--------------------------------------------------------------------------ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: To start the proceedings, for the record today is Thursday, 24th of June 1999. We are continuing with the session of the Amnesty Committee, sitting at JISS Centre in Johannesburg. We were still dealing with the application of Xolani Mnguni. Ms Van der Westhuizen, what is the position with the application at this stage?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairperson, the whereabouts of certain witnesses who might be able to assist the Committee to come to a final decision in this matter, became known to me last night, it was actually confirmed that there are still people who is residing in the Jabulani hostel. I was also given further names of other witnesses. At this stage I do not know what they can add or how they can assist, but it seems that they are available, it is people who travelled on the same train as the train that the applicant travelled on. At this point in time I would request to at least have a week or two weeks indulgence from this Committee to enable me to prepare affidavits for these people or these potential witnesses, if I find that they might contribute at all and also at the same time, hand in a written argument. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just give us a date 14 days hence?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Mr Chairperson, I should be able on the 9th of July, that is approximately two weeks.

CHAIRPERSON: The 9th?

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: The 9th of July. I will however attempt, as soon as I am ready with the affidavits, it might be during the course of next week, I believe the Honourable Members are still sitting together next week, so therefore I will actually endeavour to try and get those affidavits to you during the course of next week, but should I not succeed, I would rather like to have another week's grace, which is the 9th of July, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Yes, Mr Steenkamp, I assume you don't have any objection?

ADV STEENKAMP: No Mr Chairman, I do not have anything to add. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Under the circumstances, the applicant is allowed an opportunity to submit any further evidence in the form of affidavits as well as the written argument on his behalf to the Amnesty Committee on or before the 9th of July 1999.

MS VAN DER WESTHUIZEN: Thank you Mr Chairperson, may I be excused?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you are excused Ms Van der Westhuizen, thank you very much for your assistance. Mr Steenkamp, is the next matter that of Seshange?

ADV STEENKAMP: I beg your pardon, yes, Mr Chairman, it is Temba Petros Seshange, amnesty number 5250/96. The applicant is in custody, he is present, his legal representative will be Mr Mbandazayo, we are ready to proceed, thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, while I am speaking, if I may just be afforded the opportunity to reveal something about the victims, although this was charges of attempted murder, we have actually located two of the victims, we were informed that they are not really in a position to attend the hearing for whatever reason. The third victim, a certain Mr, apparently Mr Naidoo has left the country and could not be traced as far as Section 19(4) requirements are concerned, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you satisfied that we are able to proceed with the matter?

ADV STEENKAMP: Yes Mr Chairman, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Then for the purposes of the record, it is the amnesty application of Temba Petros Seshange, AM5250/96. The Panel is constituted as indicated earlier. Mr Mbandazayo, do you want to just put yourself on record?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members of the Committee, my name is Lungelo Mbandazayo and I am representing the applicant in this matter, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. The Evidence Leader is Adv Steenkamp. Mr Mbandazayo, is there anything else that you want to add or do you want us to administer the oath to your client?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson, I would like the Committee to administer the oath Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seshange, can you hear the translation?

MR SESHANGE: Yes, I can hear you.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand. Are your full names Temba Petros Seshange?

MR SESHANGE: Yes.

TEMBA PETROS SESHANGE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: You may be seated. Mr Mbandazayo?

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, the Committee I think has got two affidavits. The first one in the Bundle was the one which was submitted to the then State President for indemnity.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, what page is that?

MR MBANDAZAYO: It is from page 15 Chairperson, to page 20. The second affidavit starts from page 12 to page 14, which of course Chairperson, was supplementary to the one which was submitted to the State President for indemnity.

CHAIRPERSON: And was that one submitted to the Amnesty Committee?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: The second one is the one that was submitted to the Amnesty Committee?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson. And Chairperson, I propose to use the second one from page 12 as a basis for this application and also the Committee and my Honourable Members will be free to ask questions also in regard to the first affidavit, but for purposes of leading evidence, I will use the one from page 12 Chairperson, thank you. Chairperson, I will proceed to read for the record, the first affidavit. The affidavit reads thus -

Chairperson, I am not proposing to ask any further questions to the witness, I will leave it to the Committee and the Leader of Evidence to ask any questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, can we just confirm with Mr Seshange, you have listened to what Mr Mbandazayo has read out now, the affidavit that you have made?

