--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen, before we start today's proceedings, I would like to tell you that one of the Members of the Committee has to attend a conference in another capacity this afternoon, so we will be adjourning at three thirty. I'm telling you this now if you want to start making other arrangements for yourselves. I see I should have said, lady and gentlemen. Right, shall we continue.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, with your leave I call Mr de Kock.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr de Kock, I know that your full names of Eugene Alexander de Kock. Do you confirm this?

EUGENE ALEXANDER DE KOCK: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH: Mr de Kock, you are an applicant in terms of this incident, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Your application appears from page 1 to page 9 of the bundle, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: At the time of this incident you were the Commander of Vlakplaas.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And you have also heard the evidence of the other applicants who have testified thus far, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And you have also studied their written documents of application?

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: On previous occasions you have also had the opportunity to study Exhibit A, the general background, which upon previous occasions has also been served as an exhibit.

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And you have also heard to what extent it has been amended for the purposes of this application.

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And insofar as you have knowledge of it, do you confirm the correctness of the allegations embodied therein?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: As with previous cases, you have also prepared a supplementary affidavit regarding Vlakplaas, which has been submitted before the Committee.

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And you once again confirm the correctness of the allegations embodied therein.

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: With regard to this incident, Mr de Kock, you were approached to offer assistance in connection with the elimination of so-called activists, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And what is your recollection regarding the incident? How were you approached, by whom were you approached?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, there was a meeting at Vlakplaas. My recollection was that Brig Schoon and Gen Gerrit Erasmus were there, as well as Oosthuizen and Coetzee.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. And that would be the first meeting to which has been referred as a planning session?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: You've heard the evidence given by Gen Erasmus and Brig Schoon, that as far as they recall they were not present during that occasion.

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: But that it is possible that they may have been at Vlakplaas at other times and that it was at those times that they may have discussed the matter with you.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, it is possible.

MR HATTINGH: Is it possible that they are correct with that?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, there is a probability. There is also the probability of confusion.

MR HATTINGH: Whatever the case may be, at some or other stage you were approached by these gentlemen, Messrs Oosthuizen and Coetzee and possibly on another occasion also Gen Erasmus and Brig Schoon.

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And what was the purpose of their approach to you?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, that a group of persons be selected, or that there was a group of persons who intended to journey to a neighbouring State ...(intervention)

MR HATTINGH: Is that Swaziland?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Swaziland. They intended to journey there for the purposes of training. The training was of a military nature for the promotion of the objectives of the African National Congress, once again, in the Republic. The promotion of those objectives was of a military nature.

MR HATTINGH: Very well, Mr de Kock. In your application on page 3 of the bundle, you state very briefly:

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.

MR HATTINGH: I'm sorry. Has it been off all along, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: No, it's just gone off now.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you. I will read it once again. On page 3 you state:

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And that is all that you state in your application regarding the political objective which existed for this operation. Is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: But you have heard the evidence which was given by Messrs Oosthuizen, Coetzee and so forth, which indicates that they possessed extensive information in this regard.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And that they discussed it in general with you.

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Upon more than one occasion?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Do you confirm that this is what took place?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Can you recall everything that they told you in regard to this?

MR DE KOCK: No, but it would have been thorough by nature because the reason and the motivation of my members would have been important and I would have had to inform them as well.

MR HATTINGH: At that time when the motivation for the operation was extended to you, did you pass any judgement regarding the necessity of such an operation?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, that is correct. Because it was of such a nature that it would lead to terrorism, it was of a military nature and after training it would have been of application within the Republic. And then, it was also our prescribed task not only to deal with terrorists and terrorism, to trace them, but also to combat them.

MR HATTINGH: So you were of the conviction that an action against them was necessary.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, there was no doubt in my mind.

MR HATTINGH: Was any explanation given to you as to why it was necessary to eliminate them, as far as you can recall?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And this information which these gentlemen gave you, did you regard it as correct and true?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: The request to you to assist was actually an order, not so?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And you heard that they said that they had obtained the information and that they undertaken the planning and the decision making and then requested Vlakplaas to serve as the operational wing of this operation.

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And is that how you regarded the nature of this order?

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Did you then plan the action?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, I did.

MR HATTINGH: And did you instruct any of your soldiers at Vlakplaas to assist with this operation?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And did you ultimately depart to Swaziland to carry out the operation there?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: Did you know previously how many persons would be involved in this operation on the side of the activists?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, initially something was said of 16 or 17 activists, that would be a kombi full of activists, but it was later with the second meeting at Vlakplaas that it was said that these persons would be given a vehicle and that they would five activists. The number of the vehicle and a description thereof was given to me and I then furnished my members with this in turn, and after the shooting I found that there had actually been three persons within the vehicle.

MR HATTINGH: Mr de Kock, in the light of the Appeal Court's decision, the events in Swaziland as such are not of vital relevance for this investigation, but just to complete the picture, did you then set up an ambush for these persons in Swaziland?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct. However, I would like to add that with the exception of the Court's decision, I have no problem of providing the details of what took place in Swaziland here today for the purposes of the family and for the purposes of the TRC record and future reference.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. Who in Swaziland was to meet the people there in order to lead them into the ambush?

MR DE KOCK: Two of the former members of the ANC, who were more commonly known as askaris, would then wait for this group of activists at a post office in Manzini. I'm speaking under correction, but I think it was there in Manzini. This information regarding the rendezvous point was provided to me by Mr Coetzee and up to that point we had the information indicating that the activists would depart, cross the border and then establish contact with these two askaris at the post office. And from that point onwards the arrangements were my responsibility, in terms of leading them to an ambush point and their ultimate elimination.

MR HATTINGH: Now these askaris, were they tasked specifically to lead these persons into the ambush?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, the reason why the askaris were used is because they used camp language and camp language is the general language that was used in ANC camps. This was also for the sake of authenticity, so that everything would appear authentic.

MR HATTINGH: Can you recall who these two askaris were, Mr de Kock?

MR DE KOCK: One was Geoff Bosigo, the other I am uncertain of and I don't wish to add his name to this, but I think it was Magopa.

MR HATTINGH: Chris Magopa?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct.

MR HATTINGH: Very well. Did you make any arrangements with regard to persons who had to undertake observation in the vicinity?

MR DE KOCK: Yes. We had moved into a foreign State, they also had police, a Security Police and a Defence Force and their own Intelligence Division. I had persons positioned on the road who would notify us of increased action, for example if there was any police of Defence Force actions. The reason for that is that the area in which we were to launch the ambush was a plantation area, as the most of Swaziland is, and surrounding those plantations there is a multitude of fire towers.

MR HATTINGH: Do you mean look-out towers?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct. And these towers would be manned on a 24-hourly basis by persons who among others, would have binoculars. So the slightest sign of smoke would be reported in order to prevent an entire plantation from burning down. So in that respect I had to have an additional ring of people around me who would give us timeous warning if there was any problem of being discovered.

MR HATTINGH: Was the place for the ambush selected prior to the incident?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, it was a place that I had selected quite a long time ago as a rendezvous point in the event of use being trapped and having to move out and having to hide in the bushes, if I have to put it that way.

MR HATTINGH: And those who had to undertake the shooting so to speak, did they have to be dropped off before the time?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, we couldn't park any vehicles there for fear of being discovered by someone in a lookout tower or a patrol. We could move into the plantation, but we could not take the vehicle with us.

MR HATTINGH: So the vehicle dropped you off and departed again?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And you then took up position there and waited for the two askaris who were travelling in a separate vehicle?

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR HATTINGH: And they would then be followed by the activists in a second vehicle?

MR DE KOCK: That is correct, and then some of my men who were equipped with radios would observe the rendezvous and report to me in time what was happening. We couldn't give the askaris any radios because it may have drawn attention and we did not want to take that risk.

MR HATTINGH: Was anything reported via radio that these persons were late, that they had not arrived?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, because according to the time calculation and the departure of these activists, this operation would have taken place between six and seven that evening, in order to give us enough time again to go through Oshoek by 10 o'clock, in other words to get out of the country completely.

MR HATTINGH: Was that the closing time for the border post?

MR DE KOCK: That is correct. And this shooting took place between nine and ten that night and we didn't have the opportunity to cross the border back into South Africa in time.

MR HATTINGH: Do you know with whom, if anyone, these activists had liaison on Swaziland?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Did these two vehicles arrive eventually?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And I understand that the place which was selected was a so-called cul-de-sac.

MR DE KOCK: That is correct. The area was of such a nature that except for the elements of surprise on our side, it would have been impossible for them to escape.

MR HATTINGH: And did you then appear when these vehicles arrived at the ambush point and did you open fire?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And did you take any steps to ensure that these people had been killed?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson. I also had to count the number of people to make sure that we had everyone. I expected five, but I found only three in the vehicle. I was furnished with an AKM47, which is an AK that doesn't have a butt, it has a silencer. I removed my glove from my left hand and on the back left where the windows had been shot out, I found a person who was gasping for breath. I pressed my pinkie against the person's eyelids and felt a fluttering and I shot him twice through the head. I then moved to the person who was seated in front on the left and did the same. I found no signs of life of any nature there.

MR HATTINGH: When you say that you did the same, do you mean that you also touched his eyelids?

MR DE KOCK: Yes.

MR HATTINGH: And that is why you did not shoot him?

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

MR DE KOCK: Then I moved to the driver's side, opened the door and did the same and also found no signs of life there. We couldn't use any torches or any forms of light under no circumstances, because that would also have created some sense of warning for the person in the lookout tower.

MR HATTINGH: What did you do after that?

MR DE KOCK: There was an envelope with documentation which was sealed, it was given to me in a bag. I'm not certain if I left it under a person or whether I placed it in a case which was in the vehicle, but one of those two took place. The nature of the documentation is unknown to me, except that according to my understanding it was misinformation which was later then on a strategic basis, used to place the activists in a position of disfavour.

MR HATTINGH: Did you depart after that?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, we departed. We repacked the weapons into the vehicle with its false compartments. We tried to cross the border at Oshoek illegally by pressing the wire fence down and driving over, but there had been very heavy rains a few days before and a section of that area had changed since the last time I had been there and we struggled with the soil and the earth and the grass. We didn't have 4X4 vehicles to cover this terrain and we had to return because we couldn't get out and were making a lot of noise by trying to get out and it would have drawn unnecessary attention. We returned to our rented rooms and spent the night there.

MR HATTINGH: And then the following morning you went back to Vlakplaas through the border?

MR DE KOCK: Yes. I think that we were already up by six and as soon as the border post opened we went through.

MR HATTINGH: Did you later receive feedback regarding the incident?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, a day or two later a Capt Viktor of the Vehicle Branch contacted me, he was making enquiries and it appeared to me from our discussion that he had already made other enquiries, that he wanted to know whether I knew about an incident in Swaziland during which a vehicle had been involved. I denied it and then asked him for more particulars, and what he told me then was that it had been a police vehicle and I told him that I would also make enquiries, that we should perhaps keep the detail to ourselves first.

Immediately after that telephone call I contacted Brig Schoon and informed him about the problem. I believe that he informed Gen Gerrit Erasmus about it, because shortly after that telephone call, Schoon and Erasmus arrived there along with Mr Coetzee.

MR HATTINGH: And was Mr Oosthuizen there?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, as far as I know.

MR HATTINGH: And was any plan formulated to deal with the problem?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, the agreement was that the vehicle would be duplicated in all aspects, including the colour of the seats, the radio and so forth. In other words, another vehicle of the same colour was obtained and it was furnished with the same seating and seat covers, the same year of issue.

MR HATTINGH: The number of that vehicle was changed in order to make it the same as that which was used in Swaziland.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: On the you succeeded in saying that the vehicle which was traced back to you was not the same as the one which - the vehicle which was traced back to you, you still had in your possession, it was not the same as the one in the SAP?

MR DE KOCK: "Dis reg, Voorsitter, die voertuig is nie na Vlakplaas terug gespoor nie, maar wat die SAP ..." ...(tussenbeide)

MR HATTINGH: Ja, na die SAP toe. Goed.

MR DE KOCK: Wahl du Toit was approached, he also came to Vlakplaas, but he didn't have anything to do with the discussion and he did not know what happened in Swaziland.

MR HATTINGH: As you have said he was the Head of the Technical Department and his department was called in to help with the duplication of the vehicle.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct. I received all the information about the vehicle from Capt Coetzee and I conveyed it to Wahl du Toit. I did not inform him that the vehicle was involved in a shooting incident or people had been killed. And I think approximately 24 hours later they brought a similar-looking vehicle to Vlakplaas and asked me if I was satisfied, and according to the description of the vehicle I said it looked good and informed Capt Coetzee to fetch the vehicle.

MR HATTINGH: You did not receive any reward for this operation?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: You did not know the activists beforehand, so you did not have any feelings of vengeance towards them?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: One moment please. Mr de Kock, the firearms that you used, the AKs with the silencers, who supplied these?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, the AKMs were of amounts of firearms which we brought back from Ovamboland and which were used for covert operations. The silencers were made for us by a company and they were paid for from the Police account and the ammunition was loaded by ourselves, to make it subsonic.

