TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION COMMISSION 

AMNESTY HEARINGS

HELD AT: ALIWAL NORTH

NAME: PHILA MARTIN DOLO

CASE NO: 3485/96

DAY: 1

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MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, we commence with the applications of Phila Martin Dolo, application 3485/96 and Thabiso James Makoala - 6026/97. Today being the 20th of April 1998.

Mr Chairman, there were delays, the Committee was aware of those delays. I don't know if you want anything placed on record. There seemed to be a series of problems that we encountered this morning.

Firstly relating to the attendance of Mr Mokoala, who came very late in the morning, due to a confusion between the jail authorities and the South African Police, and also the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He was as I think you've told us outside the hearing, sent to the wrong place and they had to go and fetch him and bring him back here.

MR PRIOR: That is correct, Mr Chairman. Unbeknown to the TRC, we were dealing with it on the basis that he was a sentenced prisoner and yet he was not. He was awaiting trial, and there was, therein lay the confusion, Mr Chairman.

But, however, we're in the position to commence. All the interested parties have been notified. Possibly just to place myself on record. Advocate P C Prior, Evidence Leader for the Amnesty Committee. Both applicants are represented.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I confirm that I represent Phila Martin Dolo in this matter, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Your name please.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Mbandazayo, representing Phila Martin Dolo. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you, Mr Chairman. My name is Mthembu. I represent Thabiso James Makoala.

CHAIRPERSON: The Committee consists of myself, Mr Sibanyoni, Mr Sandi and Mr Lax.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I indicate that there were several victims. All were notified. Those, Mr Tsemane, the deceased of the matter has his family who are present. Mr Schroeder, his wife, or his widow, was notified timeously on the 27th of March. She's not present, however I understood that her, the deceased's brother or brother-in-law would be attending. I have not yet seen them Mr Chairman, but contact was made with the Amnesty Committee and that family. Mr Brummer, that is Mrs Brummer's husband, will not be attending. He has indicated and communicated that to the Committee. The implicated persons, Mr Leemisa has been notified. I understand that there is no representation by him today and the other implicated person, Mr Modiboloa is some confusion or some doubt as to whether he is still alive at this time. He was unable to be traced Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, having said that, the matter is ready to proceed.

CHAIRPERSON: Who is there senior officer?

MR LAX: Perhaps I could help there. My recollection was that they received their instructions via Mphahlele.

CHAIRPERSON: That is my recollection. Has he been informed?

MR PRIOR: Chairman, according to Dolo's application he says he was carrying out orders from APLA and Comrade Sibelo Palma had given him orders in Harare. So as far as his application strict is concerned there was no, I speak under correction, and for that reason there is no Commander who is notified. Let me just check the other one.

MR LAX: If I could be of assistance here, if you look at paragraph 5 on page 2 of Mr Dolo's affidavit he makes it clear that he was deployed in that area by Lethlapha Mphahlele on the instructions of Sibelo Palma. In essence page 2 of the new bundle you have given us, sorry, I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman, that was only received this morning. Yes, no, we understand that, but obviously we need to, I mean Mr Mbandazayo you can correct me if I am wrong, but... (intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct Mr Chairman, I wanted to just to clarify that point Mr Chairman. The only thing its not a question of order ... (indistinct) is that he was deployed in that area by Comrade Lethlapha Mphahlele.

MR PRIOR: Yes. But in any event you're in touch with Mr Mphahlele and we're hoping to hear from you tomorrow in that regard. You can just draw this one to his attention as well.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well page 10 of the application by Makoala, paragraph 11(b) he said the orders were issued by L Mtashlela. He showed he is clearly an implicated person. Will you draw his attention to it.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman may the initial bundle be marked "A", where the index runs 1 - 9 and the supplementary bundle "B"?

CHAIRPERSON: Right, that will be done.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I don't know if it's necessary to briefly summarise the matter before we commence?

CHAIRPERSON: I think it may be as the first deposition you will hear will be that of the applicant, and it might be better if there is at least agreement as to the order in which events happened and how they happened.

MR PRIOR: May I then refer to page 41 of the supplementary bundle. It sets out the summary, Mr Chairman, of the events that occurred on the 19th of November 1992 on the Sterkspruit Lady Grey Road. That incident relates to the deaths of three people; Mr Peter Schroeder, Mrs Shirley Brummer and Mr Tsemane on that day where their vehicles were attacked. Shots were fired and they sustained fatal injuries. There was also an attempted murder of Mr Douglas Selly, who drove past. May I just place on record Mr Selly lives permanently in England for the last three and a half years, Mr Chairman, I understand that he hasn't been informed of the matter, and at the same time in an Isuzu bakkie, two ladies, Mrs Dlephu and Mrs Booysen, teachers, who also came under attack on that same day after the shooting of the three earlier people that I mentioned. And their vehicle was in fact taken by the applicants and their Comrades. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Sorry Mr Prior there were three ladies in that vehicle, the third one being Mrs Molungwana.

MR PRIOR: Yes, I noticed that.

CHAIRPERSON: There were four according to Mrs Booysen. In Page 11 of bundle "B" she said:

MR PRIOR: Quite correct Mr Chairman, thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you perhaps tell us Mr Prior, I have been endeavouring to work out what must have happened. It might clarify things a little if we are told, presumable evidence will be lead. We have been given such graphs in the bundle "B" and we have been given a key which merely says "pointed out by Warrant Officer Gomada and Sergeant Adonis." What were these points? In photograph 3 what are they pointing out? In photograph 4 what are they pointing out?

MR PRIOR: Yes, I'll able to clarify that. My understanding is that I think photograph 3 is where the body of Mr Schroeder was lying and 4 was were the bakkie left the road, but that is subject to confirmation, Mr Chairman, and I will certainly be leading evidence. But that seems to be the case.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, 4 was a place well away from the road, photograph 4, it may be where the bakkie came to rest, not where it left the road.

MR PRIOR: Came to rest Mr Chairman, yes. And those correspond with the places we see, or where photographs 23, photographs on 23 and 24, Mr Chairman. Sorry after the second bundle, Mr Chairman, of "B".

CHAIRPERSON: Right. Perhaps one last point to make the reference easier. We have the photograph no 1 on page 19, 17 of the new bundle, bundle "B". Does that show the road leading to Sterkspruit at the top of the photograph?

MR PRIOR: That's right Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: And Lady Grey at the bottom?

MR PRIOR: That's correct Mr Chairman. And one can see the bridge almost in the middle, slightly less than the middle of the page from the top with a wear, there's a wear apparently on the right hand side, Mr Chairman, and that is the place depicted on page 20 onwards. And that's where the bakkie apparently came to rest in that area.

CHAIRPERSON: Would, that would be on the left hand side of the road going towards Sterkspruit?

MR PRIOR: No, the right hand side of the road.

CHAIRPERSON: Where is the wear Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Chairperson, you can see it quite clearly as there is a solid line to the right of the bridge on that photograph.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the weir?

MR PRIOR: Yes. Mr Chairman if one looks at page 20 of the new bundle, those bundled "B", the second photograph marked 4(a), one has a better picture of what the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that what one sees in paragraph 17.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman. There seems to be quite a drop from that position. The weir one sees on the right hand side of the photograph at page 20.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Mbandazayo are you ready to start?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman, we are ready to start, Mr Chairman. May the applicant, Phila Martin Dolo be sworn in?

MR SIBANYONI: Okay, just to start off with one practical point, channel 2 will be English and channel 3 will be Xhosa. So can you assist Mr Mbandazayo to make sure that he is on channel 3. Channel 4 will be Sesotho. I understand Mr Mbandazayo, your client is Xhosa speaking, am I correct?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, that is correct. And he's on channel 3, he is already on channel 3, Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: We will now swear him in.

PHILA MARTIN DOLO: (Duly sworn in)

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dolo, do you confirm that this affidavit which is before the Committee has been made by you and you abide by its contents?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, as usual, Mr Chairman, I want, I'll take you to certain paragraphs of his affidavits for the explanation of the Committee and I'll immediately jump page 1 of the affidavit and go to page 2 which is paragraph 5, Mr Chairman

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you for the benefit of the Committee explain what do you mean when you say that you were "Regional Commander" and also that "you were deployed in that area on the instruction of Lethlapha Mphahlele on the instruction of Sibelo Palma"?

MR DOLO: Firstly I will start with where I was stationed at Sterkspruit and with its surrounding areas of Zastron and Lady Grey that area regarded as a region when we divide South Africa. So, all that area was under my command and second we come to the question of Lethlapha Mphahlele and Sibelo Palma. The time I was entering the country of which I was once in Zimbabwe I met there Comrade Sibelo Palma who gave me instructions to get inside the country and engage Settler's Colonies in continuing for the liberation of our people. And when I arrived inside the country, I met Comrade Lethlapha Mphahlele who instructed me that I have to be stationed at this stated area there of Sterkspruit of which I would be the commander of that area.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman I am proceeding to paragraph 6

Now I have read this paragraph I would like you first to start with the first sentence and tell the Committee how did you arrive at the target? How did you identify the target? Can you explain to the Committee?

MR DOLO: As the Commander or the Regional Commander of that area, there will be soldiers who are under my command. They will be engaged in surveillance work and recognisance work and all that will be brought under my command. Then I will decide out of that information or out of that data in what target or which target we have to attack. Then whatever operation that took place in that area it was then under my command. I was the one therefore that we targeting the targets and identifying targets which ones have to be attacked.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, "the armaments used in the operation was organised by myself". Can you explain that to the Committee? How did you organise the weapons which were used?

MR DOLO: When I arrived in that area of Sterkspruit there were arms that I found that they were there already. They were handed over in my command. In that way I was the one therefore in charge of those arms. And further if there has to be other arms that has to be transported in our area and they will needing my identification and my approval. I will briefly state it that way.

MR LAX: Sorry, who did you take over from?

MR DOLO: Sorry, repeat the question?

MR LAX: Who did you take over from when these arms were handed over to you when you took over command? Who handed them to you and who did you take over from?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry, Mr Chairman just I want because we speaking in English I think the best way is to put it ...(intervention)

MR LAX: On channel 2.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Channel 2.

MR LAX: Sorry just to repeat the questions. There are really two or three different questions in one. So let me do them separately. Who did you take over command from in that area? Who was the commander before you in other words?

MR DOLO: Before I arrived?

MR LAX: Yes.

MR DOLO: It was another guy by the name of, I think it was his Sotho name, by the name of Phila.

MR LAX: Phila?

MR DOLO: Aha.

MR LAX: I know you use chimarengan names, but do you know Phila's proper name?

MR DOLO: I know him as Phila.

MR LAX: No other chimarengan name? No other code name?

MR DOLO: I take it that would be his chimarenga.

MR LAX: And who handed over the arms to you?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Sorry Mr Chairman, I just want to, it seems as if you don't get each other. I'm sure there's a problem with his microphone.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, but he is supposed to be on channel 2 there. If he addressing the Committee in English. Is he on channel 2? What does it say there on this thing? Does it show a 2 like this?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, it's okay now, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Just for your benefit on the right hand side of this unit is a volume control. If you push it downwards it will increase the volume. So, just to repeat in case you didn't year me, you only knew Phila's chimarengan name, you didn't know any other name of his?

MR DOLO: No I didn't know any other name.

MR LAX: He didn't use any other chimarengan names?

MR DOLO: There was also another name.

MR LAX: Yes, what was that?

MR DOLO: Sipawa.

MR LAX: Now, you took over from him as you said. Who handed over the arms to you?

MR DOLO: It was him.

MR LAX: And what arms did he hand over to you?

MR DOLO: I have R4 rifles.

MR LAX: How many?

MR DOLO: Two.

MR LAX: Carry on.

MR DOLO: Pistols.

MR LAX: How many?

MR DOLO: I don't recall.

MR LAX: What sort of calibre?

MR DOLO: 9mm and a revolver and grenades.

MR LAX: How many grenades?

MR DOLO: I don't know how many grenades.

MR LAX: What sort of grenades?

MR DOLO: M24.

MR LAX: Any other firearms?

MR DOLO: I don't recall.

MR LAX: Ammunition?

MR DOLO: There was ammunition for all these weapons I have mentioned.

MR LAX: Roughly how much per weapon or are you unable to say?

MR DOLO: I would say for the rifle was a lot, but for the pistol we were short of ammunition for the pistols.

MR LAX: What was the calibre of the revolvers?

MR DOLO: It was an R4, which is ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, the revolvers.

MR DOLO: Oh, the revolver. 38 Special.

MR LAX: Somewhere in these papers and it might not necessarily be in yours, I might be confused, mention is made of a shotgun. Did anyone have a shotgun?

MR DOLO: No, it was a handgun, not a shotgun.

MR LAX: Okay.

MR DOLO: There was a stand, maybe that's why the word shotgun was used, but a stand I think qualify with the submachine pistol or submachine guns.

MR LAX: When you say "a stand" you are referring to some sort of a tripod?

MR DOLO: No, it would be a stand.

MR LAX: Sorry.

MR DOLO: Stand, submachine gun.

MR LAX: Okay, I'm with you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You may proceed, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Last question, where did Phila go to after he left this area?

MR DOLO: I went to Lesotho.

MR LAX: You went to Lesotho?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Carry on Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman now I'll go to the last sentence of paragraph 6.

CHAIRPERSON: Before you do that, can I ask a question. Who was the director of operations you reported directly to?

MR DOLO: It was, we normally know him as Happy. Then he is known as Lethlapha Mphahlele.

MR MBANDAZAYO: May I proceed, Mr Chairman? Thank you Mr Chairman.

Can you explain that to the Committee?

MR DOLO: The area was used for training cadres, cadres, people who came for training, maybe from Transkei at Umtata or around other areas of Transkei. Some were sent to my area for training, so I will be responsible for that. I will take part as an instructor, I also acted as an instructor. I would conduct classes, military classes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you explain what you do with those cadres after you have trained them to the Committee? Can you explain that?

MR DOLO: Some I will be imported them in some other operations and others I won't be involved with them. They will be sent to, I will send them maybe to Transkei where they will be redeployed into other areas.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Paragraph 7, Mr Chairman

Mr Chairman, for the purposes of the Committee Kleintjie is Thabiso James Makoala, the other applicant in this matter.

At the ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: While you are supplying names, can you supply names for these other people?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I am supplying those I can, I will ask to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Could you ask him if he can?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I have read that paragraph you have heard Mr Chairman. Can you tell us what was the real name, do you know the real name of Roger armed, who was armed with .38 Special and Scorpion armed with 9mm short?

MR DOLO: I don't know even of, I started to know it when I met even this one of Kleintjie. I know him all along as Kleintjie. I met him I think '96 at Grootvlei at Bloemfontein. I started then to know his real name. They also ...(inaudible) two Comrades. I don't know their real names.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you please ask your client to speak into the microphone. He is leaning right across, speaking across it, looking at us understandably it makes it very difficult to hear him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Made to repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: So he doesn't know the names of Roger and Scorpion?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman.

MR DOLO: At the time of the incident, the time of this incident we were staying at Jozanna's Walk in Transkei.

MR MBANDAZAYO: "At the time of this incident we were staying at Jozanna's Walk in Transkei" Will you be able to, can you explain to the Committee how far this area you were staying, this Jozanna's Walk to where this incident took place?

MR DOLO: I will say it was very far.

MR LAX: Are you able to give us an estimation in kilometres, or

MR DOLO: A couple of miles. Take it to be more than 10 plus.

MR LAX: So not more or more than?

MR DOLO: It's more than. I take it to be.

MR LAX: More than 10 kilometres, sorry.

MR DOLO: Let's say miles.

MR LAX: Miles. So that would be sixteen kilometres?

MR DOLO: We hiked on a truck to this spot and the arms were in the bag. I was the only person who knew what was going to happen and I briefed my unit when we arrived at the spot.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, the question is for the benefit of the Committee, whether when you were travelling to this spot, did the other Comrades not know what was going to happen and whether they did not now whether you are carrying weapons in the bag? Can you explain to the Committee?

MR DOLO: The, my Comrades, they knew where we are going, that is we are going to an operation, but they did not know what form of an operation and the kind of an operation that we are going to embark on it.

MR LAX: Sorry, but they knew the area you were going to?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Continue, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: "I deployed the unit on the same side of the road. I told them that we were to attack cars whose occupants were white." Now, my first question would be, do you still remember which side of the road you deployed with the Comrades?

MR DOLO: I'm not sure about which side. I don't recall it now. I think my fellow Comrade who has also applied for this case maybe will help me in this.

MR LAX: Have you looked at the photographs in the new bundle?

MR DOLO: Not yet.

MR LAX: Maybe you should have a look at the photograph on page 17.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Which bundle Mr Chairman?

MR LAX: The new bundle, bundle "B", in other words. This is a photograph taken from the air and Sterkspruit area is on the top and Lady Grey direction is at the bottom. Maybe you can indicate to us on that photograph on the left or the right.

MR DOLO: I think we were on the, in which direction do I have to position myself when I look at it?

MR LAX: Well, if you are on the bottom of the photograph, looking towards the top of the photograph, you are looking in the direction of Sterkspruit.

MR DOLO: Okay.

MR LAX: I have made available the original photograph for clarity for the witness.

MR DOLO: I'm not sure about that, which side I was on it.

MR LAX: Please continue, Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Now, my same paragraph, Mr Chairman,

Can you explain that to the Committee? I will repeat again,

"I told them", paragraph 9, Mr Chairman "that we were to attack cars whose occupants were white". Can you explain that to the Committee?

MR DOLO: As a APLA Cadre, also as a member of the PAC we were engaged in the struggle to liberate this country, which was usurped by whites or normally ...(indistinct) Settler's Colonists. So our struggle was therefor for a liberation of mankind and of the overthrow of those Settlers, and the orders that I have from Mr Sibelo Palma, who is late current, gave us, my orders that I have to engage Settlers and continue with the arms struggle. And also, with the situation which emancipated around started 1990's whereby we find that African people civilians were being killed. The APLA structured High Command decided that we have to attack settlers whether they were normally known as so-called civilians in as a question of reprisal and in also as a self-defence as our people were being killed in cases like Boipathong, the question of the trains and etc.

CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying it was the APLA High Command policy at that time to attack whites, whoever they might be?

