head. I realised that this person was already dying, therefore I decided to do nothing.

I left. On my way out of that house that belonged to Khumalo in Tokoza, comrade Bkeki came and he told me that this person was trying to wake up. I went back and I saw him trying to hold on the fence and I shot at him. I shot him at the back.

I shot him behind his head, just on the neck. I saw him falling. I came closer and I shot him on the head and he was quiet after that. I left the scene.

MRS NHLAYISI: You mentioned earlier that this person was known to be an IFP member. What information did you have to confirm that this person was an IFP member?

MR SKHOSANA: As we were fighting with the IFP members, when they used to appear from their site, shooting at our direction, I used to see this person. I knew him, he would appear and shoot at us.

He had an R4 rifle. He would come and shoot, directing at us, and we used to identify him with his red head band, that is why I was sure that that was the person, because I used to see him closer as he would be shooting next to Buthelezi Street.

MRS NHLAYISI: On this particular day, did he have the red head band?

MR SKHOSANA: When I arrived, the band was not on his head, but the comrades had this red head band.

MRS NHLAYISI: So you said you knew this person, you saw him on previous occasions, but you do not know his name, is that correct?

MR SKHOSANA: Yes, I did not know his name.

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay. Can you remember who were present when this incident happened, your fellow comrades?

MR SKHOSANA: Comrade Bayo and Mzwake. I cannot remember the others, those are the only two people that I can remember.

MRS NHLAYISI: The second incident, where did it take place?

MR SKHOSANA: That took place at Nhlapo Street. We were patrolling there. A boy of about 18 years old, appeared and he came closer and we were watching him. He turned, he took a turn at Buthelezi Street and we went straight to him and we captured him, and we questioned him.

We wanted to know what it was that he was looking for, because he was coming from the other side. He said he was there, his brother brought him there, because there was a job for him, this job that was to be done at Buyafuthi. He said there was a firm or a factory that was at Buyafuthi.

We captured this boy and we searched him. In his hand, he had a piece of paper with the medicine inside and in his pocket, he had some small bottles containing muti. We took him, we said we are going to show him where Buyafuthi was. We took him down Gubeni Street and I was the one who was holding him. I questioned him further and I asked him what is it that he knows about this particular firm. He said he was not certain or he was not sure what was happening there, but I told him that the firm, the factory that he was talking about, it was the place where they were killing the people, because that was a well known rumour that the people from Buyafuthi were fetching people to kill.

They were taking people to kill and I asked for a cigarette from Bizo and I instructed him to hold this young man. I handed over this young boy to Bayo when I was trying to lick my cigarette. I was this young boy running away, he escaped from Bayo's hands and he ran away.

Bizo had an AK47. I grabbed that AK47 from Bizo, I knelt down and when he was about to take a corner, I shot him. We ran after him and he was already falling. I shot him on the head.

When I left there, I went back to Nhlapo Street. I don't know what happened thereafter. I later realised that he died. The other comrade decided to set him alight.

MRS NHLAYISI: So the fact that this person said to you that he was looking for the hostel Buyafuthi and he has been promised a job there, what impression did you get?

MR SKHOSANA: What came to my mind was this, this person was there, he was on his way to Buyafuthi to kill because during those times, people would be fetched from kwaZulu Natal to the hostels and those people would kill people.

MRS NHLAYISI: After you shot him, you said you left. When you left, was he already dead? Did you notice whether he was dead or not?

MR SKHOSANA: When I left that scene after shooting him, I saw that he couldn't survive, because I shot him right in the head and the way he was bleeding, to me that was a sign that he was going to die. Therefore I left the scene.

MRS NHLAYISI: You said you also used an AK47 on this particular incident, is that correct?

MR SKHOSANA: Yes, that is true.

MRS NHLAYISI: The third incident, where did it happen?

MR SKHOSANA: We were patrolling with the other comrades at Slovo Section. There was a place that was declared a no-go zone after Buthelezi Street.

This woman came from another direction. We were at Khumalo Street and then she came down Mdagani Street. We had information previously that there was a person who was coming down the street, and we should monitor that particular person.

When she came, she came down Buthelezi and she went up once again.

MRS NHLAYISI: You said you got information that there was a person that you should monitor. From who did you get this particular information?

MR SKHOSANA: There were comrades who were stationed at Mdagani Street and they sent a boy to come and tell us that there was a person that was coming down Mdagani Street, who was about to take a turn at that particular point.

We waited for her and she went, she took a turn. She went up to the upper direction. We decided to take a chance and walk through the no-go area to see where this person was actually going to.

When we did that, going to that no-go area, when we were about to reach Khumalo Street, we took cover in another house. We saw this person. There was a group of Inkatha members with AK47's. She talked to them and we saw her talking to these IFP members with AK47's.

We saw these people pointing towards Mdagani Street as if they were going to walk down Mdagani Street, and to Buthelezi Street. When she took another turn, we saw these people jumping over to Mdagani Street.

MRS NHLAYISI: Then what happened thereafter?

ADV GCABASHE: You saw them pointing towards Mdagani Street and they entered Mdagani Street, is that where you were? Is that correct?

MR SKHOSANA: Yes, we were in Mdagani Street, in one of the circles. Mdagani Street was facing Khumalo and when we saw them, they came from the third house from where we were.

When we went in there, we went back to Buthelezi Street.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry, did they then enter Mdagani Street, these people?

MR SKHOSANA: Yes, they went through Mdagani Street and they went towards another direction.

MRS NHLAYISI: Where did this woman go?

MR SKHOSANA: She took a turn, she went through Khumalo Street, to Buthelezi Street. When she arrived next to Buthelezi, we were on the other side and prevented her from going further because we told them, we had told the other people that the woman was coming from those people who were our enemies.

They captured her and we took her to Nhlapo Street and we questioned her. She said she was looking for a church, Masango Church, Apostolic Church, the St John's Apostolic Church and we promised her that we were going to direct her to the church, but we raised our suspicions but we decided to direct, to give her directions to Masango. We took her to Ngubeni Street and we directed her to go through Mavimbela Street and then we told her that when she reaches Mavimbela, she has to ask some people that would show her to the place.

We decided that another group of people must go straight and check if this woman was really getting to this St John's Apostolic Church. We decided to wait at a second house and we waited for these people to give us information about this woman.

When she was about to reach the veld in front of the furrow, she took a turn again, she went towards Mapanzela School and now it looked like she was going to this group of people.

She was facing the Dube Street where the Inkatha people were staying. She took another turn, going towards that direction and we decided to get out of that second house. Basdi had a 7.65 pistol. I grabbed that firearm and I went straight to this woman and she ran away.

I called her and when she looked back, she saw us and she ran away. In that process I shot her from behind. She fell. I came closer and I shot her for the second time. I shot her on the head and I left the scene.

MRS NHLAYISI: Okay, the fact that you saw this woman coming from the no-go area and the fact that you saw her talking to IFP people, what impression did that make in your mind?

MR SKHOSANA: What came to my mind at that particular time, because we were watching her, we wanted to know what was happening, and when we found her talking to these people, and these people now were telling her where to go and they were going to take another direction, I told myself that this woman was a spy and she was sent down to check the situation and our base where we were.

MRS NHLAYISI: In your application form, you mentioned on page 3 that all these people were killed and then burnt. Were you present when the bodies were burnt?

MR SKHOSANA: The other two people, the first one and - the males, the first one and the second one, when their bodies were set alight, I was not present, but this woman, after deciding to go back to Ngubeni Street, I met with the other comrades who had petrol and I went back to the scene and I saw them pouring petrol over her body and they set her alight. I did not participate in setting her alight, I just stood there and watched them setting her body alight.

MRS NHLAYISI: The last victim, you also do not know her name and particulars, is that correct?

MR SKHOSANA: No, I know nothing about her.

MRS NHLAYISI: Who were present when this incident took place, your fellow comrades? Can you remember who was there?

MR SKHOSANA: I remember that Mqunu was there, Basdi was also there and I cannot remember the other people who were there.

MRS NHLAYISI: In our consultation you also mentioned Nkosana, is that correct?

MR SKHOSANA: Nkosana is the one who is also called Basdi.

MRS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have nothing further.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you sir.

MR SIBANYONI: In your application you also mention that Mpegeleli and Nqedesi were also there. Is that correct?

MR SKHOSANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: I am referring now to the boy you met who said he was going to Buyafuthi. If he was not connected to the IFP, was it possible for him to stay at Buyafuthi Hostel?

MR SKHOSANA: No ways, that was not possible for him to be there, because during the violence, the only people who would stay at Buyafuthi was the IFP members. The people from the township wouldn't set their foot at Buyafuthi Hostel.

MR SIBANYONI: Where did he say he came from, where was his home?

MR SKHOSANA: He said he was coming from kwaZulu Natal, Inhandla.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair. The same incident, the chap from Inhandla, where was he stabbed and assaulted, in Nhlapo Street or Nhlapo Section?

