______________________________________________________CHAIRPERSON: For purposes of the record this is a sitting of the Amnesty Committee in the East London City Hall. Today is Monday 26th April 1999.

The panel hearing the applications is chaired by myself, Denzil Potgieter, I'm assisted by Advocate Francis Bosman and Ntsiki Sandi. We will be hearing the applications today of Mr Lerato Abel Kgotlhe, amnesty reference number AM5619/97. Pila Martin Dolo, amnesty reference AM3485/96 and Lavuyo Kenneth Kuluman, amnesty reference AM1638/96.

Mr Mbandazayo, do you want to put yourself on record?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee. My name is Lungelo Mbandazayo, I'm representing the applicants in this hearing. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Patel?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson. I'm Ramula Patel, leader of evidence for the Amnesty Committee, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Can you just give us an indication, is there one of the interested parties present at the proceedings?

MS PATEL: Yes Honourable Chairperson, the person present today is Cornelia Pienaar who is the wife of the deceased in one of the Ficksburg house bombing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Is that quite correct Ms Patel? The way I see it that Mr Roos was a deceased before the incident?

MS PATEL: Mrs Pienaar is subsequently remarried.

ADV BOSMAN: No Ms Patel, I think you misunderstand me, Mrs Pienaar seems to be the victim, her former husband passed away before the incident appeared.

MS PATEL: Yes, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you. Mrs Pienaar, I think perhaps you want to just confirm what was just said?

MRS PIENAAR: I am Cornelia Getrude Pienaar and I am the victim in the Apla attack.

CHAIRPERSON: And what is your position, do you oppose the application or what is the position?

MRS PIENAAR: We oppose the application.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Yes, Mr Mbandazayo, is there anything else that you wanted to place on record before we proceed to hear the applications of your client?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, what I want to place on record is what is regarding the incident especially the one at the house of Mrs Cornelia Pienaar. Chairperson, there may be a slight confusion regarding the houses. There were two houses attacked by two groups and according to the information is that the house of Mrs Pienaar was attacked with a - there was a hand grenade which was used and according to our information is that Mr Dolo applied that initially he was charged for this incident regarding the house 143 3rd Street and it seems as if according to information when I consulted with them in fact Mr Dolo was not in that, he was not the one who was in that house, Mr Kgotlhe was in that house 143. So because they don't know the numbers and because Mr Dolo was charged, he thought that it was the house but now it transpires that a hand grenade and yet his group did not have a hand grenade, it was Kgotlhe's group that had a hand grenade.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you Mr Mbandazayo, that has been noted. Are you starting off with the application of Mr Dolo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, I would like to start with Mr Dolo the applicant followed by Mr Kgotlhe then Mr Kuluman but I would like to have direction from the Committee whether Mr Dolo's applying for two incidents, whether should I, when I'm leading him, take it all the incidents he's applying for, we'll deal with them and we finish them and thereafter we take Mr Kgotlhe?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes it would appear that that would be more advisable just to lead him on everything that he is applying for and we can take the next applicant.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

PILA MARTIN DOLO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Dolo, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Committee. Do you confirm that the affidavit which is before the Committee was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MR DOLO: Yes I do.

CHAIRPERSON: If you're going to testify in English then you might as well take it off Mr Dolo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, he is going to testify in English. Chairperson, for the benefit of the people who don't have the affidavit, I will read the affidavit if that's the case and go through it, thanks.

The affidavit by Mr Dolo reads thus:

Mr Chairperson, as I indicated that it will be heard now, the change because it was not the same house he attacked, was attacked by the unit which was led by Mr Kgotlhe, but they attacked some of the houses which were in that area same night.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, maybe the applicant will have to confirm what you've just said?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

MR DOLO: I do confirm it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

Chairperson, that's another - four operatives.

Chairperson, Scorpio was not present in this operation.

Mtate, Chairperson, if I may, Able Kgotlhe was the applicant, Able Kgotlhe.

MR DOLO: Sorry for correction again, the ...(indistinct) fired upon the Lesotho side, we were still inside South Africa at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, what we want to suggest is you go through the affidavit, you indicate all of the changes as you client has done now and you have done before. Once you're done you must get your client - you've got to lead him on the exchanges and get him to confirm under oath what you have been advising us from the bar informally.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'll do that Chairperson, okay.

Chairperson, as been indicated by Chairperson I'll lead the applicant then to these corrections. I'll start at page 6.

Chairperson, I understand that page 6, regarding the house, he has already confirmed it here?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Paragraph 11, Mr Dolo do you confirm that you were four operatives and that Scorpion was not present in this incident?

MR DOLO: I do confirm.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Also at paragraph 17, we also wanted to make correction regarding ...[intervention]

MR DOLO: Paragraph 14 - my unit was to attack the abovementioned house.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So you confirm that it was not the house number 143, 3rd Street in Ficksburg that you attacked?

MR DOLO: Yes I do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you also confirm in paragraph 17, do you want to make correction that the grenade was not fired on the side of Lesotho, was fired while still in South Africa?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Dolo before we finish, can you help with the affidavit? I've read your affidavit, can you in your own words as you indicated, how did you come to the decision that you must go to Ficksburg at paragraph 9 and attack those houses?

MR DOLO: Firstly, the area of Lesotho was under Mtate command. Myself I was stationed at Sterkspruit, I was the commander of Sterkspruit. Within a two weeks period prior the attack we have a liaison with Mr Mtate and then he asked me to go to Lesotho to help him there. Then I went to Lesotho. Whilst I was there at Lesotho I was stationed at - I forget the name of the place, but closer to - not far away from Ficksburg on the side of Lesotho. I was there for one week and a couple of days prior the attack. Mtate brought the guns and ammunition and the grenades and then we planned the attack and we decided that we were going to divide ourselves in two units, one unit headed by myself and the other unit headed by him. Then we went to the side of South Africa. After we crossed the river we then divided ourselves into those respective units. My unit was leading the other unit. We went closer to the mentioned house. I went to a third house from that house and then I waited for his unit to reach that house. We were also having information that all those houses around South African border closer to Lesotho were security personnel houses, they were after all acting as the first line of defence so as Apla and as our politics of the PAC that the police and the army were the pillars of apartheid and then that they wanted to be targeted. So the question of hitting that house was not specifically planned that we have to hit directly that one. We were there to attack anyone with the information we had was that all those houses were there were of security personnel's houses.

So the unit of Mtate attacked the house mentioned and mine attacked the third house from that one from the left hand side. With my unit, I was myself and Roger, I was armed with an R4 and a rifle grenade. Roger, I'm not sure what he was armed with but I think it was pistol, if not it was an Uzi which was a sub-machine gun. He was also having the grenade with him, an M26. He didn't use it in that house. After all, the main attack was going to be launched by the unit of Mtate. I was to see what was happening and then we attack any house whilst they were attacking if there was nothing else of any kind of counter-attack.

So we retreated. Whilst we were retreating, there was a counter attack and then we went to the road, the main road. At the main road there was a bridge. We rushed ourselves to the other side of the bridge. At the other side of the bridge that was then that I launched the rifle grenade and thereafter there was a car or then the cars that keep on passing the road but there was one car which we suspected to be of reinforcement. That was the one whereby I instructed Roger to throw the grenade to it but he missed the car with the grenade and there were also some shots which we fired to the car and thereafter we retreated to the Lesotho side.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Dolo, did - what exactly that Mr Kgotlhe told you when he called you from Sterkspruit where you were in charge? What exactly did he tell you about these attacks, what was the purpose, what did he tell you the purpose of the attack?

MR DOLO: It was part and parcel of our operations first to target and attack the police, the South African Police and the security forces and the Defence Force members at that time so with the information he was having was that those houses there were acting as the first line of defence, of which people who were deployed there will be security personnel so such people and their houses were part and parcel of our targets as they were acting as the garrisons of the then apartheid State so such places then had to be targeted so we didn't have any problem with that.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Dolo, did he tell you where he got this information from that the houses were occupied by security personnel?

MR DOLO: No, it was not part of my duties to question that.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, if there's no question on this then I would like to pass to the Dunside so that I can be finished leading him.

Mr Dolo then can you tell the Committee about the Dunside Farm attack? Why did you decide to attack the farm, the Dunside Farm?

MR DOLO: As Apla cadre and as a PAC, under Apla we stated out openly that what forms of the targets had to be targeted. We mentioned the question of the Defence Force, South African Defence Force, we mentioned the question of the SAP and the Reservist and general, we also mentioned the question of farmers, specifically White farmers, they were belonging to the Commando structures. So and also on the question of those farmers who were closer to the Lesotho side, it was part of our plan, our strategy that to drive them out of those areas as to widen up our area of operation and also by driving them out of those areas we would have a lot of land to operate to and by that after all we'll be having our land back that was the first start of how we come about to attack first that place and secondly, during that time the police, I think it was a day before the attack or two days before the attack, the police, I think it was Minister of Justice at that time, who uttered a statement to the media that there will be no more, any other attacks against farmers during that area, that area of Lesotho, Ficksburg area. So we also carry out this attack to undermine them, to show them that we can do whatever.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee who decided on the attack, was it yourself or were you given instructions to do that?

MR DOLO: I decided myself.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, for the present moment that's all I wanted to lead the applicant on, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Patel have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: I do thank you Honourable Chairperson. If you could just grant me a moment? Thank you.

Mr Dolo can you briefly just tell us, when Mr Kgotlhe called you to say that he needed assistance can you tell us when you went over to Lesotho who all was present there and what the chain of command was amongst the group there?

MR DOLO: Pardon, the last part of it?

MS PATEL: What the chain of command was amongst the group in Lesotho where you went over to assist Mr Kgotlhe.