MR DOLO: If you read APLA's submission to the TRC, it made it clear there that they were, they gave orders to the killing of so-called white civilians as a question of reprisal and a question of self-defence. So, I was keeping those orders by the High Command of APLA.

MR LAX: With the greatest of respect, the submission by APLA to the TRC, and I was present during that submission, makes it quite clear that there is a question of proportionality involved here.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: You remember that?

MR DOLO: ...(indistinct) explained those questions of proportionalities.

MR LAX: Yes, it does. It talks about proportionality in relation to both political objectives to be achieved, in other words, a political implication of the attack that might be carried out and it goes from a sense of proportionality in terms of the sense you have used it as one of reprisal. In other words, if the regime was to hit us, we would hit back at the regime.

MR DOLO: As it was happening.

MR LAX: Precisely. So, what, what were you engaging in reprisals for?

MR DOLO: I have mentioned a few examples, the case of ...(intervention)

MR LAX: The Boipathong was much later than this.

MR DOLO: It was in line therefor.

MR LAX: But it happened after this event. Had not yet happened.

MR DOLO: If you read it broadly the statement, submission of the ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Yes, I want to know what specific acts where you in reprisal against?

MR DOLO: I have mentioned the question of Boipathong.

CHAIRPERSON: How could you be in reprisal against something that had not happened?

MR DOLO: Which had not happened?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR LAX: What did not happen?

CHAIRPERSON: Boipathong had not happened at this time, had it?

MR DOLO: It was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: When you launched this attack?

MR DOLO: When did it happen, Boipathong?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm sorry, Mr Dolo, my understanding as I was listening to you, are you not mentioning Boipathong as an example of the tragedies that were happening there at the time.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: You went on to talk about train shootings and I understood you to say that it was in that context that this policy was adopted.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: I'm just wanting to know what specific incidents you in your own mind when you formed the intention to carry out these reprisals.

MR DOLO: I generalise all those attacks which were committed against African civilians.

MR LAX: So you didn't have any specific attack in mind?

MR DOLO: You may use the one I already used.

MR LAX: Well, either you did or you did not? If you generalised it then you did not have a specific in mind. If you had a specific in mind then say which specific you had in mind.

MR DOLO: I mentioned the question of Boipathong as a specific one and I add that ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, I beg your pardon?

MR DOLO: I said I add, I made an addition to the question of the shootings that took place in the trains.

MR LAX: So, by attacking random white motorists, are you listening?

MR DOLO: Can you say again?

MR LAX: So by attacking random white motorists, you were in some way hoping to achieve a reprisal for the sorts of attacks that Boipathong and the train violence symbolised?

MR DOLO: And etceteras, etceteras.

MR LAX: Well what are the etceteras and etceteras?

MR DOLO: I think I have to go to these medias and organise from them their reports of the killings that took place in our townships committed by whites.

MR PRIOR: You see, you formed an opinion and you formed an intention and you formed an objective. We need to know from you in order to measure that objective for proportionality. What went through your mind? It's no good you going to read the newspapers now. We want to know what went through your mind then. Do you understand my question, I'm not trying to be unfair to you, but at the same time, you were the Commander, you chose the target, you formed an opinion. We want to know what motivated you. Not in general terms.

MR DOLO: The question of the attacks, the question, sorry, the question of the trains whereby people were being killed on the trains that was one that motivated me a lot.

MR LAX: You see, the train violence, just as a matter of interest, was in a general third force capacity. Even to this day, no one knows exactly for sure who did that.

MR DOLO: I take it we the Africans knew who committed such acts, those atrocities.

MR LAX: But they were totally random. That's the point we're trying to make. People were killed randomly regardless of their political affiliations.

MR DOLO: We are dealing here with the question of the reprisals.

MR LAX: Yes, I'm trying to understand a random attack against all and sundry. How could your attack against whites be any reprisal for that?

MR DOLO: I have mentioned some few incidents whereby our people were being killed.

MR LAX: Well, you have mentioned Boipathong and you have mentioned general train violence.

MR DOLO: And I say etceteras.

MR LAX: Yes, but etceteras is not good enough for us. We need to know what you thought of in your head.

MR DOLO: The death also of our people in prisons. I forget also the name of this Comrade. One of the APLA Commanders who was also killed in prison.

MR LAX: Was it contemporaneous with this?

MR DOLO: Those, all those things, all those killings of our African people, they all, all come together and that's how I formed this opinion.

MR LAX: So, are you taking three hundred years of history and using that as a basis for reprisal?

MR DOLO: You may take it that way.

MR LAX: No, I am not going to take it anyway. I want to know what you want me to do?

MR DOLO: Then I am saying to you take it that way.

MR LAX: No.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, ... (intervention)

ADV SANDI: Sorry Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Dolo, you have given to us what seems to have been the general context as you understood it at the time in question. Now, can I ask a question? You have referred to murderous assaults which were being perpetrated on the African people at that time. Were you holding the white population in any way responsible for that?

MR DOLO: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Can you explain that please?

MR DOLO: It was generally known that the people that committed such acts where white and APLA take a decision then that if there would be such atrocities against our people, they will be engaged in revenge or as I mentioned reprisal, and also in self-defence.

ADV SANDI: Are you sure that all these acts where being committed by whites. Don't you think you need some explaining to do on that one?

MR DOLO: That will be the work of the Police to give us who committed those acts, but we, we the people the limit we generally know that those people who committed acts where white.

MR LAX: You see, to this day there is not one shred of evidence that a white person went onto a train and killed and shot and threw and stabbed anyone off the train. Those were black people who did those things. So they didn't commit them as white people. That's what I am trying to understand from you. That's a fact that everybody accepts in this country. No matter whose side you're on. Whether the orders might have been issued by whites that's a different issue, but you are saying those acts were committed by whites. They were not. The facts at the moment, and we've delved very deeply into this as the Truth Commission show that they were committed by black people.

MR DOLO: And were said by whom to commit such acts?

MR LAX: Well, that's a different issue, but you're saying they were committed by white people. You didn't say they were sent by white people.

MR DOLO: They are collaborators.

MR SIBANYONI: When you refer to whites, Mr Dolo, are you doing so without drawing any distinction between the white population and the white government which we all know was in place at the time?

MR DOLO: Come to what?

MR SIBANYONI: Do you draw any distinction there? When you talk about whites on the one hand. Is there any difference between the white government which we all know existed at the time, between the whites you are talking about?

MR DOLO: We find it as PAC members that there was no difference between whites and the white government. It was there because of those whites. They were the one who were voting, so they were part and parcel of that government. They benefited a lot from it.

MR SIBANYONI: You didn't draw any distinction between the two?

MR DOLO: I didn't draw any distinction.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Dolo, through you Mr Chairperson, you said when you left Zimbabwe coming into the country, you received orders from Sibelo Palma to say, engage the Settlers. What did you understand by the word "engage". What did it entail?

MR DOLO: That I would be the Commander. The fleet Commander on the ground and I would be physically be involved in attacks of whites.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you.

MR LAX: When exactly did you come back from Zimbabwe?

MR DOLO: '92.

MR LAX: And Sibelo Palma gave you this order in 1992?

MR DOLO: No.

MR LAX: When?

MR DOLO: '91. I think so.

MR LAX: In 1991? But you see, up until 1993 there was still a very clear distinction between attacking whites generally and attacking people connected to the Security Forces, farmers and people connected, or in some way who were black collaborators with the State. There was a very clear distinction right up until 1993 on that issue. It was only when the year of the Storm was declared in 1993 that that distinction ceased to exist. So I want you to explain how come you could have got such an order in 1991.

MR DOLO: Firstly I take it that I was not the only one who was given such an order, to come inside the country and engage the Settlers. And it was to their decision, the High Command of when to unleash such attacks against the Settlers. Then they decided that they are going maybe to, they started after 1993 that started 1992 if you recall a lot of some operation of which APLA was involved in it.

MR LAX: You see the point at which the High Command acknowledged that they ceased to differentiate was when Operation Storm started, and that was in 1993. That was the point at which the High Command decided, and Sibelo Palma in particular, decided that we now have to make whites understand that if they won't change they are going to suffer like our people are suffering. There will be no safety. They will not be able to sit in the quiet white suburbs and not suffer. That was the thrust of that whole Operation Storm. Do you conceive that?

MR DOLO: I'm sure if you are going to give maybe an order, such as that one that was given by Sibelo Palma in 1993 of the Great Storm that had been ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Yes.

MR DOLO: Great Storm. You have to know that as a Commander maybe you have deployed to people inside the country as like myself, the question of myself. I don't know if you get me?

MR LAX: You see, Mr Dolo APLA was deploying people from way before 1990. They were deploying people continuously for ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: For specific operations.

MR LAX: Not only for specific operations, in preparation for other operations that might come. When you create an army you don't just deploy it on an ad hoc basis. You build up your troops on the ground, you build up your cadres on the ground, you build up your lines of communication. The situation is not static. It changes. We understand that, we've all studied history.

MR DOLO: So, do you have a question?

MR LAX: Yes, I'm saying to you, you weren't simply deployed for Operation Storm two years prior to it. The material conditions on the ground determined when Operation Storm should happen.

MR DOLO: The Great Storm never specifies that it was only then that we have to attack so-called civilians, so-called ...(inaudible) that were being attacked by APLA. So, we don't have portray a line between these things that by attacked took place in 1992, as if it was contrary to what APLA's decision or that of the High Command of attacking whites.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think we will run around assessments of what was understanding of the orders given to Mr Dolo. How do we interpret them? How he interpreted them, and how this Committee interpreted the submissions of APLA, and I don't think we would be in a position to get any common ground on that aspect, on the understanding or interpretation of this.

MR LAX: I agree, let us press on. I was just trying to understand where your client was coming from, and the broader context within which these things happened. I can see we are going to have to agree to disagree for the moment. These things will become clearer as we go on anyway. You know we've sat through three weeks of hearings, so we have a much broader picture of other APLA commanders' outlooks and of their perceptions as well, not just your, this particular client. But let's move on, I agree.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. "Because it was" - paragraph 10, Mr Chairman,

Can you tell us how Kleintjie was going to give the signal?

MR DOLO: He was wearing a hat on his head. If he see a car which, of which its occupants were white, he is to raise it up and make it a sign out of it.

MR SIBANYONI: Would you mind, Mr Dolo, to repeat that, I did not follow you on that?

MR DOLO: I say Kleintjie was having a hat on his head. Then if he see a car whose occupants were white he was, I ordered him to raise the hat as a sign.

MR MBANDAZAYO: "A white", same paragraph, Mr Chairman, "a white bakkie came with white occupants and Kleintjie gave a signal and", sorry can I repeat that Mr Chairman, my mike was off?

Whilst you were there, can you tell the Committee who was the first to shoot when you ordered that the car must be attacked?

MR DOLO: As a Commander I gave orders that we had to attack the car which was approaching us. At that stage I was armed with a rifle and the other Comrades were armed with pistols and a revolver. We all attacked it. To be precisely speaking I think all on this case if Kleintjie was in the position to see us, he would be of help, but I also took part in attacking that car. To be specific in who started the attack I don't, I don't was to misinterpret myself.

EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: (cont)

Can you take the Committee through that? When you saw them running and taking and hiking the taxi, can you take the Committee step by step as what actually took place?

MR DOLO: After Kleintjie gave his signal of the approaching car I moved closer to the road trying to be inside the road, to stop it. I started shooting and also other Comrades were also shooting at that stage, but the car managed to pass through us as it was, Kleintjie was not far away from us and it was speeding. So it passed through us and we continued shooting it until it stopped and the occupants of the car managed to get out of it. And as they were running to the direction of Herschel or Sterkspruit there was an approaching car to their direction and it stopped for them and it made a U-turn and they entered the car and they moved or ran to the direction of Herschel. I continued shooting with an R4 rifle until the car capsized to the bridge.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, can you continue until you find ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: After that we continue our pursuit. As we passed the bridge we saw these two occupants who were in the car, the driver of the car and this white lady and we chased those who managed to escape out of the car. We managed to get one person and as I was behind the Comrades I, they left him there lying on the road. He was shot, and I also shot him.

MR LAX: How did you shoot him?

MR DOLO: I shoot him with the rifle. I was next to him and I ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Where did you shoot?

MR DOLO: I blow his head.

MR LAX: Sorry?

MR DOLO: I blow his head with an R4 rifle.

MR LAX: You actually put it up his neck here and shot him, is that right?

MR DOLO: I think it was in this part somewhere.

MR LAX: Sorry?

MR DOLO: I think it was somewhere here.

CHAIRPERSON: He's indicating the back of his head. The driver was a black man, was he?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can I proceed, Mr Chairman. "The other occu...." paragraph 11, Mr Chairman,

Can you tell the Committee how did this happen?

MR DOLO: That's what I ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, he has already. He's told us already.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: You know maybe he's got something more to add on that. Is there anything you would like to add, Mr Dolo?

MR DOLO: There is nothing to add.

MR MBANDAZAYO: -

Can you tell the Committee how did you do that, requesting them to borrow them, to borrow you their car?

MR DOLO: We were retreating to our area and we were using our foot, we were not having any car. On our way as we are moving the road to Herschel we saw this approaching car and there was this scene, it appeared when there was this scene of the shooting of this person who was lying on the road. So out of panic they reduced the speed of their car and then we managed to stop them and requested them to borrow them, borrow us, their car. And they did borrow us their car.

MR LAX: Did you do anything else to try and make them stop? How did you make them stop?

MR DOLO: I went into the road and I used the hand to stop them.

CHAIRPERSON: Went into the road and did what?

MR DOLO: And I used a hand to stop the car.

MR LAX: Just for the record, you indicated that you held up your hand, as one would normally say "stop".

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: But, Mr Dolo, these people did not know you, did they?

MR DOLO: Yes, they don't know me.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, but how could they have allowed a stranger to borrow their car?

MR DOLO: As I say they appear when this scene was come to its, when after all this things has happened. I'm sure they heard the shots on their way and as they were approaching us then there was this dead person in the road, and I take it maybe out of the situation as it was apparent to them they reduced the speed of the car, and it was easy for me to stop them.

ADV SANDI: Can I infer from what you have just said that these people were acting out of fear, with the utmost fear that prevailed?

MR DOLO: Normally, as you understand it the occupants of the car were females, and I take it that in that situation, normally, they would be feeling some sort of, feeling threatened by the scene.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you all have guns in your hands?

MR DOLO: At the time I was talking to them I was having an R4.

CHAIRPERSON: Mm?

MR DOLO: The time I was talking to them using my right hand ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR DOLO: I was holding an R4 with the left hand.

CHAIRPERSON: And the others, what were they doing?

MR DOLO: I did not notice them.

CHAIRPERSON: So you held them up at gun-point and took their vehicle?

MR DOLO: When you're holding a person at gun-point, I take it that you point a gun on them, and that's ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Or you hold your gun ready to use, as you did.

MR DOLO: I was not, I don't use a left hand to shoot. I used my right hand to stop them so meaning I was not holding them at gun-point.

MR SIBANYONI: But you were talking to them with a dangerous weapon in your possession and you were wanting that they hand the car over to you.

MR LAX: You don't seriously want to suggest to us that the firearm did not play any role in them stopping?

MR DOLO: No, I didn't suggest that. It may have played a role.

MR LAX: It probably played the biggest role because they knew that if they didn't stop they might get shot. Isn't that right?

MR DOLO: We were not going to shoot them.

MR LAX: But they didn't know that.

MR DOLO: Out of them maybe, maybe, but they were having their minds.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say there were two of them?

MR DOLO: Sorry, will you repeat again

CHAIRPERSON: You say there were two of them.

MR DOLO: I think so.

CHAIRPERSON: Mm?

MR DOLO: I think there were two occupants. The driver ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: From the statements we're given, we've been told there were four.

MR DOLO: I'm not aware of that.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you dispute it?

MR DOLO: I don't dispute it.

CHAIRPERSON: So you took these four people out of their car and left them there where the body was? Is that the position?

MR DOLO: We took them out of the car, they after all came out of their car.

CHAIRPERSON: And you left them there with the body, well there more, there were three bodies there, weren't there?

MR DOLO: How, what I say?

CHAIRPERSON: There were three bodies there, one lying on the road, and two in the ...(indistinct) had fallen off the road.

MR DOLO: The other two, the one who were on the bridge, I take them to be a distance away from the one who was lying on the road.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I move to paragraph 12.

now just before I finish the paragraph, can you explain to the Committee how was this 4 X 4 almost blocking your way, before you ordered Kleintjie to shoot it and it reversed?

MR DOLO: After we have this bakkie I was the one who was going to drive it. I went to the driver's seat and as I went making a turn, and as the car was on the, turning around the road then there was this car which could not allow me to make a complete turn. Then when I noticed the occupant of the car, I found out it was a white person and the person who was closed that window of the side of the window to the road, it was Kleintjie and he was armed with the rifle which I was using. Then I ordered him to shoot at the car, to shoot at the occupant of the car.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you tell the Committee, did you manage to shoot the occupant of the car?

MR DOLO: He managed to release I think three shots, not more, I don't know how many shots, but he managed to shoot.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you tell the Committee what happened to the occupants of the car and to the car, the 4 X 4?

MR DOLO: The occupant of the car, after he heard the shots, he managed to reverse the car and on that time I was also making this U-turn and he were on the other side of the road and it were on the other side of the road. Then we forget about it. Then we drove off.

ADV SANDI: I'm trying to get a clear picture in mind as to what was happening here, did you go, did you both go in the same direction with this occupant of the car you are talking about?

MR DOLO: He was going to Herschel and we were going to Herschel too, so we reversed the car and made this turn to Herschel.

MR LAX: Say that again. He was going to Herschel, you were going to Herschel, you reversed the car and went to Herschel. That does not make sense.

MR DOLO: The car was not faced to Herschel the one which was taken by me, this, er ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Ladies.

MR DOLO: Ladies. So I made this turn to so that it can face to Herschel.

MR LAX: Right.

MR DOLO: As it was coming to that direction. That's what I did.

MR LAX: But you said he was going to Herschel, he reversed and then he went to, he made a turn and went to Herschel. Did you make the turn?

MR DOLO: I was the one who was making the turn.

MR LAX: Okay. Did he not turn and drive the opposite direction?

MR DOLO: I don't know about that.

