--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman I wish to call Daniel Snyman.

DANIEL L SNYMAN: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Snyman you are an applicant for amnesty and in terms of Section 21(a) of the Reconciliation Act you have prepared an application and timeously handed it in within the twelve month period from the date of proclamation, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: At the time of this incident concerning Johannes Mabotha, you were a warrant officer stationed at the South African Police services and you were deployed to Section C1 in Vlakplaas under the command of Colonel Eugene de Kock, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you briefly explain to the Committee what training you received with regard to demolitions?

MR SNYMAN: I was an instructor at the counter-insurgency unit for approximately twelve years and after that I was transferred to Vlakplaas.

MR CORNELIUS: And while you were at Vlakplaas did you serve primarily as a demolitions expert among others?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct, I was quite familiar with the training.

MR CORNELIUS: Now with regard to this specific incident pertaining to Johannes Mabotha, if we study your amnesty application, at a stage you state that you were approached by Eugene de Kock and you were given the instruction to go to Penge Mine?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Would you speak up somewhat please? And what were the terms of the instruction, what did Colonel de Kock tell you?

MR SNYMAN: Colonel de Kock told me to arrange an ambush or shooting exercise at Penge mine which was to be held at night and that we had to make the necessary arrangements to prepare the various weapons and go there and just before we departed he informed me that an askari by the name of Mabotha who had apparently been at Vlakplaas before and who had turned and who had been picked up by the Johannesburg security branch would be taken there and that apparently he would be taken out there as a result of the fact that he posed a danger for any further information which he could give to the ANC with regard to the security branch of Johannesburg, the Soweto people as well as members of Vlakplaas whom he had worked with.

MR CORNELIUS: Very well, let us just take this step by step. You say that you had certain weapons and explosives which you prepared and packed?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What type of explosives did you take?

MR SNYMAN: We took commercial explosives as well as military explosives, if I recall correctly we probably also had certain mines and machine guns, yes machine guns.

MR CORNELIUS: And is it correct that there were 25 kilograms of military explosives?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What was the purpose behind that?

MR SNYMAN: It would have been to destroy the body.

MR CORNELIUS: I see. Did you and Snor Vermeulen the previous applicant transfer the weapons and explosives to Penge Mine?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You used the term to be taken out, did you mean that when Colonel de Kock told you that this Mabotha would be taken out he would indeed be killed?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is what I inferred.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask you something? I forgot to ask yesterday, while you're dealing with the question of explosives, the word to ...(indistinct) was it that they said they tied the body up with?

MR CORNELIUS: I understand it's cortex.

CHAIRPERSON: Cortex. What is that? Is it some sort of?

MR SNYMAN: Cortex is an explosive but it's in the form of a rope or as a cable, it is a long ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: So you could use it as a rope?

MR SNYMAN: You could use it like a rope.

CHAIRPERSON: But it explodes itself?

MR SNYMAN: The whole cortex exploded, not like a fuse that just burns.

CHAIRPERSON: Dangerous stuff. Thank you.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Chair.

This cortex, does it also serve as a detonator?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, it could have the same purpose as a detonator.

MR CORNELIUS: So if this cortex was wound around 25 kilograms of explosives it would lead to quite a great explosion?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: If an askari were to turn as you have said and go back to the place of this former military training or uMkhonto weSizwe or whatever the place would be, would this pose a danger for the security forces?

MR SNYMAN: Yes it would definitely have posed a great danger as a result of the information which he may have had concerning the methods of work that the Vlakplaas members used, especially the askaris who had worked with him and what their activities were and where they resided as well as the families of the police members and so forth.

MR CORNELIUS: If a fellow askari would return to the ANC and make this information known to the ANC in terms of who were askaris, it would by nature of the situation place the lives of those fellow askaris in jeopardy?

MR SNYMAN: Yes especially the askaris because they were his former cohorts and they would be the primary targets to be taken out by the ANC because they were co-operating with the SAP.

CHAIRPERSON: While we're on this, something I thought of last night, again didn't ask yesterday, had he might well be a danger to people who were not from Vlakplaas or at Vlakplaas but to other police or security police people in the light of the fact that according to Exhibit Mabotha 9(d), he was detained and interrogated for nine months before he joined the police force. Now during those nine months he may well have got to know the great many policemen, perhaps other detainees and things of that nature, is that so?

MR SNYMAN: That is so, he would have learnt more about them.

CHAIRPERSON: So when his danger was being considered, it would be considered over the whole period, not just the last few weeks?

MR SNYMAN: No, it would have been the whole time that he was involved with the SAP where he could have gathered information.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chair.

So did the regard the order which De Kock gave you as an order which you would carry out which fell within the limitations of the political objective of that time?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, I accepted it as thus as a result of the fact that he would have been a great danger for the security forces.

MR CORNELIUS: At all times you executed the orders of Colonel de Kock?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What would have taken place if you had not done so?

MR SNYMAN: We would probably have ended up in serious trouble if it would have happened that we ourselves turned against the security forces, we may have walked the same road as Mabotha for example or other persons.

MR CORNELIUS: You yourself would have become a risk for your unit as a result of the knowledge that you had?

MR SNYMAN: Yes I would definitely have been a risk as the result of the knowledge that I had and the co-operation that I'd given and the fact that I already knew what had happened there.

MR CORNELIUS: And as it has been said you would have had a very difficult life in the police forces?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: At all times you believed bona fide in the orders which Colonel de Kock issued to you?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: That he had made a reasonable evaluation of the situation, that it was necessary to eliminate this person?

MR SNYMAN: No, I never doubted it.

MR CORNELIUS: When you arrived at Penge Mine, did you and I assume N J Vermeulen then prepare the terrain?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, we investigated which place we could use for the ambush exercise and I think that earlier that afternoon we had already arranged for the necessary cables that would be required for the operation and also the places where we would set up the machine guns.

MR CORNELIUS: Very well, I don't think you've read the evidence in Wouter Mentz's amnesty application but he states that there was a chair inside a hole that had been dug with explosives below it. What do you have to say about that?

MR SNYMAN: No, I have nothing to say about this, it's the first time that I hear about it.

MR CORNELIUS: Was there any chair on the scene?

MR SNYMAN: No, there was no chair.

MR CORNELIUS: Where did you place the 25 kilograms of explosives?

MR SNYMAN: I think we placed it at the bottom of the quarry, I don't know whether it was earlier on in the day but I do believe that it was just before the decision was taken to take Mabotha there, that Vermeulen and I took it there because that place itself was quite a distance from our base and the house where we would stay, so we wouldn't have left it out there in the open, we must have taken it there shortly before the time.

MR CORNELIUS: Were you present when Mabotha was questioned?

MR SNYMAN: No, I don't know which questions were put to him. At that stage I was not present during the interrogation at Penge.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you yourself say anything to Mabotha?

MR SNYMAN: No, I did not talk to him and I didn't know him at all.

MR CORNELIUS: When did you see Colonel de Kock and the other members again?

MR SNYMAN: They arrived there, I'm not certain at what time, probably about 8 o'clock or so in the evening. This was after Vermeulen and I had already arrived there that afternoon just before dark.

MR CORNELIUS: Thus it was already dark when they moved into the quarry.

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What was your participation in the quarry?

MR SNYMAN: Mostly I sat with one of the machine guns at a point where I had a view over the whole area. At a certain stage I was down in the bottom of the quarry after Mabotha had been shot but then I returned to my position.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you see who shot Johannes Mabotha?

MR SNYMAN: No, I did not see who shot him, I later heard that it had been Mr de Kock.

MR CORNELIUS: You heard two shots?

MR SNYMAN: I cannot recall whether it was one or two, it may have been one or two because the environment contained many cliffs and therefore a high level of resonation so I didn't really pay attention to how many shots were fired.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you see the body of Mr Mabotha?

MR SNYMAN: Yes I saw they were busy placing explosives on the body.

MR CORNELIUS: At that stage you moved out to your position with the machine gun?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You did not participate in the removal of the clothing on the body and the placement of the explosives?

MR SNYMAN: No, I did not participate in it, I did however see that this took place.

MR CORNELIUS: And we know that this was Vermeulen and Britz who participated in these actions?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: So if in the other applications there is a reference indicating that you participated in the placement of explosives on the body it would not be correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: But it was dark?

MR SNYMAN: Yes it was very dark.

MR CORNELIUS: After the explosives had been prepared, everybody must have moved out of the quarry?

MR SNYMAN: Yes. After the explosives had been set, the persons moved back to the safe area to the shelter and from there Mr Britz gave the signal that the explosion was to take place and I began to fire with my machine gun and Vermeulen began to fire.

MR CORNELIUS: You have explained that the signal would be a small explosive device that would be set off which would indicate that everybody was to open fire?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, usually an ambush would be set especially if one was using a mine or an explosive. That explosive would first be set off and then shots would be fired with the firearm.

MR CORNELIUS: You and some of the members remained behind while Wouter Mentz, Eugene de Kock and Flores returned to Pretoria?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct, we spent the evening there and the following morning. We took care of the scene.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you take any alcohol to the scene?

MR SNYMAN: Yes we did.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you consume any liquor before the operation was executed and before the body of Johannes Mabotha was blown up?

MR SNYMAN: No, we did not consume any liquor, we would not have had anything to drink as a result of the fact that we were working with explosives and firearms and because it was dark.

MR CORNELIUS: So you say it would have been dangerous to use liquor while you were working with explosives?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And what was Mr de Kock's attitude towards members of Vlakplaas who consumed liquor before an operation?

MR SNYMAN: Nobody ever drank and nobody was ever allowed to drink any liquor before any operation. I think that he had previously chased persons away who he had found having liquor.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes so he was very strict about it?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: After the operation had been completed you must have had something to eat, braaied some meat and so forth and had some drinks?

MR SNYMAN: Yes we had some drinks and braaied some meat and spent the evening there.

MR CORNELIUS: The following morning, I think it was part of your operation to search the area for any signs of remains?

MR SNYMAN: Yes I did that and I didn't find anything. We fired a few more shots there and threw a couple of phosphorus grenades.

MR CORNELIUS: I understand from the previous applicant that the clothing of Johannes Mabotha was burned?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct, they burned the clothing on a fire.

MR CORNELIUS: You don't know whether his pockets were searched?

MR SNYMAN: No, I don't know, I wasn't present if such a thing was done.

MR CORNELIUS: You acted at all times within the scope of your duties?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And purely on the principle of need to know?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you question Mr de Kock with regard to possible previous interrogations or torture of Johannes Mabotha?

MR SNYMAN: No, I didn't ask anything, I must have heard that he had been interrogated by other security personnel.

MR CORNELIUS: Although you have committed gross human rights violations you have acted bona fide at all times with the objective to combat the onslaught of the PAC/ANC alliance on the then republic, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you receive any bonus or any form of financial remuneration for your action at Penge Mine?

MR SNYMAN: No, I received nothing.

MR CORNELIUS: Just your usual salary?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And did you have any vengeful or malicious feelings towards Johannes Mabotha?

MR SNYMAN: No, I didn't. As I have already stated I didn't know him personally, I simply accepted him as a terrorist.

MR CORNELIUS: And you have made a full disclosure of facts with regard to the incident and you have given your full co-operation to the investigating officers of the TRC?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You request amnesty for the murder of Johannes Mabotha.

MR SNYMAN: Correct.

MR CORNELIUS: The destruction of the body?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Transgressions in terms of the Arms and Ammunitions Act, transgressions in terms of the Dangerous Weapons Act and the Explosives Act as well for intimidation and the fact that you defeated the ends of justice?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Cornelius, did he say he is seeking amnesty for offences committed under the intimidation Act? What was the intimidation about?

MR CORNELIUS: There was a certain amount of involvement as far as intimidation as far as Johannes Mabotha was concerned at the scene itself before he was murdered. There was a type of enquiry held on him, we don't know exactly what happened there, he was involved but as far as his participation in that whole scene is concerned, he wants to cover himself fully and he requires amnesty for that.

CHAIRPERSON: As I said at previous hearings and I will repeat now, we would be obliged if full details are handed in of the events for which amnesty is asked for. I know you have been leading the evidence but we would like to have it from you in writing as well.

MR CORNELIUS: I will attend to that Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: All of you.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes I have finished, thank you Mr Chair.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chair. Hattingh on behalf of De Kock.

Mr Snyman you have now explained why Mr Mabotha was a danger because of the knowledge that he had but did you also hear that he went back? Before his arrest did he go back to the ANC?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, that is what I heard. From the time he left Vlakplaas that he had mixed with the ANC people and he had worked for them before he was again arrested?

MR HATTINGH: And that he had joined up with Mrs Winnie Mandela's soccer club?

MR SNYMAN: Yes this is what I had heard but I don't know about further investigations or the questioning that was done there but that he had indeed had gone over to the ANC after he had left, that I knew.

MR HATTINGH: And did you also know that he was a member of MK?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And in that respect he was well trained in the art of weaponry and acts of terror?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And did you also think that because of his involvement with the ANC that he might be a danger because he might become involved with acts of terror?

MR SNYMAN: Well he could have become involved at any time, he might have been a greater danger because of the fact that he was already an askari and then turned and went back.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, can I ask you something there? You said in the course of the questions you were asked that you didn't know about the interrogation?

MR SNYMAN: No the interrogation that took place apparently at Marble Hall I did not know about. I was informed just before we left for Penge, I was informed that he had been questioned by people from Jo'burg in this case Soweto branch.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know that he had in fact been arrested and been in custody for about six months?

MR SNYMAN: I didn't know it no, exactly how long.

CHAIRPERSON: But a long period?

MR SNYMAN: He had been in custody, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You knew that?

MR SNYMAN: I knew that, I was informed about that.

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Hattingh, just one thing? Mr Snyman, on this day when Mr de Kock comes and give you the instructions, did you have an idea as to who he was talking about?

MR SNYMAN: At that time I did not know, as I say I did not know Mr Mabotha but I was told about him, I was informed what type of person he was, where he came from and what the reason was that he had.