MR DOLO: Okay, as I stated after all that Kgotlhe was the commander of the Lesotho side and myself I was in charge of the Sterkspruit so we did have liaison, you can see from the map the area themselves that they are so close to each other, so we did liaise the two of us and then after two weeks prior the attack I did go to Lesotho.

MS PATEL: So are you saying that you and Mr Kgotlhe, whilst you were in Lesotho, would you and he have been at the same level of command in terms of your structures, would you have been at the same level.

MR DOLO: Well, there's no problem with that of course yes, but it depended on the area, I was in his area so he is the one that knows the area better than me. He had information of which I did not know of the target and other things so the whole of the responsibility lay with him, lay with him after all.

MS PATEL: Okay and who all was present there?

MR DOLO: I mentioned ...[intervention]

MS PATEL: Who assisted in these operations that you have testified to?

MR DOLO: I mentioned Roger and Jabu.

MS PATEL: Okay.

MR DOLO: Who were part and parcel of the operation.

MS PATEL: Okay and who else?

MR DOLO: Nobody else from my knowledge, I don't know from his side who was helping him or not but I mentioned those people, I was the ...(indistinct) operation. Even the time I was there during that two weeks I was with those people so there was no one else.

MS PATEL: Okay so you're saying that from your unit that went over to Lesotho from Sterkspruit you took Roger and Jabu with you?

MR DOLO: No I met them that side.

MS PATEL: You met them there?

MR DOLO: Yes I went there alone.

MS PATEL: Okay and who else was present in Mtate's group when you got there besides Roger and Jabu?

MR DOLO: If they were others they were not there at that house I met them. At the house I met them it was Mtate, Roger and Jabu.

MS PATEL: Okay, so when the planning was done for these operations how was it decided who would go with whom?

MR DOLO: The plan was there already, they needed an empower and during that time a lot of our people was at Sterkspruit, I was merely also dealing with the question of the training so there were no people to take care of that time and also there were no other operations to carry on because the area was readily classified by that I mean the area was so - the police would patrol the areas closer to Ficksburg, the areas of Zastron and the area - what is the other side of Sterkspruit? It is Zastron, I think it's Lady Grey, so there was no need for other operations during those areas so I decided then to go and assist.

MS PATEL: I'm confused. You decided to go across or Mr Mtate asked you to come across?

MR DOLO: I said first we did have liaison and then secondly we agreed that I would go to assist him then I said after two weeks prior the attack I did go to Lesotho.

MS PATEL: Okay and you said the reason you went over there was a planning place already and they needed manpower, yet you didn't take any members from your armed unit from Sterkspruit across to Lesotho, whoever assisted you in the operations were people who were there already?

MR DOLO: Yes, I didn't take any member, he needed my involvement, he needed a second person who would command another unit.

MS PATEL: Okay. Can I just ask, Roger and Jabu are code-names?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MS PATEL: You don't know their proper names?

MR DOLO: No I don't know.

MS PATEL: They're not any of the other applicants who are present here today?

MR DOLO: They are not here.

MS PATEL: Okay, alright. You got Mtate at the planning place. What did he say to you in terms of the plan, what information was given to you exactly?

MR DOLO: It's the one I mentioned already, that of those houses there were the first line of defence meaning that those houses were occupied by security personnel.

MS PATEL: Can I just stop you there for a second, did he say that all houses in that street were occupied by security personnel or were specific houses targeted?

MR DOLO: Well, as a military personnel myself from my general understanding would be that the houses that will be manned to the border area, those houses would act as a first line of defence so such houses will be occupied by security personnel as it was the case after all in South Africa. I think it was generally that all parts of South Africa which bordered with other countries, such houses will be occupied by security personnel, that was my general belief, as a security personnel.

MS PATEL: Okay, what did you base that general belief on?

MR DOLO: As I see it, it's the first line of defence, it means if there will be any launch, attack against South Africa, such people have to go through such places, so such people have to have a knowledge of a security, it would have to be knowledge of measures to take in such incidents so such people become security personnel.

MS PATEL: And this is an assumption that you are making, this wasn't based on any reconnoitring that you would have done of the area, it's not based on any other independent information that you would - I 'm just trying to establish what your source was?

MR DOLO: Well it doesn't need to be based on anything, it means that if I was a general, or I was a person to plan for South African Defence that's what I will do, that was what was happening in South Africa after all.

MS PATEL: So you're saying basically that you assumed that because that was the first line of houses on that border area that that would be occupied by security personnel?

MR DOLO: Yes, I did assume but in this case as I was assuming, the person who had the better information for that was Mtate not myself, I was not there at Lesotho.

MS PATEL: Sorry, would you grant me a moment please? Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel.

Mrs Pienaar, is there anything you would like to specifically ask the applicant? I will also give you an opportunity at a later stage if you would like to testify?

MRS PIENAAR: What I would just like to say is that I don't understand that two houses were attacked because on that specific evening only one house was attacked and that was ours and I would also like to say that next to the fence there are no police houses or security houses and they were all in town area and my house was a private house it was not a police house, it was our own property so all the police houses are further inland, in the town area.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dolo, I would just want to put what Mrs Pienaar had informed us now to you for your comment. Mrs Pienaar indicates there was only one house that was attacked at that time in Ficksburg. Have you got any comment on that?

MR DOLO: I said after all from my application that we attacked more than one house, that is meaning to say two houses and the house mentioned in this paper was the one which was attacked by unit of Mtate and we also as I mentioned that the time we were retreating from the other side of the bridge I did launch a grenade launch and then it did explode. We don't know whether from the house or whether it hit anything but it did explode when it touched the ground and after it was very dark at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: So you're not sure about the fact of how many houses were damaged but there were these attacks that were launched?

MR DOLO: From the grenade launch?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DOLO: No I don't know what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: And then the second aspect that Mrs Pienaar has referred to is that there were no police houses as she had put it in that first group of houses but that the police houses only started further down, further into the block. Have you got any comment on that?

MR DOLO: Now I will have it. Firstly from my assumptions of that first, the houses closer to the border area generally would be security personnel and then secondly the information I had was that those houses we went to attack were occupied by security personnel.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Pienaar is it the only aspect which you wanted to say?

MRS PIENAAR: Yes at this moment, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, was there anything further that you wanted to say?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you, just a few aspects I'd like clarity on, Honourable Chairperson. I'm sorry Mr Dolo, I didn't catch your earlier evidence. Did you say that - sorry, how many other houses in that street do you say you attacked besides which you don't know might have been effected by the grenade that was launched once you reached the bridge?

MR DOLO: We attacked two houses, one which is mentioned and then the second one.

MS PATEL: Okay, is that the third house from the left hand side that you refer to, is that the third house from Mrs Pienaar's house?

MR DOLO: I think so.

MS PATEL: Okay and can you give us more details as to how that house was attacked?

MR DOLO: As I mentioned, the purpose of my unit there was partly also to act as a security and also to be engage the enemy, meaning to attack any house whilst the other unit was attacking and due to the fact that it was very dark and the incident happened a very long time ago and that the person have been in quarantine for quite a period of time in prison so I did, I couldn't say from a human factor that well, exactly what happened to that house but what I knew is that we didn't have the Malatov, by Malatov I mean petrol bombs and then secondly we didn't throw any grenades. What we just did there was to just to fire with the guns which we were wielding.

MS PATEL: Okay. You heard Mrs Pienaar say that, you know, she denies that that ever happened, that that third house that you refer to, that that house was ever attacked on that night?

MR DOLO: Well I'm not here to argue with her on that. Maybe she also denied that we did also launch a grenade launch.

MS PATEL: When you got to that specific area, that street, was any specific reconnoitring done on that evening before the attack was launched again?

MR DOLO: During the day, myself I was stationed with two other guys and then the other will come and go so I'm not aware of whether I was there in the reconnaissance during that time but from the information I had was that reconnaissance was done days before the attack so exactly that day he was there in the reconnaissance, I'm not aware.

MS PATEL: Okay, so you say did Mtate tell you that they reconnoitred the place days before the attacks?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MS PATEL: What else did he tell you?

MR DOLO: Like what?

MS PATEL: In terms of the specifics of the reconnoitring or what did they see?

MR DOLO: As I mentioned that we will go - okay there was a specific route we had to use, to infiltrate the enemy and the road to ex-filtrate from the enemy, then that was part of the briefing also or part of the reconnaissance that they did. I was informed of it.

MS PATEL: I'm asking did Mtate tell you what they specifically saw in that street when they were reconnoitring?

MR DOLO: He told me that those houses around that side of South Africa were houses occupied by security personnel meaning that maybe there are SAP people there or SADF members there and also other security people.

MS PATEL: Can you recall whether he would have told you that those security persons were in fact seen in that street when they were reconnoitring a few days beforehand?

MR DOLO: I take it he knew the area better than me and he would be of help to answer that but from my side I said he did have information up to such a length of knowing that really there were security personnel around that area.

MS PATEL: When you were there that evening of the attack did you see any military personnel or security police in that street in that evening?

MR DOLO: Well the time that we retreated there was a return fire from an automatic gun.

MS PATEL: Can you tell ...[intervention]

MR DOLO: From one of the houses there, that's when we decided to launch a grenade launch. There was a return fire from an automatic gun.

MS PATEL: Was it closer to the third house that you refer to that you attacked?

MR DOLO: I think so, I think it was very close from the houses which we were attacking and after I launched a grenade launch there was nothing after that, there was no return fire and that was then we decided to cross the river.

MS PATEL: Okay, can you just to give us an indication in terms of the area, how far from the houses were you when you launched the grenade?

MR DOLO: I was at the bridge from the road, I take it you know the bridge from the road?

MS PATEL: No, I've never been to the area.

MR DOLO: From the bridge to the houses I think it will be plus minus 250 metres, plus minus.

MS PATEL: So it's quite a distance?

MR DOLO: That's quite a distance but from a grenade launch it's effective to stand from 300.

