CHAIRPERSON: Good afternoon, we want to start the proceedings. For the record, it is Monday the 31st of January 2000. This is hearing of the Amnesty Committee, held at Umtata. The Panel consists of myself, my name is Denzil Potgieter. With me is Judge Miller and Mr Sibanyoni. We would be commencing with the amnesty applications of SM Ntisane and others. We are told that although we have six applicants on the roll in respect of this particular matter, not all of them are present at this stage. So we have four of those applicants whose matters we would be proceeding with at this stage.

Can I just indicate also that we have been delayed in starting the proceedings today because of difficulties that one of the Panel Members has experienced in transport from Johannesburg to Umtata. So we apologise for any convenience that has resulted from that delay. I'm going to ask the legal representatives to put themselves on record in respect of the applicants first.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I'm Kobus Malan from the attorney's firm, Kobus Malan Attorney in Northam. I'm representing Mr Gumengu and Mr Nombanga.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Malan, you say Mr Gumengu and Mr Nombanga, that's applicants numbers 4 and 6.

MR MALAN: I don't have it here in front of me, but I presume it's the right numbers.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, it's Gumengu you say and Nombanga.

MR MALAN: Yes, on the numbering that we have on the bundle that would be applicants 4 and 6, as my colleague has indicated. Ms Dambuza.

MS DAMBUZA: My name is Nambitha Dambuza, I'm representing applicants number 1, 2, 3 and 5, from Attorneys Dambuza and Associates in Butterworth.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Ms Dambuza you informed us that two of the applicants are unfortunately not present today, which two of the applicants are not here?

MS DAMBUZA: Yes Sir, it is so. The applicants that are here are applicants number 1 and applicant number 5. 2 and 3 are the ones that are not here today.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Ms Dambuza. Mr Nodada?

MR NODADA: Thank you Mr Chairman. I represent the victims of the incident as well as the next-of-kin of the deceased. My names are Kwezi Nodada of Kwezi Nodada ...(indistinct) and Co.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nodada. Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. My name is Zuko Mapoma, I'm the Evidence Leader for the Committee.

CHAIRPERSON: We have been advised by the legal representatives that they are happy for us to proceed with the applications of those of the applicants that we have on the roll here, who are present at this stage and that steps have been taken to contact the other two applicants who are not present and we will receive a report on that as soon as the employee of the Commission who has attended to that particular matter, returns to the venue here. So under those circumstances I assume Ms Dambuza, would you commence with your applicants, number 1 or which one are we commencing with?

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Malan will be commencing I think.

CHAIRPERSON: Which applicant are you starting off with, Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: Mr Gumengu, if you please Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gumengu?

MR MALAN: That's right.

CHAIRPERSON: Is it Mr Gumengu seated next to you?

MR MALAN: Positive.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Gumengu, do you hear the interpretation on your headset?

MR GUMENGU: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you give your full names for the record.

PUMELELE GUMENGU: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Mr Malan.

EXAMINATION BY MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Gumengu, you applied for amnesty to this Amnesty Committee, and you did so in terms of Section 18 and Section 20 in particular, of Act 34/95, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Alright. You have drafted an affidavit and parts of it was in Afrikaans and I'll translate as far as I go in recording the evidence as you've stated in your affidavit. You start off with your involvement of the Craig Duli coup, was it during 1989 that you were informed by Capt Mfazwe that Gen Bantu Holomisa had enrolled with the ANC, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And was this a turnabout of his initial political intentions?

MR GUMENGU: I think it is like that.

MR MALAN: Capt Mfazwe indicated to you that this tantamount to a split in the military junta that ruled Transkei at that time, do you agree with that?

MR GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MALAN: And that there were certain elements in that military council that intended to move Gen Holomisa by means of a coup d'état.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: A certain Mr Craig Duli was identified to you as the person who had the ability to execute a coup and you received instructions from Capt Mfazwe to infiltrate his group to monitor any developments in that regard, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: You then approached Mr Duli and made an appointment with him in East London, and you already knew Mr Duli since 1987, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: What did Mr Duli indicate to you when you met in East London?

MR GUMENGU: He told me that there was no understanding or there was conflict amongst themselves and about the decision that were taken concerning the people and he tried to rectify those conflicts, but he was taken as an enemy.

MR MALAN: Did he indicate that he would like to remove Mr Holomisa by means of a coup d'état?

MR GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MALAN: In late November the same year you received another telephone call from Mr Duli and he requested you to meet him once again in East London, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: He informed you that the coup will be taking place in the near future, and what did you do with that information?

MR GUMENGU: As I was employed by the Transkeian Police, I took that information and I gave it to the people, the people that were leading the police at that time in the Transkei.

MR MALAN: Were you there in your official capacity?

MR GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And did you receive ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Malan - Mr Gumengu, at that time you say you worked for the police, which branch of the police did you work for?

MR GUMENGU: The Security Police.

JUDGE MILLER: And when Mr Duli told you about his intentions to carry out a coup d'état, you say you went back and gave that information to the police. Where you in favour of the coup d'état or were you acting as a spy against Mr Duli at the time? I'm not quite sure what you're saying.

MR GUMENGU: As I was sent by the government to infiltrate, I was told to bring back the information to the police and there were reasons that Mr Duli would think that I was on his side.

JUDGE MILLER: So by relaying this information back to the police you weren't acting in Mr Duli's interests?

MR GUMENGU: No, I was not acting in his interests.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you.

MR MALAN: Thank you.

You gave the necessary information to two police officers in the Transkeian police service, in accordance with your initial instructions, can you name the two officers?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I can name them. What happened is after Capt Mfazwe died there was a problem concerning whom I could give the information to, I then contacted two people that I could give this information. I was working under the Transkeian Police, so I gave information to Mr Mzinyathi and Mr Ngxabane.

MR MALAN: On the 21st of November ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, I wonder if you could just spell those names please. Mr Mzinyathi you say.

MR GUMENGU: M-z-i-n-y-a-t-h-i. The second one is Ngxabane, N-g-x-a-b-a-n-e.

MR SIBANYONI: What was the cause of Mr Mfazwe's death?

MR GUMENGU: It was a car accident.

MR MALAN: On November the 21st, 1990, you informed part of a group that entered Transkei with the sole purpose to execute the coup d'état, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Not with the purpose of taking part, but with the purpose of monitoring so that I could give a report back to the police.

MR MALAN: No, but what I want to get across, with respect, is that on the 21st November 1990 you were part and parcel of Mr Craig Duli's group with the intention to execute the coup. That was the purpose of the group.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I was together with them.

MR MALAN: Alright. One of your tasks was to enter the Transkei ahead of them and to be lookout for roadblocks and so forth, is that true?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that was my task, I was tasked to look for those things by that group.

MR MALAN: This also gave you the opportunity to contact Mr Mzinyathi from Umtata Security Branch, to inform him of the proceedings.

MR GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And you did so indeed.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I did so.

MR MALAN: They tried to execute the coup in your presence, is that true?

MR GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: And you were subsequently arrested in doing so.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, we were arrested.

MR MALAN: Did you try to get across to your capturers that you were actually not part of the coup but you were planted there by government sources?

MR GUMENGU: I tried to tell the people that were asking me questions, but there was no chance to do that, but I contacted the head office and I gave them the information.

MR MALAN: What happened to you at the end of the day? Were you convicted?

MR GUMENGU: I was convicted when they were also convicted.

MR MALAN: And did your superiors not come forth in the subsequent criminal case that was held at some stage in December?

MR GUMENGU: Even though I had contact with them, in court they didn't come forward because they felt that I had to be inside that group to give them information, I must not tell the Court that I was part of the government but I had to continue with the job that I was doing in that group.

MR MALAN: Are you telling this Committee that you were prepared to go to jail for 15 years in an effort to monitor the people that were captured with you?

MR GUMENGU: That is correct.

MR MALAN: Right. Did you foresee any loss of life in participating in the coup?

MR GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MALAN: Do you know any person who subsequently died of these actions?

MR GUMENGU: I heard about it, I heard in court. They were named in court, but I don't know them.

MR MALAN: Did some people who formed part of Mr Duli's group also die in this effort?

MR GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MALAN: Name some of the people who died.

MR GUMENGU: I don't know their names except Mr Craig Duli.

MR MALAN: Do you know how he died?

MR GUMENGU: I first heard in court how he died.

MR MALAN: Right. Was this your sole or your whole involvement with the Duli matter?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Was there more than one person who was there in the same capacity as you? What I tried to get across to you, were there more than you alone that were planted there to monitor the proceedings?

MR GUMENGU: When we were arrested I found out that there were other people that were doing the same job as I was doing because there was the Security Force members, National Intelligence and Military Intelligence. We were all there with the same purpose but we were also convicted.

MR MALAN: Right. Do you wish to disclose anything further to this Committee with regards to this matter?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, there is.

MR MALAN: Please continue.

MR GUMENGU: After I was convicted - or let me start by saying before I was convicted, as I had contact with the police head office, the chief of security would send delegates from the office so that they can brief me about the situation and they would say to me that I must continue with the job I was doing. That happened until I was convicted.

Even when I was sentence, a Board of Inquiry of the department in 1995 found me not guilty, they found that indeed I was working for the government. But the Chairman of the Board couldn't just say I must go back to work at the time because he found me not guilty but there was to be a letter from the Commissioner of Police as I was released in 1985, we got amnesty.

What was very painful is that at that time my salary that I was supposed to be getting I didn't get it. What I would like to add is that I know that in people's minds there are people that are looking at me with a bad eye, saying that I killed people. Yes, indeed I was part of that group but I had different intentions as I've already mentioned, but because of that that gave me a bad name. I would like to say to them they must forgive me.

MR MALAN: Did this action of yours spring from political motivations?

MR GUMENGU: Everything that happened was politically motivated at the time.

MR MALAN: Did you believe that what you were doing was right, in obeying orders and executing a coup?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, it was the right thing because I knew that by working for the government I was protecting the people.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that will be the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malan. Mr Nodada, have you got any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA: You have stated at the end of your evidence that everything that you did was politically motivated, what do you mean by that?

MR NODADA: I mean this. When this all started it started on the day whereby the army overthrew the parliament that was elected by the people. That is politics.

Secondly, this went further. Craig Duli was fighting against the decision that was taken pertaining to the Transkeian people, promising them things and when Holomisa stood up to fulfil the needs of the people, then it was said that he became an ANC members. That was also politics.

MR NODADA: On whose instructions were you personally acting? Were you acting on instructions of the government or the instructions of Col Duli?

MR GUMENGU: I was taking the government's instructions.

MR NODADA: But you are aware that the coup was actually the idea of Col Duli and you allowed yourself to be involved.

MR GUMENGU: That was not Craig Duli's idea, I was not going along with Craig Duli's ideas, I was with the government, the one who instructed me to infiltrate the group.

MR NODADA: During the meetings you had with Col Duli in East London, did you tell him that you were not aligning yourself with his ideas?

MR GUMENGU: I was not allowed to do that because I was not going to get information. He had to be sure that I was on his side.

MR NODADA: In other words, right throughout your involvement with Craig Duli, he never knew that you were acting in the interests of the government of the Transkei?

MR GUMENGU: He knew that I was a public servant in the Transkei, but regarded me as one of the people who were dissatisfied about the situation, what the government was doing in the Transkei.

