--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. Today we are starting a number of Hearings that have been set down for the week. We have 9 separate matters. I apologise for the late start this morning, but it is usual with the first day of hearings. It all has to be set up, counsel have to consult etc on various problems. Before we start I would like to just immediately introduce the Panel to you. On my right is Judge Chris de Jager, he's a member of the Amnesty Committee. He comes from Pretoria. On my left is Adv Sigodi, who is also a member of the Amnesty Committee. She comes from Port Elizabeth and I am Selwyn Miller, also a Judge of the High Court. I come from Umtata. Before we start I would also like to ask the legal representatives if they could kindly place themselves on record, but before we do that, we're starting with ...(indistinct) Mr Samuel Thebisa Ntho.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you Judge. My name is Brian Kopedi. I appear on behalf of Mr Ntho.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kopedi.

MS LOCKHAT: My name is Lyn Lockhat and I appear on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Lockhat. These proceedings will be simultaneously translated. If you wish to benefit from the translation, then you must please obtain one of these devices, this headset, they are available from the sound technician. Mr Kopedi.

MR KOPEDI: Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, we are ready to begin and I would ask that the applicant be sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kopedi.

SAMUEL THEBISA NTHO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ntho. Mr Kopedi.

EXAMINATION BY MR KOPEDI: Mr Ntho, is it correct that you are an applicant in this matter and that the application revolves around an incident of throwing of a hand grenade at a contingent of police?

MR NTHO: That is correct.

MR KOPEDI: Is it also correct that this incident occurred on the 24th of January 1992?

MR NTHO: That is correct.

MR KOPEDI: Now at this stage, were you a member of any political organisation?

MR NTHO: Yes, I was.

MR KOPEDI: Which political organisation?

MR NTHO: I was a member of the ANC.

MR KOPEDI: When did you join the ANC?

MR NTHO: In 1989.

MR KOPEDI: Where did you join the ANC?

MR NTHO: In Tanzania.

MR KOPEDI: You say in 1989 in Tanzania?

MR NTHO: That is correct.

MR KOPEDI: Did you undergo any military training?

MR NTHO: That is correct.

MR KOPEDI: When did you come back to South Africa?

MR NTHO: In 1991 on the 11th of December.

MR KOPEDI: Okay. Now let's go to the events of the 24th of January 1992. Where were you on this day?

MR NTHO: I was at Mrs Radebe's house in Sharpeville.

MR KOPEDI: And what were you doing there?

MR NTHO: We spent a night there, we slept over there.

MR KOPEDI: You and who?

MR NTHO: It was myself, Thabo Mosebe, Khubeka and Ephraim Lefiedi.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Ntho, if you could just please repeat those names again.

MR NTHO: It was myself, Thabo Mosebe, Kenneth Khubeka and Ephraim Lefiedi.

MR KOPEDI: Was there any other person, other than these gentlemen?

MR NTHO: It was Mrs Radebe and her daughter besides the ones I've mentioned.

MR KOPEDI: Now where were you? Were you at a house or in a house?

MR NTHO: We were in a house.

MR KOPEDI: What were you doing?

MR NTHO: We were sleeping.

MR KOPEDI: Briefly tell this Honourable Committee what happened, you know, what led to this incident?

MR NTHO: When I arrived, people came home to ask where I was and I saw it necessary to hide because I did not know why did they want me. I guessed they were going to harm me also, so it happened that we got a hiding place at Mrs Radebe's house so that we can hide there.

At night when we were asleep, if I'm not mistaken I think it was in the morning, 2/3 o'clock in the morning, while we were still asleep, there was a bad knock. Somebody knocked at the door inhumanely and then those people who were knocking roughly opened the door themselves.

I took a grenade from Kenneth Khubeka and it was dark in the house. I took a grenade from Khubeka, I released the pin. They were now in the kitchen. I went out of the bedroom. I placed the grenade on the floor and I pushed it, coming behind it. I then pushed it so that it does not explode on me. When I was at the door, it then exploded. I went outside. I jumped the fence. They fired at me whilst I was still running away. When I was just about to turn around the corner into another street, they shot me in the back and on the leg. They then came back with me, they made me lie down.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kopedi, before you proceed, could I just get some information? Mr Ntho you said that you decided to go to Mrs Radebe's house because people were asking where you were? Did you go there in the company of Khubeka and Ephraim, or did you find them there?

MR NTHO: The four of us went together.

CHAIRPERSON: And why was it that Mr Khubeka was in possession of a hand grenade?

MR NTHO: He got those hand grenades from Ephraim Lefiedi. Those were the hand grenades to defend ourselves when they were harassing us. I'm referring to the police.

CHAIRPERSON: So were you a unit, the four of you?

MR NTHO: We were not a unit as such, let me put it that way. We were not a unit, but all of us were companions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you Mr Kopedi.

MR KOPEDI: Now Mr Ntho, after - perhaps before then. The people who came and knocked at the door and even broke the door, did you have any idea who they were?

MR NTHO: I did not know who they were.

MR KOPEDI: But could you tell whether these were police or soldiers or people about to rob the house, could you tell?

MR NTHO: Can you please repeat your question, I do not quite understand it?

MR KOPEDI: Okay. The people attacked were police. Now I want to know from you as to whether did you know when the doors were being broken and there was the bad knocking you referred to, could you tell if these were police?

MR NTHO: I could not tell at first, but I only realised that they were police when they were dragging me back to the house. When I woke up from my sleep, I was a little bit disturbed. There is nothing that you would notice when you wake up. You would not even differentiate between colours, whether this colour is red. You would not.

MR KOPEDI: Now, what was the political situation in and around Sharpeville those times, January 1992?

MR NTHO: I arrived in the country on the 11th of December. From that date until the 24th, I did not notice many things. I did not notice what was happening politically.

MR KOPEDI: Okay. When you threw this hand grenade, what was your intention?

MR NTHO: I did not know who the people were. Now by throwing this hand grenade, I was avoiding danger or death that these people were bringing.

MR KOPEDI: Now what is the political objective that you sought to achieve by throwing this hand grenade?

MR NTHO: These people continually harassed me then I had to protect myself because I was a member of a political organisation.

MR KOPEDI: Did you receive any personal gain out of this exercise?

MR NTHO: No, Sir.

MR KOPEDI: Were you imprisoned for this offence?

MR NTHO: Yes, I was.

MR KOPEDI: Did you serve a sentence?

MR NTHO: Yes, I served a sentence.

MR KOPEDI: How long a sentence?

MR NTHO: I was sentenced to 8 years, I spent 4 years in prison.

MR KOPEDI: Do you think you have told this Honourable Committee all there is to tell about this incident?

MR NTHO: Yes, Sir.

MR KOPEDI: Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, that will be the applicant's application.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kopedi. Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions you'd like to put to the applicant?

MS LOCKHAT: Yes, thank you, Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Mr Ntho, tell me, did you realise that it was the policemen that night at the door?

MR NTHO: No, I did not.

MS LOCKHAT: So when you triggered the hand grenade, you were not sure who was on the other side of the door, is that correct?

MR NTHO: I wasn't sure. What are you referring to when you say I wasn't sure? Put it in a different way, maybe I will understand it.

MS LOCKHAT: When you heard the knock on the door and you realised that the people were trying to come in and you thought they were looking for you, did you realise at that stage that it was the police? I assume you didn't realise it at that stage. Am I correct?

CHAIRPERSON: I think he's already said that at the time that he rolled or threw the hand grenade, he didn't know they were police. What I can gather, perhaps Mr Ntho can correct me if I'm wrong, but these people, you say that they knocked hard on the door and that they forcefully entered through the door. Did they break down the door? Did they kick it in?

MR NTHO: Yes, they must have broken the door down, because they were knocking hardly on the door.

CHAIRPERSON: Was the door locked, that you know of?

MR NTHO: Yes, the door was locked.

CHAIRPERSON: And you keep talking about they, Mr Ntho, did you have any idea, or at the time when you took the pin out of the grenade, how many people there were, whether it was only one person or if there were a number and if you thought there were a number of people, what made you think that?

MR NTHO: I think I mentioned earlier on that when I got out of the bedroom with a grenade in my hand, there was a group of people in the kitchen.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you just give us some approximation, how many people were there, 3, 5, more?

MR NTHO: Let me explain it this way, you might understand me. When I got out of the bedroom, I found a group of people in the kitchen. When I was outside running away, I was shot at and the people who were outside shot at me.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat.

MS LOCKHAT: Do you know of any people that were injured by yourself that night?

MR NTHO: I do not know. I was injured, I was taken to the hospital. Who got injured, how many of them got injured, I do not know, but what I noticed when I was in court, I saw photographs of people whom I was told were injured.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mrs Radebe and her daughter, were they injured?

MR NTHO: No, they were not.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And your colleagues there, any of them injured?

MR NTHO: Two of them died on the spot. I was injured. Kenneth Khubeka escaped unharmed, but two of them died on the spot.

MS LOCKHAT: You also said that you were being continually harassed by people. Can you just explain to us who these people were?

MR NTHO: I do not know because they would arrive at home in my absence and they would not leave their names, would they? They did not leave their names, they would just arrive at home and ask where the person was. If the person was not at home they would leave and on my arrival I would be told the police were here looking for you.

MS LOCKHAT: Would you say that on that particular night, that the policemen were looking for you and maybe your friends and that they wanted to take you and arrest you? Would you say that that was what was happening that particular night and therefore you threw the hand grenade?

MR NTHO: Repeat your question Ma'am, I did not understand it.

MS LOCKHAT: Would you say that you threw the hand grenade on that particular night because you thought that these people, or the police were going to arrest you and therefore you threw the hand grenade to protect yourself and the people that were with you?

MR NTHO: Had I known that they were police, I would have in any way carried on with the throwing of the grenade. These people have a tendency, they just arrest you, take you to their offices and they would bind you, tie you up with ropes and they would torture you. Have you ever felt the pain of being tortured by many people and yet you cannot defend yourself? Now instead of that happening, I would rather be shot on the head, because the next day after the torture, you are left with pains.

MS LOCKHAT: Were you arrested, on how many occasions were you arrested by the police? I gather that you were arrested and tortured by the police previous to this occasion. Can you just explain that to us?

MR NTHO: I think I was arrested when I was 16 years old at the borders to Botswana, that's where I gathered the experience that these people are not good at all. That's where I realised that it is painful to be tortured while you cannot defend yourself.

CHAIRPERSON: Why do you think the police were looking for you to arrest you?

MR NTHO: I had been from exile, maybe they wanted me to use me, but I think they wanted to use me. When I left the country there was no good relationship between me and them. I came back knowing that there are people who can chase me at any time when I'm back.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kopedi, do you have any re-examination?

MR KOPEDI: No, nothing in re-examination, thank you Chairperson.

NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR KOPEDI

CHAIRPERSON: Judge de Jager, do you have any questions you would like to put?

JUDGE DE JAGER: No questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi, any questions?

ADV SIGODI: Just one, thank you Chair. You say two of your colleagues died on the spot? Did they die ...(intervention)

MR NTHO: Yes, two of them died on the spot.

ADV SIGODI: Did they die as a result of the hand grenade or did they did as a result of being shot at by the police?

MR NTHO: They were not killed by the grenade. This is what I would say to you. I saw with my own eyes when they went outside, I was already on the ground, after having been shot, they came out with Ephraim. There were many around him and they shot him and they threw him at me. When I touched him, I discovered that he had died already. It was just sheer luck that I survived. Maybe I was the one meant to die on the spot.

ADV SIGODI: Was there any damage caused to Mrs Radebe's house as a result of the hand grenade?

MR NTHO: I think there were damages to the house. I was taken to the hospital, from the hospital to the cells, but I believe there were damages to the house in the kitchen. I think damage can also be equated to what they did when they were knocking on the doors and breaking the windows.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntho, your three companions that went with you to hide in Mrs Radebe's house, were they also recently returned from exile?

MR NTHO: It was myself and Ephraim Lefiedi who came back from exile.

CHAIRPERSON: And is there any reason why all four of you went to hide at Mrs Radebe? You said that police came to your house making inquiries about you, why did the four of you go and hide there and not just yourself?

MR NTHO: It is unfortunate that Mr Ephraim Lefiedi is no longer with us. What he said to me, he said that he heard that there are people driving cars looking for him to kill him. That might be one of the reasons why they went to Mrs Radebe's house.

CHAIRPERSON: And just one last question. Did you yourself, prior to going to Mrs Radebe's house, live in Sharpeville, or did you go to Mrs Radebe's house from another area?

MR NTHO: I'd been living in Sharpeville.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Kopedi, do you have any questions arising out of questions that have been put by members of the Panel?

MR KOPEDI: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ntho, that concludes your evidence. You may stand down.

MR KOPEDI: Chairperson, that should conclude his application, there are no further witnesses we wish to call.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kopedi. Are you in a position to make submissions?

MR KOPEDI: A verbal submission Chairperson and a short one.

MR KOPEDI IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, I submit that the applicant who has just been before you here, Mr Ntho, was a member of a political organisation at the relevant time.

It is my further submission that he has complied with the requirements of the Act in terms of giving you a full disclosure of the events that happened that day and in brief Chairperson, we have a person, a member of the ANC who had just returned from exile, who believed that there were people after him.

Looking at the political situation in that area at that time, it is my submission that it was justified that a person in his capacity would believe that he may be set up for an attack.

Chairperson, the attack on the police, that is the use of the hand grenade, my submission is that there was no personal gain that this applicant achieved. He wasn't paid for doing that and the attack was solely in his mind to defend himself and perhaps his colleagues.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Kopedi I should have perhaps have asked Mr Ntho a further question, but maybe you could just inform us. Was either Mrs Radebe or her daughter ever charged with anything as a result of what happened that night?