MR SKHOSANA: He was not stabbed, he was shot. The only one who was stabbed, was the one that used to be among the Inkatha members during the fight.

ADV GCABASHE: Oh, I beg your pardon, you are quite right. It is the first incident I am looking at. The chap who had been captured by the time you got there, that is the one i am talking about. Where was it, at Nhlapo Section or Nhlapo Street?

MR SKHOSANA: Nhlapo Street.

ADV GCABASHE: Street? In respect of the chap from Inhandla this time, were you saying it was Bayo you were with, I was not sure of the name, was it Bayo? You were with Bayo?

MR SKHOSANA: Bayo, yes.

ADV GCABASHE: Okay, and then the last one is the woman, Mdagani Street and Buthelezi Street are very close?

MR SKHOSANA: Yes, they are close. They are in the form of a T-junction, Mdagani is going through.

ADV GCABASHE: Okay, then that solves my problem there. Just give me a minute, and then finally the same woman, when they set her body light, was she still alive?

MR SKHOSANA: No, she was already dead.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.

MRS NHLAYISI: Thank you Mr Chair, that concludes my roll.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, Mr Sibeko will be taking over from Ms Nhlayisi.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR SIBEKO: Mr Chairman, the next applicant is Mr Thambiso Zakwe. His application appears on page 211 to 217, under application number AM7312/97.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Zakwe, what language would you prefer to use?

MR ZAKWE: Zulu.

THAMBISO ZAKWE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR SIBEKO: Mr Zakwe, do you confirm the ID number that appears on your application, to be the correct one?

MR ZAKWE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Do you further confirm that the application that appears on page 211, is your application?

MR ZAKWE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Did you complete the application form yourself, or somebody else did it on your behalf?

MR ZAKWE: (No translation)

MR SIBEKO: So you are satisfied with the contents of your application?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, I do.

MR SIBEKO: You are satisfied that the contents of this application is the true reflection of your application?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, I am satisfied.

MR SIBEKO: Sir, were you a member of the Self Defence Unit at any stage?

MR ZAKWE: Yes.

MR SIBEKO: Whereabout?

MR ZAKWE: At Sebokeng.

MR SIBEKO: When did you join the Unit?

MR ZAKWE: In 1990.

MR SIBEKO: Who was your Commander?

MR ZAKWE: When I joined the Unit, there was no Commander. I was told to establish the Unit and I was given a position of a Commissar of the Unit.

MR SIBEKO: In other words you were a Commissar of the Unit? Were you a member of any other political organisation at the time?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, I was. I was a member of the ANC Youth League as an Education Officer. I was also a Deputy President of COSAS, that is now known as Gauteng Province.

MR SIBEKO: Right. Will I be correct to say that you are applying for an act or murder and unlawful possession of firearms?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: On page 212, paragraph 9 it deals about the said act of murder and the date that is reflected here is January 1993, do you confirm the date to be the date when you killed that person?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, that is the right date, the correct date.

MR SIBEKO: Are you in a position to say exactly who the person is, the person that you killed?

MR ZAKWE: The name was Joseph Skosana Dlamini.

MR SIBEKO: Do you mind giving us the details of the said act of murder?

MR ZAKWE: It was January 1993, I cannot remember the date. It was the first week of January in 1993. The youth from Sebokeng came, that is where the deceased was residing. The youth came to me, they approached me, they were very angry because of some activities that were taking place, that had been taking place for a very long time and the deceased was known as an ANC member of which I was also a member of the same organisation. I was also one of the people who were in the leadership of the ANC Youth League.

They came to me and they were very angry. Some of them were armed with different weapons and firearms.

They explained to me that they were looking for the deceased, because all the things that had taken place, we were quiet as leaders of the Youth, we were quiet, because of the things that were done by the deceased.

When I looked at the situation, I tried to calm them down, I tried to show them that the leaders had taken a position that they were going to deal with that particular person. I told them to leave everything to me.

After a certain number of days, we would go back to them and give them a report,but because of the fact that they were very angry, they refused to listen to that story. They wanted to take the law into their own hands without the leaders.

I tried as much as I could, to convince them to leave the matter with the leaders. They later agreed. They gave me a deadline that if nothing happened, they would do everything themselves, because that would show that we had failed as the leaders, the leaders of the ANC Youth League in that region.

I told them to go away and I promised them that I would come back and give them a report. I told them to be at the office the following day at about twelve o'clock, midday. I parted with them, that was in the evening at about six o'clock.

They were not satisfied though, they kept on complaining. After discussing that matter with the Executive of the ANC Youth League, I decided that something should be done with the deceased.

We had to devise some means to eliminate him so as to end all the problems that we had in the township. Late in the evening, I took an AK47 rifle, I started looking for the deceased. I went straight to the place. The deceased died at a place, at a tavern called Culture Club. I realised that he was there in that tavern and I even asked the people who were with him. He was with five people in his company and the other people who had just visited the place, the tavern that is.

The deceased went out of the house. I shot at him. I don't know how many times did I fire, but I shot him and he died on the scene. I went back home. The following day, we met with ...

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know the name of that deceased?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, his name is Joseph Skosana Dlamini.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, it is that one that you saw in ...

MR ZAKWE: Yes. The following day in the morning, let me explain this, I left him outside the tavern. The following day he was found in his home and he was, his body was burnt and the community was there and even his home was burnt down. On that particular day I had a meeting with the youth at twelve o'clock midnight, in the offices of the ANC Youth League at Zone 12.

I asked the youth to go and search for the friends of the deceased, to come and discuss with us and discuss what was going to happen thereafter, because we were afraid that there would be a fight, a war at Zone 12.

Those people who were Skosana's friends, came and we discussed and we requested them to hand over the firearms to the ANC and they should ask for an apology in the community, with regard to all their activities.

That happened. After that, there were no bad incidents in the area. There was peace in the community.

MR SIBEKO: Right, your evidence is that the deceased was also a member of the African National Congress and also a member of the - in fact, let me ask you, he was a member of the ANC, was he also a member of the Self Defence Unit?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, he was a member of SDU.

MR SIBEKO: There were things that he was doing to the community, in fact he was harassing the community. Would you briefly tell us what exactly did he do. Do not narrate everything that you know, but briefly?

MR ZAKWE: He was involved in a lot of activities. I can mention some of them. He participated in the killing of the Zwane family at Zone 12, he also played a role in the killing of the comrades and one of the comrades was Daddy Keswa, who was a member of Umkhonto weSizwe. He left the township to stay somewhere else.

When he came back, Skosana, that is the deceased, said he heard that Daddy Keswa was working with the police where he was, so he killed him on that particular day when Daddy Keswa arrived. He was also involved in the rape incidents. He was also involved in the shootings.

MR SIBEKO: All right, what you are saying in essence is, he was using the arm that was meant to defend the community, instead he was harassing the same community with the said arm?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBEKO: And as a result, the community was complaining to the leadership of the ANC, including yourself, that your member is not actually doing what he was supposed to do, as a result you had to take a resolution or a decision to deal with him accordingly, is that what you are saying?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, that is what I am saying. I would like to explain further. The situation had been going on for quite some time, because the deceased started this mid 1992. The worst incident was when he killed the Zwane family and the mother in that family was working hand in hand with the comrade.

She was also a member of the ANC Women's League and there was a suspicion that she was selling out some comrades to the police. That went on and on. In 1993, he killed a girl who was 14 years old, and when he was questioned about this, he said he was testing the firearm.

Besides that, he was involved in many things and the ANC leadership was silent about these things, but we were aware of the things that he was doing. I tried at some stage to approach him and discuss with him about the other activities that he was involved in.

Among other things, the last incident where he killed this girl, I told him that if he was actually testing a firearm, he wouldn't do that in the presence of the people. We had a quarrel and he promised me that I will not survive and see up to the end of 1993. It looked like I was the only person who was able to reprimand him about his activities.

He showed me, he said I was a person who was talking too much, and he told me that I wouldn't live to the end of 1993. That means that the leadership of the ANC was silent about his activities.

It is not that all of the people were afraid of him, but they were scared of him, and they wouldn't even mention his name.

MR SIBEKO: The unlawful possession of arms, will I be understanding you correctly if I say you possessed arms or you had arms when you say you established the Self Defence Unit? Were you the one who was responsible to get firearms?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, I was the one. I was given a mandate by the Executive of the Youth League at the time. After there was a fight or a squabble between the comrades at a night vigil at Sebokeng, I was given the mandate to collect the firearms and see who were the people that I can use as SDU members and work with them.

That was my responsibility to ensure that there were arms and the people who would be trained as the Self Defence Unit in the area at Sebokeng.

MR SIBEKO: Do you know what ultimately happened to those arms that you organised and supplied to the members that you recruited?

