--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Morning, everybody. I apologise for the late start. When we commence hearings there's a lot of setting up to do and other arrangements to be made which explains the late start. I apologise for any inconvenience caused by this. Before we start with this hearing today, that is the hearing of Messrs Modisane and Mogale, I'd just like to introduce the Panel to you. On my right is Adv Sigodi, she is a member of the Amnesty Committee and she hails from Port Elizabeth. On my left is Adv Bosman, also a member of the Amnesty Committee. She comes from the Cape. And I'm Selwyn Miller, a judge of the High Court from the Eastern Cape, attached to the Transkei Division of that Court. I'd just like to ask the legal representatives please to place themselves on record.

MR DLAVANE: Thank you, Chairperson. I am Adv Dlavane. I am here representing the two applicants who'll be appearing before you this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlavane.

MR MULLIGAN: May it please you, Mr Chairperson, I'm Andre Mulligan. I'm appearing on behalf of the Seane family, who are here because their aunt, Elizabeth Mwasa, died as a result of what happened in 1988. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mulligan.

MR SEABELA: Mr Chairperson, I am Bruno Seabela, I'm representing the Ntsime family who could not be here this morning, but who've given me instructions to represent them.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Seabela.

MS LOCKHAT: My name is Lyn Lockhat and I appear on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Lockhat. Mr Dlavane.

MR DLAVANE: Chairperson, may I call applicant no 1 as being, surname Modisane, first names Jonathan Pholele.

JONATHAN PHOLELE MODISANE (sworn and states)

EXAMINATION BY MR DLAVANE: Mr Modisane, you are here seeking an amnesty on an occurrence that took place on the 10th February 1988. Is that correct?

MR MODISANE: That is correct, sir.

MR DLAVANE: Can you briefly describe for the Committee what was your occupation then?

MR MODISANE: On that particular day, that is the 10th of February 1988, I was a driver, I was a member of the Bophuthatswana Defence Force, and I was a driver.

MR DLAVANE: What rank were you occupying in the Defence Force?

MR MODISANE: I was, I did not have a rank there. I did not have rank.

MR DLAVANE: Which Defence Force was that?

MR MODISANE: That was Bophuthatswana Defence Force.

MR DLAVANE: Now, as it has been introduced that you are seeking an amnesty for an occurrence of the 10th February 1988. Are you able to briefly describe for the Committee on this day what happened and what role did you play in the happenings of that day?

MR MODISANE: On that particular day, it was 2 o'clock in the morning. Before that, on the 9th at 11 o'clock, Sergeant Major Timothy Pirie called us and said that he wanted to tell us something. After some time, we assembled. He explained to us that there is an operation which we need to execute. He told us he will come back and that we should not leave the base on that particular day. We waited until 2 o'clock in the morning. He later arrived. At the time I was a driver. We took a truck, then he explained to us in details about that particular operation.

After that, we went to fetch arms in the storage. Each and every one was given a gun, a firearm. Then he sent us to drive to Geroma Building. When we arrived at Geroma Building ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what building?

MR MODISANE: Geroma, Geroma Building.

MR DLAVANE: To help, Chairperson, Geroma Building is the name of the building that houses government departments.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlavane.

MR MODISANE: When we arrived at Geroma Building, he said the drivers to stay in their vehicles and he said the passengers, that is members of the defence force, I would say those members of the Gat Unit, they went to Parliament. This is the building where they went, this is the old parliament where we went ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that we are now? This place, here.

MR MODISANE: Yes, that is correct. We are in the same yard.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Modisane, could you just give us an idea approximately how many people? You say that you were told, you and the other drivers were told to wait at the trucks and the others went to the parliament building. What were the numbers? What numbers are we talking about here?

MR MODISANE: Approximately 160 something people.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you all in uniform?

MR MODISANE: Yes, we were in uniform, all of us.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Sorry, Mr Dlavane.

MR MODISANE: The reason for us to stay behind was that the truck which I was driving was loaded with firearms. Then if they, they had shortage of firearms, or maybe if there is a threat of people who want to thwart the operation, then we will give them extra firearms. Then the other truck was just parked there, which was loading member of the defence force.

MR DLAVANE: Mr Modisane, you mentioned that you were called by a person called Timothy Pirie. Can you just describe for the Committee who is this Pirie, who was this Pirie? And how did he come to picture?

MR MODISANE: Timothy Pirie was a Sergeant Major, that is our Bophuthatswana Defence Protection Unit. He was the leader of the Unit and we received instructions from him.

MR DLAVANE: The other thing that I think you must clarify for the Committee is, you spoke of Pirie calling you into a meeting and advising you of an operation that was to be undertaken. What operation was that? Did he tell you?

MR MODISANE: He explained later that the operation involved the overthrowing of the government. He told us about that explanation around 11 o'clock that it was involving the overthrowing of the government.

