CASE NO: AM6026/97

HELD AT: ALIWAL NORTH

APPLICANT: THABISO JAMES MAKOALA

CASE NO: AM3485/96

APPLICANT: PHILA MARTIN DOLO

DATE: 28TH APRIL 1998

MATTER: ZASTRON MAYAPHUTI BRIDGE

______________________________________________________

MR PRIOR: May I proceed Mr Chairman?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, the matter which proceeds this morning, the 28th April 1998 is the Amnesty Application of Thabiso James Makoala, No. 6026/97 and Phila Martin Dolo, No. 3485/96.

The event is the Zastron Mayaphuti Bridge attack on the vehicle of a Mr Griesel and that occurred during November 1992. May I inform the Committee that Mr Griesel was injured in that attack, not fatally, he has subsequently died, he committed suicide, Mr Chairman, if that evidence will be forthcoming - that's why on the schedule before you in brackets "deceased" appears there.

The two other victims who were with Mr Griesel at the time were Mr Tladi and Mr Ndeleni have been informed. Mr Ndeleni is present and I understand Mr Tladi had worked night shift and was unable to attend this morning and in no doubt if necessary his presence will be secured. The victim Mr Ndeleni will rely on the services of the evidence leader, that is myself, P.C. Prior.

The implicated person Mr Letlapa Mphahlele I understand is present and is informed of the proceedings and the two applicants are represented by their respective attorneys. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mbandazayo's my name, I'm representing Phila Martin Dolo, Mr Chairman.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman, Mthembu, I represent Mr Makoala.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, before we proceed, may the bundle that was prepared be marked "A" and there was a supplementary - there was copies of photographs, that they may be marked "B". Mr Chairman to some extent this is a overrun of the photographs already appearing but to avoid confusion, maybe mark that "B" and I understand that Mr Dolo and Mr Makoala have filed supplementary affidavits to their applications this morning. I think Mr Dolo is going to be kicking off so could that affidavit be marked "C", the affidavit of Mr Dolo and the affidavit of Mr Makoalo, "D". Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now gentlemen do you agree with that numbering?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman I agree.

MR MTHEMBU: Correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, carry on.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dolo, do you confirm the affidavit which is before the Committee that it was made by you and you abide by it's contents?

MR DOLO: I do.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, as usual Mr Chairman, I won't go to - I'll go to paragraph - I'll start with paragraph 6 of his affidavit, Mr Chairman. I'll read the paragraph - "The target was identified by myself, the armament used in the operation was organised by myself in my capacity as a Regional Commander, I was charged with the task of getting the ball rolling operationally and intelligence wise and I was reporting directly to the Director of Operations regarding my activities and operations before and after they have taken place. I was therefore always having cadres at my disposal as I was involved in training new recruits."

Now, Mr Dolo, for the benefit of the Committee, tell the Committee how did you identify the target?

MR DOLO: As stated in my application, that I was the commander of the unit. I was having subordinates, recruits and some other cadres were under my control. They were involved in information gathering about targets that have to be attacked and that information would be submitted to me and I would make an overall rule of which target do I choose that have to be attacked and which one does not have to be attacked, so I was the one therefore who was identifying the targets and after that I would report to my superiors prior to the attack and after the attack.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you also for the benefit of the Committee, tell the Committee how did you organise the armament, that is the weapons used in the operation?

MR DOLO: As the Regional Commander, when I arrived in that region or area, the way armaments that were there, the Commander was informed of them, they were under my control so I was the one therefore would be in charge of those arms I will just be ...[inaudible] in that way.

CHAIRPERSON: You've been asked how you identified the target and you've explained that you got information from people under you. Would you please tell us what target you identified?

MR DOLO: Like the one we are dealing with it now here?

CHAIRPERSON: The one you're asking amnesty in respect of. I would like to know what target it was?

MR DOLO: The one we once dealt about it last week and we're talking about and this one we're dealing with it now. The Zastron Sterkspruit Bridge.

MR LAX: Sorry are you saying if I understand you correctly that the target was the bridge or was that the target area?

MR DOLO: The target was on the side of South Africa, when you passed the bridge, that was the area where the target would be targeted.

MR LAX: So that was the locality, if you like, if you chose to carry out an attack, is that what you're saying when you talk about target, you really - because target could be used in a whole range of different ways. You identified an area where you would launch an attack. I'm just trying to get this clear?

MR DOLO: My unit or those were under me will embark on reconnaissance and surveillance work - that information would be submitted to me and I would be the one therefore to choose which target is to be attacked. So in this case, we are dealing with the cars which were approaching Sterkspruit from the Zastron side.

MR LAX: The question really goes to what you are saying now - was it random which cars you would attack or was purely fortuitous that those cars would arrive at that place at that time or would you have specific information that specific vehicles would be arriving at a specific place? We're trying to understand because a target is usually the end product at which you point a firearm - either a vehicle, a person or a something.

MR DOLO: I was having information about those targets.

MR LAX: Well expand on that for us please because you're being very quiet about that, tell us more, tell us what information you had, why you chose those targets, what was your objective in relation to those targets. That's what we want to know and unfortunately we haven't had much elaboration on that so far.

MR DOLO: The targets were from the area of Zastron approaching to Sterkspruit. Some were having businesses around there at Sterkspruit. Some were passing through Sterkspruit to the side of Lady Grey. The one we are talking about now was also from that direction of Zastron to Sterkspruit and the hours they were using to approach that area - it was - they normally used or approached at that area early in the mornings during working hours and the purpose of attacking those were normally or where cars and it's occupants were at that stage - we'll call them settlers or white colonists.

The objectives of attacking them were part and parcel liberation of our people and the question of driving them away from the area of Sterkspruit so that we can take it over - Sterkspruit - and as part of liberation of ourselves.

CHAIRPERSON: It's gradually becoming a little clearer to me. Do I understand you to say that persons using that road at that time of the morning were usually people who worked in Sterkspruit and you wanted to drive them out, drive them off the land there, drive them out of Sterkspruit?

MR DOLO: That was part of the object.

CHAIRPERSON: So understandably your people could take over, is that part of the object?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: May I proceed Mr Chairman?

"We were four operatives for the Zastron Mayaphuti Sterkspruit Bridge incident. It was myself, Rogers, Scorpion and then Kleintjie. I was the Commander of the unit, I was carrying R4 rifle. Kleintjie -" Mr Chairman, it's not B8 it's 3.8, Mr Chairman - "3.8 Special, Scorpion also 3.8 Special and Rogers 7.65 Special. At the time of the incident we were staying at Jozannashoek in Transkei."

Mr Dolo can you - I know that it has been asked many times - tell the Committee at whose place were you staying at Jozanneshoek in Transkei?

MR DOLO: I learned a name after all last week, the owner of the house was known by the name of - he was a Chief there of that area - well I think the name was Spitso which was mentioned last week. So we were staying in his house of which we use it as our base.

CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, could you?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Speak again?

CHAIRPERSON: Spitso?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

I'll proceed to paragraph 8, Mr Chairman. "I was the only person who knew what was going to happen and I briefed my unit when we arrived at the bridge on the Zastron side. I deployed the unit on the side of the road. I was laying in ambush and the people who we were to attack, the cars whose occupants who were white."

Now can you, before you lay this ambush, before you went to the target to the spot where you lay the ambush, can you tell the Committee, from Jozannashoek how did you manage to be at that particular spot where the incident took place? Can you take the Committee through that?

MR DOLO: We were four of us as mentioned in my affidavit. We went to Sterkspruit, the town of it, where we went to the house of Viyaphuti and arriving there, it was still dark, early in the morning. We found that the house was - inside it was dark, there were no lights which were litten and we thought maybe we'll be waking them early in the morning so we decided to go to another house of another African person.

We went to the house of Nopise, I know him as Nopise I don't know whether he has another name and arriving there the lights were on in his house and we knock and he opened for us and I told him that we wanted to go to Zastron and I asked him whether he would be willing to transport us to that place. He thought maybe we wanted the car so why I told we also need him to transport us, to drive it for us and drop us at the other side of Zastron. After some time he went inside his house and I thought maybe he approached his wife and after some times he come back and he agree that he was going to take us to the other side of Zastron and we went to Zastron, to the side of Zastron and ...[inaudible] to that side of Zastron.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, now let's go to paragraph, now 8 which I was talking about that where you laid the ambush, are you saying to this Committee that all along when you went to Viyaphuti and you went to Nopise and you were dropped at that spot the other, the members of your unit, they didn't know what was going to happen?

MR DOLO: Normally due to our modus operandi, when we're going to embark in any operation, that the Commander will be the only person who knew what is going to happen. As in this case, after arriving at the side of the bridge I briefed my unit of what is going to take place and I deployed them in that side of Zastron and we waited for the car.

ADV. SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mbandazayo, where did the members of your unit think they were going up to the point when you told them what the operation was going to be, where did they think they were going?

MR DOLO: During that period, we embark on these exercises I once mentioned, training exercises which were partly operations and partly exercise. I don't know what was in their minds, maybe they thought it was part of the exercise.

ADV. SANDI: When you say you briefed them, what exactly did you say to them?

MR DOLO: I told them that we are going to wait for the cars whose occupants were settlers and we are going to ambush it, that's what I told them and I deployed them in the ambush formation.

CHAIRPERSON: Your evidence was you waited for "the" car, was it a particular car that you were waiting for?

MR DOLO: We, at that stage, we knew that there will be these cars which were coming towards Zastron and anyone that comes will be our target.

CHAIRPERSON: But where were these - you said you were being dropped at the side of Zastron?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That isn't near this bridge is it?

MR DOLO: Zastron, I take it to be on the other side of the bridge.

CHAIRPERSON: Well isn't Zastron some distance away from the river?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, just maybe he will answer that. I take it that on the Zastron side of the bridge - the bridge which separates Transkei and the Free State.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, that's over the Orange River isn't it?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And Zastron is what, fifteen kilometres from there?

MR MBANDAZAYO: It's fifteen kilometres from that bridge but Zastron starts at the bridge, that area is called Zastron from the bridge up to the town.

CHAIRPERSON: So he doesn't mean the town of Zastron?

MR MBANDAZAYO: He doesn't mean the town, Mr Chairman, he means the bridge on the Zastron side of the bridge.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were there to attack any car that came along from the Zastron direction?

MR DOLO: Whose occupants were settlers.

CHAIRPERSON: Whose occupants were white.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now paragraph 9 Mr Chairman.

"A bakkie came and I ordered that we must fire but I was the only one who fired and I realised that the bakkie was driven by an African and I stopped and the bakkie passed." Can you explain that to the Committee?

MR DOLO: I deployed my unit in the ambush formation. There was someone some distance - whom I deployed a distance away from us to give us early warning in case that there is any car approaching from that direction, he will inform us. I am not sure whom I deployed to be in that position.

As there was this car approaching, he informed us, give us a signal that there is a car approaching, the car will be approaching from the curve so we won't be in a position to see the car when it's approaching so that's why I deployed one of my commandants in that position and when this car approached. as I was armed with an R4 I ordered the unit that which was acting as an assault unit to attack as I was part of it and the car approached and I attacked it or I shot at it with an R4. The car was speeding, it was moving at a high speed. As I was shooting with it, it was passing me.

To correct something in this case whereby I mentioned that the car was driven by an African - I'm not sure about that but there was an African inside the car and after realising that it was an African inside the car and the settlers, I stopped shooting at the car and the car proceeded to Sterkspruit, to the side of Sterkspruit.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What signal was going to be given in terms of the plan or what signal was actually given to you?

MR DOLO: To be honest with the TRC I'm not sure which signal did we use there, normally it would be the raising of the hand.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You don't remember the exact signal?

MR DOLO: Yes I don't remember.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I proceed with the same paragraph - "We retreated to our base and the unit handed the arms to me at the base. I thereafter reported to my superiors."

Can you explain how did you retreat to your base?

MR DOLO: After this incident there were other places or one of the places I knew which we could use it as a hiding place for these hours. So we went to this place, it was the area known as Walazi, it's not far away from this border area of Zastron at the other side of Sterkspruit. We went to the house of Mangenene, one of the PAC members who was staying in that area.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you repeat the name Mr Dolo?

MR DOLO: Mangenene. We stayed at the place until it was afternoon and then we left the place to our base. The purpose, as it was a question of safety measures, after we attacked the vehicle, we thought maybe the occupants of the car would go to the police and report the matter so that's why we decided to retreat to this place.

MR LAX: Sorry, when you say then after leaving Mangenene's place, just correct me, that was at Walazi you said?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: From there you went back to your base, was that at Jozannas?

MR DOLO: That afternoon?

MR LAX: Yes, but that as your base at Jozanneshoek, is that right?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Thanks

ADV. SANDI: What happened to this car that was shot at?

MR DOLO: I don't know what happened to it. I take it it went through to Zastron to Sterkspruit to the town of Sterkspruit. We learn it later after some days that one of the occupants went to the hospital there at Sterkspruit.

ADV. SANDI: So the bullet hit one of the occupants of the car, is that what you're saying?

MR DOLO: Yes one of the settlers.

ADV. SANDI: How many times did you shoot at this particular vehicle?

MR DOLO: I shoot at it as it was approaching to our direction and as it is passing through me and when it passed completely me I stopped shooting as I realised that one of or some of the occupants, one of the occupants was an African.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I proceed Mr Chairperson. "I thereafter reported to my superiors." Can you tell the Committee, how did you report to your superiors?

MR DOLO: As it is a procedure that each and after an operation we have to report to our - those who are in charge of us so in this case too, I did report the matter to my superiors through a written report. That's how I reported to my superiors.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dolo, is there anything you want to - that you have not mentioned to the Committee relating to this incident, you want to add or you want to say to the Committee?

MR DOLO: I will say that our struggle was just as our land was usurped by settlers, colonists and we were oppressed as a nation, African Nation by settlers, Europeans and the battle then was drawn between the African oppressed versus the European oppressor, between the African exploited versus European exploiter. So the struggle then, it was between those two nations, between the Africans versus European settlers who came into this country and coming to this case of so called civilians or whites who were normally known by you as civilians, it is well known after all that in South Africa at that stage even I think it is up to now, that there were no civilian whites in South Africa, it was a matter of force that they have to be trained in order to defend themselves against those so called terrorists. They were trained at a stage so we were fighting a nation that was armed and we had to defend ourselves, that's how too we formed liberation armies to defend ourselves, to defend the African Nation against the usurpers of our land. I don't think that will be much.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Mr Chairman.

ADV. SANDI: Just one thing Mr Dolo, when you say you reported to your superiors, who is that?

MR DOLO: To Comrade Hepe.