MR KOPEDI: To my knowledge no, they were not charged.

CHAIRPERSON: Why I'm asking, were the police in going to her house, they weren't going for her or her daughter, but for ...(intervention)

MR KOPEDI: As it would appear Chairperson, the only person charged was the applicant who has just been before you and my instructions and from consultations it appears that the police raided this house because they knew that there would be activists of this sort in that house and finally Chairperson, I believe that you should be able to find enough political motivation and objectives in terms of his actions and I submit that this applicant is legible for amnesty.

CHAIRPERSON: And the applicant, he was charged only in respect of what took place at that house?

MR KOPEDI: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: He wasn't charged, they weren't looking for him for another crime or something, he wasn't charged for anything else?

MR KOPEDI: That didn't seem to be the case. He was charged with attacking the police with a hand grenade. They didn't even charge him with ...(indistinct talking simultaneously)

CHAIRPERSON: So one can infer the reason why they were going to the house was to get him, not because he had committed a common law crime.

MR KOPEDI: No, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: But because of his as you say, being an activist.

MR KOPEDI: As he testified, the applicant Mr Ntho, together with one Ephraim Lefiedi, both were people who had just returned from exile and they had undergone military training.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, while you're there, could you spell Lefiedi?

MR KOPEDI: Lefiedi is spelled L-E-F-I-E-D-I. They had just returned from exile. It also appears from the evidence given by the applicant, that there were two other gentlemen in the house who had not returned from exile, but who were their peers and who were also in possession of hand grenades, which he stated they used to defend themselves. I would assume the police had information as to this group and perhaps as to their hiding place and that is basically why the police raided the house.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Kopedi, I've got this difficulty. If he didn't know the intruders were police, he threw the hand grenade at people he didn't recognise or didn't know. How could we then say that he had a political objective?

MR KOPEDI: I believe I asked him that question while he was giving evidence and I think the answer was that and it was some kind of a build-up in that initially for him to have taken the steps to hide at this house, there has been constant harassment by the people he cannot define or describe, people he did not know. He assumed that his political background is the source of his harassment and from his evidence, it is clear that him and these other gentlemen were also in hiding, they had not just gone to visit at this house and he gave the reasons being that this other person, I think it was Lefiedi, had also received some harassment and questions, people in cars were looking for him to kill him and according to them, their only crime, if that's a crime, was that they were members of the ANC, they had undergone military training and so any attack that comes to them at this hiding place, it's my submission, would be an attack which is a politically motivated attack and therefore the defence ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: But at that stage the ANC was unbanned.

MR KOPEDI: Indeed the ANC was banned, but ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: No, they were unbanned, disbanned.

MR KOPEDI: It was unbanned on the 24th of January, but the hostilities, the fights amongst people in the townships was still going on.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes but he himself, his evidence is that he didn't realise that there was a lot of fighting going on because in his vicinity, on coming back in December up to the 22nd of January, he didn't realise what the political situation was.

MR KOPEDI: I think his answer was that he didn't see much, but not that he didn't realise what the political situation was and when he was asked the question why did he go to Mrs Radebe's house, his answer was that - if I may check - his answer was that he went to this house because he had received several threats and that he was being harassed since returning from exile. He was not being harassed for anything, according to him, other than his political standing.

ADV SIGODI: How did he know that?

MR KOPEDI: That's what ...(intervention)

ADV SIGODI: Because he never met the people who came to his home?

CHAIRPERSON: I think what my understanding is, he had only been in the country a month and he wasn't charged for any common law crime or anything, there was no other reason for people to come for him.

MR KOPEDI: Yes, I think he gave evidence that before leaving the country, he had undergone numerous arrests and harassments and he left the country and his evidence was that when he came back, which was in December, there were these harassments going on at his house and he ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: He only said he was once arrested at the border, he didn't say about arrested on numerous occasions.

MR KOPEDI: Most probably because I was listening to his evidence in Sotho and perhaps both in English, because I seem to remember him saying: "I can't tell how many times I've been arrested" and he went on to say, "there was an instance at the Botswana border and I knew from those time how difficult it was for one to be tortured without hitting back."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think whether he was arrested once or several times prior to his returning doesn't carry much.

MR KOPEDI: No it doesn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Because it's more, what I gathered from his evidence, more the fact that he had recently returned from Tanzania.

MR KOPEDI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That he thought that he was being harassed.

MR KOPEDI: That's right. He has not given evidence that concretely proves that, or shows that he was being harassed and for what, he just told you that he believed he was being harassed for being, you know, what he was, for being a political activist.

JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(mike not on) Let's assume that, but then he had to, to protect himself in self-defence. There was not political objective, to further the objectives of a political party for instance.

MR KOPEDI: I believe it depends from which side one looks at it. If we are subjective about the matter at the moment, from his point of view, he believes that he needs to go to Mrs Radebe's house to hide and the reason is simply because he is being harassed for his political standing and his political associations, being a member of the ANC, that's where he moves from. Now any attack on him, it's an attack on him, not as a person, but as a political activist and my submission is therefore that the defence thereof, should be viewed politically in that he would not have been in that position had it not been his political standing. All the people who were in this house who were being attacked by these unknown people who turn out to be police, all of them are political activists of some sort. Some have undergone training, some seem to have been locally trained people with ammunition on them, but I submit that his attack on the police, being a defensive attack, was solely intended to defend his comrades who were all together there, all of them went to this house for one reason, to hide from certain forces which were attacking or harassing them politically or for being political activists. That is all I wish to say, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kopedi. Ms Lockhat, do you have any submissions?

MS LOCKHAT: Just a few Chairperson.

MS LOCKHAT IN ARGUMENT: I do concur with my learned colleague on a number of issues and the fact that, I don't think we should look at this incident so isolated, we have to take into account the applicant's political background and that he was an MK soldier. We also know that it is common cause that MKs used to go into safe-houses and move away from their own homes and that's exactly what this applicant did. He went to Mrs Radebe's house as a safe-house, he says, with these other comrades.

We have to also look at the time when this incident took place. It was early in the morning and it was common practice for the police in those days, to enter people's homes very, very early in the morning and aggressively, so we can also say that the applicant stated that he was harassed by people, but he also went further. He was not a very sophisticated witness, I must add, but he also went on further, but not, he didn't elaborate much but he also said that the police were looking for him.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes and he did say that one of the reports he got from his home was that the police were coming to arrest him.

MS LOCKHAT: That is correct, Chairperson, so we should look at this incident more in a holistic and not an isolated event and also not, as I said it's common practice for the police to use these methods in those days and his reactions was, with the hand grenade, we also shouldn't look at it isolated, that he didn't know who the people were. I think they could have, in that kind of situation, assumed that this was going to be an attack on them, especially if it was an aggressive attack and people were already in the house and he reacted in that fashion and it's also common cause that MKs did also carry arms and ammunition on them to protect themselves, such as hand grenades.

We must also look at the fact that this applicant has already served his sentence. He's out on parole at the moment. He serve 4 years prison sentence. So my submission Chairperson is just to have a more holistic look at the applicant's situation at that point in time and leave the decision in the Committee's hands. Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kopedi, I take it you will not be attacking Ms Lockhat's argument at all?

MR KOPEDI: Not at all. It has been very helpful, I must say, thank you Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well reserve our decision in this matter. Thank you Mr Kopedi, Ms Lockhat. Are you ready to go on with the next matter or should we take the tea adjournment at this stage?

MS LOCKHAT: Can we just adjourn at this stage, please Chairperson. I want to just see if one of the applicants are here already, one of Mr Kopedi's clients. Thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: What we'll do is we'll take the short tea adjournment at this stage. If you can let us know when you're ready to proceed.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson.

MATTER: MURDER OF CAIPHUS NDABA AND SIPHO SITHOLE AND ASSAULT ON THOKOZANI MFANISENI AND ARSON ON SPAZA SHOP OF MR ZWANE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I'm told we are now going to commence with the application of Mr Peter Luja Mbala. Mr Richard are you appearing for Mr Mbala?

MR RICHARD: I am Chair, I appear.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MS LOCKHAT: Lyn Lockhat appearing on behalf of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Chairperson, just for the record, all the victims, we have been trying to notify all the victims. We put an advert in the local newspaper, as well as broadcast on the radio in this incident, Chairperson and no one has come forward to date.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. I call the applicant and he will be sworn.

PETER LUJA MBALA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair.

EXAMINATION BY MR RICHARD: Mr Mbala, in and during April 1994, where did you live?

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbala, when you speak you must push the button so that the light comes on.

MR MBALA: Okay

MR RICHARD: Alright, I'll repeat the question. Mr Mbala, in April 1994, where did you live?

MR MBALA: Well, I resided in Nswalede, this is a squatter camp and at the time it was referred to as Power Park.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Richard, before you proceed. Mr Mbala, whereabouts is that? Which town is it ...(end of tape)

MR MBALA: It just was Orlando Garage.

MR RICHARD: Now in Power Park, who lived there? Did they belong to the ANC or the IFP?

MR MBALA: It was predominantly ANC area.

MR RICHARD: Now was everyone ANC or was 10 or 20% IFP?

MR MBALA: Well, the first time we knew about the IFP people was on the 28th of March, who were residing there because they were coming from a rally in town at the time. That was when some of them were shot at the Shell House incident, that's when we realised about their presence there in the area, the IFP people that is.

MR RICHARD: Now were you a member of the ANC?

MR MBALA: Yes.

MR RICHARD: When did you join the ANC?

MR MBALA: It was in 1990.

MR RICHARD: 1990. Now what made you join the ANC?

MR MBALA: Well I like it. I liked ANC it was dear to me.

MR RICHARD: Now, did you ever belong to the Self Defence Units, the SDUs?

MR MBALA: Yes, I was.

MR RICHARD: When did you join them?

MR MBALA: In 1992.

MR RICHARD: How did you come to join them? What did you do to join them?

MR MBALA: It is because ...(indistinct) that our people were being destroyed and killed, now it was one way of defending the community, or our people.

MR RICHARD: Now we're talking about 1990, not 1994, what attacks had happened on your people that you had to defend yourselves?

JUDGE DE JAGER: I think it's common cause that during that period we had almost a war between the IFP and the ANC, so I think you could carry on, I think you could accept that we've got that knowledge.

MR RICHARD: Thank you. Now, on the evening in question, that's the 9th of April, where were you? 1994.

MR MBALA: I was in a patrol.

MR RICHARD: Now who else was on patrol with you?

MR MBALA: Thofolias ...(indistinct) Cala, Mgabane and Madidwa and Myega. Well the other ones I knew them with their ...(indistinct) names.

MR RICHARD: Now on this patrol, what were you doing? Were you going from house to house or were you stopping cars?

MR MBALA: May you please repeat your question?

MR RICHARD: On the night of the 8th to 9th April 1994, what were you doing while you were patrolling, were you going from house to house, or were you stopping pedestrians?

MR MBALA: It was because we had already heard and some people of IFP had already been identified, now we deemed it fit for us to - as we had already identified them on the 28th there in the area in the squatter camp, now we decided that we'll go on a patrol and look for them and we went out to look for them and we were wanting to find out as to where their whereabouts are, as to where they were.

MR RICHARD: And how did you do that?

MR MBALA: We went to the houses that we suspected that perhaps the occupants could be the IFP people. We went into such houses and wanted to establish if they will attend such meetings of IFP and so on. This is what basically we would do and as we were inquiring from other people as to if they knew or they had information of such and one person told us that we should go to a certain place, Mr Zwane's place, and that's where we could locate some of them and we went there indeed.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Mbala. Whose place was that? You just mentioned the name, what was the name?

MR MBALA: Mr Zwane.

CHAIRPERSON: Approximately how many of you were on this patrol? You've mentioned a few names but how many of you were there that made up this patrol?

MR MBALA: We were about 7, well maybe to 14 and we will collect others, so we will increase in number, the group was increasing.

CHAIRPERSON: You collected others, the further you patrolled the more people joined and so the group got bigger and bigger as you went on?

MR MBALA: Yes. You see at the time that was when we'd already heard and we wanted to identify these people, this is why we're getting now house to house to locate such people.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair. Now once you found an IFP member, what would you do with an IFP member?

MR MBALA: Well when we got there, we asked them if they were, which organisation did they belong to because they were not part of our patrol group and we asked them why is it that they did not join the patrol that we're on and they said- we could not tell as to whether - they were quite evasive in their answer and that is when we started the assault. I slapped him and he left to the other room and the other colleagues shot and I pushed the other one out. There was that commotion that was intensifying.

MR RICHARD: And who was your other colleague?

MR MBALA: Mgabane.

MR RICHARD: And was he the Commander of the SDU unit?

MR MBALA: Yes, indeed he was.

MR RICHARD: Now, this altercation developed at the house of Mr Zwane. What did Mr Umgabane do?

MR MBALA: Mgabane you mean?

MR RICHARD: Yes.

MR MBALA: After he had shot at them, we left the house and went on. After quite a distance we gathered again. Some of our group members left and we went to our various rooms and later on we convened as a group of the SDUs and we asked one another and I asked if he had taken the cartridges because that could give some light to the police and may serve as something that could pin us down and we tried to go back to see if we can not take the other cartridges to destroy the evidence and we tried to do that and around that place there was this big 25L drum and it was filled with paraffin because there was a workshop around and I kicked it towards the house, to the direction of the house and the paraffin spilled all over and I set the area alight and we left immediately thereafter.