MR DLAVANE: Did this Timothy Pirie explain the reasons for such an action?

MR MODISANE: Yes, he did explain the reasons.

MR DLAVANE: Just describe for the Committee the reasons that were outlined.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you may proceed now, Mr Modisane.

MR MODISANE: Sergeant Major Pirie explained to us that there is a lot of dissatisfaction about the government of that time. And then again we ...(indistinct) the various departments within the government, though he explained more about the Defence Force. He told us that there is maladministration within our department. Then he told us about nepotism. He told us about corruption. And then I gained that the whole community within Bophuthatswana are not satisfied and then he gave examples about chiefs who were removed from their positions. And then about forced removals. They were taken to various places which they did not like. Like killing animals, for example, donkeys which people used for transport. Those are the reasons which I'm able to remember at this time. Maybe I'll remember other reasons later.

MR DLAVANE: Mr Modisane, as this Timothy Pirie was addressing you on these reasons, you were a soldier by that time, did you agree with what he was saying to you?

MR MODISANE: Yes, I was agreeing with him because many of the reasons he stated, I was able to experience. For example, within the Defence Force, you'd find that at times there would be a white person who'd just come and pass at the gate, wanting to see General Temmer, then the following day that person would be employed on higher rank.

MR DLAVANE: Now, you were busy outlining as to what happened then on that actual day. We hear that you was a driver and guns were loaded and then what happened then?

MR MODISANE: After other members of the Defence Force left Geroma Building, whilst we were still at that place, we heard gunshots within the area of the parliament. We stayed there. We stayed there for if we were wanted we should be called. We waited there until six, five o'clock to six o'clock. Then I said to my co-driver that we should go to that particular place to find out what was happening. Then we used the truck I was driving.

When I arrived, I found that members of the Cabinet were taken out of their houses and then they were taken to the stadium including the former president, Chief Lucas Mangope. What was happening at the gate was that those who were coming with government cars, they were taken out.

MR DLAVANE: Now, Mr Modisane, we, the Committee hears that some of these things you indeed did experience them. Do you know if you experienced any means that was taken that failed to resolve these issues other than the action that Mr Pirie told you about, which was a coup on that day?

MR MODISANE: As I was a soldier, I did not know as to whether there are other alternative methods to resolve our problems. Because there were elections before this coup, then it is alleged that there was a widespread allegations that Malometsing's party won the elections but the elections were not free and fair. We knew that elections would be able to change the face of the government, because I remember that the Chiboke Party, that is Mangope's party wanted, or lodged a complaint that the election should be, votes should be recounted and that was not allowed. Therefore we have to use the military means to overthrow the government.

MR DLAVANE: Now we know that, and we see it on the documents we have here in front of us that as a result of this action of the 10th February 1988, you were together with your colleagues, were ultimately arrested and you were charged and you were convicted and sentenced. Do you remember how were you sentenced, yourself being Modisane?

MR MODISANE: Yes, we were convicted and sentenced. I was sentenced eight years in prison.

MR DLAVANE: In the documents before this Committee, there is an extract of the judgement of that day and I note under, I note that when the judge made comments about yourself, Chairperson, it is in page 44, it was after your legal counsel by then had argued on your behalf. The learned judge then made comments to the effect that the, your conduct was consistent and pursuant to the plans and you had the necessary knowledge and you, in a way, associated yourself with what happened. Do you, today, appearing before the Committee seeking an amnesty, do you align yourself with the sentiments as were expressed by the learned judge? That you associated yourself with this occurrence?

MR MODISANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: That is page 46, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 46. The second last paragraph.

MR DLAVANE: And that is the reason why you are here today seeking amnesty. Is that correct?

MR MODISANE: That is correct. The other reason which I may explain is that after, after I have been released from prison there were no obstacles in terms of my experience because we were released unconditionally. But after some time, things happened which I am not able to achieve because of my criminal record of high treason.

MR DLAVANE: Mr Modisane, I know that you touched upon that aspect when giving evidence of what happened actually on that day. But say someone may come and argue before this Committee and say during that time the government, the then government, or the then president of the then government was peacefully running the political administration of the then government. So, there may not have been any reasons why an action that was taken by that time, was to have taken. What will your comment be?

MR MODISANE: At that time there was no stability in Bophuthatswana. I will give an example about what happened in Braaklaagte. As I said there was no political stability at that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what happened at what place?

MR MODISANE: Braaklaagte.

MR DLAVANE: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further evidence to lead here.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlavane. Do you have any questions to ask?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MULLIGAN: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Modisane, there were two ladies killed in the complex that morning. Did you know about that?

MR MODISANE: I heard about it.

MR MULLIGAN: Do you know who killed them?