ADV. SANDI: Is that Mr - I gather from the documents that I've seen, from previous documents - is that Mr Letlape Mphahlele?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Through you Chairperson, you say you presented a written report, can you remember when you sent that report, or did you hand deliver it?

MR DOLO: I think it was the following day that I wrote the report, if I'm sure.

MR LAX: Ja, carry on? You wrote it the following day, how did you get it to Mr Letlape Mphahlele?

MR DOLO: I gave it to another comrade whom I was working with to transport it to Hepe.

MR LAX: Ja, who was that?

MR DOLO: He was known by Phila.

MR LAX: That's the person you took over from, is that right?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: So he would have taken it to Umtata where Mphahlele would have been at that time?

MR DOLO: I don't know where he was at that time so I gave to him to give it to Hepe.

MR LAX: You see in a previous matter you told us that after that operation you phoned Mphahlele?

MR DOLO: After which operation?

MR LAX: The one - the next one - the one that we dealt with next week which happened the day after this one.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: You said in that one that you reported to Mphahlele but you did that by phone on that occasion?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: So where did you phone him?

MR DOLO: At Umtata.

MR LAX: So he must have been at Umtata.

MR DOLO: I don't know.

MR LAX: Well if you phoned him there surely he was there?

MR DOLO: It was not the same day.

MR LAX: I won't waste my time with this nonsense. Carry on.

MR DOLO: Sorry, what are you saying? I don't know whether I hear you correctly, you say you won't waste your time with this nonsense?

MR LAX: Just carry on with your evidence. Mr Mphahlele, please keep quiet, this is none of your business, you're not giving evidence. Please behave yourself, really.

MR MPHAHLELE: You must behave yourself.

CHAIRPERSON: If this continues, I will have no option but to ask that you be removed.

MR DOLO: He won't be removed here.

MR LAX: Please continue with your evidence.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Mr Chairman, can I just be given a minute just to talk to him?

MR LAX: What is nonsense with all due respect to all of you, if you want me to explain, is the fact that they phoned the man in Umtata, we know he was based in Umtata, we've heard evidence to that effect. Really, I'm not going to get into an argument with you about the issue, that's all I'm saying.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, any questions?

MR MTHEMBU: None Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: You had finished with this?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman, I've finished with him, thank you Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Mr Dolo, just to get it into it's time sequence, this event where you shot at this vehicle, this bakkie, was the 18th November 1992 and the following day was the 19th when you went to the Lady Grey Sterkspruit Road where Mrs Brummer, Mr Tsimani and the other gentleman, the coloured gentleman were killed, is that correct? In other words this matter occurred the day before the Lady Grey Hershel Sterkspruit matter which we dealt with last week?

MR DOLO: Okay yes.

MR PRIOR: Okay and in that matter you said following on a question from the Committee you phoned Mr Letlapa Mphahlele informing him of that matter and your evidence a short while ago was that in this matter you wrote to him the following day, that is the day in which you perpetrated that attack on Mrs Brummer and Mr Tsimani and the other gentlemen?

MR DOLO: By the following day I mean it was early in the morning before we went for this one of Lady Grey Sterkspruit ambush.

MR PRIOR: Yes, so before you left there you wrote your report and gave it to Mr Phila, that's Power or Ace, is that right?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: I just wanted to get that clear. Why didn't you phone Mr Mphahlele in Umtata?

MR DOLO: I had to go to another operation that's why I didn't have much time to go to town and phone.

MR PRIOR: Alright. I just want to refer you to the Amnesty Application of Mr Thabiso James Makoala. If you look at the bundle before you to page 4 and 5 of the prepared papers.

Would you agree with that list that those were the attacks carried out in that area and that was during 1992 except for the last one on page 4 which doesn't really relate to the Sterkspruit area - it was Umtata Ikwesi Lukuso attack but...[intervention]

CHAIRPERSON: It was also in 1994 - so it didn't relate to the time either.

MR PRIOR: Yes but apart from that one, would you agree that the attacks or the operations that he sets out on page 4 and 5 were all the incidents involving your unit which was housed at Jozannashoek that was during 1992?

MR DOLO: So what's you question?

MR PRIOR: No, do you agree that those are the complete number of attacks or operations that you carried out during 1992 when you and your unit were based at Jozannashoek during 1992?

MR DOLO: I don't agree.

MR PRIOR: Well he lists the Mayaphuti Bridge which is the one that we're dealing with today.

MR LAX: Mr Prior, maybe he could just tell us what else or maybe why he doesn't agree and what else he wants to add.

CHAIRPERSON: Or take off.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, I'll do that.

Well, in which respects don't you agree with Mr Makoala's list?

MR DOLO: I don't agree with Mr Prior when he says that I took part in all those attacks.

MR PRIOR: No I don't say you took part.

ADV. SANDI: Can I explain your question Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Yes, please.

ADV. SANDI: Mr Dolo, can you see page 4 and 5?

MR DOLO: Yes I can see.

ADV. SANDI: Would you say what appears there is a list of all the incidents and actions your unit was involved in whilst you were based at Jozannashoek?

MR DOLO: Yes I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: That is excluding the last one on page 4.

MR PRIOR: So you're known as Kenny, is that right? Kenny?

MR DOLO: There were two Kenny - I think Thabiso will be of help to explain to you.

MR PRIOR: Alright. Is that why you say you weren't involved in all these operations?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: But these people were part of your unit, you would have given them the instruction to go out and do these operations, is that right?

MR DOLO: These were not the only people who were stationed at Jozanna.

MR PRIOR: Yes but during 1992 you were the commander, Regional Commander of that unit based at Jozannashoek?

MR DOLO: That's it.

MR PRIOR: And if members of your unit had gone out doing attacks the orders would have come from you, that's what I simply want to establish, or are you saying someone else may have given them orders without you knowing about that?

MR DOLO: I was the Regional Commander there, taking over from Phila as I mentioned before.

MR PRIOR: I'm happy with that, I understand that.

MR DOLO: And I was not stationed there at Jozanna later on.

MR PRIOR: Well maybe we can deal with it this way. You certainly had something to do with the Mayaphuti Bridge, that's the first incident he lists, can we tick that off, we can say you were involved there because that's what you're talking about today?

MR DOLO: Yes I'm involved.

MR PRIOR: Then the Zastron farm attack?

MR DOLO: No.

MR PRIOR: Can we accept that you never went on any attack with Makoala, Mr Makoala?

MR DOLO: Involving?

MR LAX: Sorry can I just come in there. Mr Prior you're putting that question in a very general way. "Can we accept you never went on any attack with him" - it's not - okay - even so, let's try and be a bit more specific so we can - because I understand the problem, I'm only referring to - can I just take over here - as I said earlier, maybe you can indicate to us - what is wrong with this list of attack, what's missing from it, what other acts are there that should be added, are there any that should be taken off that you don't agree happened and then in respect of each one maybe say whether you gave the order or whether Ace Phila gave it or someone else gave it so that we can get some degree of clarity on these issues.

ADV. SANDI: But, Mr Prior, isn't that exactly what you are trying to ascertain from the witness by going with him through each and every incident that appears on this list?

MR PRIOR: The purpose of my questioning on this aspect is whether he agrees with the list supplied by Mr Makoala who was a member of his unit at Jozannashoek. Whether he agrees that those were the sum total of operations that were carried out during 1992 while they were based in that area.

MR LAX: So we already know that's not the sum total from previous evidence we've heard because there were some training attacks they went on and other things they may have done so that's why I'm saying there's a problem with them putting it that way.

CHAIRPERSON: Well let us just going through them one by one and then asking if there are any others, but before we do that, can you perhaps help me. We've heard about a Kenny Madibula, is that you or is that the other Kenny?

MR DOLO: That's the second Kenny.

CHAIRPERSON: That's the other one. Right, you've told us that you did take part in the bridge, Mayaphuti Bridge attack.

MR DOLO: Yes I did.

CHAIRPERSON: And do you agree that the people there were the other applicant - Mr Makoala, Roger and Scorpion the other people?

MR DOLO: I do agree.

CHAIRPERSON: And can you tell us any other names for them?

MR DOLO: I know them with those names.

CHAIRPERSON: Right, then the Zastron farm attack, do you know of that attack?

MR DOLO: No, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know that there was such an attack?

MR DOLO: No, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know anything about such an attack?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You haven't heard from anybody?

MR DOLO: I heard it later when we just discussed but not officially.

CHAIRPERSON: The Sterkspruit Hotel attack?

MR DOLO: No, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: When quite a lot of - I think that's the one I'm saying - quite a lot of money came back from that.

MR LAX: Sixty Five Thousand, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You don't know about it?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: The Lady Grey ambush?

MR DOLO: I took part in it.

CHAIRPERSON: And you agree with the people there?

MR DOLO: Except the name Jabu.

CHAIRPERSON: Jabu.

Then the Lady Grey farm attack?

MR DOLO: No, I never take part in that.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you know about it?

MR DOLO: I heard about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give any instructions for it?

MR DOLO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: And there is a second Lady Grey farm attack?

MR DOLO: Also, I never take part in this one.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear about it?

MR DOLO: No, I don't know whether I hear or not, I don't recall.

MR LAX: Did you - sorry - we can assume you didn't give any instructions for that either? That was the second farm attack in Lady Grey.

MR DOLO: I never take part in it and I never gave instructions.

MR LAX: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: And finally, the Sterkspruit Garage attack?

MR DOLO: I never participated in it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you hear about it?

MR DOLO: Yes I hear about it.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you give instructions?

MR DOLO: No I didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: Now were there any other attacks in that year 1992 by members of this group who were living together?

MR DOLO: Repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: Were there any other attacks apart from the ones I've just asked you about that were committed by members of your group in 1992?

MR DOLO: Not in that area of Sterkspruit, Lady Grey, Zastron.

CHAIRPERSON: In other areas?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Can you tell us about them?

MR DOLO: It was at Ficksburg.

CHAIRPERSON: Ficksburg - and was that members of your group?

MR DOLO: Some of them.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you participate?

MR DOLO: Yes I did participate.

CHAIRPERSON: Any others?

MR DOLO: Not with that group. That was '93.

CHAIRPERSON: No, we'll leave that for the moment, other people might ask you about that. There were no others with that group in 1992?

MR DOLO: ...[inaudible]

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR LAX: Sorry, I just want to be absolutely clear here because you have already given us evidence in another matter of other training attacks that you went on - you remember that?

MR DOLO: Yes I recall.

MR LAX: Let's confirm all of those as well because we don't want to get bogged down in semantics later to say well those weren't attacks those were training operations or other things and they surface and then it looks like you're being tricked when in fact - let's rather get as many of those out as you can remember as well. I just don't want to have to let you feel you might be ambushed later around those issues when in fact it's not the intention.

MR DOLO: I mentioned two incidents prior to, or in the area of Lady Grey Ambush that there were also two attacks that were carried out.

MR LAX: Are those the only two that you know about?

MR DOLO: Which involved the enemy whereby it was physically involved. The other attacks - we carried them out in the mountains whereby there would be no settlers as part of the exercise.

MR LAX: So others weren't - I mean you didn't attack people or vehicles or houses belonging to anybody?

MR DOLO: No.

MR LAX: Thanks Chairperson.

ADV. SANDI: Mr Dolo did you mention something about attacks in the mountains, can you explain that?

MR DOLO: We were talking about the exercises except the two which I have mentioned, so I come across this question of the mountains whereby we were involved in the exercise.

CHAIRPERSON: Were these the normal sort of military manoeuvres?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: May I proceed Mr Chairman?

Maybe I can help you Mr Dolo - these two other attacks which you now mention, which were partly training and partly operational. The one occurred in March, early in March and that was the vehicle of Mr van Rooyen who was at the bakery. My information is that a petrol bomb was thrown at his bakkie which exploded on the bonnet causing burn areas on the vehicle and he went through that ambush and then went up to Herschel and reported the matter there. Can you recall that whether that would be the case?

MR DOLO: That would be the case as we had dealt with it last week.

MR PRIOR: And you see there was a motorist that followed behind it, a Mr Franscisco, who also worked at the bakery and when he was about four minutes behind Mr van Rooyen and he still saw the petrol bomb burning on the road and he drove past, he wasn't effected at all so you confirm that this was the first attack early in March?

MR DOLO: There were two attacks in that area before this one of the ambush of the area of Lady Grey - one involved the one you are mentioning and then there would be another one.

MR PRIOR: I'm trying to put a time frame on it - the one we are talking about now with - my information is Mr van Rooyen, you obviously didn't know his name or you may have known his name. He worked at the bakery. That occurred in March. The Lady Grey ambush with Mrs Brummer and Mr Tsimani occurred in November - it was eight months later.

MR DOLO: So which one are you telling about, the one that occurred in March?

MR PRIOR: Yes.

MR DOLO: No, I was not part of it.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying that shortly before the Lady Grey Sterkspruit where Mrs Brummer was involved, there was also a training/operational exercise on that same part of the road where a petrol bomb was thrown at a vehicle?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And exploded on the vehicle?

MR DOLO: When it was mentioned last week here by I think it's Thabiso, he said the petrol bomb never exploded, I think so.

MR PRIOR: Yes, you see there was one after this Lady Grey matter - I don't want to confuse the witness - it was after the 19th, about a week later, there was an incident on that road just beyond the bridge going up towards Sterkspruit, when Mr Franscisco's vehicle was shot at by a passing taxi or from out of a passing taxi. Do you know anything about that?

MR DOLO: If you can explain it again broadly?

MR PRIOR: The only other incident that we are aware of after the 19th November, that is the ambush we spoke about last week - Mrs Brummer, Mr Tsimani's matter - about a week after that there was a shooting incident on that same stretch of road on Mr Franscisco who also worked at the Sterkspruit Bakery or the bakery in Sterkspruit and his vehicle was shot at from a passing Hi-Ace taxi on the way to Sterkspruit.

MR DOLO: I know no Hi-Ace issue where he was but, maybe a week as you say it happened a week prior to that one of the ambush, there was two attacks that we were involved in it.

MR PRIOR: But those two attacks on your description they involve Molotov Cocktails, there was no shooting there?

MR DOLO: There were guns.

MR PRIOR: But there was no shooting?

MR DOLO: I don't recall.

MR PRIOR: Alright. What I want possibly just try and elucidate from you was that you were sent - you were deployed in that area, as I now understand your evidence, to get rid of the white people that were working in or had business interest in Sterkspruit, is that correct?

MR DOLO: Repeat again?

MR PRIOR: You were deployed in that area, Jozannashoek, Sterkspruit, to drive off or drive away or kill or get rid of the white people - as you call them the settlers - in that area, you wanted them out of Sterkspruit?

MR DOLO: That was part of the mission.