MR LAX: So he managed to reverse out of your range and you left him? You were more interested in getting away, in retreating?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR SIBANYONI: You also said "we drove away and we saw the other white man hiking along the road. I tried to run him down. He ran away. I decided to leave him."

Can you tell the Committee whether when you tried to run down this white man, did he recognise that you are the same people who attacked him when he was hiking?

MR DOLO: I don't think he noticed us as the time we are attacking the car we were moving on foot, that's why maybe he made this hike. I don't think so, he noticed that we were the same people who were attacking that car.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm getting very confused on this. You say this car was travelling towards Herschel?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: That means it would have been coming from Sterkspruit.

MR DOLO: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Is Herschel in the same direction as Sterkspruit?

MR DOLO: It's directional to Herschel.

CHAIRPERSON: But Sterkspruit is the same direction as Herschel.

MR DOLO: It's the same.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

Can you tell the Committee the name of the Superiors you reported this incident to after it happened and what was their reaction?

MR DOLO: I referred to Comrade ... (indistinct) operation, that is Lethlapha Mphahlele as my Superior.

MR SIBANYONI: Can you tell the Committee what was his reaction after you reported to him about this incident?

MR DOLO: He encouraged me to continue further attacks on Settlers and he was happy about that.

ADV SANDI: We have seen in other cases that in these types of incidents the report would be given in writing. In what form did you report this to Mr Lethlapha? There was no written report, you just told him what had happened?

MR DOLO: The question of the written report would take a lot of time. It will require maybe three days to reach their place. Sometimes I have to go there and report in myself, in my person in front of them. Sometimes I have to use the phone as there, as it is a fast way of communication. So, in this incident, I used the phone.

ADV SANDI: Did you give him what you would consider to be a detailed report? How detailed was this report?

MR DOLO: It was not detailed. It was totally not detailed. It was not detailed.

MR SIBANYONI: Could you tell the Committee did you subsequently make a written report regarding this incident?

MR DOLO: I do, repeat the question again, sorry.

MR SIBANYONI: Did you subsequently, after reporting to them, to him telephonically, did you subsequently make a written report?

MR DOLO: Yes, I do, I do. In some other incidents, depending to the type of the operation, whether they need further clarity to it. But, as a modus of operandi of the APLA, we do written reports.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you make a report, written report, in connection with this incident?

MR DOLO: With this one I went to Umtata, later. I don't know when. I don't recall when, to give them a written report.

MR SIBANYONI: Now, Mr Dolo, is there anything that you maybe, you have not told the Committee regarding this incident, you want to add regarding this incident?

MR DOLO: All the particulars of this incident I will talk about the operations that I have been involved in, as well as some of the operation I was involved to that they were all politically motivated. They were having the blessings of the "Commissariat" Department and we all acted on Commanders of the High Command. Orders of the High Command and they were justified by our ...(indistinct), that is the PAC as if you to their objectives of the PAC, the aims and objectives of the PAC that will be clause no 2 where they talk of the overthrow of the of the Settler's Colonies in all its forms and whereby an arms struggle was adopted as to be a main form of the struggle. And further, the piece goes further to mention our struggle, that it was the struggle of the oppression of the nation that it will be an African nation oppressed by Settler Colonists from Europe and our struggle was between these nations and we were not fighting in abstract. We were not merely fighting apartheid as an abstract as, after all, apartheid started 1948. Our struggles continue since the arrival of the Settlers in 1652. So, we were fighting the people, like in each and every struggle if you go through history, people don't fight in abstract, they compromise all those things and fight it, the oppressor. Be he then in South Africa, the white person, they were fighting such people.

MR SIBANYONI: That is all, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Mr Mthembu.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu?

MR LAX: Hello, Jerome?

MR MTHEMBU: I have no questions, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Mr Dolo, what you have just told us, and if I try and understand what you have been telling us, was this part of your political training, that you were taught that the white man had from 1652, the very time that he put his foot in this country, he was the enemy. He was the enemy of the black man. Is that, is that the training, the type of training, ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: I started to be familiar with the politics of the PAC in 1984 and if you go through to history, when they arrived in 1652, that year there was war between the Africans and the Settlers, and one of the kings of the Africans was killed in one of those wars.

MR LAX: Yes, we've heard all of that, but are you saying part of your political training was that you were taught that the white man was an enemy from the moment he settled in the country?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: And, there was in your mind, was there no room for the white man in South Africa and Azania?

MR DOLO: I mean if you are a visitor, you have to ask the occupants of the house ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Do you understand my question? In your mind was there any room for the white man in your Azania?

MR DOLO: They give themselves a room without the occupants of the house.

MR LAX: Do you want to answer the question?

MR DOLO: Do you want to repeat it again?

MR LAX: The question is quite simple, and really you are avoiding the question with your quite clever answer, but it's a very simple question. Is there room for white people in South Africa in terms of your philosophy? Yes or no?

MR DOLO: At that stage ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Not at that stage, at any stage.

MR DOLO: Whether there is a room for whites ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Even now, do you think that white people are legitimately in this country or not?

MR DOLO: As long as they recognise themselves as whites and as oppressors, then there is no room for them.

MR LAX: So, was your training that all white people were oppressors? It that what you were taught by you, your leaders and your instructors?

MR DOLO: It goes further than that, that there will be those so-called whites who want to associate themselves with the cause of the oppressed people ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Answer my question please, Mr Dolo, then we will finish this matter very quickly ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Sorry, he is trying to answer your question, he is saying there would be some whites who would identify themselves, let him finish. Who would identify themselves with the African people and their struggles, carry on, finish it.

MR DOLO: We were warned about, against those people, that they were there only to direct our struggle and to thwart it and to make sure that we didn't achieve our just objectives of a genuine liberation.

MR LAX: So any white person who showed any sympathy for the black people was simply a charlatan who was trying to undo, derail your struggle?

MR DOLO: It think that it the right word, a Charlatan.

MR LAX: So, in other words, all white people, whatever they, all white people, even those who appeared to oppose the apartheid regime, were also regarded as the enemy of the African people, is that correct?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: It might surprise you to know that there were a number of white members of the PAC, even one of APLA. How was that possible on your, the theory you have just said to us?

MR DOLO: I didn't get it.

MR LAX: Well, we're saying to you there are white members of the PAC, there are white members, and were white members of APLA. Your High Command told us about that when they made a submission to us. On your version that is absolutely not possible.

MR DOLO: I was not aware of that.

MR LAX: Your instructions during 1992 to engage the white man, or the white Settlers as you put it, that came before the year of the Storm, the Great Storm, which was proclaimed in 1993, is that correct? I just want to understand you.

MR DOLO: Repeat is again.

MR LAX: Your instructions to engage, in other words attack and kill, the white man wherever you might find him, that was the policy or the instructions you were given by your APLA Commanders before the year of the Great Storm that was announced in 1993.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: You were versed in the 15 rules or 15 aspects of discipline of the, of APLA, is that correct?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Did you know them all?

MR DOLO: If you can recall them, you will ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Sorry, please just come a bit closer to the microphone, again you are leaning right back. We can't hear you. Thanks.

MR DOLO: You were talking about 15 rules?

MR LAX: The 15 points of attention, as they were called.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Yes, were you familiar before the attack in November 1992 with all these rules, or points of attention?

MR DOLO: Yes, I was familiar.

ADV SANDI: Should one understand you to say that when you were trained, where those 15 rules incorporated with the main point of this training?

MR DOLO: They were part of the training.

MR LAX: Was there any special reference to captives or people that have captured, or people in your charge? Were they to be treated in any specific way?

MR DOLO: We were not subscribed to this Geneva agreement whereby there would be prisoners of war and they would be given such treatment. We never abided to that.

MR LAX: Were you actually instructed not to take prisoners?

MR DOLO: Those were my orders.

MR LAX: Did you hear of any commands or Comrades being given to take prisoners?

MR DOLO: Repeat again.

MR LAX: Did you ever hear of any commands given by APLA High Command to actually take prisoners? Let's say for interrogation purposes?

MR DOLO: I know we do interrogations.

MR LAX: Of white people?

MR DOLO: People would be captured and be interrogated.

MR LAX: Did you ever capture people?

MR DOLO: On myself, I never captured a white person interrogating.

MR LAX: But you know of instances where that was done?

MR DOLO: I take it that such things happened.

MR LAX: Do you just accept that it happened, or do you know of any incidents where that happened?

MR DOLO: I don't have any specific incident.

MR LAX: Thank you. Any, if you are taking property from the general population, and I am referring specifically to the black population, is there any particular way that you have to conduct yourselves?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Can you maybe just mention to the Committee how did you, how were you to go about obtaining property from the black population? If you had to use it for your purposes?

MR DOLO: I don't get you. You talk of a property that we have to get it from the community.

MR LAX: Yes.

MR DOLO: What?

MR LAX: Well, for example a motor vehicle or money or food or clothing. Was there any specific way that you had to approach the population or the public in order to acquire that property that you wanted?

MR DOLO: It goes with the environment to find the stuff you need. It will be governed by the terrain what conduct you applied.

MR LAX: Sorry, I didn't year the first part of your answer. Can you just repeat that? Now you are sitting a bit too close to that microphone, I'm sorry. That's, thanks. Just repeat that again. I couldn't, it was a bit distorted in my earphones.

MR DOLO: I am asking my lawyer what did I say.

MR LAX: Let me help you with the question. The question was, how were you to go about getting people to assist you with property or material, assets or vehicles, whatever it might be, in terms of those points of attention? The specifics in that points of attention, directing you as to what you should do, and how you should treat fellow black people if you needed to use them for anything or use anything of theirs.

MR DOLO: I think I say it would be governed by the terrain.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but what was the general rules? In what way, to put the question differently, in what way were you expected to conduct yourselves when dealing with a member of the community, from whom you want assistance, say in the form of getting his or her vehicle? How were you expected to go about interacting with that person?

MR DOLO: As I think I'll be broader in answering this. We believe that APLA got the mandate to continue to struggle from it's mandate from the Azanian people, the one we are talking about, and it goes further than that we have to be neighbourly when we are dealing with such people and we have to be kind and I think we have to add also what I have said that things will be governed also by the, as to give us a portion whereby we have to allow that what I am saying of the question of the terrain that will be governed also by the terrain.

ADV SANDI: Is that to say that, that being the rule, to be neighbourly as you have said, to be kind to this person. Should one understand you to say that it is not say that you would stick to those rules in a rigid fashion?

MR DOLO: So, you are putting aside what I have added after

that, that the question of the terrain?

ADV SANDI: You will have to explain what you mean, Mr Dolo, by the terrain.

MR DOLO: If circumstances like the one I find myself in it involving this case, I take it all this question revolving around the way after all, whereby I was having a rifle on my left hand and there was this civilians, African people were approaching us, and I have to stop them to in request of the car. The manner of the approach I use, I use PAC decorum. I was governed after by it, which demands that we have to be, as I mentioned that we have to be neighbourly and that we have to be kind to our fellow Africans.

MR LAX: Mr Prior?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: Yes.

MR LAX: I want to read to you what, what I see in Mrs Booysen's statements at page 11 of bundle "B". She was the driver of this blue Isuzu van with a white canopy that you stopped. She was driving with three passengers, Mrs Dlepu, Mrs Ndepe and Mrs Molongwana. They were all schoolteachers. She said:

" When we were at Dipona, I saw a van parked near the road on the left, facing Sterkspruit. On the curve there appeared four black men on right of the road armed with firearms. The two armed with rifles and handgrenades, the other two armed with pistols and they carried a blue striped bag "

Is that correct so far?

MR DOLO: Is it not correct, in terms of empowerment. It talks about rifles, I don't know how many rifles ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Two

MR DOLO: Apparently two rifles ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Two?

MR DOLO: There were no two rifles and further there were no grenades.

MR PRIOR: Well you said in your begining of your evidence you had two R4's and F24 and stick grenades.

MR DOLO: Where I was based ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Just for the record, this is on page 11 of the second bundle, just so we are all on this.

MR PRIOR: I go on,

Is this correct?

MR DOLO: I don't get it. It's no first, then we were ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Alright, before the no, did you point your firearm at them?

MR DOLO: I even showed the court, this hearing, how I approached them, that I used my right hand to stop them as I was having the rifle in my left hand.

MR PRIOR: Alright, so obviously ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: I was not aware of the other Comrades, of what they were doing at the stage.

MR PRIOR: So, as far as you are concerned, no firearms were pointed at these ladies?

MR DOLO: I am talking about myself.

MR PRIOR: As far as he is concerned, as far as he is aware, no firearms were pointed at these women.

MR DOLO: Who?

MR LAX: What he is saying is that he doesn't know what the others were doing, as far as he is concerned, he didn't point the firearm.

MR DOLO: That's what I am saying.

MR LAX: It's quite conceivable the others might have, but he doesn't know, he didn't see.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct that you instructed the driver to drive to Sterkspruit?

MR DOLO: I think firstly, I instructed her to drive us to Sterkspruit, but after that I changed again.

MR PRIOR: She says she was afraid of the weapons. She couldn't drive. I gain the impression from this that she must have been terrified.

MR DOLO: I was not in her mind of what, why she, what was she afraid of?

MR PRIOR: As far as you could see, did she behave as if she was terrified? Incapable of even driving the vehicle?

MR DOLO: If, when we were inside the car, we were able to conceal the weapons so the question of being threatened, it's put that all aside.

MR PRIOR: Alright, if I understand your evidence then, you were on your best behaviour in the true PAC/APLA fashion dealing with these people of your own community, requesting her in a very civil and neighbourly way her vehicle, is that correct? And because of that courteous request they allowed you to enter and board upon the vehicle and eventually drive off with the vehicle, is that correct?

MR DOLO: Repeat again.

MR PRIOR: Because of your manner, your gentle manner, your neighbourly manner, your courteous manner, you were able then to obtain the vehicle and drive away with it, is that right?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Where did you take the vehicle to?

MR DOLO: I don't know the place, I forgot the area where we drop it.

MR PRIOR: Where, in Sterkspruit?

MR DOLO: When we ...(inaudible) towards the town of Sterkspruit or the surrounding ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Did you leave it there? Did you abandon it there?

MR DOLO: We drove to, we left towards Sterkspruit that's the whole area.

MR PRIOR: Did you go where you were meant to go, your destination?

MR DOLO: We didn't reach our destination, due the lack of the fuel of the car.

MR PRIOR: So you ran out of fuel?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And you just left the car on the side of the road?

MR DOLO: Not on the side of the road, there were this area next to it then I drove to one of the schools there, then I left the car there.

MR PRIOR: And left the keys in ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: I left the keys inside the car.

MR PRIOR: Do you know if the owner got the vehicle back?

MR DOLO: As we noticed, when we were driving to our area there was a roadblock which was mounted by the police, inside the Sterkspruit. I take it out of their investigation the car will be discovered sooner and they would be able then to receive their car.

MR PRIOR: I see. So you knew the police had mounted an investigation who were looking for you?

MR DOLO: Who?

MR PRIOR: The police.

MR DOLO: Were looking?

MR PRIOR: For you people, your unit.

MR DOLO: I take it the roadblock was there for that.

MR PRIOR: Now, I just want to ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Mr Prior, sorry. How far was this roadblock from the point were you left this vehicle?

MR DOLO: There was a hill which we had to go to it and the roadblock was mounted when you pass through this hill. There was this question of the fuel of the car and since I see the hill and decided I don't think we will make it. Then I decided to park the car next to the school. As we were moving not far away from this roadblock then that's how we noticed it.

MR PRIOR: Now your objective there was to kill white people driving on that road.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: To put your evidence in a nutshell. Now you arrived at that spot by truck you had obtained a lift there.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Was that the first time that you had get to that spot and been at that area?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: I don't, could you maybe explain in the light of that reply your evidence at par.6 of your affidavit, page 2 of the new bundle "B". You said, "the target was identified by myself". Yes, on the 11th of November, my understanding is that was the first day, or the first time that you had gone to that particular area or that particular part of the road.

MR DOLO: I am still searching for this.

MR PRIOR: Page 2 of bundle "B", par. 6 of his affidavit. First line of that paragraph.

MR DOLO: If you take it from my affidavit as the one who gave target, that's how we came about that, that I was the one who gave the, who ordered and gave which target has to be attacked.

MR PRIOR: It's just interesting, you'd get the instructions from Sibelo Palma, and Mphahlele. You then go on to say "the target was identified by myself". Do you mean from that, that you had at that stage identified the Herschel Road, that Sterkspruit Lady Grey Road as your target, your intended target for this operation?

MR DOLO: As the Regional Commander we, I talk about myself, I was given powers, to put it, and further as a guerrilla army of which it is not a regular army, we were using initiative in deciding which attack needed to be carried out. So, out of the data I had about the target which has to attacked then I shoot this one and I informed my Superior about which target I had to, I am going to attack and after the attack.

MR PRIOR: Before the attack you identified this particular piece of road as being the place where you were going to go and kill white people driving in vehicles, is that right?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying that you then communicated that to your Superiors?

MR DOLO: I communicated that there was going to be an attack.

MR PRIOR: Is that all you said?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You never gave any details of who you were going to attack, how you were going to attack and where you were going to attack?

MR DOLO: I told that I, we were going to attack whites as they were the target.

MR PRIOR: And you got approval from Lethlapha Mphahlele to go and do that?

MR DOLO: Sorry, what did you say?

MR PRIOR: You obtained approval to go and do that?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And then you launched this particular attack on the 19th of November 1992 ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: With your unit?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Had you done any surveillance of that area before the 19th of November '92 when you actually carried out this attack?

MR DOLO: I was on that road before that attack. I knew the area and I don't know whether I have my submission here to the TRC. There is something I want to read. If you can go through my application to the TRC ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Just refer us to which page of it in the bundle or paragraph.

MR DOLO: That will be page 2.

MR PRIOR: Yes.

MR DOLO: It's dealing about places.

MR PRIOR: Yes, I can see it. It's paragraph 9(a)(iii).

MR DOLO: There is also mention of Lady Grey that places ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Yes, you say there Diepkloof, Orlando, Ficksburg, Lady Grey, Zastron ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And Eikenhof.

MR DOLO: By Lady Grey and also I made this attack also, I never specify it was meant only to this attack. We attacked cars even before this one in the road.

CHAIRPERSON: You say "we attacked cars before this one on that road". When was that?