MR SESHANGE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm the contents of that affidavit as true and correct?

MR SESHANGE: That is correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, just before the Committee and the Leader of Evidence ask any questions, I would like to turn to page 3 of the affidavit, page 14, this Skubu, the name Skubu Chairperson, I have managed to get the name of the, the real name, it is David Dube, he is a member of National Intelligence, NIA, at the present moment Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the name?

MR MBANDAZAYO: David, David Dube, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say he is a member of National ...

MR MBANDAZAYO: National Intelligence Agency.

CHAIRPERSON: Agency, okay.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Presently?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Presently Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Steenkamp, have you got any questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seshange, the Unit that you joined under the command of Brian, was that based in Tembisa?

MR SESHANGE: Yes, it was based in Tembisa.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, was it a Task Force Unit or was it an APLA Unit or what was it?

MR SESHANGE: Brian's Unit was an APLA Unit.

CHAIRPERSON: At the time of this incident, was Jerry KK that you referred to in the affidavit, was he the Commander of that Unit?

MR SESHANGE: He became a Commander once Brian had left.

CHAIRPERSON: The name Jerry KK, what is that, is that a combat name or what was that, is that his, is Jerry his real name or ...

MR SESHANGE: That is his code name.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know his real name?

MR SESHANGE: I only got to know him as Freddy Matibela when I met him at the Police station.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Freddy Matibela?

MR SESHANGE: Matibela.

CHAIRPERSON: You say you met him at the Police station, was he also arrested?

MR SESHANGE: He was arrested in Witbank after I had been arrested.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he also charged with this attempted robbery?

MR SESHANGE: No, he was not charged, but we were interrogated all together.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you the only one that was charged with this incident?

MR SESHANGE: No, Wando Silegeno, Jacob Xaba and Dalisolo as well as Immanuel Tsotetsi were also charged.

CHAIRPERSON: So it is Xaba, Tsotetsi and who is the other one?

MR SESHANGE: Futi Dalisolo.

CHAIRPERSON: Were they convicted or what happened to them?

MR SESHANGE: They were acquitted.

CHAIRPERSON: They were acquitted on this, is it on this attempted robbery charge?

MR SESHANGE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you all charged with the same offences?

MR SESHANGE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Was your case heard at Protea Court in Soweto?

MR SESHANGE: After the Judge who was presiding, the case initially was heard at Westgate and the Presiding Judge was later transferred to Protea Court where the case was equally transferred with him.

CHAIRPERSON: Was this in the Regional Court?

INTERPRETER: May the question please be repeated?

CHAIRPERSON: Was this case heard in the Regional Court?

MR SESHANGE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I see that you are serving 15 years. What was the overall sentence that was given to you if you can remember?

MR SESHANGE: Initially the sentence was 27 years.

CHAIRPERSON: And you must serve 15 of those 27 years?

MR SESHANGE: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And then just one other thing, did you intend to form a new Unit in Katlehong, another Unit?

MR SESHANGE: Yes, we had already established such a Unit, only that we did not have the necessary material.

CHAIRPERSON: The operation was intended to obtain funds to assist this new Unit that you had formed, would that be correct?

MR SESHANGE: Partly yes, but part of the money would go to the organisation.

CHAIRPERSON: Just one final thing, the Unit that you commanded, was that established simply just for this operation, for the purposes of this operation? It was not a new Unit in Katlehong?

MR SESHANGE: No. There was supposed to be a Unit at Katlehong.

CHAIRPERSON: But this what you refer to as a Unit, the members of your APLA Unit that were assigned to doing this operation and you were commanding that group of members?

MR SESHANGE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Are there other questions?

DR TSOTSI: In paragraph 6 of your affidavit, you mention that you were a Unit of four and the fifth one was Wando Silegeno. Was Wando Silegeno a member of your Unit?

MR SESHANGE: Yes, he was a member of the Unit, but he was not operating with me.

DR TSOTSI: In paragraph 7 you say that he was also one of two security guards, is that correct?

MR SESHANGE: Yes, as I indicated earlier on that he was a member of the Unit, but on this particular day he was at work.

DR TSOTSI: I just want to understand, if he was a member of your Unit, what security guard was he then, was he - what was he guarding?