MR ZAKWE: The firearms that were there after being collected from the other Units, we took them because they were not doing what they were supposed to do, we took them to the ANC Youth League and the others were given to the MK members in the area, and after some time, some of them were confiscated by police and the people were arrested with those arms.

MR SIBEKO: After you have, or after the killing of the deceased, was the matter reported to the Executive, and if so, when?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, after the killing of the deceased, the following day, as I had already planned a meeting with the youth who wanted to take the law into their own hands, on that particular day of the killing, there was a meeting at about twelve midday and the Executive members were called and some members of the community were called and even the Civil Organisation members were there, the ANC members were there and the other people who were victims of the deceased, they came and they attended the meeting.

We shook hands and we discussed the procedure that was going to be followed as from that particular day. Even the Units, the SDU who were seen to be problematic, we devised some means as to how to deal with them. The Executive agreed to the decisions that we had taken.

MR SIBEKO: The Executive that gave you the task to establish the Unit, is it the same Executive that discussed the elimination of the deceased?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, some of the members were present since 1990. They were still there in 1992 and 1993, though the others were not there, but as we were discussing the elimination, we had new members as well as the old members.

MR SIBEKO: When you reported back, what was the attitude of the Executive, did they ratify and adopt your action or did they associate themselves with your action?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, the Executive - not only the Executive, but the community, the majority of the community were for the idea. They were not against it.

After that, everyone would live free and people would move free. People would do anything freely.

MR SIBEKO: If you were to be given an opportunity to meet the family members of the deceased, would you seize that opportunity and make peace with them in connection with the killing of the deceased?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, I would appreciate that. From the family of the deceased, I was known and he was also well known in my family or relatives.

I wanted this thing to, I would like us to forget about this thing, and I would like them to forgive me and carry on with my life and they carry on with their lives.

MR SIBEKO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I don't have further questions for the applicant.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no questions Mr Chairman.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Chair. Mr Zakwe, a couple of questions, just clarify for me. You know the first meeting that you had with the comrades, they came to complain to you about the actions of Skosana, you then said to us that you said to them that they should come back to you the following day, you, as part of the Executive team, would decide on the course of action, am I right so far? This is what you said?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, that is what I said.

ADV GCABASHE: Now, you discussed this matter with the ANC Youth League Executive the next day, did you as the ANC Youth League, decide that Skosana should be killed or did you as an individual, on your own, decide that? Just clarify that for me?

MR ZAKWE: The decision was taken by the ANC Youth League.

ADV GCABASHE: Then we get to the report back meeting that you have just testified to, where the community was present, the SDUs were present, where Skosana's friends essentially apologise to the community and where essentially, peace was brokered between Skosana's friends and the rest of the community, you are with me?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, I am with you.

ADV GCABASHE: You were asked if the Executive endorsed, essentially the correctness of the decision to kill Skosana. Which Executive, I am just a bit confused about whether this was a different Executive or the same Executive that had originally taken this decision, the ANC Youth League? Just help me with that?

MR ZAKWE: The Executive that was there since 1992 to 1993.

ADV GCABASHE: Was this the ANC Youth League Executive?

MR ZAKWE: Yes, ANC.

ADV GCABASHE: ANC, not ANC Youth League?

MR ZAKWE: It was the ANC Youth League.

ADV GCABASHE: Now again, I am still not clear, can I just start again. The decision was taken in the first place by the ANC Youth League Executive, then the man was killed?

Then there was a peace brokered at a report back meeting and you were asked if they had attended, I beg your pardon, you were asked if they had been informed of the decision, if they had ratified it and associated themselves with what they had done, the Executive.

I am just asking, which Executive was this, it wasn't clarified in the question and I am wondering if it was the same Executive that we talked about before Skosana was killed, or is this a larger, different Executive? Do you understand my confusion?

MR ZAKWE: I understand your question. That was the Executive, the ANC Youth League Executive.

CHAIRPERSON: Why was it necessary for the ANC Youth League Executive to approve of what they had already decided? It doesn't make sense.

MR ZAKWE: Chairperson, the ANC Youth League had taken a decision and its own Executive, that was done previously, after Skosana was killed, there were other organisations and the people from the community and the other members of the SDU, it was necessary for explanation, clear explanation that it was a decision of ANC Youth League that was the decision that was taken previously.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to clarify this then, all you have to do is say yes or no. As I understand it then, the initial decision was taken by the Executive of the ANC Youth League of the area. When that decision was executed, a report back to the broader community, including the ANC Youth League, was done where approval was given to that decision and the execution, do I understand you correctly?

MR ZAKWE: I would request you to repeat your question sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Initially before Dlamini was killed, that decision to kill him, was taken by the ANC Youth League Executive Committee. When Dlamini was killed, it was necessary to report back on the issue and the peace that was brokered, etc.

This was done to a broader forum, including the community and that very ANC Youth League Executive committee. Do I understand it correctly? There it was approved?

MR ZAKWE: It was approved, because it was said to be something that was supposed to happen.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't want to know the reasons why it was approved, I just want to know whether it was approved there at the meeting of the broader community?

MR ZAKWE: Will you please make your question shorter sir, instead of mentioning a statement. Now I become confused which answer should I give.

CHAIRPERSON: Why are you confused, what is the confusing part?

MR ZAKWE: Chairperson, I explained that the decision after the death of Skosana, there was a general agreement and the Youth League was explaining to the other SDU members and the Civic ANC members and other members of the community that were present there, and it was - the explanation was given that the decision was taken by the ANC Youth League and the reasons were furnished.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand yes.

MR ZAKWE: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. You are excused.

MR ZAKWE: Thank you Chairperson.

MR SIBEKO: May I also be excused Mr Chairman.

ADV STEENKAMP: The matter of Mr Selepe, which is standing down.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes Mr Chairman, there is another matter on the role, Mngomezulu McDonald, it is AM7321. I am just confirming the position of that applicant Mr Chairman. Apparently that matter will have to be withdrawn from the roll.

I am not quite sure whether this person is in custody or what is his position. He hasn't turned up at all of the last two weeks. Mr Chairman, I would suggest if it is possible, maybe if it is possible, this is a time to adjourn for tea for a minute.

CHAIRPERSON: How long are we going to take?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------ADV STEENKAMP: We can proceed then with Mr Selepe Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Can we proceed with Selepe?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes, we can proceed with Mr Selepe, Mr Chairman.

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: (still under oath)

MR MASHABANE: This is an application which was stood down on Tuesday last week, due to the fact that the applicant's legal representative withdrew, and now the application is made before this Committee with the applicant having acquired another legal representative.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you put your name on record for the purposes of the record please?

MR MASHABANE: I beg your pardon?

CHAIRPERSON: We need you to identify yourself on the record, so that those who type the record can know whose voice they are typing.

MR MASHABANE: My full names sir, Xawe Roland Mashabane, Advocate of the Johannesburg Society of Advocates, and I am standing for the applicant.

The applicant appears on the bundle from page 118 to page 124. The application was stood down last week, Tuesday, because there was a misunderstanding between the applicant himself and his legal representative. That is the question I would love to address before this Committee and I would ...

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mashabane, you don't have to address us on the reasons for the Attorney having to withdraw. As long as you are satisfied with the ethical position, then you can proceed with the application.

MR MASHABANE: Thank you Mr Chairman. The applicant's full names are ...

CHAIRPERSON: We've got that.

EXAMINATION BY MR MASHABANE: Oh, thank you. Is it true that you are the applicant in this matter?

MR SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MASHABANE: Can you look at the documents being shown to you right now, and more particularly page 123, is that that appears on page 124, your signature?

MR SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.

MR MASHABANE: When did you attach this signature?

MR SELEPE: I signed at the Boksburg prison, I cannot remember when, but I was in prison at the time, that is my signature.

MR MASHABANE: Who came with the form and asked you to attach your signature?

MR SELEPE: The form was brought by comrade Duma Nkosi and another Truth Commission official.

CHAIRPERSON: Now look when we last stopped last week, you were busy explaining to us how you had to go and acquire firearms and how you acquired possession of those firearms and what happened afterwards, do you recall? Can you recall that?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Now explain to us from when you were going back with the firearms, what happened. Maybe you must start with what you are applying for, first. What offences are you applying for?

MR SELEPE: The offences are as follows: robbery at Kliprivier police station, that is the first one.

ADV GCABASHE: Sorry Mr Selepe, where you can, also give us the dates, then we know which incidents. Even if it is the year, just so that we can separate the incidents.

MR SELEPE: I am going to ask for assistance from my legal representative, because I cannot remember all of them. In 1993 the robbery at Kliprivier police station. The second one, is the murder of Glen Thompson and attempted murder of Mr Sidney Gehlig and the next one is participation in the robbery of a bakkie of Mr Shadrack Tshabalala.

CHAIRPERSON: Attempted robbery or robbery?