MR PRIOR: And that command, that order came from Mr Letlapa Mphahlele, is that correct?

MR DOLO: That was part of the instructions.

MR PRIOR: To drive out any white person in Sterkspruit, is that right?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And the intelligence that you gained was that most of the people that worked in Sterkspruit, lived either in Lady Grey or came from Zastron from either the Free State or from the Eastern Cape side, is that right?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And was also your intelligence that they always drove on that road at a certain time of the day in other words 7 o'clock, half past seven?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And is that why you planned the ambushes for that time?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you also have further intelligence that certain of these individuals drove particular motor vehicles, for example - Mr Griesel drove a bakkie, Mr Smit drove a motor car, the bakery had a certain vehicle, the furnishers, Score Furnishers had a certain vehicle - was that the type of intelligence that you had?

MR DOLO: Yes, but the names of the owners of the car we not know about.

MR PRIOR: So you were looking out for particular motor vehicles at that specific time?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you have for example makes and colours of vehicles?

MR DOLO: Yes, they were known, the cars.

MR PRIOR: And those were your specific targets - as I understand your evidence - you were looking out for those particular vehicles because they were connected very properly to Sterkspruit via the owners who were the white settlers.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: I just need to know from you how it occurred that on this particular day the 18th November 1992 when you attacked this vehicle - how, as I understood your instructions last week, was that no vehicle where an African person was either riding on, passenger or driving was to be attacked? How that mistake could again have occurred on this occasion -sorry, I'll rephrase it - how that mistake arose on this day, the 18th November - you shot at a vehicle where in fact Mr Ndeleni who will later be called to give evidence was in fact a front seat passenger?

MR DOLO: The data I heard about those cars was never mentioned that there will be African people.

MR PRIOR: So did this come as a surprise to you on that day that you saw an African person?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: So there was no need - there wasn't any warning given by whoever was waving his hat or his hand?

MR DOLO: No there was no warning.

MR PRIOR: So in fact the warning was simply that a vehicle was approaching?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: The signal that was given had nothing to do with the occupants of that vehicle, is that correct?

MR DOLO: It was with the car as they know the car, the type of the car which was approaching.

MR PRIOR: Now Mr Griesel, I understood, worked in Sterkspruit, I think he was an electrical contractor or he worked for Eskom, he was laying cables there, did you know that?

MR DOLO: No, I didn't know.

MR PRIOR: So on that particular morning, what was your specific information about this vehicle, what were you to expect?

MR DOLO: The person I deployed to give us the early warning knew about those cars so he was in the position to identify the cars.

MR PRIOR: Alright, you say you didn't know the identity of the driver or the owner of the vehicle. Were you expecting more than one vehicle on that occasion to come through over the bridge?

MR DOLO: I was expecting more than one.

MR PRIOR: How many?

MR DOLO: More than one will mean two or three.

MR PRIOR: Well what was your information, would there be three vehicles at that time in the morning or was it - were you just going to take a chance?

MR DOLO: I was expecting more than one, I didn't know how many would there be.

MR PRIOR: And you were going to attack all those vehicles as they came across the bridge?

MR DOLO: If at the time ...[inaudible]

MR PRIOR: When you started shooting at this bakkie, how far away was it from you?

MR DOLO: It was a distance away from me.

MR PRIOR: Can you point out that distance from where you are sitting as you can see in the hall?

CHAIRPERSON: If that doesn't help you can go outside and point it out outside, it may be a more realistic distance.

MR DOLO: Don't you have pictures of that area?

MR PRIOR: Yes, go to page 53 of the bundle, 54, 56, 57, 58. Mr Chairman, unfortunately I don't have the originals of all those photographs. I do have an original of I think the photographs in bundle B. Yes, could you also maybe look at the bundle B which is also photographs of that bridge?

Can I possibly ask you this question first - did you attack the vehicle, shoot at the vehicle as it was approaching the bridge or after it had crossed the bridge?

MR DOLO: Before it approached the bridge.

MR PRIOR: Right, if you look at page 53, photograph 1, it's a photocopy but it's fairly clear. There's a point A which indicates an arrow, in other words the vehicle was driving towards the photographer, do you agree with that?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And all those points B, H, J, G, and you can see there's two vehicles parked in the background. Is that where the shooting occurred, from that direction?

MR DOLO: I think if you can use page 54, I think it's a clear one.

MR PRIOR: Okay, that's the direction from which the vehicle was travelling, from Zastron towards the bridge, Sterkspruit?

MR DOLO: And I take point A to be the first bullet where it started the shooting.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, no, point A just gives you the direction of the vehicle. All the other points where cartridges were found, all along that area, starting from point J towards the bridge?

MR DOLO: The shooting started when the car was from this area of point A.

MR PRIOR: Alright, can you see there's a white car on the left hand side, looking at page 54?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: I don't want the exact spot, was it more or less from that area that the shooting started, when the vehicle was in that position?

MR DOLO: It was more or less from point A.

MR PRIOR: Okay and it was shot at as it was driving towards the bridge?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And when it passed you did you then run after it firing your R4 rifle?

MR DOLO: No.

MR PRIOR: Did you stay in one position?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And did any of your comrades further up towards the bridge, did they also fire at this vehicle?

MR DOLO: I didn't notice that.

MR PRIOR: Okay.

MR LAX: I understood your previous evidence to be that once the vehicle had passed you, you realised there was an African in it and you stopped firing?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: So you didn't continue shooting after it had passed you?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Okay, I just wanted to clarify that because your last answer made it seem as if you might have carried on shooting after the vehicle passed you.

ADV. SANDI: Let's have a look a page 54, that's photo number 2, where were you, were you on the gravel road or are you able to indicate the point where you were when you opened fire on this vehicle? Where were you in relation to this photo?

MR DOLO: I was just next to the bridge.

ADV. SANDI: Next to the bridge would be, if we can use annexure B, photo 2.

MR LAX: Were you standing at the point where he is pointing to?

MR DOLO: I was around there.

MR LAX: Somewhere in that vicinity?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Were you behind that barrier or in front of the barrier?

MR DOLO: I was behind it.

MR LAX: Were you on the other side of the fence or - see there's a fence there - behind the barrier a bit further back there's a fence that runs.

MR DOLO: No I don't think I was behind it.

MR LAX: So you were between the fence and the barrier?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Somewhere in that vicinity?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I've been passed a note by the caterers that tea - can tea be served, it's twenty to twelve.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I was just wondering, we started late but I'm aware that some people may have been here waiting for some time and whether they would like a short adjournment.

MR PRIOR: I think just from their side because they have after the tea, they have to start to preparing the lunch which is quite - so that's the note that's been passed so can we take the adjournment now?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm prepared to agree to a tea adjournment provided it takes about ten minutes, we don't have the normal long dragging on. Right we'll adjourn now and come back at ten to twelve.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ON RESUMPTION

EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: (cont)

Thank you Mr Chairman.

Mr Dolo, you are unable to tell us who else in your unit whether they fired or not?

MR DOLO: (s.u.o.)

...[inaudible]

MR PRIOR: There was no report made to you after this operation by the other members as to what they did during this operation?

MR DOLO: I don't recall what did they say.

MR PRIOR: I just want to just deal finally with the one aspect that I dealt with before the tea adjournment. You confirm that your specific instructions or your specific command was to attack settlers, white people who had interests, business interests or had worked in Sterkspruit - they had to be attacked specifically in this area?

MR DOLO: They didn't have any knowledge about those settlers we had specific interest in that area of Sterkspruit. I only told them that we would be attacking certain cars whose occupants would be settlers.

MR PRIOR: You see, why I ask you that, it seems out of all the APLA matters that I'm aware of and this is a very general question, your operations in that area seem to be the only operations that targeted a specific community, a specific business community unlike the other attacks which seem to have been more of a random nature.

MR DOLO: Do I have to say something?

MR PRIOR: I just want to know can you comment on that? There seems to be a different pattern that emerges in your unit's operations during 1992 in the Sterkspruit area, that a specific interest group was targeted rather than random targets throughout the country as it occurred?

MR DOLO: It occurred that way.

MR PRIOR: The suggestion that was put last week and I must put it again in fairness to you, were you possibly protecting any particular person's interests in the Sterkspruit area? A business man for example?

MR DOLO: No.

MR PRIOR: Who may have had sympathies towards PAC, who was a PAC supporter?

MR DOLO: I said no.

MR PRIOR: The three persons that you mentioned, their names I think it was Pitso, Buyafuti and I there was another person that you mentioned who stayed in the ....[intervention]

MR LAX: Nopise was his name.

MR PRIOR: Nopise. Do you know whether those were business people, whether they had business interests in that area?

MR DOLO: Buyafuti I know him as a business person and Pitso we were using his house as our base and Nopise I knew him that he was an Africanist and he was having a car.

ADV. SANDI: Mr Dolo, should we understand you to say that of the three names that you've mentioned, that is Buyafuti, Pitso and Nopise only Buyafuti was a business man - is that what you're saying - and not Pitso and Nopise?

MR DOLO: To my understanding, Pitso, I don't recall whether -I never heard that he was having any businesses around Sterkspruit.

ADV. SANDI: Just to get clarity on one aspect of the matter here, let us go back to this day of the attack. If a white person unknown to you driving a vehicle unknown to you had driven past the point where you were planning to be attacking from, would this person have been attacked?

MR DOLO: The person I deployed to act as a early warning was familiar with the cars that were travelling during those hours so he knew which cars he was going to give signs to that we have to attack.

MR PRIOR: Could I maybe try and illustrate that a bit further by an example? If for example a tour bus with white people were driving over that bridge, would you have attacked that bus?

MR DOLO: I take it we would have attacked it if it were having settlers, occupants.

MR PRIOR: Even though they were unconnected to Sterkspruit?

MR DOLO: I take it so. The initiative it would be depending on me.

MR PRIOR: I see, so that would be the decision you'd make on the ground then and there?

MR DOLO: Yes. We were there for those specific operations.

MR PRIOR: Yes but you were there to attack vehicles that were going to Sterkspruit specifically?

MR LAX: Mr Prior, what he said, his evidence so far is that the person whose job it was to provide the early warning knew exactly which vehicles what was intended to attack.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: That's you evidence as I understand it?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Presumably he wouldn't have given you a signal if a vehicle wasn't amongst those came past. He would have only have given you a signal if it was the vehicles that were part of your reconnaissance and part of your information gathering process and your intelligence. Those would have been the vehicles you would have attacked? Do I understand it correctly?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Thank you for the clarity, I'll leave it there.

MR PRIOR: I just need to put this to you. Mr Griesel, the white man, who was in the vehicle, he was in fact the driver. He was injured in the upper body, the shoulder area and he went to the Sterkspruit hospital. You don't disagree with that?

MR DOLO: Yes, I don't disagree.

MR PRIOR: He certainly wasn't fatally injured he had flesh wounds which were treated and he was later discharged. I need to put to you that Mr Ndeleni was also injured, that is the black man. Do you accept that?

MR DOLO: I don't deny that.

MR PRIOR: And in fact when you noticed it was a black man in the vehicle, you called off or stopped the attack, is that right?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And you allowed the vehicle then to pass over the bridge?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Thank you I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Sorry, just one point I wanted to clarify. It is correct is it that you went there about June, July 1992?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman, I will call Mr Makoala to the witness stand.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: (sworn states)

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Makoala is it correct that EXHIBIT D is your affidavit?

MR MAKOALA: That is correct.

MR MTHEMBU: And is it further correct that you have read Mr Dolo's affidavit and you wish same to be incorporated into your affidavit?

MR MAKOALA: That is correct, I read it and I would like it to be incorporated into mine.

MR MTHEMBU: And you also confirm Mr Dolo's evidence in the main?

MR MAKOALA: Yes that is correct.

MR MTHEMBU: Now would you please tell the Committee what role you played in this attack, did you fire any shots or not?

MR MAKOALA: I did not shoot in this attack.

MR MTHEMBU: Is there anything further that you wish to tell the Committee or is that your testimony?

MR MAKOALA: I would like to say to the Committee we were engaged in the armed struggle and I was also a soldier and I took orders from my commander. I was committed because we were really fighting for the liberation of the Africans.

Comrade Dolo explained already that the war was between the Africans and the Settlers, in other words the oppressors. It was a fight between the oppressors and the oppressed. I am not sorry for what I did.

MR MTHEMBU: And is that your evidence?

MR MAKOALA: That is correct.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Chairperson, I have no further questions.

MR PRIOR: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: No questions Mr Chairman.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman I take it what he said last week is also relevant to these proceedings because - thank you.

Mr Makoala were you also on this occasion as you were in the Lady Grey Hershel Sterkspruit ambush where Mrs Brummer was killed, were you also the person who gave the signal of the approaching vehicle?

MR MAKOALA: Which attack are you referring to sir?

MR PRIOR: This one that you've asked the amnesty for today, the Sterkspruit Mayaphuti Bridge on the Zastron Sterkspruit border.

MR MAKOALA: No it was not myself.

MR PRIOR: Who gave the signal of the approaching vehicle?

MR MAKOALA: I do not quite remember who gave the signal because these incidents took place long time ago and I was involved in many incidents, I do not remember very well.

MR PRIOR: Is this incident fairly vague in your memory, this particular one?

MR MAKOALA: Can you repeat your question sir?

MR PRIOR: Is this particular incident fairly vague, you can't remember much detail about this incident?

MR MAKOALA: There are parts where I remember and some I do not remember.

MR PRIOR: Well what weapon did you have with you?

MR MAKOALA: I had a 3.8 special.

MR PRIOR: And did you use it on that occasion? Did you fire any shots at this vehicle?

MR MAKOALA: No, I did not use it.

MR PRIOR: Why not?

MR MAKOALA: Comrade Dolo was the commander of the unit and he ordered that we should not shoot. I followed an order, I did not shoot.

MR PRIOR: Was he the only person who shot on that occasion?

MR MAKOALA: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: I want to suggest something to you. If you had managed to stop that vehicle, in other words caused it to come to a standstill, was the 3.8 used to then execute or finally shoot the people, occupants? In other words the coup de grace?

MR MAKOALA: Repeat your question please?

MR PRIOR: I want to suggest something to you because it seems to have happened in the application that we will hear later on, that the R4 would be used to shoot at the vehicle while it was moving, if that was then brought to a standstill by that shooting, the 3.8's in other words the handguns would be then used to finish off the occupants of the vehicle? Was that the part of the plan?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it was part of the plan but an order was issued out and I was a soldier just following the orders. I would not do anything that was not ordered by my commander.

MR PRIOR: But you knew that while you were standing on the road waiting for a vehicle to approach that you would then go and finish off the occupants with your handgun?