MR HATTINGH: We have heard evidence on other occasions to the effect that you were officially issued with passports and identity documents and so forth, did you use these documents when you moved through the border post?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, as well as my members.

MR HATTINGH: You then apply for amnesty for conspiracy to commit murder, defeating the ends of justice.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Unlawful possession of firearms and ammunition.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And for any offence with regard to crossing the border between Swaziland and the Republic of South Africa by using false documentation.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: And then you also request amnesty for any possible delicts which might flow from these actions.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Thank you, Mr Chairman, we have no further questions.

MR DE KOCK: I would like to add, Chairperson, in my capacity as the Commander of Vlakplaas, I take responsibility for my own actions and for every member under my command, for any of their actions in that regard and I shall take responsibility for it. Thank you, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Chairperson.

Were part of the instructions which were given to you that there was information that the people would not only receive training but that they would smuggle firearms back into the country?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, the information that was given to us was comprehensive and because of the amount of incidents that had taken place I cannot recall everything.

MR BOOYENS: And in your instructions to your members, did you in essence also summarise the information which was passed on to you by the Intelligence Division in regard to the reason and motivation was as to why these people had to be ambushed and killed?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: So your members who received instructions from you would have been under the impression that they were there, and let's use the term that was used in the past, that they had to act against ANC terrorists?

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: If you would please page to page 5, Mr de Kock. Is it correct, Mr Bellingan told me that the role he played in this regard was that he drove the kombi with the false panels and he dropped off the members at the point where the ambush was set up and he moved out again with the kombi?

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You did not know exactly how many people to expect, you expected a group of people in a motor vehicle, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson. I would like to qualify that. The image that we had was that we would expect five people and afterwards it seemed as if there were only three.

MR BOOYENS: I have no further questions, thank you, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Chairperson, Cornelius.

Mr de Kock, just a singular aspect. Mr Flores says that he reconnoitred the area where the ambush would take place with you.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, he was not the only one, but I took the persons one by one because as a group there you would have drawn attention.

MR CORNELIUS: And he says the reason why he went along was because Swaziland was his operational area.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Nel on record.

Mr de Kock, as you know I act for Mr Hanton. I would just like to clear up one thing. According to Mr Hanton he was tasked to, before the operation at Vlakplaas and after the shooting, to load the minibus, to load the firearms into the false panels and after the shooting incident he hid the weapons again into the false panels of the kombi, is that correct according to you recollection?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson.

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr de Kock. Thank you,

Chairperson.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NEL

MR ROSSOUW: Rossouw, Mr Chairman, I have no questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Botha on record.

Mr de Kock, I act for Mr Snyders. To clear up some confusion and for purposes of the record, Mr Snyders in his application refers that he reported to you that one of the persons were still alive in the vehicle, is it possible that he informed you as such and that is the reason why you went to the vehicle to determine if anyone was still alive?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, he would have reported it to me if that was his observation, but I would have in any case gone to the vehicle to see because I also had to report to my seniors. But I think he did inform me that there was a person who was still alive.

MR BOTHA: And you say the method by which you determined that the person was still living was by feeling the eye. For him it seemed as if the finger was pressed into the eye, but according to his own version it also could have been an observation fault. You concede that a person would not be able to see if it was just touched or pressed? ...(transcriber's interpretation)

MR DE KOCK: Well yes, Chairperson, the eye is a sensitive organ, it does not help if one sticks your thumb into the eye. And you will only observe any signs of life if you use your small finger and touch lightly to the eye.

MR BOTHA: Mr de Kock, you are not - it seems to me you are not quite clear as to who the askaris were who were in the first vehicle. According to Mr Snyders it was Capt Moss, but he concedes that he might be mistaken but that Moss was indeed involved in the operation.

MR DE KOCK: He was involved in the operation, Chairperson, but on the periphery. I used him, if I may put it as follows, to do some observation along the road close to the police station which was close to Manzini. I think it was close to the Parliament. That was my closest problem and I used him in that regard, I could not use a white person because he would attract attention.

MR BOTHA: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Visser on record. A few questions, with your leave.

Mr de Kock, I appear for Hendrik du Plessis, he was one of the members of Vlakplaas at that stage and he was present at the ambush that evening.

MR DE KOCK: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And with regard to the background and the motivation for this action I would like to put it to you it would seem to me as if the information from the top to the bottom was basically conveyed in a telescope form, everything was not told to everybody every time. Is that as a general statement, correct?

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, and I will qualify it. There are certain aspects which I would not tell them about, I would not tell them that Capt Willie Coetzee has a source. The reason for that is if some of them are caught they could not give out that information, so I concentrated it on the objective and the motivation.

MR VISSER: And he will tell the Committee, with regard to his recollection, he cannot recall today whether it was pointedly told to him why the persons had to be killed, but the inference that he drew was that they were terrorists who wanted to infiltrate the RSA. Maybe we should just pause there. Can you comment on that?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, the people went out for training, the received the training and when they return it is to sow terror. I cannot recall all the words that were used, but that would be the effect of the message.

MR VISSER: What he does say is that he can recall that you told him that the action was based on information which came from Mr Willem Coetzee.

MR DE KOCK: That would be correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And he also says furthermore that the information came from a source. That is as much as he knew. I just mention it to you for the sake of completion, that that is what he will testify and if you want to comment on it you are free to do so.

MR DE KOCK: He was a senior person at that stage, Chairperson, I think he was a Captain. If I was involved in an accident, then the following senior person will take over, so in that sense I would give him a little bit more detail than I would give Hanton, who was a Sergeant at that stage.

MR VISSER: And then a final aspect. I don't know whether it was mentioned, but can you recall that you realised that one of the people, actually du Plessis' weapon did not want to fire?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You cannot recall it, very well. Thank you very much. Thank you, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN HEERDEN: Van Heerden, Mr Chairman.

Mr de Kock, this Capt Moss, I understand he is deceased now, is that correct?

MR DE KOCK: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VAN HEERDEN: And I see in Mr Snyders' application he elaborates on the role of Capt Moss. Could you more specifically tell us what he was doing at the scene?

MR DE KOCK: As I've said, I used him to monitor the area between Manzini and Mbabane, but with a specific instruction to monitor the police station there close to Matsapa because if the forestry workers noticed something, then he would be able to warn us beforehand, so that we could move out or move deeper into the plantation. That is my recollection thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: So he wasn't at the scene?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, he was not at the scene. May I just mention that Capt Moss and Chris Magopa, if you see them from behind they would look like twins, they have the same build and the same bone structure. Not that Mr Snyders is wrong, but the possibility for confusion is there, because I am also the one who moved to them just immediately after the shooting and told them to move out and they made it in time.

MR VAN HEERDEN: I see Mr Snyders mentioned that "Capt Moss gave a sign and then we started shooting".

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, the moment when the vehicle started turning, the vehicle with the activists did not even start turning yet. I gave the sign that we should jump up and we moved in in a V-formation to the activists' vehicle, so that the doors would be covered in all aspects, but not shoot at each other.

MR VAN HEERDEN: The other applicant, Leon Flores, did you ask him to find a place for the ambush?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, no, the place was pointed to me by Capt van Dyk beforehand, which I wanted to set up as a rendezvous point for my people at one point, for operations, but he had to reconfirm it to me because Capt van Dyk brought me in from the border post side and this time I had to find it from Manzini's side and I needed him for that, and I had to get everything right for confirmation.

MR VAN HEERDEN: So he assisted you in that sense?

MR DE KOCK: I don't have a clear recollection, but if he says so I shall accept it as such. Because I had to take the people one by one there so that they would not attract attention by going there as a group.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Mr du Plessis mentions something that Mr Coetzee was no longer concerned about the source and that he could also be eliminated, what is your comment?

MR DE KOCK: No, it was only the activists in the vehicle, Chairperson. If there was a source and he said eliminate the source along with them, then it would not have been a problem for me, but there was no source that was shot.

MR VISSER: Could my learned friend give us the reference to where du Plessis says that, Chairperson, he must have the reference in front of him.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Page 170.

CHAIRPERSON: 170.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Excuse me, Mr Chairman, it's page 170, the fifth paragraph from the top.

You have no answered that such a instruction would not have made any difference to your action.

MR DE KOCK: If the instruction was that the source had to be shot along with these activists, then one would have done so. It was not necessary for him to say it was a source, he could have just said there was another activist. So we had a target and I hit the target. There was no preference with regard to race.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Thank you. Applicant Johan Hendrik Tait says that activists were lured to the place of ambush by Capt Moss.

MR DE KOCK: No, it was Geoff because Geoff Bosigo was the driver.

MR VAN HEERDEN: And when the vehicle arrived at the scene, Capt Moss jumped out and ran away. Do you have a recollection of that?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, there was such an incident but at Piet Retief, that we had already completed in Durban, where Moss jumped out as the sign and if he walks they were unarmed, if he ran they were armed, but in this case that was not the case.

MR VAN HEERDEN: And from the statement of Mr Tait it would seem that there was only one vehicle involved in this ambush.

MR DE KOCK: Is one vehicle that was attacked?

MR VAN HEERDEN: Yes, one vehicle that was attacked and only one person who lured the vehicle into the ambush.

MR DE KOCK: Well it was one vehicle who led them with two of the people and then there was the one vehicle with the activists, there was no third vehicle involved.

MR VAN HEERDEN: If we look at page 85 of Mr Tait's statement, it would seem as if there was only one vehicle, which was driven Capt Moss it would seem to me and at the scene of the ambush he ran away.

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, I think there might be some confusion because logic would tell me that Mr Moss was alone in the vehicle, he jumps out, he runs away and he leaves the vehicle there, what should I do with the vehicle? The activists are shot and here I sit with the vehicle without a driver. I think he may be confusing it with another incident.

MR VAN HEERDEN: And I see Mr Tait also says that there were four occupants in the vehicle who were killed.

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson. We expected five, but when I had a look at the vehicle, because I had to report back, I saw there were three. Maybe it sticks in his memory that there were four, but ...(intervention)

MR VAN HEERDEN: What did you do with the vehicle after the incident?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, I understand that some people say that we pushed it down the embankment. "Dit is heeltemal moontlik vir addisionele verberging, nie dat die voertuig kon meer as 10 of 15 meter gaan nie. Dis net om ons extra tyd te gee, dit is al".

MR VAN HEERDEN: Thank you, I have no further questions. Thank you, Chairperson.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr de Kock, how long does it take from Pretoria to Swaziland, or maybe you can give me the distance, the estimated distance.

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, up to Oshoek, if one drives fast, and then I speak of a speed of approximately 140 kilometres, you can do it in three hours, depending on traffic and from Oshoek for example to Manzini, it could take longer because ...(end of side A of tape) ... the time. I cannot give you a specific time.

MR SIBANYONI: In kilometres, can you give an estimation?

MR DE KOCK: Of how far it is?

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, from Pretoria to let's say Manzini. A very rough estimation.

MR DE KOCK: I shall give it to you now. I would say approximately 350 to 400 kilometres, you might add a few kilometres somewhere here and there.

MR SIBANYONI: So at what time did you personally leave Pretoria and when did you arrive there?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, we were on the farm early that morning and I would say that we arrived at Vlakplaas at approximately 8 o'clock and we started loading the firearms into the kombi. We did not have a problem with a time factor, we could drive slowly because the shooting incident would take place approximately between eight and nine that evening, so we had enough time.

MR SIBANYONI: Do you know whether the activists did have passports to get into Swaziland, or maybe they entered Swaziland at a place other than a post?

MR DE KOCK: Chairperson, no, I don't know, they may have had passports or they may have had temporary travelling documents which are valid for three or four days. I did not deal with those things. I don't know whether they passed the border illegally, I don't know.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what time was the shooting supposed to take place?

MR DE KOCK: Between eight and nine in the evening, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you say between six and seven earlier in your evidence-in-chief?

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, I think I said between seven and eight and it took place between nine and ten that evening.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say you arrived at Vlakplaas at eight?

MR DE KOCK: That was in the morning, Chairperson. That is the recollection that I have of it, it was in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Because I think we were told that some of the people went to see you off that morning.

MR DE KOCK: Yes, Chairperson, there were persons there, among others, Capt Coetzee. As I have stated I cannot give you a fixed time, but it was early in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: And that one of them then left Pretoria at 7 o'clock and then returned there and collected his car.

MR DE KOCK: It is possible, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know what these people did when they arrived in Swaziland.

MR DE KOCK: No, Chairperson, we didn't follow them from the border post and then watch what they were doing.

CHAIRPERSON: You only know from the time they met these people outside the post office?

MR DE KOCK: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Sorry, re-examination?

MR HATTINGH: No re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR DE KOCK: Thank you, Chairperson.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR BOOYENS: Booyens on record, Mr Chairperson, I call Mr Tait. His application can be found on page 82.

MR SIBANYONI: Your full names, Mr Tait.

JOHAN HENDRIK TAIT: (sworn states)

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, you may be seated. Sworn in.

EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: It is an Afrikaans Tait, Mr Chairperson, but he understands what you have said.

Mr Tait, you have your amnesty application before you, is that correct? And you provide the background, your personal background on pages 81, 82 and 83, is that correct?