MS PATEL: Okay. Alright, just to move off that incident to the Dunside Farm attack. Can you tell us, was there any reason specifically why that specific farm was chosen or was it just that it was a farm and it was armed by a White person?

MR DOLO: Well we don't need any specific reasons to attack White farmers as they were part and parcel of these Commando structures and who also occupied our land. Our mission politically was to drive them out of those farms then militarily it means we have to execute them in such attacks, by attacking them so there was no specific reason but from the military point of view, when you did an operation, you go for reconnaissance then you have to hit the enemy where he relaxes, you have to take the enemy by surprise. So as I mentioned that prior the day of the attack there was a media statement from the Minister of Defence or the Minister of Police during that time who uttered such a statement that there will be no more other attacks against farmers, specifically in that area so we carry out the operation to show the enemy that we can do, we can continue with the armed struggle, nothing will stop us and secondly, if we were to carry out such operations in such a situation, we then have to go and look for targets, of which we will see them as will be very effective for such an operation and then it will be easy for us to carry out such attacks so that was then we come across such a farm.

MS PATEL: Okay and you stated that the decision to attack this farm was taken by yourself?

MR DOLO: Yes I did take it myself. As a commander, yes I had the authority to do so.

MS PATEL: Okay, you say that you were assisted by Roger and Jabu, is this the same Roger and Jabu who were members of Mtate's unit?

MR DOLO: Yes they were based there at Lesotho.

MS PATEL: Okay so how was it possible for you to make a decision on your own to attack this farm if you were still based in Mtate's area of command?

MR DOLO: Well Mtate at that time was not around, I think he was at Sterkspruit and I think he was arrested there at Sterkspruit so I was the one who had to take over because I acted as his second in command.

MS PATEL: Okay. Alright, thank you Honourable Chairperson.

ADV BOSMAN: Just one question to clarify, Mr Dolo. The house which is mentioned in the first incident, the 143 3rd Street which you say Mr Mtate attacked. Do you know why that particular house was singled out for the attack?

MR DOLO: I will say maybe because it was part of the route we took, that it was the first house maybe we come across because whilst I was leading the advance I was disturbed by dogs in that area then I have to keep on dodging from dogs because they were advancing on me so we added up, have to pass to that house and when they were coming back they decided to maybe attack that one. Further information get it from him why specifically he attacked that one.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you. Thank you Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Honourable Chairperson, if I may for the record confirm that it is in fact the first house in that section.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dolo, to just get perhaps a clearer picture, of your authority as a commander of an Apla unit, do I understand the position correctly, at that time did your organisation have a specific general policy or approach towards security forces, White farmers, these categories of people that you've referred to in the sense that they were regarded as legitimate targets for attack?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: For your struggle?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Now when it comes to the specific target, what was the authority of the commander.

MR DOLO: You mean the one which is mentioned, the houses which was attacked?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we can become specific in a minute I just wanted the sort of general situation. Was it - perhaps I must ask you so I can just understand, was the position that within that broad approach, broad policy of the organisation it is left to the commander to identify a specific target falling within the categories that we've referred to?

MR DOLO: The initiative is that of the commander, it is absolutely from the commander's point of view to target where the specific targets or for that specific area to attack any house, the initiative is left to the commander as we were waiting ...(indistinct), because we were not waiting ...(indistinct) whereby something has to be - the orders have to come from the higher echelons specifically, that is to go and attack this specific target.

CHAIRPERSON: So provided it is within the ambit of the general targets if I might put it that way, the commander on the ground is left with the specific authority to take the initiative?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And from your understanding of the basis for these attacks were they attacks of this nature where either Mtate or yourself took the initiative to attack specific targets falling within the general category?

MR DOLO: Well such attacks I believe were taking place all over the country but there will be other specific attacks whereby they will need approval from the higher echelons.

CHAIRPERSON: But in your instance and that of Mtate?

MR DOLO: Yes in our case as also commanders of those areas we did have authority to carry out and further to that we will liaise with our headquarters in Transkei, brief them of what happened, depending whether you do it prior to the attack or after the attack.

CHAIRPERSON: So if you hadn't liaised prior to the attack you would report on the details of the attack and the outcome of the attack and so on?

MR DOLO: Yes, that's what we will do.

CHAIRPERSON: In these cases what happened, were there any prior reports or subsequent reports or what happened?

MR DOLO: In the case of the house which was attacked I

...(indistinct) that it did inform them prior the attack because he was the person who travelled to Transkei and even after all as I was saying that in the time he was arrested at Transkei so I don't know whether he was there to report the incident or what but in my case of this one, of the farm, I did report after because at that time that I was not there and I was left alone to take the initiative and I had to do something and if you can see even from the dates this one is from the 19th and the other one was on the 10th of the same month.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, of December. Just remind me, which one was the 19th?

MR DOLO: The 19th was the second one, the farm.

CHAIRPERSON: The farm.

MR DOLO: Yes then the other one was house.

CHAIRPERSON: The houses was the 10th?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo have you got any re-examination?

RE-EXAMINATION MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, there's only one I would like to stress, there's only one, it's in terms of chain of command.

Can you tell the Committee what position were you holding in terms of the command structure? We know that there were commanders on the ...(indistinct) unit, commanders - regional commanders up to the last person to the director of operations where some of the instructions were coming from and where you were reporting. Which position were you holding?

MR DOLO: I was the regional commander of Mtate Section or Mtate region which comprised the areas of like Sterkspruit and surrounding areas of it. Zastron, Lady Grey, they were all under my operative.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Do you know which position was held by Mtate?

MR DOLO: Mtate was having the same position for Elisewood, the whole of Elisewood.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I just want to clarify one issue. When you report in the case of a farm attack, when you reported on the attack itself, who did you report to?

MR DOLO: I would report to Letshlapo.

CHAIRPERSON: What was his ...[intervention]

MR DOLO: He was the Director of Operations.

CHAIRPERSON: Director of Operations. Thank you.

Thank you Mr Dolo, you can stand down.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, at this stage Chairperson I will call Oupa Lerato Kgotlhe. Chairperson, applicant will give evidence Sesotho.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes we have an interpreter to assist.

LERATO ABLE KGOTLHE: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Kgotlhe, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Committee, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by it's contents?

MR KGOTLHE: Yes I do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'll proceed and read the affidavit.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mbandazayo, just give us a minute, we just want to make sure that we are actually tuned in properly to the translation.

INTERPRETER: Channel 2 is English. Am I coming through?

CHAIRPERSON: I haven't actually heard the translation of the testimony previously so I wonder if you just don't want to repeat, I'm sorry. Wouldn't you just repeat it Mr Mbandazayo so that we can just make sure that we are all tuned in properly here?

INTERPRETER: Is English coming through?

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Kgotlhe, the affidavit which is in front of you is also before the Honourable Committee. Do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by it's contents?

MR KGOTLHE: Yes I do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I'll proceed and read the affidavit.

INTERPRETER: It seems there's still a problem.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm sorry, we've got to interrupt you again, Mr Mbandazayo. We just want to see, there might be a problem.

INTERPRETER: Check, one, two, three, channel English.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you, we've got that. Alright, you go ahead Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

Chairperson, now I would ask Mr Kgotlhe then just to give clarity on certain issues.

Mr Kgotlhe, Mr Dolo has testified before this Committee and told the Committee that he was called by you from Sterkspruit to assist him. Can you in your own words give full picture to the Committee as to what actually happened, how did you come to the decision that these houses should be attacked?

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Mbandazayo, just before you proceed, just for the record could we just get clarity on this? Mr Kgotlhe, are you also known as Mtate?

MR KGOTLHE: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes you can carry on?

MR KGOTLHE: What I can say is that when this incident happened in Ficksburg I needed comrade Dolo's help because he had the knowledge and some resources because we wanted to carry out some operations on our side in Lesotho.

The instruction was that we should carry out more operations and I had the duty to ensure that they all succeeded. I went to Sterkspruit and we discussed this with Dolo that I received an instruction that we should carry out some instructions on my side and I really needed his help to come and help in my unit. We also discussed the importance of our operations and the reasons why we had to attack that area, that is those houses that is those houses that we ended up attacking.

From the information that I got it was clear that this area and these houses were occupied by the members of the SADF and the South African police. I also indicated to him that I ensured and reconnoitred the place and I also interacted with the people who were working there, domestic workers and I engaged with them in discussions to get information from them as to whether those places were occupied by the members of the regime. That is how I ended up making a decision that we have to attack this place because they were occupied by the security personnel. Those were the reasons why I needed his help and he agreed and he came to my side to give us help.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee why specifically the house at number 143, why did you have to attack that house, specific house?

MR KGOTLHE: Like I've already said, I got information that some of the houses belonged to the security personnel so we took a general decision that if some houses were occupied by the members of the police and the defence force, so our starting point will be to attack all the houses. We knew that it may also happen that some houses were not owned by the South African Police but our general belief was that because most of them were occupied by the police and defence personnel we have to attack all the houses. So it just happened that this house it be one of those houses that we ended up attacking. There were also other houses which were not attacked that day.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's all Chairperson at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Yes thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Kgotlhe, you state that you reconnoitred the area yourself, is that correct?

MR KGOTLHE: That is correct.

MS PATEL: When was this done?

MR KGOTLHE: This was not the first operation in Ficksburg, it was our second operation. When we started reconnoitring the place during our first operation we got information concerning our second attack. It was just a continuous thing. I cannot say specifically how long it took me to reconnoitre the place, it took me some months.

MS PATEL: Mr Dolo said to us that the area - his information from you was that the place had been reconnoitred the previous week. What is your comment on that?

MR KGOTLHE: That is the information that he got from me and there was a rule that we have to have a certain information. So the information that I had it was not necessary for him to have all information that I had so this is some of the information that I gave him, I didn't give him all the information, that is the golden rule as members of Apla.