MR MODISANE: I've no knowledge. The way in which we make a statement, at the time when they came to parliament, those who were coming to take out the ministers from the houses, people grouped themselves to go to various houses of the ministers. I think people would be able to be identified in terms of those who went to a particular house.

MR MULLIGAN: Do you have any knowledge of who went to Minister Seane's house?

MR MODISANE: I've no knowledge because at that time I was not there. I only came early in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you personally go into, yourself, into any house?

MR MODISANE: The house which I went to belonged to Mr Holele.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go into the house? Did you enter the premises?

MR MODISANE: Yes, I went into the house because I was given instructions that we should ...(indistinct) the force. That was around 8 o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mulligan?

MR MULLIGAN: No further questions, thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seabela, do you have any questions.

MR SEABELA: I have no questions, Mr Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Yes, I do. Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Modisane, did you have any firearms on yourself as well?

MR MODISANE: Yes, I had 9 mm pistol.

MS LOCKHAT: Tell me, from the time period that you had received your instructions, you took a truck containing all the weapons and then you stayed behind. Pirie informed you to stay behind and take care of those weapons. Is that correct?

MR MODISANE: Yes, that is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: How long were you, how long did you take to stay behind when the others went and took part in the operation?

MR MODISANE: I left around parliament between five and six o'clock.

MS LOCKHAT: I see you made a statement to the magistrate as well as in the court judgement, the judge mentions this on page 44, it's at paragraph 3, at paragraph 4, excuse me, regarding the information. I will just state it. He states that he received information that a certain house a woman was shot dead. He received permission to go to the house and try to remove the body, but he could not do so. Can you just explain to us who that person was, that body that you tried to collect?

MR MODISANE: I did not know the identity of that woman on that day, because at that time other members of the police went inside there, because they received information that people were shot. At the time I was at the gate. The guards did not allow the police to enter the gate. Then after a while I tried to negotiate with the guards that those people who were shot should be taken care of and then they should be taken out. Either to be taken to Bophelong Hospital and then we did not receive permission to do so and then I did not know the identity of the person who was shot.

MS LOCKHAT: What was your instructions from Pirie? What was your specific duties? Can you just elaborate on that?

CHAIRPERSON: In relation to the ...(intervention)

MS LOCKHAT: In relation to the operation.

CHAIRPERSON: To the whole operation ...

MS LOCKHAT: To the whole operation.

CHAIRPERSON: ... to get the body.

MR MODISANE: My duty was to drive so that later if there were people who were injured or died, we should be able to load them in that truck.

MS LOCKHAT: So was your duty to take care of the weapons that were in the truck as well as to load people that were injured? Did that incorporate all your duties?

MR MODISANE: The way I was trained, a soldier would be able to use his own initiative. You'd not just leave things unattended, you'd use your own initiative to do things even if you're not instructed to do them if you're involved in an operation.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Dlavane, do you have any re-examination.

MR DLAVANE: No re-examination, thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions you'd like to ask Mr Modisane?

ADV SIGODI: Just one aspect. Did you, before this operation, did you have any other meetings concerning the coup? Was it the first time that you?

MR MODISANE: Yes, we had meetings.

ADV SIGODI: So, before this time, you already knew that there was going to be a coup? It was, was it an ongoing thing that was being planned before the 10th of February?

MR MODISANE: Is not days before we had only one meeting, that was around half-past eleven on the 9th of February. That is when we knew that the operation to overthrow the government was envisaged and planned. And then he said to us we should not leave the premises, he will come back to explain to us in details about the operation. And then when he returned he came around half-past one to two. Then at that time we started with the operation.

ADV SIGODI: Now what I want to find out is the background to the coup. What happened before? If there had been any other plans before the 9th of February 1988?

MR MODISANE: No, I did not have a knowledge any meetings prior to the 9th of February.

ADV SIGODI: And this dissatisfaction which the Bophuthatswana Defence Force had with the government, did it only culminate on the 9th of February 1988?

MR MODISANE: I would say our dissatisfaction was there all the time, but we did not have the way of resolving our problems. Because before then, General Temmer was called by Bophuthatswana Security even if I'm not able to remember the date, where he was explained to about our dissatisfaction or the way we were treated.

ADV SIGODI: Okay. Thanks, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Adv Sigodi. Adv Bosman do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you, Chairperson. Mr Modisane, if you turn to page 6 of your application, do you have it before you? Paragraph 13, the question there is, are there civil proceedings pending or envisaged as a result of the acts, and your answer there is, yes. Can you see that?

MR MODISANE: Yes, I do.

ADV BOSMAN: Who has instituted civil proceedings against you?

MR MODISANE: Maybe I was not able to understand the English because I was advised by my legal counsel as to whether, what does that question wanted to say.

CHAIRPERSON: Is anybody, because of what took place on the 10th of February 1988, suing you for damages or taking you to court? Not a criminal court, but a civil court?