MR RICHARD: Now when you talk about Mr Zwane's house, was there a spaza shop at the place?

MR MBALA: It's a tuck shop, spaza shop in our language.

MR RICHARD: Yes. Now what else do you know about what went on at Mr Zwane's house?

MR MBALA: The one that I was aware of, or something that I was aware of?

MR RICHARD: What had you been told?

MR MBALA: Well I was told that Zwane will take a few people from the hostel and keep them in his house and the people who were hostel dwellers were known to be IFP and we always had this misunderstanding between us and them and he will harbour such people in his house, that's how much I knew about him and what led us to go to that house was that knowledge we had to our understanding.

MR RICHARD: Did you ever get told that meetings were planned at his house?

MR MBALA: Yes, something, some rumour or something to that effect was also being said, although I never witnessed one, but something towards that extent was.

MR RICHARD: What was the effect of the rumour?

MR MBALA: Well, one thing that was being said about Zwane was that he would take the people from hostel to his house and keep them there.

MR RICHARD: Than you. Now, I asked a question earlier. When you went on these patrols, I'm not talking about Mr Zwane's house, I'm talking about the general situation, you went from door to door and you were looking to find out who was IFP and who was ANC, now what was the plan as to what you would do when you found an IFP member? What would you do with him?

MR MBALA: Well, because of the situation that prevailed at the time, we also, our spirit - we were quite alert about such things and we were quite active and we wanted to locate such people and we were also quite under influence, so to speak.

CHAIRPERSON: But if you did locate an IFP person, what would you have done to him? When I say you, I mean your patrol?

MR MBALA: Well, I was not the one to give out orders or instructions to that effect, but we will first one to establish if he was in a fighting spirit or a fighting mood and then that will give us direction as to how and what to do.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you regard them as your enemies and would you kill them?

MR MBALA: Well quite clearly yes, because at the time we were highly upset and angry at them because they were also attacking and killing a number of us.

MR RICHARD: Now the Commander of your unit, Mr Mgabane, where is he now?

MR MBALA: Well I heard after I'd been in prison that he has since died in 1996.

MR RICHARD: Now, what was it that you hoped to achieve by finding IFP members and possibly killing them?

MR MBALA: Well, there was nothing to achieve as such, but the main idea here or the main objective was to protect the community, not that there was something that we intended to benefit or achieve.

MR RICHARD: And what political advantage would you hope to achieve?

MR MBALA: Well, there was an election that was coming soon, so we hoped to gain. Well, what is your question exactly?

MR MBALA: What was your political motive in this situation?

MR MBALA: Well, the country.

MR RICHARD: Let me try it this way round. How would the ANC benefit by what you were doing?

MR MBALA: You mean by what we are doing?

MR RICHARD: By what you were doing on your patrols?

MR MBALA: Well our acts were mainly to protect the community, not that there was something to benefit, but to protect and defend the people.

MR RICHARD: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: Yes, thank you Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: Mr Mbala, did you patrol the area every night?

MR MBALA: Yes, we were patrolling the are quite often but some times we will exchange, a group of us will go this night and the following night or the next time it will be a different group of people, so we'll exchange shifts, so to speak. The others will take on the 12 o'clock midnight shift and go and come back, the others will relieve them. During the course of the day, the same thing will go on.

MS LOCKHAT: Is it correct that Mr Zwane, certain members in his house at the spaza shop like Mr Ndaba that was killed and Mr Sithole, also had to conduct these patrols with you people, is that correct?

MR MBALA: Well, please repeat your question.

MS LOCKHAT: Mr Zwane had a spaza shop and people like Mr Ndaba, the person who was killed, was also tasked with patrolling the area, is that correct?

MR MBALA: You mean Ndaba? I never saw Ndaba in any of the patrols we conducted, even Zwane himself, I never saw him.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry, could I just find out, you had the ANC people in the SDU units who were patrolling the area, is that correct?

MR MBALA: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: And if there were IFP people living in that area, would they refuse to patrol?

MR MBALA: There wasn't that understanding between us and them, there was no way they could join us in the patrol, because they did not form part of us and we did not share same sentiments with them.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes and so if people refused to patrol with you, you could realise they are not sympathetic to the ANC?

MR MBALA: Yes, we will sit down and discuss about such people, as to what could be done to them, or should be done to them and quite a great number of the community also would have an input in such meetings and that's where decisions would be taken, from that general meeting.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat.

MS LOCKHAT: When you got to Mr Zwane's house, there were people that were not part and said they didn't want to form part of the patrol, is that right?

MR MBALA: Well, there in the house, at Zwane's house.

CHAIRPERSON: What Ms Lockhat is asking you, when you got to Zwane's house, were there people there who indicated that they did not want to participate in the patrol?

MR MBALA: Well, I hear the question, but I don't quite follow it. I don't quite understand. Please repeat it again.

CHAIRPERSON: When you got to Zwane's place, did you find people there who gave you, that is the members of the patrol, the impression that they did not want to join the patrol?

MR MBALA: Yes, quite clearly.

MS LOCKHAT: And then did you, the two deceased, that is Mr Ndaba and Sithole, did you and you other comrade Monde, then start slapping them and ask them you know, "Why didn't you want to participate in the patrol?", or did you think they were IFP supporters? Am I right?

MR MBALA: Well, we'd already heard that they were IFP people and we went there with this kind of information and we asked them a few questions and they wanted to leave us alone as we were talking to them. They wanted to run away.

MS LOCKHAT: So who informed you that they were IFP sympathisers?

MR MBALA: Well I heard that from the patrol, after I'd already seen them one day as the hostel dwellers were leaving, going there to that house, I identified them as part of the group and before all these things, they used to reside also in the area not in the hostel, so I quite knew them, so after I heard during the patrol about them, that confirmed to me that this is what I once saw earlier on, so it just fell in line.

MS LOCKHAT: And who gave you the instructions to start slapping the two deceased persons?

MR MBALA: You mean, who gave me instructions to slap them or to kill them? What exactly is your question?

CHAIRPERSON: The question was to slap them.

MR MBALA: Well that came from me, no one furnished that kind of order to me, that's how I thought I will stop him from running away as they were attempting to.

MS LOCKHAT: And who was our Commander? Who was in charge of that patrol session of yours, of that unit?

MR MBALA: It was Mgabane.

MS LOCKHAT: And did Mr Mgabane shoot the two deceased persons?

MR MBALA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Mbala, if you could just describe that. Did he shoot them execution style, or were they running away? If you could just describe the actual shooting of the two deceased persons.

MR MBALA: The first one attempted to run away and he shot them as he was attempting to go out through the window and the second one was standing and when I heard the gun shot, I did not know who was shooting and I pushed the other and I wanted him to be the one who will sustain the shots first and when I discovered that it was Mgabane shooting and he shot even the one I had as well.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat.

MS LOCKHAT: Did you have a firearm on your person?

MR MBALA: Yes, I had a firearm and a spear in my possession.

MS LOCKHAT: And you did not use that firearm, is that correct?

MR MBALA: No, I did not use it.

MS LOCKHAT: What happened to your firearm after your arrest?

MR MBALA: There was one Nkodile Fumendlini, that we were arrested together and our cases were combined as to relating to the incident of the 28th and he was turned into State witness, that's where we kept the firearms and that's where we were taken by the police and the firearms as well were taken by the police from the same place on that particular day.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard, do you have any re-examination?

MR RICHARD: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Judge de Jager, do you have any questions?

JUDGE DE JAGER: But you used your spear, didn't you?

MR MBALA: Well I did use it. When I was pushing him after I heard the gunshot, I pushed him with the spear and he was torn and sustained injuries on the chest.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't you stab him in the throat with this assegai?

MR MBALA: Yes, I did, although I don't know where exactly, which part in his body did I get, but I know for a fact that I did push him with this spear.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You see in your statement that you made to the TRC in answering the questions on page 11.

CHAIRPERSON: It's the second last paragraph on page 11.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You stated:

CHAIRPERSON: What do you say to that?

MR MBALA: Yes, it is like that, or it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what's happened to that person you stabbed?

MR MBALA: I don't know what happened to him.

CHAIRPERSON: At your trial, were you charged in respect of that stabbing?

MR MBALA: You mean at the trial?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that was the question. At the trial were you charged in respect of that? Was that one of the charges as your trial, the stabbing of this person in the throat?

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, if I can be of assistance.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. He was just charged with ...(intervention)

MR MBALA: I don't quite remember.

MS LOCKHAT: Two kinds of murder, the two deceased and then one of the robbery, but he was acquitted on the robbery charge and then found guilty of two charges of murder.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Lockhat, So I take it then that the person that was injured in the throat or the chest, did not die because I see from the bundle before us the two post mortems of the deceased, both had gun shot wounds to the head. Sorry Judge de Jager.

JUDGE DE JAGER: The man you stabbed, was it that same man you pushed forward and who was shot by Mr Mgabane?

MR MBALA: Yes, he's the very one.

CHAIRPERSON: So he is a deceased as well. Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

ADV SIGODI: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard do you have any questions arising?

MR RICHARD: No further examination.

MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbala, that concludes your testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Richard.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Any further ...?

MR RICHARD: Nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: And I take it ...(indistinct) so that's the end of the evidence. Are you ready to make submissions?

MR RICHARD: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR RICHARD IN ARGUMENT: Chairperson, the matter is straightforward and the facts are clear. The applicant was an ordinary member of a Self Defence Unit at a time where, as Judge de Jager pointed out, there was a mini war going on in that area of the township. I don't believe I need to say much more than to record that the IFP and the ANC did see each other as enemies.

The context of this particular matter is that it took place shortly after the Shell House Massacre at a time when ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And also shortly before the elections, when things were hot.

MR RICHARD: Rather so. And, as has often been argued, the perception, whether it was true or not we do not really need to pursue, is that this Mr Zwane harboured, took care of or supported IFP members from the hostel and indeed when the visit happened on that evening of the 8th, there were two persons who did not participate in the neighbourhood patrol and they were dealt with as enemies and killed.

CHAIRPERSON: I think, at that time you know, just from our experience, Mr Richard, in hearing a number of these matters, I think it can be safely said with regard to both, there was very little tolerance. People were intolerant. Often the behaviour indulged in could not be objectively described as being reasonable. It was often in the heat of the moment, very intolerant because of the prevailing circumstances.

MR RICHARD: My submission is that, taking into account as has been pointed out, a few weeks before the election and a few weeks after Shell House, it wasn't the most rational period or the period where people were coming to the most balanced of decisions.

The real questions is whether the act in itself is proportional to the objectives pursued. In this particular matter it is true that there was a danger of imminent attack, whether it be by the IFP on the ANC or the ANC on the IFP, it makes no matter and taking the perception that the Self Defence Unit might have had at the time, to kill an enemy was probably not disproportionate. There was a political struggle. A struggle between the ANC and the former State, the ANC and the IFP and others and in this situation prevailing, I would say that the various tests listed in Section 20(iii) are met. The motive was not personal gain. The context I've already addressed. The legal and factual nature, well murder is a very serious offence, no matter which way round we go, but in the political context it can be rationalised.

CHAIRPERSON: I think we also have the situation here and it's just come in here and I'm just speaking off the top of the head now, they went there and when they went there, this is what I gather from the applicant's evidence was he didn't know what was going to happen to those people, he wasn't a leader sort of thing and that when they came across an IFP person or a person who was reluctant to patrol, it would depend on the circumstances what would happen to that person, whether he was aggressive etc. etc. So I don't think we must lose sight of the fact also that it was not him who actually pulled the trigger, that when they went there, got there, that it wasn't with the predetermined idea that they are going to massacre those people, that would depend on ...(intervention)

MR RICHARD: I did ask the question, what was your plan as to what you would do?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but that would depend on the circumstances. What I'm saying is, when they were actually on the way to Zwane's house, there wasn't the intention to, necessarily to kill.

MR RICHARD: It's not as if the patrol was a horde out to kill, it hadn't yet formed that intention. The intention in fact was formed by the leader when he pulled the trigger.

CHAIRPERSON: I think this is a sort of factor that also comes into account in the determination of the question of proportionality, the actual role played by the applicant as opposed to Mgabane, who was the leader and took it upon himself to shoot these people.

MR RICHARD: Thank you Chair. Now the role - I don't think I really need labour the point further, but the role of the particular applicant, he was one of a number and that is how I've noted it over here in the group that went out on the patrol. Mgabane, the leader, was with them, obviously giving directions. It was not as if it was the applicant's initiative to either go to that particular place or to kill those particular two persons. His particular act was to use his assegai after the incident had developed. In the heat of the moment, I believe that his act, on the subjective level, was appropriately proportionate.

CHAIRPERSON: If one takes a look at the post mortem report, Mr Richard, I can't recall, I might be wrong, seeing too much about this.

MR RICHARD: The neck ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Small abrasion on right chest wall. It didn't look like that would be a fatal type wound from the post mortem reports.

MR RICHARD: The post mortem reports are clear.

CHAIRPERSON: Here it is, this one, I'm on the second one, page 59.

So it, and then another one on the right neck.

MR RICHARD: If one goes to page 58, the pathologist was quite plain.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the gun shot wounds.

MR RICHARD: And ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I'm just saying, it's not, the neck wound doesn't look like ...(intervention)

MR RICHARD: It doesn't seem to have really contributed to the demise of the deceased and it wasn't a savage or a ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: No, it looks like quite a small wound, yes.