MS PATEL: No, Mr Kgotlhe, my question to you was very specific. I sought clarity on Mr Dolo's evidence to us here this morning that he had received information from you that the place had been reconnoitred the previous week. Is that correct or not? I'm just asking for clarity on that specific point not on all the other information that you did or didn't give him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I would like to - my learned colleague at least to specify what does it mean the previous week because Mr Dolo also indicated that he went there to Lesotho two weeks before the attack. Which previous week is she referring to?

MR KGOTLHE: Mr Dolo referred to the week prior to the attack.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson exactly, that's what I'm trying to get at because he said he does not know whether it was reconnoitred but he was always with the two others. Mr Kgotlhe kept on going and coming, he does not know whether he was making reconnaissance, that's what he told the Committee. CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I must just now make sure of that, of that detail. Ms Patel, was it in cross-examination that he mentioned that it was reconnoitred the previous week, the week before the attack?

MS PATEL: Yes it was Honourable Chairperson. I think that, I mean I haven't made notes while I was cross-examining but I think I asked him what - whether he in fact had reconnoitred the area that evening and he said no the place had been reconnoitred the previous week and that's what he was told.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no you see my recollection was that he had testified that he had understood that the reconnoitring was done days before the attack and I've just consulted the notes under cross-examination and that confirmed that that was the evidence. My colleagues on the panel have the same note of his testimony so it seems as if he was referring to some days before the attack so perhaps you can put it in that sort of more accurate fashion?

MS PATEL: You heard what was said, Mr Dolo testified that the place was reconnoitred days before the attack, some days before the attack. Can you confirm whether this is in fact correct?

MR KGOTLHE: I will agree with him, that is when he had already left Sterkspruit when he was in Lesotho already, then I will agree with him.

MS PATEL: Okay, can you tell us how many days before the attack the place was reconnoitred?

MR KGOTLHE: Because I was based in Lesotho my reconnaissance was always continuous and I always obtained information. I have already stated that it could have been months, one month or two months because my reconnaissance was being continued then. When he arrived here we already left with some days before the operation and that was then I managed to orientate him about the area and give him some information. What he said does not contradict what happened, he is right. It took us days when he was with us but I cannot specifically say how many days we understood reconnaissance.

MS PATEL: Okay, given that your, as you say your reconnaissance was ongoing and that amongst your sources were the domestics who had been working in that area. Can you tell whether you would have spoken to your sources a week before the attack had taken place?

MR KGOTLHE: Yes I can say it was a week before the operation that I had discussions with some of the workers to verify the information that I already had but that was not the first time that I had discussions with them, that I've already stated.

MS PATEL: And can you say whether the workers that you had spoken to had come from the home of Mrs Pienaar, the home that was in fact attacked?

MR KGOTLHE: Well I cannot say that.

MS PATEL: Sorry, I don't understand your answer, are you saying that you did not speak to anybody from her home or you did or you can't remember, which is it?

MR KGOTLHE: My interest was not confined to that specific house, my interest was in the whole area, it was occupied by the police so I did not have a specific interest in that particular house but that area as a whole, that was where we were focusing our attention.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us how many policemen or members of the security force were living in that section of the street?

MR KGOTLHE: I have already explained that if not all the houses were occupied by the police it is unfortunate that we ended up attacking a house which was not occupied by the police. But I cannot specifically mention the number of houses which were occupied by them because that was not important to us. What was important to us was to carry out the attack like we did. The main reason again why I say the most important thing was an attack was that our understanding was that all the White people, including the police, took part in oppressing the Black people. Our interest was not on Mr Pienaar or Mrs Pienaar or Van der Merwe, all the White people were oppressing the Black people. If it happened that at the end a house that was attacked did not belong to a policeman or a soldier still that house falls under our programme because when we participated in our struggle we never heard who was smiling with us or who loved us or we all treated White people as participants in oppression.

MS PATEL: So, given your explanation to us now, it doesn't really matter whether there were in fact members of the security force living in that area or in that specific street or not, the fact remains that they were White people and so they were legitimate targets in terms of your organisation's policy, is that what you're saying to us Sir?

MR KGOTLHE: I will explain this that it is known that that was the policy of Apla but concerning this operation what drew our interest was the fact that that area was occupied by the police but we knew that we were oppressed by the Whites, that was not a secret, everybody knew about that.

MS PATEL: Okay, if you're saying that you knew that your specific reason for going to that area was because there were police living in the area then at least you must be able to tell us, Sir, in terms of your reconnaissance that was carrying on for at least two months before the incident, you should be able to tell us how many policemen were living in that street?

MR KGOTLHE: I will repeat again and say that the number was not important to us, we never get how many people lived in that street, that's the answer that I give you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Ms Patel, can I just come in here? To get more clarity on this, Mr Kgotlhe, in your discussions with these people who were giving you the information that some of the houses were occupied by members of the security forces, did you bother to find out which particular houses were not occupied by such members of the security forces and which others on the one hand were in fact so occupied, did you try to draw a distinction between the two?

MR KGOTLHE: It may be possible that the house was attacked was occupied by the police, even the neighbour. I will give an example. After this attack on this particular house there was a return fire from that house and this can be testified to by this woman and they used military hardware which they called the ...(indistinct). Those are military weapons, they're only used by the soldiers and the police. Such weapons were used in returning the fire. What I want to say is that this is an indication that when we went there we had the right information. The weapon that was used can either be R1 or R4 unless this woman herself used that weapon then that would be a different story.

Another thing that I want to mention is that this house that was attacked could have been used by the police or they never could have been used by the police or the soldiers.

ADV SANDI: If there was no such information that some of the houses were occupied by members of the security personnel, would you still have launched such an attack in the area?

MR KGOTLHE: We will continue with our attack because oppression was also continuing.

ADV SANDI: Why do you say you were particularly attracted by this information that some houses in the area were occupied by members of the security forces?

MR KGOTLHE: They were the people on the front line, they were on the front line of the defence and naturally they had the interest that we should find against them because they were the people on the front line of the defence of that particular regime. The other thing was that we wanted to get through certain areas into the country so that we could claim a certain area and at the end we could say that those areas were liberated so their presence was disturbing to us because they were there to ensure that they become the obstacle to liberation. That is the reason why we ended up attacking such places.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

Mr Kgotlhe, do I understand you correctly that - I'm just trying to make sense of why you did what you did and the way that you did it that because that was the first row of houses there, you assumed that whoever occupied those houses was security branch or members of security branch would be living in those houses.

CHAIRPERSON: Wasn't that the position of Mr Dolo, is his position not that they reconnoitred or discussed with the servants to find out, isn't that the basis for his conclusion?

MS PATEL: But he also vacillates, Honourable Chairperson, between reconnoitring on the one hand and saying on the other hand that it really didn't matter?

CHAIRPERSON: Well that seems to be a more broader argument on the policy of Apla but he seemed to also say that what formed the basis of this particular attack was the information that there were security force members occupying some of the houses in that particular area, that's how I understood the evidence.

MS PATEL: Let me at least ascertain - let me put it to you simply once again, I've asked you this question before, let me ask it to you again. From your reconnoitring from your speaking to the workers in the area, can you at least give us an indication as to how many people in that street were members of the security forces?

MR KGOTLHE: I think I've already answered that question.

MS PATEL: Well then answer it again please. It's a very specific question, it requires a specific answer, that's all I want, is a specific answer, Sir. I don't want to know from you whether it mattered or not how many people there are, I want to know from you whether you knew how many members of the security branch lived in that street before you attacked?

MR KGOTLHE: No, we did not know.

MS PATEL: So then how do you know if in fact members of the security branch were living in that street if you can't tell us how many there were?

ADV BOSMAN: Ms Patel I don't that security branch it has a very specific meaning, security personnel.

MS PATEL: That's what I meant, security personnel.

MR KGOTLHE: How do you reconcile the fact that we were shot at with an automatic rifle with what you are asking?

MS PATEL: With respect, Sir, I don't want to argue with you but whether you were in fact shot at or not is something that occurred either doing or after the attack according to your version, that is not conceded. I'm still dealing with the information that you had at your disposal prior to the attack so my question to you again is how did you know that in fact anybody in that area who stayed in that street was a member of the security forces?

ADV SANDI: Sorry, I did not understand that to be his evidence, are you saying to him, are you asking him how did he know that anybody who stays in that street was a member of the security forces?

MS PATEL: Yes and I asked him that question specifically because he wasn't able to tell us how many members in that street were in fact members of the security force.

ADV SANDI: I thought he had said the information at his disposal was that some of the residents of that area were members of the security forces. Now I understand you're trying to find out from him how many of such people who were members of the security forces?

MS PATEL: His response to how many was in fact that he did not know. My question now is how does he know at all that anyone in that street who resided in that street was a member of the security forces. It goes to the question, Honourable Committee Member, of what reconnoitring if any was in fact done before the operation was launched?

MR KGOTLHE: I don't understand your question because now you ask me how I found out that those houses were occupied by the security police and at the same time you talk about the reconnaissance. I repeating that again, we did do the reconnaissance and you also agree with me and then again you come back, you ask me how I got that information. Now I become confused because I don't know how to answer you now because you also confirm that we did undertake reconnaissance.

So information we're talking about was the reconnaissance, yes. The only way you get information is through reconnaissance.

ADV SANDI: Yes but my understanding of this question is were you able to confirm what had been said to you by these people that some of the houses in that area were occupied by members of the security forces? Is that the question Ms Patel?

CHAIRPERSON: Well that is now my question, in other words from your reconnoitring, could you confirm when you reconnoitred the area could you see that there were army personnel and police and people in the area, in other words did your reconnoitring confirm the information that this area was occupied by some members of the security forces?