MR TAIT: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now on page 84 you give your recollection of this incident in Swaziland, is that correct?

MR TAIT: Correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: At the stage when you went to see my attorney of instruction, Mr van der Merwe, did you have any point of reference with regard to what any of the other applicants stated about this incident in Swaziland, or anything of that nature, or did you have to rely purely on your own recollection?

MR TAIT: I had to rely purely upon my own recollection,

Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Very well. Now where you give a description of the incident, on page 84, there are just a few aspects that I would like to deal with. In the first place you were not certain of the date, you said that it was during 1988, is that correct?

MR TAIT: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And we have heard that it was February 1989.

MR TAIT: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You have also mentioned four activists, who according to your knowledge were killed, who were in transit to receive military training abroad and you have stated that there were four. This is on page 84.

MR TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And you have heard Mr de Kock state that only three persons were killed. Was it your recollection at the stage when you made your statement that you thought that there were four persons inside the vehicle?

MR TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You heard Mr de Kock say that you did not make use of any lights, so it was very dark.

MR TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Therefore, this figure of four that you may have heard somewhere or surmised or thought, is this the figure that emerged in }our mind when you made your affidavit?

MR TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And your description of the incident is that Capt Moss actually drove the vehicle into the ambush and jumped out and ran away. That is the description that you gave to Mr van der Merwe at that stage.

MR TAIT: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: Now you have heard Mr de Kock say that he thinks that you may be confused with another incident which took place near Piet Retief during which this scene actually took place. Is it possible that you may confused?

MR TAIT: Yes, it is highly possible that I may be confused.

MR BOOYENS: Now let us deal with the preceding events, before you departed from the Republic. Did Mr de Kock tell you what you were going to do?

MR TAIT: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And you heard his explanation that it was basically conveyed to you that these were persons who were involved in terrorist activities in the RSA, who were going to continue their activities in Swaziland.

MR TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: At that stage did you have any reason to doubt Mr de Kock's information?

MR TAIT: No.

MR BOOYENS: Did you accept it as correct?

MR TAIT: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: And did you accept that this was the sort of work which was in either event was carried out by Vlakplaas?

MR TAIT: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Your primary function was to combat terrorism.

MR TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: So Mr Tait, with regard to you, to shoot these terrorists dead and to plan such a shooting was part of the war that you were involved in?

MR TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: I see that you have also mentioned on page 84 that you recall that Willie Nortje was present and you have already heard that his legal representative has stated that he was not present during the operation. Is it possible that you may have confused his presence in this operation with his presence in another?

MR TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Tait, you were discharged from the Police Force, due to post-traumatic stress disorder.

MR TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And part of having post-traumatic stress disorder is memory problems.

MR TAIT: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: You have heard Mr de Kock's description of what took place after you crossed the border into Swaziland.

MR TAIT: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: Does this correlate more-or-less with your personal recollection of what took place on the Swaziland side of the border?

MR TAIT: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: You were a member of the group of persons who were physically involved in the shooting on the Swaziland side of the border.

MR TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And I don't believe that it is necessary to dwell extensively on this because Mr de Kock has already stated it. According to you, your recollection of what took place in Swaziland is more-or-less the same as that of Mr de Kock.

MR TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You also crossed the South African border with a false passport?

MR TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: You were aware that there would be weapons which would be smuggled over illegally from the country into Swaziland and then illegally returned to the country from Swaziland. These would be your weapons that you were going to use.

MR TAIT: That is correct.

MR BOOYENS: And you received an instruction, but you were also part of the planning to eliminate these persons in Swaziland.

MR TAIT: Correct.

MR BOOYENS: And you request amnesty for conspiracy to murder, for transgressions of the Weapons and Ammunitions Act, for the illegal possession and illegal import and export of weapons, as well as the crossing of a South African border with counterfeit documents, as well as for any delictual accountability that you may be held responsible for emanating from this case?

MR TAIT: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt at this stage and ask you gentlemen if you could combine with one another to give us detailed list of the various offences for which you're asking for amnesty and the Sections of the Act and what have you.

MR BOOYENS: Certainly, Chairperson, I will ask my colleagues who have got access to a library, whether they could oblige us in this regard, people like Mr Hattingh or Mr Visser or somebody like that.

CHAIRPERSON: It doesn't have to be done immediately.

MR BOOYENS: Yes, on. Thank you, Chairperson.

Possibly just one further aspect, Mr Tait. At the shooting, did you approach the vehicle after the shooting and observe the persons inside the vehicle physically?

MR TAIT: No.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further.

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Possibly just one further aspect, Mr Chairperson.

Do you also confirm, subject to the amendments that you have indicated, do you confirm the rest of your amnesty application?

MR TAIT: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you.

MR HATTINGH: Hattingh on record, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.

MR CORNELIUS: Cornelius on record, Mr Chairman, I have no questions.

MR NEL: Mr Chairman, Nel, I have no questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Rossouw on record, Mr Chairman.

Mr Tait, I do not wish to ask you a question, I just want to put a statement to you. Thank you for your concession with regard to Mr Nortje. I just want to put it for the sake of completion that Mr Nortje denies any involvement in this operation.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR BOTHA: Botha, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.

MR VISSER: Visser, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, no questions.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: I've got no questions.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Chairperson. May Mr Tait be excused.

CHAIRPERSON: On the usual conditions.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson, I call Mr Baker. You will find Mr Baker's evidence on page 281, no, 288, Mr Chairperson. The witness will testify in English this time, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Your full names please.

ADRIAN DAVID BAKER: (sworn states)

MR SIBANYONI: Sworn in.

EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Sorry, Mr Chairman, Mr Baker has a hearing problem, so that's why he's using it ... Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'm indebted to you.

Mr Baker, your application, your main application appears from page 288 to 303, as far as the background is concerned, is that right?

MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And like you've done in the past, do you confirm your general background as far as this is concerned?

MR BAKER: I do, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: As far as this incident is concerned, we start at page 304, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now apparently a draft, pages 304 and 305 were was the uncorrected draft that was put in here, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And the corrections that are indicated here, for example the 4 being scratched our and your reference to a few words being scratched out and things like that, that was actually done after you corrected this document, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Now Mr Baker, you heard the evidence of Col de Kock as to the instructions that he gave you people about these activists or people that received military training, that you were to ambush in Swaziland, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: On the information Mr de Kock gave you, that you had before you took part in this operation, were you satisfied that these people were preparing for acts of terror inside the Republic of South Africa?

MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And were you in your own mind satisfied that the operation was necessary and that it was part of the tasks of the Vlakplaas' Section C10 to fight terrorism and that this was part of that operation?

MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: You also crossed the border with a false travel document, with a false passport, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And your task insofar as what happened in Swaziland, just for the sake of completeness, was you and Mr Botha were actually in, to your recollection was it Manzini or Mbabane, where these activists were supposed to meet the askaris?

MR BAKER: My recollection of it was Mbabane, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: But in any case it was a town in Swaziland?

MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And was your task to inform Mr de Kock by radio when the contact was established and the people were en route?

MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Without going into too much detail, is it correct that at one stage you thought the people were late and contacted Mr de Kock, as he indicated, and told him that the people were late and then subsequently contacted him and told him that they were on their way?

MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: You yourself were never present at scene of the shooting, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: And so your total involvement was to inform the people in the ambush that they were on their way and after that you also went back and crossed the South African border?

MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Are you also in a similar position as the other members of Vlakplaas, that you had no independent way of establishing the correctness of the information given to you, you were in the intelligence gathering arm, you were in the executive arm, is that correct?

MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman, we were the operational arm.

MR BOOYENS: Ja. And do you confirm the balance of your application?

MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I ask a question now which I perhaps should have asked you people earlier, but I think it - this was the sort of operation that Vlakplaas was frequently called on to perform, wasn't it?

MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Other sections of the Police Force who had made the enquiries, carried out the investigation, will then call in Vlakplaas to take the action?

MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've got no further questions.

MR HATTINGH: Hattingh, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Cornelius.

Mr Baker, you can recall that Mr Snor Vermeulen was not present in this operation.

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, on recollection no, he was not present.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes. Thank you, Mr Chair.

MR NEL: Mr Chairman, Nel, I have no questions for Mr Baker.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Rossouw, Mr Chairman, thank you.

Mr Baker, on page 306 of your affidavit you also mention that W/O Nortje was present, is it possible that you might be mistaken as to his presence at this operation?

MR BAKER: That is possible, Mr Chairman, I do not recall exactly who was there.

MR ROSSOUW: I just put it to you that I'm in possession of an affidavit by Mr Nortje, in which he denies any involvement in this operation. Would you concede that that would be correct?

MR BAKER: I concede that, Mr Chairman.

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Again can I interrupt at this stage. My recollection is that Mr Nortje was concerned in various other operations, it would very easy to get confused as to precisely which one you remember him at. Is that correct?

MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR BOTHA: Botha, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Visser, Mr Chairman, one aspect with your leave.

Mr Baker, at page 304 of the bundle you set out in your application saying that you were informed by your commander, Col de Kock, that he had received the instructions from the executive command structure and then you scratched out "Head Security Branch" and you left (General van der Merwe and Brigadier Schoon). Now I'm going to ask you to think back how clear your memory is because Gen van der Merwe states that, says that he wasn't involved in this at all, in this incident at all.

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, if I may reply to that. The executive command structure was made up of these persons. I didn't mean that they'd specifically in person given instructions as we were never personally involved when instructions were given. I was just setting out the command structure of Section C at that stage.

MR VISSER: Oh yes. That puts a completely different perspective on it. What you were given to understand is, head office approved it?

MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: You were not given a name?

MR BAKER: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, no questions.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Just one or two questions. I would like to it further from where the Chairperson left it, Mr Baker. Vlakplaas was called upon to intervene if the police, other police have done investigations and the like, would I be correct to say Vlakplaas' duty was only to do a covert operation, not to help in investigations?

MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Would it be correct to say, or as it is usually said, that Vlakplaas was a hit-squad, it was a hit-squad in other words?

MR BAKER: It was an operational arm, that's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: You were not involved in the Chesterville incident?

MR BAKER: No, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: In that incident we were told that there was a problem, police were killed, Vlakplaas was called upon, not usually to come and hit, but to assist to solve the problem of the police who were killed. What is your comment about that?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, we were often used to infiltrate where normal policemen couldn't, due to the fact that our members, as I think Col de Kock put it earlier, spoke the camp language, could speak the language of the activists that had been trained externally. The normal policemen didn't exactly know the, I should say the language used in the camps and by the activists themselves. So they were often used as well to infiltrate where the normal police could not infiltrate.

MR SIBANYONI: So there were instances where you would infiltrate, gather information and pass it to the normal police?

MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: That was usually done, wasn't it, by askaris?

MR BAKER: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: It wasn't members of the South African Police Force at Vlakplaas, it was the askaris who were stationed there who did the infiltration and the gathering of information?

MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And it was in fact fairly important that they should be kept away from the ordinary police, so their identities would not become known?

MR BAKER: That is correct, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: I don't have a question, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone). Sorry, I have some perhaps unfair questions, considering it took place 10 years ago, but I wonder if you can help. Can you remember the time when you saw these people making contact outside the post office in Mbabane?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, if I can recall it was already evening, it wasn't still daytime, it was dark.

CHAIRPERSON: And you'd been waiting there for quite a long time by then, had you?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman, yes, we actually wondered if the operation was going to come off.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you here when Mr de Kock gave evidence?

MR BAKER: Yes, Mr Chairman, this morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you agree with his estimates of time and distance from Pretoria to Swaziland?

MR BAKER: Mr Chairman yes, I'd say that the estimate was more-or-less correct, the time it would have taken to have driven there and so on.

CHAIRPERSON: So if these people had left Pretoria early in the morning they would have been in Swaziland, in Mbabane for some time before you saw them making contact?

MR BAKER: That is possible, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So they could have contacted other people?

MR BAKER: That is quite possible, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination?

MR BOOYENS: No thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: May he be excused on the normal conditions?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Although we've been doing very well this morning, I don't think we'll finish your next applicant in three minutes. We'll take the adjournment at this stage.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, Visser on record. I have two further witnesses, the one is a witness who is in prison and who has only arrived here this morning. I haven't consulted with him yet. I rather believe that we might not finish this afternoon with all the evidence ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: That doesn't matter, I merely want to ...

MR VISSER: ... I must call the witness, Mr Chairman, and I'll fall in.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR VISSER: I don't believe we will, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, while I'm busy talking, may I beg leave to refer back to a question which Commissioner Sandi asked of Mr Schoon yesterday, regarding other matters in which he gave instructions. Now Mr Chairman, we've carefully gone through the amnesty applications and there are four. The first one is incident three, that was one which you have knowledge of, that was the attempted murder on Marius Schoon in Botswana. That's his incident number 3. I don't know whether you have his full amnesty application before you, Chairperson. Well perhaps - we've got one here which you can use in the meantime if you wished. But incident 3 in his application, relates to the attempted murder on Marius Schoon.