MR RICHARD: And then as has already been said, the proportionality is the particular role that this applicant played on that evening in the incident. It might be that in order to cover their tracks, he was the one that torched the spaza shop, but in the act of murder, which is the act for which he principally applies for amnesty, his participation was no greater or lesser than any part of the patrol, except for the use of his assegai. It so happens that he was identified and caught, but in his evidence before us, it brings me to the next point, he's been perfectly open and candid. He said, to use his words, "That is so."

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR RICHARD: It's not as if he's ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes what does he apply - he only mentions on the form two murders, but in his statement he talks about arson, so ...

MR RICHARD: I have my own particular view of the interpretation of the Act. The arson and the murders were part of, so to speak, the res gestae, they all happened within a very short period.

CHAIRPERSON: The one transaction.

MR RICHARD: And the fact that an applicant, assisted by a cell mate in prison, filled in the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And one can regard the statement as supplementation of the application, but I want to just get it from you. He's applying for two murders, arson, we don't know anything about the gun.

MR RICHARD: It's not an issue ...

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, because it might have been licensed, we don't know.

MR RICHARD: The charge sheet and summary of facts don't make mention of possession of a firearm, so one must assume that the person who turned State evident ...

CHAIRPERSON: It's basically the two murders and the arson?

MR RICHARD: Correct.

MR RICHARD: Chair, I believe on that note I can conclude. I don't think there's anything more. If the Committee would want written heads, I'm happy to.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I don't think we need that. Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: I have no further submissions, thank you Chairperson.

NO ARGUMENT BY MS LOCKHAT

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, we'll reserve our decision in this matter. Mr Richard, thank you. Ms Lockhat thank you. Mr Mbala, that brings your hearing to an end. We'll get our decision out as soon as possible. We realise that you are in prison. Thank you.

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, the next matter on the roll is the five applicants with Mr Brian Kopedi as their legal adviser. Can we just adjourn?

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want us to adjourn, because he'll have to set up ...

MS LOCKHAT: I think we can adjourn. Shall we adjourn until after lunch? Shall we - after lunch, or it depends entirely ...

CHAIRPERSON: Can we adjourn till - and then start again at half-past one, because I see it's half-past twelve, so we'll take an early lunch and make up the time by starting earlier.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. We now come to the end of this particular hearing. We'll be starting with ...(indistinct - talking simultaneously) Because it's half-past twelve now, we've decided to take a lunch adjournment now and we'll start at half-past one with the next matter.

MS LOCKHAT: The next amnesty applicant will be Linda Mntambo and four others.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Lockhat. Mr Kopedi, are you acting for all the applicants in this matter?

MR KOPEDI: That is correct, Chairperson. My name is Brian Kopedi, I'm appearing on behalf of all five applicants in this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kopedi. How are we going to - in which order are they going to be heard?

MR KOPEDI: Chairperson, we will first call Andrew Mathabathe, no sorry, we will call Linda Mntambo first who is number 4 on the list.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KOPEDI: After Linda we will call Sandile Ndlungwane who'll be the second one. Thereafter we will call Andrew Mathabathe, that's the third one. Then George Mogapi as the fourth one and Rodney Sazi Ndlovu as the fifth one.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------LINDA PRECIOUS MNTAMBO: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kopedi.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you kindly assist us? We've got different incidents here in all, I think, 4 incidents. Could you just tell us, Mr Mntambo is applying for amnesty in connection with which incidents?

MR KOPEDI: My Lord, that was my immediate intention.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Thank you.

MR KOPEDI: If I could take you through the instances and who is involved in what instance and I have used the page 1 of the bundle of documents as a point of reference to which we will all be acquainted to. There's an incident marked 1, the ...(indistinct) Monamodi incident on the page 1 where they talk about victims. Yes on the Saki Monamodi incident, the people involved in this matter would be Linda Mntambo, George Mogapi, Sandile Ndlungwane and Jabu Mbatha. May I mention at this stage that this Jabu Mbatha had applied for amnesty and that his application has been denied, I believe on the basis that there hasn't been any political motivation.

The second incident would be the one attack on Ms Sithole, an attack on her house actually. The persons involved would be Linda Mntambo, George Mogapi, Sandile Ndlungwane and Jabu Mbatha again.

The third incident, I am instructed that in fact this refers to a Doctor Matsie not Matsike.

CHAIRPERSON: How would you spell that?

MR KOPEDI: Matsie would be spelled M-A-T-S-I-E. Yes and the people involved in this incident would be the same four, Linda Mntambo, George Mogapi, Sandile Ndlungwane and Jabo Mbatha.

The fourth incident, we have here Mr Shumane. My instructions are that it's actually S-H-O-M-A-N-E and the people who were involved in this operation would be Linda Mntambo, George Mogapi, Sandile Ndlungwane and on this Mr Shomane's matter, and this will become clear with evidence, there are actually two incidents, not one. May I explain that the one incident was direct directly at Mr Shomane, the other incident, although this took place at Mr Shomane's house, was directed at a tenant of Mr Shomane, whose name we do not know and the people involved in this operation on the tenant would be Linda Mntambo, Andrew Mathabathe and Sazi Ndlovu, the fifth applicant. There is another incident which would be a robbery on Fidelity Guards. On page 1 we have victims listed as H C Janse van Vuuren and P Viljoen. We believe these two are linked to the one operation being the robbery and the people involved in this one was Linda Mntambo, George Mogapi, Andrew Mathabathe and Sazi Ndlovu. There's a seventh incident, it's referred to as unidentified traffic officers and I think it should have referred to an unidentified traffic officer who was attacked and the people involved in this were Linda Mntambo and Jabo Mbatha, only two.

Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, there are other instances which appear on the application forms that are not listed here and perhaps because there are no victims and we're talking about a list of victims. I have put an 8th item there and referred to it as a limpet mine explosion at Turfontein, at the sports ground in Turfontein. This occurred during 1988 and the person involved here was Linda Mntabmo on his own. No one was injured, to our knowledge no property was damaged but there was a limpet mine placed and detonated.

I have a ninth which refers to an escape from lawful custody and this escape included the stabbing of a police officer and Linda Mntambo was involved, it's he who escaped and who stabbed the police officer. Those are about the offences for which these applicants come before you and perhaps before I lead ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE DE JAGER: ... the one directed at the tenant, it was Linda, Andrew and ... ?

MR KOPEDI: Sazi Ndlovu.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sazi.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mbatha.

MR KOPEDI: Yes. What I wanted to go to now was to ...(intervention)

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson just before Mr Kopedi continues, I just want to place on record that I represent Mr Monamodi, one of the victims in the incident, Chairperson and my instructions are that we are to oppose that particular incident in relation to himself.

CHAIRPERSON: Which incident will that be of the listed ones?

MS LOCKHAT: That is the attack on Mr Monamodi, that's the first incident.

CHAIRPERSON: The first one, yes.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson.

MR KOPEDI: What I wanted to go to next, Chairperson, was to ask for an amendment to the application form of Sandile Ndlungwane. The application for amendment is to include, his application starts on page 9 of the bundle of documents Chairperson. The application I seek to make now is to include an offence of having possessed a Makarov pistol during 1992 for which he was arrested and sentenced.

CHAIRPERSON: Does that also include ammunition?

MR KOPEDI: Yes, it includes ammunition, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: So you make an application to amend Mr Ndlungwane's application by inserting a further, call it an incident, of unlawful possession of a Makarov pistol and ammunition during 1992.

MR KOPEDI: 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any objection to that Ms Lockhat?

MS LOCKHAT: No objection, Chairperson.

JUDGE DE JAGER: This is referred to, no the hand grenade is referred to on page 16, is that correct?

MR KOPEDI: I'm not with you My Lord.

JUDGE DE JAGER: On page 16 you've got the typed version and he says, he's referring to a hand grenade that's been hurled, ...(indistinct - mike not on)

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE DE JAGER: He's also referring to a hand grenade thrown at Zondi's house.

MR KOPEDI: Yes. All these incidents that appear here and perhaps it's a question of naming them. Instances, for instance I believe that the hand grenade hurled through a dining room window at Zondi in Soweto, this was at Mr Monamodi's house. The hand grenade in Moroka, this would be at another victim's house, but he has not, in his application form or even in the further particulars, referred to this amendment which we seek to make now.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Kopedi. We'll grant the amendment and by adding in the further offence or offences namely unlawful possession of Makarov pistol and ammunition during 1992.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Having said all that I believe we are ready to proceed and with leave of the Committee I would like to proceed with Mr Mntambo.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, he has been sworn in so you can go straight into your questioning.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR KOPEDI: Mr Mntambo, is it correct that you are co-applicant in this hearing?

MR MNTAMBO: That is correct.

MR KOPEDI: Now you have applied for various incidents or instances to which we have been talking to this Honourable Committee about. Now my question to you is, during the commission of all these incidents, where you a member of a political organisation?

MR MNTAMBO: Yes, I was.

MR KOPEDI: Which political organisation?

MR MNTAMBO: The African National Congress.

MR KOPEDI: When did you join the ANC?

MR MNTAMBO: In 1982.

MR KOPEDI: Whereabouts?

MR MNTAMBO: In Soweto, I was still a pupil attending school at the time.

MR KOPEDI: Now during your involvement with the ANC whilst you were a member, did you belong to a unit or a cell?

MR MNTAMBO: I was a member of a cell in 1988.

MR KOPEDI: From 1988. Would you tell this Honourable Committee who were the other members of your cell and their standing within the cell in terms of lines of command?

MR MNTAMBO: The Commander of our cell was Simon ...(indistinct) Modise. Second in command was Monde, that was the only name that I knew and we also called him Bless. Thereafter myself.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, who was second in command, I missed the name.

MR MNTAMBO: Monde, but we also called him Bless. Thereafter it was myself, Linda Precious Mntambo. Below me was Andrew Mathabathe. Thereafter it would be Sandile Ndlungwane and George Mogapi and well as Jabu Mbatha and Vusi Mshlekwa as well as Ronnie Sazi Ndlovu. Those were the people who comprised the cell.

MR KOPEDI: Now can we go to the incidents ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Just before you proceed Mr Kopedi, when you say you were a member of a cell, were you a member of MK, was that an MK cell?

MR MNTAMBO: Yes, it was an MK cell.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Shall we go into the operations? This unit that you belonged to, in which area did it operate?

MR MNTAMBO: Around the Soweto, Johannesburg areas.

MR KOPEDI: And who did you report to you know, after having carried out operations, who would you report to?

MR KOPEDI: It was Monde.

MR KOPEDI: The second in command?

MR MNTAMBO: That's correct.

MR KOPEDI: Okay. Now let's go to the incident involving Mr Monamodi. Do you recall when this was?

MR MNTAMBO: Although I cannot be certain of the dates, it was in 1988.

MR KOPEDI: Will you tell this Honourable Committee what happened then and perhaps that by explaining why it happened?

MR MNTAMBO: Mr Monamodi's house is at Zondi. A decision was taken that a grenade should be thrown into his home, that was after discussions with unit members. That information was given to Mr Monde who gave the go-ahead for the operation. We surveyed the house and we discovered that Mr Monamodi lived alone with his wife, Sandile Ndlungwane and George Mogapi, who was a driver, myself and Jabo were on foot.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed Mr Mntambo, Mr Kopedi asked you why, now you've told us you made a decision to attack the house and you did recce work, why was the decision made to attack the house? What was the reason? Why choose upon Mr Monamodi as a victim?

MR MNTAMBO: Okay. From the information that we received, I understood Mr Monamodi to be in employer structures whose task was to make sure that the SAMWO strike that was on at the time, does not succeed. The decision was taken because Mr Monamodi was on the management and he was an influential person and he tried whatever means that the strike that was on in 1988, a strike by SAMWO, that the strike does not succeed, that decision was then taken.

CHAIRPERSON: SAMWO is that the South African Municipal Workers Organisation?

MR MNTAMBO: Yes.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I think you said he was on the management, the management of?

MR MNTAMBO: He was an employee of UBC but it was a civic organisation that was involved with people who worked in local government and municipalities.

MR KOPEDI: Chairperson, if one may be of assistance, the UBC used to be known as the Urban Bantu or Black Council in Soweto.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Kopedi.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson. I believe you've dealt with the why part, why him. Please go on and explain what happened.

MR MNTAMBO: The decision was then taken on the basis of the reasons I've outlined above and as I've already explained, we received information which we passed on to Monde. Monde then gave us the go-ahead to proceed with the operation to intimidate Mr Monamodi, for him to cease his actions if he was indeed doing what he was alleged to be doing. Therefore myself and Jabu went on the operation and I'm the person who threw the hand grenade through the window. George and Jabu were further were about 350 metres away and they were in a vehicle. The hand grenade was thrown just after the Monamodis turned off the lights. We were of the impression that they were going to bed at the time. I threw it into the dining room, not in the bedroom and the objective thereof was to intimidate them.

MR KOPEDI: Now after throwing this hand grenade, did you retreat?

MR MNTAMBO: After throwing the grenade we retreated. We got into the vehicle and left.

MR KOPEDI: That's all that happened in as far as your attack on Mr Monamodi's house?

MR MNTAMBO: That's correct.

MR KOPEDI: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, when you say you threw it in the dining room, was the window open or did you just throw it through the window, through the closed - through the glass?

MR MNTAMBO: It was closed.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Shall we move to the second incident, the attack on Ms Sithole. Would you briefly tell this Honourable Committee, perhaps start with the why part, like we just did, why and what happened.

MR MNTAMBO: The reason for the attack is similar to the previous incident. Ms Sithole was a social worker and she was influential in decisions taken by management. She also tried all in her power that the strike does not succeed. What happened was, myself, Sandile and George were present. George and Sandile were in their vehicle and I went to the house and threw in the hand grenade. I threw it just outside the door that I think was the sitting room because I could hear that there were people inside watching TV. Thereafter I fled and got into the vehicle and we left the area. I'd just like to correct something. Ms Sithole was a director.