ADV SANDI: In other words you knew that there was an askari who had disappeared?

MR SNYMAN: Yes I was informed about that.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Hattingh.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, we have here a bundle of photographs which we haven't made available as yet because we intend, they are relevant to the Nelspruit Cluster, the Nelspruit incident but it might be of assistance to the Committee to see what the Penge Mine looked like at the time and we thought that maybe you would want to have a look at these photographs. Unfortunately, Mr Chairman, these photographs were taken when we went there on an inspection and we had an expert with us who took the photographs. We only have one bundle of originals and then we've made photostat copies for the other Members of the Committee and the parties involved. Unfortunately some of the photographs didn't photostat that well because of the lighting and so on but may I, before I hand it up, the original to you, show it to the witness for him to identify the area, Mr Chairman. In the meantime may I request to hand up photostat copies of the documents.

CHAIRPERSON: And can I say if anybody wants to satisfy themselves about any detail, they're quite at liberty to come and look at the originals.

MR HATTINGH: May I proceed Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you.

Mr Snyman I will show the original to you because some of the photostats are not very clear.

Mr Chairman, may I also just indicate that if certain positions are being indicated on these photographs they are not relevant to this incident, they relate to the Nelspruit incident.

Would you please have a look at photo one, please tell us what appears on photo one? This is in the vicinity of Penge Village that was used there, the mine village. These photos were taken on the 8th December 1994, that is to say after you had destroyed Mr Mabotha's body there. The mine village that you see there, are these the buildings in the background? On the left this piece here is the mine village itself if I look at from here, this would be the mine village where the mine is still used and the buildings on the photostats it's just white spots that are there, do you know what those are? May I show you to what I am referring to?

If you don't know please tell us.

MR SNYMAN: As I've said this photo looks like the Penge Mine itself which was still productive if I look at the photo.

MR HATTINGH: Let's go to photo two, what do you see on photo two?

MR SNYMAN: Photo two is exactly there where a circle is drawn. The hole that is there one cannot see it clearly on this photo but there's a hole on the foreground which is not indicated clearly and this was the hole that was used to blow up the body.

MR HATTINGH: Do I understand you correctly, the circle was drawn in the vicinity where it seems there's a large hole. Is that the hole which you are referring to?

MR SNYMAN: This is the one that's in the foreground that one cannot see clearly but there's a hole there on the foreground, the foreground is even and there are some embankments and then behind that there are some more embankments.

MR HATTINGH: Photo three is just a photo which indicates the area where the mine is situated and photo four is also a photo which indicates the asbestos remains which formed the embankments there. If I look at it then it seems like one can see the hole in the foreground but it's not very clear but there's the hole there and the embankment in the background. Photo five indicates some positions that does not have any relevance to the Mabotha matter but this gives us an indication of how high the embankments are that we are referring to?

MR SNYMAN: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And on photo six we get a good indication as to how uneven the terrain is there and how high the embankments are?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Photo seven is just a hole that is relevant for the Nelspruit incident. Photo eight just gives us an indication as to what the terrain looks like, do you know in the space where they are standing there, this is not the whole that you referred to? It seems like this is inside that quarry and the terrain is uneven, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: Yes it's very uneven.

MR HATTINGH: And the embankments are made up of loose stones and asbestos remains?

MR SNYMAN: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: The holes that one can see there, Mr Snyman, if I can take you back to that? On photo number five and six and seven and eight, the hollows which the persons are standing in, do you know what caused those holes?

MR SNYMAN: If I look at it, it might have been explosives because on several occasions we took old weapons and mortars and destroyed it there during exercises.

MR HATTINGH: So explosives were regularly used and explosive devices were regularly used on these premises before the Mabotha incident?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no further questions, I do not know whether you wish to mark the bundle of photographs as an exhibit?

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps we should

MR HATTINGH: It would then be Mabotha E, Mr Chairman. May I hand up to you the originals and then we have no further questions thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do any of you gentlemen wish to see this before you question? Having looked at photograph one I think it's a pity we can't go on an inspection.

MR LAMEY: Thank you Mr Chairman, Lamey on behalf of Klopper, I've got no questions.

NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, Roelof du Plessis on behalf of Mentz, I've got one or two questions.

Mr Snyman, I just want to ask you questions about the use of liquor. The other persons who had testified before you, Mr Britz and Vermeulen, they said that you consumed alcohol after Mr Mabotha was shot, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR DU PLESSIS: And they've also said that they did not use alcohol before the shooting incident. You were not in the presence of Wouter Mentz continually there at Penge Mine?

MR SNYMAN: No I was not.

MR DU PLESSIS: So if Wouter Mentz says that he consumed liquor beforehand you cannot dispute it?

MR SNYMAN: No I cannot.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER: Jan Wagener, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Snyman, how long did you serve under the command of Mr de Kock?

MR SNYMAN: Approximately four years Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: Can you give us an indication as from when to when?

MR SNYMAN: It was the end of 1988 and up to the time that C Section 1 broke up. This was at the beginning of '93 I think.

MR WAGENER: So when you arrived at Vlakplaas he was already the commander there?

MR SNYMAN: Yes he was the commander there.

MR WAGENER: Did you receive a rank at Vlakplaas?

MR SNYMAN: I was a warrant officer.

MR WAGENER: You have said here this morning that when you left for Penge Mine you already knew that Mabotha would be killed there?

MR SNYMAN: Yes I was informed that it would happen just before we left.

MR WAGENER: And on a question put to you about what would have happened to you if you refused to carry out your instructions you said that you would be in serious trouble if you did not comply with the instructions?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: Here Mr de Kock words to the effect "come to Penge Mine, we are going to kill somebody, yes we're going to kill somebody there." What would happen to you if you said "I refuse to accompany you."

MR SNYMAN: I don't think it was an instruction to say come with me, let's go and kill someone, it was for the purposes of work, it was in the interests of the State. I accepted it as my duty because of the fact that I was a member of Vlakplaas and a member of the security forces.

MR WAGENER: And what trouble would you encounter if you did not obey the instructions?

MR SNYMAN: As I had said I would have been cast out in the eyes of the security forces as well it might have been decided that I could be a security risk, I would walk the same path as Mabotha.

MR WAGENER: Do you mean by this that if you refused instructions like these that you could also have been killed by your colleagues from Vlakplaas, is that what you're saying?

MR SNYMAN: I would not say not specifically by members of Vlakplaas but it could not have been excluded that an accident be arranged for a person who would possibly be a danger for the security forces.

MR WAGENER: So somebody - they would have murdered you too?

MR SNYMAN: I would not regard it as unrealistic that something like that could happen.

MR WAGENER: Mr Snyman, were you afraid of Mr de Kock, your commander?

MR SNYMAN: I will not say that I was scared of him, I had much respect for him, I knew him for a few years. I was not under his command, I was at the counter-insurgency unit, we rendered some service in Ovamboland and that is where I met him and I worked there with him but I was not under his command there.

MR WAGENER: Mr Britz said here yesterday that - I think he said that he had respect for Mr de Kock but this went hand in hand with some fear, did you hear that?

MR SNYMAN: I won't say that I listened to it all but while you mention it now it's possible that he might have said but I cannot recall his specific words.

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Chairman, the question was if he had fear for De Kock and he answered, he said he had respect, so it wasn't "koppeld aan vrees", it was under testimony.

MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, no, the question was answered "I respected him but it was with an extent of fear" The word "vrees" was used.

Mr Snyman, what I want to ask you is, you and your colleagues at your level, those who were at your rank, am I wrong to say I get the impression that you feared for your lives if you disobeyed instructions from Mr de Kock?

MR SNYMAN: I don't think it was a matter of fearing for your life if you did not comply with an instruction but as I said it's not a matter that Mr de Kock would pull out a gun and shoot me because I was not obeying my instruction, but I had no fear that he would just whip out a firearm and shoot me, I saw it as a duty that I had to perform.

MR WAGENER: Because if you didn't do it some accident might happen to you, I think that is what you said.

MR SNYMAN: I think it has happened to persons in the security forces before, that is not an uncommon thing in the security or what shall I say, in the espionage world that such things happen.

MR WAGENER: Have you ever refused an instruction from Mr de Kock?

MR SNYMAN: Not that I know of, no.

MR WAGENER: So to use an old cliché, if he says jump in the fire then you jump in the fire?

MR SNYMAN: I wouldn't see it in that light when he says jump in the fire, as I say the instruction was reasonable to me in the execution of my duties when I received an instruction and it seemed reasonable to me and within the scope of my duty and to protect my country I would obey these instructions. I would not just go and blow up anybody for the joke of it.

MR WAGENER: While you were there at the mine were any alternatives considered with regard to Mr Mabotha besides killing him?

MR SNYMAN: I don't know.

MR WAGENER: I see you say in your application on page 68 as well as on page 100 that at some stage De Kock came to you and said there is no other way out, Mabotha has to be killed. Did you see that as in your application?

MR SNYMAN: That is how I wrote it in my application and that is how I said it but now I can say that I understood that it is time to go and to get the work done.

MR WAGENER: So from the time you departed from Pretoria there was actually no other way out?

MR SNYMAN: Not one that I could think of at that time. If Mr de Kock said he took another decision at that stage then I would accord with that decision because he was the commander.

MR WAGENER: Thank you Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman, Rossouw.

Mr Snyman, you are very clear that when you left from Vlakplaas with the arms and explosives you knew that Mr Mabotha would be killed?

MR SNYMAN: Yes that is correct, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: So the purpose was not to go interrogate him firstly?

MR SNYMAN: No, I understood that he would probably be asked a few questions but as I said with the questioning I had no involvement there.

MR ROSSOUW: I just ask you because emanating from questions that Mr Wagener asked you on page 67 and 68 of your statement it seems that you say in paragraph 3 that Mabotha would be taken to Penge Mine to be questioned and then later you say "at some stage in the evening Mr de Kock told us that there was no other way out and that the person had to be killed." It seems that the impression is the initial purpose was just interrogation, this did not work and then there was no other alternative to kill him. So you would say that the statement does not give the correct meaning there that you wanted to give?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, if I have a look at it, it is not the correct meaning but I knew it would happen and as I also understood or I believed and I thought or my perception was that if Colonel de Kock was satisfied, whether he questioned him again or whatever, maybe he decided that to detain him I don't know. With the questioning I had nothing to do.

MR ROSSOUW: I will accept that, okay. This person, Mr Mabotha, you did not know him as an askari at Vlakplaas?

MR SNYMAN: Yes he had walked off before I started working there.

MR ROSSOUW: And when you heard that he had deserted Vlakplaas for yourself, is your evidence correct that your own inference was that he was a security risk?

MR SNYMAN: It was not just an inference I drew, it was reality.

MR ROSSOUW: And the reality and the possibility existed that he could place other members of the security branch in danger because of the information that he had about them?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: And you have answered on questions that you accepted that he would become involved with the ANC and he would be involved with acts of terror?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: Was it said to you that he would again become involved in terrorism activities?

MR SNYMAN: As I've said before we departed I was involved more in the light that he had already given his co-operation to the ANC again in the Soweto environment.

MR ROSSOUW: Yes, but what I'm asking you is whether it was specifically said to you that he was involved in attacks of terrorism and specifically attacks during which policemen had been killed?

MR SNYMAN: I would not be able to say whether that was specifically told to me.

MR ROSSOUW: You cannot recall that?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, I cannot recall it.

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman, I've no further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARIBANA: J A C Maribana for Mabotha family.

Mr Snyman I've got just two questions for you. One we were told or were informed about Mr Mabotha that he was an ex askari, he defected back to the ANC. Before that, did you have any knowledge of that? You were informed, or let me just say it, before I understand that you were informed at the time you were requested to take the explosive to Benjamin is that not so?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR MARIBANA: So what I'm saying is that before that, were you ever informed or did you have any knowledge that Mr Mabotha did this, you were informed prior?

MR SNYMAN: Yes I was informed about his movements and about what he did before I left Pretoria.

MR MARIBANA: And ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: On that day before you left Pretoria or had you over a period heard about it?

MR SNYMAN: I heard about it that same day that we left Pretoria, I had not heard about him before.

CHAIRPERSON: Hadn't you heard when you got to Vlakplaas that one of the askaris had done a bunk?

MR SNYMAN: I didn't hear specifically about that one, as I say I was more in the line of training at that moment, I wasn't in the investigation.

MR MARIBANA: And did Mr de Kock maybe tell you from whom did he receive that information?

MR SNYMAN: It was from the Johannesburg security branch or in this case Soweto. I said Johannesburg, to me it was the same.

MR MARIBANA: And you didn't want to know more afterwards, is that so?

MR SNYMAN: Just repeat again?

MR MARIBANA: After you were being informed?

MR SNYMAN: Yes?

MR MARIBANA: About the profile or the later profile of Mr Mabotha, you didn't want to know or to find out more about him, is that so?

MR SNYMAN: I had no reason to question any further due to the fact that the decision was made for us to go there so the necessary investigation must have been done by Soweto and whoever may have been concerned.

MR MARIBANA: And Mr Snyman, would you actually be able to tell this Honourable Committee as to who did dig up the hole where the body of Mr Mabotha was place?

MR SNYMAN: That who did what?

MR MARIBANA: Dig the hole?

MR SNYMAN: I don't know that there was a hole dug there.

MR MARIBANA: But isn't it that the body of Mr Mabotha was placed in a hole where the explosive was?

MR SNYMAN: Was set? At the time I went down into the hole Mr Britz and Vermeulen were busy, there was no hole where they were busy, they had just placed the explosives against the body or the body against the explosives. There was no hole and there was no chair as what they said.

MR MARIBANA: And from this exhibit, I mean this thing Mabotha A, you were shown the photographs of Benjamin. On photo two, will you please just refresh my memory, what does this circle indicate on this photo two?

MR SNYMAN: That that you see in the background there is mine dumps, it is asbestos dumps, discarded asbestos, that is what you see there. In the front, before you get to those mine dumps that are at the back there, there is a big hole and I think if you have a look a bit further, there's a person standing in the hole and another person standing next to it, next to a tree. That is in the hole in the foreground in the bottom of that hole there which you cannot see on photo number two very clearly. But in the area where that little circle is drawn, right in the foreground before those mine heaps start at the back there's this deep hole where the people are standing in.