MR SELEPE: Robbery of a Nissan bakkie off Mr Tshabalala. The next incident is participating in the robbery of firearms and cash from Mr Nana.

The other one is the attempted murder of two policemen, Immanuel Mashishi and Mr Boshoff. The next one, robbing of Mr Johannes' Cressida and robbing Mr Johan Konig, firearm robbery, who was employed by a certain security company on the 28th of August in 1992.

The next two incidents, the escapes that took place in 1993 and another escape took place in 1994. That is all. There is another robbery of Mr Mishack's car in 1992 on the 9th month of 1992, on the 27th.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr whose car?

MR SELEPE: Mr Mishack, Tim Mishack, Sipura Tim Mishack.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MASHABANE: When you participated or committed all these offences, did you belong to any political organisation or liberation movement?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I was a Commander of SDU of Tambo in Slovo Section, I was a Chairman of the Civic Association and the Media Officer of the ANC Youth League.

MR MASHABANE: What were your duties as a Media Officer of the ANC, as a member of the SDU?

MR SELEPE: As a Media Officer in the ANC Youth League, my duties were - I was at the Publicity Desk of the youth matters, and I was a Commander of the SDU.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on) Which of these offences that you referred to, occurred first? Which was the first one that you committed?

MR SELEPE: The first offence according to these dates, I want to check, I would request to be given a chance to check the dates.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't know if it is important for the purpose of the questions, that you remember dates. What I want you to do is relate how and why these offences occurred in chronological order, as far as you can. Do you understand?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I do understand. The first incident is the one that took place on the 28th, robbing Mr Johan Konig.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes?

MR SELEPE: When we robbed Mr Konig, as the member of the SDU, we were running short of weapons. I got information from one comrade called Lucky Mampuru that there were security guards that were escorting the cars from the firms, on Fridays.

ADV GCABASHE: Just don't talk too fast, take it slower. Thank you.

MR SELEPE: I was told that there were security guards that were escorting the cars from the firms. Those security guards had the firearms that we were looking for.

We organised a car that we would use as our transport to go and disarm those security guards. The car that we were going to use, it was difficult for us to use a car that would be traceable. We decided that we should first rob a company car because we knew very well that a company car, after using it, we would just abandon it anywhere where it would be found by police.

MR MASHABANE: Why specifically to use company cars?

MR SELEPE: At that time, we did not want to use ordinary cars, cars belonging to the people or comrades or parents or it is very simple that if ...

CHAIRPERSON: It could easily (indistinct), isn't it so?

MR SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Where did you get this motor car that you decided to rob?

MR SELEPE: We went to Alrode, that is an industrial site. When we arrived there, it was during the day, we saw this car getting out of the firm, escorting a certain car that was driving in front. We used the same car that we were driving, and we prevented this car from moving further.

The people alighted from the vehicle and we also alighted and we pointed guns at them, and we searched them as we were told that we would find firearms. We found those firearms, and in this car, there was a bag, we could not see this other firearm. We took that bag. We went back to the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose car is it, or was it?

MR SELEPE: The car that we were using was the car that was robbed from Mr Mampuru.

CHAIRPERSON: And the one you robbed, who did that belong to?

MR SELEPE: That was a car that belonged to the security guards.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one of those is that offence referred to in this list you gave us?

MR SELEPE: According to my documents, it is referred to as, it took place on the 28th when Mr Johan Konig was robbed.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR SELEPE: When we were about to get into the car, we thought that the firearm was in the bag, we saw the other security officer getting out of that car with a firearm. I fired in the air only once, because I wanted to prevent him from shooting us.

We left the scene. We did not bring that car to the township, we abandoned it at Alrode, next to the place where we had taken the car and we walked to the township.

MR MASHABANE: On that day, were there any people killed or injured?

MR SELEPE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: I can't understand this then. The purpose for robbing that car, you use Konig's car to go and rob the security guard's, is that so?

MR SELEPE: We used Mr Mampuru's car to rob the firearms from Mr Konig.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR SELEPE: We abandoned the car next to the firms there in Alrode.

CHAIRPERSON: Is the robbing of that car that you used to go and rob Mr Konig, a matter for which you apply for amnesty?

MR SELEPE: That is also included in the incidents.

CHAIRPERSON: Which one is that?

MR SELEPE: The robbing of Mr Mampuru's motor vehicle.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, that is what I meant by wanting you to refer to these offences in chronological order because you have dealt with this robbing of Mr Konig's firearms when you used Mr Sipura's motor vehicle to do so. You had to do the one before the other, do you understand?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: That is why I wanted you to do it in order. Do you understand?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: When was Mr Sipura's motor vehicle robbed?

MR SELEPE: Mr Sipura's car was robbed a day before, that was on the 27th.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, now it makes sense. Can you tell us about the offence that occurred, or let me ask you, you say you needed these firearms from which you robbed Mr Konig. Why did you need that, for SDU purposes?

MR SELEPE: The purpose of robbing the arms, we did not have firearms and it was during those times when there were fightings. We were trying by all means to get the firearms, to buy them if possible. If there were places to disarm or people to disarm, we would even do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Carry on - what offence occurred next?

ADV GCABASHE: Before you go to the next one, have you finished with the first one? I just have a couple of questions, I might as well ask them here on clarity, unless you hadn't quite finished?

MR SELEPE: As far as that incident is concerned, I think my testimony is finished as far as that is concerned, because it ends where we alighted from the vehicle and we walked to the township.

ADV GCABASHE: Just two short questions, just to clarify for me. You were given information about the firearms that Konig had. What firearms were you told he had and how many?

MR SELEPE: We were told that they normally have shotguns, two shotguns and a pump gun. We were looking at three firearms.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you. The other question relating to the same incident is, how were you able to block Konig's car without being observed, because I thought you said one car was escorting another car and you blocked the one that was escorting the other one? How were you able to do that without the other chap stopping you?

MR SELEPE: We waited for it, when it was appearing from the direction of the bank, there was a place that looked like a stop sign, when it came, we went in front of it. When it arrived at the stop street, we made it to look like it was just an accident that we stopped at the stop street and he would come behind us. That is how we planned it.

ADV GCABASHE: And the car that they had been escorting, didn't notice this or didn't stop so there was no action from anybody else?

MR SELEPE: No, the car that was being escorted, it went ahead because the street was quite busy.

ADV GCABASHE: Thank you Mr Selepe. Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Let's get to the next matter.

MR MASHABANE: What was the next offence you committed?

MR SELEPE: The second offence was a robbery of Mr Tshabalala's bakkie, that is also related to the shooting of Glen Thompson and the attempted murder of Mr Gehlig.

It was on a Thursday when I received instructions from my senior MK who is the one who gave me a mandate to establish the Defence Unit.

He did not specify but he told me that he had brought material, some material for me and he failed to bring that material, to get into the township with that material because there were roadblocks.

He wanted me to go there and fetch this material, because he only managed to leave it at Duduza. The following day it became necessary for us to get a car that would go to Duduza and fetch that material.

CHAIRPERSON: What was that material?

MR SELEPE: On that telephone conversation, he told me about the material, but I knew because we would refer to a material as the weapons or firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: So let's talk about firearms.

MR SELEPE: Firearms. The following day in the morning, when I woke up, I thought that going to Duduza I would need transport.

I tried to get the nearest person who would assist me in getting a transport to Duduza. I went to a member of ANC Youth League in Tokoza, whose name was Thami Mdlala. I told him to assist me in looking for a car, I had a mission that was going to take place in the evening.

Indeed, we went next to Angus, that is another industrial area in the firms. We waited there, there were a lot of cars coming in, but those were just private cars. Our intention was to get a company car. A bakkie appeared in that process.

I saw the driver wearing some duster coats and there were also registrations on top of the car. I went straight to him and I pointed. When he came with that car, I pointed him with a firearm. It was a Nissan bakkie.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you pointed at the driver, and then?

MR SELEPE: After pointing him a firearm, I told him that I - I asked him to borrow us a car for a short while. He would get his car back, because we wanted to use it. What he said was that he could give us a car, as long as we were not going to do anything to him.

He gave me the keys and I got into the car, I started the car and I went to place it. On that day, during the day, I went to tell one of the comrades, the SDUs, comrade Jamane, that in the evening, I told him that in the evening we were supposed to go and fetch the arms. He prepared himself.

In the evening, I went to fetch comrade Thami Mdlala. I also went to fetch comrade Vusi and comrade Jamane. I had already told them that we were going to Duduza to fetch the firearms. We were given the address, we went to Duduza and even the person that we were to find there at Duduza, was a person that was known to me.

CHAIRPERSON: What time did you take this bakkie from the driver?

MR SELEPE: It was in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: What time?

MR SELEPE: Roundabout nine or ten o'clock, I cannot remember because it happened some time ago.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, and what time did you go to Duduza?