MR NODADA: Is that the impression that you gave him or did you exactly tell him that you are not in agreement with what was happening in Transkei under the control of, or rather chairmanship of Holomisa?

MR GUMENGU: As I used to know Craig Duli from 1987, what made him to trust me was the fact that we were always together and at the time the ANC was still banned and we were also fighting together. He had a full belief that when people said that they were against Holomisa's joining the ANC, he used to regard that person as the one who was telling the truth. Yes, he was also claiming 90% and 75% from the army, from all the people. That support was all the people who were dissatisfied about the Transkei Government.

MR NODADA: You also stated in your evidence that you foresaw lots of blood and life in the coup, do you remember?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: When you had discussions with Col Duli, did he ever indicate whether this was intended to be a bloodless coup?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, he made mention of that because he said the support that he had was going to make sure that there's no bloodshed, but if there would be any resistance he would be forced to fight, but he had high hopes that there wouldn't be any resistance. However he was still prepared to go there armed because he was going to fight, he was going for a battle.

MR NODADA: In your own mind you believed that it was highly improbable that this should be a bloodless coup.

MR GUMENGU: I was not sure, I knew that there would be bloodshed but I knew that also that would not be possible because this happened in 1997, but there was no bloodshed. Since the situation had changed he could have foreseen that there could be some bloodshed in the process. And I also knew that one of them is possible.

MR NODADA: Yes, and you actually realised that there was a vast difference between the 1987 coup because that was directed at a civilian government. There was a vast difference between that coup and the coup that was planned by Col Duli, in which you were involved.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, there was a difference because this now was involving the soldiers and at first it was only a civilian battle.

MR NODADA: If you can remember, when was your last meeting with Col Craig Duli, before the coup on the date it was actually executed?

MR GUMENGU: I arrived on a Tuesday and the overthrow of the government was going to take place Thursday morning. As from Tuesday we would meet from time to time and even on Wednesday we met and Thursday.

MR NODADA: Your meeting points, were they always in East London or even elsewhere?

MR GUMENGU: We would meet elsewhere except East London.

MR NODADA: You have indicated that you did not get your salary, since when did you last receive your salary?

MR GUMENGU: It was a very long time because when I became permanent in Gauteng where I was residing, I had last had my salary in 1988. However there was something that was called operational allowance that I used to get from time to time and I would be promised that. The reason for me not to have a full salary was because they wanted to take me off the computer system to work with people who were in the operations department and I would also be flexible to move from one place to another without being in the Transkeian computers.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Nodada, just on this - so your salary wasn't suspended because of your arrest in this matter?

MR GUMENGU: No, that is not true, it was not suspended because of that. But the one that was suspended because of this problem, was the operational allowance that I used to get in order to survive as I was still waiting for my salary that was still under process.

MR NODADA: At the beginning your evidence you indicated that Capt Mfazwe told you something about Holomisa and the ANC, what exactly did he say to you?

MR GUMENGU: Holomisa was a person who was always around, who was also the government of the Transkeian people since the overthrowing in 1988. What happened in 1989 is this, Capt Mfazwe told me that Holomisa now stopped serving the interest of the Transkeian people, he had defected to the ANC and he was doing whatever he was being told by the ANC. That was the reason for the conflict or the division among the military council members, because there were two groups now, the one that belonged to Craig and the other one and their opinions were always different. And I was told to monitor both groups and try and infiltrate and get information, as much as possible.

MR NODADA: I see. Now as you are making this application, are you making it in your capacity as an employee of the Transkei Government, or as a member of the Craig Duli group?

MR GUMENGU: I am making this application as an employee of Transkei because even now I am not yet expelled(sic), I don't hold any office and I'm not getting any salary from Transkei. I had to see to it how do I survive.

MR NODADA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have not further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Nodada. Ms Dambuza, have you got any questions?

MS DAMBUZA: I don't have any questions Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Mr Gumengu, when you were convicted in the High Court, you were convicted because you participated together with a group that was led by Mr Craig Duli to topple the Holomisa government, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, but the truth is the one that I was telling you now.

MR MAPOMA: So in actual fact you deny that you were involved in an attempt to topple the Holomisa government?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I deny that, I never attempted to overthrow the government but I was just serving in his government.

MR MAPOMA: And are you saying when you were together with the Duli group that at no stage you acted with an intention to further the interests of those who wanted to do down the Holomisa government?

MR GUMENGU: I never attempted anything to that effect.

MR MAPOMA: When did Mr Mfazwe die?

MR GUMENGU: If I'm not mistaken it was June or July 1990.

MR MAPOMA: When did he instruct you to infiltrate the Duli group?

MR GUMENGU: It was in 1989 though I cannot remember the exact month or date, but I think it was just before Craig Duli was arrested in 1989, and after that he was released in December. Just before his arrest I was given these instructions. When he was arrested in 1989 I already knew about this mission and then in December 1989 when Craig Duli left for Gauteng, Capt Mfazwe emphasised that I should meet with him and he told me that he's doing everything concerning his missions in Gauteng. As I was also told that even Holomisa was doing the same.

MR MAPOMA: Now after Mfazwe instructed you to go and infiltrate the Duli group, did you report to Mfazwe?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, all the time I used to make the report.

MR MAPOMA: What did you report to him?

MR GUMENGU: I would tell him about the people that I had met with and I would even update him about those people and tell him what was happening from both sides, because I was not watching one side only, I had to watch both sides and I had to update him about everything that was happening concerning their movements. Because in 1989, up until the period where Craig Duli was arrested, around Good Friday, I hadn't seen him in Gauteng. Even though I was told that he was there, I never got a chance to meet with him, but I used to hear from different people about what was happening.

MR MAPOMA: Did you ever report to your seniors?

MR GUMENGU: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: I'm not finished yet. You say you had problems in reporting after Mfazwe died, what problems were those?

MR GUMENGU: As the main person that I was supposed to direct to at the time was Capt Mfazwe, it became necessary for me to report to another person who was at the head office at his desk. I realised that Col Booi was in the uniform department in Sterkspruit and the other one was also a Quartermaster in Umtata, that's why I had to look for someone else. I met with Mr Mzinyathi who was at the Security Branch in Norwood, Mr Ngxabane who was in the Ngangeliso office also here in Umtata.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Mapoma.

What ranks did Mr Mzinyathi and Ngxabane hold?

MR GUMENGU: Mr Mzinyathi at the time was a Lieutenant if I'm not mistaken, or a Captain and Ngxabane was somewhere there a Captain or a Major.

JUDGE MILLER: Were they both members of the Security Branch?

MR GUMENGU: Ngxabane was in the anti-crime prevention.

JUDGE MILLER: And Mzinyathi?

MR GUMENGU: Mzinyathi was in the Security Police.

MR MAPOMA: Where is Ngxabane now?

MR GUMENGU: Ngxabane passed away in 1993 or '92, in a car accident.

MR MAPOMA: Where is Mzinyathi?

MR GUMENGU: I last saw him in the SAPS, but I don't know where he is stationed right now.

MR MAPOMA: After Mfazwe died - let me start here, I take it that Mfazwe was the head of the Security Branch at Butterworth during the time when you were reporting to him, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Mr Mfazwe was at the anti-terrorism desk. This desk does not have boundaries. He would work in the Transkei and South Africa at large, there were no boundaries in the anti-terrorism desk.

MR MAPOMA: Yes what I'm saying is that he was in charge of the Butterworth unit of the Security Branch, of Security.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And after he died, who took charge?

MR GUMENGU: I do not know. I know the person but I cannot remember him now, but he was also a person who never had a background in the anti-terrorism operations.

MR MAPOMA: The person you do not know now, are you saying you know that he did not have the background, yet you don't know who he was?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I do not know him now but I can identify him, but at the time I felt that I could not report to him because if you are a head of a Security Branch, the branch itself is divided into many divisions, we have anti-terrorism, we have education, we have unions desk, labour and everything and we are different. Though we work for the same branch I did not know him well and I could not put anything to him.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Gumengu, please let us just be short when you answer questions. What I want to get now from you, do you want this Committee to believe that the person who superseded the person you reported to directly, you don't know who he was after the person whom you reported to directly died?

MR GUMENGU: The name I do not know, but I think I can be able to identify the person because I know that he was a security police in Transkei, but I do not know his name.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, I've got no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got any questions before re-examination?

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you. When you were in court in respect of the charges that were laid against you relating to the coup, did you at any stage raise the defence that you were not part of the coup, you were in fact a security policeman working for the government, who had infiltrated the plotters and had passed on information?

MR GUMENGU: No, I never tried to use that as a defence because even at the time there were delegations from the head office and they were there to ensure me that it was not necessary for me to reveal that because I was still doing my job, therefore I had to go on.

JUDGE MILLER: You see what I find difficult to understand Mr Gumengu is the people who participated in the coup, the plotters, they had been arrested, they were detained, they were in custody, they were facing extremely serious charges which could have resulted in lengthy prison terms, which in fact they did result in, what's the point in infiltrating a group of people who are in custody? I can't understand why you would get an instruction from your superiors to carry on with the charade that you were still part of the group when the group had been caught.

MR GUMENGU: The instructions and the commitment that we have in our job if you are given a mandate by your superiors and that particular enemy is still visible and then you are sent to guard that person, you do that until you die. Even if I was sentenced to 100 years, I would be there with them until the government that I was working for does something about it. That is how we were trained, that you don't just decide when those people, your enemies are in trouble and then you decide to go back again. That was not how it worked.

JUDGE MILLER: Now you had the trial, you were convicted, you were sentenced together with other people and then you spent some time in prison, is that correct?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: Did you during that period, carry on giving information back to your superiors about what these people were talking about in prison?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: To whom did you relay information?

MR GUMENGU: I would write reports, compile reports, send them through by the police in prison and they would take them to the head of security and they would come back with feedback.

JUDGE MILLER: Now in terms of the Promotion of National Unit and Reconciliation Act, the Act which created the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, the Act which created this Amnesty Committee, we in the Amnesty Committee have been given jurisdiction to, if the criteria have been met, to grant amnesty in respect of specific offences or acts or crimes, now from what you've told us, correct me if I'm wrong, you say you didn't commit any crime or you didn't commit any offence because the whole time you were acting for the police, is that what the position is? For exactly what do you apply amnesty for?

MR GUMENGU: The reason for me to forward this amnesty application is because I was also sentenced with these people that were with me and those people were not to protect the government and the people, the public were looking at me because they thing I was trying to serve Craig Duli or my own interests. That is why I want to come here today, I want those people to know that I acknowledge the fact that they've lost and they should have peace in their hearts, they should know my exact role because my aim was not to break the law. Yes, law was broken by the group that was with me, but that was not my intention.

JUDGE MILLER: But you yourself didn't break the law, or did you?

MR GUMENGU: When that appeared in court and by the people, it appeared that I had broken the law, but as far as I know as I was serving the government I never broke any law but right now when I look back I think I broke the law because I don't know what's happening and now I think some laws have changed. And the reason for me to state that is because that's what is called the human rights violations. Yes, I was in the group that was going for the mission and the people died and property was damaged and some other things. Any other person who could see, he's looking at me as a perpetrator and that is why I'm here today to explain that. And I also want to ask for forgiveness from the people who had lost their loved ones and people whose property was damaged. They should understand the situation and forgive me. I know that it's very difficult for the government to say yes to that because that is not the process in what was happening in our units.