MR SESHANGE: I would say he was a member of my Unit and at the same time, he was employed elsewhere, working for a company which we intended repossessing from. He was working at that company on that particular day.

ADV GCABASHE : Thank you. I am interested in the area of lines of authority as opposed to using your own initiative. You state here that in paragraph 4, that Jerry KK came with the idea that you should start the Unit in Katlehong. He then also came with the idea of fundraising for this new Unit, but when it came to deciding on the operation, the nature of the operation, the target that you were going to hit, whose decision was that, Jerry's or yours as the Commander of the Unit that was going to carry out the operation?

MR SESHANGE: I was reporting to Jerry, so that I would have to inform him of any decision that I was taking, informing him on matters pertaining to a place or a target that had been identified, etc.

ADV GCABASHE : Did you in fact do this, did you discuss the detail of the operation with Jerry?

MR SESHANGE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE : And he sanctioned the operation as your Overall Commander?

MR SESHANGE: Yes.

ADV GCABASHE : Then the report that you submitted to the PAC office, was that a report to Jerry, you know report of how the mission had panned out, worked out, or was that a separate report as required by Head Office, which I perceive as a different area of authority? Just explain that to me.

MR SESHANGE: After the operation, the following morning, I was arrested so that I lost contact with Jerry and when I was released on bail, I was released only to learn that Jerry had just been arrested for other cases so that I had to report to the Head Office on what transpired. By rights Jerry was supposed to report but he could not, because he had been arrested.

ADV GCABASHE : And then the term of sentence that you are serving is in respect of both the armed robbery, that is the arrest of May and in respect of the arms and ammunition, which is the arrest of March that you got bail for?

MR SESHANGE: When I was arrested, these charges were brought together.

ADV GCABASHE : Thank you. Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes, thank you Mr Seshange, you are excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any other witnesses Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I am not intending to call another witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the case for the applicant?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is the evidence of the applicant and his case.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Steenkamp, is there anything else?

ADV STEENKAMP: No further witnesses from my side, Mr Chair, thank you sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, have you got any submissions?

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Yes Chairperson. Chairperson, let me start by saying before I go to argument, just to clarify one aspect so that the Committee, but I know that Members of the Committee, Adv Gcabashe has canvassed it, the report. Chairperson, the David Dube which I gave you, David Dube, the name I gave you who was Skubu, the report that was given to Skubu, Skubu was in the Head Office, was a member of APLA and he was senior, then he was in Head Office, which means the Head Office of PAC and APLA were in the same place. After he was arrested, he sent Mandla Cebekhulu who was a Branch Chairman, PAC Branch Chairman, to the applicant when he was released on bail that he must make a report to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was the Branch Chairman?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mandla Cebekhulu was a Branch Chairman who was sent, when he is saying that Mandla Cebekhulu asked him to report, to make a report to the Head Office, it was the Head Office of APLA, not necessarily the Head Office of PAC, but they were in the same place, in the same building. It was the Head Office of APLA, so it was needed by APLA since his immediate Commander was arrested. This is how it happened that it was directed to the Head Office.

Chairperson, having moved, clarified that aspect, it is my submission that if one looks at the record and looks at the report, Chairperson, one was left with one thing in his mind, that it is clear there is no reason that the PAC or APLA would have known about this incident when the applicant was arrested, that it was their operation if this was not sanctioned at a higher level of APLA. It is clear that the reason why he was asked to make that report was because they have already had prior knowledge that this was their operation.

ADV GCABASHE : But you are saying APLA, not necessarily the PAC, but APLA as his structure?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, APLA as the structure. It is Chairperson, therefore my assumption without saying anything that Jerry, it is clear that Jerry had already communicated to his immediate seniors that there are this kind of operation, this was our operation. Definitely Chairperson, if it was not their operation, there would be no reason for them to go and pay bail for him and subsequently afforded legal representation by the PAC in his case, where he was represented by Mr Mafundla who happened also at the same time, at that particular point in time, was a member of the PAC.