MR SELEPE: When we moved from the township, it was roundabout five, half past five, but it was in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: And how long did you spend in Duduza? Let me ask you, what time did you leave Duduza after all your business?

MR SELEPE: I think we left Duduza, I cannot remember how much time did we spend there. I think it was about past six, it was in the evening, roundabout past six.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it dark or was it light?

MR SELEPE: When we left Duduza, it was not completely dark, but it was in the evening.

CHAIRPERSON: Twilight?

MR SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, then what happened? Now you are going back to Tokoza?

MR SELEPE: We were from Tokoza. The shortest route to Duduza is to go through Vosloorus.

CHAIRPERSON: From Duduza, you have the weapons, you are going back to Tokoza now. What happened?

MR SELEPE: That is what I am trying to explain. When we were entering Vosloorus, there was a major roadblock. I was supposed to turn left, but instead of doing so, I had to turn right, because I was running away from the roadblock, or I was avoiding the roadblock. That path led me to Dawn Park, and I entered through Dawn Park.

It was becoming darker and I parked next to the street lamp, because I wanted to communicate with the other comrades, as to whether they knew any road that was going to take us to the township.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us who was with you when you came from Duduza and when you went to Dawn Park, who was with you?

MR SELEPE: On my way to Duduza, I was with comrade Thami, comrade Jamane and comrade Vusi. We were four.

CHAIRPERSON: And Vusi? Carry on.

MR SELEPE: When I arrived there and parked the car, comrade Vusi and comrade Thami, were at the back of the bakkie because the bakkie had no canopy. When I was on my way to them, Vusi alighted from the vehicle. He went straight to the behind of the car, he was relieving himself. I was still waiting for him to come back, I was talking to Thami.

Jamane was in the passenger seat. There were traffic because we were parked next to the road. The cars were moving up and down. I noticed a car that indicated and it pulled next to the road. When I was still looking at this car, the doors of this car opened. Comrade Vusi, because he was nearer, he screamed or shouted that these people were bridging their firearms.

What came to my mind at that time, because I knew that I had avoided the roadblock, I thought that maybe in that roadblock, there were people who noticed us or perhaps the people, those people were the people who were in the neighbour watch, who were patrolling that suburb that was for Africans and whites.

When I went to the car again in front, I heard a gunshot and comrade Thami ran from the behind of the bakkie, he went to the front. When this shot was fired, comrade Jamane was busy opening that back with firearms.

When he opened the back ...

MR MASHABANE: Where did the shot come from, from your side or from the other car which had just stopped?

MR SELEPE: When this car parked, I went inside the car. I don't know where the shot was coming from, because when I went out again, I saw comrade Vusi laying on the ground and I think it came from the people who were in this other car, though I am not certain about that because I did not see the person who fired.

MR MASHABANE: And you say Vusi was laying on the ground? Why was he, was he hurt or why was he laying on the ground?

MR SELEPE: I went out of the car after Jamane gave me the rifle. I could not see Vusi but the person that I could see was Thami and comrade Jamane. Those are the people that I saw, because we were on the other side.

There was a shootout because when I came out and comrade Jamane, we were also shooting but we couldn't see comrade Vusi at the time, because I was just on the other side of the bakkie. I later saw him laying on the ground.

MR MASHABANE: When you saw him, at that stage, was he injured or ...

MR SELEPE: When I saw him there, after some time, that was after the shooting, and even the people who were in that other car, were no longer shooting back. I saw him, I saw Vusi laying down on the ground, and he was still alive, but he was full of blood. I think he was already injured.

MR MASHABANE: Thereafter, what happened?

MR SELEPE: As I was also confused, after the shooting had subsided, I went back to the car, talked to comrade Jamane and Vusi and Thami. I told them to get into the car and leave.

I made a U-turn. I remembered comrade Vusi that was left behind, laying on the ground. I alighted from the vehicle. A person fired from that same car when I was taking the U-turn. That is when comrade Thami was shot at because when I was taking a U-turn, he was no longer in the car, he was already shot at.

MR MASHABANE: When you got into your car and made the U-turn, where was the other car at that stage?

MR SELEPE: It remained standing where it was.

MR MASHABANE: And where were the people who were in the car?

MR SELEPE: The person that I was exchanging fire with, I am not sure how many people were inside, but the one who opened the door, he ran away towards the direction of the houses. There was also something that looked like a veld nearby.

MR MASHABANE: You may continue.

MR SELEPE: When I made that U-turn, thinking of going to fetch Vusi, comrade Thami couldn't walk. He was also on the ground. I heard a siren behind me, that was a police siren.

When I heard that, I did not go back to comrade Thami and Vusi, I went back to the car. Comrade Jamane had already started the car, because when I left the car, I switched the car off. I thought that if I get into the car, these police might shoot at us or arrest us. I took a rifle from him, because the rifle was in the front of the car, I took that rifle from him, I took a cover using this car and the police car was coming from behind.

When they saw this rifle through the window, the police shot at me. When they saw me handling this rifle through the window after Jamane had given me the rifle, the police started shooting.

As I was shooting back, the car was also moving forward and comrade Jamane was shooting, was driving the car and reversing at the same time and the police were also pursuing the car.

I arrived at the stop street, I had run out of ammunition for my rifle. I went to comrade Jamane, I pushed him to the other side, and I got into the car and I started the car because I couldn't trust his driving, so I had to drive the car.

When I was trying to drive this car, the car came to a standstill, I think the tyres were already shot at. That is when I left the vehicle. The pistol that I was using when I was, the pistol that I had when I was going to Duduza, it was still with me. I managed to fire about four times, so that I could get a chance to run away.

Comrade Jamane managed to escape.

CHAIRPERSON: Vusi, or let me put it this way, you talk of police that were shooting at you. The people who were shooting at your group, were they in that motor vehicle that came to your car, to your bakkie - whom you thought were the police?

MR SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: In retrospect we known now that they weren't police, it was Thompson and company.

MR SELEPE: I heard that in court. As we were shooting, the only car that I noticed that it belonged to the police, was the vehicle that was yellow with a blue lamp on top.

CHAIRPERSON: When was that?

MR SELEPE: After making a U-turn.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, now do you remember in your trial it was suggested, or the issue arose that you were connected to the burglary of a house in that street?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: And that when you were parked there, people associated, coming from that direction of where these goods were eventually found in the veld, do you remember it was raised in your trial?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I remember that was suggested in the trial.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say about that?

MR SELEPE: Though it was put during the trial, it is because, it is how the complainant had put it, because they saw a van that was parked there, they suspected that there was a burglary.

When they came to approach that van, that van that was parked in the street, it is when they came to us and the shootout started. Even in court they mentioned that they were suspecting.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you involved in that burglary?

MR SELEPE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Were any of your comrades involved in that burglary?

MR SELEPE: No, they were all with me. They were not involved in that burglary.

CHAIRPERSON: So if there was a burglary in that same street, it was committed by another group of people?

MR SELEPE: I think so. If there was a burglary, I think it was another group of people.

CHAIRPERSON: The reason that you shot at Thompson and his group, was to defend yourselves from being taken with those firearms which you needed for SDU purposes?

MR SELEPE: Yes, that is correct. We were protecting the firearms.

CHAIRPERSON: So that was a political activity on its own?

MR SELEPE: Yes, because I was sent by the community and I had to defend the community. I think that was a political activity.

CHAIRPERSON: And Thami was along on that operation, all the time?

MR SELEPE: From the first time when the SDUs were established, Thami was always giving a hand, that is why I decided to choose him to come and assist me, because he was the nearest person.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Now, Mr Mashabane, there is about 11 offences listed for which application is made. If you look at the application on page 119, there is a general reference to acts, omissions or offences for possession of illegal firearms, murder, stolen vehicle, theft of firearm, Kliprivier.

Now, I think we would agree that we will have to fit in those offences into the list here. The possession of illegal firearms, would probably be related to this incident which ended in Dawn Park? Am I correct?

MR MASHABANE: Indeed Mr Chairman, these are my instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on) ... of Thompson, that is also a Dawn Park issue?

MR MASHABANE: Indeed Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And the stolen vehicle would be related to go and collect the firearms and therefore it was the stealing of the bakkie of Mr Tshabalala?

MR MASHABANE: Indeed Mr Chairman, as it is further written that the stolen vehicle ...

CHAIRPERSON: And the attempted, well, there is no attempted murder but I think we can read it within the context of the Dawn Park incident. That will be Gehlig?

MR MASHABANE: Yes, indeed Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thefts of firearm, where would that be, is that the Kliprivier?

MR MASHABANE: It is Kliprivier. It is.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose vehicle would that have been that you were driving in Dawn Park, that was a bakkie?

MR SELEPE: That is the car that I took from Mr Tshabalala, Shadrack Tshabalala.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. As far as the offences and incidents that are recorded in the application form at page 119, we have the robbery of firearms at Kliprivier?