JUDGE MILLER: When you were at court, did you plead guilty or not guilty to the charges?

MR GUMENGU: I pleaded not guilty.

JUDGE MILLER: And what defence did you raise, just broadly speaking?

MR GUMENGU: I said I was not present.

JUDGE MILLER: Did you tell lies in court?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, I lied if you analyse the law today, but according to my duties I was not lying to the Court, I was still covering up because I was still serving under the government at the time. I was forced to be faithful and be committed to my job but according to law as you can analyse it now, you can say that I lied to the Court because I said I was not present.

JUDGE MILLER: What did you actually do to assist the people involved in the Duli coup? What actual act did you do to assist the people taking part in the coup?

MR GUMENGU: There was nothing much though I was given a mandate to check the roadblocks and do some of the things, but that never happened. But even when I came with them nothing happened though I was amongst them, nothing that I did with my own hands.

JUDGE MILLER: So on the day that the coup took place you say you came with them, what did you do, did you get in a motor vehicle and sit in the back seat and drive into Umtata, or where were you, what did you do?

MR GUMENGU: The cars were driven to Umtata and we alighted from the vehicles in Umtata, people went to different camps and I also left with them.

JUDGE MILLER: And you did nothing though.

MR GUMENGU: No, I never did anything because even the people who were in my company did not know me. I only knew Craig Duli and I was never given any instruction to do anything because the task that I was given by Craig Duli on that day was to check the roadblocks only, there was no other duty that was assigned to me. But my problem is that my car broke in Engcobo, that is why I was in their cars.

I had to be there after the mission and I had to contact them, but my car broke down at Engcobo, therefore I couldn't do that. And I was not going to do that because at the time I had already had an appointment with Mr Mzinyathi in Umtata, but I couldn't even reach my appointment on that morning of the 22nd because of the car breakdown.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: You said you were planted, you were supposed to pretend as if you were part of the Duli group, when were you supposed to stop doing that and tell the truth that in fact you were not part of the Duli group?

MR GUMENGU: There was no time-frame but your handler or the government would summon you and tell you that you are finished with this target because the docket is closed for these reasons, or the file was closed for these reasons, therefore you would be given another assignment. We worked according to targets. If one is finished with the targets because of different reasons, you would go to another target as per instruction.

MR SIBANYONI: By the government you are referring to the Holomisa government, military council?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: And you said you didn't receive a salary, they were not paying you they were only giving you what you call operational allowance.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

MR SIBANYONI: Now what reward were you supposed to get for risking your life to pretend to be part of the coup and also to pretend that you were part of the group, even during the trial to accept the long term of imprisonment? What benefit were you supposed to get out of that?

MR GUMENGU: The benefit was the pleasure of serving the people and die for the people of your country, that was the benefit, that was the reward, that's all.

MR SIBANYONI: When you got indemnity the same who were part of the Duli group got indemnity, is that so?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

MR SIBANYONI: When you applied for indemnity you never informed that Committee that you were not actually part of the Duli group, you were planted by the government?

MR GUMENGU: I was not in a position to reveal that because I was already sentenced and they knew only one thing, that I was one of them, therefore I never revealed that information.

MR SIBANYONI: When did you reveal this information for the first time?

MR GUMENGU: My application before the establishment of the Truth Commission, it was still talks going on and I forwarded an application explaining my condition and I was told to wait because there would be a body that was going to be established, the Truth Commission that is, therefore they were going to handle the matter.

MR SIBANYONI: But when did you say for the first time that in actual fact you were not in one mind with the group, you were only infiltrating them?

MR GUMENGU: The government that I was serving was aware of this because they used to visit me and I would give them reports. Secondly, the Board of Inquiry that was held in 1995 from my department, I told them about this and they were satisfied because it was exactly what they knew. The Truth Commission, even during my first application I made mention of that because I think I made my application while there was still this indemnity process, that TRC, therefore I forwarded all my statements and it was mentioned. Even during the TRC when I got the chance to forward another application, I explained the situation as it was.

MR SIBANYONI: Are there any of the people who were your superiors present and who are in a position to support your version of the story?

MR GUMENGU: I think there are people who can support my statement, Mr Mzinyathi, Mr ...(indistinct) and others like Gen Lavisa, Brig Dengane and the other people who were there and Gen Kawe. I think they can support this statement. Though I cannot be sure these days that people are working for themselves now and I don't even know the kind of life that they are living, but I think each and every person who was at the head office at the time, they knew my story.

The whole office in Butterworth where I was recruited to go and serve outside, I am quite sure that they know the story. And another person that I started to work with in 1987, Col Stofile, who is now a pensioner, I think he can support the fact that I was working differently from the other people, because since I started working in 1987 in Gauteng, I was still working for the Transkei Government, moving all over the country and going to other countries serving my government.

The person who can deny that, I don't know what could be the reason. Perhaps that person can say he does not know about the instructions because he was not present when the instruction was issued, but as far as my operations were concerned, I think the people know that I was a police officer but I was working in different places in different missions.

MR SIBANYONI: I notice that when you completed the application form you didn't give particulars, there are a lot of questions where you were saying the nature and particulars will be submitted later and your application was completed on the 30th April '97 and these particulars you completed on the 10th of June 1998. So there is a long period - or let me rephrase my question to say, why you were not prepared to give the particulars when you were making application for amnesty?

MR GUMENGU: The reason I think it's because as time goes on you try and remember well things that happened, but even now that I've testified here I cannot say for sure that I have said everything that I wanted to say, everything that happened in all these years in my service as a policeman. I can remember something tomorrow whereas the very same detail I might think that it is not as important as the facts that I would like to ask amnesty for.

MR SIBANYONI: Finally, so what you are telling is that you never had intentions to operate a coup in the Transkei, or to put it simply, you never committed any crime or offence?

MR GUMENGU: I want to tell you that my presence there was merely to serve the Transkeian people. Yes, people died, many things happened but I'm asking for forgiveness because I did all those things because of politics.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

JUDGE MILLER: Just one more question Mr Chairman.

What rank did you hold at the time, Mr Gumengu?

MR GUMENGU: When I was arrested in 1990 I was a Lieutenant, but when I left to work in the outside offices in 1987, I was a Sergeant. I only acquired the other ranks like Warrant Officer, while I was outside.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Now just on this one aspect that my colleagues have touched upon, would we understand you correctly to say to us that you never intended to break the law throughout this incident that you are talking about now?

MR GUMENGU: That was never my intention.

CHAIRPERSON: You were doing your official duties as a member of the then Transkeian Security Force.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: You had done nothing - on the day of the abortive coup, you had done nothing to assist the plotters to execute their plan.

MR GUMENGU: Not at all, I never did anything to assist them. Yes, I was amongst them.

CHAIRPERSON: And when they mandated you to look out of police roadblocks and the other things, you used that opportunity to actually report back to your superiors, would that be correct? You never looked out for roadblocks, you actually reported back to your superiors?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: In fact right up to the very last moment you were working against the interest of the plotters.

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And have I heard you correctly to say that the reason why you are here today is simply just to explain to people that that was the true position, you were not part of these people? Is that the reason? In fact as I understand it, is that the only reason why you are here today?

MR GUMENGU: Yes, that is the main reason and I also want to ask for forgiveness to the people who are looking at me as the person who is a perpetrator and secondly, as a person who had served the government for so many years without giving me my money. If the Committee - if it is possible, please I would like to get that money. And as I was convicted I would like to request if possible my fingerprints to be erased so that any criminal record against my name be removed.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Malan, any re-examination?

MR MALAN: Thank you Sir, no re-examination.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Gumengu, you're excused.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes Mr Malan, who is next.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman, Mr Nombanga.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Nombanga, just indicate to us if you hear the interpretation over your headset.

MR NOMBANGA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then I want you to stand to take the oath please. Are your full names Fundikile Blackie Nombanga?

FUNDIKILE BLACKIE NOMBANGA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please be seated. Yes, Mr Malan.

EXAMINATION BY MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Nombanga, due to practical problems we were not in a position to furnish this Committee with a written affidavit, would you please in your own words inform the Committee of your involvement with the abortive Craig Duli coup and beginning with the background where you enlisted with the police and so forth.

MR NOMBANGA:

CHAIRPERSON: Just a minute. Where is the technician? Why are we having this disturbance on the headset, it's very disturbing, please.

INTERPRETER: It's not in the booth.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let's try again we'll see. Alright sorry, carry on.

MR NOMBANGA:

MR MALAN: Did you act in a similar way as the previous witness, Mr Gumengu? Were you in other words planted to monitor the proceedings?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Who gave you the direct instructions?

MR NOMBANGA: It was Col Booi.

MR MALAN: Were you at that stage aware of Mr Gumengu's presence and the capacity in his presence with the Duli people?

MR NOMBANGA: I was not aware of the fact that Mr Gumengu was there because I had my own land that I was using.

MR MALAN: Do you know of any other persons who were in a similar position as yourself and Mr Gumengu?

MR NOMBANGA: There were members of the Transkei Intelligence Service that I was working with. Those are the people that I knew in my line.

MR MALAN: You were arrested for this coup attempt on the 26th of January 1990, is that correct?

MR NOMBANGA: I was arrested because of the allegations, allegations of being involved in this coup. Though this coup took place while I was already 10 months in jail.

MR MALAN: And yet you were convicted and sentenced to seven years imprisonment, is that correct?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Did you raise any defence at your trial?

MR NOMBANGA: I tried but I was never successful.

MR MALAN: What was your defence?

MR NOMBANGA: I was saying that I was there because I was working and Col Booi was the one who gave the instructions.

MR MALAN: So you revealed the true purpose of your involvement, is that correct?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MALAN: Was it backed up by Col Booi or any other official that could vouch for your version of the story?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, Col Booi was a witness and Gen Chelela who was also in the Security Branch at the time also went there to give evidence.

MR MALAN: Why were you yet in spite of the evidence then convicted of this coup attempt?

MR NOMBANGA: Truly speaking even today that is still a problem to me, I still have questions that I cannot answer because of the evidence that was given by the government people there. That evidence was a bit twisted.

And to the people who are listening, that the court though it was like that, the Court found me guilty. For example one of the witnesses, Capt Nyani after this coup in 1990, 22nd, he said I went on holding meetings with Mr Mbotoli, that is one of the signs that he was not telling the truth, but the Court found me guilty on top of that.

MR MALAN: Do you have any special request - should this Committee find that you fall within the ambit of amnesty application and they would grant it, do you have any special request for them?

MR NOMBANGA: I have one request to put forward, it's to have my fingerprints cleared because that is also a hiccup in my business and after that I left the Police Force because I could not see myself with them, therefore I tried my business, therefore that is a bit of a hiccup on my side, the fingerprints problem.

MR MALAN: In what kind of business are you involved?

MR NOMBANGA: I am in the company of Project Management in the rural development.

MR MALAN: Do you have anything further that you would wish to lay in the midst of this Committee?

MR NOMBANGA: I do not know how it came about for me to be found guilty, but though the situation is like that, but if the Commission can consider my application, at least if I can get rid of that criminal record. And I'm even asking myself questions, how did the Magistrate come to that kind of a decision.

MR MALAN: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Malan. Mr Nodada, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA: Just a few, Mr Chairperson.