MR DOLO: I don't know how many days before that one.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was the result of the attacks?

MR DOLO: We never heard anything in relation to question of a death or people who were wounded.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you damage the cars? Did you hit them?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think one of them is going to be subject of hearing if I am not mistaken.

ADV SANDI: Which one do you have in mind, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you come again Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Which particular incident are you referring to, are you able to point out the ...(intervention)

MR MBANDAZAYO: I am saying, Mr Chairman, if I am not mistaken as he correctly put it, that it was not the first time, there is in this area, if I am not mistaken, Mr Chairman, which is going to the subject of hearing, unless I am mistaken, I am not sure.

MR PRIOR: Well, let him tell us about it, Mr Mbandazayo.

CHAIRPERSON: He said it was on that road. "We attacked cars before this one on that road". That's what he told us a moment ago. We are asking him to tell us about it.

MR PRIOR: You started off saying a couple of days before this attack ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You attacked some other cars.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: So tell us a bit more about that.

MR DOLO: I ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: What did you, who went with ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: I think it was the same unit. I was with it. I think so. I was with the same unit. I am ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Did you have the same weapons?

MR DOLO: There were then no R4. Instead of a R4 there will be a stand submachine gun and there will be no pistols, instead there will be a, what we normally called molotovs, which were petrol bombs. And others will be armed with knives.

MR PRIOR: Just to clear up this thing about pistols.

MR DOLO: A pistol?

MR PRIOR: I understood your previous evidence what, that you had revolvers, not pistols.

MR DOLO: Can you say, what are you saying?

MR PRIOR: Well, which pistols did you use in this, in the first. So there was one revolver and one pistol.

MR DOLO: Sorry, for the correction of the record, it was, I think it was a .38 special, not a pistol.

MR PRIOR: Okay.

MR DOLO: Only one and this stand submachine gun and petrol bombs, and I think others will be armed with knives.

CHAIRPERSON: What is a 9mm short? Isn't that a pistol.

MR DOLO: It is a pistol.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that's what you said in your affidavit. A 38 special and a 9mm short.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think he's answering about the other incident, what were they armed with. Not in this one, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: So the pistols wasn't there, but the revolver was, is that what you're saying?

MR DOLO: I think so, yes I think so.

MR PRIOR: No, because when you said pistols in the plural I was puzzled, because I thought there was one .38 special, which is a revolver and one 9mm.

CHAIRPERSON: How many cars did you attack on this previous occasion?

MR DOLO: More than one.

CHAIRPERSON: How many more?

MR DOLO: I don't know how many, but I don't think it would be more than three.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you throw the molotovs?

MR DOLO: Yes. I was there at the road instructing them of how to attack and how to lay ambush.

MR PRIOR: So was this a training operation, not an operation per se?

MR DOLO: It was an operation and partly a training exercise.

MR PRIOR: Where these reinforced molotovs or just ordinary molotovs?

MR DOLO: What happened?

MR PRIOR: Where these reinforced molotovs or just ordinary ones? In other words did you wrap them around with extra nails and all that sort of things, or were they, just ordinary ones?

MR DOLO: We're talking about petrol bombs?

MR PRIOR: Yes, molotovs.

MR DOLO: They can't be wrapped with nails.

MR PRIOR: Some of the ones we've seen have had extra stuff wound round the side.

MR DOLO: Then they were not reinforced, these ones.

MR PRIOR: I'm just interested to follow up briefly on the fact that the attacks that you launched a few days before the 19th of November, that is this matter Herschel, was partly a training run. I that, do I understand you correctly?

MR DOLO: Partly that of training.

MR PRIOR: To what, did you have to see how the molotovs would explode or how the, your unit would react? Just explain that to me, why was it necessary to do this training on that piece of the road?

MR DOLO: It was to orientate the recruits and it goes further that a question of orientation and also in that a part, it was that of operation.

MR PRIOR: How did you get that, if I can refer to it as the training attack? I differentiate it from the attack we are now dealing with. How did you get there, did you also get a lift there to that?

MR DOLO: No, we travelled by foot as part of training. We have to travel many kilometres.

MR PRIOR: Through the veld?

MR DOLO: Through the road and through the veld.

MR PRIOR: And did you retreat back to your base before you came again on the 19th of November.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And you say, it was the same unit that you used? Scorpion, and ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: Yes it was the same unit.

MR PRIOR: Roger and Kleintjie? Now ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Before we go on, Mr Prior, how many, you said there were other attacks that you committed, other operations. This is just one you have told us about. What other ones were there?

MR DOLO: I think it was the third time when we carry out this one. We were there on two occasions before we embark on this one.

MR PRIOR: Okay, so you said this one was a few days before the ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: The other one.

MR PRIOR: The fatal attack. When was the one before that?

MR DOLO: They were just a day, we attacked this day and then go again the second day to do the same thing.

MR PRIOR: So you travelled more than 16 kilometres on foot?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: To the site of this place?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You hadn't attacked. You went back the next day, you travelled all the way back again.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You went back ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: As part of exercise.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you go back to the same place?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: But surely you must have anticipated the police being there, if you carried out attack after attack at the same place on the road?

MR DOLO: Lucky for us there were no police to pursue us.

MR PRIOR: Why haven't you told us about these matters in your amnesty application?

MR DOLO: As it is written in my application, I mentioned just Lady Grey. I thought I will be asked at length what I was referring to a later degree then specifically to this one.

MR PRIOR: Well why didn't you mention it in your affidavit?

MR DOLO: The TRC requested only in this attack. They never asked me at length.

MR PRIOR: Well they didn't know about the other ones. Why didn't you mention them in your ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: So how did they know about this one?

MR PRIOR: Because this one was in your application, and the police also knew about this matter being investigated.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't think it was also, it was in their application just said Lady Grey, Mr Chairman, and I think after that they asked him what does he mean about that and he replied to that. I don't know whether it's here, but here in the application is only written Lady Grey.

CHAIRPERSON: In this application he says one "Lady Grey and Zastron I ambushed white persons"

MR PRIOR: You see, Mr Mbandazayo, this is the first anyone has ever heard about this thing. These additional attacks.

MR DOLO: I was referring to injuries and if they were also dead, that's why I mentioned that in one Lady Grey. As I believe prior that in the other attacks there was no, it was never mentioned in the media, or we never killed any persons, I take it that.

MR PRIOR: But you don't know that. It's quite possible you injured some people. They just never mentioned it in the media.

MR DOLO: I don't think so we injured any person.

MR PRIOR: You see the format at point 9(a)(i) doesn't say injuries or murders or anything like that. It says acts, admissions or offences. You understand?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Please Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Form 9(a)(i) on the actual form doesn't specify people who were injured or not. It just say acts, omissions or offences and there are some acts, omissions and offences you have not told us about. You understand Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr chairman, I could see that, but Mr Chairman, I have request the Committee because the problem here is that, you know, the way these forms are filled it's such that it's, for instance the date, it's May 1993 and I don't think all these things happened in May 1993, Diepkloof, Orlando, Ficksburg and Lady Grey. So, there is no sufficient details, Mr Chairman. I wish the Committee to bring the ones did last year that people who are filling these forms are unassisted and they are filling their own, they don't understand technicalities involved in what they are expected to do, most of the times.

CHAIRPERSON: And what was the affidavit expected to do? Wasn't it requested months ago by the TRC?

MR MBANDAZAYO: I was, the only time I became aware of this, that they wanted to form this, this hearing was scheduled, and they were just referring to certain incident and I want to obtain for that the particular incident. I thought that the others, because I knew that he is involved in other operations and I have been told also now today, told by the TRC, that I have to make affidavit in certain incidents. Some other, they are still going to be scheduled, as is also the case with other applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, if he hasn't applied for amnesty in respect of other incidents, they won't be scheduled, will they? He won't be granted amnesty.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I agree with you, Mr Chairman, if that's the case, Mr Chairman, but that's the matter we are looking into because he is telling me that there was a fax which was sent, requesting certain particulars regarding certain incidents, but unfortunately, Mr Chairman, I think my understanding is that it was, it was sent to the prison authorities, and prison authorities sent it to the PAC offices in Port Elizabeth. I haven't heard, I haven't received it, what is actually they wanted regard with which incident, But I've had to tackle this one because this one, it was already scheduled. So, I don't know whether in those, these they appear. I'm not sure about, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, maybe if I can just assist Mr Mbandazayo, it is correct. He came in at a fairly late stage, that he was, that it was indicated that he was acting for Mr Dolo in this particular matter and to that end, knowing that this matter was scheduled in Aliwal North, undertook at his earliest convenience, given the logistics involved and his involvement in East London, was to obtain an affidavit from Mr Dolo on this specific matter.

CHAIRPERSON: There was no enquery made before for further details for the amnesty application.

MR PRIOR: I understand there was, but I don't have those details now. He did them to the Committee, the evidence analyst is here, who prepared the matter, and I am no doubt her file is available, Mr Chairman, and I can present those if they are necessary.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, as has been pointed out, there is a number of incidents refferred to, but only one date, May 1993. I would have certainly thought that there would have been some attempt to clarify that.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I may say that Diepkloof, Orlando, Ficksburg, Eikenhof form the subject matter of amnesty hearings in other provinces. Lady Grey and Zastron, well, I don't know if this witness is referring to Zastron, because there was certainly two attacks that form the subject matter of these hearings at the Sterkspruit Mayaputi bridge, which is a substantial, well, it's a distance away from this present locality. So, I don't know if this witness is being getting confused with those matters. There certainly, petrol bombs were used or at least one incident a petrol bomb was used. So, I don't know if he is getting confused with the matters that occurred in the Lady Grey district and those matters which occurred in the Zastron district.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I was trying get that, Mr Chairman, and then it seems if it's not what we are talking about, Mr Prior, it's that it's not one which is subject of the hearing of the Committee, he is talking about the same place, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I will simply place on record that I have consulted with the investigators involved and this is the first time we, I have knowledge, or bear knowledge now, having heard from the applicant, of other attacks at the same locality on the Sterkspruit Lady Grey bridge. Anyway, I will make enquiries Mr Chairman.

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Prior, have you noted that the, these were said, the applicant has voluntarily disclosed that information anyway. You didn't know about it, we didn't know about it.

MR PRIOR: Yes, I'll have to check its veracity. It may, it is so that he is now coming out with it in reply to a question regarding training, but I will certainly have to check on it to see whether in fact that fact occurred. So, you went to a spot on a number of, well, at least two occasions, three occasions. Now when you went on the 19th of November did your unit not know then that what you were going to attack were in fact vehicles and white people in vehicles?

MR DOLO: As a commander, I am the one who has to inform them of what to attack, and what not to attack.

MR PRIOR: But you were going there repeatedly to attack vehicles driven by white people. You had been there on three previous occasions. I beg your pardon, two previous occasions.

MR DOLO: Maybe on their mind they thought maybe it's still the process, the continuation of this training.

MR PRIOR: You see, I don't quite understand why you said that when you arrived there, you informed them that they were to attack whites.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: But they had already know that on two previous occasions.

MR DOLO: That was the orientation.

MR PRIOR: Alright.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Prior. I mean your evidence previously was that you had never been to that place yourself. That was your previous evidence. Now you are telling us you went there two times before. Please explain this for us.

MR DOLO: Where is it stated, where I say I never been there?

MR LAX: In your testimony to us this afternoon, earliest part of your testimony, you said didn't know that place, you hadn't been there before. It was your first time to go there.

MR DOLO: I arrived at Sterkspruit 1992, around, I think around June or July I'd been in that place since then. Up to ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Let's leave it, the record will speak for itself, I'm just putting it to you.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Now the vehicle, the first vehicle that came along you gave the instruction to attack, to attack. Is that correct?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Could you see the, who the occupants were in that vehicle from where you were positioned?

MR DOLO: Not properly.

MR PRIOR: What was obscuring your view?

MR DOLO: I won't be sure when I saw the car.

MR PRIOR: Where they to far away from you?

MR DOLO: They were in the curve, the car would be approaching us from the curve.

MR PRIOR: And the, sorry, who was the lookout?

MR DOLO: It was Kleintjie.

MR PRIOR: Was he on the hard ground, was he on a hill somewhere?

MR DOLO: He was just next to the road.

MR PRIOR: And where were you people, were you not next to the road?

MR DOLO: We were also next to the road, but far away from him, a distance for him.

MR PRIOR: So you were ahead of him?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Or behind, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Can you just estimate the distance for us, how far was he from you?

MR DOLO: I say around a distance of about, hundred meters.

MR LAX: Same as a soccer ground?

MR DOLO: Yes, that would be a hundred meters of ground.

MR PRIOR: So when he waved his hat in the air as you had the pre-arranged signal, you knew that this was now the target?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Were you surprised to see that Mr Schroeder, I think he was the driver at that stage, he was a coloured man?

MR DOLO: I learned that when I arrived Thursday at Goedemoed from one of the wardens there, who was also a coloured person that's what he told me. All along I didn't know.

MR PRIOR: Well, presumably Kleintjie can tell us, our co-applicant, can tell us what he saw, what you, you acting on his signal.

MR DOLO: That's it.

MR PRIOR: You didn't allow that vehicle to came close enough for you to make a positive identification?

MR DOLO: That was not part of the plan.

MR PRIOR: If you had seen this was a Coloured man driving the vehicle would you have attacked it?

MR DOLO: It is difficult to say.

MR PRIOR: Why is it difficult? Your plan was to attack white people, if you saw a Coloured man there who is clearly not white would you have still shot that vehicle?

MR DOLO: We have two kinds of Coloureds, so called Coloureds, after all. We have Coloureds who look like me, we have Coloureds who look like you.

MR PRIOR: Would you kill the Coloureds who look like me?

MR DOLO: If the ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Answer the question.

MR DOLO: As the signal was given and it was difficult to notice the person, but he, how differ is he from you?

MR PRIOR: Please answer my question. Would you shoot a Coloured person that looked like me, that was your words?

MR DOLO: In that incident, as it happened, yes.

MR PRIOR: And someone that looked like you, a Coloured person, would you not shoot that person?

MR DOLO: I don't think so.

MR LAX: Is it not so that it wouldn't have made any difference, if you saw the signal you would have shot anyway, regardless what was in the vehicle, because you would not have had time to decide whether to shoot or not?

MR DOLO: We would be in the position to see the occupants, as they would be closer to us, so if they were black people I would be in a position to see them.

MR LAX: So that if Kleintjie had made a mistake, you could still countermand it, is that what you're saying?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct that Kleintjie only gave you the signal that a vehicle was approaching?

MR DOLO: And the signal was also for the occupants of the car.

MR LAX: The signal was that if a vehicle with white occupants approach, they would shoot. That was the signal.

MR PRIOR: So you would not be in a position to see who the occupants were before you shot?

MR DOLO: Repeat again.

MR PRIOR: You were not in a position to see who the occupants were before you opened fire.

MR DOLO: Yes, I wont be in a, I was not in a position.

MR PRIOR: That vehicle came to a stop, is it correct, and the occupants got out. The female and the driver.

MR DOLO: It passed through us as it was speeding. Then from a distance as we were shooting to it, then it stopped.

MR PRIOR: Alright, you ran up to that vehicle.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Were you shooting all the time?

MR DOLO: Yes, from the car.

MR PRIOR: And then who, the female person got out. We know that was Mrs Brummer, and Mr Schroeder, the driver, he also got out of the bakkie. Is that correct?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Then you could see he was a Coloured man?

MR DOLO: No.

MR PRIOR: But you could see it was a female, a white female?

MR DOLO: They were from a distance, I say, I would say more than hundred metres.

MR PRIOR: But you were chasing them all the time.

MR DOLO: The time I was shooting them I have to stopped so that I could aim.

MR PRIOR: And they were running away?

MR DOLO: They were running away.

MR PRIOR: They weren't posing any threat to you?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: I would just like to clarify something. Mr Prior has been asking you about Mr Schroeder and Mrs Brummer. Were they the only two people who got out?

MR DOLO: I could not see. The time when they were stopping the car, there was this approaching car. It was not, when it stopped, the approaching car it was not far from them, where they stopped. So that's how they were able to get to the second car.

CHAIRPERSON: But how many of them were there that got out?

MR DOLO: When we reached the car that they abandoned there was no one inside it.

CHAIRPERSON: How many got out. It's an easy question.

MR DOLO: All the person were on the car?

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, how many were there?

MR DOLO: I don't know how many were there.

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, one was the woman who was dead in the other vehicle, right? One was the man who was shot, left lying on the road, right?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Then there was another man who you later passed as he was going along the road.

MR DOLO: Then I will say maybe, I would take it ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is that no so ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: That there were three.

CHAIRPERSON: Don't you know how many people got out of the car you were shooting at?

MR DOLO: I, I only ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't you pay attention?

MR DOLO: The time they were stopping the car and they were getting out of it, there was this approaching car which was not far from them and it stopped for them, and they get inside that car.

CHAIRPERSON: But only one of them got into that car, didn't they?

MR DOLO: Sorry?

CHAIRPERSON: Only one of them got into the approaching car, didn't they?

MR DOLO: All of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Who of them got into the approaching car?

MR DOLO: I think so.

MR PRIOR: Couldn't you see the driver of that car was an African person?

MR DOLO: From their position, from their position, I was not able.

MR PRIOR: Well then how did you know you were shooting at which people if you couldn't see, even recognise the difference between a white person and a black person?

MR DOLO: I trusted my Comrade who gave me the signal.

MR PRIOR: So then to go back to my previous ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: In passing through me I noticed that they were white occupants inside the car.

MR PRIOR: Okay, let's leave it, it's irrelevant. So when that vehicle passed your position, you saw that there were white people in the vehicle?

MR DOLO: Yes. I take it they were white people, those were inside it.

MR PRIOR: You just accepted they were white?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You see, we know Mr James Tsemane was a black man, I mean he stopped to assist these people who you were intent on killing there.

MR DOLO: That was not the car that passed us.

MR PRIOR: Now the vehicle that stopped to assist the female person, Mrs Brummer, running away and Mr Schroeder, presumably.

MR DOLO: We learned that when we approached the car and we passed through it, that one of the dead person was a African one.