MR KOPEDI: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry. So you're saying that you threw the grenade outside the door, did you mean for it to land outside the house itself, rather than for it to go inside the house?

MR MNTAMBO: It would have fallen outside on the premises not inside the house, but it was close to the door that led into the sitting room where they were watching TV.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't actually want to injure anybody, you were sending a message by throwing that hand grenade?

MR MNTAMBO: Yes, that was the reason why I threw it outside, to send a message similar to the one sent to Mr Monamodi. It was not an intention of mine to injure or kill anyone.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. We will move to the third incident, the attack on Dr Matsie and perhaps to assist you, who was Dr Matsie?

MR MNTAMBO: He was also one of the people in management structures and he was also influential in decision making and he also made attempts to stop or to make the aspirations of the workers fail, that's why he was also picked up and intimidated. With regards to the operation, myself and Sandile as well as Jabu Mbatha and George Mogapi were involved. Jabu Mbatha and myself went into the house. Jabu was armed with an AK47 rifle and I had a hand grenade in my possession as ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Please go a little bit slower, we're trying to write down what you're saying.

CHAIRPERSON: You said Mbatha had an AK47 and you were also in possession of grenades.

MR MNTAMBO: Yes. I then knocked on the door. A woman, an elderly lady, opened the door and on realising that Jabu was armed, she screamed in fear. A certain then approached from the house and he had a dog with him and he then released the dog and Jabu then shot at that dog. We then closed the door and fled to the car. Our intention of going there was for us to meet with Mr Matsie and discuss with him that he should stop his actions and on realising that we were armed, we had hoped that he would see that we meant business and he would therefore do whatever he could to support the workers' struggle, but we did not get that opportunity to intimidate or even discuss anything with him because of that incident of releasing the dog and subsequently shooting it. We then retreated to the car.

CHAIRPERSON: These three incidents that you've spoken about, how far apart were they from each other? Over what period of time from the first incident to the last of these three that you've spoken about, Mr Monamodi, Ms Sithole and Dr Matsie?

MR MNTAMBO: I cannot recall correctly but they were close to one another because if they had been too far apart the message that we intended to send, would not be felt, therefore they were very close to one another.

CHAIRPERSON: You've said that you wanted to speak with Dr Matsie face to face and tell him to change his ways as it were. Why did you decide on that modus in respect of Dr Matsie and not in respect of the other two persons who threw grenades at their house, why didn't you decide to also go and speak to Ma Sithole or Mr Monamodi?

MR MNTAMBO: With regards to the two incidents where we threw hand grenades, that was a decision that had been taken to throw these hand grenades. At the time our unit was running short of arms and ammunition, therefore to throw hand grenades for the sake of intimidating people all the time, would deplete our supply, therefore we decided on that occasion that we would discuss this matter with him, without having to throw any hand grenades.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Kopedi.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Let's move to the other incident, the one involving Mr Shomane and let's start with him and not the tenant. Why? Why him? Who was Mr Shomane, to your knowledge?

MR MNTAMBO: Mr Shomane was a policeman based at Protea police station. He resided at Dube. The general mandate of the ANC was that the police were our enemies and were legitimate targets. A decision was then taken to attack Mr Shomane, to attack and kill him because he was a policeman and his residing at Dube made him a messenger. He could supply information and we were also in danger of us being detected.

MR KOPEDI: What was done to him?

MR MNTAMBO: It was myself, Andrew Mathabathe and Sazi Ndlovu who carried out the operation. We went into his yard. I threw a stone through the window with the intention of getting him out of the house so that we would then be able to shoot him, but this did not happen. We waited outside until we had to leave. That is what happened.

MR KOPEDI: So other than breaking the window, nothing happened to him as a person? No attack was done, no grenade was thrown, only the window was broken?

MR MNTAMBO: Yes, that's the only thing that happened. I threw that stone. I did not throw any grenade or carry out any other attack.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he in the house at the time?

MR MNTAMBO: Yes he was.

MR KOPEDI: Let's move to ...(intervention).

JUDGE DE JAGER: Mr Kopedi just before you step off this one, wasn't there a plan or a conspiracy to kill him? Wasn't it more than only the throwing of the stone?

MR MNTAMBO: As I've already mentioned before, when we attack a place we do this after discussions and we would also share this information with our Commander Bless, therefore we had planned to kill him because he was a policeman.

MR KOPEDI: Now the second incident on Mr Shomane's house, the one that involves his tenant. Will you tell this Honourable Committee who this tenant was, that is to you? Did you know this tenant? Do you have a name?

MR MNTAMBO: From the information that we received about people who had been arrested and released, they informed us that this person was a policeman with the Security Branch. We followed this information and indeed established the truth about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you proceed, sorry Mr Kopedi to keep interrupting you. When you say that this person was Mr Shomane's tenant, was he a lodger staying in the house at the same time as Mr Shomane, or did Mr Shomane, after the attack upon his house when you threw the stone, leave the premises and rent the place out to this other person who became the sole occupant maybe with his family of the house to the exclusion of Mr Shomane, or did they live there together?

MR MNTAMBO: He was a lodger. Mr Shomane did not leave his house.

MR KOPEDI: How soon after the throwing of the brick at Mr Shomane's house did you decide to go for this other person, the lodger?

MR MNTAMBO: I cannot really recall when, I do not remember whether it was after one month or slightly less.

MR KOPEDI: You've just told this Honourable Committee that you had information that this person was a Security, a Special Branch of Security Branch member and then what did you decide to do?

MR MNTAMBO: A decision was taken to kill this person, because at the time the Security Branch was directly involved in our activities, they were the ones who were directly involved with the arrest of activists.

MR KOPEDI: What happened? What did you do to this person?

MR MNTAMBO: What happened was, I was with Sandile and George. George remained in the vehicle. We witnessed this Security Branch police parking his car and we alighted from our vehicle, approached him. As he had finished opening the gates and he was going back to his car, we approached and shot at him. Thereafter we returned to the car and left.

MR KOPEDI: You don't know if any, or do you know if any shot hit him?

MR MNTAMBO: I am certain that he was shot because I was close to him.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mntambo, could you indicate a distance more or less in this room?

MR MNTAMBO: About two metres.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you see him fall or anything like that, or did you just assume you must have hit him because you were so close to him when you shot?

MR MNTAMBO: I assumed that he must have been hit because I was close to him because after shooting we immediately retreated, we returned to the vehicle and fled. I did not see whether he fell or not.

MR KOPEDI: What time of the day was it, if you recall?

MR MNTAMBO: It was in the afternoon, maybe about 6 p.m. or after 6.

CHAIRPERSON: How many shots did you fire?

MR MNTAMBO: I cannot say, because I pulled the trigger once, it was on short burst mode, I can maybe estimate that there were two shots that were fired.

CHAIRPERSON: You had an AK47 is that correct?

MR MNTAMBO: That's correct.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson. So do you know if this person was killed or injured for a fact?

MR MNTAMBO: On my arrest I received information that the person died.

MR KOPEDI: Okay. So after shooting this person, you went to the get-away car and you fled, is that correct?

MR MNTAMBO: That's correct.

MR KOPEDI: Okay. Chairperson I would like to move to the next incident and perhaps before I go into it, with leave of this Committee I would like to lead him through other instances before the robbery, where he was involved. Mr Mntambo, you stated in your application form that you are also applying for a limpet mine explosion at Turfontein, is that correct?

MR MNTAMBO: That is correct.

MR KOPEDI: Could you briefly tell this Honourable Committee what happened then?

MR MNTAMBO: I took a limpet mine, an SPM and proceeded to Turfontein. As usual Monde was aware of that operation and he had given the go-ahead. I then went to ...(indistinct). I planted that mine behind a bar that was on the sports grounds. There was an electric pole thereabouts and I place the mine between the pole and the wall of the bar and after that I left. It exploded after some time and no one was injured, as per plan. The people were on the other side at the grounds and there was no one at the bar area.

CHAIRPERSON: What short of sports club was this Mr Mntambo and why did you particularly select that sports club as a target?

MR MNTAMBO: It was a big complex. There were about three or four sports grounds inside that complex and the complex was surrounded by fence and I went through the main gate. The people who were playing sport were on the other side. The intention of placing that mine was to relay the message that MK did not exist only in the townships but all over South Africa.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this what you would call a propaganda operation?

MR MNTAMBO: That's correct.

MR KOPEDI: And to your knowledge you've stated that no one was injured.

MR MNTAMBO: No.

MR KOPEDI: Now let's go to another incident where you are the only applicant in this matter. At some stage you escaped from the ...(indistinct) police station, is that correct?

MR MNTAMBO: Yes, briefly and very briefly, please take this Honourable Committee through how you escaped.

CHAIRPERSON: Perhaps before, Mr Kopedi, what were you detained there for?

MR MNTAMBO: It was with regards to the incidents I've just outlined, Shomane as well as Mr Shomane's tenant, as well as the one related to Dr Matsie, the Monamodi and the Sithole incidents, as well as the Fidelity Guards and limpet mine explosion incidents. These were the incidents I was detained for.

MR KOPEDI: Please proceed and ...(intervention)

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry and when was it, round about?

MR MNTAMBO: It was on the 31st of May 1989.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Please explain to this Honourable Committee what you did to achieve your escape.

MR MNTAMBO:

MR KOPEDI: Let's move to another incident. ...(indistinct - mike not on).

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR KOPEDI: Let's move to another incident, the incident of the traffic officer. Please take this Committee through what happened to this traffic officer.

MR MNTAMBO:

CHAIRPERSON: Did you have an AK47?

MR MNTAMBO: Yes, we did have one.

CHAIRPERSON: And how many shots again, can you just describe the shooting, your shooting?

MR MNTAMBO: Well I shot when I had already moved backwards, just once did I shoot. One other thing he did, he put down his window. One thing that crossed our minds was that he wanted to go after us and I shot just once and we disappeared from the scene.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson. Do you know what happened to this person? Do you know if he was injured or whether he died? Did you ever hear anything about him?

MR MNTAMBO: One thing I heard after I was arrested, information I gathered from the police was that he has since died. I don't know the truth as to what extent.

MR KOPEDI: Okay, let's move to another incident. The robbery of the Fidelity Guards in Dube. Where was this operation planned, let's start there.

MR MNTAMBO:

MR KOPEDI: Who was Simon Metseng? Just for the sake of clarity on this operation, who was the Simon Metseng?

MR MNTAMBO: Simon Modise Metseng was an overall Commander that gave over to Monde to be the one leading our unit, the members of the unit. He was a fine leader. Metseng now was the one responsible for the training within the country. This is how much I can say or divulge in as far as Metseng is concerned.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, Mr Kopedi. If you could just explain one thing to me. You keep talking about Bless, Monde, being your Commander and giving orders in respect of all these operations, why didn't he do anything himself, other than issue orders? Why didn't he participate in operations himself, or in any of these operations?

MR MNTAMBO: Well what I will say in so far as Monde is concerned about his non-participating in these operations was the fact that he was the one behind of the replenishment of the unit. Now, he also was the one who gave the go-ahead by Metseng to work together with us. The fact that he did not participate in these things, purely boils down to the fact that he was a facilitator but not necessarily on the ground, having to operate such things. He would give us orders and we'll give him back reports or he'll also say he will convey whatever thoughts we have to the senior. He was the one giving out the orders, instructions so to speak and we'll also give him report-back. As you are aware in this day and age, the Commanders are not practically involved on the ground, the people who take the work there on the ground are the foot soldiers. The Commanders decide on such things as information and furnish out the information and things like go-aheads, so in other words he was the brainchild behind all operations which were executed and all the mandates as well, we received from him, Bless, that is.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson. Did any one of you know how much would be found in this robbery?

MR MNTAMBO: No one had an idea or knew.

MR KOPEDI: Okay. Briefly take this Honourable Committee through what happened. Who went there? Did you drive, walk and what happened at the scene?

MR MNTAMBO: Monde had a discussion with me where he explained the need for the operation and also with regards to our situation at the time, he informed me that we should try and rob that Fidelity Guards' vehicle and he would use that money to bribe the policemen who would then release Metseng who was in custody. On his explanation he thought he could do that.

Secondly, I have already touched on the state of bankruptcy experienced by operatives, therefore this money would also assist other cells, for the operatives to be able to go to other neighbouring countries to render their reports, but the most important aspect was that of releasing Metseng.

MR KOPEDI: What happened at the scene? How did you go there?

MR MNTAMBO: It was myself, Andrew Mathabathe, Sazi Ndlovu and George Mogapi. George was the driver, Andrew, myself and Sazi as well as Ronnie Ndlovu were passengers. I had an AK47 rifle and I was the only person who was armed. The others were unarmed. Andrew had a knife in his possession. Sazi was unarmed. We arrived on the scene and parked the vehicle. Sazi had already been dropped off earlier on and Andrew Mathabathe had also been dropped off at a point close to our target. He would be able to communicate with me through the window, to inform me that the guards were about to step out, so that I will carry out the operation, so on arrival, there was just the two of us, myself and George Mogapi.

Two people alighted from the vehicle and went inside and on coming back Andrew signalled to me that they were about to come out. One carried steel trunks and the other carried a firearm. I came out running and I started shooting. The vehicle went around so that it would only come for me after I had completed the mission. These two white men fled and they left the trunks behind, but they also returned fire so there was an exchange of fire as they were fleeing.