Chairperson, it is therefore my submission that the operation in which, the incident in which Mr Seshange was involved in, was indeed APLA operation and therefore the operation was in that sense, politically motivated as the purpose of the operation was to carry out the mission of APLA. As correctly put in the affidavit, I don't need to deal with it, especially the affidavit which was dealing with his indemnity Chairperson, the purpose when it was submitted to the State President, former State President, that he must be released because what he did, was in pursuance of the political struggle at that particular point in time. Chairperson, also that aspect on its own, the applying for him for indemnity by the PAC then, which was done at that particular point in time by then Adv Digang Mosenege, who happened to know, who drafted this application for him for indemnity, so that on its own, indicates that this operation was known, was communicated also to the leadership of PAC, everybody was well aware that what was done by Mr Seshange was in pursuance of the political struggle which was waged at that particular point in time, then they had to secure his release.

Without worrying you with argument Chairperson, it is therefore my submission that the applicant has complied with the requirements of Section 20, subsection 1 and also subsection 2, that he was quite clearly acting on behalf of APLA, a publicly known political organisation and a liberation movement, which was engaged in a political struggle against the State at that time. Chairperson, it is therefore, I don't need to deal with the Sections, it is well known to the Committee that the applicant has established that he was acting on behalf of APLA and that Chairperson, that he had made a full disclosure regarding his participation in this incident.

Chairperson, that he did not act for political gain, sorry Chairperson, for personal gain Chairperson, sorry Chairperson, not for personal gain Chairperson, sorry Chairperson, through you Chairperson. He did not act for personal gain, he acted on behalf and therefore Chairperson, it is also my submission that he had established that all his actions were politically motivated and therefore Chairperson and Honourable members of the Committee, it is therefore my submission and my humble request that the applicant has met the requirements of the Act and therefore request the Committee to grant him the application as requested. That is all Chairperson, unless the Committee would like me to address it on any other specific point.

CHAIRPERSON: Just, what happened to the indemnity application?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, the indemnity application as it is contained here, they were transferred at the time when it was made, it was at the time when this idea of amnesty, truth and reconciliation was conceived, then it was transferred to the Amnesty Committee and then he had to make an application in terms of the forms of the TRC and also it was attached, so the State President, the office of the State President transferred it to the Amnesty Committee so that it can deal with it.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP IN ARGUMENT: Mr Chairman, only one I can maybe just point out that at the time of the indemnity application, at the specific time the application was launched, the Act of the TRC came into operation which evoked the previous Act on indemnity. I actually have got certain documents in my possession that can show that. So the Indemnity Act was actually revoked, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Adv Steenkamp. Yes, that concludes the application before us. We will consider the matter and we will notify the parties once the decision in the matter is available. We thank you for your assistance.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Seshange, you are excused. The remaining matter to my knowledge is the one of Mr Khala.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: The matter of Mr Monti is not proceeding as we understand it, Mr Mbandazayo, is that correct?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, the application of Mr Monti as I earlier indicated in chambers Chairperson, we would like it to be removed and be heard together with his other applications. Today we will only proceed with Mr Khala's application, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

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ON RESUMPTION:

CHAIRPERSON: For the purposes of the record then, the next application is that of Sithembele Michael Khala, reference number AM3827/96. The Panel as well as the representations are as indicated on the record in respect of the previous application. Mr Mbandazayo, is there anything that you want to raise before the matter commences or do you want your client to be sworn in?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I don't, it is just to find out I know that yesterday, whether as the Committee still have, there was an affidavit which I gave to my learned friend to be given to the Committee, which was supposed to be in the Bundle, I don't know how it was not attached, because that was submitted together with his application and everything.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the one of Barney Munto Shlatsayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, that one. The applicant can be sworn in Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Khala, in what language are you going to give your evidence?

MR KHALA: In English.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand and give your full names for the record.

MR KHALA: Sithembele Michael Cecil Khala.

SITHEMBELE MICHAEL CECIL KHALA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Yes Mr Mbandazayo?

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, for purposes of this application, I will use the affidavit which starts at page 25, which was submitted to the State President for his application for indemnity, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: While we are at it Mr Mbandazayo, we will mark the affidavit of Mr Shlatsayo as Exhibit A. You may proceed.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Khala, the affidavit which is in front of you, is also before the Honourable Members of the Committee, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?

MR KHALA: I do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, for purposes of the record, I will read this affidavit.