Fundikile, when you were actually filling in your application form you were required in paragraph 9 to furnish sufficient particulars of the act, omissions or offences associated with a political objective in respect of which amnesty is sought, including dates, places and nature thereof and the names of any other persons involved and in (i), you stated that the acts or omissions or offences that you are applying for amnesty in respect of was high treason, do you remember that?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: And you were also required to fill in the date or dates on which you committed that offence, but you didn't do so. Do you perhaps remember the date when you committed that offence of high treason?

MR NOMBANGA: The coup took place on the 22nd of November 1989.

INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon ...

MR NOMBANGA: Which is the 22nd of November 1990.

MR NODADA: And where were you on the 22nd of November 1990?

MR NOMBANGA: I was in prison in Mxandule.

MR NODADA: And how did you commit this offence whilst you were in prison on that date?

MR NOMBANGA: Even today that is still a myth to me but the Magistrate found me guilty. I was associated with the act, that's what was said, I was associated with the act.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Nodada, if I could just clear up something on this point.

You keep saying that the Magistrate found you guilty, were you not a co-accused in the trial in the then Supreme Court, which was presided over by a judge, or were you in a separate trial before a Magistrate?

MR NOMBANGA: I was with Mtjali and Gobinxa at the Regional Court and the presiding officer was Mr Mgaju.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes thank you, I just wanted to clear that up Mr Nodada.

MR NOMBANGA: I was never called to appear in the Supreme Court, except for the appeal.

MR NODADA: So you noted an appeal against the finding of the Magistrate in the Regional Court.

MR NOMBANGA: Yes.

MR NODADA: And what was the outcome of the appeal?

MR NOMBANGA: Gobinxa was removed in the case, I was left with the first accused and myself as the co-accused and the sentence was confirmed.

MR NODADA: Alright. Do you consider yourself to have committed the offence of high treason on the 22nd of November 1990?

MR NOMBANGA: I was never involved because I was in prison. I never heard rumours, I never heard anything, I was not implicated.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry Mr Nodada, I keep interrupting you, but I'd just like to clear up something while it's still in my mind.

What Mr Nodada referred you to now was in your application you say that you're applying for amnesty in respect of high treason, now you've said that you were convicted in the Regional Court, are you saying that the Regional Court convicted you of high treason? Or what precisely was the charge? Because charges of treason go to the Supreme Court or the High Court, not to the Magistrate's Court.

MR NOMBANGA: Our case was held at the Regional Court by Mr Mgaju, it never reached the Supreme Court. We were charged for treason and we were also sentenced to that effect by Mr Mgaju.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you, Mr Nodada.

MR NODADA: Are you certain that this high treason relates to the incident of the 22nd of November 1990?

MR NOMBANGA: According to the charge sheet it was said that all the offences that took place from 1989 April, they culminate to the act of the 22nd of November 1990, while I was already in prison on the 22nd of November 1990.

MR SIBANYONI: It would appear there were two occasions where there was a planning for a coup in Transkei, is my understanding correct?

MR NOMBANGA: No, that is not true Sir, but what happened was this. A certain group of people attempted the coup in April 1989 but nothing was every successful up until such time I was arrested in January 1990 and no people could be charged because of the evidence at hand. But when I was in prison, 10 months in prison, November 1990, 22nd, that is when this aborted coup took place while I was already in prison, myself, Mtjali and the others. Therefore we were associated with this attempted coup of the 22nd November, though we were already in prison when this attempted coup took place.

MR SIBANYONI: For what offence were you in prison?

MR NOMBANGA: They said it was treason, conspiracy to commit treason.

MR SIBANYONI: What type of treason, not to overthrow the Transkei Government?

MR NOMBANGA: It was never mentioned in details but when this incident, attempted coup of the 22nd took place, it was associated with this one. And as the people who were arrested in January were only taken in court but after the people who were involved in the coup had already appeared in court, so we were the last people to go to court after the interdict was issued against the government.

MR SIBANYONI: Was Col Duli also arrested for the activities of April '89?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, Duli was arrested in 1989 and I'm the one who took him to prison.

MR SIBANYONI: But not for this same offence for which you appeared in court, and for which you were convicted?

MR NOMBANGA: At the time, I think it was April on the 27th when we took him from his home to Lusikisiki, he was associated with the people who were attempting to overthrow the government. I took him to Lusikisiki Prison, he was released on interdict, December 1989. He was released and then he disappeared and I was arrested on the 26th of January, a month after his release.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you. I don't know whether it clears the picture or whether there's more confusion.

CHAIRPERSON: You were awaiting trial since your arrest on the 26th of January 1990, I assume.

MR NOMBANGA: I was just held there but nothing was said about a trial.

CHAIRPERSON: You were just detained?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were only charged and taken to court after the other coup plotters were tried in the Supreme Court? There case was already finished when you were taken to the Regional Court, three of you?

MR NOMBANGA: We were arrested in January and they were not present. We remained in prison for 18 months in solitary confinement and we challenged through the interdict. While we forwarded the interdict they were already arrested in 1991 and they appeared in court, but we were still under detention without appearing to the court. After the interdict we only appeared on the 30th of September 1991. Just the preliminary appearance at court. ...(no English interpretation)

We got arrested in 1990, January. The people who tried to overthrow the government in that year had disappeared, we didn't know where they were and the coup took place again in November 1990. We were 10 months in prison. They appeared in June after they were arrested. They appeared in the Supreme Court. We were still in detention at the time.

The interdict was issued through which the government was challenged because of our detention. It was said that we should be released. That was the judgment of the interdict. They say either we are taken to court not later than the 30th of September or we would be released. That's what actually happened, is that we were taken to court on the 30th of September 1991.

And the people who had overthrown the government on the 22nd, they had appeared in court so many times. We were taken to the Regional Court, not the Supreme Court.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and you were tried separately from those people.

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, that is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you.

MR NODADA: So when you were actually sentenced on the 22nd of June 1992, to undergo seven years imprisonment, was the case against the 18 persons who were involved in the attempt on the 22nd of November 1990, still pending?

MR NOMBANGA: It was still pending.

MR NODADA: Was it alleged that you had by your actions or omission, also partaken in the coup that took place on the 22nd of November 1990?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, we were associated with those acts. They decided to charge us the same way, but they were taken to the Supreme Court and we were taken to the Regional Court.

MR NODADA: I see. You are appearing here today in an application for amnesty, are you basing this application on the conviction by the Magistrate or on your personal convictions about an offence that you personally committed?

MR NOMBANGA: I forwarded this application because I would request that my criminal record be erased because of the allegations and the Magistrate found me guilty. What I'm asking this Commission to do is to remove the criminal record because it is a hiccup for me in my job or my business.

MR NODADA: Is that all? Is that the only reason that you are applying for amnesty, you want your name to be cleared in the criminal bureau?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: And otherwise you do not claim to have been motivated by any political conviction on your part?

MR NOMBANGA: As a person who was working under politics, certain politics in Transkei I can say this was politically motivated because politics was the military council and all these attempted coups. That was all politically motivated.

MR NODADA: I'll go back again to paragraph 9 of your application form, sub-subparagraph ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI: Maybe before that - but you never attempted any coup yourself, is that so?

MR NOMBANGA: I never attempted any coup, that is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: Or conspired. Did you plan any coup?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, I was once in a meeting where that was discussed, but I was not there to serve their interest, I was there because I was working.

MR NODADA: Alright. I was referring you to paragraph 9 sub-subparagraph (iv) where you were required to actually state the nature and particulars of the offence that you committed and I see that you have drawn a line across that paragraph, you actually wrote T.B.C., what does that mean?

JUDGE MILLER: Perhaps if you can take a look at page 82 of the documents. What Mr Nodada is referring to is paragraph 9(iv), the bottom one where there is a line and T.B.C. written there and he's asking you what does this T.B.C. mean.

MR NOMBANGA: I do not know this. I am not sure about this T.B.C.

MR NODADA: Did you personally complete this form yourself?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, some parts of the form I've completed and signed.

MR NODADA: Now let's go further to page 3 and page 4, you've got the same thing ...(intervention)

MR SIBANYONI: Sorry, before you move from that - did you also write this abbreviation, T.B.C.? Is this your handwriting?

MR NOMBANGA: I don't think so. I don't think this is my handwriting.

MR SIBANYONI: You know your handwriting, is this your handwriting or not?

MR MALAN: Sorry to make any interruptions, I might just assist the Committee here with what happened here or transpired.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please.

MR MALAN: As I can recollect it was on the 9th of May, a day before the cut-off date for the applications, we were with several other people in the Holiday Inn at East London and Mr Chris McAdam said that we must fill in the forms and leave the details out, the TRC will at some stage request further particulars. And in filling the forms there were some of the TRC people assisting the applicants and we rushed this off to Cape Town the following day and beat the cut-off date by I think six hours. I think that's where this muddle-up might have originated.

JUDGE MILLER: And no-one knows what T.B.C. means?

MR MALAN: Unfortunately. I've tried to ascertain and it's not my handwriting, it might be one of the other people, I have not the foggiest idea. But it should be something in ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: To be - something.

MR SIBANYONI: To be completed.

MR MALAN: To be completed - ja, I think to be completed is the correct thing - at a later stage.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Mr Nodada.

MR NODADA: Alright, I will proceed further.

In short, is my understanding correct that you are not in a position to make a full disclosure of the events of the 22nd of November 1990, when the coup actually took place and people were killed and property damaged, because you were not involved and you know nothing about it? Is that your position?

MR NOMBANGA: I can say I know nothing about the coup that took place on the 22nd of November, I heard that over the radio.

MR NODADA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nodada. Ms Dambuza, any questions?

MS DAMBUZA: No questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Sir.

When did you join the Transkei Police Force?

MR NOMBANGA: I joined on the 6th of January 1982.

MR MAPOMA: And the Security Branch, when did you join it?

MR NOMBANGA: 1985, March 1985.

MR MAPOMA: And since 1985 onwards, your main concentration in your duty was to combat the acts of the people you referred to as the terrorists, is that correct?

MR NOMBANGA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And those were the members mainly of the ANC and the PAC, is that correct?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, that is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And you were protecting the government led by Matanzima then and later on by Stella Sigcau, is that correct?

MR NOMBANGA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And those governments were against the ANC and the PAC, as well as what you were doing?

MR NOMBANGA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: Now when during the 1989 and 1990 period, there erupted information that Holomisa was leaning towards the ANC, you were still in the Police Force, is that correct?

MR NOMBANGA: That is correct.

MR MAPOMA: And during that period, were you still eager to serve the government of Holomisa?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, I was still eager.

MR MAPOMA: That Holomisa was leaning towards the ANC, are you saying did not affect your commitment in serving his government?

MR NOMBANGA: At that time when all this started that was not clear from April 1989 and there was nothing that was affecting the Security Police that could lead us to be against Mr Holomisa on what he was doing, at this time from April until towards the end of 1989. At this time that I was involved.

MR MAPOMA: When actually did you in the Security Force become uncomfortable with the government of Holomisa, if at all you did?

MR NOMBANGA: It was until the end of 1989. To me there was nothing I could say that was being done to show that we were against the government. Yes, there was conflict here and there but that was not due to the fact that he had joined the ANC, but those were the things that erupted in the office. But he didn't come out at that time, we were not sure of what was happening in his personal life at that time.

MR MAPOMA: Is there any stage during your service in the Security Police of Transkei, when you felt uncomfortable with the political stance taken by the Holomisa government?