Andrew Mathabathe then approached and I then covered him and he retrieved the two trunks and put them in the vehicle. Sazi also approached to assist him. They got into the vehicle and I also did the same and we left. That is how it happened.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

MR KOPEDI: Do you know if anyone died or anyone was injured?

MR MNTAMBO: No one was killed, we would have been informed if that had been the case, but the police informed us that some people did sustain injuries.

MR KOPEDI: After getting into the car and retreating, where did you go to?

MR MNTAMBO: After retreating, we proceeded to Meadowlands, Zone 2. On our arrival we parked the vehicle. That was George Mogapi's old friend's house. It hadn't been in the plan to go there, so we just asked if the person was present. I cannot remember whether the person was indeed at home, but we then realised that I'd also been shot at, I had sustained some injury. George and Andrew then took me to Dr Tshivulu in Meadowlands. On arrival there we discovered that they were just about to close and the doctor examined me and he could not find the bullet although there was a wound. He then suggested that we go to the clinic. We then returned to Zone 2 where we had left Sazi and on our arrival there, we had already discussed with Andrew that he should go somewhere, approach somebody we knew to be a nurse, Hope Tshabalala. Andrew went to this person to inquire as to which private hospitals she knew that we could approach. She then informed him about ...(indistinct) clinic.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Which clinic? The name of the clinic again.

MR MNTAMBO: Glenmed. Andrew and Hope then came to me and they picked me up, took me to the hospital and on our arrival there, I gave them false information and I was admitted. I was operated on and released after some time and returned home.

MR KOPEDI: Do you know what happened to the money, after you were taken to the hospital, do you know what happened to the money?

MR MNTAMBO: Well firstly I think I paid about R4 000 for the clinic. Monde came to see me at the hospital. He had received that information that I was hospitalised from my girlfriend, Nomvula. He then asked me how he could get into contact with Andrew because he is the person who had the money and he requested that I arrange for them to meet. They were then going to meet at a certain park in Dube, so when Andrew came to see me, I informed him that Monde would meet him at such and such a place. They did so and the information that I received at that stage, the money had been given to Monde and Monde gave Andrew R5 000 so that my medical costs would be covered. He further instructed that we should take about R1 000 to take to Hope Tshabalala for the assistance she had rendered. Therefore there was about R4 000 remaining after we had given R1 000 to Hope Tshabalala and that R4 000 was confiscated by the police. I do not know what happened to it, but the rest of the money was given to Monde.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you learn what the haul was, how much money was robbed?

MR MNTAMBO: What I read from the papers was that it was R76 000, that is what I learned from the papers.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson. Now do you think that there is anything that you have left out, not only on this robbery operation but on all the operations which you have just told this Honourable Committee about. Do you think there is anything you have left out?

MR MNTAMBO: I do not think that there's something still outstanding except for the attempts that were made by myself and Andrew, such attempts were not successful. For instance we tried to explode a limpet mine somewhere but we did not go ahead with that operation because we realised the danger to the people, the general public. Another incident involved a Mr Ranaga where I and Andrew booby-trapped a gate so that if he opens the gate, the pin would go off and he would be killed, but that mission was unsuccessful, so there's other things that maybe I did not mention.

MR KOPEDI: But in as far as the operations that happened and where you believed there was damage to property, death or even injury to persons, do you think there's anything that you have left out?

MR MNTAMBO: The only thing I can mention now is that besides the damage to property, the loss of life also happened because of the situation that prevailed. Then to the people who lost their fathers, their relatives, I request forgiveness.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Kopedi, if I could just ...(indistinct) Mr Mntambo, were you trained, did you receive any form of military training? Hand grenades, explosive material, firearms?

MR MNTAMBO: Yes, I did receive military training, that is besides the one provided by Metseng. Metseng provided me with the theoretical part but I did undergo training in Uganda, that is after my escape from prison. Therefore I was trained under the auspices of MK.

MR KOPEDI: Do you believe that you have fully disclosed all the relevant facts to this Honourable Committee, necessary for you to obtain amnesty?

MR MNTAMBO: Yes, I believe that I have told the truth and nothing but the truth.

MR KOPEDI: Did you benefit anything personally in any of these operations? Is there an operation where you benefited personally?

CHAIRPERSON: Materially, that is.

MR KOPEDI: Yes material, financially or otherwise?

MR MNTAMBO: No, I did not gain financially, except for the political objective.

JUDGE DE JAGER: What happened to the balance of the money, the R71 000?

MR MNTAMBO: What happened was on the 27th of January 1989, not long after my discharge from hospital, there was an operation that was undertaken. The money was with Bless and the rest of us were arrested and I do not know what happened to the money thereafter.

MR KOPEDI: Chairperson, that will be the evidence in chief for this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kopedi. Ms Lockhat, do you have any questions you would like to ask the applicant?

MS LOCKHAT: Yes, thank you Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: I just want to go back to the incident of Mr Monamodi. Can you just tell us, where

did you receive the information regarding Mr Monamodi, that he was working for the UBC, that it was just him and his wife and so forth, who gave you this information?

MR MNTAMBO: I received that information from George and Sandile.

MS LOCKHAT: Because Mr Monamodi says that he never worked at UBC. He said that he was a plumber for the Soweto City Council, can you comment on that?

MR MNTAMBO: That is what he says, but the information that I received, the information that we received was that he colluded with the management, particularly in working to the failure of the strike.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just perhaps clear up my ignorance. Soweto City Council and the Urban Black Council or the Urban Bantu Council, I don't know what they were called, were they two separate, completely different things? What was the difference between them? Perhaps I can ask Mr Mntambo whether he knows?

MR MNTAMBO: The UBC was part of the Soweto Council.

CHAIRPERSON: So from yourselves point of view, Mr Mntambo, or the ANC's point of view, was there any distinction between the Soweto City Council and the UBCs, in so far as they constituted targets.

MR MNTAMBO: I mentioned that UBC was part of the Soweto City Council. They worked hand in hand, there was no difference.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, Mr Monamodi has now said that he was a plumber in the employ of the City Council. Can you dispute that or not, or do you dispute that?

MR MNTAMBO: The only information that I had was that Mr Monamodi co-operated with the management in stamping out the strike. He was not on the workers' side, he collaborated with the management and he was also a foreman as far as my knowledge goes.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat.

MS LOCKHAT: In your examination in chief as well you stated that Mr Monamodi was part of management and he was an influential person. My instructions are that he was never part of management and that he, whenever there was a strike, he participated in the strikes, he was never on the side of management and that is my instructions to you. Can you comment on that if ...? You don't have to.

MR MNTAMBO: Yes, I can comment. When I say he worked with management, that is the information I received and that is the information we worked with. The fact that he was a foreman was also transmitted to us. He was a foreman, co-operating with the management and he was against the workers' struggle. There was no reason to just target him for nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry and you say, did you receive this information from George and Sandile?

MR MNTAMBO: That's correct.

MS LOCKHAT: And whose idea was it to throw the hand grenade at Mr Monamodi's house?

MR MNTAMBO: As I mentioned earlier, before such an operation we would not do it without discussing it first. I was informed of this and I passed the information to Monde and he realised that we could attain our political objectives by supporting the workers, that was mobilising their support for the ANC and he gave the go-ahead to carry out the mission, but he instructed that no one should be killed.

MS LOCKHAT: Mr Monamodi says he's got a 15 year old son as well. His son was 15 at the time of the incident and in your examination in chief you said that your information was that it was only him and his wife living there, is that correct?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, ...(intervention).

MS LOCKHAT: I just want to place it on record.

CHAIRPERSON: I think he said it more than once, it was just him and his wife. But are you putting it to him that ...(intervention).

MS LOCKHAT: I'm putting it to him that my instructions are that in fact the information that these comrades had, was incorrect.

CHAIRPERSON: It's put to you, Mr Mntambo, that it wasn't only Mr Monamodi and his wife at the house at the time of the attack, but he also had a 15 year old son, who was in the house at the time. What do you say to that?

MR MNTAMBO: Even if there was such a son, the important thing is that when this incident took place, the son was not there. If by coincidence the son was present when the incident took place, the son would not have been injured because I threw the grenade into the dining room after they had just switched off the lights to go to bed.

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, that's the questions that I have in relation to Mr Monamodi.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, can I just ask one? This strike with the workers, what were the workers striking for?

MR MNTAMBO: It was an industrial dispute regarding the wages. The workers realised that they were not satisfied with their wages, therefore they went on strike.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it a big strike?

MR MNTAMBO: It was a big strike, to such an extent that a decision was taken to support that strike in the way that we did because it did happen that during the times of apartheid, MK operatives did participate to mobilise the support of the workers. For instance, during the strike of the railway workers, limpet mines would be planted at trains, therefore for swelling the number of Cosatu and mobilising support for the ANC we did participate in the strike.

MS LOCKHAT: Can I go on to another incident Chairperson? Do you know where you got weapons from to use in all of these instances? Can you tell us where you got it from and from whom?

MR MNTAMBO: I do not have information as to where Monde received the weapons from. He would give me whatever weapon that he did, but I do not know where he received them or where he got them from.

MS LOCKHAT: Do you know that it was not, I'm going on to the armed robbery now, do you know that it was not part of the policy of the ANC to commit robbery? Can you comment on that?

MR MNTAMBO: As I have stated before, our unit operated under orders.

CHAIRPERSON: I think the question was, do you know that it was ANC policy not to commit robbery? That was the question.

MR MNTAMBO: I did not know that.

MS LOCKHAT: Well I just want to inform you that that was in fact the policy of the ANC and whenever we had written to the ANC asking them whether it was their policy, they always came back to us and informed us that no, indeed it was not so. It was also in the ANC submissions as well, just for your information.

MR MNTAMBO: What I can say is that the ANC knew their policies, but as an operative you would be ordered on what to do and reasons would be furnished that would convince you of the political objective of the situation, therefore when Monde explained that there were tactics that were used to attain the objectives, he informed me that he could not leave South Africa and go to other countries to obtain firearms, therefore I operated under orders.

MS LOCKHAT: I spoke to one of the victims, Mr van Vuuren, early this morning and he said that in the armed robbery incident, someone was standing at the top on the roof of the building, is that true or can you comment on that?

MR MNTAMBO: Please repeat that.

MS LOCKHAT: In the armed robbery incident, he said that, Mr van Vuuren, one of the victims stated that there were four people involved and he said that one of the applicants was standing on the roof of the build, of the Tattersalls and with a weapon as well. Can you comment on that?

MR MNTAMBO: I do not know thereof that you are referring to but there was not such, I was the only person who was armed with a firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: Why, when you went on an operation of that nature, when I say of that nature, you know that you're going face to face with security guards who will no doubt be armed, why only one of you go with a firearm? Why didn't you go there with hand grenades and more fire power to ensure the success?

MR MNTAMBO: We did have a firearm and I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: There were four of you and you were going to attack a Fidelity guard wagon, you must have known the people would have been armed, so the question was, why not take more fire power than you did, seeing that you were a unit and there were more than one of you?

MR MNTAMBO: As I explained before, we were running short of material. Even other units were running short that is why Bless also said if we could disarm these people, we should do so and in all those operations it's only one AK47 rifle that was used, therefore the reason why we had only one AK and not hand grenades is that with a hand grenade

many people can sustain injuries and it is not very accurate and the reason why there were many of us, is because we also wanted to create the impression that we were many whereas only one person had a firearm. Even the police on investigating, they discovered only cartridges from one firearm.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You also had a Makarov pistol?

CHAIRPERSON: Well not you personally but we know that during 1992 at least, that was 1992 it was a Makarov pistol. This was in 1989 was it? 88 sorry.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't you have the Makarov pistol in 1988?

MR MNTAMBO: We did not have anything. If somebody did have a Makarov then it was not during that time.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat.

MS LOCKHAT: You said that you dropped Sazi off, where did you drop him off? What was his role in the whole incident?

MR MNTAMBO: He was dropped off in a position that would enable him to see these people coming out of the building therefore he communicated with Andrew who, in turn, communicated with us through the window. Therefore the important thing was signalling to one another and for them to create the impression that there are many of us and that we are all armed.

MS LOCKHAT: Was it possible that Sazi actually went onto the roof?

MR MNTAMBO: I do not know anything about the roof and I did ask before if they referred to the rooftop of a vehicle or of a building, but there was not time at that time to get onto a roof, because I think this operation took about five minutes.

MS LOCKHAT: Yes, but surely you must have planned this operation to the finest detail, even if it had taken 5 minutes?

MR MNTAMBO: That is true.

MS LOCKHAT: So then it was possible for you to organise yourselves in such a way that you could have sight over the premises there, isn't that so?

MR MNTAMBO: That is so.

MS LOCKHAT: So it is possible, as Mr van Vuuren said, that someone was actually at the rooftop?

MR MNTAMBO: I do not know about that, maybe my co-applicants can shed more light, but I do not remember seeing anyone on the roof.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Lockhat. Mr Kopedi, do you have any re-examination?

MR KOPEDI: Nothing in re-exam thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Judge de Jager, do you have any questions you would like to ask?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you ever meet Mr Monde afterwards, after you'd been arrested?

MR MNTAMBO: No, because on my arrest I managed to escape. Thereafter I fled to exile, so I did not meet him.

CHAIRPERSON: Is he still alive? Do you know where he is?

Is he around?

MR MNTAMBO: I am not certain, but the rumour is that he passed away.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So you never learned what happened to the R71 000 left?

MR MNTAMBO: That is correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Whether he took it for himself or what did he do with it?