MR KGOTLHE: Let me just this way to say security personnel because in those days the army and the police were one thing. From the reconnaissance that I undertook it happened that during lunch-times I would see that some inhabitants of that area of people who were always armed with pistols and then from there it confirmed the information that I got but because I could see the people who were armed with pistols, they were always armed.

ADV SANDI: Were these people wearing any uniform Mr Kgotlhe?

MR KGOTLHE: No they were not wearing uniforms but what I know the special branch did not wear uniforms.

MS PATEL: For the record Honourable Chairperson, my instructions are to confirm that in fact Mr Roos did in fact wear a pistol and that he was dressed in normal civilian clothing and not in uniform.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Roos?

MS PATEL: Mrs Pienaar's deceased husband.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the late husband a member of the security forces?

MS PATEL: No he wasn't Honourable Chairperson, he was in fact in charge of the mortuary. Whilst a policeman he had been involved in a serious accident two years prior to the incident and was merely involved in administrative duties.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, so he was boarded?

MS PATEL: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Put on light duties because of his injury?

MS PATEL: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay thank you Ms Patel.

MS PATEL: Okay. Mr Kgotlhe, there's just something I've been asked to clarify with you, did you have a map of the house that was attacked?

MR KGOTLHE: We did not.

MS PATEL: Okay, can you tell us on the evening of the attack why you chose that specific house?

MR KGOTLHE: Because it was in the area that we were supposed to attack. What I can say is that we could not attack all the houses there. We did not attack that house because it belonged to Mr Pienaar, we only attacked it because it was in an area that we identified as our target.

MS PATEL: Okay. Can you tell us who threw the hand grenade into the children's bedroom which was - let me just confirm, give me a moment please, thank you.

The children's bedroom was in fact the first point of the attack. Can you tell us who threw the hand grenade into the children's room?

MR KGOTLHE: It's myself.

MS PATEL: Okay did you know whether anybody was in that room or not?

MR KGOTLHE: I did not.

MS PATEL: Okay. Do you know who threw the petrol bombs into the living room, what was known as the living room of the house?

MR KGOTLHE: It was Jabu.

MS PATEL: Okay, now did you have a Jabu in your unit as well as Mr Dolo in his unit because if I recall correctly, Mr Dolo had said that he was with Roger and Jabu when they were at the third house that he referred to that they attacked. Now which Jabu are you referring to, is it the same person?

MR KGOTLHE: What Mr Dolo said was that we were four members in this unit and then we split into two so Mr Dolo went with Roger and then I went the other way with Jabu.

MS PATEL: I'd like to put to you that Mrs Pienaar who was in the house that evening denies that she or anybody else from that house that fired on you and Jabu? What is your comment on that? Sorry is there a problem with your headset? No?

MR KGOTLHE: No, I understand your question well. What I can say is that what is important that we were shot at and he's aware of that, I'm hundred percent sure about that, that we were shot at. She is also aware that sky elements were used and they were aimed at us. Maybe when she says that she did not fire, maybe she can tell this Honourable Committee about the information regarding the person who shot at us. I believe that I came here to tell the truth and I think she also came here to tell us the truth. She can tell this Committee who shot at us, if those shots were not coming from her house.

MS PATEL: In your evidence earlier on, I speak under correction Honourable Chairperson, was your evidence not that you fired at from that specific house?

CHAIRPERSON: No I think it was, if I understood it correctly, it was in that - let's put it this way close, I think the word that was used was close to the house.

MS PATEL: I'd also like to put it to you, Sir, that if you had reconnoitred the area on an ongoing basis and until at least a week beforehand as you had said, and if your sources could be relied on, you would have been informed, Sir, that Mr Roos who was living in that house had in fact died a week before this attack?

MR KGOTLHE: I will explain this, concerning the information that we received, there were not contracted to Apla, they were not members of Apla, I used our agents but because I wanted information and there are many ways of getting information. You may get it directly, you may also get it indirectly so they were doing that unaware that they are providing vital information which may be of use to me as an Apla member or Apla in general so I am trying here to dispel the belief that I once during the course of this hearing said they were reliable informants or whatever. I only indicated here that I provoked them verbally, I used to talk with them and during the course of talking I came to get the information as I have said here. Thank you.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, grant me a moment please? Honourable Chairperson, there's just two aspects, the one is was the home reconnoitred that specific evening of the attack by yourself.

MR KGOTLHE: Before or after that?

MS PATEL: No before the attack did you reconnoitre the house that evening, the evening of the attack?

MR KGOTLHE: It was not necessary for us to reconnoitre that house specifically.

MS PATEL: Can you tell us how long before you attacked the house did you arrive at the house?

MR KGOTLHE: I cannot be sure about the time but it can be between thirty to sixty minutes that can be the time that we spent before the attack. We were not reconnoitring, just observing the movements of the people who were staying in that area but we were on the other side of the road. I'm not sure about the time, it can be between thirty to sixty minutes.

MS PATEL: Did you by any chance see that there were other people at the house that evening about an hour before the attack and that people were coming and going from that house that evening?

MR KGOTLHE: No, I don't remember seeing other person coming out or going into that house.

MS PATEL: Alright. Then just one final thing. Did you intend to kill the occupants of that house, was that your intention when you went there? What was your intention, to merely burn the place or was it to kill the people or both, specifically what was it?

MR KGOTLHE: The same as asking me whether I was there to kill or I must say in any way killings were possible and of course injuring peoples were a possibility too but in an event of course I did expect some killings, and unfortunately there were none.

MS PATEL: Did you say unfortunately there were none? Yes it is in fact unfortunate for you because Mrs Pienaar says as she was trying to flee the house through the back with her two children that even after the grenade was thrown, the petrol bombs were thrown and shots were fired at the house, they were in fact also shot at once they were trying to escape from the house and managed to get into the neighbour's premises. Thank you, Sir, I have no further questions for you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mrs Pienaar is there anything further which you wish to add?

MRS PIENAAR: Not at this stage, I'll get a chance when I give evidence later of what happened, thank you.

ADV BOSMAN: Yes just two questions. The rooms, on what basis did you decide which rooms to attack?

MR KGOTLHE: There was no specific pattern in identifying the rooms that we were going to attack, it just happened that I threw it in that front room and the Molotovs were also thrown in other rooms, it just happened when we arrived, we never had any pattern or a plan in that we made beforehand.

ADV BOSMAN: And then just clarification on the role of Mr Dolo, what exactly was his role to be when you arrived at this house where you attacked?

MR KGOTLHE: They were giving us a cover up in other words they were our security. They were also helping us with observations as we undertaking the attack they will observe what is happening on the neighbourhood. If there was something happening from the neighbourhood then they will respond to that.

MR KGOTLHE: And when they fired was that in response to anything in particular, can you say or can't you say?

MR KGOTLHE: May you please repeat the question?

ADV BOSMAN: At the time when Mr Dolo and Roger when they fired, there was evidence that they fired shots or that they threw a grenade from the bridge, was that in response to something, can you say?

MR KGOTLHE: Yes that is correct.

ADV BOSMAN: What was it?

MR KGOTLHE: Do you mean the action from the residents side or from Dolo's side? I'll explain it in this way. A sky element was used first from the house next door, I'm not sure as to whether it's the second house or the third house from the house attacked. After the sky was eliminated then they started shooting towards our direction. At the time we were following comrade Dolo and Roger because they were in front. Up to the point where we caught up with them, at the time they were responding to the reaction, that is returning fire from the direction where the shots came from up to the point where we crossed the road, that is on the bridge. That is where we started shooting towards the direction of the - the reaction towards the houses. He shot and then he shot again with a rifle grenade and then it exploded. It either exploded on the second house from the house which we attacked with a grenade, a rifle grenade hit there then the other rifle grenade which I launched it did not explode. I understood that the police found that unexploded grenade.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, have you got any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Mr Kgotlhe, in your evidence you said there was another attack which occurred at Ficksburg and you referred to that as the first Ficksburg attack. Is that the one where the old age home was attacked?

MR KGOTLHE: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mbandazayo, has this been set down for, is it one of the matters to be heard?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, it's going to follow after this one and the subject of this hearing. I was just calling him just to confirm the part in the Dolo matter and we are through with it and then we handle it because he's with another applicant in it so I wanted this to be through so that he's with another applicant which is Kuluman in that one.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh, yes we might have had crossed lines there because I would have preferred that he were to deal with all of the injuries that he's applying for, are you saying that in respect of that first Ficksburg attack this applicant was together with the remaining applicant?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And that up to now he's only dealt with the Ficksburg attack which involved Mr Dolo?

MR KGOTLHE: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think perhaps you should just proceed you know and complete his testimony, just to deal with all of the incidents and do the same with the remaining applicants so that by the time that we're finished with that applicant we would have heard all of the testimony in respect of all of the incidents that they're applying amnesty for.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, it's just that Chairperson we had different affidavits in the bundle we don't have the one we are using now in the bundle, you only had one which relates to the old age home.

CHAIRPERSON: Ja.

MR MBANDAZAYO: In the bundle, you didn't have the one for this one, relating to the Dolo matter in regard to Kgotlhe.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: So that's the reason I decided I should start with this one and we are through then I was going to go to the second one, incident which also involved the second applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh I see, no, no then I probably misunderstood you. I was under the impression that you were saying that you were going to let him stand down and then let him come and speak about that at some later stage in the proceedings. No, but I'm with you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: No Chairperson, I was going to proceed to the second application Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Alright, why don't you do that?

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

Chairperson, if I may proceed and read the affidavit of Mr Kgotlhe in regard to the second incident?

Chairperson, just for the clarity of the Committee, Max is the second applicant, Luvuyo Kuluman, Kenneth Kuluman.

Thank you Chairperson.

Mr Kgotlhe, can you take the Committee through with your decision to attack the old age home. Who took the decision and the planning and why was it the specifically the target, the old age home?