MR MODISANE: No one did that.

ADV BOSMAN: Is this really just a mistake, an incorrect answer? We just want the record to be right.

MR MODISANE: It is mistake I did.

ADV BOSMAN: Right, and then you, when you were asked by the Evidence Leader what your duties were, your specific duties that day and you said that they were to guard the arms in the truck and also to pick up any people who might be injured or killed in the coup. But prior to this you gave evidence that you went to Mr Holele's house which you entered and that you were instructed to do that. Who gave you those instructions?

MR MODISANE: The instructions came from Major Pirie that we should unplug the phones from various houses.

ADV BOSMAN: So did he personally instruct you to go into that house and to unplug the phone?

MR MODISANE: Within the Defence Force at that time, the way we were so many, he would not be able to speak directly to, or instruct a particular person to do something. If he instructed one person that person would relay the instructions to various members of the Defence Force of what should be done.

ADV BOSMAN: But can you remember who instructed you? The instruction came from Major Pirie, but who sort of relayed the instruction to you?

MR MODISANE: That is Manyemeng.

ADV BOSMAN: And what was his rank?

MR MODISANE: He was an instructor at the time. But he was not given the rank, but we used to call him an instructor.

ADV BOSMAN: So was he senior to you?

MR MODISANE: Yes, he was senior to me.

ADV BOSMAN: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Modisane, when did you join the Bophuthatswana Defence Force?

MR MODISANE: On the 17th of March 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: You said that you were unconditionally released from prison during 1991. You were tried and charged in the Bophuthatswana Supreme Court. Is that correct?

MR MODISANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were also imprisoned in Bophuthatswana?

MR MODISANE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know in terms of what provisions, or why it was that you were released unconditionally in 1991?

MR MODISANE: There were many things which happened that we should be released. Firstly, is hunger strikes, then secondly, is that we smuggled letters outside. I remember that we wrote letters to F W de Klerk, then we wrote letters outside, for example, I remember a particular time that we sent a letter to George Bush in America. We requested that they should put pressure on the Bophuthatswana Government that we should be released.

CHAIRPERSON: And then the order for your release came from the Bophuthatswana Government as far as you know.

MR MODISANE: Yes, it came from the Bophuthatswana Government.

CHAIRPERSON: And with your release in 1991, were the other people who were also convicted of the same offence arising out of the same incident also released? Were you all released?

MR MODISANE: We were all released though not at the same time. We were released in groups, but the one who remained behind was Sergeant Major Timothy Pirie.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Dlavane, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the panel?

MR DLAVANE: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mulligan?

MR MULLIGAN: No questions, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seabela?

MR SEABELA: There are no questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Modisane, that concludes your testimony.

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CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlavane?

MR DLAVANE: Chairperson, I will not be calling any witness on the side of Mr Modisane. We are ready to proceed with applicant number 2 if you so permit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly. Mr Mogale, do you have any objection to taking the oath?

MR MOGALE : (sworn and states)

EXAMINATION BY MR DLAVANE: Mr Mogale, you are here seeking amnesty for the same occurrence that your co-applicant here, Mr Modisane, is seeking amnesty for. You and Mr Modisane were colleagues in the former Bophuthatswana Defence Force. Is that correct?

MR MOGALE: That is correct.

MR DLAVANE: Are you able to describe for the Committee what were your duties in the Defence Force by then?

MR MOGALE: In the Defence Force I was working in the same office with Sergeant Major Timothy Pirie. I was helping to keep the register, that is the term we used in the Defence Force and even those who were going off duty, I was helping Timothy Pirie with their leave forms.

MR DLAVANE: Now we, the Committee, heard from ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was your rank?

MR MOGALE: It was private, that means I was without a rank.

MR DLAVANE: We, the Committee heard from Mr Modisane that a coup did in fact take place on the particular day of the 10th February 1988. Can you describe for the Committee what was your role in this coup? What did you do, yourself being Mr Mogale, on that particular day when this coup was taking place?

MR MOGALE: I went to Mr Ntsime's house. I don't know as well should I start from the beginning? The way it happened?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, start from the beginning.

MR MOGALE: The overthrow of the government started when the people were not satisfied. That's when I began to be a member of the Defence Force. I took an oath that I would serve the community and I would work for the community. That is why when Mr Pirie, Timothy Pirie, stated that the community is not satisfied. Then I was seeing, I was experiencing that and I heard that and I accepted what he was saying.

Mr Pirie informed us about those dissatisfaction that there was a person from exile called ...(indistinct) that person used to deal with diamonds to take them to overseas and secondly, the killing of donkeys. Then the political instability that other political parties or movements were not allowed to operate within Bophuthatswana. It is only his party which is allowed to hold gatherings.

Again, within the Defence Force there was a person who was a former member of the South African Defence Force. The way, he was so old, he was even afraid to sleep because he was afraid to die. My section was ...(indistinct) in the house of that particular person.