ADV GCABASHE : Mr Mbandazayo, might I just interrupt you. I noticed that under factual premise, paragraph 7 through to paragraph 9, are summarised in paragraph 10, the essence of that defence. Don't you want to, if it suits your case of course, just go to paragraph 10 which summarises the pages you would have skipped as I understand the papers before us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Honourable Member. I think Chairperson, if the Committee allows me that, I would also prefer that to jump it, Chairperson, to go to paragraph 10. Therefore Chairperson, I move to paragraph 10 of the affidavit on page 31.

Signed by the applicant. Chairperson, having read the affidavit, I would like just the applicant to explain a few aspects regarding his application. Mr Khala, you have in your application, in your affidavit set out in details and background and everything, now I would like you to take the Committee through the planning of this operation as it is not here in the affidavit. Where did you meet Vincent Mama, what did he say to you, the role, at what time did you meet the other operatives? Can you take the Committee through those stages?

MR KHALA: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman and members of the Committee. In the beginning, in fact, I never belonged to the Repossession Unit of APLA, I belonged to the Logistic Unit. At that time as I said in the affidavit, I was in full employment of the Media Workers' Association of South Africa as the General Secretary. Vincent Mama was the National Organiser of the same Union and at the same time he was the Co-ordinator of APLA internally. He linked and (indistinct) the internal wing and the external. He discussed this operation with me, the idea being to get me to assist in conveying the cadres to the area mentioned in the affidavit. We had a lengthy discussion. Vincent himself had his instructions from the Director of Operations, Letlapa Mpahlela. We discussed in particular about the target. Before I proceed with this particular incident, I would want to put this matter in context so that you have a better understanding of why this specific bank was chosen and why we went for these kinds of campaigns. The thrust of the PAC, the PAC struggle in this country has always been two-fold. On the one fold the PAC was fighting the national democratic revolution in terms of which they would be able to address issues of land, issues of politics, people, etc. The second part of our struggle, would be the social democratic revolution. The social democratic revolution would deal with issues of the means of production, the redistribution of wealth and the creation and (indistinct) of classes in society. The reason for that is very obvious, we were aware as the PAC as early as 1959 that unless that was done, we would be saddled with an unending problem of political independence with people who are poverty stricken, who are homeless and disease stricken as you would see the situation as it unfolds presently. In terms of our socialist democratic revolution, we were clearly at war with stacks of capital, we were clearly at war with industries and captains of industries, big business. The banks are the captains of big business and therefore they were a legitimate target, a legitimate target like the forces, the military forces, the Police of the enemy soldiers. In the same way that we were attacking oil installations during that part of the struggle, big business was also targeted, equally targeted and the reason for that is that oil installations were supplying liquidity to the grinding machine of capital and it was our determination to crush big business as part of the capital exploitation in this country. This is necessary to explain because people have never come to understand why PAC has embarked on this kinds of struggles. Our operations therefore, our fundraising operations therefore, were not by default, they were by design in terms of the founding documents, the basic documents of the Pan Africanist Congress of AZANIA. The second question is the choice of the specific target, Nedbank. There were also specific reasons why we chose the Nedbank for this particular operation. The one reason is that during my release or just after my release in 1986 from Robben Island, together with a number of comrades, we made attempts to open accounts at the Nedbank. Our attempts were turned down, our applications were turned down on the grounds of political involvement. A bank or a business that makes that kind of decision, I am yet to be told that that kind of decision does not constitute a political statement by that particular institution. As if that was not enough, the Nedbank of South Africa was operating overtly with the Security Forces in this country. They were part of the system that was stealing moneys intended for Trade Union operations and projects during the revolutionary struggle. It is now common cause that the Nedbank diverted funds that were meant for our project, to oil the crushing machinery, the evil machinery of Eugene de Kock amongst others, that crushed and killed our people in this country. By those actions, the Nedbank placed itself squarely in the firing line of the guns of liberation, there was no doubt that they had placed themselves as enemies of the liberation struggle. Therefore the choice of this operation was by design, we discussed it and we agreed that we were going to attack the Nedbank and we did.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khala, having outlined then also the reasons for attacking Nedbank and all that, can you further as I indicated earlier on, I would like to know in your discussion, the role that you were to play and the others, the roles that they were going to play, you take us through the events of that day up until at the time you were shot at and you were arrested. All of us were not there, you are the person to give a picture to the Committee as to what was happening just briefly.