MR KGOTLHE: Firstly I would say, at the time when we identified the old age home as a target, it happened that around South Africa, especially in Johannesburg, there were attacks in trains, there were attacks in Boipatong, Sebokeng, around Sebokeng. Black people were killed like flies. Then the understanding of Apla was that Africans were not killing each other as it was purported to be believed. The Africans were killed by people who were hired by Whites so that to bring the idea that Black people don't like one another. After Apla observed that it was unacceptable for Africans to be killed in that way, so it took a step so that it will be able to make Whites feel the pain the same as Africans who felt the pain.

After that I was given an order that I should identify a target around Ficksburg area. The target which would bring pain, more pain which Africans felt at that time because of the killings around Johannesburg in the Vaal Triangle and in the trains. Then I went around Ficksburg area until I come across this area called an old age home. After I came across this area I observed the area for some time as to whether people were residing there. After that I consulted with the director of operations, that is comrade Mphashlele to inform him that I was able to identify a target.

Out of our consultations he gave me a go ahead that I should prepare to attack that particular area. I continued to gather the final details about our security going there and returning back. What I would explain again is that in addition to the plan which we had about the attack about that particular area was that alternatively if it happened that when we arrived at the old age home the ammunitions and the arms that should be left after the attack we would throw them randomly around the houses which were nearby or if it happened that we encountered the police before, those police would be our target and then if they would flee the ammunitions we had there, grenades and Molotovs, would throw them around the houses there.

Our aim was to fight a psychological war so again in addition to our primary objective to push them further from the borders so that we'd be having a territorial advantage near the borders, that is why we were able to attack that old age home. Fortunately, we were not able to come nearer that old age home, then we engaged ourselves with our secondary objective or secondary target. Then I threw a hand grenade next to the house then it fell on the car park then one car was damaged.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Kgotlhe, can you unless I ask you specifically again that now taking into account that these people were old people and they can't do anything for themselves and they were not party to what was happening in the country, why specifically them?

MR KGOTLHE: I would answer that firstly that oppression was not a discretion between age. People who took part in the oppression included old people and young people, we did not have preferential treatment for old age people and when we responded against oppression we had to have a clear objective that oppressors were not different from the age groups, all of them were oppressors. Then again even before they reached that old age state, they come from a certain age, they were members of the youth, they were young and then they were middle aged and they participated in the oppression and when they were old at the stage they took part in the support of apartheid and they benefited from the apartheid itself. Why I'm saying age was not an issue is that firstly the oppressors themselves when they see me they saw me as a boy. My father was regarded as a boy, my grandfather was regarded as a boy, my sister was regarded as a girl, my mother was a girl, so they did not differentiate between the various age groups or they didn't see a difference between me and my father or my grandfather, we were all boys so therefore we did not have a problem to respond to that oppression knowing that there was no young persons and old persons, all of them were oppressors.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Patel, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Sorry Chairperson, just grant me a moment?

When you consulted, Mr Kgotlhe, when you consulted Mr Mpashlele, did you tell him exactly what your target was?

MR KGOTLHE: Yes I did.

MS PATEL: Okay and during your reconnoitring the houses in the vicinity of the old age home did you reconnoitre that section as well, did you know who stayed there or didn't it matter?

MR KGOTLHE: I don't remember well but the most important thing was that the area I'm talking about is situated within town. There is a likelihood that the police station would be around firstly, secondly the houses which were there could have been occupied by members of the security personnel but I don't remember well about the final details in regard to the houses or the occupants surrounding the old age home.

MS PATEL: Do I understand you correctly, you're making an assumption that there was a police station in the area and that those houses were occupied by members of the security forces? That's just an assumption?

MR KGOTLHE: I would say I assumed because this thing happened a long time ago and then some of the final details have slipped my memory.

MS PATEL: Okay, I'd like to put it to you that there isn't in fact a police station near the old age home?

MR KGOTLHE: I would agree with you, I would not dispute, I would not agree.

MS PATEL: And if I understand you correctly, the only thing that mattered was that they were White, was that your victims were White, that the occupiers of the homes in the vicinity were White?

MR KGOTLHE: Yes that is correct.

MS PATEL: You must have known though that there were White people in this country who were involved in the liberation movement, not so?

MR KGOTLHE: Yes I do.

MS PATEL: So can you explain why you painted all White people with the same brush, why you didn't seek to draw a distinction between White people who would have been supportive of the liberation movement and those who were not?

MR KGOTLHE: You'd remember that even Craig Williamson was involved with the ANC. I'd say the oppressors in the liberation movements was not a clear cut idea as to whether no one can win the constituency that here to liberation movements. The oppression was general to the African people then the response to that oppression had to be general to those who took part in the oppression.

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any further questions by the panel?

ADV BOSMAN: Could you just tell us how long before the attack on the houses, I'm now referring to the first incident on which you gave evidence, was this attack on the old age home planned?

MR KGOTLHE: You mean how long it took to be planned?

ADV BOSMAN: No, no, I mean how long before you attacked the houses where you thought there were security personnel, how long before that did you plan the attack on the old age home, when did this attack which you intended for the old age home, when did that take place?

MR KGOTLHE: I'm not quite sure about the actual duration but I would say it happened a month or two weeks, I'm not sure about the actual period.

ADV BOSMAN: I wonder if you then could just clarify for me Mr Kgotlhe, this I don't understand, why were you concerned in the second attack about an area where there was security people living and not in the first attack, that I don't understand?

MR KGOTLHE: Is that in regard to the first application or in regard to the one we're dealing with now.

ADV BOSMAN: No, well my question is in the first application as you call it, you were so concerned whether there were security personnel living in the houses, whilst two weeks earlier it didn't matter to you at all. How did that come about?

MR KGOTLHE: Ja, it's like getting inside a supermarket with the intention of buying an apple but because of the smell of that grape, then you change your mind not to buy an apple and then buy grapes. So here I'm saying it was a question of choice in terms of prioritising the targets and yes, it was about choice, it was not a - we were not that subjective to an extent that only policemen and defence personnel were the only legitimate targets available for us, there were plenty of targets.

ADV BOSMAN: No that I understand, Mr Kgotlhe, what I don't understand is if you'd attacked the police target first and then decided well now we'll go further, I would have understood it in a way but you start off with a very soft target and then move to the important target, that I don't understand, why you exercised your choice in that order?

MR KGOTLHE: Unfortunately oppressors had no soft slaves or victims, they treated us the same way and that concretised our response in that this language of soft targets and hard targets never ever existed in our vocabulary so I don't know which soft targets you are referring to and which are hard but what I know we had targets and our targets were oppressors.

ADV BOSMAN: Mr Kgotlhe, let me try and put it differently because I really do not understand your reasoning at the time. I would have thought that you would have first attacked the target which would have been quite an obstacle, the security people with arms. But instead of starting with them you start with the soft targets and you leave the security people with the arms still there, why did you not attack them first. This is my difficulty, I honestly don't understand your reasoning.

MR KGOTLHE: It would have been vice versa, we may have attacked the police first then came later and attacked - so it's a question of sequence, I understand, so I really am not sure what is the problem about that, choosing soft targets first and hard targets second, I'm not sure what is the problem.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't want to argue with you, I just want to explain my difficulty to you. I would have thought if there was an attack on the police first you may have had some successes there and then it would have been easier to launch a second attack after that, this is how I would have thought, you need not agree with me but do you have any comment on my reasoning?

MR KGOTLHE: So it goes without saying that it was business as usual, the struggle was going on, having chosen soft targets as you like to say or you like us to believe, then to us was not an issue, an issue to us was executing operations and arriving at our end goal which was freedom, that was our main interest.

ADV BOSMAN: I won't take this any further, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Kgotlhe, at the time when you saw the director of operations at that stage had you already formed the - or come to the conclusion that parts of that particular area are occupied by members of the security forces?

MR KGOTLHE: May you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: I want to know at the time when you had your discussions with the director of operations had you already come to the conclusion that parts of that particular area in Ficksburg were occupied by members of the security forces?

MR KGOTLHE: Are you referring specifically to the area which was attacked or Ficksburg as a whole?

CHAIRPERSON: Well let me put in more general, had you already formed the impression or drawn the conclusion that there were certain parts of Ficksburg that were occupied by members of the security forces?

MR KGOTLHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you discuss that with the director of operations as well?

MR KGOTLHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you indicate to him that or did you propose any attacks on those houses that occupy members of the security forces to the director of operations?

MR KGOTLHE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was his attitude about that idea?

MR KGOTLHE: In fact he supported everything I came up with.

CHAIRPERSON: And when you discussed the intended attack on the old age home, did you also brief him on all the other alternative courses of actions, the other options if arms were left over after the attack, you would use it to attack houses and if police were to come you would attack them and so on? In other words did you brief him on all those details that you had in mind?

MR KGOTLHE: Yes he was provided with all the details concerning the attack and it's possible fall backs, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was his attitude towards that, was he also supportive or what was his attitude?

MR KGOTLHE: He supported it whole heartedly.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you report back after the incidents? Well we're talking about this particular incident now, the first.

MR KGOTLHE: Yes it was standard procedure that I should report back.

CHAIRPERSON: And can you recall who you reported to, was it head office or was the director or who was it that you reported to?

MR KGOTLHE: I reported directly to the director of operations.

CHAIRPERSON: And whilst we're talking about that, in the case of the later attack on the houses where Mr Dolo was also involved, did you discuss that particular operation beforehand with the director or did you just carry on with the second one?

MR KGOTLHE: In fact he was made aware after, the only thing which happened there was that he instructed me that I should make the point that there are activities in my region and I should select targets as per my instruction so I used my discretion in this respect and this was done in accordance with the general instruction that all regional commanders have that power to choose this or that target so it was done on discretion and thereafter, that is after the execution, I did go back and he accepted everything which we did.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Mr Mbandazayo have you got any re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson, I'm sorry to come back to you Mr Kgotlhe, I just wondered, why did Nduna and Kenny and Max who were with you in the first attack, first incident, why did they not assist you when you attacked the houses which you believed were the security houses?