MR MAKOALA: Please elaborate on your question sir?

MR PRIOR: I am trying to understand the role that you were to play there because it seems that you were just standing there, you did absolutely nothing. Was your role to be the following - if the vehicle had been brought to a standstill by, after it had been shot at with the R4 rifle, your job was then to go and finish off the occupants with your handgun?

MR MAKOALA: I was deployed in the assault group that's correct, I was going to attack that car, the occupants of the car.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying you would have only have attacked once orders had been given you to do specific things or did you know beforehand what your role was to be or your task was to be? Is that clear to you?

MR MAKOALA: I was deployed and I had to wait for an order from my commander. If he said shoot I would have shot.

MR PRIOR: Look at bundle B. These are photographs, photograph 1, 2, 3 and 4 which were taken on the 27th May 1995 during a pointing out that you did, do you agree that that is the spot where the ambush took place? If you look at photographs 2, 3 and 4 where you are pointing out certain things, are those the positions that your units were in during the ambush?

MR MAKOALA: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Did you notice who the occupants of the vehicle were at the time when the ambush commenced?

CHAIRPERSON: It's a very difficult question Mr Prior. When did the ambush commence in your opinion, when the man signalled?

MR PRIOR: Well once the shooting started, maybe I should be more specific, once the shooting started were you able to see who the occupants were?

MR MAKOALA: I realised that some of the occupants were the Boers. After the car had passed Comrade Dolo issued out an order and we realised that there was an African in that car.

MR PRIOR: When you talk about a car was it a pickup, a bakkie?

MR MAKOALA: It was a bakkie.

MR PRIOR: Was there anyone on the back of the bakkie that you remember?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, there was someone.

MR PRIOR: And who was he, do you know who he was?

MR MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: Was it an African person?

MR MAKOALA: I explained already that I do not remember whether it was an African or not but I do remember there was a person at the back of the bakkie.

MR PRIOR: How did you get to that position, that is at the Mayaphuti Bridge, on that morning? How did you arrive there?

MR MAKOALA: An African man, Nopise, drove us.

MR PRIOR: And after the attack where did you go?

MR MAKOALA: We went to Mangeneni’s place.

MR PRIOR: And thereafter?

MR MAKOALA: In the afternoon we went back to our base at Jozannashoek.

MR PRIOR: I want to refer to page 4 of the bundle, that is the annexure to your amnesty application. According to your list, the only two matters where your two co-applicant Mr Dolo says he was involved was the Mayaphuti Bridge, that's the first one you list and the Lady Grey ambush, do you confirm that?

MR MAKOALA: Yes I confirm that.

MR PRIOR: When you mention the Sterkspruit Hotel attack, the Kenny that you refer to there, who are you referring to?

MR MAKOALA: I am referring to Kenny Mudibula.

MR PRIOR: I want to refer you to page 34 of the bundle, it's an English translation of the Sotho handwriting or the statement from page 17 to 31. Obviously you've been through this with your attorney? Just for your comment, under Sterkspruit Hotel, Moleko Hotel, you said "I was myself, Kleintjie, T.J. Mokala, Kenny Peledolo, Jabu Dr Zamzam - I don't know his real names - and Tembu Okapi."

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman, I'm not sure whether these statements have since been cancelled as part of a bundle or not because ...[inaudible] I have has a stripe right across.

MR PRIOR: Yes that's so, it doesn't make it any less a document, it was simply crossed through for the purposes of this application.

MR MTHEMBU: But now if they have been cancelled would it be fair to ask the witness all those issues, it didn't form part of this bundle.

CHAIRPERSON: But the document has been available at other hearings hasn't it, where they hadn't been crossed out. Everything has been crossed out on this one except what is relevant to the Zastron Bridge incident.

MR MTHEMBU: Correct Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: That is merely to confirm that that is what we should read now. But now counsel is cross-examining on other matters.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I'll leave it, I'll raise it at a different time because that other matter is coming up again.

CHAIRPERSON: Well if it is going to be raised surely you should raise it with the witness now? That he said it not once but three times as I think?

MR PRIOR: But I'll raise it, he can ponder it, he can formulate an answer and give it to us because this matter, the Lady Grey matter, is going to be put on the role again Mr Chairman, it's been adjourned to a date to be arranged so obviously that matter will be raised again at that stage.

I've no further questions. Any re-examination?

MR MTHEMBU: None Mr Chair, thank you.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Just one thing, according to the evidence of Mr Dolo you had no knowledge of this operation until you got there to the scene where this attack was going to happen, is that right?

MR MAKOALA: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: So how did you know the orders for this operation were issued by Mr Mphahlele?

MR MAKOALA: Can you repeat your question please.

MR PRIOR: How did you know then if you had no prior knowledge of this operation until you got there, how did you know that the orders were issued by Mphahlele?

MR MAKOALA: Mr Mphahlele was the director of operations and I knew that all the operations were issued out by him even though we had other commanders working under him.

MR PRIOR: So was this just an assumption on you part or did you have direct knowledge of that?

MR MAKOALA: It was my knowledge of the things.

MR PRIOR: Well how did you acquire that knowledge, who spoke to you, who told you, did you speak to Mphahlele yourself, how did you personally acquire that knowledge?

MR MAKOALA: We had political classes during our training and it was explained about the chain of command and how the chain of command worked and I got it from those classes. Now it was within me, it was something within me, it's something that I knew - that's shortly my answer.

MR PRIOR: So you knew that Mphahlele was a director of operations, is that what you're saying?

MR MAKOALA: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: And therefore you made the assumption that because you knew the line of command that this command must have emanated from him?

MR MAKOALA: According to me yes, there was no operation that could be conducted without his knowledge.

MR PRIOR: Thank you. After - you've heard the evidence of Mr Dolo that he says after some days they had heard that one of the settlers had been taken to the hospital at Sterkspruit, do you remember he said that?

MR MAKOALA: I remember.

MR PRIOR: Did you hear that as well?

MR MAKOALA: I also heard.

MR PRIOR: Did you hear whether the African person was also injured in that attack?

MR MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman may I just enquire - is the Committee satisfied with the photographs and the plan and the distances - I have Mr van Vuuren who took the photographs at the pointings out, if there's nothing unclear then I will....[intervention}

CHAIRPERSON: Nothing really hangs on the distances do they? Now we have a version which is, as I understand it, uncontested.

MR PRIOR: And it's consistent with what Mr Griesel's affidavit says - I just want to enquire from my learned friends for the applicants that they're not challenging the general thrust of Mr Griesel's affidavit, he's no longer with us and it seems to be consistent with what the applicants have said as well as the photographs.

MR LAX: Just refer us to the page Mr Prior, of Mr Griesel's affidavit?

MR PRIOR: 72 - basically in two paragraphs - paragraph 1, 2 and 3 - he sets out the facts that he was travelling towards Sterkspruit, he saw three men at the bridge, he heard shots, he felt a burning sensation in his arm and his passenger went forward, the windows were shot out and he drove to the police station. He then describes his injuries.

MR LAX: Gentlemen, any objections to that? You've presumably read it?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman I have read it myself, I don't see any reason you cannot - I don't have any objections Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: I couldn't see any reason why you would object to it.

CHAIRPERSON: You have no objection to that affidavit going in and that therefore there's no need to call any supplementary evidence in that regard. Thank you and Mr Mthembu?

MR MTHEMBU: No objections Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Yes I have one of the victims Mr - I've actually put it to one of the witnesses that he would be called - Mr Ndeleni who is present. Mr Chairman I propose to call him, he will be very short evidence, just to satisfy the requirement that the victims have also been given an opportunity to address the committee. I call then Mr Ndeleni, please.

Is Mr Ndeleni present?

MR LAX: I remember seeing him down the passage - oh here he comes.

MR PRIOR: The statement appears at page 65.

THOMAS NDELENI MJALI: (sworn states)

EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: On the 18th November 1992 you were travelling in a bakkie being driven by Mr Griesel and you were driving from Bloemfontein towards Sterkspruit, is that correct?

MR MJALI: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: And you had another person with you, is that right?

MR MJALI: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Do you remember his name?

MR MJALI: Petrus Tladi.

MR PRIOR: And was he at the back of the bakkie?

MR MJALI: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Was it an open bakkie or was it a bakkie with a canopy?

MR MJALI: It had a canopy.

MR PRIOR: And I understand from your statement that you made to the police way back in 1992 that you had left Bloemfontein at about 3 o'clock in the morning?

MR MJALI: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: I want you just to pause there and just tell us were you working for Mr Griesel at that time?

MR MJALI: Yes, we were working for him.

MR PRIOR: And what line of work did Mr Griesel - was Mr Griesel?

MR MJALI: He was an electrician.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, I suggested to one of the witnesses that it may have been Eskom but my understanding was that you were laying cables, electrical cables in the Sterkspruit area, is that correct?

MR MJALI: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Was that for Eskom or was that a totally different contract?

MR MJALI: It was a different contract.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, alright. So that was the purpose of you driving from Bloemfontein to Sterkspruit at that time. Can you tell the Committee what occurred as you approached the Sterkspruit Mayaphuti Bridge, that is the bridge over the Orange River?

MR MJALI: When we approached Mayaphuti Bridge we saw four men approaching from the sides. When we approached the bridge they pulled out their firearms and they shot at us. I was in the front with my boss and he said to me 'sak' your head we're being shot at. Because he was a person who usually trained, he went on driving, the rays were shattered and I could not see.

MR PRIOR: You say the windows - the glass was shattered?

MR MJALI: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Yes?

MR MJALI: A bullet hit him on the head at the bridge. God was with us because we managed to drive past the bridge. Peter was sitting at the back of the bakkie. He said these people pointed at us and said we were lucky to escape. My boss went on driving until...[intervention]

MR PRIOR: Did you drive through to Sterkspruit?

MR MJALI: Yes that's correct, Sterkspruit.

MR PRIOR: Did you report there to the police station?

MR MJALI: We went straight to the police station sir.

MR PRIOR: And from there to the hospital?

MR MJALI: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct you were also injured in that shooting?

MR MJALI: Yes I was also injured.

MR PRIOR: And were you examined by the District Surgeon?

MR MJALI: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: It looks like Dr Du Plessis?

MR MJALI: That is his name.

MR PRIOR: What injuries did you have?

MR MJALI: The glasses cut me on the face.

MR PRIOR: They were described as one centimetre abrasions on the top of the head.

MR MJALI: Yes even on my head.

MR PRIOR: And the opinion that was expressed, I just ask you for your comment that this was caused by shrapnel or glass?

Is that possible? Pieces of the bullets that hit inside or wherever the vehicle or the glass that was broken, that caused your injuries?

MR MJALI: Yes I was told so by the doctor.

MR PRIOR: Just one aspect - you said four men, you noticed four men at the bridge and you said they started shooting, can you be a bit more specific, is that your general impression or are you able to say each one of those four men fired shots?

MR MJALI: All these people were armed but I did not see whether they all shot.

MR PRIOR: So if you said that it's just your impression that they were all shooting, you can't say with any certainty?

MR MJALI: I think so sir.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you sure that they were all armed?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike was not on.

MR PRIOR: The question was are you sure that they were all armed?

MR MJALI: They were all armed.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman that appears also from Phila Dolo's affidavit at page 7, he indicated that they were all armed.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I'm not reading his affidavit. At page 65, paragraph 5 "ek het op geen stadium 'n geweer of pistool gesien by die swart man nie"

MR MJALI: Can you please repeat the question.

CHAIRPERSON: In the affidavit that you made on the 18th November 1992 you said "At no point did I see a pistol or a weapon in the hands of the black men."

MR MJALI: I saw them with guns, maybe I was scared when I gave this statement.

MR PRIOR: Yes that's clear from his statement, Mr Chairman, I think it doesn't take the matter any further, the applicant's confirm they were all armed.

CHAIRPERSON: Okay.

MR PRIOR: Thank you I have no - that's the evidence.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, only one question, the Chair has already asked the other one.

Also somewhere in paragraph 3 of the first sentence-

Then the last paragraph, before I ask the question, paragraph 6 - not the last paragraph Mr Chairman, "During the incident I didn't notice any other person in the immediate vicinity except for the two black people at the bridge and a white Isuzu Bakkie."

My question is, today you are telling the Committee that you saw four people and in your affidavit you talked about two people only - you saw on the day in question. Can you explain that to the Committee?

MR MJALI: When we went to the bridge I saw four people - two on the right and two on the left. These people were four.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions now.

CHAIRPERSON: You not only said two, you described the two people that you saw? Can you explain that?

MR MJALI: I saw four people, two on the left side and two on the right side.

MR LAX: Mr Mthembu?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair.

Mr Mjali, is it correct that when you made this statement the events or the incident were still fresh in your mind?

MR MJALI: Yes, it was fresh. That is why I couldn't even think properly, I was shocked.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chair, no further questions.

FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Mr Mjali, how long did you work for Mr Griesel at that time?

MR MJALI: It was about a year and nine months.

MR PRIOR: And how long was that contract that you were working on in that area. How long had you already been working in Sterkspruit for at that time?

MR MJALI: I really do not remember for how was the contract when we worked at Savilles, but we had worked from the foundation of the building until we finished.

MR PRIOR: So were you wiring a house?

MR MJALI: It was at Savilles Furnishers at Sterkspruit?

MR PRIOR: Savilles?

MR MJALI: Savilles, yes.

MR PRIOR: And you're not sure how long you'd been in the area for at the time the shooting happened?

MR MJALI: I do not remember.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you usually drive there each day or did you got and stay at Sterkspruit?

MR MJALI: We travelled every day.

CHAIRPERSON: So you arrived at this bridge early in the morning every day?

MR MJALI: Every morning sir.

MR PRIOR: There's just one question arising, through you Mr Chair, if the witness is able to say what time approximately this occurred?

MR MJALI: I think it was between half past five and five.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, that's the evidence that I have in respect of this matter.

CHAIRPERSON: Gentlemen it seems that this matter is similar to the other ones that we have discussed, that there may be

additional evidence available particularly in the light of the statement which I've showed you both this morning that the PAC APLA will be issuing a statement to the Amnesty Committee which will enable us to reach finality on the matter and it seems to me that we can merely at this stage adjourn the matter through a date to be arranged if that suits you gentlemen?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may we adjourn at this stage, I don't know if lunch is ready and maybe reconvene earlier, say at half past one and commence with the matter the application of Mr Gqomfa?

CHAIRPERSON: Well is everybody here for that?

MR PRIOR: Well Mr Chairman, Mr Wagenaar who knows about the matter who has been in communication with us hasn't arrived yet, I don't know whether I should make enquiries?