MR MARIBANA: Thanks Mr Snyman. And then these are the holes which you have just indicated that might have been caused by the explosives, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, those holes could have been caused by explosives Mr Chairperson.

MR MARIBANA: And then if one understands you correctly, the explosives which were used to blow up Mr Mabotha's body were put in that type of a hole, is that true?

MR SNYMAN: No, it does not necessarily have to be put in a hole. If you put the explosives on the ground, the explosives will make a hole like that.

MR MARIBANA: Thank you Mr Snyman.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Maribana. I thought Mr Hattingh, when he submitted these photographs had said they had not been taken for purposes of this enquiry into the Mabotha incident but just to give us some sense of the physical terrain of this Penge area, not so Mr Hattingh?

MR HATTINGH: That is correct Mr Chairman, the circle relates to the Tiso matter and not to the Mabotha matter.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

MR MARIBANA: Thank you Mr Chairman for that clarity. I've got no further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, Ramula Patel.

Sir, can you tell us that whether you had to drive to the quarry from the point where Mr Mabotha had been brought to Penge Mine?

MR SNYMAN: Yes we had to drive there, it was I wouldn't say a kilometre but probably close to a kilometre from the old houses which were used as a base when we did training there to the specific hole where explosion took place.

MS PATEL: Okay, had you gone ahead of Mr de Kock?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MS PATEL: To the quarry, okay. And do I understand you correctly, your role there was merely a lookout in a sense, at the quarry itself?

MR SNYMAN: That is what I actually most of the time did but I was available to do any other work which would be necessary.

MS PATEL: Okay fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Well your role was also as I understood it to provide the cover fire to the explosion?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairman.

MS PATEL: You must have seen Mr Mabotha when he was brought down into the quarry, not so?

MR SNYMAN: I did not see him at that time, I saw him when we were still at the base at the house where we waited for Mr de Kock and then I saw when they arrived there. I didn't speak to him, I didn't know him and it was a short time after that I think that Mr de Kock and them arrived and I think then we were told to perhaps go and prepare the place, to put up the ambush site and but Mr Mabotha, I didn't speak to him at all.

MS PATEL: No, my question was did you see him when he was brought down into the quarry itself?

MR SNYMAN: No, I don't think I was there at the time when he went down into the quarry, I think at that time I was perhaps at a lookout post.

MS PATEL: Okay. You stated that you went down only after he was shot?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Not prior to that?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay, no fine. Thanks Honourable Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR CORNELIUS: I have no re-examination, thanks Mr Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Just one or two questions. Mr Snyman, in 1989 was it still that much a risk for an askari to walk away from Vlakplaas because if I remember well the political situation had changed dramatically?

MR SNYMAN: No, at that time it was still a serious risk for the police that action may have been taken or information may be given out.

MR SIBANYONI: To your knowledge were there any askaris who walked away, who disappeared from Vlakplaas?

MR SNYMAN: I think while I was there after that time there was an incident whether it was more than one incident, I'm not sure.

MR SIBANYONI: And those who disappeared were never traced, in other words Vlakplaas didn't try to trace and locate them?

MR SNYMAN: I think at one stage some of the other askaris found a person that had left where he actually just went absent without leave or whether he - I don't know but there was an incident and if I think about it, somebody brought him back. As I say I don't know whether he really ran away or he was just absent without leave but I know where when there was an incident at some time that a person didn't arrive for duty.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, no further questions Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Yes, just one question. Mr Snyman, in the duration of your services at Vlakplaas as one of the members who were there, did you ever receive money for anything besides your salary?

MR SNYMAN: No, I did not receive money for work specifically like this.

ADV SANDI: Did you ever receive money for anything?

MR SNYMAN: Well as I mentioned at a time before and in a hearing that I did receive money from Mr de Kock.

ADV SANDI: Can you repeat that? I didn't hear you?

MR SNYMAN: I say at a time I did receive money from Mr de Kock. I think I mentioned it in a hearing or at another TRC hearing, I'm not sure.

ADV SANDI: Were you told what that money was for?

MR SNYMAN: I had financial problems and he gave me the money, it was what it was for, it was not for doing my work.

CHAIRPERSON: How much?

MR SNYMAN: I think it was R5000 Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Oh yes, thank you, you did mention that I think it was in East London?

MR SNYMAN: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You've been asked lots of questions about Mr de Kock. You were at Vlakplaas with him for quite some time, weren't you?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: During that time did distinguished people, Ministers and Generals visit Vlakplaas?

MR SNYMAN: Yes they did, I wouldn't it say it was an unfamiliar occurrence if people from head office came to Vlakplaas for a braai.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they all appear to be on very friendly terms with Mr de Kock?

MR SNYMAN: They did.

CHAIRPERSON: And did he receive regular promotion?

MR SNYMAN: Well he was a major and he became a colonel in the time that I was there.

CHAIRPERSON: And did the other members get promotion?

MR SNYMAN: Yes some people did get promotion there but it was their normal police promotion and I think that people that were at Vlakplaas also they passed the necessary exams.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it apparent that it was held in high esteem as a good working station?

MR SNYMAN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And is this one of the reasons why you were prepared to accept orders given by Mr de Kock?

MR SNYMAN: I was prepared to take orders from him, I wouldn't have questioned it because I had taken for granted that it is in the line of my duty and that it would be expected not only from Mr de Kock but also from the other officers from head office and so forth.

CHAIRPERSON: That these orders would have where necessary come down the proper channels?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SNYMAN: Thank you.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chair, I call Leon Flores.

LEON FLORES: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you Mr Chair.

Mr Flores you have prepared your application in terms of the Act for your participation in the death of Johannes Mabotha, is that correct?

MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Your application has been filled in on the prescribed form and has been handed in within the period of twelve months after the proclamation?

MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: At times of this incident you were a sergeant in the service of the South African Police at Vlakplaas under the command of Eugene de Kock?

MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: At that stage how long had you been with the unit, can you recall?

MR FLORES: Two and a half years.

MR CORNELIUS: Upon this particular day, who gave you the order to participate in the operation?

MR FLORES: Colonel de Kock.

MR CORNELIUS: What was the order?

MR FLORES: The order was that Warrant Officer Britz and Sergeant van Niekerk and I were to go to some or other police station on the Rand.

MR CORNELIUS: Did it appear to be the police station at De Deur at a later stage?

MR FLORES: Yes that is how I understood it.

MR CORNELIUS: And what was the objective?

MR FLORES: The objective and the instruction was to pick up a person who was unknown to me at that time and to transport him to a certain place.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you understand that this was an askari that you had to pick up?

MR FLORES: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: Was the name Johannes Mabotha mentioned?

MR FLORES: I cannot recall whether it was mentioned at that time or stage but it later became known to me that it was Johannes Mabotha.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you tell the Committee what happened next that you departed and then?

MR FLORES: Briefly, we went to the police station where we picked up this person, this Mr Mabotha.

MR CORNELIUS: Might I just assist you here? Before that, was there any meeting concerning three vehicles?

MR FLORES: Yes I can vaguely recall something like that.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you participate in the discussion which took place there before you went to the police station?

MR FLORES: No.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you disembark from the vehicle or did you remain inside the vehicle?

MR FLORES: No, I remained inside the vehicle.

MR CORNELIUS: Very well. Can you recall who were all present on the scene or not?

MR FLORES: Would that be at the vehicle?

MR CORNELIUS: Yes, before you went to the police station.

MR FLORES: I cannot recall precisely who was present, I know that Mr Britz who drove our vehicle who drove our vehicle climbed out of the vehicle and joined the group.

MR CORNELIUS: But you did not climb out?

MR FLORES: No I didn't.

MR CORNELIUS: Evidence was also given that at a stage you, Mr Britz and Mr van Niekerk, you sat in the passenger seat in front and Van Niekerk sat at the back and Britz drove?

MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: That the three of you moved past the De Deur police station and stopped 200 metres away from the police station where you took observation?

MR FLORES: Yes, vaguely that might be correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What did you observe?

CHAIRPERSON: Should he give his evidence as to what he recollects rather than you putting to him which you say happened?

MR CORNELIUS: I'll rephrase it, thank you Mr Chair.

Can you recall that the police station was put under observation?

MR FLORES: No.

MR CORNELIUS: What can you recall regarding what took place?

MR FLORES: I can recall that Mr Britz arrived with Mr Mabotha and put him in our vehicle and from there we departed.

MR CORNELIUS: Can you recall which vehicle you drove?

MR FLORES: We travelled in a Toyota Landcruiser Station Wagon.

MR CORNELIUS: And while you were driving what took place?

MR FLORES: I can't recall the exact time of us being on the road but at a certain stage when another vehicle passed us Van Niekerk and I placed Mabotha under pressure and we cuffed him.

MR CORNELIUS: You refer to another vehicle, which vehicle was this?

MR FLORES: This was the vehicle in which Colonel de Kock and Mr Mentz were travelling.

MR CORNELIUS: I see and you then overwhelmed Johannes Mabotha and you handcuffed him?

MR FLORES: Yes.

MR CORNELIUS: And then?

MR FLORES: According to my knowledge after this took place I assume Mr Britz signalled to the vehicle ahead and both vehicles came to a stop.

MR CORNELIUS: What happened then?

MR FLORES: If I recall correctly, Mr de Kock approached us and mentioned something to Mr Mabotha briefly then walked back to the vehicle and we departed once more.

MR CORNELIUS: In your application you say that he said: "Do you think you're clever?" to Mabotha.

MR FLORES: It is possibly so but it was something sarcastic, if I recall correctly.

MR CORNELIUS: I see that you are struggling to remember many of these details, is this due to the lapse of time?

MR FLORES: Yes Chairperson, ten years is a long time.

MR CORNELIUS: You then drove with Mabotha who was handcuffed. Where to?

MR FLORES: We were on our way to Penge Mine as I understood later in the vehicle.

MR CORNELIUS: What happened there?

MR FLORES: Upon our arrival there we saw Mr Snyman and Mr Vermeulen there. We then climbed out of the vehicle and joined them.

MR CORNELIUS: In your application you state that there was a dinner or a meal. Was there any such meal at that point or did this take place later in the evening?

MR FLORES: I know that we had a braai, whether this was before or after the incident I can't recall but I know that we had a meal there. It is possible that it is after the time.

MR CORNELIUS: Were you present when Mabotha was interrogated?

MR FLORES: No, not at all.

MR CORNELIUS: What happened then?

MR FLORES: After Mr de Kock had spoken to Mr Mabotha, we went back to the vehicles and drove some distance away from where we had been.

MR CORNELIUS: You then drove to the quarry?

MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What happened next?

MR FLORES: We then climbed out and moved down to the bottom of the quarry hole. As I recall, if this is correct, Mr de Kock asked me to return so that I could fetch his pistol in the vehicle which he had left behind. I did so.

MR CORNELIUS: Mr de Kock has denied this in his evidence, do you have anything to say about that?

MR FLORES: It may be that I could be confusing this with another incident but I'm under the impression that I went to fetch a weapon but I could be incorrect.

MR CORNELIUS: What happened in the quarry?

MR FLORES: At that stage I didn't know what the others were doing but I stood with Mr de Kock and Mr Mabotha at that stage. While Mr de Kock was speaking to Mr Mabotha, he lifted his hand and fired two shots at Mr Mabotha which hit him in his upper chest.

MR CORNELIUS: He then died?

MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And what happened next?

MR FLORES: I removed the cuffs from him and went back to the vehicles.

MR CORNELIUS: So you then left the quarry?

MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: And you don't know what else happened at the bottom of the quarry with regard to explosives and so forth?

MR FLORES: After the time I heard what they had done but I was not present when the incident developed further and they acted further.

MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause then that shots were fired to provide cover and that the explosives were used to destroy the body?

MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you remain there until the following morning or did you leave later on.

MR FLORES: A short while thereafter whether we braaied after the time we left with Mr Mentz and Mr de Kock.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you consume any liquor before the operation?

MR FLORES: No, not at all.

MR CORNELIUS: And after the operation?

MR FLORES: Yes it is possible that we may have had a beer but I can't remember it precisely as that.

MR CORNELIUS: Were you aware that the allegation was that Johannes Mabotha had been askari who had turned back to the ANC?

MR FLORES: Yes this was brought to my attention.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you regard this as a dangerous situation when an askari turned back?

MR FLORES: Yes definitely.

MR CORNELIUS: Would this have jeopardised the position of the security forces and those members at Vlakplaas?

MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you put any questions about the previous interrogation or torture of Mabotha?

MR FLORES: No not at all.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you believe that your action would help to prevent the total onslaught against the republic by the SACP/ANC Alliance and the PAC?

MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You acted bona fide in the execution of your orders from Mr de Kock with regard to this particular objective?

MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you receive any bonuses or personal advantage or benefit from this action?

MR FLORES: No not at all.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you have any feelings of malice or vengeance towards Mr Mabotha?

MR FLORES: No not at all.

MR CORNELIUS: You were the so-called foot soldier, the sergeant who carried out the instructions of officers of higher rank?

MR FLORES: Yes that is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What would have happened if you did not execute your orders?

MR FLORES: Personally I believe that I would have been alienated by my other officers and that I would have posed a problem or a danger to the unit if I did not carry out my duties due to the fact that I possessed a great deal of knowledge about the unit.

MR CORNELIUS: You are requesting amnesty in the submission that I have given to the Committee with regard to the offences that you have committed?

MR FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: It might be an appropriate time for the tea adjournment I see, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, Hattingh on record.

Mr Flores, regarding the incident I do not want to pose too many questions to you but except for asking you, you said you left along with Mr de Kock and Mr Mentz from Penge Mine back to Pretoria is that correct?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Who drove the vehicle?

MR FLORES: If I recall correctly it was Mr Mentz.

MR HATTINGH: And can you recall whether he had any trouble driving the vehicle because of the fact that he might have been under the influence of alcohol?