MR KGOTLHE: Well as I said we encountered a police patrol vehicle and as a result there was disorganisation which led to them leaving behind those bags which contained Molotovs so I was left with comrade Max behind who had in his possession a bag containing spikes so I will attribute that to panic.

ADV BOSMAN: But what became of them, what became of Kenny and Nduna and did they join up with the unit again?

MR KGOTLHE: Yes after the operation we did meet but the unit - yes I did retain them after the operation, they were part of the unit.

ADV BOSMAN: But when Mr Nduna assisted you, where were they then?

MR KGOTLHE: Well there was a prescribed area or RV whereby we will meet after having executed the mission, so what happened they took that direction of the said RV or rendezvous.

ADV BOSMAN: I don't know whether I'm being a little slow in understanding today but at the time - look if I understand you correctly, Nduna and Kenny and Max were with you when you planned the attack on the old age home, is that correct?

MR KGOTLHE: Yes.

ADV BOSMAN: Now two weeks later, more or less two weeks later, you asked Mr Dolo to assist you, is that correct?

MR KGOTLHE: Oh, in fact I'm sorry because I'm confusing this with the initial operation, I was not aware that you are referring to the one which Mr Dolo was involved. In fact, as I said earlier on, there was this thing or this rule which says each should know according to - I don't want to use the word status, I don't know how can I put it, but something like that, so I could not involve them, that is Jabu and Roger, I could not involve them in the reconnaissance of that operation for some reasons and hence I called upon comrade Dolo to come and assist us in that operation.

ADV BOSMAN: But can't you tell us why you could not engage them, why did Mr Dolo come, why could you not engage them?

MR KGOTLHE: Well I could not include them for obvious reasons that to say firstly reconnaissance is not - I mean it would not have been wise for me to include a group or more than two people into such an activity or into collecting information so I had to limit the number so that if something went astray during the execution or during our advance to the target, I should know who might have betrayed the information or given the information to the third person. So it was all about maintaining consistency and making sure that not all of us are part of the same activity, that is if I was to collect information, that is well and good, I will then come back and report to them when necessary or when time avails itself, that gentlemen, this is so and so, so we will be advancing to our targets on this day so prepare yourself. It was about timing of everything because everything had to be timed, everything had to go according to channels ...[intervention]

ADV BOSMAN: I'm afraid that I'm now even more confused. If you had a unit of five people, at the time when you planned to attack the old age home and you back with your unit you said that you got together again. Why do you now need manpower from another unit to attack in the same area again. Do you see what my difficulty is? Why not use the same unit, it's your unit, you are the commander?

MR KGOTLHE: Well there were plenty of cadres available, I would have changed the whole unit if I wanted to so I'm trying to say here it was not a requirement for that matter to use the same unit in all activities. It was about choosing who would be best suited in this activity and who will not so in this regard I found comrade Dolo to be an appropriate person to fill that gap so hence the said comrades were not included in collecting the information and until the last minute of an operation.

ADV BOSMAN: And not have provided the security, the back up which Dolo provided, could they not have done that?

MR KGOTLHE: They would have provided that but as I have just said it was a question of choice so instead of choosing them I chose - or one of them, I chose comrade Dolo, so it was not a standard requirement that I used them in all operations or in all activities within. You may be for instance a commissar and be my deputy but if matters arise and there is no need that I should consult with you or I mean use you, I may, I have that choice or right to choose who can fill your gap.

ADV. BOSMAN: Was it not unusual as it were to ask someone from another unit who is your equal in rank to come and assist while you have members from your own unit which you could have used? Was that not rather unusual?

MR KGOTLHE: Well there are - everything was unusual. There was no consistency in all the things so as I'm saying everything was unusual so the unusuality of it was never a problem for us.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Can I also just understand Mr Kgotlhe, did you also say that you were in need of a second commander?

MR KGOTLHE: No, I said I just wanted his experience or expertise, that is why I went for him.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Mr Mbandazayo, anything further?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the evidence of the applicant.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence of the applicant, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, Mr Kgotlhe thank you, you can stand down. We will adjourn at this stage for lunch and we will reconvene at 2 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, my next applicant is Lavuyo Kenneth Kuluman. May he be sworn in Chairperson?

LAVUYO KENNETH KULUMAN: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, before I read the affidavit. Mr Kuluman, do you confirm that the name used in the affidavit of Mr Kgotlhe, Max, is your name? Was it your operational name?

MR KULUMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, the affidavit reads thus:

Mr Kuluman, can you tell the Committee when did you become aware of the operation that you were involved in?

MR KULUMAN: I was told on the same day of the attack, I was told on that same day.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you also tell the Committee, just before I follow that, how long have you been in that area before you went to this operation?

MR KULUMAN: Can you please repeat the question, Sir?

MR MBANDAZAYO: How long have you been in that area before you were involved in this operation?

MR KULUMAN: It was my first time to be there on that particular day, the day of the attack.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Where were you coming from?

MR KULUMAN: Our base was in Lesotho, I was stationed in Lesotho.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now who told you about the attack then?

MR KULUMAN: It was Oupa Kgotlhe.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What did he tell you?

MR KULUMAN: He told me to prepare myself because there was going to be an attack in Ficksburg. As I was staying alone I prepared myself and I went together with him. We then met Roger near the river.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes and then what happened?

MR KULUMAN: After we met Roger we crossed the river, we then went to the Ficksburg area. When we got to that area on our way to the old age home we met a police van that disorganised us. Myself and Oupa went to a house that was in a corner. We took cover and then the van passed and then Oupa shot. We then threw the Molotovs in that particular house.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What role did you play yourself, what weapons were you carrying on the day in question?

MR KULUMAN: I had the bag, the bag with spikes and after that shot, after Kgotlhe shot the van.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What was the purpose of the spikes, what were they going to be used for?

MR KULUMAN: They were going to be used to defend us. The van would not be able to go through, they would forced to remove the spikes and then chase us if they wanted to, that would delay time, that was the role of the spikes, to disturb them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Besides the spikes did you play any part in throwing Molotovs or grenades in the house or firing?

MR KULUMAN: Yes there were Molotovs that we threw in that house that we were in with comrade Oupa, in the house that we went in when we saw the police van.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Chairperson at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Patel have you got any questions?

MS PATEL: No thank you, Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume you won't have any re-examinations?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the evidence of the applicant?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence of the applicant Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Kuluman, you are excused.

MR KULUMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you any further witnesses that you wish to call Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson at this stage I won't like to waste time, I've no other witness. The witness I had in mind was going to be the deputy of Letshlape, unfortunately he is involved with the president of the PAC, he went to the airport to collect him. They are rushing to Umtata so I was going to call Bulalani Kluma, the deputy of Letshlape, Chairperson. But in the light of that, Chairperson, that's the evidence of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Patel are you intending to lead any witnesses?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I do not intend to lead any witnesses. However, Mrs Pienaar who is present has something to say. I think she's also willing to take the oath before she does, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Patel.

Mrs Pienaar are you going to testify or are you going to just make a statement?

MRS PIENAAR: I want to testify about what happened.

CORNELIA GETRUDE PIENAAR: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Are you going to render us your evidence?

MRS PIENAAR: Yes I do. Mr Chairman, thank you for the opportunity. I'm a community health worker for the last 20 years in Ficksburg. Since 1989 I was working as a professional nurse in the municipal clinics. I really care for all people with no preference of colour of culture. I established a clinic in a Coloured area because there was a big need. I also rendered a service there myself.

My late husband died the Wednesday before the attack. He was doing light duty at the police station after a serious accident in 1990 where he got brain damage. He was unconscious for two months and started to work only after 6 months.

The house that was attacked was our private home. The

evening after the attack I was alone with my two daughters who were 5 years and 12 years. People visited me that evening because it was the first night that all my family went away after the funeral. They left about 10 o'clock and I went into the house. Then I went and bathed and I put the two girls in my bed to sleep with me. I just put the light off about half past 10, then suddenly I heard the dog barking a lot. I wanted to phone the police but they were engaged at that stage. But just then someone was running past my window and they broke the window at the children's room and they threw in a hand grenade. The roof was really - it was a big story - the doors were out of the hinges and then they started to throw petrol bombs through the living room's window and they started shooting at the house.

We had no weapons in the house because my husband's service revolver was taken in or handed in and we had nothing else in the house. We had weapons and my dad took it with, with the safe to Sasolburg where they stay.

So what we decided to do is because there was a lot of - it set a fire and we were choking in the smoke. So we decided to go through the back door. At the back door there was nobody, they were all in the front. So then we went out of the back door and we went past the garages to the neighbours. There we went over the fence and they kept on shooting on us there because they had a lot of bullets there at that place where we went over the fence.

When we got to the neighbours it was absolute chaos there, they were running around and they had no weapons or anything and all that I want to say there are no houses around my house, the only one is - it's all empty areas, the only house was the one where we went over to and they really had no weapons there. So we went in there and we were all lying in the passage.

Then the army came there, a young guy and he said they were working at the border post and we must please not shoot, we must just lie in the passage and just keep quiet. So we did that.

After about a half an hour or I can't say exactly when, the police came and my children didn't want to stay there they were too scared so they took us to the other side of the town and that's all I know.

And I made a statement and I just want to confirm the contents of that statement.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mrs Pienaar. Mr Mbandazayo, have you got any questions?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Patel have you got any questions?

MS PATEL: No thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Pienaar, thank you very much. You're excused.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume that that concludes the evidence?

Mr Mbandazyo, have you got any submissions?

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Yes Chairperson. Chairperson, I would request the Committee when I'm addressing the Committee to address the Committee in all the applications heard today because my argument will almost be the same in all these incidents. Chairperson, I'm not intending to be long.