CHAIRPERSON: I suggest you do from what we've heard in the last few weeks, things happen to people on the road in this part of the country and something may have happened to delay him.

MR PRIOR: I will do so, thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: We'll now adjourn - I don't think half past one is very realistic Mr Prior, I think quarter to two will enable the staff to handle the matter better. We'll adjourn now till quarter to two.

MR PRIOR: Good morning Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, may the matter which stood over from last week, that is the Lady Grey, Sterkspruit attack where Mrs Brummer et al were involved. The applicants were Martin Phila Dolo and Mr James Makoala. May that be adjourned at this stage Mr Chairman, I do have members of the family of Mr Tsimani present, I'd like him to get away. The initial indication is that the allegations made by the

Tsimani family need to be properly investigated. I would not like to comment on the state of those preliminary investigations at this stage but in my view I think the matter needs to be fully canvassed and we'll require some time.

May the matter then stand adjourned, sine die, with the date to be arranged with all the legal representatives and the interested parties as soon as those investigations have been completed?

CHAIRPERSON: Anything to say gentlemen?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None Mr Chairman. I'm in agreement with what Mr Prior is saying, that it must be fully investigated if it need be. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: It also appears to me that this may be one of the cases which may be effected by information which is to be supplied by the PAC and APLA which will be a general application and this seems to fall into that category.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Mr Chairman, it falls in that category.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu do you agree?

MR MTHEMBU: I have nothing to say Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Do you request that the matter now be adjourned to a date to be arranged and to a venue to be arranged.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman we proceed now with the amnesty application of Luyanda Gqomfa, application 0949 of '96.

The appearances are as in the previous matter, except that Mr Mthembu is no longer appearing, Mr Mbandazayo appears for the applicant. He is the only applicant in this matter. Mr Chairman may the bundle that's been prepared be marked "A", and I have put up a second bundle of namely photographs as "B". They indicate the points of relevance in my view, relevant to this particular amnesty application, and my I place on record Mr Chairman, that I have conferred with my learned friend, Mr Mbandazayo, who has taken instructions on the bundles, particular bundle "B", and by consent the bundle "B" can go in as being an accurate reflection of the various points which are depicted on those photographs.

CHAIRPERSON: Will Mr Gqomfa's affidavit the be "C".

MR PRIOR: I omitted to say that. Yes, his affidavit will been "C". Mr Chairman, may I just for the record place the following on record, the notices were sent out, the section 19 notices, to victims. The deceased in this matter was a Mr Smit who died during this operation, during this attack. His widow was informed, and she obtained the services of Mr Jan Wagenaar, attorney with Wagenaar, Muller and Du Plessis of Pretoria. My I place on record, Mr Chairman, that Mr Wagenaar had certain difficulties. This matter was set down for hearing for last week, but we accommodated him and set it down for today onwards. I, he is not present and I phoned him at the luncheon adjournment and he indicated that he would not be appearing because of certain difficulties he had had in obtaining funding of his client through the Legal Aid. Mr Chairman, I don't think this is the time to go into the merits of what Mr Wagenaar told me, I accept what he has said to me there. I know that there was some difficulties that he had, or some objections that he had voiced to the TRC, and those were taken up with the relevant officers there. Suffice to say that he is not appearing. His client has been informed about the position and there is no appearance from the widow of Mr Smit. I indicated to him nevertheless that this matter as in the case of the other matters would be postponed to hear evidence from the PAC or APLA High Command, and he indicated that at that stage he my well have been properly instructed and my appear at that stage, but that decision would be made at a later time. The other victims that were involved was a Mr Deon Maartens who was in the vehicle driven by Mr Smit, unfortunately he has since passed away in a motor accident unrelated to this event. A Mr A Franzsen who is present today and a Mr B Maliehe, he has been given notice, but we've had no feed back from him as to whether he wants to appear in the matter or not. The implicated person is as in the other matter, Mr Mphahlele and he is present. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, do you wish your client to be sworn in?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Chairperson.

LUYANDA GQOMFA: (Duly sworn in, states).

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Gqomfa, do you confirm that the affidavit before the Committee was returned by you and that you abide by its contents.

MR GQOMFA: That's correct.

Now, just before I finish the paragraph I would like you to explain to the Committee what transpired when Happy Letlapa Mphahlele came to you and it was decided that you get a car for operation and what type of operation was that one?

MR GQOMFA: Shortly I can say, on that particular day, it was on the 18th of March 1992. It was a day of the referendum as Mr Mbandazayo had said. When this Comrade came, Comrade Happy, and the other two Comrades, he was the third one. There was another Comrade who was providing us with transport that was at Datsun. It was blueish in colour, greenish in colour.

We took the direction to Zastron, from Sterkspruit to Zastron. I think we took the right-hand route. We stopped at about 10 - 15 kilometres. We alighted from the Datsun, and the Datsun went back. After which a bakkie, Isuzu, came from the Biscuit Bakery. The colour was cream, the colour of the bakkie was off-white. There was only one occupant in that bakkie. We decided not to shoot the people who were in that car because we didn't have a reason, we didn't have a grudge, we didn't hold a grudge to other Africans but we wanted their car. We had no reason to shoot at that person. All we wanted from them was transport. We wanted to use their transport. We took the car from him. We gave him a R20 note. We told them to go to the Police Station to report that the APLA cadres took his car. We ensured him that he would get his car in the same condition. We left that Comrade there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you, Mr Gqomfa, explain to the Committee how did you approach him? Were you having your firearms pointed at him, how, can you explain to the Committee the manner in which you managed to take the car from him?

MR GQOMFA: What happened is this, this car was approaching us. There were three or four of us. We had our pistols. There was only one person who was holding a pistol. It was Comrade Mphahlele. When they came he shot in the air, the Comrade shot in the air. As he was an elderly person he was shocked and he stopped. That's when we took his car.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you go on, I don't know, I would like some guidance from the Interpreters, but it seems to me it might be better if the microphone was a little bit further from the applicant. Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I will proceed to paragraph 11:

Now, you are explaining in this paragraph how you were deployed, how you were armed. Can you tell the Committee, at the time you were deployed, were you aware what type of operation are you going to embark on in that area when you went there?

MR GQOMFA: Before we could go to that place we didn't know where the operation was, but as cadres we knew that if we were deployed inside the country, we knew what type of job we would perform. I'm not sure if you're satisfied with my answer.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell the Committee, at what stage did you become aware of the target?

MR GQOMFA: When we took the transport, we didn't know what we were going to do, but we knew that there should be an operation and the details of the operation. We only knew that we were taking the arms where we alighted from the vehicle.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, you haven't answered the question. The question was, at what stage did you become aware of the target. It's really quite a simple question. Do you not understand the question? I'm just trying to help, because your own lawyer is asking you the question and you seem to have difficulty answering it.

MR MBANDAZAYO: My question is, at what stage did you become aware of the target. You have explained to the Committee that as a soldier you were aware that there is an operation which was going to take place. Now my question is, tell the Committee at what stage did you become aware of the target?

MR GQOMFA: It is like this, we got to know about the operation when we taking the guns. We were not told about the target, because according to the nature of the operation - as there were cars that were going up and down, he with was the one who would tell us about the ambush. He was the one that was going to shoot first and the car that he would be shot at that be the one that would be identified as the target.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I explain to the Committee, you talk about the arms, you became aware when you were taking the arms. Can you explain to the Committee this process, at what stage did you have to go and take arms, was before you took the vehicle, the bakkie, or after that? Can you explain to the Committee?

MR GQOMFA: When we were taking this gentleman's transport, as we came using this bakkie, we were approaching the road to Zastron - to Sterkspruit, but still in the Transkei area. It's where we met with this bakkie, the one that took us back to the place were we took the vehicle. That's where we got this ammunition from this bakkie taking them to another bakkie. It's where the briefing took place.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) that you got? What was said to you during that briefing?

MR GQOMFA: As this Comrade was also the Commander of the unit and the Director of the operation that same time. We were on our way to perform an operation, that was going to be an ambush, that's the type of operation. As he would be the Commander of unit, he would be the one who would spring the attack. Automatically when he starts shooting we would follow

INTERPRETER: May the speaker please repeat the last phrase.

MR GQOMFA: That's where we would take our guns as I have explained earlier on.

MR PRIOR: So he would - just to clarify this - he would know which vehicle to shoot at, and on his opening fire you would follow suite?

MR GQOMFA: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: Thanks. That's much clearer, thank you very much.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I proceed Mr Chairman? Mr Chairman paragraph 12 he has already covered is the first line, I will start with the second,

Now, you are saying in this affidavit there were four occupants of the car and they ran away. You also said in the affidavit one did not survive. Can you explain that to the Committee, what do you mean by that?

MR GQOMFA: What I mean is this. Our aim was to kill everybody in that car except the African who was there, but unfortunately the way they were doing these things they could - it shows they were trained people, more especially the two of them, the whites. That's the people I had my focus on, but they were so fortunate that they escaped. We didn't have a problem with the African, the third one was there, we got him there. There was no chance for him to survive, because that would be a clear betrayal. If we would let him live whereas we went there for a operation. That will mean taking our struggle two steps backwards.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee when you arrived at this person who was there, was he injured or was he still nothing happened to him, he was okay?

MR GQOMFA: I assumed that he was injured. He had some bullets, some bullets striked him, because he was outside the car, he was out of the car. He was sitting down outside the car, out of the car.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you for the benefit ...(inaudible) or was he laying down? Can you just explain to the Committee?

MR GQOMFA: As the car was facing the Sterkspruit direction, this African was just across the road just between the transport and the fence, he was in a sitting position, he was sitting on his buttocks facing the car, because as we were approaching him he was looking at us, he was facing us.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, can you tell the Committee what was holding him there to sitting there, was there somebody there, with him, or not?

MR GQOMFA: I'm not sure whether he was injured or not, but there was another African who was there, then Comrade Ben, the one who was pointing a gun at him, because when we saw him sitting down there he was with Ben pointing him with a gun.

MR MBANDAZAYO: ...(inaudible) did not shoot him? He was just pointing him with a firearm?

MR GQOMFA: We could see his problem. Firstly he was not yet militarily trained, he was not yet used to the firearms and maybe as he was still fiddling with the gun, with the weapon. He didn't even know how to use it, maybe the cassette from the firearm fell. He was not in a position to shoot him at the time.

MR PRIOR: The interpretation was cassette, do they actually mean magazine?

MR GQOMFA: Yes sir, I'm referring to the magazine.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, the last paragraph of 12,.

Can you tell the Committee what was the reason for you petrol-bombing the car?

MR GQOMFA: Let me put it this way - can the speaker please repeat the first part of the answer? As there was a plenary session at Umtata for members of the High Command, we were told that we should make sure that our operations are different from those of criminals. That is why we decided to burn the car - it was not part and parcel of the plan that we should take their cars, but we were after there lives as they knew the nature of our battle from long ago, from the time of our ancestors. They knew that the enemy was powerful. That is why we were forced to take over in the battle, because our great grandparents were defeated. It is because their firearms were so powerful and there's were outdated. Irrespective of how armed are you, there is nothing that you cannot take away from the nation, it's the power to go on. The fire to go on in your battle, you can take the firearms, but you can not take the fire, the burning spirit from the person to go on, the fire.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, you still haven't told us why you burned the car. It's is not clear to me at any rate.

MR GQOMFA: I think I've explained that. I said, it was necessary that our operation should be different from the pure criminal operations.

MR PRIOR: But you could have left the car there and not taken it. Why was it necessary to burn it, that's what I'm trying to understand? You didn't have to steal it, but that would have shown that you weren't stealing anything. Why did you have to burn it, that's what I'm trying to understand?

MR GQOMFA: You mean you don't get my reason?

MR PRIOR: I wouldn't be asking you if I did? So I really don't understand. You didn't have to steal the car, you didn't have to steal anything, you wouldn't have been seen as criminals, that's what you said. You wanted to distinguish between yourselves and criminals?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: So, where does the fire come into it - why did you have to burn the car?

MR GQOMFA: I said to you white man, the directive that we got is that our operation should be unique, it should be different from purely a criminal, therefor if we involved the element of fire - and another thing is this, as we are fighting the powerful enemy as I have already referred you to the history of our great grandparents. If the nation can make fire it's automatically obvious that nation can liberate the country. That's why we decided to destroy everything that belongs to them.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) you said that you were powerful by using fire and burning the vehicle and so on. No, I just understand now, it's fine.

almost 2 - 3 kilometres from the bridge

Now can you explain the to Committee where was your RV, please, where you had your briefing?

MR GQOMFA: Let me put it this way, when you are talking about the RV, are you referring to our meeting place?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay.

MR GQOMFA: After we had finished, after we had accomplished your mission we went back driving in a car. We abandoned the car on the other side of the bridge. We went to the bus-stop, that's where we were waiting for the car. We had out debriefing there, because even this other Comrade was there because we were staying at different places.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr, Chairman, last point at paragraph 14,

Can you explain the transport you were using as a getaway car was a bottle-green Datsun. What do you mean by that? Did you have a getaway car? Can you explain this paragraph to the Committee, paragraph 14?

MR GQOMFA: It is like this, when we left the scene of the operation we moved to the bus-stop where we were going to meet. The other Comrades that I was not staying with, they were going to take the firearms with them. As I was staying alone I would take a taxi, that's why I am referring to a getaway car.

MR LAX: That's the same car you referred to earlier in your evidence that took you to the place where you obtained the vehicle that you then drove to the bridge, is that right?

CHAIRPERSON: Who was driving it?

MR GQOMFA: There was a Comrade called KK, Oupa, I don't know his other name. It's not Xhosa, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: ...(inaudible) Khotle, who we've heard about in other matters?

MR GQOMFA: It's not Xhosa. It's not Khotle, it's Oupa KK.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Gqomfa, what else do you want to tell this Committee? Anything that you have left out regarding this incident, what happened during this operation? Is there anything maybe you have left out, you want to mention it to the Committee?