MR PRIOR: Yes, but he came from the opposite, he came from Sterkspruit?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: He had to stop.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: The female got into the vehicle. Did you see that?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: That wasn't a taxi, it was a bakkie, it was an open bakkie, sorry, with a canopy. If you look at the photographs, bundle "B", page 23 and 24, 23 and 24, Mr Chairman. But maybe the situation needs clarification.

The first vehicle, the vehicle that you attacked, having received the signal from you co-applicant, Kleintjie, came to a standstill, is that right?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: The occupants then got out and ran away.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You followed after them, shooting at them?

MR DOLO: They went to another car.

MR PRIOR: We getting there. You followed after the shooting?

MR DOLO: As they were running, we didn't shoot them. We were chasing them.

MR PRIOR: I see. A vehicle then approached from Sterkspruit.

MR DOLO: It was not far from them.

MR PRIOR: Is that the vehicle we see on photograph, at page 23?

MR DOLO: I think it's the one.

MR PRIOR: A bakkie.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: A pick-up.

MR DOLO: I think it's the one.

MR PRIOR: That vehicle then stopped and you say all, both people got into the vehicle?

MR DOLO: I think so.

MR PRIOR: I want to suggest to you only Mrs Brummer got into the vehicle.

MR DOLO: Okay.

MR PRIOR: And I'll tell you later, a little, a little while later, I'll tell you why a little later. That vehicle then turned around, is that right? It did a U-turn and then went towards Sterkspruit?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And you shot at that vehicle?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: That's the vehicle that Mr Tsemane was driving?

MR DOLO: Okay.

MR PRIOR: That vehicle then went off the road and then went down the bank, is that correct? At the bridge, is that right? And you say you went up to that vehicle and saw the driver was dead and the female was dead?

MR DOLO: Yes, I presume.

MR PRIOR: You never went close, you looked from the road?

MR DOLO: Yes, I presume that they were dead.

MR PRIOR: You never went down to the vehicle?

MR DOLO: I was in the position to see.

MR PRIOR: From the road way, from the bridge?

MR DOLO: Just next to the bridge and as I'm passing through the bridge.

MR PRIOR: Yes, you never climbed of the bridge and went down to where the vehicle was lying?

MR DOLO: Yes, yes.

MR PRIOR: And then you saw Mr Schroeder in the road?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And was he still alive at that stage?

MR DOLO: I couldn't say.

MR PRIOR: Well why not? Was he breathing?

MR DOLO: I didn't listen to his pulse.

MR PRIOR: But when you went up to him, was he lying on his face, on his back or what?

MR DOLO: I think he was having full of blood in his face.

MR PRIOR: And was he struggling, was he moving, was he quiet?

MR DOLO: He was motionless.

MR PRIOR: Who had shot him just before that? Had anybody shot him?

MR DOLO: I think it was Scorpion.

MR PRIOR: So, was that before you, was that after you had observed the vehicle that had gone off the road, you've said you presumed they were dead, the two occupants of that vehicle.

MR DOLO: What I say?

MR PRIOR: You said you observed from the road way, from the bridge you could see that the people inside the bakkie that went of the road, that was Mrs Brummer and Mr Tsemane, they were dead.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You then paid attention to the other person, that's Mr Schroeder, Schroeder. I'm just giving them names, the man lying on the tar, the surface?

MR DOLO: He not so closely to the car.

MR PRIOR: Okay, but you then went to him?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And you say he'd already been shot by Scorpion?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Had you heard that shots?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Have you seen where Scorpion was shooting?

MR DOLO: I was not forget the immediate stage.

MR PRIOR: Was that, that person running away as well?

MR DOLO: Which one?

MR PRIOR: The man you eventually shot in the back of the head.

MR DOLO: Was he running away?

MR PRIOR: Yes.

MR DOLO: The time they were shooting him?

MR PRIOR: Yes.

MR DOLO: Yes, they were chasing him.

MR PRIOR: And shooting him in the back?

MR DOLO: They were chasing him, I don't know where they shoot him.

MR PRIOR: So, when you then paid attention after you had looked at the bakkie you went to where Scorpion was, and the others presumably, and the man lying on the ground.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Why did you then put your rifle at the back of his head?

MR DOLO: I was making sure that he was dead.

MR PRIOR: Because he was still living?

MR DOLO: I don't know.

MR PRIOR: Then why was it necessary to shoot him in the head if he was dead?

MR DOLO: I was making sure.

MR PRIOR: Was that with a R4 rifle?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And as you put it you blew his head, is that right?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And then what did you do?

MR DOLO: I call on my Comrades.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, was this now the attack was over, this was, did you regard the attack as being successful?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Now you had to retreat?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Why didn't you simply as you did in your training, on the two previous occasions, simply run away or move away on foot?

MR DOLO: We decided to use the car.

MR PRIOR: You decided to obtain a vehicle by force, is that right?

MR DOLO: Not by force.

MR PRIOR: And that when the teachers came on the scene?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And there was dead bodies lying on the roadway, and you were with fire-arms, and then you obtained their vehicle and you shot at the other person in the 4 X 4?

MR DOLO: I didn't shot at the person.

MR PRIOR: But ordered that he be shot at?

MR DOLO: I ordered.

MR PRIOR: And you could see he was, what, a white man, black man ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: He was a white person.

MR PRIOR: And why was he to be shot?

MR DOLO: Because he was a white person.

MR PRIOR: Not because he was blocking your way?

MR DOLO: Not because he was blocking our way.

MR PRIOR: But, you never pursued him?

MR DOLO: We never pursued him.

MR PRIOR: Why not?

MR DOLO: I decided not to pursue him.

MR PRIOR: Why not, he was your target?

MR DOLO: It was the question of time.

MR PRIOR: But you were going in the same direction?

MR DOLO: He reversed his car so we going the same direction.

MR PRIOR: You could have followed him quite easily and killed him, is that right?

MR DOLO: That was not part of the plan. I decided that we withdraw.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior you will be some time, will you?

MR PRIOR: ...(indistinct) I need to canvas, I need to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, and we will be sitting, we started very late today. We will be sitting late, what time?

MR PRIOR: I'm in the hands of the Committee, up to the translators as well, the jail has no problem.

CHAIRPERSON: The jail has no problems, then I think we should take a short adjournment now. The translators have been working very hard for a couple of hours or more and we will take a short adjournment of 15 minutes, no longer than 15 minutes and then we'll then carry on till we reach a suitable stage.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman, will you all please rise.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: For the information of members of the public we intend to adjourn at 17h00 this afternoon and to commence at 09h00 tomorrow morning.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Dolo, I refer to paragraph 11 of your affidavit, page 3 of bundle "B". You said: "The other occupants were not there." That's after you had found the driver you say of the taxi, and a white woman dead. "Scorpion saw them and he gave chase and he shot one, and I shot him. The other one disappeared."

MR DOLO: So what do you want to know?

MR PRIOR: Are you saying there were four people that were initially travelling, sorry, there were four people that had been attacked on that occasion?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And was the fourth person the person you tried to run down?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: That you referred to in paragraph 12?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Well, why didn't you simply shoot him?

MR DOLO: I was not having a gun.

MR PRIOR: Well, you had your R4? Why did Kleintjie shoot him?

MR DOLO: I tried to run on him and I stated in my affidavit.

MR PRIOR: He was on the road?

MR DOLO: He was not on the road, he was just next to the road.

MR PRIOR: And you, well, he was running alongside the road.

MR DOLO: He was not running alongside the road.

MR PRIOR: What was he doing?

MR DOLO: He was making a hiking.

MR PRIOR: Was this someone else? You see, on our information, Mr Schroeder and Mrs Brummer were travelling from Lady Grey to Sterkspruit. They were shot at, they left their vehicle. Mr Tsemane came along and picked up Mrs Brummer, leaving Mr Schroeder behind. You then shot at that vehicle, Mr Tsemane's vehicle which then left the road and went down off the bridge. There was no fourth person.

MR DOLO: There was a fourth person.

MR PRIOR: Was he just someone else that was just hitchhiking along that piece of road?

MR DOLO: There was a white person as we were approaching Herschel who was making a hike, hiking through us.

MR PRIOR: Oh, I see, this was on, this was someone who wasn't in the bakkie?

MR DOLO: I'm not sure about that.

MR PRIOR: But he was some distance away from where the bakkie had left the road?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: I see.

ADV SANDI: Mr Prior, sorry, Mr Dolo, I understand amongst many people this is a very common way of speaking when a person is speaking to show him that you are listening and you are following him and you just keep on saying "yes, yes, yes". I think you can end up running into problems with that. Do you hear what I am saying to you?

MR DOLO: Yes, I understand.

MR PRIOR: Mr Dolo, I just need clarity, because the situation might become confusing. So this person that you refer to in paragraph 12 was a white person hitchhiking, but he was a distance away from where the attack had taken place?

MR DOLO: That's what it is.

MR PRIOR: Well, and he wasn't injured. You simply tried to run him down, and he moved away or ran off and you left him.

MR DOLO: Yes, that's it.

CHAIRPERSON: Could I just, I may have originally been responsible for this. Was this the fourth or the third person, Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: I understand from the witness now there was a fourth person.

CHAIRPERSON: Why? It says there was Mrs Brummer, there was Schroeder who was shot by the two of them, and the other person disappeared. Where does the fourth one come in? If you look at paragraph 11 of his affidavit.

MR PRIOR: In paragraph 10 he says: :We found the driver of the taxi and a white woman dead"

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so that's one occupant.

MR PRIOR: It's two.

CHAIRPERSON: The driver of the taxi is the person who picked her up. It's not the person ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: We are talking about people on the scene, Mr Chairman, at this stage.

CHAIRPERSON: I thought you were talking about who came out of the bakkie.

MR PRIOR: It says the other occupants were not there, occupants refers to two others.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Scorpion gave chase, shot one, the other one disappeared.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, the one who got shot was Schroeder.

MR PRIOR: So, the white man hiking, sorry I was under the impression that the white man hiking was, was ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Schroeder.

MR LAX: It could be the third, it could also be someone else, we don't actually know what happened to that person, sorry. What I'm trying to say in order to clarify this is it doesn't help to take it any further. He doesn't know who this person is, the applicant doesn't know this. He assumed it might be that person that ran away, but it could just as easily have been anyone else hiking on the road.

MR DOLO: Yes, that's it.

MR PRIOR: I, I understand now, and I accept that, I don't pursue the matter.

CHAIRPERSON: It seems to me extremely improbable, but if it was another passenger in the bakkie who was hiking along and had escaped, that he didn't go to the Police and make a full report to them.

MR PRIOR: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. I just need you to describe in a little more detail how you shot Mr Schroeder, and I think we must accept that it is Mr Schroeder that you shot in the back of the head. Could you maybe just describe to the Committee what, what happened there?

MR DOLO: As I was approaching him, I find him to be, he was lying there on the road and I think his head was in my direction and when I come to him and he was motionless, and I took the rifle with using my right hand side and I shoot him on the head.

MR PRIOR: You see, why I ask you that, Mr Dolo, is that at page 31, it's not a very clear copy, it's the post mortem report on Mr Schroeder, and in (v) the pathologist recorded that death had occurred, sorry, that the cause of death was, "where the wounds passing from the neck into brain", that looks like causing,

MR LAX: "Causing severe brain damage"

MR PRIOR: "Caused death." Understand what I'm putting to you?

MR DOLO: Yes, I understand.

MR PRIOR: So all the other injuries were there on the body, the shot wherever he, we know he was shot elsewhere, but it seems that the cause of death must have been your gunshot as you say, on the back of the neck here, in the head, which penetrated his brain.

MR DOLO: That may be so.

MR PRIOR: Do you accept that?

MR DOLO: I don't have any problem with that.

MR PRIOR: That, that it wasn't a question of him being dead already, or you not being sure.

MR DOLO: I just thought it that to finish ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Finish him off?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Prior, there are two wounds here that you can see. One goes straight through the neck, he's not sure, but he says, if you look at page 35, he says "wound through the neck" and he points to the one that goes through the neck.

MR PRIOR: Yes.

MR LAX: There's another one that passes through into the back and he points to this one that goes into the brain. You see that?

MR PRIOR: Yes, I see that.

MR LAX: Different injury.

MR PRIOR: Yes.

MR LAX: So there were probably a number of injuries.

MR PRIOR: Okay. Is there any reason why you did not go down to the vehicle that had left the road?

MR DOLO: I finded that there is no need.

MR PRIOR: But from you vantage point you said you could see that the driver was dead. That you say in your affidavit.

MR DOLO: I presume.

MR PRIOR: No, you said in paragraph 10 "when we arrived at the bridge, we found the driver of the taxi and a white woman dead".

MR DOLO: I'm not a doctor. I just presumed that they were dead.

MR PRIOR: But you were close enough to see the driver, who the driver was.

MR DOLO: Not so enough.

MR PRIOR: Did you see that he was a black person?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And? Was that also part of the plan?

MR DOLO: As I stated it that it was not part of the plan.

MR PRIOR: Was it just his bad luck that he was there on that day?

MR DOLO: It was his bad luck day.

MR PRIOR: And it would seem on your version and what we know that this gentleman Mr James Tsemane risked his life as he, well then, gave his life, to assist people who you were attacking?

MR DOLO: So what is your question?

MR PRIOR: Was that not the reason why you killed him, is because he was assisting your target?

MR DOLO: The time he was making the U-turn I was in the position not to notice that he was a black person or what.

MR PRIOR: You said it in your affidavit it was a taxi. How could you have made that mistake.

MR DOLO: I, a taxi in this case, I didn't mean to the kombi.

MR PRIOR: What did you mean?

MR DOLO: I mean a car, just a ordinary car.

ADV SANDI: Why do you call it a taxi then?

MR PRIOR: And not a bakkie?

MR DOLO: I take it maybe he was using it as a, as a taxi as he helped those people.

ADV SANDI: What was your attitude to him trying to help the people you had shot

MR DOLO: Which one?

ADV SANDI: The black man Mr Prior has referred to.

MR DOLO: The time of the shooting I was not in the position to see him. I was not in a position to see him, that I was shooting at one of the occupants was a black person.

CHAIRPERSON: I don't care whether you say him or not, what was your attitude towards the driver of this vehicle who was picking up the people you were attacking?

MR DOLO: After I saw that it was a African person, then I feel pity for him.

ADV SANDI: Did you, did you wish anyone to try and help these people you had shot?

MR DOLO: It was not in my mind at that stage. I was not think about that, that someone come and help them. I didn't have any thoughts about that, whether I wish or I don't wish.

ADV SANDI: Yes, but if one puts it to you that he was shot because he was assisting these people, would you dispute that?

MR DOLO: I would say I was shooting at the car to kill the white people who were inside the car. That there was also an African person that was come later to my knowledge.

MR LAX: So in essence you were making sure these people you attacked did not get away?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR LAX: And if someone appears to be picking them up you were going to stop them no matter what?

MR DOLO: I was trying to kill the white occupants who was inside the car.

MR LAX: Yes, but whether it was a blue, black, brown or yellow person in that car would have made no difference to you?

MR DOLO: You mean the driver of the car?

MR LAX: Yes, would you have held your fire if you knew that was a black person?

MR DOLO: I think so.

MR LAX: And you would let the whites get away?

MR DOLO: I would have change, maybe we would try, as I was shooting at the car I concentrated on the tyres of the car. But it happened then that I, the driver of the car was get hurt.

MR PRIOR: Well you used a lethal weapon, a high powered rifle, a military rifle, an R4 that shoots a high explosive bullet at a vehicle that was very close to you?

MR DOLO: It was not very close.

MR PRIOR: Well estimate for us. When you were shooting at Mr Tsemane leaving, who had just picked up Mrs Brummer and they had done a U-turn. How far was that vehicle from you?

MR DOLO: I'll take it to be ± 100 m, meters.

MR PRIOR: Isn't the truth of it, Mr Dolo, that you just didn't worry who you killed on that day?

MR DOLO: That is not the truth.

MR PRIOR: And you saw this white woman who was now getting away from you, and that was you actually shot at the vehicle to stop her getting away?

MR DOLO: I learn about that it was a white woman when I saw, I was passing her to the bridge that one of the occupants was a white woman.

MR PRIOR: And you were intent on killing her?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Because that was part of your instruction and your plan and your objective?

MR DOLO: Yes, that ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: But now she was getting away, you hadn't injured her, she had run out of the vehicle, that had stopped, she got picked up by the second vehicle and now she was getting away?

MR DOLO: The time she was running out of his car to the coming car, out of her car to the approaching car, I didn't shoot. We tried to chase them.

MR PRIOR: Why not?

MR DOLO: We were chasing. We thought we would be able to reach them if they are out of the car.

MR PRIOR: So you weren't worried that she would escape at that stage?

MR DOLO: Then when they get inside the car then it was obvious that we not going to be able to reach them.

MR PRIOR: So in other words she was going to escape now?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And that's why you stopped, you stopped the vehicle from leaving?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And then to deal with, if they were living you would have killed them then?

MR DOLO: Yes. That was the aim.

MR PRIOR: So you knew she was white before you saw her from the bridge in the car?

MR DOLO: From the signal I get from my ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Yes.

MR DOLO: Trusted Comrade.

MR PRIOR: Don't tell us you only saw she was white when you looked down from the bridge.

MR DOLO: I, saw her on the bridge she, she was a female. When the car was passing us I was ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: The question wasn't that she was a female, Mr Dolo. The question was that she was white.

MR DOLO: That, yes I knew ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: And you said well I only saw whether she was white when I looked from the bridge.

MR DOLO: No, I didn't say so.

MR PRIOR: Yes, you did your will say that the transcript will show that, but anyway let's leave it and move on. I just need to ask you this question, sorry I'll pass on this one, it's more argument than anything, Mr Chairman. You seem to have simply whatever vehicle arrived on the scene, just given instructions to your Comrades or yourself simply to have opened fire, except on the schoolteachers?

MR DOLO: Because they were African people.

MR PRIOR: From that do I understand that it, it didn't even concern you whether people who were not African people, black people, whether they opposed the government or not, the apartheid government, it didn't make any difference to you? They would be killed simply because of the colour of their skin?

MR DOLO: Here in South Africa we have two kinds of people at that stage. We have the African people and the so- called Coloureds, the Indians and the blacks people, were all those people African people. Then the other group was the Settlers of which were the targets.