He explained to us how cars were taken to Germany and then before they those cars would come to Bophuthatswana they were broken. Those cars were buried behind the camp, that was the explanation from Mr Pirie.

I am not able, I am not able to explain all those reasons because there were so many. Mr Pirie explained on the night that the operation would start any time. At 9 o'clock he met with us and what he wanted at that meeting, he wanted us to whether is Mr Mangope present or was he ill overseas, or was he in Botswana.

His investigation found out that Mr Pirie was present in the ministers' complex. After he heard that statement, we ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mangope, I think it came across that Mr Pirie was in the ministers' complex. I think you mean Mr Mangope, the President. Yes, continue.

MR MOGALE: Yes, that is Mr Mangope was in the ministers' complex.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, we're not getting the translation coming through. So the last we've got was that it was established the ministers ...

MR MOGALE: After Mr Pirie established, after Mr Pirie decided that we should start with the operation, he wanted to establish as to whether Mr Mangope was present within the ministers' complex. Because we would not be able to overthrow the government in the absence of Mr Mangope because South Africa would come in. That was his fear because he wanted Mr Mangope to be present so that we will be able to execute this operation in his presence. And fortunately, Mr Pirie was always in contact with members of the Defence Force who were working in parliament. Then after some time, he established that Mr Mangope is present. If I remember well, the person who was absent at the time was his wife.

After that he came to us and we were the people who were responsible for securing the storage where arms were put and then again we were responsible for the security at government, other government installations. It was easy for us then he delegated a group to go to the storages. After the arms were taken out, we started at the military base, because he was afraid that the, there was a section which were in favour of Mangope. And then the, maybe they were not in favour of our operation to overthrow the government.

We took hostage the officer in duty on that particular night. After the person was taken hostage, he came to our camp. Then he said to us we should proceed to parliament. We went out with two TUV vans. I don't remember the truck we used but I think it was a five ton. Each and every one of us was armed with the firearms and together with the ammunitions.

We entered Geroma Building which is now the present government, the present parliamentary offices of the North West Government. Because there were others who were at the entrances there were others who joined our group. Then each and every post he instructed that one person should remain. Then we left the cars at Geroma complex then we entered the main entrance of the stadium.

When we entered the gate at the left-hand side there was a grass because on the left-hand side there were houses. Then we hid ourselves on the grass and then Mr Pirie instructed us that we should remain there, he'll be coming back. Because he was not trusting us that much. And there were president guards, that is those people who were the old guards within the Bophuthatswana government.

Then he said he was going to remove the old guards because they should not disturb our operation. He left his car somewhere. Then after some time he came with all those old guards. Then he told them in the face that we as members of the Bophuthatswana Defence Force, we are coming to overthrow the government. And they were surprised but they couldn't do anything.

After some time, he wanted to find out how many houses were there in the ministers' complex. And then he divided us into groups of six and in various groups there were six members, in other groups there were eight or seven members. It will depend on the particular house, how dangerous is that particular minister. And the house which I had to go to, the way we were divided, that house belonged to Mr Ntsime.

Before we went to that particular house, he told us there would be a whistle before entered each and every house. Then others would check us whether there are people inside. Then immediately after that whistle, we'll start knocking. Then, if a person opens the door, we should take that person to him and then unplug the telephones. Because if we can leave the phones unplugged, one person whom we would not be able to see inside, would be able to use that phone.

When we went to Mr Ntsime's house, then we heard the whistle, then we knocked. Then Mr Pirie explained from the beginning that when we arrived at the particular houses, we should not use the R4 rifles to open the doors. We should use the 9 mm pistols. In each particular group there should be two 9 mm pistols because there are two doors.

Then immediately after that whistle, we started with the operation. We were not able to open the door. Then we saw a glass door, then they broke that glass, then they entered, others entered inside. I was left outside, because I had to wait for any person who would come from outside. They found that Mr Ntsime was not present, they came out with children and together with a member of the police, I don't know as to whether who was that person. We took those persons as instructed and we brought them to Ganwe, that is the place where Mr Mangope was staying.

At Ganwe, there would be a position where the President's guards used to stay. Then all those people were brought. We put them at that particular place. Then if that person wasn't ...(indistinct) we were able to find a minister, would be taken to the stadium. Mothers and children would remain at that particular place. We waited there and there were those who were struggling with us, that is General Seleke was one of them who was brought and they were taken to the particular place. We were instructed strongly that those who belonged to the South African, the Bophuthatswanan government, Bophuthatswana Defence Force, and the police and those who were dangerous, should be well looked after.

We stayed there until we heard a gun shot at the stadium. When we heard the gun shot at the stadium, it happened that some people came out stained with blood and we were not able to identify those and then we were afraid that we would be shot, not knowing where you are shot from.