MR GQOMFA: There's one thing I would like to clarify concerning this operation. I'm sure everybody knows the way we were oppressed as a nation, more especially the Africans. There are many things that took place, more especially the Africans at large, things that were ...(indistinct) by the Government of the day. If people can remember there were even laws that were passed where the Africans would be placed in the reserved areas, the remote areas. With the aim of surplus labour for the farmers and the other industries that were in there. And another purpose was to make sure that they subsidise the wages of the migrant workers. In order for them to control the influx of the Africans, as they made the Africans strangers in their own land, they were saying that the Africans cannot stay in this land because the land was too hot and they cannot go the Heaven, because Heaven is too far also. The industrial areas called BIC or RIC were established, Border Industrial Corporations or Reserved Industrial Corporations. There was a law that was passed that a white man will always be a manager and a black man will work under him, but when you look at this thing, this person was actually managing the oppression of the Africans, because the Africans, the aim was to keep the Africans away. We were doing those operations, my political understanding is that we were doing those operations due to those reasons, those factors. Concerning the families of the deceased, it would be painful if they are not here today. I sympathise with them because of such actions, because when a person dies, it's quite a big thing, and we know that it's very easy to destroy a life of a person. It's very difficult to bring the life of a person back. I would request the gentleman to pass that message to the families, the mother and the children and the relatives. I shall end there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Are you saying - I hear you saying now at the time that you killed Mr Smit there near the Mayaphuti Bridge that you have the same feelings for him, or did you have no feeling for him at that time - I just want to get this clear in my mind - at the time that you killed him, did you have those same feelings, but you were just carrying out our instructions, or did you have no feeling for him because of your political objectives, beliefs and your ideologies?

MR GQOMFA: I'm detecting from the principal ...(inaudible), but I'm also a person and all the cadres are also people. I'm passing this message as a human-being.

MR PRIOR: At the time that you fired into his body with your R5, while he was sitting there, did you feel, well, look he's also a human-being, I sympathise with them, but I'm doing my job as a soldier, or did you have no feeling for the man when you shot him through the body? I'm trying to understand where you're coming from.

MR GQOMFA: Where I'm coming from, how?

MR PRIOR: What was in your mind, what was going through your mind at the time that you shot this man? He was sitting there in front of you, he couldn't go anywhere.

MR GQOMFA: Let me put it this way. My feeling was that I was very angry. How? First of all, is that the two people survived. If they can lead - I'm an African, my life had no value in this country. Anyway, that today, as an African, my life is in their destiny. What I had at that time, is what I'm telling you. That's what happened at that time.

MR LAX: Sorry, we're having great difficulty hearing the translation. There's a lot of feedback. Solly, I see you at the back there trying to sort something out. The feedback is really quite difficult to hear what the translator is saying.

Just talk please translators, let's just hear you say a few words.

TRANSLATOR: Can you hear me now?

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

I just want to know at that time, were you simply carrying out the orders of Letlapa Mphahlele when you shot this man sitting on the ground, or did you do so because you wanted to kill him, as a white man you saw him as the enemy, you had hatred towards him, you had no respect for him? That's what I am trying to distinguish - were you simply carrying out an order, or are you saying because of your political beliefs or feelings towards the white oppressor, those were the reason why you shot and killed him. Do you understand what I'm driving at?

MR GQOMFA: ...(no English translation).

MR PRIOR: It's between the two choices I'm giving you.

MR GQOMFA: I ...(indistinct) problem about this white which you are using, but let my try and accommodate you as you understand the way you do. Firstly, there is a difference between hatred, killing a person because you hate him, because we hate him as he is. There's also a difference when you kill a person because you associate him and at the same time he takes part in the situation at the time. When I explain it further about your question whether a white, we were not killing this person because we hated him as a white person per se because the nature of our struggle was not a racial struggle, but the orientation of whites is that because they were the ones who were killed, they thought that it was a racial struggle, because we didn't define in any ...(indistinct) because her or his colour as it is written in our books that you do not hate the "sjambok", but you hate the man who is using it. You can't say that you are hating the "sjambok", not the person who is using the "sjambok", because if the "sjambok" is just laying down there, it is harmless, but the source of pain is the person who takes that "sjambok" and hits you with it.

On the question of obeying orders, in each and every operation - I'm sure Mr Lax is aware of this, because it seems as if he has a military background - that in each and every operation there should be an order. An element of order was there and also an element of commitment.

MR PRIOR: Finished?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, I'm finished.

MR PRIOR: He was killed, Mr Smit was killed, are you saying because he represented the oppressor, or what the oppressor stood for, or is that not close? You say you never killed him because he was just a white man, you killed him because of something else, was he part of - did he represent the oppressor to you in that situation?

MR GQOMFA: Mr Chairperson, let us put it this way, I would like you to follow me in all these angles. I've given you the political background and the historical background, that firstly, politically, how was this person a victim, that he was the manager of the unjust laws.

MR PRIOR: Alright, he was the manager of unjust laws.

MR GQOMFA: Of unjust laws. I'll go back, I think I have explained that when you take this back from the forced removals when the land was taken from the Africans by people like you at the time, we were taken as people who did not belong here. We were Bantu's and we were taken to the Bantu areas or the so-called reserved areas. This South Africa was for the whites. Even if you stayed twenty or thirty years, or you were born in that area, you did not belong there. If you were Xhosa speaker you would go to Transkei or Ciskei, if you were Sotho speaker, you were taken to Qwa-Qwa. What happened is that the whites tried that they were - there was a competition at the time of black unskilled labourers, because they were also unskilled labourers. But because the capitalists who were building the factories, they found out that the pressure that was exerted by whites because these people were supposed to be given high wages, because of their status - there is something that they call the colour-bar. They say "my kleur is my val" - that my colour is my status. The African whether he is qualified, he will remain a Kaffir. They said that these people had to be taken to the reserved areas so that they cannot come to South Africa, so that they can build industries in the areas that these people are staying, or near to them, because there would be a surplus of a work force and they would get low wages. That is an exploitation, because the capitalist was more interested in profit. A white man was supposed to be in a managerial position. Even when a black person is educated, but a white man would be a manger. When I am saying that they were administering the unjust laws, they were administering the influx laws. The question would come now, that at the time the apartheid law was crashed, the law was crashed in the books, but practically it was not removed. As the Africans were not fighting against apartheid per se, but were fighting against our land for the whole nation. I don't know whether you understand it.

On a military point view, the time I was killing these people, these people were trained personnel, even though before the operation I did not have their profile, because it was not part and parcel of the recognisance of the target.

MR PRIOR: At the time Mr Smit was killed, for the reasons you have now given ...(intervention)

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You say although you never saw the profile of the people in that car, you accept that your superiors who had done the intelligence work would have had that profile that Mr Smit and his colleagues in that vehicle were all militarily trained, is that what you're telling us?

MR GQOMFA: No, don't misinterpret me.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying you accepted that Mr Smit and the other occupants of that vehicle, the white people there, were all militarily trained?

MR GQOMFA: When you say all of them, how many were there?

MR PRIOR: Four, and one was an African man - a black man. So we're excluding him, because you excluded him. The three other occupants, the white people that were in that vehicle, are you saying you accepted that they were militarily trained?

MR GQOMFA: I'm saying that before I did not know that they were trained, but at the time we were shooting ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Do you accept in you mind, although you never knew the detail of their profile, did you assume, did you accept that they must have been militarily trained?

MR GQOMFA: I don't understand your question.

MR PRIOR: I don't know how other to put it, Mr Chairman. Maybe the Committee can assist.

ADV SANDI: Okay let me, can I come in then? Mr Gqomfa, did you personally know these people who were in the car, these white people?

MR GQOMFA: No, I did not know them.

ADV SANDI: Did anyone say to you he knew those people, that is before you went to this operation?

MR GQOMFA: No.

ADV SANDI: You had no information whatsoever about these people, is that correct?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Does that answer you, Mr Prior?

MR LAX: It doesn't answer what Mr Prior was putting to him, and he himself in his earlier answer implied that the people who were his Commanders in the attack and who had done the reconnaissance would have been aware, that's how he put it, they would have been aware of the profile of these people, and that they were militarily trained, that's how he put it. So, that's why Mr Prior asked him did he know that that was their profile - he said "no". The next logical question was, did you assume that they were militarily trained, and that's the answer we're waiting for.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Have I put it correctly, Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: Yes, precisely.

MR GQOMFA: Don't put words in my mouth.

MR LAX: Mr Gqomfa well then help us, if you think, if you say we're trying to put words in your mouth, put the position correctly.

MR GQOMFA: I'm saying that I did not know the profile of these people. What I was telling you was my understanding. Before the operation I was not given the background of these people, and as I have already said, I was not part of the reconnaissance of the target, but when I was shooting them at that time it was when I took a conclusion that these people were trained because of the way they were manoeuvring from the fire that was directed to them.

MR PRIOR: Well, on your version as you've put out in your amnesty application, and your affidavit, and the affidavits of the occupants of the vehicle that survived, it seems to me that these people at some stage just got out of the vehicle and started to run away, isn't that the position? Getting away from the danger, the shooting, is that correct?

MR GQOMFA: Where is the difference to what I've just said?

MR PRIOR: Alright. It would seem from the photographs Mr Smit had at some stage been shot at the back of the calf, at the back of the leg - I think if you look at photograph, in bundle "B", photograph 47. Do you see that?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: If you turn to photograph 10, that is the vehicle in which he was a passenger and where the people in the foreground are foraging in the veld according to they key, which you've agreed to, that is the position in which they found Mr Smit's body after he had been killed.

CHAIRPERSON: Not where they're foraging, Mr Prior. They found the body didn't they, as I understand, at point "G". Where they are foraging, is where they found five 5.56 cartridges - that's at "H".

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman, if you'll just give me a moment. Sorry, I'm looking at the wrong photo. Sorry, I can't make out point "G". Oh yes, sorry, that's the person on the right-hand side ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, sitting.

MR PRIOR: Yes, within a metre or two.

CHAIRPERSON: The three foragings where they found a number, not just one, where they found five cartridge cases.

MR PRIOR: Yes. That's 5.56. Yes, thank you for clearing that up, I was a bit - I couldn't see point "G" for a moment, I now see it.

Please look at photograph 10. I want to just try and sketch the position to you, can you see there are three people together, close together and somewhat to the right-hand side there's a single person, or solitary person sort of crouching down? That point has been given as "G", where the body was found of Mr Smith. And where these three people are, that point has been marked "H". The Police found five 5.65 cartridges in that position. Did you shoot Mr Smith at least five times from that position, or near that position?

MR GQOMFA: I don't know how many cartridges, I did not count.

MR PRIOR: It's just, Mr Chairman, I don't want to make the mistake again that we made in Heidelberg’s matter where we found that the trajectory of cartridges was between eight and sixteen or eighteen paces, so it would be difficult for me to draw any conclusions from that. Did you shoot at anyone else that Mr Smit who was in that position - that is now after the people had gotten out of the car and are running away?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Well then tell us in your own recall ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Before you ask him to do that, isn't it worthwhile finding out where he was on this photograph first and where he shot from, and then we'll move to the next phase, which is the killing of Mr Smit.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Can you possibly just assist us and put yourself on the scene, where you were when you shot Mr Smit with your R5?

MR GQOMFA: I would not be sure, but it's between "G" and the Police transport. I can just estimate, though I'm not sure that when we first shot we were in that position.

MR PRIOR: Is that the Police vehicle that one sees on the extreme right-hand side of the photograph?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: That's when you first shot at him?

MR GQOMFA: Not at him. I was standing in that position.

MR PRIOR: The people were in your way, or fleeing the scene?

MR GQOMFA: This is like this, when we first shooting, I was in this other side. I was shooting the car and the people when they were coming out of the car, when they were running out of the car I was running after them.

MR PRIOR: And you were firing at them?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, I was shooting.

MR PRIOR: And there were three of them that alighted from the car?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: That was two white men and one black man?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Because in your affidavit you say,

I'll come back to that. So, at this stage the three people jumped out of the car, you shot in their direction?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Were you aiming at anyone in particular?

MR GQOMFA: I was facing the people who were manoeuvring.

MR PRIOR: Were they moving from side to side as they were running away? When you say manoeuvring, what do you mean by that?

MR GQOMFA: When they got out of the car, one of them got out and he was bread-falling and he met another one. I didn't see them when they were crossing the fence, jumping over the fence, but I saw them while they were on the other side of the fence, but at the distance they then ran away.

MR LAX: You indicated with your fingers - which direction did they run in? They came from where the car is - in which direction did they go?

MR GQOMFA: In the direction of the four people here.

MR LAX: So they ran in the direction of the person who would be taking this photograph?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR LAX: And then, is there a whole lot of veld on this side, presumably there's a fence, you said there was some sort of fence?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, there was a fence.

MR LAX: At this point in time, you were standing somewhere on the other side of the road. You said somewhere midway between the point "G" and that Police vehicle you can see, is that right?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR LAX: I notice there's a gate entrance near where the Police vehicle is. Would it be somewhere near that?

MR GQOMFA: No, I didn't see a gate.

MR LAX: How far would you estimate that point from the burned out vehicle to the Police vehicle, approximately?

MR GQOMFA: I cannot estimate, because I didn't think that I would come here and I would be required to estimate the distance.

MR LAX: Well, I'll estimate it for you. It looks no more than 30 or 40 metres. Have a look at the photograph. Maybe 50 at the most.

MR GQOMFA: I cant' be sure.

MR LAX: We're just trying to get a sense of where you were standing then, but you were on the other side of the road, anyway?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: May I be of some assistance, Mr Chairman. In terms of bundle "B" at page - on the second page, page 2 of bundle "B", there's a measurement which says "from the burned out motor vehicle to the furthest cartridges". If one looks at photograph one, I think the further cartridge is marked exhibit - at "Z", that whole area, the distance is 1,76 metres. That may just give an idea the distance over which the incidence took place.

Can I move on, Mr Chairman. Mr Gqomfa, let me just try and understand, from the time that you started firing at this vehicle, had the vehicle got past your position, in other words, were you firing at it as it was moving away from you?

MR GQOMFA: No, we were firing as it was passing.

MR PRIOR: And then you continued firing at it until it came to a standstill?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you then move from your position closer to the vehicle?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, we moved when I changed my magazine.

MR PRIOR: And were you firing - did you continue to fire as you were moving forward?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: I'm just trying to understand you. Then people got out of the car, three people on your version, got out of the vehicle and then moved towards the fence and got through the fence, and ran away, is that correct?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And you fired shots in their direction?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Were you aiming at anyone in particular?

MR GQOMFA: These people, the whites were apart from the African ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: You weren't shooting at the black man, you were shooting at the other two?

MR GQOMFA: I was shooting at them.

MR PRIOR: Were you shooting out of the hip, or not aiming in particular at any specific point, or just shooting in their general direction - I'm just trying to establish that - as you were moving forward? Or did you stop, take aim and fire in their direction?

MR GQOMFA: I don't understand your question.

MR PRIOR: From what I understand, as you were moving forward, you changed your magazine, people were running away from the car that had come to a standstill. Did you continue -you said the black man was apart from the two white people, and you shot in their direction. Did you simply take aim at them as they were running, or did you just fire in their general direction, without particularly aiming at anyone specifically?

MR GQOMFA: Let me put it this way. It's not that I was aiming, because I could not aim at that position, I was changing a position. I was either in a hip or shoulder position. I was shooting as I was moving.