MR PRIOR: I'm just trying to understand the tragedy of, that you created on that day, because we don't know that Mrs Brummer we understand worked, had worked in Sterkspruit, which was predominantly a black area, is that right? She worked in a shop there? And that she would travel from Lady Grey to Sterkspruit virtually on a daily basis. Let me just find out, Sterkspruit is a black area?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: And she, that was her work, she went to work in that area to serve that community?

MR DOLO: To enrich herself.

MR PRIOR: Well she worked there, we don't know how wealthy she got.

CHAIRPERSON: She worked in a shop selling things there, I don't think you can by analogy say that is to serve the community.

MR PRIOR: Well the shop was there for the benefit for the community.

MR DOLO: The shop there to enrich themself.

MR PRIOR: Well then with respect the people had to buy furniture or had to use furniture, I don't know. I leave that point, Mr Chairman.

MR LAX: Mr Prior, it's a matter for argument. At the end of the day all black, all white people were the enemy as far as he's concerned, that, that's the end of it.

MR PRIOR: Thank you. I don't have any further questions. I need to indicate to the Committee that the family wish to have an opportunity via the elder brother, or the eldest son of the deceased to put questions to the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: Which family?

MR PRIOR: The victim's family.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well there was at least three victims.

MR PRIOR: Mr Tsemane's family. I said the eldest son of Mr Tsemane. Mr Chairman, I understand that Mr Daniel Tsemane has some questions and he also indicated that the last question, if that could be asked by one of the other sons. There's a particular sense to it, I don't know.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, carry on.

MR D TSEMANE: Thank you Mr Chair. My name is Daniel Tsemane. I'm from Sterkspruit. I want to hear from the applicant where exactly in Jozanna's Hoek where they based. The family that host them in Jozanna.

MR DOLO: Who are you asking, me? Whom are you asking?

MR PRIOR: You, Mr Dolo. Who do you think he's asking questions to?

MR DOLO: I think it is mentioned in my affidavits where ...(intervention)

MR D TSEMANE: Well, answer him, he hasn't read you affidavit. Just answer him. You don't need to get aggro with him, just answer him.

MR DOLO: I stayed at Jozanna's Hoek.

MR PRIOR: Yes, he said with which family did you stay at Jozanna's Hoek?

MR DOLO: I forget the person who owned the house. I take it, my Comrade would be of help in this one.

MR D TSEMANE: I would be pleased to hear the exact family where you were, where you were staying with. Then the other question is, when you, when you arrived from your operation, how did that family who host you, feel or react when they hear, when they hear that Mr Tsemane was no more alive?

MR DOLO: The family you are talking about, we, was not informed of anything of what we are involved in it. After ...(indistinct) particular family, the house was our base. The people that were inside the house, it were us, APLA cadres, who occupied the house.

MR D TSEMANE: Mr Dolo, I think you are not the person who's staying in Jozanna. In Jozanna the house that you were staying in it, it was belonging to the other family whose in Jozanna.

MR DOLO: If there was such, or if there is such a person who owns the house he was not living with us at that stage. The house was under our own control. We used it as our house.

MR D TSEMANE: Thank you Mr Dolo, but as you said, your Comrade will assist you with the name of that family. I would be pleased to hear that, thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Mr Dolo, are you saying you were the only people who occupied this house at that time?

MR DOLO: The house was under our control.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you answer the question. Were you the only people who occupied the house at that time?

MR DOLO: There was one Comrade, whom I believed later that he was once the owner of the house, or, after we left he was the owner of the house.

ADV SANDI: Would I be correct to say that, from this answer you have just given me, you mean to say that there was no other person there who was not part of your group.

MR DOLO: Except the person I have mentioned, the owner of the house.

ADV SANDI: The house was used specifically for housing APLA members?

MR DOLO: At that stage it was specifically for, it was our base.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR DOLO: At that stage it was specifically for, it was our base.

MR TSEMANE: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR D TSEMANE: Through you, Mr Chairperson, through you, Mr Chairperson, Mr Dolo ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Please be quiet.

MR D TSEMANE: Mr Dolo, I don't understand you properly. You say the house was under control, except for the person who thereafter appeared to be the owner. Was that person staying with you at the time you were staying in that house?

MR DOLO: He was not sleeping at that house.

MR D TSEMANE: Where was he sleeping?

MR DOLO: I don't know where he was sleeping.

MR D TSEMANE: Did he frequently come to the house?

MR DOLO: At some other times he'll come.

MR D TSEMANE: Thank you.

MR L TSEMANE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I am Leshonolo from the Tsemane family. I just want to know from the applicant who exactly was the owner of that house, because he claims that that owner frequently came to see him, and definitely you cannot stay with someone who doesn't, who you do not know.

MR DOLO: To be of help to you, I take it you understand, you know where Jozanna is. Do you?

MR L TSEMANE: Yes I do.

MR DOLO: Do you know the school there at Jozanna?

MR L TSEMANE: Yes.

MR DOLO: The High School which is there at Jozanna?

MR L TSEMANE: Yes.

MR DOLO: The house I am talking about, it's next to the, to the

school, it occupies the corner.

MR L TSEMANE: Do you mind disclosing the name please, of the owner.

MR DOLO: I don't know the name of the person, the owner of the house.

MR L TSEMANE: I suppose you were taken there by some people. Possibly people who are based in Sterkspruit. Can you tell us who they were, or who they are?

MR DOLO: Repeat the question.

MR L TSEMANE: I am sure, like you said, you only came to the Sterkspruit at around July 1992. That means, well then it means that you did not know the area. So definitely someone must have taken you up to Jozanna.

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR L TSEMANE: To the area as it were, the area in question. Do you mind telling us who actually showed you to the place?

MR DOLO: Yes, it was Phila.

MR L TSEMANE: Is, okay, is Phila, where does he stay? Is he from around?

MR DOLO: You mean now?

MR L TSEMANE: Is he a person from Sterkspruit, that's my question?

MR DOLO: He was also an APLA Cadre.

MR L TSEMANE: And you say, you said initially, you do not know his real name.

MR DOLO: The other name I gave the house, was of Pawa.

MR L TSEMANE: Pawa, okay. And you are saying you were sent by Sebelo Palma and Mphahlele. I'm sure they do not know the place, I mean they don't know Sterkspruit. Some people might have identified places for you. People who took you around to show these are target places and things like those. Can't, won't it be fair for you to please tell us who those people were?

MR DOLO: I, in my affidavits, I mentioned that I was the Commander in charge of the operations and the intelligence work in charge in collecting information about the targets that have to be attacked, and the people who were involved in that were those who were my subordinates.

MR L TSEMANE: Who are understandably also not from Sterkspruit. You mean, I mean the people you were together with are not from the area, from Sterkspruit as it were.

MR DOLO: Some I find them there, some knew the area more that I.

MR L TSEMANE: Thank you. My second last question, how do you feel, what do you say after having, after having killed my father, to be exact?

MR DOLO: It worried me a lot. I ...(intervention)

MR L TSEMANE: I'm asking this question because you are some kind, you displayed some kind of pride in all you were doing, you didn't look like a person who was exactly coming to ask for amnesty. Instead you were proud here, not feeling sorry for all the filthy things, deeds or acts you did. Thank you.

MR DOLO: I cam here to talk about what happened and to give the house what happened. The truth about it.

MR L TSEMANE: Thanks, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Mr Dolo, did you say a moment ago, the owner of this house was not aware of what you gentlemen ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: I was not reporting, I was not reporting to him.

MR PRIOR: Well, because you were not reporting to him doesn't mean he wasn't aware of what you were doing. That's a very big, there's a huge difference in meaning, if you hear me?

MR DOLO: He was aware that we are APLA cadres.

CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Chairperson. Mr Dolo, you said you were under the impression that the, the vehicle picking up the people, was a taxi. Did you make that impression at that time as that the vehicle was picking up the people? The vehicle which has stopped to pick up the lady there?

MR DOLO: I'm not sure. Maybe at that stage or after that. I'm not sure.

ADV SANDI: Right. I, may I ask you, may I put it to you that normally taxi's are owned by black people.

MR DOLO: It was not a taxi as normally known as a taxi.

ADV SANDI: Yes.

MR DOLO: As it was a small car.

ADV SANDI: But I understood you saying the fact that it was picking up those people, you were under the impression that it was a taxi. Then, my question is normally taxi's are driven by black people. Would you agree with me?

MR DOLO: I will agree with you.

ADV SANDI: Therefore you would be, you would know that the person driving that, the vehicle was a black person, an African, to use your word. What do you say about that?

MR DOLO: At that stage I was not aware that it was an African, but normally taxi's are driven by African people. The big ones, the Kombi, taxi's.

ADV SANDI: No further questions, Mr Chairperson.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Chairperson.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR: These, these ladies that you stopped in this vehicle, that you then "borrowed" as you put it, did you not tell them that you were part of APLA, and that you were borrowing their vehicle as part of your operation?

MR DOLO: I don't recall what I said in relation to that that I

was an APLA cadre.

MR PRIOR: You see, we've from countless other people who are members of APLA, who all say that when they took things from African people, they tried to make them understand what they were doing and why they needed the vehicle. They said it was common practice to tell those people that "don't worry, we're part of APLA, we're not going to destroy your vehicle. You will get it back". They would even try and get phone numbers and arrange to leave it with them, and tell them where they would leave it.

MR DOLO: I might have said so, because I promised her that they would find their car.

MR PRIOR: Where did you tell them they would find their car?

MR DOLO: Where, you mean where they would find their car?

MR PRIOR: Yes, at what place would they have found their car?

MR DOLO: At Sterkspruit. I didn't specify where specifically.

MR PRIOR: Well, it's quite a big area. Where, surely you ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: It's not so big, Sterkspruit. It's a small town, Sterkspruit.

MR PRIOR: Oh, in the town.

MR DOLO: No, I don't specifically mean the town. I mean the whole area of Sterkspruit, it's not so big.

MR PRIOR: Well it's about 40/50 km² at least.

MR DOLO: That is not a big thing, 40.

MR PRIOR: How would someone know where to find their vehicle in that area if you left it in a forest or you left it somewhere else? How would she know where to find it?

MR DOLO: It's a take them, those people to be very concerned about their neighbours and they will report whatever happened in their neighbours. So, if I left the car maybe next to any house, they found that there are not occupants inside the house. Then the authorities next to them would be notified about that, and in that way they will receive their car.

MR PRIOR: Now, you never actually got to Sterkspruit, you ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: The car was ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: The car ran, the car ran out of petrol along the way.

MR DOLO: We never reached the town of Sterkspruit.

MR PRIOR: Yes. So what effort did you make to get hold of those people and tell them, "listen, your car is somewhere here or there, or anywhere"?

MR DOLO: Where we left it we take it they will reach it or some way of help will reach it.

MR PRIOR: The fact is you made no effort to really do that, did you?

MR DOLO: I never made any effort.

ADV SANDI: Why did you not make any effort to do that, Mr Dolo?

MR DOLO: We have to travel those few kilometres to reach our base and we have to keep on hiding, as generally the house was known to be an APLA house, and we expected that maybe if we travel around and we where known around in our area, so it will attracted the Police that and that would lead to our arrest.

ADV SANDI: You were running away from being apprehended from the Police?

MR DOLO: You may say so.

MR PRIOR: That's it, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you've told us about the first car that came and the signal you were given and that it sped past you. Do you remember telling us that?

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you then opened fire. The car came to a stop, and the people got out and another car came.

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: And you then traced the people.

MR DOLO: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you examine this car?

MR DOLO: Which one?

CHAIRPERSON: The first car.

MR DOLO: Myself, I never examined it.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not? There was a car abandoned near you. Why didn't you examine it?

MR DOLO: What for?

CHAIRPERSON: To use to get away.

MR DOLO: We were still chasing people.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but after that you decided rather than examine this car, to steal somebody else's car.

MR DOLO: After we shot the second time we were far away from the first car, so there was no need to go back and take the second car.

CHAIRPERSON: You weren't that far away. You may have been a hundred yards away.

MR DOLO: Whether it was a hundred yards away, to us it was, it was not our destiny. We were going forward to Herschel.

CHAIRPERSON: But the car was there. Empty, available. You didn't have to steal from others and cause more people ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: It never comes to our mind that we have to go and take the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Why not?

MR DOLO: It never came to our mind. We were chasing those other people.

CHAIRPERSON: The people who owned that car where all dead.

MR DOLO: And we were far away from it at that stage.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a hundred paces away.

MR DOLO: It take it to be more than hundred.

CHAIRPERSON: And you never went to look at it? You never went to drive it away. You rather steal from four women?

MR DOLO: What I say?

CHAIRPERSON: You would rather steal another car from four women that walk these few yards. Have you forgotten you told us how you liked the exercise, how you marched 13 kilometres, or 16 kilometres there and 16 kilometres back?

MR DOLO: The whole exercise ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And now you say you couldn't be bothered to go and look at this car. Are you telling me the truth, Mr Dolo?

MR DOLO: I think you have to give me an allowance to answer you.

CHAIRPERSON: Well do. Why did you not go and examine the car that was sitting there?

MR DOLO: It was not part of our plan to go and take that car.

ADV SANDI: Mr Dolo, just look at paragraph 6 of your affidavit. The first sentence, are you there? Can you see it, Mr Dolo, paragraph 6.

MR DOLO: Must I read it?

ADV SANDI: Where it says, I will read it to you: "The target was identified by myself" Then you go on to tell how you went about organising weapons etceteras, etceteras. As I understand your evidence, you were implementing a policy of doing these things which you told us about. Am I correct?

MR DOLO: Yes, you are correct.

ADV SANDI: And the targets you identified where so identified in line with that policy or a mission of APLA to attack whites, am I correct understand this?

MR DOLO: Yes, you are correct.

ADV SANDI: Where you in any way part of the decision that whites in general should be attacked?

MR DOLO: That lie to the hands of the High Command to take such decisions.

ADV SANDI: All you had to do in that context was simply to implement or execute those orders as you understood them?

MR DOLO: Yes, that's correct.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Dolo.

CHAIRPERSON: It is now 16h52. I do not think it would be practical to start a new witness at this stage. We will not take the adjournment till 09h00 tomorrow morning, and I ask all interested parties please to try to be here and ready to start at 09h00.

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MR PRIOR: Good morning, Mr Chairman. It is the 21st of April 1998. The amnesty applications of Phila Martin Dolo and Thabiso James Makoala proceed, and I understand Mr Makoala will be called to testify.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I will call the applicant, Mr Makoala to testify. May he please be sworn in in Sesotho.

THABISO JAMES MAKOALA: (duly sworn states)

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman, for the sake of ...(indistinct) I will request Mr Makoala to confirm certain paragraphs of Mr Dolo's affidavit. Mr Makoala in paragraphs you have read in an affidavit of Mr Dolo.

MR PRIOR: Just for the records, seSotho is on channel 4. Can you hear us?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, I can hear you.

MR PRIOR: Thank you. Can you just speak up a little bit so that we, we, maybe Mr Mthembu can you just move that microphone a little bit closer to you please. That's fine. That's perfect. Perhaps you can try again, Mr Mthembu.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Makoala, is it correct that you have read the affidavit of Mr Dolo. Are you going to confirm certain paragraphs contained therein?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR MTHEMBU: I suppose that you confirm paragraphs 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12 of the referred affidavit of Mr Dolo?

MR MAKOALA: Yes I will do so.

MR MTHEMBU: But my question is whether you will confirm the said paragraphs, or not?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I know about them.

MR MTHEMBU: And you confirm them?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I do confirm that.

CHAIRPERSON: If we could also have, confirm something else. Where you the person known as Kleintjie? Kleintjie was referred to in those paragraphs.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I am Kleintjie.

MR MTHEMBU: Now, can one briefly to tell the Committee about your involvement in this incident. Just briefly.

MR MAKOALA: May you please repeat your question?

MR MTHEMBU: Briefly tell the Committee of your involvement or your roll in this incident.

MR MAKOALA: What happened on that day is we were four, it was me, Phila Dolo, Roger, and Scorpion. We hitchhiked on a truck. We knew that we were going to an operation, but we didn't know what type of operation was that. Phila Dolo was the only one who knew what kind of operation we were going to as he was our Commander. We hitchhiked until the area where the operation was to be carried out. That is where he explained to us what was about to happen. It was in the morning, very early and it was misty and you couldn't see perfectly who were in the car. And Mr Dolo as my Commander said that me, Kleintjie, I should move away from them something like a distance of hundred meters so that I could look out for white cars, people, white people in cars. And I took that order, and then a van approached which had three passengers in them. It were white people, and I gave a signal as I was ordered to. And from there I heard gunshots from where my Comrades were standing, and the car went out of the road. The people in the car alighted and they ran away, and I tried to get to my Comrades at that time. My Comrades were chasing those people by then, that is those white people who had come out of the car. There was another car approaching from the direction of Herschel. That car stopped and this white people got into that car. When that car tried to make a U-turn, Comrade Dolo gave us orders not to shoot and said that he was the only one who was going to shoot. When that car made a U-turn, Comrade Dolo started shooting and that car fell over the bridge. We went to investigate what happened with the car. When we got there we found a white female and she seemed dead, and there was another black person there, who were lying outside the car. And the black person also seemed dead. One of my Comrades, that Comrade Scorpion, saw the others who had survived and he chased them, and in his chase he fired some shots. And Comrade Phila also followed and fired shots. Comrade Phila also shot this person.

MR MTHEMBU: Is this now?

MR MAKOALA: That is the person who was being chased by Comrade Scorpion who had survived the incident.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he only shoot one of them?

MR MAKOALA: May you please repeat your question?

CHAIRPERSON: As I understand it, two people ran away. Did Scorpion only shoot one of them?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, he only shot one of them. That is the one he was chasing.

CHAIRPERSON: What happened to the other one?