Then incident 12, Chairperson, as amended, is the present incident which you are hearing now. And then there's an incident 17, which related to two persons eliminated in Swaziland - I'm sorry, Botswana, Take Five and Sadie P-u-l-e. Now those are the only three incidents, Mr Chairman, in which Schoon gave instructions for people to be killed. Marius Schoon wasn't killed, but in the other two incidents, in 12 and 17, people were killed.

Then his number 14, case number 14, Mr Chairman, relates to an abduction of one, M-s-i-b-i from Swaziland. And those are the only four in which he himself gave an instruction without an instruction coming from higher up. Msibi wasn't killed or anything, Mr Chairman, he was just abducted and later returned.

CHAIRPERSON: I think my colleague merely wanted to ascertain, as did I, that there - one doesn't always have to look to the very top.

MR VISSER: No, indeed not Chairperson, in fact there are quite a number of incidents where lower ranking officers took the decision on their own. Could Brig Schoon perhaps now be excused, Chairperson, on the condition that he must keep himself available? Thank you, Mr Chairman.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR BOOYENS: Mr Chairman, I call as my next witness, Riaan Bellingan, he an Afrikaans Bellingan.

MR SIBANYONI: Full names, Mr Bellingan.

WILLHELM RIAAN BELLINGAN: (sworn states)

MR SIBANYONI: Sworn in.

EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS: Mr Bellingan, you have before you your amnesty application which starts on page 255, is that correct?

MR BELLINGAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Do you confirm the correctness of the section from pages 255 to 271?

MR BELLINGAN: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And on page 272 you deal with the death of these persons.

MR BELLINGAN: That's correct.

MR BOOYENS: You have heard the evidence of Col de Kock with regard to the instructions which he conveyed to you and the motivation which he gave for the operation, do you agree with it?

MR BELLINGAN: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Were you, because of what Mr de Kock had said, under the impression that these persons were busy with terrorist activities in South Africa and you associated yourself with the instruction?

MR BELLINGAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Were you further satisfied from Col de Kock's conveyance to you, that the instruction came from an intelligence network and you refer to Trevits?

MR BELLINGAN: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Nobody spoke of Trevits yet, tell us what it is.

MR BELLINGAN: Trevits was a body at head office where all the intelligence services threw intelligence together and evaluated it, and I believed that the intelligence would have gone through there as well, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: If you speak of all the intelligence services, that is services like a Military Section as well as Civil Section of National Intelligence?

MR BELLINGAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Bellingan, after you received the instruction, were you the driver of a kombi with false panels that transported AK47 with silencers to get them into Swaziland?

MR BELLINGAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt you for a moment. Was this a Vlakplaas vehicle?

MR BELLINGAN: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And this vehicle was specifically modified beforehand for this purpose?

MR BELLINGAN: That is correct, Chairperson, it had false panels and one would not say it is a police vehicle. If one would pull us off the road it was not visible that this was a police vehicle.

MR BOOYENS: And one had to look carefully to see that there were false panels in which things were smuggled in?

MR BELLINGAN: Yes, Chairperson, it was very well hidden panels.

MR BOOYENS: And was were accompanied by Mr Larry Hanton, is that correct?

MR BELLINGAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And the two of you crossed the border with false identities?

MR BELLINGAN: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And on the other side of the Swaziland border, you have heard Col de Kock's evidence as to what took place there.

MR BELLINGAN: That's correct, Chairperson, that's 100% correct.

MR BOOYENS: Was your function to drive the people in to the point where the ambush was set up?

MR BELLINGAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And you dropped them off and they took their weapons, you then moved out from that point?

MR BELLINGAN: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Had they travelled into Swaziland with their separate vehicles?

MR BELLINGAN: That's correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we heard from Mr de Kock they didn't want vehicles to be seen in the plantation, so you took them there?

MR BELLINGAN: I drove them from the place where we stayed, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And then you moved out with the vehicle back onto the main road and you returned to pick up the people afterwards?

MR BELLINGAN: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Mr Bellingan, the Chairperson has asked one of your colleagues, Mr Baker, this type of operation was it typical of the type of offensive operations which took place?

MR BELLINGAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: So it was not a unique operation in that sense?

MR BELLINGAN: That's correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: You have also in your application mentioned the name of Mr Willie Nortje.

MR BELLINGAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And you have already heard that his legal representative said he was not there, is it possible that you may be mistaken in that sense?

MR BELLINGAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: And do you confirm the balance of your application?

MR BELLINGAN: Yes, I do, Chairperson.

MR BOOYENS: Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions.

MR HATTINGH: Hattingh, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.

MR CORNELIUS: Cornelius, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Nel, I have no questions.

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, but may I take this opportunity, Mr Chairman, to hand to you the affidavit by Mr Nortje that I've referred to. I beg leave to hand it up to the Committee. I've already provided my colleagues with copies thereof.

CHAIRPERSON: Will that be Exhibit J? As Mr Visser says, we jump the I.

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR BOTHA: Botha, Mr Chairman, I have no questions.

MR VISSER: Visser, Mr Chairman, I have no questions thank you.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, no questions.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions.

MR SIBANYONI: I've got no question, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Did Mr de Kock accompany you to Swaziland?

MR BELLINGAN: No, Chairperson, Mr Hanton was with me in the minibus.

CHAIRPERSON: So your application is wrong in that regard. Page 272, paragraph 8(a)(iv).

MR BELLINGAN: I agree, Chairperson. Mr de Kock was in another vehicle.

MR BELLINGAN: Chairperson, it was not a hotel, it was some holiday resort, there were triangular houses, the name was Smoky Valley Inn and that's where we lived. It was separate triangular houses in some valley.

CHAIRPERSON: And when did you arrive there?

MR BELLINGAN: Chairperson, that minibus was quite slow, so I would have arrived there sometime during the day. Because when one drives into Swaziland the roads are not so good, so one cannot drive that fast, so I must have arrived there during the day.

CHAIRPERSON: And you intended to leave that night?

MR BELLINGAN: Yes, we would have left after the operation, but it didn't happen as such and we only left the following morning.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination?

MR BOOYENS: No re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)

MR BOOYENS: Yes, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, that concludes the evidence of the applicants I intend calling.

MR CORNELIUS: Cornelius, Mr Chairman, I call D L Snyman.

MR SIBANYONI: Your full names, Mr Snyman.

DANIEL LIONEL SNYMAN: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Commissioner Sibanyoni.

Mr Snyman, you completed an application and handed it in, which serves before this Committee, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: At all times you were in the service of the South African Police, as it is defined in Section 20(2)(b) and 20(2)(f) of Act 34 of '95, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You were attached to Section C1 at Vlakplaas, of which the general background has already been submitted to the Committee, the so-called Annexure C, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You confirm in general the contents of your amnesty application as it serves before this Committee, as well as the introduction of your application from page 38 to page 62, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: It is common cause that you received instructions from your commander, Col de Kock, to attend an operation in Swaziland, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: What was your rank at that stage?

MR SNYMAN: I was a Warrant Officer.

MR CORNELIUS: You acted as a so-called footsoldier and executed the instructions from Col de Kock on a need-to-know basis, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: What were you informed was the purpose of the operation in Swaziland?

MR SNYMAN: We were informed by Col de Kock that ANC terrorist would bring weapons from Swaziland to South Africa.

MR CORNELIUS: And the instruction was, it's also common cause, to go and kill these people, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: To shorten your evidence, you were part of the men at the ambush in the cul-de-sac in the bush in Swaziland?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you also fire on the vehicle?

MR SNYMAN: Yes, I also fired on the vehicle.

MR CORNELIUS: And three people were killed, according to your application.

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: An aspect which bothers me, on page 63 you say you heard afterwards, although you were not involved in the search, that weapons and explosives were found in the vehicle. Is this allegation of yours correct?

MR SNYMAN: I thought it was so, I may be mistaken.

MR CORNELIUS: You did not place any documentation or anything else in the vehicle?

MR SNYMAN: No, I did not.

MR CORNELIUS: At other instances where you were involved, it happened that weapons and ammunition were planted, but according to - in this instance, according to your knowledge did it happen?

MR SNYMAN: I may have just assumed it, I may have confused it with other incidents.

MR CORNELIUS: Except for your salary did you receive any form of reward, as described in Section 20(3) of the Act?

MR SNYMAN: No, I did not.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you understand that the instruction came from higher seniority?

MR SNYMAN: Definitely, because other divisions were also involved.

MR CORNELIUS: And you refer to Security?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You did not have any feelings of vengeance or malice towards these people?

MR SNYMAN: No, Chairperson, I only heard that they're ANC terrorists and that they were enemies of the Republic.

MR CORNELIUS: So you apply for amnesty for your participation in the murder of these three people in Swaziland and for any other criminal offence or delict which might flow from this, is that correct?

MR SNYMAN: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Hattingh, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.

MR BOOYENS: Booyens, no questions, Mr Chairman.

MR NEL: Nel, Mr Chairman, no questions.

MR ROSSOUW: Rossouw, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.

MR BOTHA: Botha, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.

MR VISSER: Visser has no questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, no questions.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions.

MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: No questions, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Excused on the usual basis.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR SIBANYONI: English or Afrikaans?

MR FLORES: English.

MR SIBANYONI: Your full names for the record.

LEON WILLIAM JOHN FLORES: (sworn states)

MR SIBANYONI: Sworn in, Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Commissioner Sibanyoni.

Mr Flores, you've prepared an application in terms of Section 18 of Act 34 of 1995, presented it to the TRC Committee in Cape Town and provided your full co-operation with the TRC Committee's Investigating Team, is that correct?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: At all times during this incident you were ...(indistinct) as envisaged in Section 20(2)(b) and Section 20(2)(f) of Act 34 of 1995, is that correct?

MR FLORES: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You served in the Section called C1, of Vlakplaas, which workings of Vlakplaas are fully amplified in the previous documents before this Committee.

MR FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

MR CORNELIUS: You served under the command of Eugene de Kock, your commanding officer, and at all times carried out your instructions, strictly no a need-to-know basis, is that correct?

MR FLORES: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: In your amnesty application from folio 225 to folio 228, you confirm the contents of your amnesty application.

MR FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: On folio 225 you, under the heading "Operation Cobra - Swaziland", you say that Capt Deon Nieuwoudt of the Security Branch in P.E. requested C1 for assistance of ANC activists who were leaving Port Elizabeth for Swaziland, where they would receive a course in arms training. Is this averment of yours correct?

MR FLORES: No, Mr Chairperson, that is a mistake. I don't know it came that I put that section there, but that should totally be deleted from that application.

MR CORNELIUS: What was your rank at that time, when this operation took place?

MR FLORES: I was a Sergeant, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: I see. Now I trust that you weren't fully informed from the top command structure of what the exact actions were that were to take place in Swaziland and exactly what the political motivation from the senior Security Branch officers were?

MR FLORES: That would be correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You worked strictly on a need-to-know basis, did you realise you were acting against ANC terrorists at that time?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: So this opening paragraph on page 225 seems like an averment, or your conclusion that you drew from the facts within your knowledge.

MR FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: I see. And it has transpired that Capt Deon Nieuwoudt was not involved in this matter at all.

MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Fine. But you knew you were acting against ANC activists?

MR FLORES: That's correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You received instructions to go to Swaziland and you in fact also did go to Swaziland, is that correct?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You heard the testimony and the cross-examination by Eugene de Kock, did you in fact receive instructions and in fact scout out the area where the ambush was to take place?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson, I did accompany Col de Kock.

MR CORNELIUS: And I understand that Swaziland was your operational area.

MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: So you knew it well.

MR FLORES: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Was Adj Snor Vermeulen involved in this matter at all?

MR FLORES: Well I can recall not at all, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Yes. You were one of the members who in fact laid in the ambush waiting with a firearm, is this correct?

MR FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You were equipped also with a AK47 with a silencer?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: I see. You participated and you in fact participated in the killing and murder of the three victims, is that correct?

MR FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: Fine. You've heard the other evidence of the kombi with fitted panels and you agree with the evidence already led before this Committee.

MR FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: I see. Did you receive any other reward except your salary, as envisaged in Section 20(3)?

MR FLORES: Nothing whatsoever, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Did you have any ill will or spite against the victims?

MR FLORES: Not at all, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: You felt that you were carrying out your duty in the interests of the serving government at that time, is that correct?

MR FLORES: That is correct.

MR CORNELIUS: You apply for amnesty before this Committee, for the murder and your participation of the murder of the three victims, as well as any delict which might flow from these actions, is that correct?

MR FLORES: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you, Mr Chair.

MR HATTINGH: Hattingh, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.

MR BOOYENS: No questions, thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR NEL: Nel, Mr Chairperson, no questions.

MR ROSSOUW: No questions, Mr Chairman.

MR BOTHA: Botha, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.

MR VISSER: Visser, Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you confirm that two vehicles came to the scene of the ambush?

MR FLORES: Yes, I do, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And I think you've said you arrived at the scene about two hours before, you dropped off about two hours before.

MR FLORES: I think that's correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And that you waited for an hour and a half, you were dropped off and then you had to go to the scene of the ambush and you waited there for an hour and a half.