MR PRIOR: Then you came up to the motor vehicle, is that correct?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you find the deceased, Mr Smith, that's the man who was eventually shot, was he still in the vehicle?

MR GQOMFA: No, he was outside the vehicle.

MR PRIOR: Do you know how he got out the vehicle?

MR GQOMFA: No, I don't know, because two people came out of the other side if I'm not mistaken, or it was one person, I'm not sure.

MR PRIOR: When you saw him for the first time, or when you got close to him, was he in the position "G" on photograph 10, that is where the Policeman, or the person is crouching to the right of the photograph? Or was he closer to the car when you first saw him?

If you can indicate to us and be of assistance, can you maybe mark on photograph 10 on your copy, where you found the deceased, or Mr Smit - I'm referring to him by that name, because he's the person that died - in relation to the burned out car. Are you able to do so?

MR GQOMFA: I cannot be sure of the specific place, but he was on the left side of the car.

MR PRIOR: So as far as where the people are looking in the grass, or was he a bit closer to the vehicle?

MR GQOMFA: That would be difficult, because things were happening in a split second, so I cannot be sure.

MR PRIOR: When you got to him, you said Ben, one of your Comrades, was standing with him, or near him, pointing a fire-arm at him.

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Where was Mr Letlapa Mphahlele?

MR GQOMFA: As I've already said, he was on the left side. He was a distance from them. He then came at the time when we were with this white man.

MR PRIOR: Mr Smit was sitting in a sitting position, is that right?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: He was breathing, obviously, he was alive.

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you speak to him, did you say anything to him?

MR GQOMFA: No, because I was not there to speak to him.

MR PRIOR: So, you never spoke to him. Did Ben or Mr Letlapa Mphahlele speak to him at all?

MR GQOMFA: I don't know why they would speak to him.

MR PRIOR: Mr Smit, the deceased, did he speak at all?

MR GQOMFA: I don't know whether he spoke, because I was not interested in what he was saying.

MR PRIOR: We're finding out, or trying to find out because we weren't there, was he pleading for his life, asking you not to shoot him, not to kill him?

MR GQOMFA: Even if he said something, I could not record that because I was not interested in what he was saying.

MR PRIOR: What were you interested in, if you were not interested in what he was saying?

MR GQOMFA: I was interested in what I was there to do?

MR PRIOR: And that was to kill him?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: Do you agree that in the position that you found him, he must have been injured at that stage, because he couldn't get away from you there?

MR GQOMFA: It might be so.

MR PRIOR: Did you see any injury on him, or blood on his clothing that would indicate that to you at that stage?

MR GQOMFA: No, I didn't notice any blood.

MR PRIOR: Can you say whether he had his hands up, put his hands up towards you?

MR GQOMFA: I was not interested in what this white man was doing.

MR PRIOR: Tell, us, you were there, and we need to know everything that happened there. Did he raise his hands as if to show that he had nothing with him, he was unarmed? Did he, or didn't he?

MR GQOMFA: I can say that, but I cannot remember clearly, but even if a person is going to be killed, he'd lift his hands.

MR PRIOR: You could have taken him prisoner, is that right?

MR GQOMFA: Unfortunately we were not to take any prisoners.

MR PRIOR: Who told you that, and when was that said to you?

MR GQOMFA: I'm sure that in the history of PAC you did not hear about that. Where would we keep him, because we were not there to take him. Where would we keep him?

MR PRIOR: Yes, I hear that answer, and the reason why I asked that question is that because we've seen the 15 points of attention that have been brought to our attention by APLA, that have been submitted in many of these hearings, and are you familiar as a trained soldier of APLA, with the 15 points of attention?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Can you tell us what point 14 says, out of your own, or would you like me to read it to you?

MR GQOMFA: You can read it.

MR PRIOR: It says "do no ill-treat captives or anyone in your charge". Are you familiar with that point of attention?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) analyse that, Mr Smit as he was there, he had been shot, or injured, he wasn't going anywhere. You said he may well have had his hands up, in that circumstance was he not your captive or in your charge?

MR GQOMFA: Are you referring to the 15 points of attention?

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) and you've heard me well on that.

MR GQOMFA: My answer is that you must look at who wrote the 15 points of attention, under which conditions how are we adopting this, because the 15 points of attention are referring to the people in liberated areas.

MR PRIOR: Well I don't know what captives the 15 points of attention refer to, but be that as it may, we'll leave it there.

How many times did you shoot Mr Smit with your R5 rifle while he was sitting in front of you?

MR GQOMFA: I could not count because the firearm was in rapid, so I could not count.

MR PRIOR: And then after you had shot him, did he fall down, was he laying on the ground?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Mr Letlapa Mphahlele then came with the .38 special revolver, is that right?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) his head?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: In the back of the neck or the front of the head?

MR GQOMFA: It was in the head.

MR PRIOR: At very close rang?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, it was in a close range, because this white man was sitting here and while I was shooting him he was sitting right here.

MR PRIOR: I want to establish, after you had shot him, did he fall over, or was he still sitting when Mr Letlapa Mphahlele shot him in the head?

MR GQOMFA: He fell.

MR PRIOR: Was he still alive at that stage, or was he dead, or was he moving, or what? What was the position?

MR GQOMFA: I'm not sure that he would have been alive at that time.

MR PRIOR: Do you know why Mr Letlapa Mphahlele took his revolver and shot him in the head at that time, do you know why? Did you know why he did that?

MR GQOMFA: No, I don't know the reason.

MR PRIOR: When you were satisfied that he was dead, you then burned out the vehicle, is that right?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, that's right.

CHAIRPERSON: You didn't want to shoot him, did you?

MR GQOMFA: How, Mr Chairperson?

CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking you, is it true that you didn't want to shoot him, or did you want to shoot him?

MR GQOMFA: I can't say I did not want to shoot him, because I've already shot at the others.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm reading from your own application for amnesty, do you remember what you said there?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 11, this is a traumatic part to myself -

Is that true so far?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: You say here, "I regret to say that I shot the person", did you regret it?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, as I've already said that if you kill a person, you do have feeling, but you have killed a person.

CHAIRPERSON: Would you say that you're being a pacifist and this act, you had to do it, as you had no alternative as the situation prevailed at that time. If you did not, you hope anything would have been possible.

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But you are making the case there that you were unwilling to do what you did, but you were ordered to do so.

MR GQOMFA: That is your own interpretation, but I don't think I was sending that message.

MR PRIOR: Well, what did you try and tell us when you wrote those words in this application? What were you trying to say to us?

MR GQOMFA: Everybody if you kill a person you do have that feeling that you have killed a person. And firstly the thing that we have killed people, we were not born as killers, but the oppressors forced us to do these acts and all of us, the Africans, we are a very peaceful nation. But these people forced us and we ended up being killers. When I'm saying that the consequence, I'm referring to the fact that this thing will torment me for the rest of my life, because I would have betrayed my conscience and my protocol confession.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. When the vehicle went past you did you notice that there was a black man, black person, in the rear of the vehicle in the passenger, rear seat passenger?

MR GQOMFA: No, I did not notice.

MR PRIOR: You noticed that when he alighted from the vehicle and was running away?

MR GQOMFA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You never shot at him?

MR GQOMFA: No.

MR PRIOR: We know now that Mr Smit worked at Frasers at that time, it now became Score Furnishers, but he was the manager of the furniture store in Sterkspruit and the other two gentlemen were also working there, Mr Franzsen and Mr Maartens. Mr Franzsen also worked at the furniture's and Mr Ben Maliehe was also working at the furniture's. You never knew that?

MR GQOMFA: No.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, just before that, before that incident when you shot at the Corolla 16 valve, I seem to recall you saying there were other vehicles that had - one vehicle or more vehicles had gone past before the shooting had occurred. Is that correct?

MR GQOMFA: I think there were cars, if I remember well.

MR PRIOR: Do you know why these cars weren't attacked or shot at?

MR GQOMFA: No I don't know.

MR PRIOR: And can you help us, were these cars driven by white people or black people, or can't you say?

MR GQOMFA: What I'm trying to say it that there was not much hope to look at the cars or who was driving the car.

MR PRIOR: You said that you were staying at Jozannas Hoek is that right - at the time of this operation?

MR GQOMFA: Jozannas Neck.

MR PRIOR: In who's house were you staying at?

MR GQOMFA: I was staying alone, there was no one else. I was doing everything for myself.

MR PRIOR: Where there no other members of APLA at that house?

MR GQOMFA: No.

MR PRIOR: And Ben, where was he staying at that time?

MR GQOMFA: I don't know were they were staying, because I was placed in that area. I don't know were they were staying.

MR PRIOR: Can I just ask you this question? Did you ever go to Johannas Hoek - Jozannas Hoek, sorry, during that period, that is March of '92?

MR GQOMFA: I did not go to Jozannas Hoek. My instruction was that, when I was going out, I was going out following the instructions.

MR PRIOR: So, you've said to us that you were staying alone at this house, at Jozannas Neck, but you still haven't answered the question about whose house it was. Whose house was it that you were staying in - whose woozy or kraal or whatever?

MR GQOMFA: I said that I was placed in that house, there was no one there when I got there. It was one house.

MR PRIOR: So, you don't know who owned that house?

MR GQOMFA: No, I don't know the owner. I was not interested in knowing the owner of the house.

MR PRIOR: Who pointed out that place for you to stay at?

MR GQOMFA: Comrade Mphahlele.

MR PRIOR: That was the only operation you carried out in that area, Sterkspruit-Zastron area?

MR GQOMFA: Yes, that was the only operation, except for the farm.

MR PRIOR: I just want to - did you have any knowledge at that time that there was a unit in Jozannas Hoek? We heard evidence last week and earlier on that Martin Phila Dolo had a unit in Jozannas Hoek. Were you aware that close by to you there was a APLA unit?

MR GQOMFA: This is like this, I did not know that, but I knew that there were Africans around that area.

MR PRIOR: You were just deployed, it would seem to me from your evidence, for this one operation, and you were given the R5 rifle. Were you particularly expert with that weapon?

MR GQOMFA: As I've already said one African, his rule was to drive. He was not trained to use a weapon. The other Comrade was internally trained. I was given an R5 because I was familiar with it, because I was coming from outside.

MR PRIOR: I just want to know I maybe used the wrong word "expert", but were you fairly competent at using that R5 rifle? I mean were you able to shoot accurately, was that - I mean there must have been a reason why Mr Letlapa gave you the R5, and not anyone else.

MR GQOMFA: The reason is what I've already told you, that one Comrade was internally trained. As I was familiar, because I was coming from outside, maybe that was the reason for them to give me this weapon because it was a powerful weapon.

MR PRIOR: Can you tell us what your code-name was, or your chimirenga name was?

Sorry, we didn't hear the interpretation. Please repeat what your chimirenga name was.

MR GQOMFA: Mtami.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Did you have any other code-name, Mr Gqomfa?

MR GQOMFA: There were a lot of names, some would call me Bruce, Zuko.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) Bruce and Zuko, those were other ones you mentioned. What else, any others?

MR GQOMFA: That's all.

MR PRIOR: I want to put to you finally as a proposition, that you had successfully launched this attack, this operation. You had managed to shoot up the vehicle, could have still burned the vehicle, you had injured Mr Smit. I want to suggest to you that you could have made the same political statement by leaving him alive that by killing him, because he could have conveyed the message to those authorities, to the people that - the political party to which he belonged. Do you agree with that, he could have given a more powerful message to them having survived this attack than being killed, as you killed him? In other words, I'm suggesting to you that you had an alternative, you had an option open to you, and it wasn't necessary to kill this person to achieve your political objective.

MR GQOMFA: Would you like me to answer?

MR PRIOR: Do you agree with that, or don't you agree? You can say yes or no, I don't need a long discussion about whatever. Do you agree with that, or don't you agree?

MR GQOMFA: I don't agree with that.

MR PRIOR: I've no further questions, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Is that the applicant's case?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, as I've indicated to you, I only have one witness to call, that's Mr Franzsen.

CHAIRPERSON: I think that I should make it clear that on each occasion when I have said today, "is that the applicant's case" and the applicant's attorney has agreed, it is subject to the reservation that if the further information becomes available, he will be entitled to re-open this case.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I likewise indicate that this matter also falls within the same areas as the broader allegation which has been investigated, and should anything be forthcoming, it would be presented.

CHAIRPERSON: It will be dealt with in the same way. It does appear that although we had what was treated as separate matters last week, it may well be that the same principle is involved in all of them.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I call Mr Franzsen. Would he come forward please. Mr Andrew Lategan Franzsen.

MR FRANZSEN: (Duly sworn in)

MR PRIOR: Mr Franzsen is it correct that in March of 1992 you were employed at Frasers Furnitures in Sterkspruit and you were employed as a Credit Manager?

MR FRANZSEN: That is correct, yes.

MR PRIOR: On the 18th of March 1992 it is common cause that whilst you were driving in a motor vehicle, or were you a passenger, in a motor vehicle being driven by, is it Mr Maarten?

MR FRANZSEN: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: Together with Mr Fanie Smit, the deceased, and one Ben Maliehe. There was - your vehicle was shot at near the Mayaphuti crossing, that's about 30 kilometres from Zastron?

MR FRANZSEN: That's correct, yes.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct, as a result of that incident you made a statement to the Police at Zastron on the 18th of March 1992?

MR FRANZSEN: That's also true.

MR PRIOR: That statement was made in Afrikaans, is that correct?

MR FRANZSEN: That's correct, yes.

MR PRIOR: And signed by yourself?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You read the statement again this morning, is that correct?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, that's 100% correct yes.

MR PRIOR: And do you confirm the contents of that affidavit?

MR FRANZSEN: I confirm the contents, yes.

MR PRIOR: And you adhere to the contents of that affidavit?

MR FRANZSEN: That's correct, yes.

MR PRIOR: You've now listened to the application of Mr Gqomfa in this matter, you followed the evidence that he has given. Is there anything that you wish to say, or any remarks or comments you wish to add to, or to say in respect of what he has told this Committee, regarding the incident that has ...(intervention)

MR FRANZSEN: Well, what I can say is, if we also had the same weapons to defend ourselves, then I think it should have been a different ball-game, but that was not the case at that time, and I can only say we were very shocked and devastated by what had happened on that specific day.

MR PRIOR: Were you armed at all on that day?

MR FRANZSEN: Not at all. We were not allowed to take weapons into Sterkspruit, and we were not allowed to, as were the Company policies, to take weapons into the stores.

MR PRIOR: Can you say whether this was known generally in the area, or not?

MR FRANZSEN: It was not known in the area, no, because of special permits that you were supposed to have from the Sterkspruit Government.