MR MASHABANE: Indeed yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The murder of Glen Thompson, the attempted murder of Gehlig and the robbery of the bakkie of Tshabalala?

MR MASHABANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That would be the Dawn Park issue?

MR MASHABANE: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: These other offences listed, how do we fit it in? Can we fit it into the incidents referred to in the application? Are they separate incidents?

MR MASHABANE: Mr Chairman, if I may add, there is one incident which is now not yet addressed, the incident of shooting where a Cressida was taken. It was at a petrol station, where there was an exchange of gunfire between the policemen and the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is that referred to in the application?

MR MASHABANE: That Mr Chairman, could be fitted under the theft of firearm, because the intention of the applicant was, he received information that firearms were kept.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but wasn't he referring to the incident at Kliprivier, Klip River police station?

MR MASHABANE: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So he can't benefit from the theft of firearms on the Kliprivier, because that is one incident?

MR MASHABANE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then say the matter that occurred at the filling station is now covered by that there?

MR MASHABANE: What he did in the application, he actually made the major points, like theft of firearms and then, what he ...

CHAIRPERSON: Intending to cover everything?

MR MASHABANE: Yes, to cover everything, every incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. You see Mr Mashabane, that may be a convenient way to bring all the offences. If you read page 120, he goes on to explain which thefts and which firearms he refers to, and there clearly, he is referring to the incident at the police station at Kliprivier.

He could not be referring to any other theft or incident? Do you follow?

MR MASHABANE: Yes indeed Mr Chairman, I do follow, but here it, on that page 120, it is only referred to the Kliprivier police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Isn't the only inference that we can draw, is that his reference to theft of firearms has been a matter for which amnesty is sought, is with reference to what happened at Kliprivier police station?

MR MASHABANE: Yes, as it stands, that is the inference the Committee ...

CHAIRPERSON: And in the circumstances, if you look at it holistically, we cannot even on a generous interpretation, seek to include the other incidents?

MR MASHABANE: Indeed Mr Chairman, but my instructions when I asked him about that yesterday what was your intention ...

CHAIRPERSON: No, let's forget about the instructions, we have enough trouble about the instructions, I am saying looking at it legally, and looking at it logically, the logic of the matter is that an applicant whether he filled it in himself or not, is irrelevant.

MR MASHABANE: Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: He is not obliged to get an Attorney or any assistance. He has applied for certain incidents which covers the Kliprivier incident and there he says, in that incident he stole weapons and for that, he now seeks amnesty because it was a political matter.

He comes to the hearing today and he includes a whole host of other incidents which on its own maybe able to be covered by a general statement, but we look at his whole application and then clearly we can see what he intended to apply for.

Is there any leeway to think differently, never mind what he tells us now? We are bound by what is contained in that, because if we can't bring it under any of those sections, then by allowing him to testify and deciding on the matter, would in effect allow a new application in. Do you follow the reasoning?

MR MASHABANE: Yes, I do understand.

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore, I must question even at this stage, this long list of offences, whether they have indeed been covered by the initial application which falls before the closing date, and the rational is we can't allow new applications, because the closing date is gone. I am sure you will appreciate what floodgates we will open if we interpret it in any other way?

MR MASHABANE: Indeed, I appreciate that.

CHAIRPERSON: And therefore, you need to decide what the position is with these other robberies and other offences like escape, whether it is worth pursuing in the circumstances.

I will give you ten minutes to think about it.

ON RESUMPTION:

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: (still under oath)

EXAMINATION BY MR MASHABANE: (continued) Thank you Mr Chairman. I was asked to address the Committee in so far as pages 119 and 120 is concerned.

It is on those pages written and the explanation which is given by the writer thereof, it is only as far as theft of firearms or possession of illegal firearms are concerned, and further they explain the specific incident upon which the said offence was committed.

But however, the writer omitted to include certain events or places upon which these offences, the similar offences were committed by the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Just stop there. If that is common cause that he omitted to include it in that application form, can he then make application now and we've got to talk strict principles.

MR MASHABANE: Just before I can answer direct to the question posed to me, I would address the Committee as well as the intention of the writer is concerned, when he completed or when she filled the form.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, isn't that the issue? He may have intended a lot of things, but we are bound by what is contained in the application form. Like I indicated, we will take a broad view of it and interpret it as broadly as we can, but where the issue in question is clearly not one which has been mentioned or could be interpreted as falling under one that has been mentioned, then it amounts to a new application.

MR MASHABANE: Mr Chairman, I would submit that it does not amount to a new application. It is - maybe what the applicant should have done in the circumstances is to ask the Committee to file a supplementary affidavit, wherein this other issues which referred, because clearly on page 119 where he mentioned of the offences which he is seeking amnesty on, he does mention firearm as one of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Theft of firearm?

MR MASHABANE: Theft of firearm, indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: What about robbery?

MR MASHABANE: Robbery ...

CHAIRPERSON: Most of the list which he mentions today, includes robbery.

MR MASHABANE: That I submit Mr Chairman, would fall if one is looking - like for example the stealing of a motor vehicle, the writer thereof, what did she, what was her intention when she referred to, when she put on those words, and legally speaking ...

CHAIRPERSON: When you fill in a passport application, surely what is contained therein is of relevance, it is not what the applicant intended? If you misquote the colour of your eyes, they are not going to ask you whether you intended to say it was blue instead of brown, you have written brown. Isn't this a similar issue, a similar situation?

MR MASHABANE: Indeed Mr Chairman, it is a similar situation and if I may, though I know that this Committee, they don't work as Committees where you can refer to decisions which were taken to other Committees which are like this one, the similar question was posed by the applicant in the Boipatong massacre where the Honourable Mr Justice Nqobo was sitting and there was a legal representative who was acting for the victims, and he objected to that on the grounds that they did not include all the offences which the applicant was seeking.

In his ruling, his Honourable Mr Nqobo said that it suffices only if the applicant shows his intention to apply before the deadline, and the other information can be furnished on the day of the hearing.

CHAIRPERSON: And he was correct in saying so. That is why we are saying that when he talks of an incident for example, whatever happened at Kliprivier police station, I and this Committee are happy to include all those incidental offences that occurred at Kliprivier police station, despite it not being mentioned because there is a clear intention that I am going to own up to everything that occurred at Kliprivier police station during that incident.

That is what he meant, even if the application is silent, there is a clear intention to deal with that incident lock stock and barrel, with all the possible offences. But where there is no suggestion even, or hint, of a particular incident, identifiable incident, then we are on a different footing, isn't it?

MR MASHABANE: Mr Chairman, I appreciate the problem which is before this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: (Microphone not on)

MR MASHABANE: Yes, indeed Mr Chairman, and in dealing with the problem, I would ask the Honourable Chairman, to permit us to lead viva voce evidence as far as the writer of the statement is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: That is why I asked you in chambers to make a legal decision and advise your client. I can't stop him from testifying. If he testifies on incidents which the Committee is of the view, doesn't fall within the application, all we do is refuse. We can do that.

This is an attempt to avoid people being embarrassed, time wasting, wasting of money and a cluttering of the record. Where there is clear indication, where it can be clearly seen by way of logic, that an applicant for some unfortunate reason even, is not entitled to make the application, or is not likely to attain amnesty, then I think the advise should be given.

Like I say he can come and testify here about what he wants to, all we do is that if we are convinced that it is irrelevant, then we will ignore it. That is why I asked you to look at the matter and make a legal decision, or logical decision. I am in your hands, I mean I am not going to make a ruling or give a judgement on what you have said. If you tell me you want to lead him on all these offences, and you may persuade us otherwise, then so be it.

MR MASHABANE: Mr Chairman, that is the route that I would ask for from the Committee, to lead on that evidence, because here clearly, we have to check the holistic of the statement and the intention thereof, under which this statement was made.

CHAIRPERSON: We've got to look at the statement, you are talking about extrinsic evidence. I may refer you to the issue also in this bundle, supplement 2, page 1. If you notice, you compare that with page 119, they talk about murder and stolen vehicles, stolen vehicles, possession of illegal firearms, Kliprivier police station, etc.

There once again, he clearly sets out what he was referring to. In basic terms, he is referring to all the incidents related to the Dawn Park issue from the time they went to pick up the firearms, and secondly he refers to the Kliprivier police station incident. I just point it out to you.

If you want to proceed, we would look at the application also. If you want to, then proceed.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, may I, I know it is not my opportunity, but I may just bring it under your attention, if you decide to listen to the other applications as well, there is the question of Section 19(4) requirements.

If applicant's victims are not notified, clearly, as far as I can understand Section 19(4), those applications cannot be dealt with. Thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: I tried to avoid even having to say that. Like I have said, I see the Dawn Park incident and all attended offences as having been mentioned there and the Kliprivier incident. If you want to continue with the other issues that are separate from those two basic incidents, then over and above that, I mean clearly the application was directed at those two incidents only, and people effected by those, there have been attempts to inform them in terms of the law.