It happened until the time when the South African Defence Force came. At that time, I went through the gate. I was arrested on the 13th of February 1988. That is the day when I was arrested.

MR DLAVANE: Mr Mogale, so we, the Committee hears that there was that coup. The question is now, what was the intention, according to Timothy Pirie? What was the intention, what was to happen after the removal of the then government, or the then president and ministers? What was to happen thereafter?

MR MOGALE: Mr Pirie explained that there would be no other political party which was functional and the only one which was functional at that time was the Chiboke. Then they would try to negotiate with, or try to observe the activities of Chiboke as to whether it will be able to continue what Mangope did, that is killing the donkeys and oppressing people.

MR DLAVANE: Did you agree with this concept of a coup? Did you associate yourself? What happened there?

MR MOGALE: Yes, I associated myself with the coup, because what was happening, or the complaints which were prevailing at that time, I used to hear people complaining about Mangope and his government. And as I took an oath that I would protect and serve the community, I did not take an oath to protect and serve Mangope. That is why I saw that what he was doing was not in the interests of the community. Because the community was not satisfied.

MR DLAVANE: So, you will agree, being an applicant for amnesty here, that the learned judge in his judgement, I refer the Committee to page 43, was not mistaken when he said after your legal counsel had made an argument, when the learned judge said, "this accused, together with the others, acted in concert in order to arrest ministers and the President for the purposes of bringing about a fall in the government. He therefore had the necessary hostile intent which accompanied his overt acts." So you align yourself with what the judge said then?

MR MOGALE: That is correct.

MR DLAVANE: Chairperson, I have no further evidence to lead here. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlavane. Mr Mulligan, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MULLIGAN: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Mogale, did you only go to Minister Ntsime's house?

MR MOGALE: I only went to Mr Ntsime's house.

MR MULLIGAN: So. Do you know who went to Minister Seane's house?

MR MOGALE: I've no knowledge because Mr Seane's house was far from Mr Ntsime's house so I would not be able identify those who went to his house.

MR MULLIGAN: Didn't you hear maybe people speak about the lady who was killed at Minister Seane's house?

MR MOGALE: Yes, I heard that information, because even in court the judge spoke about that person.

MR MULLIGAN: But on the 10th of February, that morning, didn't the people speak about the lady who was killed? Did you hear about it on that day?

MR MOGALE: I've no knowledge. I did not hear on the

particular day, that is why I said the judge even stated in court that, and again, those people who were investigating this case, said that there are people who were, who have been killed.

MR MULLIGAN: So you have no knowledge of which group went to Minister Seane's house?

MR MOGALE: That is so. I've no knowledge.

MR MULLIGAN: No further questions. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mulligan. Mr Seabela, do you have any questions you'd like to ask this applicant?

MR SEABELA: No, Mr Chairperson, I don't have any questions to ask the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Yes, thank you, Chairperson. Mr Mogale, did you work very closely with Mr Pirie?

MR MOGALE: I was sort of his clerk. I was his clerk.

MS LOCKHAT: Did you fulfil a administrative function? Was that basically your duty?

MR MOGALE: I was doing purely administrative work, because

I was, I used to go to the tents. What Timothy wanted to happen outside, I used to help him. For example, filing and other duties outside.

MS LOCKHAT: Tell me, did you have any training in using weapons? Using firearms?

MR MOGALE: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: Was this part of your training? I don't understand. Were you basically administrative, did you have a function, did you have, how many times did you have this training?

CHAIRPERSON: If you could repeat your question, Ms Lockhat.

MS LOCKHAT: You said that you were a clerk and you did filing and so, basically administrative function, but I want to know from you, you said you also had training. How many times did you undergo this training? Can you explain to us, please?

MR MOGALE: I did military basic training from the 17th of March 19 up to the 10th, I don't remember whether it's November or October, that is when I passed out. Then the second training happened in 1987. I did that for three weeks.

MS LOCKHAT: Did Mr Pirie inform you of this coup before the 9th?

MR MOGALE: I started knowing about the overthrowing of the government on the 9th, that was in the morning. He used to say he wanted to talk to us, but he did not say what about.

MS LOCKHAT: You say you were assigned to Minister Ntsime's house. Is that correct?

MR MOGALE: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: When you got to Ntsime's house, explain to us exactly what you did.

MR MOGALE: I came to the front door together with those I was with. Then I tried to shoot the door jack then that door was not able to, we were not able to open. And those who were at the back, were able to open. Then others went at the back, then I remained where I was initially.

MS LOCKHAT: So you stayed outside after you shot.

MR MOGALE: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: How many shots did you fire?

MR MOGALE: If I remember well, I shot four times. After, in terms of the ...(indistinct) of the investigations, it was shown that it, that there was shots more than four times, but I am not able to tell who was responsible for additional shots.