MR PRIOR: So, in other words, if you had carried a firearm, you'd have to get a special permit at that time from the Transkei Government?

MR FRANZSEN: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: And the Police at that time?

MR FRANZSEN: That's correct. Afterwards we applied for those after this incident happened, but we never knew about it before the time.

MR PRIOR: As far as the shooting is concerned, can you maybe just take us through that incident, as best you can, from the time that you were aware that you were being shot at?

MR FRANZSEN: Okay. Okay, right, what happened was that we were on our way to Sterkspruit. We were approaching this junction where, Mayaphuti junction, and then we - from the position I was sitting, I saw the two people at the Mayaphuti junction, and as we went past, I just heard the gunshots and I ducked down below - onto the seat. And then from - I could hear there was something wrong with the vehicle ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Just stop there. You were sitting in the rear of the vehicle?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, behind the driver, yes.

MR PRIOR: And Mr Ben Maliehe was sitting?

MR FRANZSEN: Next to me, on the left-hand side.

MR PRIOR: On the left-hand side, and where did the shooting come from, the left or the right of the vehicle?

MR FRANZSEN: From the right-hand side.

MR PRIOR: Please continue.

MR FRANZSEN: Okay. And then from there we were - I just heard they said that we went through a Police blockade.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, who said that?

MR FRANZSEN: That was the driver, Mr Maarten. And then we - as I said, well, we'll have to keep on. He said to us that he can't, he can't go further, the car's engine has been shot, and we pulled over behind the bakkie that was parked about 400 metres from the junction, on the left-hand side of the road.

MR PRIOR: Just stop there, I want to show you a photograph. Mr Chairman, I refer to bundle "B", photograph 37. Can you say whether that was the vehicle, or a similar-looking vehicle?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, that was the vehicle, but I can't remember the railings on the back of the bakkie.

MR PRIOR: So it was a bakkie type?

MR FRANZSEN: It was a bakkie, and it was a CAC registration number. I couldn't remember the whole of the registration number, but it was a CAC.

MR PRIOR: In paragraph 4 of your affidavit to the Police which appears at page 26 of bundle "A", you said that you fell flat on the seat. Mr Marten reduced speed. You said something that you thought it was a Police roadblock. You said because you saw one black man in a Police uniform, it was like a camouflage type uniform.

MR LAX: It's field dress, not camouflage.

MR PRIOR: I beg your pardon "velddrag". Can you maybe just expand on that?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, we were - as we went past we saw that one of the people were dressed in the field dress of the SA Police.

MR PRIOR: SA Police, or?

MR FRANZSEN: SA Police, yes. It was the same - similar type of dress that they were using. That was to, as we were thinking afterwards, it was to confuse us, that ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Did Mr Maarten actually slow down?

MR FRANZSEN: He slowed down, yes. He actually left some marks on the road, some skidmarks as he hit the brakes?

MR PRIOR: And then?

MR FRANZSEN: And then we just moved up to the - where the car went slower, and we moved off the road on the right-hand side, and then I was looking to the back to see what was going on, and I saw the two people coming - running towards the vehicle from the bottom side, from the junction.

MR PRIOR: Can you say whether anymore shooting occurred whilst these two people were running towards you?

MR FRANZSEN: There were more shooting, yes, as they were running towards the vehicle. As I was looking in front of me, I saw the one black man in front of the car, standing right in the front of the - at the bonnet of our vehicle, pointing a 9mm pistol at us, and at that junction I was - I ducked again onto the seat when I heard the shot went off, and that is when Mr Maarten was shot through the finger. And then he said we had better run, we must get out and we must run away. So from there he went out of the car, went around the vehicle, I didn't know he was shot at that point, and then I followed him, left the door open to keep the door between me and the guy with the pistol, so I went on my - on my hands and feet, I went around the vehicle to keep the vehicle between me and the guy that was shooting, and I went for the fence and went over the fence and then we just ran off into the field. As the shots were firing, I was just rolling and going off like we were trained in the Army.

MR PRIOR: To avoid being shot?

MR FRANZSEN: To avoid being shot.

MR PRIOR: Do you know what happened to Mr Maliehe?

MR FRANZSEN: Afterwards, when we - I just saw him behind me, but afterwards we, in the conversation he said he thought, okay the same thing is going to happen to him, he will also have to flee for his life, and then he followed exactly the same as what I did, he did the same thing.

MR PRIOR: So, in other words, were you aware of him following you in the same direction as you were running away from the scene?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, he went in the same direction.

MR PRIOR: But, was he behind you, or ...(intervention)

MR FRANZSEN: He was behind me, yes.

MR PRIOR: When you got away from the scene, did the shooting stop, that was the shooting in your direction?

MR FRANZSEN: They were shooting until we reached the second fence and we went over the fence, then the ground was going down, so they couldn't see us anymore, and then the shooting stopped.

MR PRIOR: And did you see Mr Maarten at that stage had an injury?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, that was just as we got over the second fence, he was talking to me. He said to me "I've been shot", and I just said to him "keep on going".

MR PRIOR: Did you notice his injury, can you just tell us?

MR FRANZSEN: I could see his injury at the back and then as he turned around, I could see it was in the front as well, just below the belt it came out, and he had blood on his shirt.

MR PRIOR: So you noticed his injury from his back, and had exited just under his belt in the front?

MR FRANZSEN: In the front, yes.

MR PRIOR: And you say his finger had been shot?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, his finger was shot.

MR PRIOR: Was it shot off, was it just cut, or what?

MR FRANZSEN: No, just took off the nervous system and the fingernail from the pinkie and the ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: You indicate the left hand.

MR FRANZSEN: The left hand, yes.

MR PRIOR: So you say his pinkie - was the top of his pinkie taken off?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, the nail part.

MR PRIOR: The nail and part of his ring finger?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, that's correct.

MR PRIOR: Did - I understand that Mr Maarten, that's Mr Deon Maarten, he subsequently died in a motor accident, can you confirm that?

MR FRANZSEN: That is correct, yes.

MR PRIOR: Did you know him?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, I knew him well.

MR PRIOR: How long after this incident did he die?

MR FRANZSEN: That was about three years after the incident.

MR PRIOR: I see, just one last aspect on Mr Maarten, did he go - did he receive medical treatment for his injury?

MR FRANZSEN: Lots of times he was in and out of the hospital having operations on his left hand, and eventually they put off the ring finger.

MR PRIOR: Did they amputate his finger?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, amputated it.

MR PRIOR: Did you know if Mr Maliehe was injured in any way?

MR FRANZSEN: No, he was uninjured as I was uninjured.

MR PRIOR: So you and he were uninjured?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, both of us.

MR PRIOR: Alright, once the shooting had stopped were you able to - did you hear anything further, or were you able to see anything from your position as to what happened to Mr Smit?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, as we were carrying on moving away from the scene we went below the dam that was just to the, also to the left of the road and we heard a final shooting going on, and then the car burning. Then we saw the smoke in the window just coming out in the sky.

MR PRIOR: Were you able to reach help at that stage, did you get to a farmhouse or a farm?

MR FRANZSEN: No, we were not close to any farm, we were moving in the field and going up to where we could meet the road again. I was actually - we were thinking of going to the farmhouse there, but I said it was too close to the shooting and maybe there's some more members of whoever shot at us - maybe took over the farm and they were hiding there as well waiting for their buddies to come along.

MR PRIOR: Alright, eventually I take it, you got help and assistance and so forth.

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, the Police came by and they picked up there.

MR PRIOR: Are you unable then, as I understand your evidence, to say what precisely happened to Mr Smit?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, we actually thought maybe he was thinking for himself to spread the fire, then he went maybe another way. That's what we were thinking at some time till we got back to the scene.

MR PRIOR: Alright, did you go back to the scene?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, the Police took us back to the scene and we were waiting there for the ambulance to arrive.

MR PRIOR: And did you see Mr Smit there?

MR FRANZSEN: I could see him lying there, I was - I lost my watch and everything and I was looking for it, so I saw him lying on the grass.

MR PRIOR: I just - just for completeness sake, I'll show you photograph 10 of bundle "B". Point "G" on photograph 10, is that more or less the position you found Mr Smit?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And when you had moved out of the vehicle towards the fence, did you move more or less in that direction?

MR FRANZSEN: More to the corner of where the fence made - had a corner where ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: To the left or right of the photograph?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, if you look at photograph - there towards the guy sitting on the right-hand side.

MR PRIOR: So you moved from the back of the vehicle behind the person crouching at point "G"?

MR FRANZSEN: That's right.

MR PRIOR: And Mr Smit, was he there at that stage, or not?

MR FRANZSEN: No, I've got no idea where he was stage ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Or how he got there?

MR FRANZSEN: No.

MR PRIOR: Thank you. There's just one last aspect, Mr Franzsen, how long had you been working in Sterkspruit for Frasers?

MR FRANZSEN: Before or after?

MR PRIOR: Before this incident.

MR PRIOR: Before the incident, okay, I started there on the 20th of January '92.

MR PRIOR: So you had only been there two months, roughly?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And Mr Smit, do you know how long he had been Manager at Sterkspruit - at the Frasers Furnishers?

MR FRANZSEN: I think also same as what - I think December '91.

MR PRIOR: Where you aware at that time of any problems regarding your safety or the people working in Sterkspruit safety, particularly the white people?

MR FRANZSEN: No, we had no idea what's going to happen there, because everybody at the shop were very friendly and nobody had indicated anything that there is danger, or has pointed out anything out to us there, nothing.

MR PRIOR: Just generally, a general question, how was the relationship between Frasers - your staff at Frasers and the community there - I want to know was Frasers a well supported business, or was it - did it have difficulties in selling its stock, or what is the position?

MR FRANZSEN: No, we had no difficulty. It was a very friendly staff, we were very helpful. Our aim was to train these people to uplift them and uplift the standard of these people - to eventually get them into the Management position, because that was the aim of the whole Rusfurn group at that point in time, was to get the people trained.

MR PRIOR: Are you able to - sorry, so you did have black personnel at that time?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, it's only the three white Management that was there to run the show.

MR PRIOR: And you say Rusfurn at that stage - is that the controlling company?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, that was the controlling company.

MR PRIOR: And their policy was to uplift the black people, particularly in that area, in order for them to take over eventually and run the shop themselves?

MR FRANZSEN: That's correct, yes.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Prior, maybe just one important point you may have forgotten to ask him about this. What is you reaction to what you have heard from the applicant today?

MR FRANZSEN: Sorry, I can't hear you that well.

ADV SANDI: Did you hear Mr Gqomfa, the applicant, what he had to say today about this matter?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, I did hear what he said.

ADV SANDI: Do you have any reaction that you would like to express in regard to what he said today?

MR FRANZSEN: No, I've got no knowledge of his side of the story, I just heard what he was saying today, and my opinion was that I think he had also a chance in life to say yes or no, he wants to do this or he wants to do that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Just one question, but just before I - just for clarity - just before I ask that, I would like to say to you that accept my sympathy for what you went through during that day, the 18th of March 1992, but just a few - you said to the Committee that if you had similar weapons it would have been a different ball-game. Can you elaborate on that?

MR FRANZSEN: Okay, to elaborate on that, I mean, if you take war, the two sides are fighting and they've got equal weapons or some is maybe more sophisticated than the other one, but at least the ones who are attacked has also got a chance to the attacker, and I'm saying, I mean, if we also had the same kind of weapons then we could have - it should have been something different.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, maybe just to add to that, may I say for instance different ...(indistinct) any other person possibly it would have not been a different ball-game if, even if he had weapons or because they don't know anything about weapons. Are you trying to tell the Committee that you have a knowledge of using a firearm, or you were trained in using firearms?

MR FRANZSEN: Well I was trained during 1978 to 1980, I was trained in the Army. That was fourteen years before the incident, so it was a long time ago, but it's something you never forget.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: As everybody else asked questions, I want to ask some general questions about Sterkspruit. How big is it, or how big was it then?

MR FRANZSEN: It's the same size, Mr Chairman. It's the same size as it is now at this point, we've got a few furniture shops there, and a few supermarkets, a hotel, grocery stores and so on. It's quite a big community.

CHAIRPERSON: And who owns those businesses now?

MR FRANZSEN: It's still owned by your company, it still owns businesses there, two shops.

CHAIRPERSON: And are there still white people working there?

MR FRANZSEN: We've got still a white Manager, still working there, and as the other furniture shop as well, they've got also white Managers, and then furniture shops from other companies, they've also got still white Managers there.

CHAIRPERSON: And I notice that in those days, or rather when you came to make your affidavit, you were living in Zastron.

MR FRANZSEN: That's correct yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And Deon Maarten was living at Wepener.

MR FRANZSEN: That is also correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you drive to and from work everyday?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes, he came from Wepener and picked me up in the mornings, and then Fanie Smit as well, and we go thought to Sterkspruit where we do our daily job.

CHAIRPERSON: And were there other people doing to same thing?

MR FRANZSEN: Other people were doing exactly the same thing, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: So you were coming in early in the morning, a lot of white people worked at Sterkspruit, drove into Sterkspruit early in the morning?

MR FRANZSEN: That is correct, yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And anybody who wanted to make enquiry or ...(indistinct) would have found this out?

MR FRANZSEN: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And I presume your cars - your vehicles would have also been recognisable?

MR FRANZSEN: That's correct.

CHAIRPERSON: If they were used - there were also used day after day.

MR FRANZSEN: The very same vehicles, yes, I mean, they know that.

CHAIRPERSON: Thanks.

MR FRANZSEN: Okay.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's all for today, and all for this session.

CHAIRPERSON: Is this matter also going to be adjourned now to a date to be arranged and a venue to be arranged, conditional upon receiving the representation which the PAC have undertaken to make and any further which we may obtain of the people - implicated parties. I would like to stress that we would be extremely grateful to the implicated parties if they are able to deal with the question of the positions they held and the instructions they gave to the applicants and other young people who might have been convicted of offences which they were - which they committed what they believed to be in the interests of the Party and the Country, and if that is the position, we would like to clarify that as soon as possible, so from that point of view we would like the implicated parties who have been mentioned to realise just how important their contribution can be towards ensuring that the process is carried out as quickly as possible. Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we now adjourn this sitting.

Sorry, before we leave, could I on behalf of the members of the Committee thank Solly for what he's done, the translators for what they have done, the attorneys who have appeared before us, and all those in Aliwal-North itself who have done so much to make the hearings proceed smoothly, and in that we obliged to the Police Force for having made their facilities available for us and to the Correctional Services for having ensured that the applicants are here when needed, that their attorneys have had a chance to consult with them in matters of that nature. We are very conscious of all that all of you have done, thank you.