MR FLORES: No, not at all.

MR HATTINGH: Very well, a few other aspects Mr Flores, Mr de Kock said at some stage that he helped you after you were involved with an international incident and national intelligence and your post that you had with national intelligence you lost, do you know this?

MR FLORES: Yes but it was with DCC, I remember that.

MR HATTINGH: Did you work with them after you were attached to Vlakplaas?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And then you were involved in some incident abroad and this is why you lost your post?

MR FLORES: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And you had no income afterwards?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did Mr de Kock then assist you financially?

MR FLORES: He did Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know where he got the money from?

MR FLORES: It came from State funds and that is the only thing I know.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know who authorised it or whether it was authorised at all?

MR FLORES: I don't know at all, I don't know who authorised it Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: A final aspect, you were involved in the gruesome killing of a fellow human being and the destruction of his body. How did you feel about this afterwards?

MR FLORES: No pleasant Chairperson, definitely not pleasant, this is not something that one could feel good about.

MR HATTINGH: Were you also involved with other incidents that were unpleasant?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: On your way back from Penge Mine could you pass judgement by what you observed or what Mr de Kock said to you as to how he felt about the situation?

MR FLORES: Mr de Kock was withdrawn and quiet after this incident, I would say that he would not have felt good after this, nobody would have felt good after such an incident, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: You did not brag about it or was cold towards it?

MR FLORES: Definitely not Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: I have no further questions.

MR LAMEY: Lamey on behalf of Klopper, no questions Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS: Roelof du Plessis on behalf of Wouter Mentz, Mr Chairman, a few questions.

Mr Flores, Mabotha was cuffed with handcuffs or his hands were handcuffed when you arrived at Penge Mine?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson, it was already so.

MR DU PLESSIS: And Mr Mentz' evidence was that he was tied to a pole?

MR FLORES: That is not right Chairperson.

MR DU PLESSIS: Are you saying that is wrong?

MR FLORES: Yes.

MR DU PLESSIS: And why do you say so?

MR FLORES: Because I fetched Mr Mabotha from the vehicle and I left him at one of the walls of the ruins there.

MR DU PLESSIS: You were with him all the time?

MR FLORES: Not all the time, I left from there and I went to sit at the fire with the other people.

MR DU PLESSIS: Was he at this one place before he was taken to the mine where he was shot?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR DU PLESSIS: Tell me Mr Flores, did you consume liquor after the operation?

MR FLORES: That's possible that I may have enjoyed a beer, I don't remember.

MR DU PLESSIS: You can't remember?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR DU PLESSIS: And in other words it's possible that Mr Mentz might have had something to drink afterwards?

MR FLORES: The possibility does exist Chairperson.

MR DU PLESSIS: Were you in the company of Mr Mentz all the time?

MR FLORES: Not all the time.

MR DU PLESSIS: Before the operation or before the shooting of Mr Mabotha?

MR FLORES: Please repeat?

MR DU PLESSIS: Were you in the presence all the time before Mr Mabotha was shot?

MR FLORES: Not at all Chairperson.

MR DU PLESSIS: So if Mr Mentz said that he consumed liquor you cannot dispute it?

MR FLORES: No I cannot Chairperson.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Hattingh had asked you as to who drove the vehicle on the way back to Pretoria from Penge Mine and you said it was Mr Mentz?

MR FLORES: I speak under correction.

MR DU PLESSIS: Are you not sure?

MR FLORES: No I'm unsure whether he drove the vehicle.

MR DU PLESSIS: So you cannot specifically recall that?

MR FLORES: No I can't Chairperson.

MR DU PLESSIS: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it you, could it have been you?

MR DU PLESSIS: That drove? Not at all.

MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, Johan Wagener, I've got no questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman, Rossouw.

Mr Flores, in your evidence in chief it seems as if your memory with regard to the time that you left from Vlakplaas and went back after you were at Penge Mine is your memory very sure or is there some vagueness with regard to any stage during this operation?

MR FLORES: There are some things Chairperson that I recall vaguely.

MR ROSSOUW: But one expects that after such a long lapse of time?

MR FLORES: Yes.

MR ROSSOUW: When you departed from Vlakplaas to the police station on the East Rand at De Deur did you know at that stage that you would pick up Mabotha there?

MR FLORES: It was mentioned to me in the vehicle Chairperson that we will pick up a former askari and I would lie if I say if the name was mentioned Mabotha.

MR ROSSOUW: And tell me, did you know at that stage when you departed from Vlakplaas that you would take him to Penge Mine?

MR FLORES: When I left the farm, no, not at that stage.

MR ROSSOUW: When did you hear that he had to be taken to Penge Mine?

MR FLORES: En route from the farm to the unknown station at that stage on the East Rand.

MR ROSSOUW: Can you recall how you heard this and who told you?

MR FLORES: Warrant Officer Britz told me.

MR ROSSOUW: Do you recall that you might have stopped somewhere before you arrived at the police station?

MR FLORES: I cannot remember anything like that Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: And then you said that what you can remember is that you stopped outside the police station and that Mr Britz brought the askari to the vehicle?

MR FLORES: That is what I said.

MR ROSSOUW: Did you remain in the vehicle?

MR FLORES: Yes Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Did you see whether Mr van Niekerk climbed out of the vehicle?

MR FLORES: If my memory serves me correctly Mr van Niekerk remained in the vehicle with me.

MR ROSSOUW: So according to you there was no discussion between him and another member of the security branch outside the vehicle?

MR FLORES: I cannot confirm that.

MR ROSSOUW: Are you saying it is not so or are you not sure?

MR FLORES: I'm not sure Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Let me ask you in this way, in your statement on page 196 at the top you say that Mr Vermeulen and Mr Snyman went ahead to Penge Mine. Did you state it there in the light of retrospect after you completed the application or was it your knowledge when you departed from Vlakplaas?

MR FLORES: As I heard this was on the way to De Deur.

MR ROSSOUW: So you did not know that part of the operation?

MR FLORES: Not at all Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: And you also accepted that this askari, if he went back to the ANC and he had returned that he would be a security risk?

MR FLORES: Definitely.

MR ROSSOUW: Had you ever heard from anyone that he was involved with shooting incidents where police officers were killed?

MR FLORES: At that point in time, no Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARIBANA: J A C Maribana on record.

Mr Flores, I just want to find out from you, when you and Mr van Niekerk collected Mr Mabotha, how did he climb into the vehicle in which you were driving? Was he dragged or did he climb in the motor vehicle voluntarily?

MR FLORES: Voluntarily, Mr Chairperson.

MR MARIBANA: And as in testifying you indicated that Mr Britz came with Mr Mabotha, is that correct?

MR FLORES: That is correct.

MR MARIBANA: Mr Britz told this Honourable Committee yesterday that actually what happened is that Mr Potgieter ordered or told Mr Mabotha to go with you people. What is your comment on that?

MR FLORES: I wasn't present with that briefing there Mr Chairperson, so I cannot comment on that.

MR MARIBANA: Isn't it that at that - or let me ask you like this, when Mr Potgieter came with Mr Mabotha towards the motor vehicle, were you not with Mr Britz at that stage?

MR FLORES: Is that outside the vehicle Mr Chairperson?

MR MARIBANA: I'm just saying at the time, I'm not sure whether you were outside?

MR FLORES: I was sitting in the vehicle, Mr Chairperson.

MR MARIBANA: And if I understand you correctly, Mr Britz was outside the motor vehicle at that stage?

MR FLORES: That is correct.

MR MARIBANA: And in your statement on page 196 does this, on the second paragraph:

Did Mr Mabotha maybe enquire from you people as to where you are you taking him?

MR FLORES: He might have but I cannot recall, Mr Chairperson.

MR MARIBANA: And who talked those words that "we're going to drop you off"?

MR FLORES: I have no idea Mr Chairperson. I cannot recall.

MR MARIBANA: And did you know at that stage that Mr Mabotha would be killed?

MR FLORES: Not at all.

MR MARIBANA: And now Mr Flores, when you were driving, Mr van Niekerk ...(indistinct) and push Mr Mabotha down, did you know what actually made him to do that? Was there any instruction going to do that or he just started it?

MR FLORES: When making the statement, Mr Chairperson, I was under the impression that Mr Britz had arranged with us that when as I previously stated when Mr de Kock's vehicle passed us that would be a signal that we should handcuff Mr Mabotha.

MR MARIBANA: But you were not, if I understand you correctly, you were just speculating here, is that so?

MR FLORES: That is correct.

MR MARIBANA: And then before Mr Mabotha ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: But that is what happened, isn't it?

MR FLORES: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: That when the car passed you, you did handcuff him?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Sir, Mr Chairperson.

MR MARIBANA: Did he give any resistance when he was handcuffed?

MR FLORES: At that stage I presume he did because he must have been astonished what is happening now, Mr Chairperson.

MR MARIBANA: And at that time or when actually did you know that you're heading to the mine with Mr Mabotha ...(indistinct)

MR FLORES: I beg your pardon, Sir?

MR MARIBANA: At what stage did you know that you were heading to Penge Mine? After Mr de Kock has passed or I just want to find out that, at what stage actually?

MR FLORES: At the stage of - I remembered why - I beg your pardon - going to Penge was when we bypassed Middleburg, I knew we were not on our way to Middleburg, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But hadn't you been told that you were going to Penge?

MR FLORES: Not at all.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you said that Britz told you that on the way?

MR FLORES: At one stage Mr Chairperson, I can't recall but he did mention what was going on to me in the vehicle that was from Vlakplaas to De Deur area.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR FLORES: It could have been that he did mention it in that time or that point in time.

MR MARIBANA: And as from your own testimony that Britz ...(indistinct) to De Kock and both vehicles stopped, what were they doing there at that particular stage, what were they doing? Did maybe they exchanged words or what?

MR FLORES: If I recollect correctly, Mr Chairperson, when Mr de Kock's vehicle stopped he just exited the vehicle, walked over to our vehicle and made a remark and then climbed back in his vehicle where we followed and both vehicles left.

MR MARIBANA: Could you hear the remarks from Mr de Kock at that stage?

MR FLORES: I did state in my statement that if I may refer to it something like "you think you're clever?" I could be mistaken.

MR MARIBANA: And then now at Penge Mine, you indicated that Mr de Kock started talking to the ANC member, well ...(indistinct). Could you hear their conversation at that stage?

MR FLORES: I couldn't, Mr Chairperson, couldn't hear any questions put or any answers but you could hear they were talking.

MR MARIBANA: Will you be maybe in a position to tell this Honourable Committee for how long did the conversation between Mr de Kock and Mabotha took place?

MR FLORES: If I were to say a time I would be totally fabricating then.

MR MARIBANA: Now Mr Flores, on question of going back and fetch first a gun, you were saying asked I can't remember by whom, you indicated that you might be confusing this incident with other one, were you ever involved in that type of an incident before?

MR FLORES: In such a similar incident?

MR MARIBANA: Uh huh.

MR FLORES: Not that I can recall, no.

MR MARIBANA: So one would be correct to say what you are saying here is what transpired on that particular day?

MR FLORES: To the best of my knowledge Mr Chairperson, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: As I recollect it, what you said you can't remember whether it was this or some other incident or being told by De Kock to go and fetch his gun?

MR FLORES: I beg your pardon Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: When you told us that De Kock said you should go and fetch his gun for him, I think that was when you said you may be mistaken this may have been involved in another incident?

MR FLORES: That is correct, I did mention that.

MR MARIBANA: While you were at the quarry did you hear what Mr de Kock was saying to Mr Mabotha at that stage?

MR FLORES: No Mr Chairperson.

MR MARIBANA: Thank you Mr Chair, I've got no further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you Honourable Chairperson, Ramula Patel.

You stated in your application that Mabotha was picked up outside the police station yet today you say he was picked up you at a particular point where the three vehicles met?

MR CORNELIUS: I'm sorry Mr Chair, that wasn't testified. He in fact said that he picked him up outside the police station but not at the point where the three vehicles met.

MS PATEL: Sorry Honourable Chairperson.

Did you pick him up immediately outside of the police station?

MR FLORES: Chairperson, what do you mean by immediately, I don't?

MS PATEL: Sorry, exactly outside the police station, was he collected in front of the police station?

MR FLORES: If I recall correctly, yes. My impression was in front of the police station. Could be a distance away, I'm not sure. I'm not familiar with that area.

MS PATEL: Do you mean that he could have been collected some distance away from the police station at a point where you would have waited or what are you not clear on?

MR FLORES: I could have been possible, in the area of the police station but not directly as by the front door of the police station. I cannot say where exactly.

MS PATEL: Okay when Britz brought him, Mr Mabotha, to you, where did he bring him from? From another vehicle or from out of the police station directly to you?

MR FLORES: I have no idea, Ma'am.

MS PATEL: Was Britz the only one who was with Mr Mabotha at that time?

MR FLORES: There were other gentlemen with him Mr Chairperson, who they were I can't recall.

MS PATEL: How many others?

MR FLORES: I have no idea.

MS PATEL: Okay. When Mr Mabotha got into the vehicle, what was said to him?

MR FLORES: At that stage when he entered the vehicle nothing was said, we just greeted one another.

MS PATEL: Did you know him from beforehand?

MR FLORES: Not at all.

MS PATEL: Do you know whether he knew anybody else who was in your vehicle at that time? Was there a discussion between people?

MR FLORES: I doubt it, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay. And you say that it was Mr Britz' instruction that he be handcuffed at the point when De Kock passed the vehicle?

MR FLORES: If I'm not mistaken, that is so, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Can you say there was some resistance that was offered at that time?

MR FLORES: I could say so yes.

MS PATEL: Could you tell us more clearly what the nature of that resistance was?

MR FLORES: I think Mr Chairperson any person being offered a lift and being suppressed to be handcuffed, I don't know how one explains resistance.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand your evidence, you don't know if there was any resistance or not, you merely presume there would have been?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: While we're on the subject, how far had you driven when this happened?

MR FLORES: Chairperson, I'm unclear on that.