MS LOCKHAT: Did you shoot with your, with the R4 rifle or 9 mm?

MR MOGALE: I shot with the 9 mm pistol.

MS LOCKHAT: I just want to refer to Ms P Ntsime's affidavit that she had made, it's on page 47 of the bundle. At paragraph 4, she states that jewellery and her son's watch as well as money went missing from their house during this operation. Do you know of anything regarding this?

MR MOGALE: I have no knowledge about that.

MS LOCKHAT: Would you say that on that particular day you were basically following orders? That you were following the orders of Mr Pirie?

MR MOGALE: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: So Mr Pirie was your commander, that's right?

MR MOGALE: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: Did you yourself personally agree with this operation?

MR MOGALE: Yes, that is correct, I agreed with this operation.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Lockhat. Mr Dlavane, do you have any re-examination?

MR DLAVANE: No re-examination, Chairperson. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

ADV SIGODI: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Bosman?

ADV BOSMAN: Just one question, thank you, Chairperson. Mr Mogale, on page 16 at paragraph 13, you said there was a matter pending in Bosele Supreme Court. Was that also wrong information that you gave there, that there was a civil matter pending in Bosele Supreme Court?

MR MOGALE: Yes, I do see that. This is about the overthrowing of the government. Bosele is the Supreme Court where we were convicted.

ADV BOSMAN: Fine.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when did you join the Defence Force, Mr Mogale?

MR MOGALE: (not translated)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I mean the Bophuthatswana Defence Force?

MR MOGALE: On the 17th of March 1986.

CHAIRPERSON: And were you also unconditionally released from the sentence that was imposed during 1991?

MR MOGALE: Yes, I was released unconditionally.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, I just want some clarification here. If you take a look at page 13 of your, page 13 of the bundle, page 3 of your application. It says under paragraph 10(a), "State the political objectives sought to be achieved." This is the political objective of this coup you were involved in 1988. And you say "to reincorporate Bophuthatswana into South Africa". Was that one of your objectives that you would have liked to have achieved at that time?

MR MOGALE: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So you would have been prepared to have, for Bophuthatswana to fall under South Africa in 1988?

MR MOGALE: That is correct, sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Why?

MR MOGALE: Because Mr Mangope was a dictator.

CHAIRPERSON: What were your feelings about the South African government at that time?

MR MOGALE: It was oppressive, but it was better, better than being oppressed by people of your own.

CHAIRPERSON: Any questions arising from questions put by the Panel. Mr Dlavane?

MR DLAVANE: No thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, before we proceed...

ADV BOSMAN: May I just follow up on your question, Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, certainly.

ADV BOSMAN: Did Mr Pirie tell you that the objective of this coup was to have reincorporation of Bophuthatswana into the South Africa system?

MR MOGALE: Yes, he stated that objective that if other political parties are not able to help us, for example, Triple P, because we did not know as whether it would be able to govern. If we are not, we the Tswanas are not able to govern ourselves, therefore we will take the government to the white people, that is the central government.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you. Mr Dlavane, any questions?

MR DLAVANE: Thank you, Chairperson, there are no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mulligan?

MR MULLIGAN: Thank you, Chairperson, no questions. Thank you.

MR SEABELA: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mogale, that concludes your evidence. Mr Dlavane?

MR DLAVANE: Mr Chairperson, we do not intend calling any witness for or on behalf of the second applicant. That means that we will conclude the evidence of the two applicants before this Committee this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlavane. Mr Mulligan, do you intend to call any witnesses?

MR MULLIGAN: No witnesses will be called. Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Seabela?

MR SEABELA: We don't intend calling any witnesses as well. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: No witnesses, Chairperson. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well that then concludes this somewhat speedy hearing. We finished in short time. All that remains is now submissions. I don't know if you'd want to take the lunch adjournment now, or whether you prefer to make your submissions now?

MS LOCKHAT: Mr Chairperson, I think we can take the lunch adjournment and then do the submissions after lunch, if that is in order with the Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, would that be convenient?

MR DLAVANE: I will have no objection.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We'll take the lunch adjournment now and then after lunch, we'll hear submissions from those parties who wish to make submissions.

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, just a note from the Logistics Officer that the lunch will be available only from one o'clock.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well then, we can still - I think we'll take the adjournments and then we will resume again at two o'clock or quarter to two.

MS LOCKHAT: Quarter to two, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dlavane?

MR DLAVANE IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, we are ready to make our submission.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DLAVANE: Chairperson, I must say that because this was the shortest hearing, my submission will also be as shorter.

Chairperson, it is my submission that the two applicants before this Committee are deserving candidates for amnesty. Chairperson, section 20 subsection 2 of the Act, among others requires that the act in respect of which amnesty is sought, one, be associated with a political objective. Two, that such act should also have been advised, planned, directed, commanded, ordered, or committed, by an applicant, and an applicant should be able or rather they should fall under one of the categories of people described in section 22 subsection (a) to (g).