MR MNTAMBO: What I can say about Monde is that I believed and had faith in him as an MK operative, he would not order such an operation to use us, that is the faith I had in him.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

ADV SIGODI: What happened to Simon? Was he ever rescued? Because the money was supposed to be used to rescue him.

CHAIRPERSON: Simon was Monde's responsibility. What I learned later was that Simon was removed from Johannesburg and he was taken to another hospital in Pretoria but therefore I'm speculating that Monde's plan did not succeed because of that reason.

ADV SIGODI: And this Fidelity Guard robbery, how did you know that this Fidelity Guard van would be at that particular place on that particular time? Did you get any information from anyone?

MR MNTAMBO: I resided close by as well as Mr Mathabathe. On the issue of the order, we had to survey the place and check how many people do the delivery and what time, so normally there would be four to six people. We did this surveillance and we discovered that they usually travelled in the M4's and we also established the times that they would come to collect the cash. That was the information that was passed on to Monde. Even though the times were not as strict, but we were going to wait to fulfil that mission.

ADV SIGODI: ...(indistinct - mike not on)

MR MNTAMBO: No.

ADV SIGODI: Thank you Judge.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you ever charged and tried in respect of any of these incidents, Mr Mntambo?

MR MNTAMBO: I was arrested but I was never charged, nor went to trial until the time that I escaped.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kopedi, do you have any questions arising?

MR KOPEDI: No questions arising, that you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat, any questions arising?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mntambo, thank you, that concludes your evidence.

MR MNTAMBO: Thank you.

MR KOPEDI: Chairperson, I beg leave to call the next applicant who would be Mr Sandile Ndlungwane.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------SANDILE S NDLUNGWANE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kopedi.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR KOPEDI: Mr Ndlungwane you have listened to the evidence given by Mr Mntambo. I would like to clear a few perhaps preliminary issues with you. At this point were you a member of any political organisation and if so, what organisation was that?

MR NDLUNGWANE: At this point I was a member of the African National Congress.

MR KOPEDI: Did you also belong to the armed wing of the ANC, MK?

MR NDLUNGWANE: I did.

MR KOPEDI: Your co-applicant Mr Mntambo has mentioned that there was a unit which was commanded by Simon Modise whose deputy was Bless and gave this Honourable Committee the names of yourself and the other members of this unit, would you confirm that?

MR NDLUNGWANE: I indeed confirm that.

MR KOPEDI: Okay. Your co-applicant has also told this Honourable Committee that you were involved in certain incidents rather and I would like to take you through them one by one and get your confirmation on that. The first one would be the attack on Mr Monamodi.

MR NDLUNGWANE: Indeed that is true, I was involved.

MR KOPEDI: Now as he explained to this Honourable Committee how the attack was launched, is there anything you would like to add or take away from what he has said, particularly in as far as you are concerned?

MR NDLUNGWANE: I indeed confirm everything that he said.

MR KOPEDI: The other incident refers to the attack on Ma Sithole's house or the throwing of a grenade in Ma Sithole's house. Do you confirm?

MR NDLUNGWANE: I indeed confirm that as well.

MR KOPEDI: And what about Dr Matsie?

MR NDLUNGWANE: I confirm everything, also that he actually alluded to.

MR KOPEDI: What about Mr Shomane?

MR NDLUNGWANE: I also confirm that as well.

MR KOPEDI: I see you were not involved on the SB, the tenant operation. Is there any other operation you were involved in with this unit that we have not talked about now?

MR NDLUNGWANE: I think all the operations that he alluded are the only ones that I was involved.

MR KOPEDI: Okay.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, just on this point, just for information more than anything, Mr Ndlungwane. How did it come about, perhaps I should have also asked Mr Mntambo, how did it come about that not the whole unit was involved in all the operations? In other words you were only involved in some and some of your comrades were involved in others without you being there, how did that come about that you weren't involved in all these operations? Did that depend on what the operation was etc? Can you just explain to us?

MR NDLUNGWANE: Well the reason I was personally not involved in some of them is that I was out of the country at the time because I was also in the leadership of the Trade Union at national level so I went out quite often.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson. Alright, during 1992 you were arrested, charged and convicted with possession of a Makarov pistol, is that correct?

MR NDLUNGWANE: That is correct.

MR KOPEDI: Where did you get this pistol from?

MR NDLUNGWANE: I got this from the MK.

MR KOPEDI: Do you know who in the MK gave it to you?

MR NDLUNGWANE: Well basically immediately after the unbanning of the African National Congress, there was this scourge of violence and those MK comrades who were back at the time, met at certain instances to discuss about the situation and a decision was then taken that people should be armed and SDUs should be trained and on a particular day an arms cache was actually brought to me by ...(indistinct) by a person who I could not identify, for reasons I would think that they were obvious from the people who sent them to me.

MR KOPEDI: Do you think that your possession of this pistol was politically motivated?

MR NDLUNGWANE: It was indeed, because it was not the only weapon that was actually brought to me, because there were others that were brought to also help train other people.

CHAIRPERSON: You used the pistol for training?

MR NDLUNGWANE: It was mainly for that purpose, even though it wasn't eventually used.

CHAIRPERSON: You never shot it in anger?

MR NDLUNGWANE: No, it wasn't.

MR KOPEDI: Now did you benefit anything financially or materially from the possession of this Makarov pistol?

MR NDLUNGWANE: I didn't benefit anything personally or financially.

MR KOPEDI: Do you think that you have fully disclosed to this Honourable Committee all the relevant facts surrounding this pistol and perhaps all other instances where you were involved?

CHAIRPERSON: And what sentence you got, could you tell us what sentence you got?

MR NDLUNGWANE: I actually got 6 months and there was a fine, R2 000 fine, yes R2 000 plus fine, I can't remember exactly.

MR KOPEDI: I believe two thousand you mean Rand?

MR NDLUNGWANE: R2 000.

MR KOPEDI: Yes. Chairperson, that will be the evidence of this applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Kopedi. Ms Lockhat do you have any questions you would like to ask?

MS LOCKHAT: Yes, thank you Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: I see that you worked for, you were an admin officer for Soweto City Council, is that right?

MR NDLUNGWANE: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: Was that at the time of these incidents?

MR NDLUNGWANE: It was at the time of these incidents.

MS LOCKHAT: So you also knew Mr Monamodi and some of the other victims?

MR NDLUNGWANE: Well, Mr Monamodi personally I didn't but I knew Ms Sithole and Dr Matsie.

MS LOCKHAT: So you wouldn't know about the information that was gathered on him and so forth?

MR NDLUNGWANE: Well I know about the information that was gathered, but I didn't know him personally.

CHAIRPERSON: In your capacity as an admin officer in that particular city council, we've heard that Mr Monamodi says that he was employed as a plumber by the same City Council. Were you personally aware, although you didn't know him, of what role he played with regard, if any, the strike, this Municipal Workers' strike that was on at the time?

MR NDLUNGWANE: Well again, personally I don't know of the role that he played, but I know that he actually connived with the Directorate in terms of the Union bashing.

CHAIRPERSON: How did you know that?

MR NDLUNGWANE: This was the information we gathered which was being spoken about because the strike actually involved all the employees of the Soweto City Council including the workers who worked with him.

MS LOCKHAT: So who else gathered this information besides you, I mean you worked at this place, it seems obvious that you would know of him?

MR NDLUNGWANE: You're asking who else gathered?

MS LOCKHAT: The information on Mr Monamodi and others.

MR NDLUNGWANE: You will understand that at the time I was in the leadership of SAWU at national level so the information would actually you know, reach me as well as George Mogapi in particular.

CHAIRPERSON: Why George Mogapi in particular?

MR NDLUNGWANE: Because he also worked for the Soweto City Council as well.

MS LOCKHAT: I see you got indemnity. Is it correct that you got indemnity?

MR NDLUNGWANE: Yes.

MS LOCKHAT: For which acts did you get indemnity, for which incidents?

MR NDLUNGWANE: In 1990 or 91 I actually applied for my involvement within the MK activities but of course I didn't really specify exactly recruitment, reconnaissance, surveillance and all that, but I didn't really specify the activities as I have done now in this TRC.

CHAIRPERSON: It was a sort of a blanket indemnity ...

MR NDLUNGWANE: A blanket indemnity without specifics.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you have any re-examination Mr Kopedi?

MR KOPEDI: Nothing in re-exam thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Judge de Jager, do you have any questions?

JUDGE DE JAGER: You were in a position to confirm whether Mr Monamodi was in fact conniving against the strike because you were working with him at the Council, isn't that so?

MR NDLUNGWANE: Pardon, is that a question, Sir?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes. Couldn't you ascertain whether this was this rumour or the information you obtained was in fact based on facts and that he did in fact work against the strike.

MR NDLUNGWANE: Well the person who really worked, not so close but who was really in a position to know that was my comrade George Mogapi because they almost worked in the same, even though it was not exactly the same, department, but very closely which is technical services, so because he almost really also confirmed to a certain extent this, so I had no reason also to probe into the matter.

JUDGE DE JAGER: I see. So you acted on the belief that the information was indeed trustworthy and correct?

MR NDLUNGWANE: Yes, because at least there was a person who worked not very far distant from him, so therefore he would give us concrete evidence.

JUDGE DE JAGER: We've heard today that Mr Monamodi, he's denying that, he said he participated in the strike, he didn't work against the strike. Can you comment on that?

MR NDLUNGWANE: Well, I wouldn't agree or disagree that he didn't but I'm saying that this is the information we gathered and obviously we had nothing against him personally because our intention was to ensure that we pursue the political objectives and the objectives of those of the workers who were on strike.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndlungwane, this particular strike, did all the workers participate in that or was it only sort of partial? I mean was it a shut-down?

MR NDLUNGWANE: It was a shut-down.

CHAIRPERSON: So, people participated in the strike, I'm just putting this to you, would people have participated in the strike, in other words by staying away from work or whatever, because they wanted to and because they agreed with it and also because they not necessarily agreed with it, but just because everybody else was doing it and they felt that they were exposing themselves if they came to work? Would that be the situation?

MR NDLUNGWANE: Well I don't want ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I mean it's been put that, I'm not commenting on what Mr Monamodi, the credibility of what he said, but he said that he participated in the strike. What I'm asking you, would there have been people who participated in the strike without necessarily being pro the strike?

MR NDLUNGWANE: Well, that is a possibility but I do not want to say that that was the case. I take it that the people who participated, supported the demands that were put by themselves, you know.

CHAIRPERSON: We also know, I think we've got to be quite open, we also know that there's a degree of intimidation, even if it's not direct, just peer pressure, put it that way. If I'm the only chap in my department to go to work now and everyone's striking there's a lot of pressure for me to do that, it takes a brave man to do that.

MR NDLUNGWANE: Well I would say that indeed that is human in such instance, even if it's indirect, it may be there, but I can't confirm that there was any that day.

CHAIRPERSON: I understand that. Adv Sigodi?

ADV SIGODI: I have no questions, Chair.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Ndlungwane, oh sorry, any questions arising?

MR KOPEDI: Nothing arising thanks Chairperson.

MS LOCKHAT: No questions, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Ndlungwane, that concludes your evidence.

MR NDLUNGWANE: Thank you very much.

MR KOPEDI: Mr Chairperson, I beg leave to call in the third applicant, Mr Andrew Mathabathe.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------ANDREW NKOMONA P. MATHABATHE: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kopedi.

MR KOPEDI: Thank you Chairperson.

EXAMINATION BY MR KOPEDI: Mr Mathabathe, you've heard what your co-applicants have told this Honourable Committee. Of particular importance, is it correct that you were a member of a unit wherein Mr Mntambo and Mr Ndlungwane were members?

MR MATHABATHE: That is correct.

MR KOPEDI: This unit, was it an MK unit?

MR MATHABATHE: Yes, it was an MK unit.

MR KOPEDI: Did you belong to any political organisation?

MR MATHABATHE: Yes.

MR KOPEDI: Which political organisation?

MR MATHABATHE: African National Congress.

MR KOPEDI: Now you've heard what Mr Mntambo told this Honourable Committee and in particular mentioning the instance where you were involved in the operations carried out by this unit. Would you like to comment on that? That is on the correctness thereof?

MR MATHABATHE: What he mentioned here is true. All that he mentioned here is true.

MR KOPEDI: Is there anything that he did not mention, which he omitted and which you think should be told to this Honourable Committee?

MR MATHABATHE: I think he mentioned everything and everything that he has mentioned is true.

MR KOPEDI: Now let us move to the events after Mr Mntambo had been taken to the Glenmed hospital. He has mentioned that you were in possession of the money from the robbery, is that correct?

MR MATHABATHE: That is correct.

MR KOPEDI: What did you do with this money? What happened? Please tell this Committee what you did with this money, if anything really.

MR MATHABATHE: After Linda went to the hospital, because he was in a position to talk to Bless, I was under his command. I had the money with me and I visited him to the hospital and I asked him what to do with the money. He told me that I must meet with Bless at a certain point in Dube, it's a park. He told me that Bless would come and collect the money. Indeed we met with Bless and he took the money, all the money that was left over he took from me.

MR KOPEDI: Do you remember how much he took from you, how much you gave him?

MR MATHABATHE: I did not personally count the money. I gave him all. That is the money that was taken, except the money that was paid out to assist with Linda's medical fees.

MR KOPEDI: Who paid Linda's medical fees?

MR MATHABATHE: I do not have evidence to that effect but on his way to the hospital it was myself and Bobo Tshabalala. I do not know exactly who paid for the fees at the hospital.

CHAIRPERSON: Who counted the money?

MR MATHABATHE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Who did? Who counted the money? We've heard that there was R76 000 involved. How do we know there was R76 000 involved? How does that figure - where does that figure come from?