It may not be proper to proceed with those applications in any case. And that is not the fault of those officials of the TRC, they have interpreted what is written here. I am in your hands and there is still the issue that you haven't testified on, being the Kliprivier incident. That we are happy to listen to, but I am in your hands.

If the applicant wants to testify on all those other incidents as well, be my guest then.

ADV GCABASHE: Mr Mashabane, I was just going to add that if there is a supplementary form that arrived at the TRC before the cut off date, that has the detail of all these other matters, that would assist us. If you had information of that nature. We do not have it obviously, we are looking at the bundles that we have been given.

If your client knows of such information that was filed before the 10th of May 1997, then these are matters that will be properly before us. I don't know if you might be able to solicit that type of information from either client or other sources.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't it the 12th of December?

ADV GCABASHE: The cut off date for submissions?

CHAIRPERSON: The 10th of May was incidents.

ADV GCABASHE: Incidents, I beg your pardon, December 1997. The cut off date for the submission of applications, that is the cut off date I referred to, which is December, the 12th of December 1997.

If something was filed before that date, you can present it.

CHAIRPERSON: Which is supplementary and confirms what you say.

ADV GCABASHE: Yes, that can be done.

MR MASHABANE: Thank you, can I ask for a five minute break to solicit that information from either client or my Attorney.

CHAIRPERSON: I will encourage you to investigate another possibility if you haven't got that information.

ON RESUMPTION:

MOLEFE MICHAEL SELEPE: (still under oath)

EXAMINATION BY MR MASHABANE: (continued) Thank you Mr Chairman. In addressing the problem we are faced with, I would love again to go back to the decision which I referred the Honourable Chairperson to it and ratify one thing on that aspect.

The issue there which was decided on that case, the Boipatong case, by the Honourable Nqobo, the facts were that the applicants, 17 of them, signed blank forms and they filled the application form when, at a later date, when the cut off date had already passed.

The Judge in ruling on that one, he went on the intention. He said we must look at the intention of the applicants, and clearly by applying, then the applicants had intentions to give further evidence on the date of the hearing.

The one who was acting for the victims, he objected to that application, but the Honourable Judge in his ruling, he said what is required was an intention. I therefore submit that even in this case, Mr Chairperson, I submit what is required is the intention, and clearly the applicant in filling that form, showed intention to apply for amnesty and further evidence would have been given in a way of viva voce or by an affidavit, during the hearing proceedings Mr Chairman.

That is the point which I would like to submit before the Honourable Chairperson. In the event that the Honourable Chairperson is not satisfied with that point which I have just submitted, I would therefore ask that this matter be postponed so that compliance with the Act, Section 19(4) could, the victims to be informed.

I submit that if a postponement can be granted, the TRC would then inform the victims and then there would be no prejudice if that postponement is granted and if the victims would attend the hearing at a later date.

If that postponement is not granted, then the applicant would suffer prejudice in the sense that he will remain in prison for a long time.

CHAIRPERSON: And whose fault would that be as sympathetic as I may be to his cause, whose fault would that be?

MR MASHABANE: Mr Chairman, I would submit it is not the fault of the applicant, it is the fault of those who took the statement.

Clearly the applicant furnished every information which was required by the TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: If that is so, how come it is not in the application form?

MR MASHABANE: That Mr Chairman, that is what I asked the Honourable Chairperson to ask the person who took the statement, Ms Sealy, to come and tell the Court why that is not in the, why was that information not included in the original application form and Ms Sealy is available, and she is prepared.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not going to call her. Let me get to the other issue, would you agree that I am not bound by Judge Nqobo's decision?

MR MASHABANE: Yes, indeed Mr Chairman, indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: I may even think it is totally wrong to condone a fraudulent application.

MR MASHABANE: Indeed Mr Chairperson. At the moment, I can't take this point any further.

CHAIRPERSON: But you seem to miss my point. The position is that you must lead your witness on whatever. Strictly speaking you should be leading him on the offences for which he applies, or has applied, timeously and properly for amnesty.

In an attempt to do so, we ask what he is applying for and we got a long list of offences. Most, at least half of them, don't fall in our view, within the ambit of any offence mentioned in the application.

Further to that, you ask for a postponement for the purposes of giving out the necessary notices. The necessary notice must be based on the application. How are we, or the TRC, going to identify those people who deserve notices, or who are entitled to notices? It is not here?

MR MASHABANE: The TRC or the Committee can get, in terms of Section 19(1) can ask for further particulars from the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Those further particulars have been supplied in supplement 2, page 1 and 2 - clearly he refers to two incidents basically. It brings a further question mark as to his intention, what he really wanted to apply for.

Paragraphs 1, 2 and 3 relates to broadly speaking the Dawn Park incident, and paragraph 4, and the overleaf, refers to the Kliprivier police station incident. I may as well tell you that we will encourage you also to include a count of assault on those two policemen in the Kliprivier policemen, despite it not being actually mentioned in your application, because that offence was incidental to the incident. Do you follow how we are viewing this?

MR MASHABANE: Indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: We are willing to consider that offence within the ambit of the Kliprivier police station incident. That is the crux of the matter. Not, in my view, not what was intended by the applicant, because he is bound by his agents and I might as well say now, that I am not very impressed with the way that the agents represented all these applicants.

I think some of the applicants would have done a better job. But be that as it may, I am trying to describe, I am trying to give an example of how we can, some of the offences not mentioned in the application, can indeed be considered, but it has to be identifiable. Do you follow?

Now, if I may explain further, it is not for me to tell you what to do. I am entitled to ask you on what basis are you making a certain application, and if you give a reasonable, acceptable answer, then perhaps we will allow you to proceed, but if you want to proceed on all these irrelevant incidents, know full well that we have problems with it. I am leaving it in your hands as to what to do. We have adjourned twice to allow you to consider the issue.

Let's carry on. I know the Kliprivier incident can be proceeded with. As to the rest, I leave it in your hands.

MR MASHABANE: We will proceed as far as the incident of the Kliprivier police station is concerned.

Can you tell the Committee your involvement as far as the Kliprivier police station, the attack on Kliprivier police station is concerned?

MR SELEPE: The role that I played at Kliprivier police station, I was told by the Commander, Mduduzi Ngobesi, in 1993, that was on the 15th of December, he called me and he told me that there was a place that we were supposed to go to and disarm and get the firearms.

ADV GCABASHE: Let's just get the Commander's surname right. We had Kubeka. You say Ngobesi. We had Kubeka when we heard the other applicants on the Kliprivier matter. Mduduzi Kubeka, Bla?

MR SELEPE: Bla, Mduduzi, I think, I am not sure about the surname whether it is Ngobesi or Kubeka.

ADV GCABASHE: It is Kubeka. He has told us it is Kubeka.

CHAIRPERSON: It was Bla that was your Commander?

MR SELEPE: Yes, that is correct. We left on that particular day, everything was arranged and I was told about the members because Bla had already arranged with those SDU members who were going there with me. Even the place itself, was already identified, the police station that is.

We left, it was myself, Bla, comrade Nqiqi Hlango, comrade Clark Sibeko and comrade Kathi. On our way to the place, when we arrived at the police station, he gave us the firearms.

I cannot remember what type of firearm I had, whether it was a shotgun or something else. I had to stand at a certain position, to be on the lookout if there would be police or other police vehicles that would be coming in, hence I was there to defend and there were other people who were to be at the front line, that was comrade Nqiqi and comrade Clark.

When I went in there, I remained outside. I think comrade Bla was in the car. When I came in, the people were ordered to lay down. There were two policemen. The role that I played there, one policeman that was laying on the floor, he wanted to look at my face, that is the police that I tried to prevent him from lifting up his head and I used my foot to do so.

They requested the keys to the safe and in the safe, the pistols were removed. The palm guns and the R4 rifles and the R1, if I am not mistaken.

After doing that, as they were still laying on the floor, we cut the telephone wire and we went back into the car and we went back to the township. When we arrived at the township, we left the stuff with Bla because it was at night and the following day, Bla as the Commander, distributed them to the other Sections who were also in the war zone, the other Sections that were also in the war zone.

MR MASHABANE: For all the offences, is that all as far as Kliprivier is concerned?

MR SELEPE: If my memory serves me well, I think that is the end of the incident, when we get to the township and we left the firearms with Bla Kubeka.

MR MASHABANE: For all the activities or offences which you committed, what was the motive behind?

MR SELEPE: The reason for me to take part or play a role, it is because as one of the SDU members, we did not have enough firearms to protect the community. That is where I decided to play a role, or make it a point that we bring these firearms so that at the end of the day, we managed to protect the community that was being attacked by the IFP members.

MR MASHABANE: Who initiated the formation of the SDU?