Chairperson, it is my submission that in so far as the requirement of the association with the political objective, the two applicants will qualify in the sense that the, their participation in the said operation which resulted into a coup. It is my submission that that was a political act. The objective as outlined by the applicants being to remove the government of the day and substitute it with another government which they considered will be a government considerate to the needs and rights of the people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because section 20 subsection 2(e) of the Act provides that an act associated with a political objective means any person advised, planned, etc, who committed an act by any person in the performance of a coup d'etat to take over the government of any former state or any attempt thereto. So that would cover specifically this incident, wouldn't it?

MR DLAVANE: That is my submission, Chairperson. Chairperson, the question of whether there was a full disclosure as required by section 20 subsection 1(c), the evidence led by the applicants was not challenged, that is the facts as to what happened at the particular day. It is therefore my submission that the facts as outlined by the applicants be regarded as a full disclosure of actually what happened. Their role they themselves being ...(indistinct) they played in that particular day.

ADV BOSMAN: And one could perhaps add there that it was consistent with the findings of the trial court?

MR DLAVANE: That is my submission, Chairperson. Which was not denied also by the applicants when they agreed that the finding of the court as to their association, participation was admitted by the applicants.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and I think that another factor is that the applicants were, according to their evidence, at all times acting in conformity to orders given by a superior officer.

MR DLAVANE: That is my submission, Chairperson. The officer in command being Timothy Pirie who was above rank of the applicants. Chairperson, I submit therefore that the applicants be granted amnesty as requested in their applications. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Dlavane. Mr Mulligan, do you have submissions?

MR MULLIGAN IN ARGUMENT: Yes, just very briefly, Chairperson. Like I said in the beginning, I'm representing the Seane family. It's unfortunate this afternoon that they are none the wiser at this stage. They still don't know who entered his house. They still don't know who was responsible for the death of

his aunt. And when I say that, I accept that there was full disclosure on the modus operandi of that morning by the second applicant. I accept that.

CHAIRPERSON: We see from the trial record that there was something like a 140 something accused persons, and we have two applicants, so it's credible to accept the evidence that they didn't know what was happening all the time at all the different places.

MR MULLIGAN: I fully accept that, Mr Chair, and that the modus operandi would be to hit all the houses simultaneously speaks for itself. But to us, it's just sad that there are still here and we still don't know who entered the house. We still don't know who was in the group that came to our house. And in a sense, we really don't know why we were here then, if that, if we couldn't take that any further, and that is unfortunate. I'm not pointing fingers or blaming anybody, it's just unfortunate.

CHAIRPERSON: We certainly understand the feelings of the family. One would have hoped that there would have been some information that would have satisfied their interests here. I'm sure that the notices served, they've done that rather to err on giving people notices rather than not to give people notices.

MR MULLIGAN: No, we accept that, Mr Chair, and like I say, we have no quarrel with the two applicants or with their applications, may it please the Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Seabela?

MR SEABELA IN ARGUMENT: Thank you, Mr Chair. The instructions I have are that the Ntsime family do not oppose the application by the applicants and further they've asked me to put it on record that, in fact, in the spirit of promoting national unity and reconciliation, they forgive the applicants for whatever happened on the day in question. Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Seabela. I must say from the point of view of the Committee, the submission made by yourself is most appreciated. We know that forgiveness is not one of the criteria but it's always very, very welcome when it does come through in a hearing of this nature. And if you can convey the Committee's feeling in this regard to the family. Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, it is common cause that the two applicants were employees of the State and that according to their submissions they acted within the scope of express authority and express instructions given by their commander, Mr Pirie. They also associated themselves with the coup and with their commander's intentions, and they committed the act in execution of this order. And that section 2 subsection 20, subsection 2, subsection (e) would be applicable in this instance, Chairperson, and we leave it in the hands of the Committee. Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any response, Mr Dlavane.

MR DLAVANE: No response, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you very much. We'll hand down a decision in this matter in the near future, hopefully with the time spared we'll be able to do it today or tomorrow, but it will take some time to come through because there's a procedure that has to be followed getting it published in the Government Gazette, etc. But, I'll be doing a decision, certainly this week in the matter. Thank you. Well, that then brings this roll to an end, does it, Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: We've just had a very short session here, but I would nevertheless like to thank all the people concerned and the authority for making this very nice venue available. The sound technicians, the interpreters for working, the security, the police for providing security, the caterers for the very nice lunch, our secretaries, the logistics officer, everybody, Ms Lockhat who set up the hearing. Thank you very much indeed and we're sorry that we were here for such a short while because I must say we certainly do enjoy coming to this part of the world. It's very nice. Thank you.

HEARING ADJOURNS