MR MAKOALA: The other one, what I realise was that when we were about to withdraw and in the car he was the person who was hitchhiking along the road who Comrade Dolo wanted to run down with the car. I think that is the second person that survived the incident. After Comrade Dolo shot this other person he called us all, and when we got to him while we still gathering there another car appeared from the direction of Herschel and it had female in the, in it. The females I noticed were two who were sitting in the front. What happened is that Comrade Dolo stopped the car. Comrade Dolo had an R4 in his left hand and he stopped the car with his right hand. The car came to a stop and Comrade Dolo asked them to take us to Sterkspruit. The female who was driving said she couldn't drive because she was frightened at that time because of what had happened, because there was someone who was lying along the road. There was a car with wrecked windows and she suspected that something that had just happened, and then Comrade Dolo borrowed the car and he told the driver that she would find the car at Sterkspruit at Moleko's place. By that time there was a shop, a very big shop, which belonged to Moleko and that is where he told them they would find the car. And then Comrade Dolo got in the car and I also got into the car and the other Comrades got at the back of that car. Once we in the car, when Comrade Dolo lifted his head he saw a white 4 X 4 bakkie facing us. And then he gave me the R4 and ordered me to shoot that car. And then came out of the car, I shot at that other car. I can't remember how many bullets I used, and then that car reversed. It was white person in the car and he was alone and when he reversed, Comrade Dolo made a U-turn and we then drove off. Along the road we met another white person hitchhiking and Comrade Dolo tried to run that person with the car, and he realised that he would be wasting his time by doing that and we drove away. According to our agreement with the owners of the car, we agreed that we would leave the car at Sterkspruit, but we ran out of fuel. And when that happened we moved into another village, but before, that is before we arrived at Sterkspruit. I can't remember what the village place was, and we left the car near to a school, together with the keys inside and then we went on foot, and we went to our base that we were staying. When we arrived there we gave the guns to Comrade Peter, and thereafter Comrade Peter said that he was going to report, I didn't where he was going to report or who he was going to report to. I would end there.

MR MTHEMBU: To give your Comrades a signal, were you also armed or not, and if so, with what were you armed?

MR MAKOALA: I had a 38 special revolver on me.

MR MTHEMBU: Do you still today, do you still perceive Settlers or whites, to be still enemies or not?

MR MAKOALA: If at all they carry themself as the whites who supported the past regime I still view them as my enemies.

ADV SANDI: So, Mr Mthembu, can I ask the witness to repeat what he has just said. I did not pick it up.

MR MAKOALA: What I am trying to say is that the boss. If they still carry themselves as oppressors, I will still perceive them as my enemies. But if it at all they do what the Africans do, or behave like Africans, and are not oppressive, I will take them as Africans. I won't take them as my enemies any longer.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Makoala, is there anything that you would like to say to the victims and to the next of kin of the deceased people?

MR MAKOALA: In the first instance I would like to ask for forgiveness from Mr Tsemane's family about what happened. We didn't plan to kill that person, but because of the situation at that time he, he got involved in the attack. I would like to ask for forgiveness from Mr Tsemane's family. May they please forgive me because it was not our intention to kill black people. To the families of other victims I would like to say, in every war or struggle there are people that get injured, there are people that die, and there are people that get crumpled. I'm trying to explain to the family of these victims that what happened, happened because we were in a struggle, or in a war for freedom. I'll end up there.

MR MTHEMBU: Is there anything more you wish to add, or to tell the Committee about, or is that your testimony?

MR MAKOALA: No.

MR MTHEMBU: Thank you Mr Chairman, that is Mr Makoala's testimony.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: No questions, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Makoala when did you join APLA?

MR MAKOALA: I joined APLA in 1992.

MR PRIOR: When, can you tell us the month?

MR MAKOALA: It was right at the beginning of year.

MR PRIOR: Training in Umtata is that right?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: Did you learn how to use weapons, like the R4?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is true.

MR PRIOR: Who was your Commander in Umtata at that time?

MR MAKOALA: I wasn't in Umtata, I was in Jozanna. At that time.

MR PRIOR: Commander in Jozanna?

MR MAKOALA: My Commander at that time was, Comrade Phila, not Comrade Dolo it was Comrade Phila. His other name is Pawa or Comrade Uys. And those were the names I knew in, with.

MR PRIOR: Is he still alive?

MR MAKOALA: I'm not sure about that.

MR PRIOR: When did you last see him? That is now Phila Uys Pawa.

MR MAKOALA: If I remember when I last saw him in 1993. At Umtata.

MR PRIOR: Now, before the 19th of November 1992, that was the attack that you just described in your evidence, on how many other operations had you embarked, had you gone on?

MR MAKOALA: Are you asking me to explain about those operations, or should I tell you the number of operation I was involved in?

MR PRIOR: Idea of how many other operations, I don't, the purpose of the question is not to get details about it.

MR MAKOALA: There can be about three or four, if I remember well.

MR PRIOR: And we heard yesterday from Mr Dolo, your co-applicant, that on two previous occasions you were with him when he did a, a training operation at the same spot of the road between Sterkspruit and Lady Grey. Is that correct?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: Include those two training operations, in the form, in the previous operation that you were involved in?

MR MAKOALA: No, I don't include them, because I wasn't aware that, that they were operations.

MR PRIOR: Did you, on those two occasions, those training operations, can you just tell us briefly, give us a description of what occurred?

MR MAKOALA: What happened in the first instance is that, we were, I was still in the same unit with Comrade Dolo, Roger and Scorpion. Firstly we attacked a car, which had a white person in it and we attacked the car with molotovs. But that car was not damaged. We were only testing our molotovs.

CHAIRPERSON: With your molotovs?

MR MAKOALA: Yes we were intending to hit the car.

CHAIRPERSON: It was not an attack?

MR MAKOALA: My Commander, Comrade Dolo told me that, that was not an attack it was only an, a training.

CHAIRPERSON: You through molotovs which are, we all know are dangerous objects at a car with an intention to hit it. It would appear to me it amounts to attempted murder on your part. Why have you not asked amnesty for it?

MR MAKOALA: I only thought that was training, this molotovs were not quite up to standard, because they had, they were white, they didn't even explode.

CHAIRPERSON: Bad, weren't they?

MR MAKOALA: I don't know what, whether my Commander knew that those molotovs were dangerous or not.

CHAIRPERSON: That's about the second attack now? Now tell us about one attack where you threw molotovs at a car driven by a white person, what about the other attack?

MR MAKOALA: In the second attack I still in the very same unit with the Comrades I have mention it me, Comrade Dolo, Roger and Scorpion. We were there trying to attack a car again, but nothing happened to that car again. No molotovs were thrown, we were intending to hit that car with molotovs but it was travelling at very high speed and we couldn't do that.

CHAIRPERSON: ... (inaudible)

MR MAKOALA: No we didn't.

CHAIRPERSON: So you walked all that way, you saw a car going past you at very high speed and you walked home again. Is that what you are telling us?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: Chairperson through you, it is that all that happened at that second occasion?

MR MAKOALA: May you please repeat your question?

MR PRIOR: Is that all that happened on the second occasion?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so. Nothing further happened.

MR PRIOR: And on the first occasion did you only throw molotovs?

MR MAKOALA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You sure about that?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I'm sure about that, because I was present.

MR PRIOR: See, your Comrade told us yesterday that he fired some shots at one of those vehicles.

MR MAKOALA: My Comrade try to shoot, but his rifle jammed, so there was no shots fired, if I remember well.

MR PRIOR: He told us he fired, he didn't say anything about his rifle jamming.

MR MAKOALA: All I know that, that gun jammed and only molotovs were thrown to that car.

MR PRIOR: And the other car?

MR MAKOALA: Nothing happened to the second car.

MR PRIOR: Thank you. Mr Makoala did you prepare those molotovs, your unit that is, at Jozanna's? I will repeat the question, did your unit, including yourself, did you make those molotovs before you went on those, as you call them, training operations?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: Why, the 19th of November, the day that you actually carried out an attack and killed people there, did you have molotovs with you?

MR MAKOALA: No, there were no molotovs. I don't really know, because only my Commander knows the molotovs were not present.

MR PRIOR: Was there no room in your unit to discuss the operation with your Commander, that is Mr Dolo, before you went out on a operation?

MR MAKOALA: As a soldier I was only briefed when we arrived at our destination where the operation was to be carried out. I only took orders. All I know, all I knew was that we are going to a operation, I didn't know what type of operation it was. I was only briefed when we arrived at the place of the operation what was about to happened.

MR PRIOR: On the previous occasions you went on foot, we heard yesterday. Approximately 16 kilometres to the venue and 16 kilometres back. But, on the third occasion, that is on the 19th of November, you went by truck, you got a lift there. Is that right?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is true.

MR PRIOR: Was there any explanation given for that chance?

MR MAKOALA: No, there was no explanation given.

MR PRIOR: When you alighted from that vehicle that had taken you to the road, were you ultimately carried out the attack, did you know that you were going to attack white motorists?

MR MAKOALA: I only knew that were going to an operation, but not knowing what type of operation it was.

MR PRIOR: Along the road were you told that you were now going to do the something that you done on the two previous occasions, that is attack white motorists?

MR MAKOALA: When we arrived at the place of the operation, Comrade Dolo told us that were going to engage in a ambush, were going to attack cars belonging to whites.

MR PRIOR: Where there any discussion about whether any vehicles drive by any other racial groups for example, black people, were there any precautions to be taken?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, we were told about that.

MR PRIOR: What were the precautions that you had to take?

MR MAKOALA: Comrade Dolo said to us we should take that we do not attack cars belonging to Africans, because white others thing of making black people to drive for them and sit on the other side, as passengers. So he said we should take it not to injure Africans, that is how he gave me an order to go and be on the lookout as to whether all passengers in the car are all white.

MR PRIOR: Did you just, did you have binoculars with you or some apparatus that you could see more clearly?

MR MAKOALA: No, I didn't have any binoculars.

MR PRIOR: That vehicle that you attacked there was being driven by Mr Schroeder, who was a Coloured man, not a white man.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you know what Mr Schroeder looked like?

MR MAKOALA: I only saw white people in the car.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) Coloured in this country to cover a wide range of features.

MR PRIOR: I won't pursue that at this time, I'm, unfortunately the family didn't arrive yesterday and I needed to speak to them about that. If I may hold that aspect over?

Well, let me move on. The vehicle that came from the Herschel side that stopped as you say and picked up these white people, we know that was Mr Tsemane, a black man. Yet he was killed.

CHAIRPERSON: I didn't know that it was Mr Tsemane in that car. But what I saw was that he was dead by the time the car fell over the bridge.

MR PRIOR: We understand your evidence that you were very far from that point where Mr Tsemane picked up the white people.

MR MAKOALA: By that time I was trying to get to my Comrades, moving away from the position where I gave the signal and I was running by then, and it was misty. I couldn't see clearly.

MR PRIOR: So you were unable to see who the driver was at that stage of that vehicle who had picked up the white people?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: From firing at the vehicle driven by the white man who reversed, that is when Mr Dolo gave you the R4, did you fire any other shots on that occasion? From any other weapon?

MR MAKOALA: No. I only fired shots from the R4.

MR PRIOR: Where you next to Scorpion, or with Scorpion when he shot the person on the road?

MR MAKOALA: No, I was far from him.

MR PRIOR: Where you able to see how Scorpion managed to shoot this person? Let me make it easier, was this person running away at the time that Scorpion shot him?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, the person was running away.

MR PRIOR: When Scorpion fired he fell down?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, he fell down.

MR PRIOR: And then Dolo, Mr Dolo went up to him, this person with his R4 rifle, is that correct?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, that is correct.

MR PRIOR: I move on. Are you able to tell us how many times Scorpion fired at this person, or are you unable to say?

MR MAKOALA: I can't tell how many times he fired.

MR PRIOR: More than once?

MR MAKOALA: What I'm saying is that I can't explain how many times he fired, because what happened is that I heard the sound from the R4 after Comrade Scorpion fired. There was a gunshot, as you know that an R4 is a big sound. I only heard that sound.

MR PRIOR: Mr Dolo was, in relation to that person who had been shot by Scorpion, could you see where he was, and the body at that stage?

MR MAKOALA: May you repeat your question?

MR PRIOR: Could you see where Mr Dolo was when you heard the R4 fire?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I could see.

MR PRIOR: The rifle was pointed at the man's head.

MR MAKOALA: No, I couldn't see where the gun was placed. All I heard was the gun 4 sound, the R4 sound.

MR PRIOR: Where you able to see that person before he was shot by Mr Dolo, or not?

MR MAKOALA: May you repeat your question.

MR PRIOR: Did you, were you able to see this man who was shot by Dolo before he was shot by Dolo? Was he, I want to establish whether you saw him, whether he was moving, or whatever.

MR MAKOALA: From where I was standing, I couldn't see what was happening. I couldn't see whether the person was moving or not.

MR PRIOR: What was Roger doing at that stage?

MR MAKOALA: Me and Roger were standing on the bridge by that time, looking down where the white female was lying, who seemed dead, together with Tsemane.

MR PRIOR: When the vehicle with the females arrived on the scene, is it not correct, according to one of their affidavits, Mrs Booysen, the firearms, or firearms were pointed at them?

MR MAKOALA: No, no-one pointed guns at them. I think they were frightened by the gun Dolo was having, because it was a big rifle. The guns we had on us were put away so as not to frighten those people. But Comrade Dolo didn't have a place where he could hide is gun because it was a big one.

ADV SANDI: Where did you hide your guns away?

MR MAKOALA: We put them in our pockets, because we had dustcoats on us and these coats have big pockets, that's how we could hide our guns.

CHAIRPERSON: You've said through the "we" word, you were the person known as Kleintjie, is that correct?

MR MAKOALA: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: Roger was there and Scorpion.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, they were there.

CHAIRPERSON: What did you call the first applicant?

MR MAKOALA: I used to call him Kenny.

CHAIRPERSON: And that, there was only the four of you there?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you got your amnesty application before you?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I've got it.

CHAIRPERSON: On page 11 you have set out details of the incidents you were involved in, is that so?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Which of these, those events, is the one you are talking about?

MR MAKOALA: It is the incident of Lady Grey.

CHAIRPERSON: Lady Grey ...(inaudible)

MR MAKOALA: Yes. Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And who did you say were involved?

MR MAKOALA: It was me, Comrade Dolo - Phila Dolo - Kenny, Roger and Scorpion.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) who is Jabo?

MR MAKOALA: I can't remember who Jabo is. I can't remember him, but what I know is that it was me, Comrade Phila Dolo, Roger and Scorpion.

CHAIRPERSON: So you can't remember Jabo, but you put him in your application.

MR MAKOALA: There were reason for me not to remember him why is that by the time I made my application, no-one helped me, no-one led me and there are so many names involved here. Maybe I think an error was committed here regarding names.

CHAIRPERSON: And you say that two persons was killed in this attack and three injured.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: But that's not what you've told us today.

MR MAKOALA: I can't remember some of the facts clearly. I only remember them when my Comrades reminds me of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Can't you remember that two people were killed in the vehicle that went off the bridge, that you stood and looked at, at that somebody else was shot in the head on the road? You say you can't remember that.

MR MAKOALA: I remember about those two people who I looked at from the bridge.

CHAIRPERSON: At the man who was shot by Scorpion and Dolo?

MR MAKOALA: Yes I also remember him.

CHAIRPERSON: And the body that was left lying there?

MR MAKOALA: Yes I remember him.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why isn't he in your application?

MR MAKOALA: Whose name are you talking about?

CHAIRPERSON: The three people who were killed. You have said you remember the three, but in you application you say only two people were killed.

MR MAKOALA: It is because this person who was shot by Comrade Dolo and Phila Scorpion, and Scorpion, I was not sure whether he was dead or alive. The only ones I saw that were dead are the ones I was looking at, which is Mr Tsemane and this white female. That is why in my application I only mention two people.

ADV SANDI: Do you know any person by the name Jabo?

MR MAKOALA: Comrades used many chimerengas. There were some Comrades who called themselves by the name Jabo.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) injured in this attack?

MR MAKOALA: All I know is that Mr Tsemane is the one who died because I heard people talking about him in the location and I realised that it was Mr Tsemane who died.

CHAIRPERSON: In your application which I have already referred to you, you say two persons was killed in this act, three injured.

MR MAKOALA: May you repeat what you have said?

CHAIRPERSON: In you application which is before you, which I have referred you to, you say two persons was killed in this act, three injured. I want to know who those three injured were that you write about in your application.

MR MAKOALA: Those who were injured are the one who I shot at with an R4 rifle and the one who Comrade Dolo tried to run down with his car and the one who was shot by Comrade Scorpion.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) to run down injured

MR MAKOALA: He looked as if he was limping. I don't know whether he got injured when the car was shot at. I don't know whether he was injured at the first time when the car was shot at, but he seemed limping by the time I looked at him.

CHAIRPERSON: And are you seriously suggesting that the man who Dolo shot in the head at close range, whose body was lying on the road, you thought he was just injured?

MR MAKOALA: Because I am not a doctor. I thought, I can't tell whether he was only injured, or dead.

CHAIRPERSON: The body was fairly close to you.

MR MAKOALA: No, the body was not close to me.

CHAIRPERSON: Well you told us it was close enough for the women to be frightened of it. Have you forgotten that you have told us that in your evidence this morning?

MR MAKOALA: What I said is the body was lying along the road and I thought these ladies were frightened by this body who is blood all over it. I didn't say that body was next to me or near to me.

CHAIRPERSON: You have now said you could see there was blood all over it.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, blood was visible because if a cloth is bright, and blood is all over it, then you can see that, because this person was wearing a bright clothes or bright clothing, and blood could be seen all over that clothing.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Carry on.

MR LAX: Mr Makoala, just something we got to pick up here, but just before I do. The man's head was just about blown apart. If you could see there was blood all over the place, you would have seen that his head was just about blown apart. It would have been pretty obvious to anybody.

MR MAKOALA: No, I couldn't see where the bullet went through because of the distance between me and the body, but blood can be seen because it flows all over clothes.

MR LAX: Now when we dealt with the question of why Jabo's name appears under this particular operation you said you think you'd made a mistake. You didn't know any Jabos. Was that your answer, have I got it right? Just let him answer Mr Mthembu. He can tell me if I'm wrong.

MR MTHEMBU: No, the answer Mr Lax was so many of the Comrades used the name Jabo.

MR LAX: No, you got it wrong. That's why I said let him answer. That was much later he said that about chimerengan names. When he first answered the Judge about Jabo, not Mr Sandi, he said he didn't recognise the name, he might have made a mistake. He didn't know anyone called Jabo at that time. That's what he said, that was his answer at that stage. Later on when Mr Sandi asked him about it he ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: With respect my friend, my recollection of his answer to me, the first answer was "I can't remember who Jabo is".