MR NOMBANGA: I found out about that when I was in prison, when I would meet other members that were still in the Police Force. I was a prisoner at the time.

MR MAPOMA: What is it actually that you found out?

MR NOMBANGA: They said that things were different from when the organisations were banned and when they were outside, when the organisations were still operating outside. So they didn't know what exactly they were doing, what their job was, they didn't know whether to fight against the organisation they are doing the right thing or the wrong thing. So they were not sure, they had no direction at that time. They were not given the direction by the government.

JUDGE MILLER: I think what Mr Mapoma wants to know, prior to your arrest did you have any dissatisfaction or grievance with the government of Transkei, the Holomisa government?

MR NOMBANGA: No, that was not the case at that time.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got anything?

JUDGE MILLER: Mr Nombanga, I'm still not quite clear. You're saying that you had a meeting in Port Shepstone with Mr Mbotoli, part of your duties, you were performing your duties as a member of the Security Police when you had that meeting which involved Mr Mbotoli, is that correct?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, that is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: And did you meet him after that again? -Mr Mbotoli.

MR NOMBANGA: No, I didn't meet with him after that because what would happen was that I had to find out about his movements so that he can be arrested and taken to the Transkei. So I didn't meet with him after that.

JUDGE MILLER: So you just had the one meeting. Did you break the law at all, did you commit any crime?

MR NOMBANGA: According to my knowledge Chairperson, I'm not sure whether I committed any crime because I was told to meet with Mbotoli to monitor his movements, so that I can set a trap so that he can be arrested. When I was charged, that meeting was the main issue. What I did wrong was to see him in Port Shepstone. And at that time I had no jurisdiction to do anything on the South African soil at the time.

JUDGE MILLER: Did you report to your superior officers about that meeting?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, I reported to Col Booi.

JUDGE MILLER: Because I see from the documents that have been placed before us, one of the charges was that you failed to report information relating to foreign agents who were planning to overthrow the country. Is that what the charge was? I'm looking here at page 90, it's in the handwriting. It seems to be the Magistrate's notes or something like that. Was that one of the charges, failing to report information?

MR NOMBANGA: Yes, it was one of the charges or it was also incorporated in the charges because the investigator who was investigating the case after it was removed from Col Booi, said that I had to contact him, the investigator that is, because he said that he was the one who was in charge at the time above Col Booi.

JUDGE MILLER: So you deny that you're guilty of that charge, because you say you reported to your superior officers, is that correct?

MR NOMBANGA: I reported to Col Booi, so the fact that I was found guilty about that, I still don't understand it.

JUDGE MILLER: And then I see on page 105 of the papers you were found guilty of conspiracy to commit treason. Did you ever in fact conspire to commit treason? Did you plot to commit treason, at any stage?

MR NOMBANGA: I was involved in this conspiracy or in the planning.

JUDGE MILLER: What rank did you hold at the time of your arrest, Mr Nombanga?

MR NOMBANGA: I was a Warrant Officer.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Malan?

MR MALAN: No re-examination, thank you Mr Chairman, that concludes our evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nombanga, you're excused, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: We intend to continue a bit later than usual today and for that reason we will now take a short adjournment. We will stand down for 10 minutes.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Dambuza?

MS DAMBUZA: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I call Mazizi Ntisana to the witness box.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand to take the oath. And give your full names for the record first please.

MAZIZI THOMAS NTISANA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please be seated. Yes, Mr Dambuza.

EXAMINATION BY MS DAMBUZA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Mazizi, are you an applicant in these proceedings in terms of Section 18 and 20 of Act number 3 of 1995?

MR NTISANA: That is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry before you proceed, Ms Dambuza - Mr Ntisana, is Sidwell Mzwamadoda Ntisana not you?

MR NTISANA: No, it's not me.

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.

JUDGE MILLER: We have an application from Mr SM Ntisana, Bongweni, Mxutu, Gumengu - oh yes, so it's number 5.

MS DAMBUZA: It is number 5, Mr Chairman, thanks.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry. Thank you. Sorry about that, thank you.

MS DAMBUZA: Now I was asking if you are an applicant in terms of Sections 18 and 20 of the Act number 3 of 1995?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that you have deposed to an affidavit in support of your application?

MR NTISANA: That is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: Is it correct that in that affidavit you say that from 1986 you were a member of the Transkei Parliament, under Ms Stella Sigcau?

MR NTISANA: That is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: And that during that period the parliament of Ms Sigcau was overthrown by Gen Holomisa?

MR NTISANA: That is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: And that you say that after six months of Gen Holomisa's council on office you went to him demanding that a civilian government be put back in place.

MR NTISANA: That is correct, that's what we did.

MS DAMBUZA: Did that happen?

MR NTISANA: No, it did not happen.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, Mr Dambuza, just to get clarity -you say you went and then you say "that's what we did", did you go as a member of a group or did you do this personally, Mr Ntisana? - when you approached Gen Holomisa about the establishment of a civilian government.

MR NTISANA: I think we were about 30 in that group.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, Mr Dambuza.

MS DAMBUZA: And what was Gen Holomisa's response to that?

MR NTISANA: He said he was not ready for that, he was still busy ...(indistinct)

MS DAMBUZA: And what did you do thereafter?

MR NTISANA: We waited but we were arrested one by one.

MS DAMBUZA: Is it correct that it is during this period that you discussed with Col Craig Duli the idea of a coup d'état against the government of Gen Holomisa?

MR NTISANA: It was after he was released from prison in Port Elizabeth, it was after a while.

MS DAMBUZA: After who was released?

MR NTISANA: After Mr Duli and Mr Mbotoli were released from Port Elizabeth.

MS DAMBUZA: What were your reasons of wanting a civilian government to be put back in place?

MR NTISANA: We wanted the people's government that would be elected democratically by the people and who would be mandated by the people.

MS DAMBUZA: Now is it correct that when Col Duli was released from jail he gave you instructions to contact persons in the Transkei Defence Force?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct, that happened in January 1990.

MS DAMBUZA: Did he tell you what he wanted these people for and if so, what was the reason?

MR NTISANA: He didn't tell us why he wanted these people, he just said that he was out of jail, he was going to go back to his work and he was working with these people.

MS DAMBUZA: Who did you contact?

MR NTISANA: It was Bongo Ndamase, Nzwamadoda Ntisana, Hlumelo Mxutu, Bongweni, Mr Bongweni.

MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that you took these people to meet Col Duli?

MR NTISANA: They asked me to take them to him and I did.

MS DAMBUZA: Do you know the contents of their communication with Col Duli?

MR NTISANA: I was not present in their meeting, I just dropped them off and then I left.

MS DAMBUZA: Were you aware that Gen Duli was planning a coup?

MR NTISANA: At that time I did not know.

MS DAMBUZA: When did you become aware?

MR NTISANA: I became aware after he told me that these people that he called in that meeting were arrested.

MS DAMBUZA: Are those the people that you have just mentioned?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: Did he tell you the reasons why they had been arrested?

MR NTISANA: He told me after warning me that I should go outside because I was also going to be arrested, he told me that I should go to him so that he could tell me why they arrested. I then knew why they were arrested.

MS DAMBUZA: Were you of the opinion that it would be in the interests of Transkei if the military council government came to an end?

MR NTISANA: I was quite sure of that.

MS DAMBUZA: Did you then partake in the plans for the coup d'état?

MR NTISANA: I was part of those plans, but not on the side of the military.

MS DAMBUZA: Can you briefly tell the Tribunal the extent of your involvement or what acts you did.

MR NTISANA: My involvement or my role in the 1990 coup was that after Mr Duli was released from prison and I was also outside the Transkei, I was running away from being arrested and I was in East London, Mr Duli wanted to come back to the Transkei, he said that the soldiers were calling him to come back and to take over the government. And we would discuss that and I said to him we had no interest in the military government.

He then said that he was not interested in the military government either, he wanted the government to go back to the people, to be the people's government. And at that time we agreed on the fact that if he was going to come here as the military, he would here to take over the government, but he did not give us details, he did not give me details about how he was going to do this. But what I said is that I did not want to be involved in something that would involve, or that would make people to lose their lives. He said that he did not have weapons, the police had taken his weapons.

MS DAMBUZA: Did you foresee any bloodshed in the intended coup?

MR NTISANA: I was sure that there was not going to be any bloodshed because he said that he did not have weapons with him, he said that he was called by his friends inside. So I was sure that he had no weapons, so because of that there would be no bloodshed.

MS DAMBUZA: What then did you do in pursuance of this goal of the coup d'état?

MR NTISANA: First of all, inside me I knew that we would take over, we can take over the government back to the people and we had already agreed that there would be no bloodshed. He then called me on this particular day, the day that he was planning to overthrow the government. He said that I must take people from Queenstown. There were three people, I had to take them with my van and he told me that I must not take their route, I must take the Maclear route and he would contact me now and then over the radio.

MS DAMBUZA: Did he tell you what route he himself would follow?

MR NTISANA: No, he did not tell me.

MS DAMBUZA: And then what was to happen to these people that you were going to pick up from Queenstown?

MR NTISANA: They would be with me, they were not going to take any part to what was going to happen to that operation he was going to do. They did not have weapons with them, we did not have weapons with us.

MS DAMBUZA: And then what happened after you picked them up?

MR NTISANA: I picked them up and then I drove from Queenstown to Maclear and to Tsolo and I would contact him over the radio and talk to him and tell him that I was on the way to Tsolo. And after that communication there was a communication breakdown when I was in Tsolo.

MS DAMBUZA: And what did you do when the communication broke down?

MR NTISANA: After the communication breakdown I went around Tsolo because we were tired, we wanted to sleep. We slept for a while and then after realising that we had this problem, we decided to go back to Maclear because we were already in the Transkei, in Tsolo and that is where we did not want to be arrested. We were running away from the Transkei, so we decided to go back to Maclear.

MS DAMBUZA: And then when you got to Maclear, what did you do?

MR NTISANA: When we got to Maclear it was early hours of the morning, it was in the morning and we heard over the radio that Col Duli went to the Transkei and things did not go according to his way at that time.

MS DAMBUZA: What do you mean when you say things did not go according to plan?

MR NTISANA: According to what we heard over the radio it was clear that he did not get what he had promised to get, there was some conflict that was happening.

MS DAMBUZA: And what did you do on hearing that?

MR NTISANA: After hearing that I took these people, those that were with me, I took them back to Queenstown where I found them. I then went back to East London where I was staying.

MS DAMBUZA: What was your actual involvement going to be in the process? - that is the coup itself.

MR NTISANA: My role was on the second plan because there was going to be another operation, another military operation that we termed Operation Sacrifice, that was going to be led by Mr Duli. And there was another one, Operation Dawn, whereby after everything was done, after the soldiers were taken back to their camp, I would then take steps to build a new government.

MS DAMBUZA: What exactly were you - how were you going to facilitate that?

MR NTISANA: When the soldiers were taken back to the camps and the Security Forces were deployed and the soldiers, my job would have been to call the kings and the chiefs from Sterkspruit, Maluti, Emboleni, Chingoland. I would call them and they would come together with the paramount chiefs and the State President was going to be involved and would give instructions that the State President ask the judge for them to be the custodians of the Transkei so that there could be an interim cabinet that would rule the Transkei. And we were going to give the President a sick leave after we had taken over. I was going to stay in that house until things became more clearer.

MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that you had in your possession tapes which would be transmitted over the radio to advise the general public of the take-over of the coup?

MR NTISANA: Yes, I had those tapes with me, but I destroyed them after this attempted coup, after our plan failed.

MS DAMBUZA: Did you become aware at any stage that during the course of the attempt of the coup there were some people who died?

MR NTISANA: I heard that. That was a very painful thing because after all those attempts there were some people that lost their lives.

MS DAMBUZA: What eventually happened to yourself after you destroyed the tapes and went back to East London?

MR NTISANA: I then went to Johannesburg and while I was in Johannesburg I was lured to go to Durban but I escaped and then I went back to Johannesburg. There were spies that were supposed to kidnap me. I went back to East London, whereby I asked the police or I told the military government that I was in East London, if there was something they needed I was available. So I went back and I handed myself over here in the Transkei, so that I can face charges if that was to be.

MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that then you were prosecuted, convicted and sentenced to 11 years imprisonment?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: How many years did you actually stay in prison?

MR NTISANA: One year and six months.

MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that you were released in 1995 on presidential parole?

MR NTISANA: That is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: Are you now applying for amnesty for the acts which you have just outlined to the Committee?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct, I am here today to humble myself, especially to the families who lost their loved ones. Even though I just stated that I was not part of that military operation, but I was involved in the planning of that and after all this I would have been ...(indistinct). So the fact that people lost their lives, that is very painful to me. And I had a decision that I was going to represent and protect people but it happened that instead of protecting them, some of them lost their lives.

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Dambuza. Yes, Mr Nodada.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mazizi, do you - rather, have you disclosed everything that you wanted to disclose to this Committee?

MR NTISANA: I tried, Sir.

MR NODADA: And you are aware that the Act that governs these hearings demands and requires that one should make a complete disclosure of one's involvement in any commission of an offence.

JUDGE MILLER: It says a full disclosure of all relevant facts.

MR NODADA: All relevant facts, thank you, Sir.

JUDGE MILLER: Yes, we don't need to know every single minute detail if it's irrelevant.

MR NODADA: Yes.

You are aware of that Mr Ntisana?

MR NTISANA: Yes, I'm aware.

MR NODADA: I believe that you are the person who actually recruited your brother Mzwandile Ntisana, is that correct?

MR NTISANA: I recruited him but I was not aware.

MR NODADA: You were not aware of what?

MR NTISANA: I was not aware that the intention was to overthrow the government at the time I was recruiting him. I spoke to Craig Duli after he was released from prison in Port Elizabeth, not in Lusikisiki, at about June and this incident happened in January.

MR NODADA: When you recruited Mzwandile and others, what did you think they were required for by Col Duli?

MR NTISANA: To me it was enough for him to say that he wanted them because he wanted to go back to work and I can say that all these people together with Craig Duli, from time to time they would go and visit me because I had two brothers that were working for the Military Intelligence. So it was common for him to visit me at home.

MR NODADA: Now when Craig Duli was released from custody, what were his conditions of release, do you know?

MR NTISANA: I don't know.

MR NODADA: When he said to you he wanted to come back to Transkei and work, did you know what he had been working as before he was detained?

MR NTISANA: Yes, I knew.

MR NODADA: What was he working as?

MR NTISANA: He was working for the Military Intelligence.

MR NODADA: Was he not the second-in-command to Gen Bantu Holomisa, as a Chairman of the military council?

MR NTISANA: That is correct.

MR NODADA: And you knew that when he was detained it was because he had fallen into some disagreement with Gen Holomisa.

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct, I noticed that.

MR NODADA: Did you then ask him what he was going to come back to Transkei and work as?

MR NTISANA: He said that he was going back to his office, he was expelled.

JUDGE MILLER: So what did you think Mr Ntisane, that he was going back to become second-in-charge again of the military council? Is that what you think when he said he was going back to his office?

MR NTISANA: I believed what he said because he was a very clever man.

MR NODADA: Right. You were a member of parliament during the previous government under the leadership of Stella Sigcau, is that correct?

MR NTISANA: That is correct, Sir.

MR NODADA: And after that government had been overthrown by the military council under Holomisa, what did you become? Or rather, did you become anything in the government that took over?

MR NTISANA: I refused the offer of taking part in the government.

MR NODADA: So you did not become a member of the State.

MR NTISANA: In the Holomisa government?

MR NODADA: Wherever. Immediately after your being a member of parliament came to an end, you just became an ordinary citizen like any other Transkeian citizen?

MR NTISANA: I was an ordinary member of the Transkei and I refused an offer to go to the embassy in Port Elizabeth.

MR NODADA: I see. And you were not pleased when you discontinued to be an MP, as a result of the coup at the instance of Bantu Holomisa and others.

MR NTISANA: I still want to be the member of the parliament, even now.

MR NODADA: Yes I know that, but you were not pleased when that came to an end abruptly.

MR NTISANA: No, I was not pleased.

MR NODADA: When you were a member of parliament, were you not serving your own interests as a person?

MR NTISANA: No, I was serving the interest of the people.

MR NODADA: Is it correct that you were serving the interests of the people as well as your own interests?

MR NTISANA: I don't understand the question.

MR NODADA: Is it not correct that you were not only serving the interests of the people of Transkei, but you were also serving your own personal interests?

MR NTISANA: I was serving the interests of the people and I was amongst those people.

MR NODADA: What I want to establish is whether the interests that you were serving were to the exclusion of your personal interests.

JUDGE MILLER: Sorry, what do you mean by that Mr Nodada? We know that he was an MP and going with that position is some status, some remuneration, certain benefits.

MR NODADA: Those are the items that ...(intervention)

JUDGE MILLER: But I mean we know that that happens with every MP, you can get an MP who is an MP and has no interest in serving the people, he's only doing it because he's getting a salary and he likes the status. You get other MPs who find the question of the salary and status irrelevant and they want to do it to serve the people. So I think if you can just make it more clear to Mr Ntisane what you're trying to get at, because obviously everybody who does a job, any job - I'm doing a job, we're all doing a job here and we're doing it for the interests of the process, but it's obviously in a certain respect, we're doing it in our interest because it's our job. If we didn't do it we wouldn't eat at night or have a roof over our head.

MR NODADA: I quite appreciate that Judge, I'm quite indebted to you for that ...(intervention)

MR NTISANA: Am I supposed to answer?

MR NODADA: No. No, the judge has just intervened on your behalf so that I can clarify my question. And the question that I want to get an answer to is whether you fall in the category of those MPs who also had an interest in the income, that is the remuneration as well as the status, or you really didn't care about what you earned or the benefit that you got out of that, you were just concerned about your people?

MR NTISANA: It is true that I'm a different person, I am a person who is willing to work for the community without any pay, as I am doing right now.

MR NODADA: Alright, let's come back to the planning for this coup. Is it correct that Col Craig Duli was living in Stutterheim after he had been released from prison in Port Elizabeth? He settled down in Stutterheim.

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: Before he was released from prison did you ever visit him when he was still in detention?

MR NTISANA: Yes, I did visit him in Port Elizabeth.

MR NODADA: When exactly did this association between you and Col Craig Duli begin? - in relation to your status as an MP and also to his status as the second-in-command of the military council in the Transkei.

MR NTISANA: The association with Craig Duli started in 1975. I was a businessman in Lebode and his in-laws were in Lebode and when his wife got injured in my shop, that was when we started to know each other and we are somewhat related with his wife.

MR NODADA: I see. Let's come to the day of this incident. You say you were instructed to drive from East London and go and pick up some persons in Queenstown, who were those persons?

MR NTISANA: They were being called Ntati, they were from Lesotho. One of them if I still remember was Makobokobo, but they were referred to as Ntati because they were from Lesotho.

MR NODADA: Is it correct they were members of the Lesotho Liberation Army?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is what was said.

MR NODADA: And they were soldiers?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that was what was said, even though Makobokobo was over 70 years old.

MR NODADA: How did you establish that he was over 70 years old?

MR NTISANA: I knew that during the court case in court.

MR NODADA: You did not know these three persons before you met them on the 22nd?

MR NTISANA: No, I did not know them before.

MR NODADA: Were you told the purpose of picking up those persons from Queenstown, why you had to go and pick them up?

MR NTISANA: No, he did not tell me the purpose, he told me when I was in Queenstown that I had to pick up these people and that he was going to Transkei. All the time he didn't tell me, he kept this inside.

MR NODADA: So you were still in East London when you were told to go to Queenstown and pick up those persons.

MR NTISANA: Yes.

MR NODADA: And from Queenstown, where were you going to take them?

MR NTISANA: He told me to drive with them. As they were soldiers, I think they were bodyguards, but they didn't have anything with them.

MR NODADA: They were bodyguards for who?

MR NTISANA: They were supposed to be my bodyguards if they had weapons, but if they did not have weapons we would be in the same car, they would be like me.

MR NODADA: Now when you say they were supposed to be your bodyguards, what do you mean? Were you told that they were going to be your bodyguards?

MR NTISANA: I'm not saying they were bodyguards, what I'm saying is as I was told that they were soldiers, if they had weapons I would say that he had given me bodyguards but because they had no weapons with them, they were just together with me.

MR NODADA: How did you know that they didn't have weapons?

MR NTISANA: Because they were with me. If they had weapons I would have seen them.

MR NODADA: You didn't search for weapons?

MR NTISANA: No, I didn't search for weapons.

MR NODADA: Right. Apart from picking up those persons from Queenstown, where were you actually en-route to?

MR NTISANA: He told me to take the Maclear road and I would get instructions from him.

MR NODADA: Where were you actually - what was your destination when you left East London? I understand the route, but what was your destination?

MR NTISANA: He would give me instructions of my destination.

MR NODADA: And whose motor vehicle were you driving?

MR NTISANA: It was mine.

MR NODADA: And the one that was driven by Col Duli, or in which he was a passenger, if he was a passenger?

MR NTISANA: It was the one that was driven by me.

MR NODADA: Now when you left East London, were you driving along with Col Duli?

MR NTISANA: No, I was alone.

MR NODADA: And you were alone when you left East London and then you met three guys, at least three members of the Liberation Army of Lesotho, in Queenstown?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: And where was Duli all that time?

MR NTISANA: He had already left.

MR NODADA: Left what place?

MR NTISANA: Queenstown.

MR NODADA: So before you got to Queenstown, Col Duli had been there in Queenstown but left before you arrived?

MR NTISANA: Col Duli left me in East London and he went to Queenstown, when I arrived in Queenstown he had already left Queenstown.

MR NODADA: And what transport was he using when he left East London, going to Queenstown?

MR NTISANA: If I still remember well he was using his Mercedes Benz, the grey one.

MR NODADA: But what did you mean when you said you were, he was driving, I mean you were driving the same car as he was? What did you actually say when I asked you what transport, or whose motor vehicle Col Duli was driving?

MR NTISANA: I did not say that.

MR NODADA: What did you say?

MR NTISANA: I said I was driving my own car, I was not with him.

MR NODADA: I see, maybe I didn't understand you correctly. Anyway, did you ask him where he was going to from Queenstown?

MR NTISANA: Who?

MR NODADA: Col Duli.

MR NTISANA: When I arrived in Queenstown he was not there, he had already left.

JUDGE MILLER: I think what Mr Nodada wants to know is, when you spoke to Col Duli, when he told you to go to Queenstown to pick up these three gentlemen, did he tell you or give you any information as to where he was going? And perhaps if he did, as to why he was going to where he was going.