MR KHALA: Vincent had returned from Zimbabwe the weekend of the 25th, the Sunday of the 25th and he briefed me on the 26th about this operation. I was reluctant initially but my reluctance had nothing to do with my conviction of whether or not I wanted to be part of the fundraising operation, it was more a reluctance of ego. I was a public figure at the time, I was the General Secretary of the Media Workers' Association and then also served in international committees. I selfishly thought of myself, what would happen if things went wrong, would I ever have the chance and opportunity to explain what happened? Those were natural fears that I harboured, but I agreed eventually to be part of the operation. He explained that my role would be limited to conveying these cadres and he told me the other people who were going to be involved. He told me that he had his instructions as I said earlier on from Zimbabwe, from Letlapa. On the morning of the 28th, on a Wednesday, Vincent and I, on the morning of the Wednesday, visited or went around the Nedbank in Simon Street and we drove in my car to the Johannesburg Sun hotel where I parked my car and I moved into the kombi that was to be used for that operation. We drove out of the Johannesburg Sun hotel and we collected the cadres in front of Lekton House in Wanderer Street. There probably were six of them, I was the seventh and we drove down to Simon Street Nedbank. I think we circulated the bank twice or thrice and we agreed that I was going to park at the adjacent street, Main street which forms the 90 degree corner of Simon. The cadres alighted in Simon Street and I parked the kombi in Main Street, the sliding door open to allow them to come back into the kombi. After some time, they reappeared from the bank and Moguadi was carrying a bag. They got into the kombi and we drove off. I followed the route that was agreed upon and down in Marshall Street as we were driving down Marshall Street, the Police confronted us. Marshall Street is a one way that moves from west to east and they were driving in the opposite direction, they were coming from west to east, coming to us. They were already firing and there was an exchange of fire in Marshall Street. There were cars in front of me and the robot was red, I could not proceed. I had to abandon the kombi in Marshall Street and as we were moving, running out of the kombi, I was shot. I fell and as I was laying down, I was shot again and again by the cops. Disego was also shot, he fell a few paces from where I was sleeping. We remained there for a very long time, probably an hour before we were given any medical assistance. Eventually we were taken to hospital. I must explain that I did not participate in the actual planning of the operation, as I have explained earlier on, I was not part of this Unit, I belonged to the Logistic Unit of APLA. I was loaned from that Unit to drive these cadres for that particular project.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now finally Mr Khala, what happened to the other cadre who was arrested with you, what happened to him?

MR KHALA: We went to hospital with Disego, I remained in hospital for a very long time, I think for more than six months and he left before me. He was arrested and placed at the Brixton Murder and Robbery Unit and after some time, I was told - or he appeared in court, after some time I was told that he had escaped from custody and subsequently he was shot and killed by the Police.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Steenkamp,

any questions?

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any idea how it came about that you were apprehended as you were leaving the scene of the robbery?

MR KHALA: Yes, from what the Police were telling me in the interrogation, during interrogation, that they knew about the operation. They never told me how they got to know about the operation, but they ambushed us.

CHAIRPERSON: So you gathered that they were aware of this operation before it was, did you gather that they were aware of this operation before it was executed?

MR KHALA: Yes. I think it was the 26th, because Vincent came back on Sunday, the Sunday was the 25th. He must have discussed it with me on the 26th, the Monday.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. But now coming to the Police, you gathered from your interrogation that the Police were aware of this operation before the time?

MR KHALA: Before the time, yes, before it actually took place, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And when they interrogated you, did you gather that they were aware that this was a APLA operation, it wasn't a normal criminal bank robbery?

MR KHALA: They actually told me that it was an APLA operation, I denied that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did they try to present the case against you in court on that basis as well?

MR KHALA: Yes, when they were opposing my bail application in the Magistrate's Court, they actually told the Magistrate that they were aware that this was planned by the PAC, that they have information and so on and so forth. I think it would appear on the bail application record, they mentioned it.

CHAIRPERSON: You avoided that aspect in your defence?

MR KHALA: I actually denied. The PAC was still a banned organisation at that time. I denied any link between the operation and the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Khala. Are there other questions? Any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, are there any other witnesses?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, none.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the applicant's case?

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is the applicant's case, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Steenkamp, is there anything else?