CHAIRPERSON: Five minutes, an hour?

MR FLORES: If I recall correctly, I think I've stated in an hour, could have been less.

MS PATEL: Okay. You did however state in your evidence in chief that Mr Mabotha at the stage when he was handcuffed was put under pressure. Do you recall that?

MR FLORES: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay, what was the nature of this pressure?

MR FLORES: The nature of this pressure referring to now, Mr Chairperson, is when Mr van Niekerk overcame him, that is basically just the normal ...(intervention).

MS PATEL: What is normal, Sir?

MR FLORES: I'm trying to think of a good word, ma'am.

MS PATEL: Okay?

MR FLORES: Just used - overpowered him with his strength, to sustain him so we could get handcuffs on, Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay, would I be correct then that at that point at least Mr Mabotha would have started becoming concerned and worried about what was going on and that he at that stage would have realised that this is not a normal situation, he is not just being taken wherever for training or back to Vlakplaas?

MR FLORES: I would believe that that's the way he would have felt, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay fine. You say that when you got to Penge Mine you left him at the side of a wall and you then went to join the rest at the fire?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay, was he left alone at that stage?

MR FLORES: At that stage when I put him against the wall, Mr Chairperson, then Mr de Kock joined him and I returned to the rest of the people.

MS PATEL: Okay, so Mr de Kock was there almost as soon as you arrived there?

MR FLORES: No he arrived there, if I can recall correctly, I can't give a time but shortly after us.

MS PATEL: Okay, fine. Sorry, just to backtrack slightly, you said that you pulled over the vehicle at some stage and at which the comment was made to Mr Mabotha by Mr de Kock, can you tell us what Mr Mabotha's reaction was to that comment?

MR FLORES: I cannot recall at that stage what his reaction was, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay fine and you say you weren't present at the cross-examination at Penge Mine?

MR FLORES: Not at all.

MS PATEL: Well I can't recall whether you've stated this but did you have to drop by from Penge Mine to the quarry where he was eventually shot?

MR FLORES: Yes I did state that Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay and did Mr Mabotha drive in your vehicle?

MR FLORES: From what I can recall yes he did.

MS PATEL: Okay. Who was driving the vehicle?

MR FLORES: If I'm not mistaken it was Warrant Officer Britz as it was his vehicle.

MS PATEL: Okay and where were you sitting in the vehicle?

MR FLORES: It could have been left, front or back but I was in the same vehicle.

MS PATEL: Okay. Can you tell us what Mr Mabotha's state of mind was at that time? Was he agitated, was he calm, what was the position?

MR FLORES: I cannot answer that Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Why not? You were in the vehicle, you were present?

MR FLORES: He never spoke to us Mr Chairperson, I'm not a doctor or something to see what state he was in, with all respect.

MS PATEL: From your perception of what his condition was at the time, I'm not asking you for an expert opinion, I'm asking you for what your perception was. Did he appear to be calm to you or not?

MR FLORES: Well I presume he was a bit confused and scared, must be.

MS PATEL: Okay. He would then have not gotten into the vehicle voluntarily?

MR FLORES: He did get into the vehicle voluntarily Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay. You don't know what was said to him at that stage about where he was being taken?

MR FLORES: Not at all.

MS PATEL: Okay. And at the quarry itself, you stated that Mr de Kock was still talking to Mr Mabotha when he shot him, is that correct?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Do you know what was being said?

MR FLORES: I can't recall what the conversation was or the questions to one another was.

MS PATEL: Was there any resistance offered by Mr Mabotha at the quarry?

MR FLORES: Yes Mr Chairperson, at that stage I think I did mention in my statement that obviously Mr Mabotha knew what was going to happen and I can't recall the exact words but he was pleading for his life basically, yes.

MS PATEL: Was he? Okay, was that the full extent of his resistance, that he was pleading for his life then?

MR FLORES: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Okay and what was Mr de Kock's response to that, can you recall?

MR FLORES: I cannot recall that, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Do you have any idea how long you were and Mr de Kock and Mr Mabotha were in the quarry before Mr Mabotha was shot?

MR FLORES: I can't think longer than five minutes, I'm speaking under correction but not longer than five minutes.

MS PATEL: Okay. You've stated in your application that there was a braai being held and that you stated in your evidence to us here today that you might have had a beer afterwards. If my memory serves me correctly, Mr de Kock said that there was no braaing done and there was no alcohol that was had by anybody. What is your comment on that?

MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, I didn't hear Mr de Kock's evidence.

MS PATEL: Okay, but you're sure about the fact that there was a braai and people came.

MR FLORES: I'm sure people had something to eat afterwards if I recollect correctly.

MS PATEL: And you left with Mr de Kock?

MR FLORES: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Afterwards?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay. Can you give us an indication, what was Mr - at the time in the quarry and when you were at the vehicle where you stopped and Mr de Kock had come over to pass the comment, can you give us an indication as to what the nature of Mr de Kock's attitude was towards Mr Mabotha?

MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, excuse me, was that before going into the quarry?

MS PATEL: No at the point where Mr de Kock came over and made the comment. Can you tell us, you know, in what sense what the tone of the comment was at the vehicle?

MR FLORES: Sarcastic.

MS PATEL: Sarcastic, okay. And what was Mr de Kock's attitude at the quarry when they were speaking, was he angry, was he calm, what was the position. Can you tell, can you recall?

MR FLORES: If I can recall, Mr Chairperson, he was acting very normal, no anger whatsoever.

MS PATEL: Would that be how you know Mr de Kock?

MR FLORES: At stages yes.

MS PATEL: At stages? And at other stages?

MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, we all have tempers, now it all depends in what scenario we are.

MS PATEL: Okay. But he wasn't angry at this stage?

MR FLORES: Not that I can recall Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Okay. You stated that you were at Vlakplaas for two and a half years prior to this incident occurring, is that correct? Did I understand you correctly?

MR FLORES: No Mr Chairperson. My whole period was two and a half years.

MS PATEL: Okay, alright, no then I misunderstood you. How long had you been at Vlakplaas before this incident occurred?

MR FLORES: I'm speaking under correction, I think a year and a half, two years. I'm not sure.

MS PATEL: Okay and you didn't know Mr Mabotha at all?

MR FLORES: No, not at all.

MS PATEL: You didn't recognise him just from appearance either when you saw him?

MR FLORES: Not at all.

MS PATEL: Okay did you have any dealings with the askaris at Vlakplaas during your period there?

MR FLORES: Yes I did Mr Chairperson.

MS PATEL: Can you perhaps just from your experience tell us in what light they would have seen the need to know principle, do you know whether there were common breaches amongst them on this principle, whether they would have generally discussed things that they shouldn't have been discussing or whether the askari themselves had strictly adhered to the need to know principle?

MR FLORES: I think everyone at the farm Mr Chairperson was need to know basis.

MS PATEL: askaris included?

MR FLORES: Included.

MS PATEL: Okay, thank you Sir, I have no further questions.

MR FLORES: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR CORNELIUS: I have no re-examination, thank you Mr Chair.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Flores, if there was no incident which was

similar to the one at page 9, how then do you confuse the fetching of the pistols? You are saying you confused it with another incident. How is that possible if there was no other similar incident?

MR FLORES: Mr Chairperson, they've carried it over correctly, if I refer to other incidents where people were so killed and I'd just like to bring to your attention, is that during the giving of my statement, on one particular day I had to do 23 different incidents so I think it's just normal I could have been mistaken or confused with certain incidents.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you saying there may be another incident where you were requested by Mr de Kock to go and fetch a pistol?

MR FLORES: There is a possibility yes, Mr Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: To fetch a pistol, to do what with a pistol?

MR FLORES: Well it depends in what incident such request was offered to me or given to me by Mr de Kock, I cannot recall at this stage. I was under the impression it was at this incident, that's why I mentioned it, Mr Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: When you were asked questions by Mr du Plessis, you said you fetched Mr Mabotha and left him next to a wall or next to ruins. Did he offer any resistance?

MR FLORES: Not at all Mr Chairperson, not that I can recall.

MR SIBANYONI: You say obviously Mabotha knew what was going to happen and he was pleading for his life. Was he pleading to Mr de Kock?

MR FLORES: I would say direct in general he was pleading not to Mr de Kock as such.

MR SIBANYONI: By pleading he was asking that he should not be killed, his life may be spared?

MR FLORES: I wouldn't those were the exact words that he was using but he was pleading Mr Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: But Mr de Kock said Mabotha was calm and in fact when he asked him questions Mabotha was just laughing. What is your comment about that?

MR FLORES: I cannot comment on that, Mr Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I think Mr de Kock said that when Mabotha saw the explosives he became alarmed and turned around towards him and that then De Kock shot him. Is it possible that he turned around and pleaded with De Kock?

MR FLORES: That could be a possibility, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: A question from me, not from the witness. Ms Patel, have we been able to find out about the age of the deceased? How old was the deceased when this thing happened?

MS PATEL: Well I think the question should be directed at the legal representative, Honourable Chairperson.

MR MARIBANA: Mr Chair, I've got instructions that he was born in 1958.

ADV SANDI: Thank you. No questions Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now you've told us that you had a braai there, but you're not sure whether it was before or after the incident?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean by a braai?

MR FLORES: Defining a braai Mr Chairperson is just a piece of meat and then having something to eat, maybe a beer and then ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: It's fresh meat that you take and you grill over a fire?

MR FLORES: We never took any meat with us as such in our vehicles but there was food there, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Where was there food?

MR FLORES: By the braai. I assume that the people who were there before us, Mr Vermeulen and Snyman did take meat with.

CHAIRPERSON: Somebody had brought fresh meat to the place where you were going to blow this man up and you had a braai, either before or after you did it?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you said you may have had a beer?

MR FLORES: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So it would appear that you were not all that shocked about what had happened?

MR FLORES: I was shocked Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But you could braai some meat and drink a beer afterwards?

MR FLORES: Usually shock Mr Chairperson, with myself, always occurs an hour or two after the time.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR CORNELIUS: That is all the applicants I have to present Mr Chair, I think the next would be Mr Lamey, Mr Klopper I think.

C KLOPPER: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: May I proceed Mr Chairman? Thank you.

Mr Klopper you are an applicant in an amnesty application which emanates from your involvement in an investigation that took place, an interrogation of Mr Mabotha?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR LAMEY: During the proceeding week or weeks we have seen that your were also an applicant in the Komatipoort Incident and we have heard your general evidence with regard to the run up to your amnesty application?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR LAMEY: Just to return to the bundle which has been placed before you, initially you submitted an amnesty application, you completed the prescribed form yourself, that is from page 30 to 38 and in that initial amnesty application you provided summaries regarding various incidents in which you as a member of the security police and specifically Vlakplaas were involved and these incidents to which you have referred are also extracts from evidence which you gave before the Goldstone Commission and which were withdrawn from statements which you made to the investigating team of the Attorney General?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: As such you did not have any thorough statements with you when you initially completed your amnesty application and also not when you compiled the supplementary application?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR LAMEY: Is it also correct that in your initial amnesty application you mentioned offences which were committed among others during your period of service with Vlakplaas and which boiled down to fraud, false presentation with regard to state funds and theft for you would not qualify for amnesty within the scope of the act and this was not repeated later with regard to your supplementary amnesty application?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Your supplementary amnesty application and the relevant extract with regard to this incident can be found on page 43 up to and including 56 of the paginated bundle?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Those charges of fraud and theft which have been subjects in the De Kock matter have also been testified by you?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR LAMEY: Just to return to your initial form you mention in paragraph 10 (d) informer fees?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And then we see on page 39 there is a paragraph 4 which mentions so called informer claims which was served and that the money was divided afterwards by you and De Kock?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR LAMEY: The reference to informer fees in the initial application, does this have relevance among others for paragraph 4?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR LAMEY: And this is not something that you are actually requesting amnesty for?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Thus is it correct then in your introductory paragraph to your supplementary amnesty application paragraph 48 that this does not form part of your amnesty application because you are not qualifying for amnesty for that?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR LAMEY: Then on page 48 up to and including 51 there is a general background of when you joined the police in 1985 and after that you were transferred in '87 to the security branch in Soweto where you were a member of a counter-terrorism unit under the leadership of Grobbelaar?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR LAMEY: And in 1989 you were transferred to Vlakplaas where you were under the command of Eugene de Kock who was at that stage a major?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR LAMEY: That it is common cause that this incident with regard to Mabotha for which you have requested amnesty took place early in 1989?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR LAMEY: What was your rank at that stage?

MR KLOPPER: I think I was a sergeant or a warrant officer.

MR LAMEY: One of the two?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR LAMEY: How old were you at that stage, early 1989?

MR KLOPPER: I was either 19 or 20.

MR LAMEY: You were born in 1966 so that would put you at the age of 22 or 23?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Just to deal with that swiftly, you were not at Vlakplaas when Mabotha was killed?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: You heard about this later?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Can you tell us how you came to hear of Mabotha for the first time?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I was working in Soweto where Jacobse and I received an order from Grobbelaar to join him and Lieutenant du Toit where they were in Marble Hall and they had arrested an MK member.

MR LAMEY: Were you called to Marble Hall?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR LAMEY: When you were called did you understand that there was an MK member who had been arrested?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: With whom did you depart from Marble Hall?

MR KLOPPER: With Lieutenant Jacobs.

MR LAMEY: Was he a member of your unit?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR LAMEY: That would be the terrorist training unit which was a part of the Soweto Security Branch?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And you then went to Marble Hall?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: To the security offices there?

MR KLOPPER: I'm not entirely certain where it was, but it was in Marble Hall.

MR LAMEY: Can you recall whether you arrived there in the morning or in the evening?

MR KLOPPER: The time that I spent there was a day and that very same evening we departed back to Soweto.

MR LAMEY: Are you saying that you did not spend the night there?

MR KLOPPER: No I did not.

MR LAMEY: Who from the Soweto Security Branch was already at Marble Hall when you arrived there, apart from you and Lieutenant Jacobs?

MR KLOPPER: It was Grobbelaar, Lieutenant du Toit and Warrant Officer van Tonder.