MR FLORES: If not longer, that's correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: There was a delay?

MR FLORES: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know if any arms or explosives were found in the vehicle?

MR FLORES: What I can recall, nothing at all, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: You did search it?

MR FLORES: Personally myself, no.

CHAIRPERSON: But somebody in your group did.

MR FLORES: Yes, that's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Re-examination?

MR CORNELIUS: No re-examination, thank you Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, excused on the usual ...

MR CORNELIUS: Mr Chair, I represent a further application, which does not form part of the documents before you at the moment, D J Britz. We have subsequently found his application, I've tabled it to the TRC Evidence Leader, Mr Steenkamp, whose got full knowledge of this and I'm at present preparing an affidavit with the documentation to be presented to the Committee. Unfortunately he won't testify due to his medical condition. I've received medical reports as well and I will table that as soon as it's out of the oven. Thank you, Mr Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you discussed this with your colleagues?

MR CORNELIUS: I've discussed it with my colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: None of them wish to question him?

MR CORNELIUS: I don't think there is any objection, most of his evidence is common cause. He was a driver on the lookout vehicle. But he is present, I've got him present if there's any problem with that.

CHAIRPERSON: You all agree.

MR HATTINGH: I do not have any questions for him, thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR BOOYENS: I don't have any questions, Mr Chairman.

MR NEL: Nel, I won't have any questions for Mr Britz either.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Chairman, I haven't had insight into his application, but insofar as there is a possibility, in the light of the other applicants, that he might implicate Mr Nortje, the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: We will take it that we get the same answer.

MR ROSSOUW: ... then I don't have any questions for him.

MR BOTHA: I've got no questions, Mr Chairman.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I don't know, it doesn't seem as if I might have questions.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR CORNELIUS: The documents will be tabled to my colleagues anyway, thank you Mr Chair.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR NEL: Mr Chairperson, I would like to call my client, I think if I could just move seats, Mr Hanton, and his application is found on page 90 of the bundle, and I've placed before you, Mr Chairperson, also an additional affidavit signed by Mr Hanton here this morning. I believe this will be Exhibit K, if I may. Thank you, Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Your full names please.

LARRY JOHN HANTON:

EXAMINATION BY MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

Mr Hanton, you are an applicant for amnesty, and your application is filed and found on page 90 of the bundle and you have read that once again, do you confirm the correctness thereof?

MR HANTON: I do, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: I've also drafted an affidavit on your behalf which is marked Exhibit K, if I may refer you to that as we go along. On the first page in the first few paragraphs, up to paragraph 5, you give a brief outline of your background in the South African Police Services, is that correct?

MR HANTON: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: You also state that you had the opportunity to peruse the applications of the other applicants in this matter and you also refreshed your memory again.

MR HANTON: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: Briefly, on page ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Can I interrupt at this stage and merely put something on record. Paragraph 5, you talk about the Security Branch Camperdown, was that the farm at Camperdown?

MR NEL: That is correct. From Vlakplaas, Mr Hanton was transferred to the Durban so-called Vlakplaas, which was under Col Taylor at Camperdown, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR NEL: In paragraph 8, Mr Hanton, you set out that your amnesty application, when you drew that up your memory was very vague and already before this or at a previous hearing, documentation has been handed in to prove that you suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder and this might be a reason for your lack of memory.

MR HANTON: That is correct.

MR NEL: Do you confirm that?

MR HANTON: I confirm that, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: But you however, respectfully submit that all along you've made an attempt to make a full disclosure.

MR HANTON: Correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: Now if we may move on to paragraph 10. Immediately you say there that originally you were under the impression that four people were killed, but having heard the evidence and having read the other applications, you realised that only three members, or three people were in fact killed in Swaziland.

MR HANTON: That's correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: And you also made a mistake with the date in your application when you said it might have been in 1987 or '88, but we know now it's common cause that the incident actually happened on the 12th of February '89.

MR HANTON: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: Then from paragraph 11 onwards you refer to submissions by Gen van der Merwe and also you have gone through a judgment in the matter of Cronje. You also refer in paragraph 12 to what serves before this Committee as Exhibit A and also you have read the documentation and the evidence which was led by Col de Kock during the initial Vlakplaas, may I call it the Cluster 1, regarding Vlakplaas and how it operated.

MR HANTON: Correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: And do you also ask that that be incorporated as part of your amnesty application?

MR HANTON: Correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: Paragraph 14, Mr Hanton, you deal with the incident in question, where you received instructions from Col de Kock regarding what you had to do, and you say there that you believed that the authority to take part in the operation, emanated from higher authority.

MR HANTON: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: And that fits in with the general manner in which instructions were conveyed to Vlakplaas.

MR HANTON: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: Paragraph 15, you mention a couple of names of people who might have been on Vlakplaas when the instructions were given, but you cannot remember all the members present.

MR HANTON: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: Then you deal further on with the incident and you believe that, you accept that the main mission was to eliminate these people, that you were instructed to do so.

MR HANTON: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: You were also tasked with loading the kombi or the minibus with the weaponry, is that correct?

MR HANTON: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: And a previous applicant, Bellingan then left with the minibus for Swaziland?

MR HANTON: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: The paragraph there onwards on page 8, deals with the incident and you confirm the correctness of Col de Kock's evidence as to how the operation took place and, do you confirm that?

MR HANTON: I do, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: After the operation was successfully finalised, the following morning you and Bellingan left with the very same vehicle back to South Africa?

MR HANTON: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: To shorten the proceedings, Mr Hanton, in paragraph 28 you respectfully submit that you've complied with all the provisions of the Amnesty Act, and you set out fully in paragraph 28(a) to (h), why you say so. You confirm pages 10 and 11 as well?

MR HANTON: I confirm that, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: Mr Hanton, is it then so that you apply for amnesty for the conspiracy to murder these three people and any other offence or delict that might flow from this particular incident?

MR HANTON: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.

MR HATTINGH: Hattingh, Mr Chairman, I have no questions thank you.

MR BOOYENS: Booyens, no questions, Mr Chairman.

MR CORNELIUS: Cornelius, Mr Chairman, no questions thank you.

MR ROSSOUW: Rossouw, Mr Chairman, no questions.

MR BOTHA: Botha, Mr Chairman, no questions.

MR VISSER: Visser, Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, no questions.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Just one question.

Did you, Mr Hanton, also book in at the Smoky Valley Resort?

MR HANTON: I did, Mr Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: If you were supposed to come back to South Africa the same day, why was it necessary to book in at the resort?

MR HANTON: Mr Chairperson, I can't remember the exact circumstances at that time.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: No questions, Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember trying to cross the border that night?

MR HANTON: I do, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And you couldn't do it because of the weather conditions, the mud on ...

MR HANTON: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR NEL: No re-examination, Mr Chairman.

MR NEL: May my client be excused under the same conditions, Sir?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR HANTON: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I then call the next applicant, Mr Willemse.

MR SIBANYONI: Are you English or Afrikaans speaking?

MR WILLEMSE: Afrikaans.

MR SIBANYONI: Your full names please.

DOUW GERBRAND WILLEMSE: (sworn states)

MR SIBANYONI: Sworn in.

EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman. You will find the application of Mr Willemse on page 10 in the bundle and further.

Mr Willemse, do you have a copy of your amnesty application before you?

MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: And a summary of the background and the broad political objective with regard to the events in which you were involved, can be found from 10 to 16. Do you confirm the content thereof?

MR WILLEMSE: Yes, it is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: On page 16, if I may just refer you to the top of page 16. You state there that you were a Sergeant and a subordinate at Vlakplaas during 1989, with this operation, that was the rank that you occupied?

MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: And you confirm that you fell under the operational command of Col E A de Kock and that operations, both internal and external, in which you participated, you participated in upon your own initiative but according to a legal order which you received.

MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: Mr Willemse, you gave evidence before this Committee during the first session of this Committee, at the beginning of September, and upon that occasion you submitted a letter from a psychiatrist which confirms that you are suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, is that correct?

MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: And you request that the Committee once again study your evidence against the background of that letter?

MR WILLEMSE: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Then in broad terms you have summarised the incidents in which you have been involved, this appears on page 17 and goes up to page 30, do you confirm the content thereof?

MR WILLEMSE: Yes.

MR ROSSOUW: And with regard to this specific incident, you have summarised the facts from page 32 onwards. May I refer you to that?

MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: Very well. You state on page 33, with the description of the nature and particulars regarding this incident, that in formation came to the disposal of Vlakplaas that at certain group of trained ANC terrorists would use a certain road in Swaziland to enter the RSA. Do you recall how you obtained this information?

MR WILLEMSE: I was informed at a later stage that it came from Messrs Coetzee and the others.

MR ROSSOUW: Yes, but at that stage you were not privy to the information-gathering process?

MR WILLEMSE: No.

MR ROSSOUW: You simply were informed about it subsequently?

MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: And the order which was given to you, as Mr Visser has put it, was that you would have been informed by Col de Kock that these were indeed terrorists who were seeking to enter the country?

MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: And was there any planning session which was held at Vlakplaas regarding the fate of these persons?

MR WILLEMSE: The plan was to lure these persons into an ambush and to eliminate them.

MR ROSSOUW: Very well. You describe in paragraph 2 that Geoff Bosigo would meet them under a false flag. Could you explain this to the Committee, what would this false flag be?

MR WILLEMSE: The other person or the persons that he was supposed to meet, would be under the impression that he, Bosigo, was an active member of the ANC and that they actually worked for the police, but this group was not aware of it. So that is what the false flag was.

MR ROSSOUW: You entered Swaziland with this group, did you also make use of a false passport?

MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: And were you there at the point where the ambush was set up?

MR WILLEMSE: Yes.

MR ROSSOUW: You heard the evidence regarding what took place there, the evidence given by Mr de Kock, do you concur with that evidence, do you confirm it?

MR WILLEMSE: Yes, I confirm it.

MR ROSSOUW: You were also issued with an AK47, which was fitted with a silencer, is that correct?

MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: Very well. Then at the bottom of page 33, you refer to the other persons who were involved there and you mention the name of Mr Snor Vermeulen. Are you certain about that or could you possibly be mistaken regarding his presence?

MR WILLEMSE: I may have been mistaken regarding his presence, Mr Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: Very well. Mr Willemse, initially in your statement you mentioned that four persons were shot dead during this incident and during consultation with myself you stated that you were not certain whether there were three or four persons. What is your recollection today?

MR WILLEMSE: That there were indeed three persons.

MR ROSSOUW: Is that in terms of the evidence that you have heard here?

MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: And after the shooting, at the scene, did you approach the vehicle, did you yourself look inside the vehicle to see the number of passengers?

MR WILLEMSE: No, Chairperson.

MR ROSSOUW: After the incident you returned with the team to the Republic, can you recall whether this took place on the same day or on the following day?

MR WILLEMSE: I cannot recall that part of the events, but according to the evidence which has been given here, it would appear that we returned the following morning.

MR ROSSOUW: Then on page 34 and 35, with regard to the political objective of these persons, do you confirm the content of your amnesty application in that regard?

MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: Now Mr Willemse, you drew no personal advantage or financial benefit from your participation in this operation?

MR WILLEMSE: No.

MR ROSSOUW: You did also not act out of any feelings of malice towards these persons who were eliminated.

MR WILLEMSE: No.

MR ROSSOUW: You did not know them?

MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: At that stage, did you have any reason to doubt the information which was conveyed to you or to doubt any order or instruction which was given to you by Mr de Kock?

MR WILLEMSE: No.

MR ROSSOUW: You were in no position to question any orders.

MR WILLEMSE: That is correct.

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, nothing further.

MR HATTINGH: Hattingh, Chairperson, no questions.

MR BOOYENS: Booyens, no questions, Mr Chairman.

MR CORNELIUS: Cornelius, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions thank you.

MR NEL: Nel, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.

MR BOTHA: Botha, Mr Chairman, no questions.

MR VISSER: Visser, Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, no questions.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Nor have I.

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, may the applicant then be excused under the same conditions?

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Oh sorry, I have got one question I think. In your original application at page 22 - that is your application isn't it, you refer to those being, as I understand it, or is this another incident in Swaziland? It's the same incident, is it?

MR WILLEMSE: It's the same one.

CHAIRPERSON: Well there you say that the members concerned were yourself, de Kock, Lionel Snyman, Snor Vermeulen and Willie Nortje. The others you can't remember.

MR WILLEMSE: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson. I must just add that at that stage I was undergoing treatment, medical treatment and I made an error. After I'd heard the evidence given by the others I realised that I may have made a mistake or that I did make a mistake with regard to Willie Nortje and Snor Vermeulen.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR WILLEMSE: Thank you, Chairperson.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------MR SIBANYONI: Your full names please?

PETRUS CASPARUS SNYDERS: (sworn states)

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, you may be seated. Sworn in.

MR BOTHA: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. May I refer the Committee to page 315 of the bundle and further and may I request the Committee's permission to hand in the supplementary affidavit as was supplied to the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly.

EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Snyders, I refer you to the bundle, there is a copy of your amnesty application from page 315 and further, stretching up to page 324. Do you have knowledge of the content thereof?