ADV STEENKAMP: Nothing Mr Chairman, I am not going to call any witnesses, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, have you got any submissions?

MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Yes Chairperson, that will be brief Chairperson. Chairperson, I would not like to detain the Committee on this, or bore it with my argument, suffice to say that I think Mr Khala has put it more eloquently, the position and therefore it is my submission that he has met the requirements of the Act that he should be granted amnesty on this aspect.

Chairperson, I would like the Committee in saying so, also taking the line from my previous argument that after the law had taken its course, when all the avenues were closed, he was ordered to serve the sentence, an application for indemnity was made which affidavit we have used as a basis for this application today, was made to the State President and also at page 5, Chairperson, we also have supporting affidavits of the then First Deputy President of the PAC, John Silemlambo and of course Chairperson, he was an obvious choice because during that operation then, before (indistinct), he was the Chairman of the Central Committee and he was the Commander in Chief of APLA. He was a suitable person to make that affidavit because APLA then fell squarely under him, hence the contents of the affidavit Chairperson at page 5.

Then also the affidavit Chairperson, which we handed to the Committee yesterday, which has been marked Exhibit B, also Barney Munto Shlatsayo, his affidavit, Exhibit A, thank you Chairperson, Exhibit A. Also a supporting affidavit and also himself, it was an obvious choice because he was the Chief of Staff. All these operations were falling squarely under him. Also the Director of Operations was falling under him, so in a way he was the man in action. Chairperson, those two affidavits and the application and the evidence of the applicant, clearly establishes the political motive for this operation. And also Chairperson, it is clear that he did not act for any personal gain and that he had made full disclosure regarding his involvement. He did not try and say and tell even the Committee that I was a part of that Unit and all that, he tells the Committee just clearly that I was even reluctant, I was selfishly reluctant thinking of my position, to be involved in this operation. He did not want even to fool the Committee and pretend as if he was part of the Unit, he tells them that I was part of another Unit, but I was loaned, I was requested just to drive on that Unit.

Chairperson, it is therefore my submission that this is one incident which clearly there is no doubt that it was done with a political objective and to fulfil a political mission and as such, it is my submission on behalf of the applicant, that he should be granted amnesty as he has met all the requirements of the Act. Thank you Chairperson.

ADV GCABASHE : Mr Mbandazayo, the indemnity application, did that again fall away because of the amnesty process coming into play?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, it did not also, through you Chairperson, also in itself, because of this Amnesty Committee was coming into being, it was also transferred to the Amnesty Committee, so the State President and also that he did not go to jail because of that, he had to wait until the outcome of this, so that is why he never went to serve the sentence, because of the application for indemnity.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he on bail or what was the position?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, he is on bail.

CHAIRPERSON: And he is still on bail?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Adv Steenkamp?

ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I've got nothing to add, maybe save to say that taking all the Police investigations into account, it would surely point to the fact that at least the evidence from the Police' side is supporting my learned colleague's argument to say the least. I can only just add that one of the Investigating Officers in this matter, Inspector Holmes, I know very well, I am not trying to give evidence, but I know him very well and I remember this case clearly from a while back. I have asked him actually the question of APLA and he says that they actually had information that this operation was an APLA operation. He used to be an Investigator attached to the Murder and Robbery Squad from the East Rand. For what it is worth Mr Chairman, I think it is just fair to put it before you. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Adv Steenkamp. Yes, I assume you wouldn't have anything else to add? I assume you won't have anything else to add?

MR MBANDAZAYO: No Chairperson, none.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. That concludes the proceedings before us. We will consider the matter and we will notify the parties as soon as the decision in the matter is available, the decision would accordingly be reserved. Yes, you are excused Mr Khala.

CHAIRPERSON: I assume that takes care of the roll?

ADV STEENKAMP: Unfortunately that will be the roll for this time, thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you Members.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. That concludes this session and all of the matters that were on the roll for us to consider.

In conclusion, we just want to extend our usual thanks to everybody who always make it possible for us to successfully have a hearing of this nature in public. It normally takes a lot of people and a lot of effort to make this possible and we always appreciate that.

We also thank you Mr Mbandazayo and Adv Steenkamp for your assistance in this matter and in the other matter as well. I would also just like to thank my colleagues on the Panel with me, for their assistance. We are adjourned.