MR MATHABATHE: Chairperson, we only heard of that from the newspapers and from the television reports. Even when we were arrested we were told that that was the sum of money that was stolen.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Mathabathe when you say you had the money, was it used notes or were there cheques? Do you know? Did you look at the money physically?

MR MATHABATHE: Yes, it was notes and coins as well.

MR KOPEDI: Do you know if there were any cheques?

MR MATHABATHE: I do not recall whether there were cheques.

MR KOPEDI: Okay and you met with Monde, or Bless at this park, gave him the money. What else? Anything else happen? Did you ever see Monde again? Did he tell you where he was going to take the money to? What happened?

MR MATHABATHE: The evidence that was put forward by Linda as to how the money was going to be utilised, that is the true version of what was going to happen and the money was going to be used according to how he put before this Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was I think Mr Kopedi, did you ever see Monde after that? Did you ever get the opportunity to ask him what in fact happened with the money?

MR MATHABATHE: Unfortunately after quite some time after handing the money over to Monde, we were arrested on the 27th of January, in other words I never met with Monde afterwards.

MR KOPEDI: So it is correct to say that although at some stage you were the custodian of this money, you do not know what ultimately happened to it, that is other than the money used to pay Glenmed Hospital?

MR MATHABATHE: Correct.

MR KOPEDI: Chairperson, that is the evidence of this witness.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 59, there's an "uitspraak", a judgment, by Judge Smit of the then Supreme Court in 1990 in the case against Mr Mogapi and he says, and I'll read it in Afrikaans:

Do you know where that comes from?

MR MATHABATHE: Chairperson you clearly put that it was at George's trial but somewhere the trials were separated, mine and George's were separated. I do not know what George mentioned in his trial.

CHAIRPERSON: You can't comment on that extract of the Judgment which I read? Thank you. Ms Lockhat any questions?

MS LOCKHAT: Yes, thank you Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS LOCKHAT: I just want to refer you to page 3 of your amnesty application form that's in the bundle. I just want to clarify one aspect. At paragraph 9(a)(i) it says, the last one, I think that's (d) "Attempted to blast a police patrol vehicle". I just want to see if that's the same incident relevant to the police officer, or is it a different incident? If Mr Kopedi could just clarify that for me.

MR KOPEDI: Which page are you on?

CHAIRPERSON: Take a look at this. Page 3 of the bundle, paragraph 9(a), it's towards the bottom of the page, little (i), number (d) "Attempted to blast a police patrol vehicle"

MR KOPEDI: I believe the first applicant alluded to this matter and other matters where attempts were made but nothing materially came out of and I believe this (d) refers to one such attempt.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - mike not on) traffic officer.

MR KOPEDI: No, if I may try and recap what was the evidence. In terms of the traffic officer, they definitely shot at him. They went to the traffic officer who opened his window, drew out a firearm, they fled and shot at him, but there were several other operations which really didn't take place. For instance, there was one operation where they were going to throw a hand grenade at police officials. This did not happen because of a risk that other people could be injured. There was another attempt of a booby trapped hand grenade on somebody's gate, all these things did not happen and I believe that this little (d) refers to one such attempt.

CHAIRPERSON: Well perhaps Mr Mathabathe you can - attempted to blast a police patrol vehicle, what's that about?

MR MATHABATHE: Chairperson you will recall after Linda Mntambo gave his evidence, he mentioned that we also tried to hit at a patrol van, but we did not succeed. We withdrew because it was around 7 and a lot of people were around there, we realised that other people would be injured. This was only targeted to the police not the other people.

CHAIRPERSON: So it wasn't really an attempt in the legal sense of the word, but it was at best a conspiracy, because you never actually other than taking a look and seeing that there were too many people, you never actually did anything there?

MR MATHABATHE: Correct.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson. I just want to come back to the incident with the money. Who gave the R4 000 or the R5 000 to Linda for his hospital bills and so forth? Who gave him that money?

MR MATHABATHE: The money was taken out on our way to the hospital so that he could pay. He would not be admitted before the deposit was put on the table, so that he can be given a bed at the hospital for his treatment.

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, who took that money, that R4 000?

MR MATHABATHE: I do not recall whether it was me or Linda, because he was also there.

MS LOCKHAT: So was this money all together in a bag or something by that stage? Was the money in a bag at that stage?

CHAIRPERSON: R4 000.

MS LOCKHAT: Yes, was it with the other R76 000 for instance, did you take it out of the bag?

MR MATHABATHE: I think so.

MS LOCKHAT: And how long did you have this money in your possession?

MR MATHABATHE: I would not be accurate, but it was a few days, if not a week.

MS LOCKHAT: So here you go, rob these Fidelity Guards, you have all this money, it was in trunks, isn't it? Then who transferred the money from the trunks into the bags?

MR MATHABATHE: I do not know what to say because nobody among us mentioned that the money was transferred from the trunks into the bags.

CHAIRPERSON: Were you involved in the transference of the money from the trunks to anywhere else, you yourself personally?

MR MATHABATHE: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So what did you do with it? Now we were told there were two steel trunks. You've got them now, what did you do with them? Break them open, open them and then what happened? Just tell us?

MR MATHABATHE: Exactly. All of us opened the trunks. We took the money and we put it inside one bag. I left after a few days to go and destroy those trunks around Moroka.

MS LOCKHAT: So you had this bag of money for a couple of days, isn't it so?

MR MATHABATHE: Correct.

MS LOCKHAT: So here you robbed these people, you've got all this money and you don't bother to count the money, I don't understand that.

MR MATHABATHE: It is true. That was not my order, to count the money, was it? The order was that we should get money.

CHAIRPERSON: But I think what she's saying, Mr Mathabathe, it's not a question of orders, you don't have to be ordered to do every single thing, to open the trunk and then to be ordered to take it out, be ordered to put it on the table, be ordered to put it in a bag, you just do these things without being ordered. Now she's saying, she's putting it to you, isn't it unusual that you've got this money for some days and no one even bothers to count it? Wasn't there some sort of inherent curiosity to find out whether these FG people are saying to the police R76 000 was robbed when in fact it was only R10 000?

MR MATHABATHE: I did not count the money, really.

ADV SIGODI: Sorry, just to clarify something, I seem to be getting confused here. When was Linda taken to hospital? When was Mr Mntambo taken to hospital?

MR MATHABATHE: On the day of his injury, that is on the day of the incident.

ADV SIGODI: But now you say that you had to take the R4 000 after a couple of days you ordered for Mr Mntambo to be admitted into hospital. Can you clarify that, because he wouldn't be admitted at hospital.

MR MATHABATHE: I said to the Chairperson the money was taken on the same day because he would not be admitted at the hospital without a deposit or the money for the medical expenses.

ADV SIGODI: And did you know how much would be needed at hospital before? Who told you how much would be needed at the hospital?

MR MATHABATHE: We went with Ospops. Ospops was one of the nurses. He mentioned to us that Linda would not be admitted without the money that we've referred to.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat.

MS LOCKHAT: And do you know if Simon Metseng, he wanted to have him released as well, he wanted to use this money for him as well, did you put aside money for that as well?

MR MATHABATHE: Linda Mntambo did mention that Bless was the person organising all this.

MS LOCKHAT: So when you handed over the money to Monde did you not, who did you hand the money over to eventually?

MR MATHABATHE: Can you repeat that please?

CHAIRPERSON: The question was, who did you eventually hand the money over to? I think you said it was Monde, in the park.

MR MATHABATHE: Correct.

MS LOCKHAT: Did you ever check to find out what Monde did with that money? Did you try to contact him again after this incident?

MR MATHABATHE: I did mention that after this incident, we were arrested.

MS LOCKHAT: So you didn't have any contact with Monde after that?

MR MATHABATHE: That is correct.

MS LOCKHAT: Just one last question. Did you give any money to any of the comrades that participated in this incident, seeing that you had all this money. Did you give any money, maybe R1 000 or whatever to any of the comrades involved in the incident at that time?

MR MATHABATHE: No.

MS LOCKHAT: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Lockhat. Do you have any re-examination?

MR KOPEDI: Nothing. No re-exam thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Kopedi. Judge de Jager, do you have any questions you'd like to ask?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Did you hand the money to Mr Monde?

MR MATHABATHE: Correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: So Linda was never in possession of the bag of money, is that correct?

MR MATHABATHE: Correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: Now Linda had a girlfriend, Veronica Mabusa, did you know her?

MR MATHABATHE: Correct.

JUDGE DE JAGER: She testified at the hearing of Mr Mogapi, was that the ... Yes. And she told the court that the money was handed to her. She had the bag of money and it was a large amount but she didn't know how much and Linda asked her to put the bag in a wardrobe and that Mr Mogapi told her that some of the money was used to pay Linda's hospital costs and an amount of R4 000 was mentioned indeed and then she goes on to say that Linda spent some of the money on cutlery, blankets and so on. You don't know anything about that?

MR MATHABATHE: No, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: That's in direct contradiction to what you've testified. So you say that you had the money in your possession the whole time and you gave it over to Monde. You didn't have any getting the money from Veronica did you?

MR MATHABATHE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: So you dispute that?

MR MATHABATHE: I dispute that.

CHAIRPERSON: Adv Sigodi, any questions you'd like to ask?

ADV SIGODI: You say, at this time how long had you been an MK member?

MR MATHABATHE: From 1988.

ADV SIGODI: And you say you had been given some training?

MR MATHABATHE: Correct.

ADV SIGODI: Your training was given to you by, who gave you the training?

MR MATHABATHE: Linda Mntambo.

ADV SIGODI: Did he also inform you on the policies of the ANC?

MR MATHABATHE: When you're talking about the activities of the MK, you're actually talking about the policies of the ANC?

ADV SIGODI: Yes, I mean you also mentioned that you were also an ANC member, but as an MK person, one would expect that would have been to understand the political training of the ANC.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you get political training as well as military training?

MR MATHABATHE: Correct.

ADV SIGODI: Were you aware that it was not ANC policy to rob?

MR MATHABATHE: Correct.

ADV SIGODI: So when you took the order at that time you were aware that it was not ANC policy?

MR MATHABATHE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mathabathe I see from your application form you say that you were charged, Section 29 of 1982 of the Terrorism Act, was the armed robbery part of that charge?

MR MATHABATHE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were actually charged and convicted of the Fidelity Guard armed robbery and you were sentenced to 12 years imprisonment.

MR MATHABATHE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you say you received, you've got in brackets here just (indemnified), did you receive indemnity in respect of that conviction?

MR MATHABATHE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it, when you applied for indemnity, was it specific to that conviction? It wasn't some sort of blanket type of indemnity?

MR MATHABATHE: Correct, for a specific robbery.

CHAIRPERSON: And then you were released from prison because of that indemnity?

MR MATHABATHE: Correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kopedi any questions arising?

JUDGE DE JAGER: Sorry. Perhaps it wasn't clear, but it may be that the witness Ms Mabusa referred to another occasion. I don't know whether there was another occasion where you handed money to Linda and the money was in a First National Bank Bag. Now I don't know whether such a bag could contain R76 000, or R70 000. Wasn't there an occasion when you handed a smaller amount of money to him and that he used that money to buy clothes and so on?

MR MATHABATHE: No, not at all.

JUDGE DE JAGER: You never handed money to him?

MR MATHABATHE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Kopedi any questions arising?

MR KOPEDI: Nothing arising, thanks Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Ms Lockhat any questions arising?

MS LOCKHAT: No questions, thank you Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mathabathe, that concludes your testimony. I think it might be an appropriate time, or do you think we should go through, I don't know if you ...

MR KOPEDI: I would ask Chairperson that we adjourn for the day.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR KOPEDI: I must mention that there is not much left, but I would ask that we adjourn.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I was also thinking that because it is quite a long stretch for the translators, they've had quite a long stretch. Yes, what would be a convenient time to start tomorrow, bearing in mind, have you got some of the applicants still to come from ...

MR KOPEDI: Prison yes.

CHAIRPERSON: What is the situation there? What happened this morning? Will it be repeated? Well, hopefully not.

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, Mr Kopedi's got no more applicants after this.

CHAIRPERSON: No, I mean tomorrow. If we start at half past nine, is there any point in - will the applicants who are still in custody be here at that time?

MS LOCKHAT: Chairperson, I see Correctional Services over there.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it be possible to start at half past nine tomorrow? Perhaps you can ask him?

JUDGE DE JAGER: "Kan u miskien net bietjie vorentoe kom, asseblief?" Would it be possible to have Mr Mogapi here tomorrow morning at half past, ag Mr Ndlovu here tomorrow at half past nine? Probably a little earlier, say 9 o'clock, round about? Thank you so much.

CHAIRPERSON: Would it be convenient then to adjourn to half past nine tomorrow morning?

MR KOPEDI: Or 9, still better, if they can be here by nine, fine by us.

CHAIRPERSON: So what time do you want to start. Chris you're coming from Pretoria, what time do you want to start?

JUDGE DE JAGER: I don't mind. If I have to be here at nine, I'll be here at nine. ...(indistinct)

MS LOCKHAT: Nine is fine if it's with everybody, or 9.30 is even perfect if people are getting stuck in the traffic.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think let's try 9 o'clock. We can try that.

MS LOCKHAT: In order, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. So that Ladies and Gentlemen brings us to the end of today's hearing. We will be adjourning this same hearing and then we'll hear others tomorrow as well or maybe another and we'll adjourn then until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning at the same venue, at this hall, 9 o'clock tomorrow morning. Thank you.

COMMITTEE ADJOURNS