MR SNYDERS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOTHA: And do you confirm the content thereof as true and correct according to your knowledge, specifically in consideration of your supplementary affidavit?

MR SNYDERS: That is correct.

MR BOTHA: I also refer you to your supplementary affidavit of which you also have a copy before you, do you also confirm this document as true and correct?

MR SNYDERS: Yes, I confirm it.

MR BOTHA: From your amnesty application it would appear that you are one of the persons who participated in the ambush with regard to the incident which took place in Swaziland.

MR SNYDERS: That is correct.

MR BOTHA: Could you sketch very briefly for us what your share in this matter was.

MR SNYDERS: I cannot recall the precise time, but that evening I was dropped off with my other colleagues at the place where the ambush would take place. After some course of time the vehicle which was to bring the ANC cadres in arrived, followed by the vehicle containing the ANC members. We were in our positions, from where we were to open fire and we did so. Three persons were killed. And after we had determined that these persons had been killed, we took their vehicle and pushed it over a cliff. We were then picked up by W/O Bellingan and taken back to our accommodation in Swaziland.

MR BOTHA: In your initial application it would appear that there are a number of aspects which appear to be incomplete or at least contradictory with the versions of other applicants. Could you provide a brief explanation of that for the record.

MR SNYDERS: As a result of the lengthy course of time there may be certain facts that I may have forgotten because of my involvement in various incidents. I may have placed certain persons at the scene who were not actually involved in that matter. In the meantime I've also been treated for post-traumatic stress disorder, which has contributed to the weakening of my memory.

MR BOTHA: You request that amnesty be granted to you for your conspiracy to murder, possession of arms and ammunition, possession and/or use of false documents or any other offence which may emanate from this matter, is that correct?

MR SNYDERS: Yes, that is correct.

MR BOTHA: Thank you, Chairperson, nothing further.

MR HATTINGH: Hattingh on record, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.

MR BOOYENS: Booyens, Mr Chairman, no questions thank you.

MR CORNELIUS: Cornelius, Mr Chairman, no questions thank you.

MR ROSSOUW: Rossouw, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.

MR NEL: Nel, Mr Chairperson, no questions.

MR VISSER: Visser, Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN HEERDEN: Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, I've got one question.

Mr Snyders, I have spotted this for the first time, the tape recording that you have referred to at the bottom of page 321 of your application, could you elaborate on that?

MR SNYDERS: Yes, Chairperson. With regard to some of the incidents, tape recordings were made by Mr de Kock, which we played back to Mr Oosthuizen once we arrived back in Pretoria, to indicate that the operation had been successfully completed.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Do you know how these tape recordings were made or by whom they were made?

MR SNYDERS: They were usually recorded by Mr de Kock himself, with a mini-cassette recorder that he had with him.

MR VAN HEERDEN: What did he record?

MR SNYDERS: From before the commencement of the attack to the completion of the attack everything would be recorded on tape.

MR VAN HEERDEN: What was the normal duration of such a recording?

MR SNYDERS: This specific incident in which I was involved, would have not have taken longer than a number of seconds, 15 to 20 seconds.

MR VAN HEERDEN: You state the Col Oosthuizen, or that you were under the impression that Col Oosthuizen wasn't very impressed with this tape recording. Why do you say that?

MR SNYDERS: That is simply my own observation. I believe that he may have thought that it could have been used as evidence later and he didn't wish for any evidence to be left behind, which would point at the incident.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Do you know why Col de Kock specifically asked you to accompany?

MR SNYDERS: He and I had been together at Police Headquarters in Pretoria before we went to Vlakplaas, and he must have felt comfortable in asking me to go with him to Col Oosthuizen's office.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Was it only you and Col de Kock who went to Police Headquarters after the incident?

MR SNYDERS: There may have been other members as well, that is where we submitted reports and claims, but I do recall that he asked me to go with him.

MR VAN HEERDEN: You say that tape recordings were made of a number of different incidents, was the physical tape ever identified after any operation and was it ever filed?

MR SNYDERS: I was not involved in any form of filing of such items, it wasn't my department of work.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Do you know where these tapes were stored?

MR SNYDERS: No.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Thank you, I then have nothing further. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: I've got no questions, Mr Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: No questions, thank you, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Snyders, in your original application you seem to remember some event in some detail.

MR SNYDERS: Yes, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure that you - this isn't another incident that you were talking of here?

MR SNYDERS: No, Chairperson, some of the events of the incident were very clear in my memory.

CHAIRPERSON: You talk about tickets, air tickets being provided, so that they could fly to Jan Smuts airport.

MR SNYDERS: I believe that I may have been confused with another incident during which flight tickets were used.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you involved in an incident where people flew into Jan Smuts and were then taken to Swaziland?

MR SNYDERS: I can no longer recall such an incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Because you go on and you say how they were driven to Swaziland by Capt Moss, in a Vlakplaas vehicle. Or it's rather that he sent them to Swaziland after he met them at Jan Smuts airport.

MR SNYDERS: That is correct, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: And led them to the place of the ambush.

MR SNYDERS: That is how I have recalled it, but I may be mistaken in the sense that Capt Moss was simply involved but not to the extent that he led them into the ambush.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also talk of pushing the vehicle over the edge.

MR SNYDERS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: How far did it fall?

MR SNYDERS: Not very far, a section of the vehicle still emerged from the high ground.

CHAIRPERSON: And you also say that when you returned to the place you were staying at, everybody except yourself and de Kock, went to a disco. Is that correct?

MR SNYDERS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did that happen?

MR SNYDERS: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So all the other persons involved had a party that night.

MR SNYDERS: Well I didn't see them return, but they went out to have fun.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA: Only one question in re-examination if the Committee will allow me. Mr Snyders, it would appear from your application that you gave information of which you are not 100% certain of its accuracy, is there any specific reason why you gave the information as such?

MR SNYDERS: There is no reason, all the information is at it appeared in my recollection. I have given the information as I have recalled it, including the finer details. There is no reason why I should withhold anything or pretend that I don't know something.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may it please you. Visser on record. There appears to be two witnesses, to applicants left, the one is Mr du Plessis, who is ready and available to give evidence now. The other we hope to consult with during lunch time and to present his evidence this afternoon, Mr Chairman. May I hand up to you a statement of the evidence of Mr du Plessis. I understand that would be Exhibit M. Mr du Plessis is available and he is ready to take the oath, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Your full names please.

HENDRIK CHRISTOFFEL DU PLESSIS: (sworn states)

MR SIBANYONI: Sworn in, Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr du Plessis, you are an applicant in this application with regard to all offences or unlawful deeds which were committed by you in connection with the death of Louis Mohale, Derek Mashobane and Porta Shabangu, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: You completed an amnesty application form which was submitted to the TRC, and your application appears therein, as my friend, Mr Cornelius will state, folios 162 to 173 and specifically 170 to 171. Is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Do you confirm this aspect of your amnesty application, which is of course also subject to what you will submit to the Committee as your evidence here today?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I confirm this.

MR VISSER: During the completion of your application you were still in service to the South African Police Services, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR VISSER: What is the position now?

MR DU PLESSIS: Since then I have been discharged from service for medical reasons.

MR VISSER: With what rank?

MR DU PLESSIS: Senior Superintendent.

MR VISSER: Very well, and we will deal with this in a moment. But at the time of this incident during February 1989, you occupied the rank of Captain, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: In your amnesty application form, in response to question 7(a) and (b), you responded "Not Applicable". You state that this is not correct, that you were indeed a supporter of the National Party, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: And you then request that the Honourable Committee would grant you an amendment on page 162, to scrap "Not Applicable" with 7(a) and (b) and to replace this with "National Party" and "Supporter".

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: I move for such an amendment in this case as well, Mr Chairman. As it pleases you.

You have studied Exhibit A, do you agree with the evidence which is embodied therein and do you also request that the content thereof be incorporated with your evidence?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: With the permission of the Honourable Committee, I will lead you from page 2 of Exhibit M, which represents your evidence here before the Committee. It is a summary of your evidence. You state that from January 1988 up to and including approximately August 1989, you were stationed at the C1 Anti-Terrorism Unit at Vlakplaas, with the rank of Captain.

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You were under the command of Col Eugene de Kock and under the overall command of Brig Willem Schoon.

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: As a subordinate officer you carried out orders given by Col de Kock, as it is put here, strictly according to the need-to-know rule, which you applied.

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: The purpose behind Vlakplaas was to trace terrorists, to arrest them, but also to participate in operations during which persons were eliminated, such as this particular incident.

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Did you act at all times according to your insights, against the enemy of the government of the Republic of South Africa and in maintenance of the government?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You state in paragraph 3, on page 2 of Exhibit M, that during 1989, Col de Kock informed you that an operation was being planned in Swaziland and that the plan was for an askari from Vlakplaas, whose name you can no longer recall, to make contact with persons in Swaziland. Is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR VISSER: And firearms which were concealed in false compartments of your vehicles?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And in paragraph 6 you have stated according to the best of your recollection, which persons were involved in the operation, they were de Kock, Flores, Britz, Snyders, Lionel Snyman, Tait, Bellingan and Baker and then naturally yourself as well. Isn't that so?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: You entered Swaziland, did you enter Swaziland via the regular border post?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Did you enter Swaziland with your own passport?

MR DU PLESSIS: No, it was a false passport.

MR VISSER: And where did you obtain this false passport?

MR DU PLESSIS: We obtained them from the farm.

MR VISSER: From Vlakplaas?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Now just to cut a long story short, you were a member of the group which apprehended a vehicle containing the activists, in a cul-de-sac which created a semi-circle as I understand Mr de Kock's evidence, a semi-circle in a plantation just off the Mbabane road, is that correct?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Were you dropped off there and did the kombi which dropped you off then depart and were you then later picked up once again by this kombi?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Would you proceed from paragraph 9 on page 3 and tell the Committee about your recollection of the events which took place?

MR DU PLESSIS: There was a pile of stones packed next to the road so that the askari could see where he was supposed to stop. I was armed with an AK47 silenced gun. We brought the weapons that we were going to use with us from Vlakplaas. All of us were placed at one side of the road among the trees by Col de Kock, so that we would not shoot each other.

After the askari had picked up the group of persons, a radio message came through that they were on their way. I think the message was sent through by Dave Baker. The signal was "Cobra".

The activists arrived in the Opel. I cannot recall whether the askari arrived there with a separate vehicle or whether he travelled with them in their Opel, but I think they arrived there in two vehicles.

MR VISSER: Yes, according to the evidence of most of the other applicants who were present, it would appear that they arrived there in two separate vehicles, not so?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Very well.

MR DU PLESSIS: At the pile of stones the askaris stopped and the Opel also stopped. We then fired at the passengers of the Opel. I fired, but my gun stalled. I don't know how many rounds I fired before this happened. It is possible that I may have shot someone. There was no lighting, except for the lights of the vehicle in which the group travelled. We were close enough to the vehicle to be able to see him.

MR VISSER: Did you aim specifically at persons or did you aim at the vehicle, at places where you would have expected to find people seated?

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: The latter-mentioned?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: Very well.

MR DU PLESSIS: I cannot say for how long the shooting lasted, but it was over reasonably quickly. Seeing as it was dark I could see how many persons were in the vehicle. I also didn't go and look inside the vehicle. After the shooting we left the scene. The vehicle was not searched. We left the scene as quickly as possible. That night we tried to cross the border to the RSA, because we were afraid of the Swaziland Police. However, we did not succeed in this. We stayed over at one or other form of accommodation which I cannot recall the name of, I just know that there were small wooden cottages in which we stayed over after the incident. Early the following morning we left Swaziland by means of the same border post.

A few days after the incident, Brig Willem Schoon, our overall commander, visited Vlakplaas. He and Col de Kock discussed the matter and I drew the inference that he knew about the matter. However I do not know whether the order for the operation came from him. I am inferring however, that this was indeed the case because he would have to approve such operations, as well as the financial aspects thereof.

MR VISSER: Yes, well it is our evidence that this was indeed the case.

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes.

MR VISSER: Please continue.

MR DU PLESSIS: I do not know the person who were shot dead. I also do not know how many persons were in the vehicle. I cannot recall that we were ever told why we were supposed to shoot these persons dead. The inference that I drew is that they were terrorists who wanted to enter the RSA.

As I can recall when I compiled my amnesty application, the circumstances which were conveyed to me were that Col de Kock had received information from Col Willem Coetzee, that an informer had made contact with persons who were in Swaziland, who wished to infiltrate the RSA.

MR VISSER: Just somewhat slower please. On page 170 of your application in the bundle, under "Incident 1" you stated that Col de Kock informed you that he had received information from Willem Coetzee, and you state:

That appears in your amnesty application. Now you would agree with me that based upon the evidence that has been heard by the Committee, there was no informer who was involved in this matter. What do you say about this remark that you have made in your application?

MR DU PLESSIS: I concede that I was mistaken regarding that.

MR VISSER: That it is clearly not of application to this particular case?

MR DU PLESSIS: Correct.

MR VISSER: Please proceed.

MR DU PLESSIS: I now understand, in terms of the evidence given by Brig Schoon and Oosthuizen and Col W Coetzee, that there were other facts and backgrounds which formed the basis for this incident and the reason why these persons had to be eliminated.