MR NTISANA: All he said over the radio was that I should pick these people up and take the route to Maclear. He said that over the radio. He said that he was going to the Transkei and I had to wait for his instructions. That is all.

MR NODADA: And of course you were in constant contact with him until you were at Tsolo, where you lost contact with him.

MR NTISANA: Yes, for some time.

MR NODADA: And he kept on informing you about his whereabouts until you lost contact?

MR NTISANA: He would not tell me where he was, but he would ask whether we are still safe on the road and I would say "Yes we're still driving well on the road".

MR NODADA: And of course you knew that he was - on that same day which was I believe, was it the night of the 21st of November 1992 or the morning of the 22nd of November 1990? - I beg your pardon.

MR NTISANA: When he said that he was going to the Transkei, it was on the 21st at night.

MR NODADA: And you knew that that was the day that he was coming to take over power from Gen Holomisa.

MR NTISANA: Yes, it was that day.

MR NODADA: And as planned, you knew that he was coming with all the members of the military wing as well as other people to assist him in the taking over, you knew that he was not just coming all by himself here, he had a lot of other people accompanying him?

MR NTISANA: Unfortunately I did not know who was with him.

MR NODADA: But at least you knew that there were armed people that were in his company.

MR NTISANA: I did not know that because I heard that their weapons were taken in Port Elizabeth.

MR NODADA: Didn't you know that when he was coming to take over power, he would resist - or rather he would apply force if he was meeting any resistance?

MR NTISANA: I did not know that would happen because he said that he was called by the soldiers of the Transkei.

MR NODADA: So when he came he was going to meet the soldiers of Transkei, who were going to assist him to take over power. Is that what he said to you?

MR NTISANA: Yes, he said that. He said that there was not going to be any bloodshed because the job would not be difficult because the soldiers of the Transkei were ready for him, that he must take over. Maybe I would say that I was dealing with a person who was very clever than me. That's what I realised after some time.

MR NODADA: And during the planning stage, how much did you know about the manner in which this whole coup was going to be executed, what details did you know?

MR NTISANA: I didn't have any details about what was going to happen or how it was going to happen, I was supposed to wait and then after he had finished his operation he would tell me that he was through and what had happened.

MR NODADA: Now when you went back to Maclear and later heard over the radio that the coup had not been successful, what did you do with the three passengers that you had in your vehicle?

MR NTISANA: I took them back to where I found them in Queenstown, even though I was scared.

MR NODADA: And from there you drove back to East London.

MR NTISANA: Yes, I drove back to East London.

MR NODADA: And when did you first learn that some people had been killed at the Ncise camp and also elsewhere?

MR NTISANA: I heard that from the news, that was the first time I heard that.

MR NODADA: Was that when you were at Maclear or on the way between Maclear and East London?

MR NTISANA: Yes, I can say on the way between Maclear and East London.

MR NODADA: Did you consider yourself part of that killing?

MR NTISANA: Because of the conspiracy I can say yes, I was part of the killing.

MR NODADA: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nodada. Mr Malan, have you got any questions?

MR MALAN: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA: What political objective did you intend achieving by taking over the Holomisa government?

MR NTISANA: The intention was that Transkei should be ruled by the civilians, not the military, so that all the changes can be done by the people of the Transkei.

MR MAPOMA: Prior to Holomisa taking over, the Transkei government was led by a political party known as the Tinip(?), do you recall that?

MR NTISANA: Yes.

MR MAPOMA: Were you a member of the Tinip?

MR NTISANA: Yes, I was a member because we were overthrown when we were busy reviving the strength of the Tinip when the government was overthrown.

MR MAPOMA: And during the Tinip era the political activities led by the liberation movements were banned in Transkei then, do you recall that?

MR NTISANA: That is correct, Sir.

MR MAPOMA: And there were good relations, working relations between the Transkei government, led by Tinip and the apartheid government led by P W Botha and then later on F W de Klerk. Is that correct?

MR NTISANA: There was conflict Sir, between those two governments, their relations were not good.

MR MAPOMA: But when it comes to curbing the actions of those who were referred to as the terrorists, there was a good co-operation between these two parties, is it not correct?

MR NTISANA: It was not that good but it surprised me when the government was led by Ms Stella Sigcau when people from Lusaka were arrested we were surprised as members of the parliament when those people went to Lusaka to see the members of the ANC and when they came back they were arrested and a lot of us were surprised by that action.

MR MAPOMA: Now during the Holomisa era, you will agree with me that the government led by Holomisa was to a great extent sympathetic to the liberation movements.

MR NTISANA: I read that from the newspapers and I also saw that on TV, Sir, because I was already in prison when it became clear that he was working with them, or he sympathised with them. But before the Holomisa coup, the reasons why the government was overthrown I became aware of those reasons because they said that the security of the Transkei was not working properly. The relatives were the ones who were hired and ...(indistinct) Matanzima was also arrested. Those were the reasons that led to the removal of Ms Stella Sigcau.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, I think to a certain extent you have answered my question. Now the good relations that Holomisa had with the liberation movements was not taken kindly by the South African Government during that period, is that not correct?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct because I heard about that.

MR MAPOMA: And in fact the South African Government was assisting Col Duli in getting rid of the Holomisa government through your actions. Do you agree with me?

MR NTISANA: I did not see that, I'm not going to agree with you because I did not see what you are saying.

MR MAPOMA: Yes, but it's actually correct that Col Duli was working with the South African Government, the South African Government was aiding him in getting rid of the Holomisa government. Were you not aware of that throughout up to this moment?

MR NTISANA: That was a very clever man, I was not aware of that, not at all.

MR MAPOMA: When did you become at aware, if at all you did become aware, that Col Duli was working with the South African Government when he was conducting the aborted coup?

MR NTISANA: I don't have evidence of that, even now I'm surprised of how he managed to do that.

JUDGE MILLER: Have you ever heard of it before? Have you heard it said that the South African Government were assisting him in his endeavours to overthrow the Transkei Government?

MR NTISANA: No, I did not see or hear anything about that. Since he was arrested in Queenstown I saw that there was no-one protecting him or helping him.

JUDGE MILLER: But I mean even now recently, haven't you heard that?

MR NTISANA: No, I haven't heard.

MR MAPOMA: Mr Ntisana, I want to suggest to you Sir, that the main objective of that coup, aborted coup, the main political objective was to restore the status quo which existed during the Matanzima era, vis-à-vis the political activities that were taking place in Transkei. That is getting in Transkei a government which was going to work hand-in-hand with the South African Government to curb the terrorists in this part of South Africa. What do you say to that?

MR NTISANA: I wouldn't know because the government I was serving under was Nkosazana Stella Sigcau's government.

MR MAPOMA: Who are those paramount chiefs that you identified as chiefs who were going to be coopted into the intended interim government?

MR NTISANA: They were not going to be in the interim government, but they would call the Transkeian people so that the people can appoint the interim cabinet. It was the paramount chiefs from Emampondweni, two of them, Mxalega and two from Themboland and the king from Maluti, Mzimkhulu, Emboland and Fingoland, according to the regions of the Transkei.

MR MAPOMA: But if I'm not mistaken, if you will correct me if I'm wrong, you spoke of four chiefs, who are these four chiefs?

MR NTISANA: Maybe I didn't count properly. Even now I did not count how many there are. There is no paramount chief in Maluti and Fingoland and in Herschel there's no paramount chief and in Emboland there's no paramount chief.

MR MAPOMA: No, what I want to find out Sir is, who are these chiefs that you had in mind to be coopted into your government?

MR NTISANA: We did not pick them by names, but because I knew all the regions would have a chief that would represent the region.

MR MAPOMA: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Has the Panel got any questions?

JUDGE MILLER: Did you become a member of parliament when the Sigcau government, Ms Sigcau became Prime Minister?

MR NTISANA: That is correct.

JUDGE MILLER: You weren't one before, during the governments of the Matanzimas?

MR NTISANA: We became members after Chief George Matanzima.

JUDGE MILLER: How long have you been a member of the Tsitina party?

MR NTISANA: From the 1980s.

JUDGE MILLER: The radio that you were using when you were driving - you said that you communicated with Col Duli with a radio, where did you get that radio from?

MR NTISANA: He had radios with him - Mr Craig Duli. He had radios with him.

JUDGE MILLER: Did he give you a radio?

MR NTISANA: Yes, there was a radio with me in the car.

JUDGE MILLER: And are you still saying Mr Ntisana, that you've never heard of the allegation, even of it being said that Col Duli received arms from the South African Security Forces, through Eugene de Kock?

MR NTISANA: I only read that from the newspapers, but I cannot give evidence on that because I never saw him speaking to any white person.

JUDGE MILLER: And you don't know the route that Col Duli took to get into Transkei that night, the 21st November?

MR NTISANA: No, not at all. I wouldn't have sacrificed my car and the car that he borrowed from me to go to Kofinvaba. I saw that on TV.

JUDGE MILLER: Did you ever have meetings with Mr Mbotoli regarding the changing of government in Transkei?

MR NTISANA: No.

JUDGE MILLER: And the previous two applicants who testified this morning, that's Messrs Gumengu and Nombanga, did you come across them at all during that period?

MR NTISANA: I saw Gumengu in Johannesburg, but I did not know him but he knew me.

JUDGE MILLER: Did you talk with him?

MR NTISANA: No, we didn't say anything to each other.

JUDGE MILLER: Do you have any comment on what you heard this morning, that he was at all times, had infiltrated your group? When I say your group I mean the persons involved in the planning of the coup.

MR NTISANA: I was surprised when he said what he said.

JUDGE MILLER: Because you must have got to know him quite well, you were co-accused in the trial weren't you, and that trial lasted for a long, long time.

MR NTISANA: Yes, I know him because we were together in jail and Mr Nombanga was also in jail.

JUDGE MILLER: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.

MR SIBANYONI: Under what circumstances did you see Gumengu in Johannesburg, did you attend a meeting with him?

MR NTISANA: We met in the street. They came to me, I had a problem, my car broke down and they told me that they were from the Transkei.

MR SIBANYONI: Insofar as the intended coup is concerned, at least you knew that the paramount chief will be called as well as the judge will be called to ask the other chiefs to take custody of Transkei, is that so?

MR NTISANA: Yes, I knew that, I knew that those were the intentions.

MR SIBANYONI: And did those chiefs know that they will be asked to take custody of Transkei?

MR NTISANA: No, they did not know.

MR SIBANYONI: And at what stage were you supposed to use the tapes which you had in your custody?

MR NTISANA: After Col Duli gave out the instruction that everything was under control those tapes were going to be used.

MR SIBANYONI: And then the districts you are talking about are quite vast if I'm not mistaken, how would those chiefs be summonsed, be called together?

MR NTISANA: I once asked that question but he said that in all the regions there were easy ways, maybe they could go to the police station and they would find out about that after everything was done.

MR SIBANYONI: Now in 1992, the political atmosphere was quite different here in South Africa, including the homelands, it was obvious that there would be general elections where everybody would take part, there would be no military councils or military juntas, was it any political ... to try to get hold or to take over Transkei from Gen Holomisa? Or was it just a power struggle between you people residing in that area?

MR NTISANA: It was the conflict that was amongst the people in the Transkei, it had nothing to do with the political liberation movements that were banned, that were not in the Transkei.