Chairperson, my submission is that the applicants have complied with the requirements of Section 20, sub-section 1 and sub-section 2, that they were quite clearly acting on behalf of Apla a publicly known political organisation and liberation movement which was engaged in political struggle against the State at that time.

Chairperson, I'm not intending to go to that section unknown to the Committee. Chairperson, Pila Martin Dolo gave evidence before this Committee and also his affidavit spells out that he is from the Eastern Cape, Uitenhage and that it's clear that when he went there, Chairperson, it was not an area he knows, definitely when he went there he went there for a specific mission and that mission was to persecute the struggle and he has told the Committee what he had done in order to do that. It's the same with Able Kgotlhe, though he is coming from Thaba Nchu which is not far from those areas as compared to Eastern Cape he has told the Committee that he was the Regional Commander of Apla and that he had instructions to seek and identify the target and sought approval where it is necessary and he has done so and in other instances he reported thereafter.

Chairperson I know that there is this sticky question that the reason for the attack is because these people were White and one would come up with an argument and say, if then was the target of PAC and Apla were all White people, what was it the use of making a reconnaissance and to certain targets, policemen, not to just go and attack because you know that in any event even if you attack any white person you'll be within the scope or within the ambit of, within the policy of the organisation.

Chairperson, my argument is that everything goes according to plan and priorities. Even if Chairperson you are my enemy, if I don't want to act against you that particular point in moment, I wouldn't act against you, I'll act against whoever I wanted to act at that time but if it so happened that at that particular point in time you are in the way then happened to act against you, definitely I would say in any event you were also my enemy, in any event you were one of my targets though at that particular point in time you were not my target.

Chairperson, the Committee, I take it has got the submission of the PAC with regard to it's policy towards White people. Chairperson, if I may quote in that document? In that document, Chairperson, they use the quotation of Sobukwe which happened to be also in the affidavit of Luvuyo Kuluman which is the basis of their argument. Chairperson, in that quotation which has been quoted in full in the affidavit of Luvuyo Kuluman was taken from this book, Pan Africanist Congress of Azania, by Robert Sobukwe, all his speeches and his trials are in this book. It was extracted from here by the PAC and in that he was answering questions regarding the policy of PAC towards Whites and after that quotation he was asked another question. That quotation was answering a question

and his answer was that, Chairperson :

Chairperson, I would quote it as a whole but there the analogy of the sjambok that it's a plain dishonesty to say "I hate the sjambok and not the one who wields it" It is in that context that the PAC policy was formulated against Whites, that some would say the enemy is apartheid but to them they say that apartheid is the manifestation of something. People put into practice the apartheid and the people who put so happened that are White people and as such, that is why they were regarded as targets.

The question goes further.

Which was one of the questions which was posed to the applicants.

The second question was:

Sobukwe:

Chairperson, what I'm trying to get at it that the submission that was forwarded by the PAC to the Honourable Committee was extracted from there so from what was given by the applicants in evidence, it's clear that they acted within the policy of the PAC. They did not deviate an inch from that policy, they acted according to that and as such they were taking their orders, of course, from the Director of Operations to whom they were reporting, before and after the operation and in all the instances he approved of that.

Chairperson, I would like also to add to Pila Dolo, Chairperson, that it's clear in his application that he has been involved in many operations which this one was one of those and he has been, in some of these, has been granted amnesty with regard to other applications which of course were the ones still remaining, the Eikenhof incident.

Chairperson, it's clear in all this that he has not acted in any way in all his operations that he did not act for personal gain, he acted in pursuance of the struggle and according to his orders he has been given to persecute the struggle. Therefore Chairperson, it's my humble submission that the three applicants complied with the requirements of the Act and that they should be granted amnesty as applied.

Chairperson, I wouldn't like to dwell much unless the Committee has any questions which they want to pose and I'll be ready to take them.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you. Can you just perhaps deal with the requirement of full disclosure, especially in the light of the evidence that was given by Mrs Pienaar?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, it's my submission that the applicants have made full disclosure inasmuch as far as their memory can serve them. Chairperson, I would like this Committee to take into account that this incident happened in 1992 and it's 1999 now and at the time when they were committing they were involved in the struggle, they never anticipated that on day they will be asked these questions and in most of the cases they don't have records except the reports they have submitted of course which are not available now, they are in the police hands that they have to recall what actually took place. But Chairperson, one cannot dispel the evidence, say the evidence is not correct or it was not a full disclosure with regard to this incident because they told the Committee what their planning and everything they did and how the reconnaissance was done. Of course Chairperson, they did not say that the fire they were shot at came from the house of Mrs - they say it come from that vicinity and that their reconnaissance and information they gathered was that those houses belonged to the security personnel and according to their assumption in that, also according to that thinking, as trained people, they also thought that that information they have is correct because in their thinking that they should be occupied by security personnel because they are in the borders. I don't think, Chairperson, the evidence said that all the houses belonged to security personnel and the information, what has been said by Mrs Pienaar is clear, I don't see any contradiction inasfar as the question of the attack, I think they agree fully with Mr Kgotlhe that the first thing he did was to break the window and thereafter they threw grenades and also that, Chairperson, in a way their are reconnaissance was correct in that her former late husband was a policeman, was indeed a policeman which indicates that in that reconnaissance, in whatever information they collected there was some sort of a substance inasmuch as not all the houses as they also conceded that not all the houses but they found out that the majority of them, according to the information. It may not have been correct, the information Chairperson, it may not have been correct, the information they gathered but at the time when they acted they bona fide believed that they were going there to attack the houses which belonged to the security forces, which Chairperson, I think that is important, what was going on in their minds at the time, they had that belief that what they were going to do was to attack the security forces at that particular point in time. Chairperson, taking that into account, I don't think, Chairperson, there is much except that of course of the memory of the human beings cannot all of them, you know, I always advance the same argument that all of us can witness an incident in this hall but all of us will tell it differently when we are called upon to tell what actually happened and you doubt at the end of the day whether certain people were present or not because they will come up and tell you something which you don't - but it's not necessarily that they are telling lies. It's in the human nature, it's not necessarily that you are telling lies when we go and testify on an incident which were witnessed and we testified differently, it does not necessarily mean you are telling a lie but it may, because our memories, we cannot capture all of us in the same way the happening and it's that I would like that the Committee to take into account that the people who have done this, who were giving evidence, most of them with the exception of Mr Dolo who was released in September last year, the others have been in jail since then and that effects also their condition and their ability to remember and put it properly, the other aspects of the incident. But Chairperson, it's my submission that there is no difference to what has been told by Mrs Pienaar and what the applicants have told this Committee. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Ms Patel, submissions?

MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, I've decided to leave the decision in your capable hands and the reason that I've decided to do that is because on one level the PAC's policy cannot be disputed and secondly, in the words of Mr Kgotlhe, he said that the language of soft and hard targets "never existed in our vocabulary" and on that basis, Honourable Chairperson, I will not argue for or against. Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mbandazyo, the conspiracy or attempt to attack the old age home, do you have any specific submissions to make in regard to that? Don't you think that such conduct could fall fowl of the proportionality requirement?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Yes, Chairperson, true Chairperson, if one would argue in proportionality in relation to what? I think, Chairperson, I always argue and I'll argue even now, I think that's one incident where Mr Kgotlhe put it correctly that after the train massacres and everything they had to do something which will have an impact on the White community and they identified the old age home, but before he executed that, he had to sought an approval which of course was going to be a major thing and he told the Committee that in that incident he had to meet the Director of Operations and seek an approval from him to carry that operation and that approval was given. Now it's always my argument, Chairperson, that proportionality should be made, should be applied to policy makers. The people who are carrying out instructions should not suffer because the policy makers were not involved in the actual execution of the operation. Chairperson, I think Mr Kgotlhe, inasmuch as one would argue about the old age home, I think he has put it, though not much eloquently as I think he would, that before those people, most of them, the old age home, were the same policy makers, were the same oppressors, were benefiting from the oppression. Before they were in that age, what were they doing? They did not grow old overnight. Some of them were involved in the policy making which is with regard to apartheid, oppressing the African people. Just on that, Chairperson, I would like, though it's not that much relevant to this, it does not reflect to the old people, I would like from the mouthpiece of the Apla Azanian Combat quote one submission of one South African academic, a White academic, Gerrie van Staden, and I would like to quote that, Chairperson:

this is what is written by Gerrie van Staden:

Chairperson, this was a shortened version of what was said by Gerrie van Staden. If my memory serves well he was addressing PAC in Harare on this incident, where exactly PAC he told them that inasmuch as he admired the Apla in attacking the security forces, but they have to hit where it mattered most, that the White community, counting himself also, that they live peacefully, there are no threats. He even mentioned that even if you can put a bomb there, without making it to detonate, but you put it there, that would drive fear to the White community, they would know that they are not safe, they would know that the apartheid is evil. Chairperson, if that can come from one of the White members, it shows what type of a sick society South Africa was living in. That of course did not say that only White, when you are referring to Whites it's only ordinary Whites which is middle aged or others, not necessary referring to the old people, the senior citizens of this country. I don't know Chairperson, whether I've tried to address your point on proportionality but my basic argument is that proportionality should be applied to the policy makers. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

We have come to the end of the evidence and the arguments and submissions. We will take time to formulate a decision and we will communicate our decision to all the relevant parties once it is available. We will accordingly reserve our decision and we will adjourn the proceedings for today. We have reached the end of the matters that were enrolled for today. We will recommence the proceedings on Wednesday, 28th April 1999, in this venue at 9 o'clock or as soon thereafter as we are able to start.

It just remains for me to thank Mr Mbandazyo and Ms Patel and Mrs Pienaar for your participation and for the assistance that you had given to us in understanding the matter and assisting us in coming to a decision. We will adjourn.