MR SELEPE: I am the one who initiated that in my Section. I am the one who brought that idea.

We were at a meeting, ANC Youth League Meeting. In that particular meeting, an Executive meeting of which I was also part of, a decision was taken because most people left their Sections because they were being attacked by the IFP members and they fled to my Section, that was Slovo Section.

Therefore we had to approach the Umkhonto weSizwe, that is the military wing of the African National Congress. When it was approached, I was not part of the delegation that was going to those people, but after a number of days, people who were not known to me, came with the exception of one person, they came to me and I only knew comrade Qaba in that group of people.

When he came to me, he told me that I was supposed to take steps about what was taking place in that Slovo Section, because I was the Chairman of the Section.

He gave me a mandate to protect the community of Tokoza. The only way to defend the community, for us to be able to defend the community, the only way was to get firearms. They said together with those comrade, they were willing to assist where necessary.

So I would report everything to him, or some things that I had already done, I would go back to him and report back.

MR MASHABANE: So if the purpose of the SDU was to protect the community, why then didn't you inform the police or call the police to be of assistance to you?

MR SELEPE: During those days even the police ...

CHAIRPERSON: We are well aware of the reasons for the establishment of the Self Defence Units. You don't need to explain to us.

MR SELEPE: Thank you.

MR MASHABANE: And whilst you engaged in these activities, who did you report to?

MR SELEPE: I would report to comrade Themba Qaba.

MR MASHABANE: And the issue of - as you sit now, the acts or the offences which you have committed, do you regard them as being legal or unlawful?

CHAIRPERSON: Does it matter what he thinks? It must be unlawful, what would your position be if he says he regarded it as lawful, then what is he going to get amnesty for?

MR MASHABANE: Mr Chair, what I wanted to establish was, is he now as he is sitting, does he show any remorse for the activities which ...

CHAIRPERSON: It is not relevant.

MR MASHABANE: In that Mr Chairman, this is the application on behalf of the applicant.

ADV GCABASHE: I was just going to say if you do want to lead him on his attitude towards the victims, if that is what you were trying to deal with, you can deal with that, but remorse itself is not a requirement for amnesty. Just to clarify that.

If you do want to do that, then use the opportunity to lead him on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Maybe we can help you there. First let's hear what Mr Steenkamp has got to say.

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I don't have any specific questions for the applicant at this stage. My information is as well that although some names or some identities of the victims are known, they could not be traced at all Mr Chairman. Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: I don't have any questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: During the early 1990's, until the elections, you were part of the trauma that hit South Africa. We, black people, were the victims of the apartheid system and certain things had to be done, like killing people, etc.

In certain quarters some people say it was unnecessary, they still say so. But nonetheless, these traumatic deeds took place and you were part of it in that particular area. I understand that the area is now quite peaceful, although you are in prison at the moment, this is what I am informed.

What is your view of the fact that there is a peaceful existence within the area now? Are you happy about it?

MR SELEPE: I am happy for that situation.

CHAIRPERSON: There is a demand by nature of this country and nation, that we indeed start to live together like we should have 300 years ago until our lives were intruded upon.

Should you, when you come out of prison, are you willing to contribute to building that nation as we think it should have been all these years?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I am prepared to do so.

CHAIRPERSON: You may not know this also, but during this transformation of our country, during this period, the gangsters, the crooks, have taken advantage of the situation. What is your attitude towards them?

MR SELEPE: I do not know what to say about those people, because they also deserve to be forgiven and those who had violated other peoples' rights, they are supposed to be taken to court, and they are supposed to be sentenced for their offences.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you tolerate them within the community when you come out, in other words, is there a place for them in our country?

MR SELEPE: No, I don't think there is a place for them, because those are the people who are harassing, violating the same communities that they live in.

CHAIRPERSON: There were some victims of the incidents in which you were involved, do you understand?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I understand.

CHAIRPERSON: I am not too sure who they were or are, but nonetheless, perhaps you do know them. Are you willing to talk to them to make your peace with them?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I am willing.

CHAIRPERSON: And would you participate in such an exercise should such a meeting be arranged?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I will participate.

CHAIRPERSON: Would that be with a view of making friends?

MR SELEPE: Yes, I would be doing that because I want us to live together and create peace.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, I was told that you made applications for two counts of escaping from custody. Mr Mashabane, what is the position about those?

MR MASHABANE: Indeed Mr Chairperson. The applicant still persists in making the application for escaping. In view of the fact that he views the escape as an act which is incidental to his imprisonment.

He feels that he was imprisoned for acts or offences which he committed, whilst he was in his own understanding ...

CHAIRPERSON: Before you explain that, there are two counts. We don't know what the dates were, because if it occurred after the 10th of May 1994, then we can't even entertain it.

MR MASHABANE: The one Mr Chairman, thank you for directing me on that point, the one Mr Chair, the applicant is applying for, is the one which took place in January 1993 and the other one which took place after the cut off date line, it follows that ...

CHAIRPERSON: I am told he escaped during a relevant period for these purposes, in January 1993, you escaped from custody, correct?

MR SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Why did you escape?

MR SELEPE: Mr Chairman, my escape from jail for the second time, when I was arrested, I had the Investigating Officer, Captain Steyn telling me that he had some information that I played a role in the robbing of Kliprivier police station.

When I escaped from jail, I knew that as I was not given the bail and he told me that he would come and book me out of Boksburg prison, I knew that on that particular day when he was about to book me out, I was to confess that I was involved in the Kliprivier incident, the disarming at the police station.

I have to confess even with my Commander.

CHAIRPERSON: When did that escape take place?

MR SELEPE: It took place in 1994, December if I am not mistaken.

CHAIRPERSON: You see, you can only apply for amnesty for incidents that occurred on or before the 10th of May 1994. If you committed a crime for whatever reason after that, I am not empowered to consider any application for amnesty. Do you understand.?

Now you say the second one took place in December 1994, which is after the 10th of May 1994. Tell me about the one that occurred in January 1993.

MR SELEPE: What took place in January 1993, I was arrested, I was in prison without bail and the Captain who was in charge - all these cases reappeared.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay, then what happened, what did the Captain say, you say?

MR SELEPE: Captain told me that I was not going to get bail because he wanted to make sure that I am in a tight situation and that same Captain had relations with the people that I regarded as my enemies, that is Bishop Khumalo of the IFP.

To me it became apparent that if I stay in jail, waiting to appear in connection with those cases, and even in the townships in December, the comrades were attacked, and during my imprisonment ten comrades in my Section, had died.

I realised that if I had to appear in court on the 10th of January,that was not going to help. I had to run, I had to escape and go and help the community because the people were dying in Tokoza.

I escaped on the 12th of January 1993.

CHAIRPERSON: What was the Captain's name?

MR SELEPE: Captain Thomas Steyn.

MR SIBANYONI: Just one question Mr Chairperson, after escaping, where did you go?

MR SELEPE: After escaping I went back to Tokoza, where I used to stay.

MR SIBANYONI: And served as an SDU member?

MR SELEPE: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that it Mr Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, that is the roll. I don't want to have to have the last say, but there is a request from the victims, that I must just thank you and the Honourable Committee members for the way the victims have testified here and the manner in which they have been dealt with. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I am going to end this hearing and I promised yesterday that I would be able to give decisions tomorrow morning.

It seems I was informed, that if I do so, it would be contrary to the law and therefore I cannot give it tomorrow morning. I am terribly sorry if I had misled anybody, thinking that they would get decisions tomorrow.

However, they will be informed within - at the latest one month from here, when all the legal procedures have been complied with and the decisions printed in the Government Gazette before it can be made public.

I want to also appeal to applicants who are involved in Self Defence Unit matters, it seems to be a trait and we waste time, and I am particularly worried about people who are still in prison, and we have to adjourn every so now and then, in order to give Attorneys and others the chance to consult, merely because they were unable to see their clients prior to the hearing.

I want to appeal to the public and to those future applicants, to see your Attorney long beforehand. It is unfair for us to waste time while your comrades are sitting in jail still.

Everything can go smoother if you had taken the trouble to see your Attorney or Advocate long before the hearing starts, so that everybody knows where they stand and preparations can be made properly.

We have all witnessed a number of serious problems in these applications. None of which can be laid at the door step of the applicants themselves. It is time that we came to realise that there are people's lives and rights at stake.

Let us do that job properly. It starts by the applicant himself, seeing to it that he gets to his legal representative in time, not on the day of the hearing, but long before then so that if there is any preparations to be made, it can be done before the hearing starts and nobody is embarrassed.

I hope what I have said is taken in good spirit and in the spirit it was intended to be taken.

I thank the public for the interest they have shown in these hearings and the applicants for respecting the process. I also wish to thank the interpreters and technicians who do work that is not very often acknowledged. Without them, these proceedings would not be able to proceed.

I thank you. I adjourn this hearing.

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