MR SIBANYONI: In other areas like in other homelands, the majority of the people were in favour of the changes which were taking place away from the homelands, was it not the case with Transkei?

MR NTISANA: It was going to be like that.

MR SIBANYONI: Why do you say you were acting in the interests of the people of the Transkei, when you are not sure whether they wanted you and Col Duli to seize power in Transkei?

MR NTISANA: We were not going to rule Transkei, but the people of Transkei were going to rule Transkei and the changes were going to be done by the people of the Transkei, not the military.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairperson, no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms Dambuza, any re-examination?

MS DAMBUZA: None, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Yes Mr Ntisana, thank you very much, you're excused.

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, now I call Mzwamadoda Ntisana to the witness box.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's number 1 on our list.

MS DAMBUZA: It is number 1, it is applicant number 1, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Ntisana, do you hear the interpretation? Will you please stand to take the oath. Are your full names Sidwell Mzwamadoda Ntisana?

SIDWELL MZWAMADODA NTISANA: (sworn states)

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you can sit down. Yes, Ms Dambuza.

EXAMINATION BY MS DAMBUZA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Mr Ntisana, is it correct that you are an applicant in terms of Sections 18 and 20 of Act 34/95?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: Is it correct that you are a brother to Mazizi Thomas Ntisana who has just testified before the Committee?

MR NTISANA: Yes, he is my brother.

MS DAMBUZA: And is it correct that you have deposed to an affidavit on the 2nd day of November 1999, in support of your application for amnesty?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: Is it correct that until 1991 you were employed by the Transkei Defence Force as a Sergeant?

MR NTISANA: From 1976 up until the period when I was arrested.

MS DAMBUZA: Is it correct that in January 1990, whilst you were employed in the Transkei Defence Force you were approached by your brother Mazizi Ntisana, who informed you that the late Col Craig Duli wanted to see you?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: Did he tell you - that is your brother, did he tell you what Col Craig Duli wanted to see you for? If so, can you tell the Committee.

MR NTISANA: He never mentioned to me.

MS DAMBUZA: Did you know Col Duli before this day, before your brother approached you as you've already said?

MR NTISANA: I used to know him because I was working with him in the office.

MS DAMBUZA: Who were you with when you went to see Col Duli as requested by your brother?

MR NTISANA: I was with Hlumelo Mxutu, Sandisile Bongweni and Bongo Ndamase.

MS DAMBUZA: Where did you meet Col Duli?

MR NTISANA: In Stutterheim.

MS DAMBUZA: How did you get there?

MR NTISANA: We requested my elder brother to take us there because we did not have transport.

MS DAMBUZA: Are you referring to your brother, Mazizi Ntisane?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: When you met Col Duli in Stutterheim, what did he tell you?

MR NTISANA: He told us that he was released from prison and he had decided to take over the Holomisa government by the soldiers, so that the government could go back to the people.

MS DAMBUZA: Did he tell you why the government had to be returned to the people?

MR NTISANA: There was a time-frame that had elapsed.

MS DAMBUZA: What was your response then?

MR NTISANA: We agreed to what he was saying and we did as he told us.

MS DAMBUZA: What exactly did he tell you to do?

MR NTISANA: He told us to try and recruit in Port St Johns, recruit the special forces and explain his intentions. That was agreed.

MS DAMBUZA: Did you at that time believe that Col Duli's intentions were justified in trying to take the government back to the people of Transkei?

MR NTISANA: As I was working with him he was the ringleader of the people in a coup d'état.

MS DAMBUZA: Which other coup d'état was he a leader of?

MR NTISANA: Coup d'état of Nkosazana Stella's government.

MS DAMBUZA: Were you involved in that coup?

MR NTISANA: As a person who was working for the Military Intelligence and he was a leader there, I was also amongst those people.

MS DAMBUZA: Pursuant then to the request by Col Duli to recruit other members, who did you approach and what did you say to them?

MR NTISANA: In Port St Johns we met with Xweta Ndeleni, Zamikaia Armens.

MS DAMBUZA: What were their ranks at that time?

MR NTISANA: They were Warrant Officers but from different companies.

MS DAMBUZA: Did they agree to participate in the intended coup?

MR NTISANA: Yes.

MS DAMBUZA: When was this intended coup supposed to take place?

MR NTISANA: On the 15th January 1990.

MS DAMBUZA: Did it in fact take place?

MR NTISANA: No.

MS DAMBUZA: Why, if you know, did it not take place?

MR NTISANA: It became apparent that there was some misunderstanding in Port St Johns and the information leaked and when we got to Umtata on the 14th of January, we were told that everything that we were intending to do was well known.

MS DAMBUZA: What then did you do when you discovered that?

MR NTISANA: What we did on the 15th, we woke up, we went to work and got our cheques and we went to our homes and we had told ourselves that we are not going to go ahead with this plan because it was rather dangerous. On the 16th we went to the offices and we were arrested on the 16th of January 1990, in our offices.

MS DAMBUZA: Is it correct then that you were then detained for almost two years and ultimately charged with conspiracy to commit treason?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: Is it correct that you were convicted and sentenced to 8 years imprisonment?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MS DAMBUZA: How many years did you serve in prison?

MR NTISANA: I was sentenced in 1990 up until 1994, December.

MS DAMBUZA: Are you now applying for amnesty for your acts as you have just outlined to the Committee?

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct, because what is more important is to get my fingerprints, the criminal record against my name be removed as a person who was found guilty.

MS DAMBUZA: Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ma'am. Mr Nodada, any questions?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR NODADA: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

Now how many were you as members of the Transkei Defence Force stationed at Port St Johns, who were involved in this conspiracy to overthrow the government of the military council at the time?

MR NTISANA: Four of us from Umtata, the other two were from Port St Johns. Those were the people that we were to talk to in Port St Johns.

MR NODADA: So you were based at the Ncise base in Umtata?

MR NTISANA: Yes, I was here in Ncise, Umtata.

MR NODADA: And you were the only four members who knew about this coup, at the Ncise base?

MR NTISANA: Only the two of us from Ncise and the other two from Port St Johns.

MR NODADA: So all-in-all you were six members of the TDF that were in favour of this take-over by Col Duli?

MR NTISANA: Six of us knew about the plan, but we were not going to face any problems when we meet the whole of us.

MR NODADA: When you meet the whole of you, what do you mean by that?

MR NTISANA: We would meet with Port St Johns and the people from Ncise.

MR NODADA: Who actually fixed the 15th of January 1990 as the date of the take-over?

MR NTISANA: It was Col Duli.

MR NODADA: And when was your first visit? That is the day when Mazizi Ntisana took you from here to Stutterheim to meet Col Duli, what date was that? - if you can remember.

MR NTISANA: It was the 7th of January 1990.

MR NODADA: So that was your first meeting with Col Duli for the intended coup?

MR NTISANA: Yes, I just saw him for the first time after he was released from prison.

MR NODADA: And a week thereafter was the intended date to actually give effect to that intention.

MR NTISANA: Please repeat the question, Sir.

MR NODADA: You met on the 7th of January 1990, and that was your first meeting and the beginning of the planning according to you, and the actual coup was going to be staged on the 15th of January, that is a week from the date of your first meeting with Col Duli.

MR NTISANA: Yes, that is correct.

MR NODADA: Was it hoped that within that short space of time you would have successfully mobilised other members of the Transkei Defence Force to welcome and assist Col Duli in the take-over?

MR NTISANA: He had told us that there were senior officers that he had already talked to, therefore we had to be there on that particular day to recruit Port St Johns, because he never got a chance to talk to the group from Port St Johns.

MR NODADA: Is it correct that you subsequently established that there were no such senior officers?

MR NTISANA: We realised that on the 14th, when we heard that we are going to be arrested.

MR NODADA: As you were a member of the Transkei Defence Force based in Umtata, did you get the feeling that the bulk if not the entire TDF, was in favour of -or rather, was not happy with the ruling of the military council?

MR NTISANA: I cannot say for sure because we were based on different sections at work, some people had their own opinions, different from the others.

MR NODADA: Where were you when the aborted coup was staged on the 22nd of November 1990?

MR NTISANA: I was in Mount Ayliff in prison.

MR NODADA: You were already in prison.

MR NTISANA: I was arrested on the 16th January 1990.

MR NODADA: Had you already been tried and convicted when you were at Mount Ayliff Prison?

MR NTISANA: No.

MR NODADA: Not yet. And you as a person and a member of the TDF then, you cannot say to this Committee that Col Duli had the full support of the Transkei Defence Force when he wanted to take over the Transkei.

INTERPRETER: May the speaker please repeat the question, there was a slight problem with the headset.

MR NODADA: Alright, thank you. You personally, you cannot say from your personal knowledge, that Col Duli when he planned to stage a coup in Transkei, had the full support of the members of the Transkei Defence Force of the time.

MR NTISANA: I can say he had a full support from the TDF members.

MR NODADA: On what basis are you saying that?

MR NTISANA: I saw that from the first coup when he was overthrowing Stella and there was no resistance from the soldiers and even when the Mzimwusi ...(indistinct) was resigning, there was no opposition or resistance.

MR NODADA: Now when he actually staged the aborted coup on the 22nd November 1990, were there any members of the Transkei Defence Force that supported him, to your knowledge?

MR NTISANA: No, I do not know because when this happened I was already in prison.

MR NODADA: And you heard that his forces that came with him to Umtata, when they got to the Ncise base, they attacked one of the camps and the camp that they attacked was mainly made up of recruits and that is where they had most of their casualties. Are you aware of that?

MR NTISANA: I heard that through the media.

MR NODADA: You heard that. And certainly you will agree with me that if there was any support from the Ncise military base, there would have been no point for Craig Duli and his followers to first attack that base when they arrived in Umtata? - instead of coming straight to where the military council was seated at ...(indistinct). If they had the full support of the TDF.

MR NTISANA: I cannot respond to that because at the time I was in detention, I had been there for quite a long time.

MR NODADA: Yes, but subsequently you were released from detention and you heard how the whole thing happened, isn't it so?

MR NTISANA: Yes, I heard.

MR NODADA: Does it not surprise you that their first target was the military base in Umtata, if he had the full support of the members of the TDF?

MR NTISANA: When I got out of jail that was no longer in my mind because I had been in detention for a very long time, suffering, I couldn't see my wife and my children and my parents and then I decided to disassociate myself from all those and attend to my domestic problems.

MR NODADA: Apart from Craig Duli's involvement in the 1987 coup which culminated in the military council ruling this country, what other reason did you have or can you give for concluding that during this second attempt by Craig Duli, he had the full support of the members of the Transkei Defence Force?

MR NTISANA: It is because of his utterances.

MR NODADA: Is that all?

MR NTISANA: Yes.

MR NODADA: Thank you Mr Chairperson, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Nodada. Mr Malan, questions?

MR MALAN: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mapoma?

MR MAPOMA: No questions Chairperson, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Yes Ms Dambuza, any re-examination?

MS DAMBUZA: No re-examination, Mr Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ntisana, thank you, you're excused.

MR NTISANA: Thank you, Sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we have reached the end of the testimony of those applicants who are available at this stage, we'll in all likelihood learn in the meantime, between now and when we reconvene tomorrow, what the situation is with the other two. At this stage we are going to adjourn the proceedings and we will reconvene here tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock. We're adjourned.