I have no recollection that I was informed at the time of the incident, regarding the facts and considerations to which the aforementioned officers have referred to in their evidence. I request humbly that their evidence regarding the facts and the background, be incorporated with mine.

MR VISSER: Then on page 5 you have summarised your motivation for your participation in the incident. Could you explain this to the Committee.

MR DU PLESSIS: In motivation of my participation in these actions, I must firstly mention that I acted consistently in the execution of my duties in the Service of the SAP as I understood it and in execution of orders which I received from senior officers. During the struggle of the past, during which thousands were killed and injured and property was damaged by supporters of the liberation movements, and when the government was under threat and chaos and disorder threatened, it was sufficient motivation for us in the Security Branch to know that action would be taken against members or supporters of a liberation movement.

MR VISSER: And is that how you regarded these persons who were eliminated that evening?

MR DU PLESSIS: Correct.

MR VISSER: Very well.

MR DU PLESSIS: The struggle that we waged was a political struggle and everything that I did, I did in the execution of my duties as a policeman in protection of human life and property and in maintenance of the constitutional dispensation of the time and in support of the National Party and to prevent that the land fall into chaos and anarchy.

After all the changes that have taken place in our country since then, one has to wonder whether it was all worth it. The incident haunts me and I have regretted it much. However, I was in a situation where I could not refuse to participate in such an operation or to disregard such orders of a senior officer.

MR VISSER: Yes, then you continue to refer to the pressure which was exerted on members of the Security Branch by head office and the leadership of the time and that you believed that these actions that you have referred to were expected of you to execute.

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And with the exception of your regular remuneration, you were in no way rewarded or compensated for your participation in these actions?

MR DU PLESSIS: No.

MR VISSER: Did you act out of any personal malice or vengeance towards these persons on this evening?

MR DU PLESSIS: No.

MR VISSER: And you then request amnesty for your share in the conspiracy to murder these three persons as well as their murder, and all other offences or unlawful acts which were committed by you in the course of this incident.

MR DU PLESSIS: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.

MR HATTINGH: Hattingh, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.

MR BOOYENS: Booyens, no questions, Mr Chairman.

MR CORNELIUS: Cornelius, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions thank you.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS

MR ROSSOUW: Rossouw, Mr Chairman, no questions.

NO QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW

MR NEL: Nel, Mr Chairman, I've got no questions.

MR BOTHA: Botha, Mr Chairman, no questions.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Van Heerden, Mr Chairman, no questions.

ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: I've got not questions, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: No questions, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: We've been told that you all went to a disco that evening, do you remember that?

MR DU PLESSIS: Yes, I have heard that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you remember going to it?

MR DU PLESSIS: We were a few people who had a quick drink or cooldrink there, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: No re-examination, thank you, Mr Chairman. If the witness might be excused under the normal conditions.

CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, granted.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, as alluded to before, I have not consulted with the last witness to give evidence before you. Under the circumstances, would it please you to take your adjournment now and hopefully we'll be ready when you start again, to lead his evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll adjourn now till 2 o'clock.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: ... first, or are we going to deal with Mr Visser's ...

MR CORNELIUS ADDRESSES COMMITTEE RE D J BRITZ: I shall be brief with Mr Britz, as far as Mr Britz is concerned. I don't know if Mr Visser has had to opportunity to look at the affidavit.

MR VISSER: It's fine.

MR CORNELIUS: Thank you. I've tabled all the documentation with the Committee. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Chairman, you will note I've filed an affidavit setting out the circumstances and I've also filed and successfully traced the complete amnesty application under 3745, which is supposed to be part of the documentation before the Committee, which I've annexured and then I've done a short resume of the evidence which he would have given here, which I think you'll find in Annexure D, setting out his political motives and everything in detail.

And you will also note there's a further affidavit which I filed upon the request of the Committee, to indicate which incidents the various applicants were involve in, where I also reflected that he was in fact involved in the cross-border raid, but the date unfortunately is not exactly the correct date. That's the way he remembered it.

I've finally then annexed Annexure E, a medical certificate from a clinical psychologist which indicates that he's under severe treatment at the moment and he will be hospitalised on the 4th of October.

CHAIRPERSON: In a few days.

MR CORNELIUS: I'd be pleased if the Committee could accept this as part of his evidence ...(indistinct) testified before. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So we now enrol this application?

MR CORNELIUS: I'd be pleased if the matter could be enrolled and this be read into the record as part of his testimony. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright.

MR CORNELIUS: Can I hand up the original signed document? Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR CORNELIUS: That would be Exhibit N, thank you to my learned colleague, Mr Visser. Thank you, Mr Chair.

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, may it please you. We're indebted to you for the few minutes extra which we were granted. The time was a little short, but we've tried to do our best during the time available to us, and we are going to call Mr Finias Moshualiba to give evidence, Mr Chairman. He prefers to speak in Sotho and to give his evidence in Sotho, so it will have to be...

FINIAS MOSHUALIBA: (sworn states)

MR SIBANYONI: Sworn in, Mr Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Mr - I understand from what I gathered from the Sotho being spoken, that your surname is not Moshualiba, but Moshuadiba, is that correct?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, Mr Visser, the spelling remains the same, only the L is pronounced as a D, Moshualiba.

EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Oh, oh I see. I'll live with that, Mr Chairman.

You are an applicant in this incident and you ask for amnesty for any offence or delict committed by you in regard to an incident which took place near Mbabane in Swaziland, during approximately the 12th to the 13th of February 1989, in which incident one, Louis Mohale, alias Thabo, one, Derek Moshobane and one, Porta Shabangu were murdered, is that correct?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You have filed a proper and complete amnesty application, which is to be found in the bundle at page 194 and following. You deal with the incident at page 196 and you deal with political objectives on page 197 and onwards. During the brief consultation which we had during the lunch hour, we went through paragraph 10 at page 197, and you thought that some of those paragraphs do not apply to you. Can you just tell the Chairman and the Committee which of the paragraphs apply to and which don't.

MR MOSHUALIBA: Those which affect me is paragraph number 1, number 2, 3, 4 and 6.

MR VISSER: Yes. And the others don't.

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: Do you confirm the contents of your amnesty application, subject to what you've just told us, as being true and correct?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Moshualiba, you were a policeman in 1989, is that correct?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Is it also correct that you were stationed at Soweto since 1981, where you joined the Security Branch Intelligence Group?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And in 1989, were you then functioning under Group D, that is the Intelligence Group at Security Headquarters, Pretoria?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was your immediate commander, Col Willem Coetzee?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And his immediate commander, Brig Oosthuizen?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And the group commander was General Erasmus?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You became a policeman and after having done so, were you given a specific task to fulfil?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: I'm referring to the fact that you became and RS Agent. Can you remember your RS number?

MR MOSHUALIBA: It was RS238.

MR VISSER: Yes. And RS refers to policeman, not ordinary informers, is that correct? Republic of South Africa, I think it stands for or whatever, but it refers to a policeman who infiltrates and not an informer.

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And as such, what were your tasks, what were you supposed to do?

MR MOSHUALIBA: I was requested to associate myself with various student organisations at schools and at tertiary level, with the intention to gather intelligence.

MR VISSER: Were you in fact placed on a campus by the police, as a student?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct yes, I was placed in a particular campus as a student at the teacher's training college and from there I was transferred to the university thereafter.

MR VISSER: Which university was that?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is Vista University.

MR VISSER: And is that situated at Vereeniging?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, the campus was in Vereeniging.

MR VISSER: What did you understand to be the reason why it was so important that the police wanted to infiltrate student movements? What were the students doing?

MR MOSHUALIBA: I thought the intention to do that was that the students took part in the struggle for liberation.

MR VISSER: According to your own knowledge, did they hold meetings and did they have marches?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, they used to hold various meetings and then they used to have practise marches.

MR VISSER: And did some of these marches - were some of these marches accompanied by violence?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Mainly yes. If there was a march it would happen that later many people would be hurt or injured.

MR VISSER: And these marches and meetings, did they have a strong political foundation?

MR MOSHUALIBA: In terms of my observation that was correct.

MR VISSER: What was your view at the time of how or what the ANC wanted to use the students to do?

MR MOSHUALIBA: My understand was that the ANC wanted students to be one of the pillars of the struggle during those years.

MR VISSER: Alright. If we can go over to the facts then. Is it correct that at some stage during 1988, you came to meet Mr Louis Mohale?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Was he a member of a student organisation?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, he was one of the members of one of the student movements.

MR VISSER: Will you tell us which one?

MR MOSHUALIBA: At the time when I met him, he was a member of Sansco.

MR VISSER: Sansco. What was his position, was he an ordinary member, was he a leader figure, how did you judge his position in Sansco?

MR MOSHUALIBA: He was in the leadership position at the time when I met him.

MR VISSER: Yes. Would you have regarded him as an activist?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson, he was one of the people who were active.

MR VISSER: Yes. I was just going to ask you why you say so. You say he was active, active in what sense?

MR MOSHUALIBA: He was one of those who were arranging meetings and those who would go to various meetings.

MR VISSER: Did he arrange protest actions as well?

MR MOSHUALIBA: I don't remember as to whether he was party to that group which were arranging protest marches.

MR VISSER: Now when you met Mr Mohale, was he a student at the time and if so, with which institution?

MR MOSHUALIBA: At the time when I met him he was a student at Unisa.

MR VISSER: Were you able in fact, to gain the confidence of Mr Mohale?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And did you have informal discussions with Mr Mohale from time to time?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Yes, that is correct, it happened many times.

MR VISSER: And did some of those discussions revolve around politics and the armed struggle in the country?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson, we used to talk about those issues.

MR VISSER: And what were the views of Mr Mohale, as he expressed them to you? What did he intend to do?

MR MOSHUALIBA: He used to tell me that there was an intention from their side that they should have a military training and then again, so that they would be able to have arms. Then again, to have a contact with the African National Congress outside the country.

MR VISSER: Yes. So there were three issues which were important to Mr Mohale. One is contact with the ANC abroad, secondly is to obtain military training and thirdly, to obtain weapons, is that how I understand you?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Just incidentally, did he ever talk to you about any other university that he might have attended?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Yes, initially when I began to meet him, he told me that he was once a student at the University of the North and then he was dismissed because of their student activities.

MR VISSER: Yes, I heard you used the word "Turfloop". That wasn't translated, but that is the University of the North, it's known as Turfloop, is that correct?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Did he also tell you what happened to him at Turfloop?

MR MOSHUALIBA: As I've already explained, he was involved in student political activities, then he was ultimately dismissed from the university.

MR VISSER: He was expelled?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: At the time when you got to know Mr Mohale, you say he was then a student of UNISA, where was he then living, in 1989?

MR MOSHUALIBA: He told me that he was residing at Diepkloof. Even if I was not able to be there once, but he told that he was staying at that place.

MR VISSER: Yes. You never went to visit him at his home?

MR MOSHUALIBA: No, Sir, I did not visit him at home.

MR VISSER: Did you at some stage become aware whether or not other students within Sansco, shared the ideas which you told us about, that Mr Louis Mohale had contact abroad, weapons training and importation of weapons? Were there others that shared those views with him?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Those beliefs were only resting in his person and then again, there were some few people who were sharing the same ideas with him.

MR VISSER: In fact, did he and a few of the other students form a tight-knit group within Sansco?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Yes, that was my understanding, that there were people who were closer to him.

MR VISSER: Yes. And how big was this group, as far as you know? How many members did this nucleus group consist of?

MR MOSHUALIBA: In terms of my observations and our discussions, it would approximately 10, or a little more than 10.

MR VISSER: And would you describe this group as militant and politicised?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Yes, that is correct, because they were above board in terms of the political activities.

MR VISSER: And who was the leader of that group, as far as you could make out?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Even if I would not say it directly who was their leader, but my observation was that Louis was one of the persons who was free to talk about those issues.

MR VISSER: Did this group support any political organisation in the country at the time?

MR MOSHUALIBA: According to my understanding of Sansco, Sansco was supporting ANC.

MR VISSER: And what about the members of this group that you told us about, was it the same in their case?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, that is the same with that nucleus group, that they were supporting ANC.

MR VISSER: Now there must have been many other issues which might have been of interest to the Security Police at the time, but we confined ourselves to what you've told this Committee this morning, can I ask you this, did you make regular reports about what you learnt, from your infiltrated position, to someone?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, that was my work, I used to do that many times.

MR VISSER: And to whom did you report?

MR MOSHUALIBA: I was giving these reports directly to Mr Coetzee.

MR VISSER: Mr Willem Coetzee?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Sir.

MR VISSER: Now at some stage during about the beginning of 1989, something happened, is that correct?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Will you tell the Committee what you learnt at that time?

MR MOSHUALIBA: I learnt that Louis Mohale and some few people were prepared that it was the right time for them to continue with their objectives, to go to neighbouring countries to contact the ANC.

MR VISSER: Just incidentally, during about that time, can you tell the Committee how wide the influence was that Mr Louis Mohale had in Sansco. Was it confined to Diepkloof or did his influence and his ideas go wider than that?