MR LAMEY: All members of your unit?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Were there also security branch members from Marble Hall?

MR KLOPPER: Yes, however I cannot recall their names.

MR LAMEY: When you arrived there you saw the detained person?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR LAMEY: Where was he upon your arrival there?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall exactly.

MR LAMEY: Could it have been at the security branch offices?

MR KLOPPER: Yes it is possible.

MR LAMEY: What happened further? Or let me put it this way, according to your knowledge, had he been arrested, this person, let us just speak of Mabotha. It appeared later that it was Johannes Mabotha, had he been arrested?

MR KLOPPER: Yes, I assume that he had been arrested. He was in the detention of the security branch.

MR LAMEY: And did anybody else arrive there?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall at exactly which stage but Mr de Kock and Riaan Bellingan also arrived there.

MR LAMEY: And were you aware that they were from Vlakplaas?

MR KLOPPER: Yes I knew that they were from Vlakplaas.

MR LAMEY: What else did you find out about Mabotha?

MR KLOPPER: At a stage it came to my knowledge that he had been an askari who had defected and that allegedly he had returned to the ANC and he had contact with Winnie Mandela.

MR LAMEY: Where had he been an askari?

MR KLOPPER: At Vlakplaas.

MR LAMEY: Can you recall whether the issue of discussions with tapping devices came to light with regard to Winnie Mandela?

MR KLOPPER: Yes at a stage mention was made of it, I don't know who spoke of it but the content of the discussion was but that the liaison with Winnie Mandela had been traced by means of tapping the conversations between Mabotha and Mandela.

MR LAMEY: When you were at the Soweto Security Branch did you know that the telephone conversations of Mrs Mandela were being monitored?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR LAMEY: However you yourself were not a party to this tapping of her conversations between her and specifically Mabotha?

MR KLOPPER: No.

MR LAMEY: But you did know about this?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR LAMEY: After you had arrived at Marble Hall and you had seen Mabotha there, was he taken to a specific place?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, Mabotha was taken to a farm outside Marble Hall with all the persons who had been present there, all the security officers.

MR LAMEY: You refer to branch members, do you mean from Soweto?

MR KLOPPER: Yes and from Marble Hall and from Vlakplaas.

MR LAMEY: And that would then be De Kock and Bellingan from Vlakplaas?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR LAMEY: What happened further at this farm?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, at a stage the interrogation of Mabotha began, interrogation regarding his activities in the ANC in order to extract information from him.

MR LAMEY: Which specific information did you as members of the Soweto Security Branch want with regard to this person?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall specifically what we were interested in but I can imagine that it would be weapon stockpiling places, safe houses which were used by MK members or possible MK members who were hiding and whether he knew where they were hiding.

MR LAMEY: So to summarise, you were interested in the movements and identities of other MK members that he may have known of?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR LAMEY: As well as the concealment of weapons and the so called safe houses?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR LAMEY: These safe houses that you have referred to, what houses were these?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, it could have been any house, homes of families who were favourably inclined towards the ANC and infiltrated members who would accommodate these members at their homes or would even conceal weapons in their homes.

MR LAMEY: So places where weapons were stored or where MK members would be accommodated?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: During the interrogation Mr Mabotha, what was his level of co-operation? What else happened during this interrogation?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall exactly whether or not he gave his full co-operation, the person was assaulted, but I cannot recall exactly what his level of co-operation was if there was any co-operation in any event.

MR LAMEY: In which manner was he assaulted?

MR KLOPPER: He was suffocated by means of an inner tube, he was assaulted by means of blows and kicks to his body. At a certain stage Bellingan produced gloves and placed ice in Mr Mabotha's anus.

CHAIRPERSON: Bellingan?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: I don't know if I heard you correctly, did you also mention that he had been hung upside down?

MR KLOPPER: At a certain point he was hung upside down and Bellingan produced the ice which was then placed inside his anus.

MR LAMEY: You say that he wore gloves?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Did you also participate in this assault?

MR KLOPPER: Yes I did. With regard to the ice I did not participate in that action.

MR LAMEY: If you will look at paragraph 5, you state that during the interrogation, Mabotha gave certain information about the identification of cohorts and where weapons could be found?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Is it your recollection that such information was provided at a certain point?

MR KLOPPER: Yes. The reason why I would say that is that when we moved back to Soweto or the Soweto environment, we later searched houses that night so I cannot tell you pertinently that such information was actually given but it must have been if we have then gone ahead and searched certain homes.

MR LAMEY: But today after all this time you cannot recall specific detailed information to that effect, your recollection is that after that you returned to Soweto, that he had made certain identifications so you deduced from that that you must have given some level of co-operation and information?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: How or what time approximately did you return to Soweto?

MR KLOPPER: I can't recall precisely but what I do remember is that it was at night and Mr Grobbelaar's vehicle lights were not working at a certain point and he drove behind us or with me and Lieutenant Jacobs so that he could follow our lights.

MR LAMEY: Were there any askaris on the farm at Marble Hall?

MR KLOPPER: As far as I can recall there were no askaris there, we met them at the Soweto security branch offices.

MR LAMEY: And do you know whether Mabotha was assaulted at the Soweto security branch by anyone?

MR KLOPPER: He was detained among the askaris and he was assaulted by some of them but I don't know who these persons were.

MR LAMEY: And was he taken outside to do any kind of identifications?

MR KLOPPER: Yes we took him to go and identify certain houses.

MR LAMEY: Who else from the Soweto security branch were present when this took place?

MR KLOPPER: The persons who were present at Marble Hall went along on this excursion.

MR LAMEY: Was Mr Grobbelaar there?

MR KLOPPER: Yes he was but I cannot remember who of the members from Soweto were also present but the persons who were present at Marble Hall were also present in this instance.

MR LAMEY: And after those identifications, where was he taken?

MR KLOPPER: I never again saw Mabotha.

MR LAMEY: Was he brought back to the offices after you had driven out and taken the identifications, what is your recollection? Was he brought back?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall.

MR LAMEY: You also mention here that you were not a member of the investigating unit of the Soweto security branch?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: However, you do say that according to your knowledge he was delivered to the investigating team of the Soweto security branch?

MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is how it worked. We were the field team and we would then arrest the person and deliver him to the investigating team who in their turn would lodge further investigations and charge the person.

MR LAMEY: And you didn't know what else happened to him during his further detention?

MR KLOPPER: No, I know nothing further.

MR LAMEY: During the interrogation and assault there on the farm at Marble Hall was everybody who was present there consistently involved or what was your recollection?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall which persons were there all the time or which of them departed. As far as I can recall Lieutenant Jacobs and I went to purchase food at a certain point and that is what I can recall that for a certain period of time we were not present there.

MR LAMEY: Can you recall whether Major Grobbelaar was there throughout the time?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall with certainty.

MR LAMEY: Can you say whether Mabotha as a result of the assaults on him had been injured?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I cannot recall specifically but when I recall the assault there must have been injuries which were visible.

MR LAMEY: Was he seriously assaulted?

MR KLOPPER: Yes, according to my judgement he was.

MR LAMEY: So you cannot recall in detail what the nature of his nature of his injuries were but as a result of his detention you would automatically assume that he would have visible injuries?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR LAMEY: At that time, was it a serious matter when somebody who was an askari member and an MK member, if he once again became involved among the ranks of the ANC?

MR KLOPPER: Yes, he could have conveyed a great deal of information pertaining to us to them.

MR LAMEY: And how would such a person be regarded?

MR KLOPPER: As a traitor.

MR LAMEY: Mr Klopper, you are applying for amnesty for your participation in the assault on Mr Mabotha, is that correct?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR LAMEY: But you maintain you were not a member of any plan or conspiracy to murder Mr Mabotha, you have no knowledge of any decision making process with regard to this?

MR KLOPPER: No.

MR LAMEY: The question with regard to the political objective on page 55 over to page 56, as you say that the broad political objective at that stage was to combat the onslaught of the ANC/SACP Alliance?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And according to you he was an ANC member who had previously been an askari at Vlakplaas and who had turned, as they put it?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR LAMEY: And this presented a great risk and danger?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Furthermore you say with regard to your motivation for your involvement that you received an order to go to Marble Hall?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR LAMEY: In retrospect was that order aimed at participating in the interrogation of the subject?

MR KLOPPER: Yes it was to participate in the interrogation, that is correct.

MR LAMEY: In paragraph 10 (b) you say as already mentioned Johannes Mabotha was a former askari who had worked at Vlakplaas, he once again made contact with senior persons in the ANC ranks among others Winnie Mandela according to typing which was undertaken. The fact that he rejoined the ANC ranks and along with the information that had had as a result of his involvement as an askari with the security police, held potential dangers. The objective with the interrogation was to obtain further information with regard to co-workers who had been stockpiling locations and the so called safe houses and the idea was to combat the activities of specific MK members?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: You say that normally the ANC members who had been arrested would not give spontaneous co-operation during interrogation and as a result coercion methods such as assault and torture were used in order to obtain information from these persons?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: You also say that your recollection of his behaviour on that day is not specific but what you maintain is that this must have been the reason for the interrogation?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Due to the fact that he had been an askari and had once again joined the ranks of the ANC, he was regarded as a traitor among the ranks of the security police?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: Then with regard to the order or the approval you say that you were called by Major Grobbelaar who was the commander of your unit and you were a sergeant or a Warrant Officer at that time?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: And during the assault and interrogation of Mabotha, Major Grobbelaar and Major de Kock were in control of the interrogation process?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR LAMEY: You also referred to them as having occupied the highest ranks during this interrogation?

MR KLOPPER: Yes, at the scene of this interrogation.

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I think that's the evidence in chief, thank you.

Just one aspect, you did not receive any additional reward for your involvement in this matter?

MR KLOPPER: No I didn't.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, Hattingh on behalf of De Kock.

Mr Klopper, I see that you have mentioned that I put you under cross-examination for 23 days during the De Kock trial and I can assure you that this will not happen again.

It was only after this Mabotha incident that you joined Vlakplaas?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And if I recall correctly, then your involvement in the Mabotha incident and the presence of Mr de Kock gave rise to the fact that you were sent to Vlakplaas?

MR KLOPPER: Yes, well the first time I met Mr de Kock was during this incident.

MR HATTINGH: You say in these documents that you were impressed with him and that you regarded it as an honour to join Vlakplaas?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And that you regarded this unit as an elite unit?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Was this unit ...(inaudible) from the other members of the security branch who did not serve at Vlakplaas?

MR KLOPPER: Yes, there was a certain element of jealousy.

MR HATTINGH: I would like to know from you, Mr Klopper, with regard to singular aspects, are you applying for amnesty for the Nelspruit incident?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And the Sambo incident?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And the Dirk Coetzee, Bheki Mangene incident?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Very well, I would just like to examine you in general regarding the background pertaining to the activities at Vlakplaas, I don't know whether I will have this opportunity again. Regarding the Sambo matter, just to give brief information to those persons who are not aware of what happened there, this is where the security branch interrogated a person at Skoormans and this was the incident during which the person who was being interrogated died and assistance was requested from Vlakplaas and you were deployed by Mr de Kock to receive the body, that was in Lichtenburg?

MR KLOPPER: Yes, it was somewhere in the Eastern Transvaal.

MR HATTINGH: And from there you took the body to Verdrag, a police training base in the Northern Transvaal?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: This is also where you destroyed the body by means of explosives?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Did you report to any higher officer and when I refer to higher officers I mean someone like Mr de Kock after this incident?

MR KLOPPER: Do you mean the Sambo incident?

MR HATTINGH: Yes.

MR KLOPPER: As far as I can recall, Colonel du Plessis or General Engelbrecht would be the officers to whom was reported.

MR HATTINGH: Which of these two did you indicate during the De Kock trial? I think that you indicated Du Plessis' name and I cannot recall whether you mentioned Engelbrecht's name but definitely that of Du Plessis?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: So he was informed regarding the incident?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Did he appear upset over this, did he admonish you for having been involved in this incident?

MR KLOPPER: No Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: With regard to that incident we heard that afterwards generals and colonels went down to the Skoorman base?

MR KLOPPER: Yes, there was quite an extensive investigation.

MR HATTINGH: Very well, in general Mr Klopper, when you became involved in incidents such as the Mabotha incident, what was your impression regarding the higher hierarchy's attitude towards that and by the hierarchy I'm referring to the generals and the commanders at head office. What was your impression and your perception of what their attitude would have been towards this?

MR KLOPPER: That it had taken place with their approval.

MR HATTINGH: That it enjoyed their approval?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Was this the general perception at Vlakplaas?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And we have repeatedly heard about functions which were held at Vlakplaas during which these generals were present?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Did you ever hear that anybody particularly from head office had admonished or addressed or attempted to discipline a member of Vlakplaas with regard to matters such as the Mabotha incident or any other incident that you are requesting amnesty for?

MR KLOPPER: No Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Just in general, we've also heard evidence about false claims which were instituted in order to cover the costs of these functions which were held at Vlakplaas?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Did you participate in such false claims?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And were you aware of the fact that these false claims would be used to cover the costs of these functions?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: What was your perception of the knowledge of the guests who were present there, who did they think was paying for this?

MR KLOPPER: My perception was that they knew what it was for, that it all took place with their approval.

MR HATTINGH: Can we just get to your involvement with the Soweto security branch with regard to Mr Mabotha? You say you were a member of the field team?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And although you were not involved with the investigation you must have received some information with regard to so called active terror in the area where you worked?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did you receive information about Mrs Winnie Mandela's activities or her so called soccer club's activities or the activities of people who liaised with her?

MR KLOPPER: Yes at several occasions such information was indeed available.

MR HATTINGH: Did you ever receive information that persons at her club, there were persons involved who on their own were involved with attacks on police officers?

MR KLOPPER: I did not personally receive such information but there was hearsay to that effect.

MR HATTINGH: Information received, did you also work with informers and sources at security branch?

MR KLOPPER: Yes I did.

MR HATTINGH: Did you ever receive information from sources but not about Mrs Mandela but about people who were involved with her organisation who were involved with attacks on police?