MR MOSHUALIBA: According to my observation, he had contacts with various people in various provinces who were members of Sansco.

MR VISSER: In fact, contact with people in the Free State?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And in the Cape?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Alright. So when you heard that they were planning to put their objectives in action, did you then report to Willem Coetzee again?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Yes, that is what I did, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And what was the idea, how were you going to react to this situation, what were you going to do?

MR MOSHUALIBA: I reported to Mr Willem Coetzee, then he informed me to continue to understand their plan as to when and how.

MR VISSER: Was it mentioned by Willem Coetzee that a vehicle might be made available to them with which they could go to wherever they wanted to go?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, that was so.

MR VISSER: And initially, what was the vehicle that you spoke about?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Initially they were talking about a kombi, but later it was changed to be, for a small car.

MR VISSER: At that time, did you drive a motor car which you had received from the police?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, I had a car which it was underwritten under my name and which I was using.

MR VISSER: Was it registered in your name?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And what kind of car was that?

MR MOSHUALIBA: It was a white Opel Kadett.

MR VISSER: So after having spoken about the kombi, you say later Coetzee told you that the decision was now that the car had to be made available to Louis Mohale, is that correct?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And which car was eventually made available to Louis Mohale?

MR MOSHUALIBA: He was given the white Opel Kadett which I talked about earlier.

MR VISSER: Yes. Now is it correct that Louis Mohale in fact was allowed by you to borrow that car prior to this occasion that we're talking about now? Is that correct?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct. It happened that one day I borrowed him this car before their departure to Swaziland.

MR VISSER: And why did you allow him to use your car, what was the purpose of doing that?

MR MOSHUALIBA: He wanted to meet people who were going with him to discuss about the arrangements to Swaziland.

MR VISSER: So you then told Louis Mohale that he could have your car, is that correct, to go to Swaziland?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, I did so.

MR VISSER: And at some stage were you told by Mohale, when they planned to leave?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What was your impression, how many of this group, this nucleus group, would be going to Swaziland on that occasion?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Because they were going to use this small car I thought four or five people would accompany him, or go together with him.

MR VISSER: Yes. And were you then told by them that they intended to leave, or rather told by Mr Mohale, that he intended to leave with his group on a certain Saturday?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: You can't remember the date exactly?

MR MOSHUALIBA: I don't remember the date, Chairperson, but I remember that it was on a Saturday.

MR VISSER: Are you prepared to accept that it might have been on the 12th of February 1989?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, I would not dispute that.

MR VISSER: This motorcar, just to tie that up, was there something strange, something peculiar about this motorcar or was it a straightforward car that you had bought? Where did this car come from?

CHAIRPERSON: He's told us hasn't he, that it was provided by the police.

MR VISSER: Well if you don't mind me doing so, Chairperson, I will then lead him.

Was this a Regulation 80(6) motorcar?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: So again, I take it you made reports to Coetzee and on this particular Saturday, which was planned by Louis Mohale, did you then hand the car to him?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Where did this happen?

MR MOSHUALIBA: It happened around Bloemfontein in - Braamfontein, in Johannesburg.

MR VISSER: Braamfontein. Did you give him any instructions as to making contact with you when he arrived in Swaziland?

MR MOSHUALIBA: I did that, Chairperson, I gave him a telephone number where he would be able to contact me whilst he was in Swaziland.

MR VISSER: And was that a telephone number in a hotel room which you used as a safehouse in Johannesburg?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: Is it true that before they left you were instructed by Coetzee to attempt to retain control over their movements and whom they were to meet in Swaziland, as far as possible?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That was so, because it happened that I gave him a telephone number so that he would be able to contact me as to whether they have arrived and what was happening in Swaziland.

MR VISSER: Yes. Was anything done to prevent Louis Mohale and his group from making contact with real MK people in Swaziland?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That was the intention of the police, to intercept their movement.

MR VISSER: Did you in fact inform Mohale that you could arrange for him to meet MK people in Swaziland?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That's what I've explained to him whilst he was still arranging that trip.

MR VISSER: At the time when you suggested to him that you could put him in touch with MK people, had he already firmly decided before that time that he was going to Swaziland, no matter what?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is what he told me, that they are going to Swaziland, but they would have a problem as to who within the ANC they would meet. That is where I made the suggestion that I would be able to make a contact for them in Swaziland.

MR VISSER: Did you in any way coax Louis Mohale or anyone else to go to Swaziland to make contact with the ANC to attempt to obtain military training and to bring weapons into this country?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Not at all, Chairperson, I did not do such things.

MR VISSER: On the morning when they left, did you give Louis Mohale something which he was to use as a code or an introduction to somebody that he was going to meet in Swaziland?

MR MOSHUALIBA: I did that, Chairperson, I gave him a music cassette.

CHAIRPERSON: He gave him what? Could you repeat please.

INTERPRETER: A music cassette.

MR VISSER: A music cassette, Chairperson.

You don't remember what it was, but we've heard from other witnesses here that it was the Tracy Chapman tape. In any event, what was he to do with this tape?

MR MOSHUALIBA: He was supposed to have it on his person, even if I did not know the words he would use there would be a person who would talk about(sic) him about Tracy Chapman's music.

MR VISSER: And after you had received instructions from Coetzee, did you in fact inform Louis Mohale where a meeting could be arranged between him and his group and members of MK, which you would arrange in Swaziland?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson, I informed him that he would meet some people at the post office in Manzini.

MR VISSER: Right. On the Saturday morning when they left, how many of them in fact left Braamfontein for Swaziland?

MR MOSHUALIBA: At the time I handed the car over to him, there were two people.

MR VISSER: So they were altogether three people?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, they were three people.

MR VISSER: Can you recall what time more-or-less, Louis Mohale and the other two persons left Braamfontein with the Opel Kadett?

MR MOSHUALIBA: It was between 7 to 8 o'clock in the morning.

MR VISSER: The other two people who went with Mr Mohale, what were their sex?

MR MOSHUALIBA: There was one male, he told me that he was from Bloemfontein and a female person, who came from Kangwane, if I remember well.

MR VISSER: Did you know anything about these people, I'm now talking about these other two people, or their activities before then?

MR MOSHUALIBA: I did not meet them before and I did not know them before, but I understood that they were members of Sansco.

MR VISSER: And were they also, as your understanding went, closely associated with Louis Mohale?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That was my understanding, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: After the Opel Kadett had left with the three people, what did you then do?

MR MOSHUALIBA: I left that place, then I met Mr Coetzee again, where I told him that they've departed to Swaziland.

MR VISSER: Did you go to this hotel room which was used as a safehouse?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, we went to that hotel where we were waiting for their phone call.

MR VISSER: And there were a number of people in that room present, but you can't remember who they all were, is that correct?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Yes, there were some people who were together with us, but I don't remember their identity.

MR VISSER: But one of the persons that you can remember is a certain Joseph Pitse(?), is that correct?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct.

MR VISSER: And you refer to him in your amnesty application at page 196, at the first paragraph marked with a *, Chairperson:

The only point I want to make about this is that insofar as the impression may be created that it was you and Pitse who worked together in this infiltration of Sansco, would that be correct, or was that not the position?

MR MOSHUALIBA: It was not like that, as it is written on that document because I was not working with him on a daily basis, he was working at a different field, though he was doing the same job, the same work of infiltration.

MR VISSER: Alright. But for what it's worth, he was present in the hotel room. And did any telephone calls come through to that hotel room on that particular Saturday? ...(end of side A of tape)

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, the first call was from Louis where he was informing me that they've arrived in Swaziland, though they've arrived late, but they were not able to find a person where he was directed.

MR VISSER: At the post office?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And what time did this telephone call come through from Louis Mohale?

MR MOSHUALIBA: It was at night, I think it was around 9 o'clock to 10 o'clock.

MR VISSER: Did he also inform you about whether they had met any persons in Swaziland or not?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Yes, he told me that he met some people in Swaziland and then they made arrangements to meet again the following day, which was on Sunday.

MR VISSER: Did you ask Louis Mohale any particulars about whom he met and what the meeting was about?

MR MOSHUALIBA: No, I did not ask anything because I did not want to engage in the conversation for a long time with them.

MR VISSER: Alright. What did you tell Mohale to do?

MR MOSHUALIBA: ...(no English interpretation)

MR VISSER: No, it's not that.

MR MOSHUALIBA: I informed him to return to the post office where we agreed that he would meet those people.

MR VISSER: And did you then end that telephone conversation?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: What was the other call that came in about, who was the person who called and what did you hear about what was said on that occasion?

MR MOSHUALIBA: The second call was from a white person, it was a white person who called.

MR VISSER: How could you tell?

MR MOSHUALIBA: It's because of his voice that I learnt that he was a white person. Then I handed over the call to Mr Coetzee.

MR VISSER: Yes. Was any report made to you about what that call was about?

MR MOSHUALIBA: No, I was not informed about that telephonic conversation.

MR VISSER: Did Coetzee tell the people in the room what the call was about?

MR MOSHUALIBA: I learnt that it was a call from the people who met those people in Swaziland, though I did not know their identity.

MR VISSER: Up to this stage, did you suspect anything might happen to Louis Mohale and his companions?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Up to the point where we received these two calls I would explain that I did not have a suspicion that anything wrong would happen to these people in Swaziland. I did not have any suspicion at that time, or before these two calls.

MR VISSER: And after the two calls, what did you then suspect might be happening?

MR MOSHUALIBA: I suspected that those people would be directed to an ambush.

MR VISSER: And they might be eliminated?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Yes, that is correct.

MR VISSER: And in point of fact, a day or two later you were informed that that is exactly what had happened?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, I learnt from Mr Coetzee that something like that happened.

MR VISSER: Were you surprised when he told you that?

MR MOSHUALIBA: I would not say I was surprised that much, because at Saturday night that is where I started to have a suspicion that something like that would happen. That that information confirmed the suspicions which I had, that those people would be killed.

MR VISSER: Did you receive your car back, the one that you lent to Louis Mohale and the other two people?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Not at all, I did not get it back because Mr Coetzee told me that that car has been damaged.

MR VISSER: Did you get another car from the police?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, it happened that I was given another car which was similar to the one I had before.

MR VISSER: It was identical to the one you had before, it had the same numberplates, not so?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson.

MR VISSER: And was that car then registered in your - or well, sorry Chairperson, that's a stupid question, I'll withdraw that.

You could have, should have reported what you learnt from Coetzee, a day or two later, about what had happened to these people, shouldn't you?

MR MOSHUALIBA: Yes, I was supposed to report to the police.

MR VISSER: Why didn't you, Mr Moshualiba?

MR MOSHUALIBA: At the time when this incident happened people were murdered from all sides, therefore it was difficult for me to take that step because I was working under the instructions of the people I was working under.

MR VISSER: Did you consider that there was a war going on in this country?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, Chairperson, there was war in this country at that time.

MR VISSER: And according to your perceptions, what role did MK, Umkhonto weSizwe, play in that war?

MR MOSHUALIBA: MK was planning to overthrow the government with force.

MR VISSER: And who were legitimate targets to MK?

MR MOSHUALIBA: According to my knowledge, the people who were targets and those who should be eliminated mainly were members of the police, members of the South African Defence Force and those people who were enhancing the objectives of the previous government, like members of the municipal councils.

MR VISSER: And this war, where did your loyalties lie?

MR MOSHUALIBA: At that time I was a policeman, my loyalty lay with the police and I was working under the instructions of the South African Police, therefore I associated myself with the decisions taken by the police.

MR VISSER: And you ask for amnesty for any offence or delict committed by you in regard to this incident, is that correct?

MR MOSHUALIBA: That is correct, I'm asking amnesty in that regard.

MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the evidence.

MR HATTINGH: Hattingh on record, Mr Chairman, I have no questions, thank you.

MR BOOYENS: Booyens on record, Mr Chairman, no questions, thank you.

MR CORNELIUS: Cornelius on record, Mr Chair, no questions.

MR ROSSOUW: Rossouw, Mr Chairman, no questions.

MR NEL: Nel, no questions, Mr Chairman.

MR BOTHA: Botha, Mr Chairman, no questions.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Van Heerden, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, it's been indicated to me by the family of Thabo Mohale that they need an opportunity to speak to me. I request an adjournment, there's a lot of new information which has only now been placed before this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: How long do you think you'll need?

MR VAN HEERDEN: Mr Chairman, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Shall we take the adjournment now, because I ask you to bear in mind that as I said at the beginning, we are going to adjourn at three thirty at the latest.

MR VAN HEERDEN: Mr Chairman, I think we should take an adjournment until tomorrow, it might save a lot of time after proper instructions.

CHAIRPERSON: Nine thirty tomorrow morning, gentlemen? Right, we'll adjourn till nine thirty tomorrow. There's no problems about this applicant remaining here, are there?

MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I haven't made enquiries about that, there may or there may not ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Your attorney appears to be satisfied.

MR VISSER: We'd better make enquiries, Mr Chairman, yes. We'll make enquiries and if there's really a problem, well then we can do nothing about it anyway. We'll solve the problem, Mr Chairman.