MR KLOPPER: Not myself, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: After Mr Mabotha was transferred from Marble Hall to Soweto you say he was questioned by members of amongst others the askari members from Vlakplaas?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know why the questioning continued?

MR KLOPPER: I don't know, my personal impression was because it was of revenge because this person was seen as a traitor.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know whether the members of the Soweto security branch was still involved in his questioning in Soweto after he arrived there?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot pertinently remember that Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Were you involved?

MR KLOPPER: No, I was not involved.

MR HATTINGH: We know that the arrest of Mr Mabotha took place on the 22nd February, if I recall correctly?

MR KLOPPER: I don't know that specifically, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Well you can accept it as given but we also know that on the 4th April he was according to the stipulations of Section 29, the Act of Internal Security, he was detained, did you know of that?

MR KLOPPER: No I didn't, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know whether the reason of this lapse of time between his arrest and detention could be ascribed to the fact that they might have given him the opportunity to recuperate from his injuries because of the assaults?

MR KLOPPER: I don't know Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: But you say as far as you can recall he did have visible signs of assaults?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And this was after the assault at Marble Hall?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And there you say he was further assaulted in Soweto?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: The reason for this would have been if it was the persons who were detained in terms of Section 29 were subject to medical examination?

MR KLOPPER: Yes Chairperson

MR HATTINGH: And security members of the police during this time were particularly sensitive, I can just not recall when the Biko matter was around but with similar occasions they were very careful to evade criticism that persons who were detained were assaulted?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: This pointing out that Mr Mabotha did that evening, I'm talking about in that evening, did this take place in the evening?

MR KLOPPER: As far as I know yes, everything took place afterwards in the evening.

MR HATTINGH: Was this directly after you left from Marble Hall to Soweto?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And did he hesitate when he pointed out these places to you?

MR KLOPPER: Not that I can recall Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Were these residences?

MR KLOPPER: Yes Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: But were there places where the weapons were hidden?

MR KLOPPER: Yes as far as I remember he pointed out places where MK members stayed and where weapons were hidden.

MR HATTINGH: And these houses and premises which he pointed out, was there a search through these places after he pointed them out?

MR KLOPPER: Yes as far as I know.

MR HATTINGH: And was there any indication that those persons who lived in those residences were involved there?

MR KLOPPER: I don't know Chairperson, I don't know if there were any successes.

MR HATTINGH: Did you not get the impression that he was leading you on a wild goose chase?

MR KLOPPER: Not that I can recall Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: I don't know if you said but let me just check that you said in your application that nothing was found at these places?

MR KLOPPER: I think that was Major Grobbelaar's statement. I had an impression but I was not sure.

MR HATTINGH: Was Major Grobbelaar also present?

MR KLOPPER: Yes he was.

MR HATTINGH: And if he says in his affidavit that nothing was found would you accept it?

MR KLOPPER: Yes I would.

MR HATTINGH: Mr de Kock as commander, Mr Klopper I now know of our previous questioning of you and that you are not favourably inclined towards him, I don't know what your attitude is now but let us forget about your personal differences that you have had, was he a reasonably strict commander?

MR KLOPPER: If you please tell me what exactly are you trying to say with that?

MR HATTINGH: Was it a man who did not entertain any nonsense?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And also from the members of his branch?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And he acted strictly towards them?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: So they would also be physically disciplined if they acted in a manner in which he did not like?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And if he gave instructions were these instructions obeyed usually?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Do you think that people had respect for him as a commander?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And his instructions were not necessarily complied with because they were scared of him but because they had respect for him as well?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And at the same time they also realised that if they did not execute his instructions they would not be in his good books if I can put it as such?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: He would not necessarily hit them or anything in that nature but it would not count in their favour with him as commander if it was known that they were not willing to participate in any operation?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And this would be to the disadvantage of their career?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Mr Chairman, I wonder if I could request you to take the adjournment now, I would like to take instructions on a few matters before I proceed with my further cross-examination?

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll now take the adjourn till 2 o'clock.

C KLOPPER: (s.u.o.)

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: (cont)

Thank you Mr Chairman, Hattingh on record.

Mr Klopper just a few aspects. When you questioned Mr Mabotha at Marble Hall did you know that he turned back to ANC?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know that he was a trained MK member?

MR KLOPPER: That was the information that was given to me.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know that he had turned once again and took up the arms against the State again?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And that he was trained to sow death and destruction?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Mr du Toit we know, I forget his rank, Captain and I think he was a Lieutenant, but Lieutenant du Toit took a statement from him, were you present when this statement was taken from him?

MR KLOPPER: No I wasn't.

MR HATTINGH: I should have asked Mr Vermeulen about this but maybe you might be of assistance. During Mr de Kock's trial the person who was the prosecutor, Mr Ackerman, told the court that the Attorney General was at liberty to sign a contract with potential witnesses whereby he undertakes not to charge that witness if he gives his co-operation. Doesn't whether a court could give him indemnity or not, can you please tell us if such an undertaking was given to you before you testified against Mr de Kock?

MR KLOPPER: Yes such an undertaking was given to me.

MR HATTINGH: That you will not be prosecuted if you co-operated and although the court did not give you indemnity?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And the court, the charges that were laid against Mr de Kock, you received indemnity?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And then with regard to something in your statement, in your evidence in chief your attorney asked you about it, with regard to false claims. Is it correct that at a stage specifically towards the end of Vlakplaas or towards the end of the existence of Vlakplaas' unit false claims were put in by means of confirmation of amongst others of weapon caches?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And other excuses were used that persons might have dealt in falsified American dollars?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And then there were large amounts were paid out as remuneration for the so called information that was received?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Which would be paid out to the so called source who had given this information?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: But this was never paid to him and Mr de Kock kept most of the money and sometimes a small amount was given to you?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: I assume Mr Klopper that you don't know from personal knowledge what Mr de Kock did with the part of the money that he kept?

MR KLOPPER: No that's correct, I don't know.

MR HATTINGH: He could have kept a part of it for himself but he also could have used a large amount of the money for payment of costs as we have heard this morning for the costs to help Mr Flores from his financial position?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And we heard something of a heart by-pass operation that had to be paid?

MR KLOPPER: I don't know about that.

MR HATTINGH: Very well, those false claims which were filed and the money that you received for it, this was not remuneration for your participation in any operation, this was just fraud and Mr de Kock was charged and he was sentenced and he does not ask amnesty for those issues?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you Mr Chairman, we have no further questions.

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Chairman, Cornelius on behalf of Britz, Snyman, Vermeulen and Flores. I have no questions thank you.

MR DU PLESSIS: Mr Chairman, Roelof du Plessis on behalf of Mentz. No questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, Jan Wagener. Mr Klopper, I want to ensure that I understood you correctly. In our bundle there are two amnesty applications of yours. If you could just give me a moment to have a look? On page 30 and then there is another one that starts on page -I will tell you in a moment - and then on page 43 there is another one?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: This is probably where I don't understand properly, with the first application an annexure was attached to it that appears on page 37 where you deal in paragraph 3 with 19 incidents. Do you see that?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: And what causes this uncertainty is the fact that these nineteen incidents, are they still part of your amnesty application for which you request amnesty?

MR KLOPPER: If you would just give me a moment please?

Chairperson it seems that the one that appears on page 30, that starts from page 30 is the initial one which I completed myself and then the later one is the one which was dealt with in consultation with my attorney, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understood it, the question was what you set out at page 38 paragraph 3? That was what the question's about wasn't it?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: Very well, let me ask you in this manner, I see on page 38 for example there's a paragraph 3.2 where you refer to an incident which has regard to a client of mine, Mr Grobbelaar, I don't know whether you apply for amnesty for that but I would like to put it to you any way that Mr Grobbelaar denies these allegations that he was involved in this incident.

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I apply for amnesty for this and it remains as such.

MR WAGENER: And then for what it's worth, the following paragraph is 3.3, the matter of these false claims and so far as I represent General Engelbrecht, I'm not sure if you refer to him but if you do refer to him as one of the Generals, he denies that he ever authorised claims knowing that these were false claims.

MR KLOPPER: This is what I said in my evidence in chief Chairperson, the perception that the rest of the Vlakplaas members was that some of them knew of these claims.

MR WAGENER: And then on the same page 39 paragraph 3.8 where you deal with the incident of Sweet Sambo, you say there that on instruction of General Engelbrecht you went to Komatipoort, he denies that.

MR KLOPPER: Yes Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: What is stated there do you stand with your version?

MR KLOPPER: Yes I do Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: Did you see what Mr de Kock says with regard to this incident on page 67 of bundle 2?

MR KLOPPER: I did not read his statement Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: Where Mr de Kock says that he entered into this operation on his own initiative even after General Engelbrecht told him not to, he did indeed proceed?

MR KLOPPER: Is this on page 67 which I have in bundle 2? According to me this is the Mabotha incident, Chairperson.

MR LAMEY: I don't think the witness has that bundle.

MR WAGENER: Mr Chairman, this is bundle 2, it was referred to at the outset of this hearing under General by Mr de Kock and in that bundle he referred to a number of incidents and on page 67 of that bundle he referred to the Sweet Sambo incident and he gave evidence on this incident on I think it was the 24th May, at the outset of this hearing and that is the bundle I'm now referring to and I'm putting to this witness that Mr de Kock there gives a different version.

MR KLOPPER: I do not have any knowledge of that.

MR WAGENER: Do you stand by your version?

MR KLOPPER: I did not have any insight into any of the other statements and that's correct, I stand by my version.

MR WAGENER: Very well and then I would like to ask you briefly about the Mabotha incident. Did you perhaps or if you did not, you may ask your attorney if you have a copy of Mr Grobbelaar's statement, this is Exhibit Mabotha B.

MR KLOPPER: Mabotha B? I think so.

MR WAGENER: This is Mr Grobbelaar's statement.

Mr Klopper, he says or he initially deals with certain backgrounds that led to the arrest of Mr Mabotha and he in paragraph 3.4, he says that Mr du Toit arrested Mabotha at Marble Hall, do you see that?

MR KLOPPER: Yes I do.

MR WAGENER: And then he continues and says he heard that Mabotha was an askari and that he had liaised with your commander in Soweto, Mr Nienaber, in paragraph 3.1?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR WAGENER: And then on the following page he says, paragraph 4.3, he says he did not liaise with you to come to Marble Hall. I understand it was arranged by Brigadier Nienaber?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, Major Grobbelaar called us, called Lieutenant Jacobs and I and we went there.

MR WAGENER: Can you please tell us where does Mr van Tonder appear in this picture?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I don't remember whether he was already at Marble Hall or whether he drove with myself and Lieutenant Jacobs.

MR WAGENER: Mr Grobbelaar says that the three of you arrived there?

MR KLOPPER: It's possible Chairperson but I cannot pertinently remember it.

MR WAGENER: And then Mr Grobbelaar says that the following day on the farm he was basically not present the whole day, he gives a long - he tells us what happened there but he says that the result of it was that he was not at the farm, basically the whole day he was not present?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I cannot pertinently remember it.

MR WAGENER: He also further states that he was not there when Mr Mabotha was assaulted.

MR KLOPPER: I cannot pertinently remember that, Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: And that he did not participate in any assault?

MR KLOPPER: I don't remember that Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: What is it that you don't remember?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot pertinently remember whether he was there the whole day and whether he left there as he states in his statement.

MR WAGENER: Maybe I have to put it to you clearly, can you dispute his version if he says that he was not there that day?

MR KLOPPER: No, as I have already said I remember that when we returned to Soweto there was trouble with the lights of his car and it might be possible, I can't remember it as such.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can remember clearly that he was there at the end of the day when it was already dark when you returned to Soweto?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: He also says that after you returned that same evening to Soweto you went along with Mr Mabotha where he pointed out certain sites to you, he says it was at a place with the name of Toekomsrus, can you remember that?

MR KLOPPER: I don't remember that.

MR WAGENER: Is it possible?

MR KLOPPER: It is possible but I do not pertinently remember it.

MR WAGENER: But that during these pointings out that nothing was found?

MR KLOPPER: I don't remember that, Chairperson.

MR WAGENER: You did not drive back in the vehicle of Mr Grobbelaar?

MR KLOPPER: No, I did not.

MR WAGENER: Thank you Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MARIBANA: J A C Maribana on record.

Mr Klopper, I just want to find out what part did you take in the assault of Mr Mabotha?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot pertinently remember what my specific part was but I did participate in the assault.

MR MARIBANA: And are you in a position maybe to recollect what part did other members of Vlakplaas and Soweto security branch, did they take in assaulting Mr Mabotha?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson what I indeed recall was this was the first instance and the last where I saw where the ice blocks were used as I explained. This was Riaan Bellingan. The rest, it's difficult to say what each member specifically did, I cannot remember it pertinently but as I have said they tried to smother him with an inner tube and assault by means of punching and kicking him.

MR MARIBANA: And yesterday there was evidence before this Honourable Committee that you take part by putting ice blocks up Mr Mabotha's anus, what can you say about that?

MR KLOPPER: If you can please repeat that please?

MR LAMEY: Mr Chairman, I don't recall that specifically anyone referred to Mr Klopper being specifically partaking in that. There's no such evidence in my recollection.

MR MARIBANA: Honourable Chairman, let me just check my notes please.

ADV SANDI: My recollection is that the reference was made specifically to Mr Bellingan and according to Colonel de Kock that is when he decided to withdraw because he had not seen this type of torture before but there was no specific reference as far as I recall to Mr Klopper as having taken part in that.

MR LAMEY: Yes.

MR MARIBANA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll withdraw that line of questioning.

And would you be in a position to be able to tell this Honourable Committee as to how long did the questioning take place?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, as far as I recall it was in the morning more or less when we went to the farm where the interrogation took place and what I indeed remember is that we returned that evening to Soweto so I have to make an inference that it was probably more or less one day.

MR MARIBANA: So if I understand you correctly, the questioning took place the whole day?

MR KLOPPER: As far as I recall that's correct yes.

MR MARIBANA: Was there breaks taken during that questioning?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot specifically recall. If I tell you that specifically Lieutenant Jacobs and I went and bought some food but I cannot recall specifically.

MR MARIBANA: And it might be possible that members of the security branch both from Vlakplaas, Soweto and Marble Hall, they might be having breaks between themselves but the questioning didn't have a break?

MR KLOPPER: It's possible, I cannot specifically tell you.

CHAIRPERSON: In that connection, where did the questioning take place?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, it was on a farm just outside Marble Hall if I recall correctly. It was in a - if I recall correctly, there was a type of lapa, an open area where it took place, I cannot specifically remember but it was not in a house, that I do remember.

CHAIRPERSON: Because my recollection is that we have had evidence that the suffocation took place in a room and the hanging up upside down took place outside?

MR KLOPPER: As far as I recall it was outside all the time Chairperson, I don't remember if there was even a house where we were.

MR MARIBANA: Thank you Mr Honourable Chair.

Mr Klopper, you told this Honourable Committee that the injuries which were sustained by Mr Mabotha were visible, is that so?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot remember the pertinent injuries but my recollection of the assault is that it was indeed so that injuries had to be visible.

MR MARIBANA: So would you be in a position maybe to tell this Honourable Committee what type of injuries did Mr Mabotha sustain?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot specifically remember.

MR MARIBANA: So from the farm did you go straight to Soweto?

MR KLOPPER: As far as I remember we went directly there, we went to Protea security branch which is the headquarters of Soweto security.

MR MARIBANA: Did the questioning take place at Soweto or at Protea as you've just indicated?

MR KLOPPER: It's the same place, it's a police complex in Soweto, Chairperson.

MR MARIBANA: What I'm saying, did the questioning continue there?

MR KLOPPER: I have said so, yes it did.

MR MARIBANA: And Mr Klopper, tell me, what information did come up during the questioning, do you still remember what actually you managed to get out of Mr Mabotha?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I have already given evidence that I cannot recall specifically which information emanated but I can recall that there was information with regard to safe houses. That is why we went to search these houses.

MR MARIBANA: So if I understand you correctly, you can't tell whether that information came from Mr Mabotha or somebody came up with that information?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I can't recall it that way.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he taken with you when you went to search these safe houses?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, it never functioned that way that we would take the person with us into the house but he accompanied us to identify the houses which were later searched.

MR MARIBANA: And nothing was found in those houses, is that correct?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall.

ADV SANDI: Do you know as a matter of fact whether such houses after he had pointed them out were subsequently searched?

MR KLOPPER: Yes, houses were indeed searched but I cannot recall whether we achieved any success but we did search houses. I think Mr Grobbelaar stated it similarly in his affidavit, that houses were searched.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR MARIBANA: With whom were you when you were going to identify or to search these safe houses, can you still remember?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I cannot recall who I travelled with, I just know there was a large convoy of vehicles and all of these vehicles drove in and among one another so I cannot recall with whom we travelled.

CHAIRPERSON: I think you have already said that the people who engaged in the searches were those who had been at Marble Hall?

MR KLOPPER: As far as I can recall, the members of marble hall didn't return too Soweto. I know that Mr de Kock and Mr Bellingan but it would have been people from Soweto who searched the houses with us.

CHAIRPERSON: The Soweto people?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MR MARIBANA: And then Mr Klopper, okay I heard you saying that you can't remember what type of information you've managed to get out of Mr Mabotha. When did you hear that Mr Mabotha has returned to the ANC and then he had made the contact with Winnie Mandela, when did you hear that?

MR KLOPPER: The first time that I came to hear of Mabotha's existence was at Marble Hall, that was the first time I came to know of him, that was the first and the last day that I saw Mabotha. So everything that I observed took place on that day.

CHAIRPERSON: Well not only what you observed, what you heard. You were being asked when did you hear that he had reverted to the uMkhonto weSizwe and that he had had connections with Mrs Mandela.

MR KLOPPER: Everything emerged during that day.

ADV SANDI: Was that information coming from him or were you being told by?

MR KLOPPER: It was from the members who were present there.

MR MARIBANA: So on that aspect, do you still remember actually who came up with that information?

MR KLOPPER: No, I cannot recall precisely.

MR MARIBANA: Thank you Mr Chair, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Was that the first time you heard about the tapping of these telephone calls?

MR KLOPPER: No, it was general knowledge at Soweto security branch that Winnie Mandela's phone was being tapped.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination? Sorry, sorry.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Ramula Patel.

Just a couple of clarifying questions. You stated that it was Mr Bellingan who had used the ice on Mr Mabotha, is that correct?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Do you have any idea where the ice came from?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I cannot recall, it may be when we went to purchase the food but I cannot remember exactly where the ice came from.

MS PATEL: Okay, was Mr de Kock present at that time when the ice was used?

MR KLOPPER: As far as I can recall yes.

MS PATEL: And it was used at the time that Mr Mabotha was hung upside down?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

MS PATEL: Mr de Kock has already stated that he assisted in hanging Mr Mabotha upside down. Can you recall who else would have assisted?

MR KLOPPER: I can't recall, it may have been that I participated in helping to do this.

MS PATEL: Okay, can you recall what Mr de Kock's role specifically was besides the fact that he was in charge from the Vlakplaas side? What he did or what he said, do you have any recollection of this?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall precisely but it is possible for the reason that he was the commander of Vlakplaas, he would have posed questions regarding the activities from the farm that he had left. I cannot recall exactly.

MS PATEL: Can you recall whether Mr de Kock had posed questions to Mr Mabotha during the interrogation or whether it was during - there might have been a break in between and the assault on him?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I cannot recall.

MS PATEL: The information that was given by Mr Mabotha at the interrogation regarding the identity of his cohorts and also the place where the weapons might have been stored, was Mr de Kock present at that time, can you remember?

MR KLOPPER: I cannot recall.

MS PATEL: Okay, there was just one other aspect. Sorry Honourable Chairperson, if you'd grant me a moment?

ADV SANDI: If I could just come in while you're trying to decide which question to ask?

Do you know if anything was found in his possession, Mr Mabotha?

MR KLOPPER: No Chairperson, I do not know.

ADV SANDI: Do you know if he was forced to take off his clothes or what?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, usually the person ...(inaudible)

MS PATEL: ...(inaudible) I needed to put as well, but if the ice was used, he would have been stripped, not so?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that's logical.

MS PATEL: Okay. Finally, your sense of Mr Mabotha, was he very difficult during the interrogation process, was he quite a tough person?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, there were various occasions upon which persons would be interrogated and information would not emanate freely towards us but I cannot tell you exactly whether Mr Mabotha was someone who fought against it, I can't recall exactly.

MS PATEL: Okay thank you. Thank you Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR LAMEY: No re-examination Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Klopper, you were at Soweto, you were stationed at Soweto security police. There is a statement from Johannes Mabotha in which among others he states that he testified in some cases against ANC members and that in fact when he was a state witness in one of these cases he was abducted from two people in Mamelodi. Do you know anything of that sort?

MR KLOPPER: I have no knowledge about that.

MR SIBANYONI: And also as a person from Soweto security police there is a statement of Mr Potgieter who says Johannes Mabotha was supposed to be taken and kept safe at Vlakplaas and not to be eliminated. What do you know in connection with that?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, after the incident and the searching of the houses I had nothing further to do with him. I don't know whether that was the case or not.

MR SIBANYONI: What would you say if someone will say that is sort of a perception that it would appear his allegation that he was abducted could be correct in the sense that he pointed out certain safe houses. You people said nothing could be found, no arm caches could be found and there is this allegation that Winnie Mandela sent him to Botswana and only to talk about Stompie Sipei and if really he was a danger to the security police one would have expected him to be talking about Vlakplaas. There is nothing which you people from Soweto security police discovered which he has disclosed to the ANC about Vlakplaas and is my supposition correct?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, I have no commentary about that, I don't know anything about it.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: You have in your statement dealt with various incidents about money, do you remember them?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: On page 39 in paragraph 3.4 you talk about De Kock taking ninety thousand and giving you ten thousand?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And at page 38, the bottom of the page you also talk about money for lunches, hunting trips?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And the same at page 40. You've told that there you were trying to rob a Mr Jerome Marais?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say you gave the diamonds and jewellery to Ferdi Barnard to sell but you never got anything back?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this sort of thing happening all the time at Vlakplaas or were you the only person involved in this sort of thing?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, all the members at Vlakplaas who had access to the secret fund generated money in that fashion. During the De Kock hearing many charges were put to him upon which he was found guilty, charges of fraud.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes but I'm not only talking about him, I'm talking about the other members of Vlakplaas.

MR KLOPPER: Yes, that is what I'm saying, it was general practice at Vlakplaas, all those members who had access to the secret fund.

CHAIRPERSON: But who were those members?

MR KLOPPER: All the White members and some of the Black section members.

CHAIRPERSON: And they all profited from it?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And this had nothing to do with their salaries as policemen, this was their benefits for working at Vlakplaas?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And they were quite substantial benefits?

MR KLOPPER: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Lamey, maybe I should directly question from you, what was the intention of attaching the statement at page 37, 38 and 39? Is he also in these proceedings applying for amnesty for these other incidents or not?

MR LAMEY: No Mr Chairman, may I just point to you the introductory paragraph in the supplementary application which starts at - well the supplementary application starts at 43 but then in the annexure thereto, I must just find myself here, there's a paragraph 1 introduction, which is found on page 48. In other words with the intention there was that those incidents referred to in his supplementary application, they've all been listed with the heading like the Mabotha Incident, we don't have everything in his supplementary application here but the intention was here not to refer any longer to other aspects that clearly does not have anything to do with a political objective and the intention is to disregard those as part of the initial application for that purpose because clearly it doesn't qualify for any amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: It's really to substitute this secondary application or his original application?

MR LAMEY: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: If the originals are not repeated they are to be ignored?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY: Yes. Where specific incidents are repeated they are supplemented as such to give more detail and etc. etc.

May I just ask just one question just to follow up Mr Chairman?

Mr Klopper just to join up with the question put by the Chairperson. You have given evidence about it and it's no longer a secret that at Vlakplaas these false claims were instituted and that various members drew benefits from that?

MR KLOPPER: Yes that is correct.

MR LAMEY: This specific money which was generated by means of false claims, can you tell us whether it was paid out to somebody specific with regard to general services which were rendered or to fulfil a personal need?

MR KLOPPER: I'm not certain what you mean by that?

MR LAMEY: The funds which were generated by means of false claims, do you know whether any of these funds were used to pay members for general delivery of services or specifically in assistance of somebody with a determined financial emergency?

MR KLOPPER: Chairperson, De Kock helped those people who were experiencing problems but he wouldn't be paid to go and do his specific job. For example the killing of Mabotha. A person would not be paid to kill someone specific, that was not what it was about.

MR LAMEY: Well let's suppose parallel to specific orders which were given and specific operations which were then executed in order to achieve a specific objective which was aimed against the liberation movements, there would at times behind the scenes be these false claims and fraudulent actions?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If I understand what you've said and the other evidence that we've heard, there were occasions when Mr de Kock assisted people, heart operation we've heard about, matters of that nature, that there was the other constant bleeding, if we can use that word, of the funds by everybody at Vlakplaas for their own personal benefits?

MR KLOPPER: Yes Chairperson, this is as I've given evidence. Sometimes there would be functions, there would also be functions among ourselves not only for senior staff members and the secret fund would then be milked if I may put it that way.

CHAIRPERSON: And it seemed to have been done on a sort of commission basis, that Mr de Kock needed ninety thousand for some function and you happened to be there and you took an extra ten for yourself?

MR KLOPPER: Yes, the money would then be divided by him.

CHAIRPERSON: And he might have given another ten to somebody else, five thousand to some here?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And this was a constant?

MR KLOPPER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAMEY: No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR LAMEY: That is the evidence for the applicants, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Is there any other evidence to be led?

MR ROSSOUW: Rossouw, Mr Chairman, I do not intend to call Mr Potgieter though I would submit that that concludes the application as far as it goes to this incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Do the family wish to call anyone?

MR MARIBANA: No Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Leader of evidence?

MS PATEL: No I don't Honourable Chairperson, except I just wish to place on record regarding your query yesterday in respect of the court records where Mr Mabotha would have been involved in giving evidence. Unfortunately those records have been disposed of a long time ago so we do not have access to them.

MR ROSSOUW: Sorry Mr Chairman, Rossouw again. May I also give you an indication as to your query about that yesterday, especially in the light that some people take the point that the client that I represent and myself have the direct line with the Attorney General, I have taken the liberty of trying to establish from the Attorney General what has happened in those cases. We have not been able to determine what has happened and whether there was in fact prosecutions or not. I'm still awaiting a final answer but I haven't had a response from the Attorney General right until this time.

CHAIRPERSON: I gather from what else you told me Ms Patel, this is not only the Attorney General or Magistrates Court that has problems but that you have not been able to obtain the complete statement that was handed in at the Section 29 hearing, that also appears to have disappeared as these things do. I think perhaps if we're going to place these things on record, it should be placed on record which may explain the difficulty of obtaining the records, that the one record that the one he was apparently giving evidence in while he disappeared was at a circuit or district court, wasn't it?

MS PATEL: That is correct, it is a circuit court Honourable Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So their records would probably not be as available as an ordinary court where there's a book that they write in every morning. We can just hope if you will continue with your questioning of the Attorney General, if one can find out anything as to times and things it might be helpful. Thank you. Does anybody want to start talking now or would you rather talk tomorrow morning because we won't finish tonight. What time gentlemen? Ms Patel? Half past nine, ten?

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, will you then excuse me for about half an hour tomorrow morning?

CHAIRPERSON: You mean you don't want to listen to the other argument?

MR ROSSOUW: I do Mr Chairman, unfortunately I've got another matter to attend to at 10 o'clock but I'll be here about half past ten.

CHAIRPERSON: So starting at half past nine wouldn't help you it would just make it more inconvenient. But rather go and attend to the other matter and get here when you can.

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll start at 10 o'clock.