MR LAX: Precisely.

CHAIRPERSON: Not that he didn't know any Jabo.

MR LAX: Well, he can't remember who Jabo is. Fair enough. That was the answer. Am I correct that you can't remember who Jabo is?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR LAX: Well then why do you put the name Jabo in a number of incidents on this annexure of yours if you don't know who this person is?

MR MAKOALA: In this incident the people I were with . I can't remember among them who was using the name Jabo.

MR LAX: The question is, in your annexure here on page 11 you use the name Jabo three times in relation to three different incidents, and you tell us you can't remember who Jabo was. Why does his name appear in three different incidents if you can't remember who he is?

MR MAKOALA: I can't remember which other Comrade used the name Jabo. As I've explained earlier that most Comrades used the name Jabo.

MR LAX: Then how could you put that name here if you don't know who it is?

MR MAKOALA: I have explained earlier that by the time I made my application there was no-one guiding me through and in my mind there were so many incidents, because there are so many things that happened and the names of the Comrades involved were so many, and that is where I believe an error was committed with the messing up of names.

MR PRIOR: There are probably no more than seven or eight separate names here that are used consistently throughout all these attacks. Have a look. Count them for yourself. You mention Roger, you mention Kenny, you mention Scorpio. Then you mentioned Kenny, Scorpio and then you mention Oupa. Then you mention Temba Ngesi, Kenny and Jabo. Then you mention Jabo, Scorpion, Kenny and Roger. Scorpion, Max and Kenny. Scorpion, Kenny, Jabo. Do you see that? And then right at the very bottom you mention General and Lawrence.

MR MAKOALA: Yes I can see those names. What I remember is that there was another Comrade who I was involved with in an operation who is called Jabo. But in this attack I am talking about, that is the Lady Grey ambush, their was no Comrade named Jabo.

MR LAX: You will notice that up until Umtata you were with the same group of people most of the time. So we can count Lawrence and General out of this annexure for the purposes of this discussion.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I think if you look, that was an 1994 attack. All the other were the 1992 attacks, so this was a completely different event.

MR LAX: Yes, that's what I am getting at. So during the period 1992 you were involved with, broadly, one group of people with a few small exceptions. Do you concede that?

MR MAKOALA: What I can say is that there were other Comrades with whom I worked with. Like the Comrade who appeared at the bottom, that is General Lawrence and Max and Oupa. It wasn't only the Comrades I was with at Lady Grey Ambush. There were other Comrades with whom I worked.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) were other Comrades in other matters that you haven't set out in your amnesty application because Mr Lax has read to you the names of all the people who appear in the annexure to your amnesty application. Are you now saying you worked with other Comrades in other operations which you haven't disclosed?

MR MAKOALA: I'm only talking about the operation that appear in this annexure.

CHAIRPERSON: You had a group who on one occasion were joined by Oupa, one occasion by Temba Ngese and one occasion by Max. Otherwise it was the same group and Jabo was a member of it three times.

MR LAX: The Judge had expressed the point exactly that I am trying to make to. Please explain this to us.

MR MAKOALA: Jabo joined our group only twice.

MR LAX: Do I understand from your answer that you now remembered who Jabo was?

MR MAKOALA: May I please explain in which attacks did Jabo take part.

MR LAX: Answer the first question, do you now remember who Jabo was?

MR MAKOALA: The Jabo I was with in this attacks is the one I am talking about.

MR LAX: Yes, so your answer is yes, you do remember him now.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I only remember the Jabo I worked with.

MR LAX: What other names did this Jabo use?

MR MAKOALA: I only know him as Jabo, and the other name is Dr Zamzam.

ADV SANDI: When was the last time you saw Jabo?

MR MAKOALA: I last saw Jabo in 1994.

ADV SANDI: Where was that?

MR MAKOALA: It was in Umtata.

ADV SANDI: What was happening in Umtata when you saw him?

MR MAKOALA: We were in a political class when I last saw him, and I last saw him after the political class finished.

ADV SANDI: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I have difficulty. You've now told us, you remember you were in political class with him 1994, he was also know as Dr Zamzam, he joined your group twice for attack. Why did you tell me when I first asked you that you didn't remember who Jabo is?

MR MAKOALA: I was talking about the Jabo who was in the unit, but what I was explaining also was that other Comrades were using this name Jabo as a nickname or chimerengan name, but the Jabo I was with at the unit is the very same Dr Zamzam I am talking about.

MR LAX: Sorry, just one thing, Mr Prior. You mentioned to us earlier that you were involved in other operations outside of those training operations. What operations were those? Before this operation that we are dealing with today.

MR MAKOALA: It is that at Mayaputi bridge and the attack on Zastron farmers and the Sterkspruit Hotel attack. Mayaputi bridge in Zastron.

MR PRIOR: So it was Mayaputi Bridge in Zastron, then you said it's farm attacks.

MR MAKOALA: Zastron farm attack.

MR PRIOR: Any others?

MR MAKOALA: Yes. Sterkspruit Hotel attack.

MR PRIOR: Before this we are dealing with today? The question was what attacks were you involved in before this one that we are dealing with today?

MR MAKOALA: What I remember is that the Mayaputi bridge attack happened before the one we are talking about. It together with the Zastron farmer attack happened before the attack we are talking about.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible)

MR MAKOALA: I can't remember whether the other attacks came after or before the one we are talking about, but all I remembered is that they happened in one year.

CHAIRPERSON: But you do remember those two before, the Mayaputi bridge and the Zastron farm attack?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And Kenny participated in both of them?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, he participated in both of them.

CHAIRPERSON: Was he the leader in both of them?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: May I proceed, Mr Chairman? If the Committee will bear with me and maybe correct me, my understanding yesterday was after this particular attack on the roadway at, near Herschel, you group then because you required funds or money or food, you went to the Sterkspruit Hotel. In other words that was the next operation. Am I correct in understanding that, Mr Chairman? It was actually put to Mr Dolo that he had robbed at R55 000 on that occasion. My understanding is that that happened after this particular attack.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I don't remember such a question being put to Mr Dolo yesterday. There was no such question.

MR PRIOR: I agree, Mr Mbandazayo, but ...(intervention)

MR LAX: Mr Prior, you might rephrase it into a slightly different way in terms of the fact that the papers in the bundles indicate that to be the case. And that's where we have that impression form.

MR PRIOR: That's why I asked whether I was correct in understanding that there was evidence like that.

ADV SANDI: I think the witness has already replied to your question, and I did not get any interpretation coming through. Maybe you can put the question to him?

MR PRIOR: Maybe the Interpreter can just repeat the answer.

INTERPRETER: He just says "yes" He said yes, they went there because they didn't have money.

MR PRIOR: You said after the attack on the road, the Sterkspruit Lady Grey Road near Herschel, I'm just trying to understand the sequence, ...(intervention)

MR MAKOALA: I can't remember whether it happened before or after, because these things happened quite a long time ago.

MR PRIOR: Certainly the sequence given in a confession that was put up at page 39 of the bundle, and I'm not, I don't intend to go into, I'm just trying to get the sequence. At page 39 you indicated the attack on the vehicles and you give quite a lot of detail.

MR LAX: Is that 39 of bundle "B", Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Of bundle "B", yes.

MR LAX: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: That's the typed transcript. Then after that you say "we left the vehicle in town. We went home. We then heard on the news that a white person had died in hospital and the black person had died." Then you said Phila said "we are hungry and we needed money. Then he sent us to Sterkspruit Hotel, Moleko Hotel. Dit was ek Kenny, Jabo en Temba - it was me, Jabo, Kenny and Temba." What I'm simply putting to you, it would seem that if the Sterkspruit Hotel occurred very soon after this attack, it seems that Jabo was part of your unit on that occasion and you mention his name in your amnesty application, as you did in the Lady Grey ambush.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, he was a member of our unit.

MR PRIOR: I remember that he went with you to ambush that Lady Grey Sterkspruit Road.

MR MAKOALA: No, he wasn't with us.

MR PRIOR: You stayed at Jozanna's Hoek for some months before this attack, is that correct? This Herschel Lady Grey attack.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: Who was the owner of that house? Do you know?

MR MAKOALA: I don't know his name because when he got there he only used to meet with our Commander, not us. He never even spoke to us. That is why we don't even, I don't even know his name.

MR PRIOR: Do you know someone by the name of Dikotsi?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: Who is Dikotsi?

MR MAKOALA: Dikotsi was the Free State Regional Chairman of the PAC.

MR PRIOR: Did he send you to Jozanna's Hoek?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: Who is Bele-Bele? Mbele-Mbele?

MR MAKOALA: Mbele-Mbele is an African whom I met at Sterkspruit.

MR PRIOR: Is he also a member of PAC/APLA?

MR MAKOALA: He is a member of the PAC.

MR PRIOR: Do you know him by any other name?

MR MAKOALA: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Did he take you to his house at Jozanna's Neck where you stayed for three days?

MR MAKOALA: He didn't take us to Jozanna's Hoek. He took us to Jozanna's Neck.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) not Jozanna's Hoek.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so, he took us to Jozanna's Neck.

MR PRIOR: Who was Ben?

MR MAKOALA: Ben was one of our Comrades who used to drive for us.

MR PRIOR: Was he part of your unit at the time of this ambush at Herschel, near Herschel?

MR MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: Did he join afterwards, or before, or what? Did he leave your unit before this attack in November 1992?

MR MAKOALA: What happened is that I just couldn't see him anymore. I didn't know where he went.

MR PRIOR: Was he also staying at Jozanna's Hoek?

MR MAKOALA: He used to stay with us.

MR PRIOR: And Max, was he part of the unit at the time of this ambush, the one that we're dealing with now?

MR MAKOALA: No, he wasn't part of our unit. After I am attacking Lady Grey I didn't see him again.

MR PRIOR: And you already told us Jabo was part of your unit at this time. He was also known as Dr Zamzam.

MR MAKOALA: There were many of us then together, but when we went out to attack, he only became a member of our unit in two attacks. It was an attack on a garage and the attack at Sterkspruit Hotel.

MR PRIOR: What was this now? ...(inaudible) application?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it appears in my application.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, I beg your pardon.

CHAIRPERSON: What are the two attacks you say? Sterkspruit Hotel and what was the other one?

MR MAKOALA: Sterkspruit Garage.

MR PRIOR: Sterkspruit Garage listed at page 12 of bundle "B". Sorry, the persons involved were yourself, it looks like Annus, and Kenny. Oh, and Kenny. You only list two people.

CHAIRPERSON: At the Sterkspruit Hotel?

MR PRIOR: Garage. He says, yes, he was, he lists them as Sterkspruit Hotel, but over the page at page 12 of bundle "B", he lists the Sterkspruit Garage attack where he only says himself and Kenny were involved.

CHAIRPERSON: Annus, isn't, or is it and?

MR PRIOR: Yes I thought it was Annus, but Mr Lax corrected me, it is "and", because there is no comma. Do you see that in your application? Please look at page 12 of bundle "B". It's something that you recorded there. Is that right, do you only list yourself and Kenny as being part of the Sterkspruit Garage operation?

MR MAKOALA: It was me and Jabo, not Kenny.

MR PRIOR: I'm going to go onto something else, Mr Chairman, unless the Committee want to ask any questions around this. Just, I just want to point out to you that now this is a fourth incident during 1992 that Jabo was involved, and yet you couldn't remember the person when we first started asking you about him. I just want some clarity about some names that appear in your statement to the Magistrate, that is the confession which appeared page 37 of bundle "B". Those names are Sipho, was he part of the unit at the time of the Herschel Lady Grey ambush? The names are Sipho, Kenny, well we know Kenny is, sorry let's deal with that seriatim. Sipho?

MR MAKOALA: No, he wasn't part of the unit.

MR PRIOR: Kenny, it's spelled there KHENE, it may be a different spelling. Who is that person?

MR MAKOALA: It is Phila Dolo.

MR PRIOR: Medibula?

MR MAKOALA: That is another Comrade with whom I was in training.

MR PRIOR: Did he have any other names, Medibula?

MR MAKOALA: He used the name Kenny.

MR PRIOR: And we've got Roger, we know about, and the other name is Lepha.

MR MAKOALA: He was one of the Comrades I was in training with.

MR PRIOR: Was he part of your unit at the time of this attack that we're dealing with?

MR MAKOALA: No he wasn't part of our unit.

MR LAX: What, when we use the word unit, and Mr Prior, maybe you can help us here, there are different ways of understanding what that means, and maybe that's why you keep saying "no".

MR PRIOR: The unit I am referring to is the unit that went out on these operations.

CHAIRPERSON: But haven't we been told, Mr Prior, that a unit was picked for an operation only. It was two or three men who went and did it. And then is disbanded. They used unit in the sense of that particular operation. But also before you go on, the name Kenny does not appear there as a separate name. There is no comma after Kenny, it is Kenny Medibula comma.

MR PRIOR: Yes, I notice that now. I am grateful to ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Because he goes on a little later where he refers to "Phila moes ons oplaai".

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I'd like to just move back to the day of the incident. I just need some clarity on the following aspect. You said when the, after the initial shooting, that is after your signal that you gave, there was a vehicle that came from Herschel. We know now that the vehicle that was driven by Mr Tsemane. You said the people, the white people that got out of the first bakkie all got into that vehicle. Is that correct?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is true.

MR PRIOR: How many white people did you see getting into that vehicle?

MR MAKOALA: I am not sure how many got into the car as I have already explained that I was running at that time, trying to get route to where my Comrades where. I just didn't realise how many whites got into that car.

MR PRIOR: Well did you that the female, the white female, got into the vehicle?

MR MAKOALA: Yes I realised that the white female got into that car.

MR PRIOR: This way, when the, Mr Tsemane drove away with that vehicle, there were no other people running away on the road at that stage? I just want to get some clarity on that, from your perspective. In other words all the occupants of the vehicle that had been attacked had climbed in, or got in onto Mr Tsemane's vehicle.

MR MAKOALA: I am not sure whether they all got in that car, but after that car made a U-turn there was no-one running, that is running or getting out of the car that was attacked initially.

ADV SANDI: Excuse me, Mr Prior. Can I just ask one question for clarity. You said you, after you gave the sign then you started running towards the, where the other Comrades were. Now when this car driven by Tsemane stopped, how far were you from that car?

MR MAKOALA: I was something like 100m away from that car. ADV SANDI: Mr Dolo yesterday said where you were standing giving the sign, it was almost 100m. In other words, you had just started running from the place where you were standing to give the sign, the signal?

MR MAKOALA: What I can say is that they were also running forward, that is why I can't say the metres were becoming less between me and them. They were still running, trying to chase those people. That's why I say I don't think that the metres had lessened by then. I'm not saying I was exactly 100m away from them, it's just an estimation.

ADV SANDI: Away from you or towards your direction?

MR MAKOALA: They were running away from me.

ADV SANDI: How many people did you see getting into the car which had stopped?

MR MAKOALA: As I have said I couldn't see exactly how many people got into the car. What I realised is that a female got into that car. I couldn't see whether the others were in the car, but by that time there was no-one along the road. There was not white person along the road.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: Yes, the purpose of my question is the following, that if those people including the man who was later shot by Scorpion had been in that vehicle, that, we know that vehicle had left the road, Tsemane's vehicle. And my confusion is this, how did Mr Schroeder who we know was later shot, how did he get onto the road is he had boarded Mr Tsemane's vehicle? That was my, Mr Chairman, that was my understanding of Mr Dolo's evidence that the occupants hiked a taxi. I think they, at page 3 of the bundle "B" in his affidavit he said "The occupants came out of the car and ran away. They hiked a taxi and I shot the taxi and it fell off the bridge." So my question is, if those people got into Mr Tsemane's vehicle that left the road, how did that person come back onto the road if he was in fact in Tsemane's vehicle?

MR MAKOALA: What I am explaining is that I couldn't see how many people got into the car. I don't know when did that person escape.

MR PRIOR: If the Committee will just bear with me. There is one aspect I just wish to verify from Mr Brummer's statement.

MR LAX: While you are doing that, Mr Prior, perhaps I can just canvass something else with the witness. You said to us in your evidence that when you, once Dolo had stopped this vehicle with the ladies in it and the driver said she couldn't drive because she was so frightened. You then borrowed the vehicle, then you told her that she would find it at Molefe's store, or Moleko's store. Is that right?

MR MAKOALA: No, it isn't true. We said she would find the car next to Moleko's place.

MR LAX: Moleko's place, is that a hotel, is that a store?

MR MAKOALA: It is a store.

MR LAX: The point I'm trying to make is, who told her that?

MR MAKOALA: Comrade Phila told her that.

MR LAX: ...(inaudible)

MR MAKOALA: Yes.

MR LAX: See, that's not what he told us yesterday. He didn't specify where she would find the vehicle at all. Please explain this.

MR MAKOALA: If I remember well Comrade Dolo said it is me who remembers some of the things, because he said yesterday he couldn't remember well what he said and everything that happened. But I can remember well what he said, because I was standing next to him by then.

MR LAX: Now the second thing I wanted to canvass with you while Mr Prior is just looking for where, for this portion of his evidence, of the letter from Mr Brummer. You've told us that the reason you had to go and be a lookout was because of the misty conditions on that day, is that right?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR LAX: Well you see Mr Dolo told us nothing about it being misty on that day. He said the reason why you had to go there was because there was a curve on the road and you couldn't see clearly from where you, where they were positioned. Please explain this to us.

MR MAKOALA: The curve is also one of the reasons and it was also misty because it was in the morning and we couldn't see clearly who the occupants of the cars were. Whether it were whites or black people. The curve was also a reason why we couldn't see clearly who the occupants of the cars passing by were. That is when Comrade Dolo ordered me to go to a certain place so that I could give them a signal whether the car passing by belonged to white people or to black people.

MR LAX: Why did you leave your area where you were supposed to be the lookout? The operation wasn't over, you hadn't had a signal to retreat, why did you leave that place where you had been ordered to go?

MR MAKOALA: The order was I must give a signal and thereafter I must join the Comrades, so I couldn't stand there while the Comrades were working, I had to work together with them.

MR LAX: But your operation was to attack vehicles in the plural, not just one vehicle.

MR MAKOALA: Yes it is so.

MR LAX: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: While you are still there talking about signal, your instruction was that you should raise you hat when you see a vehicle driven by white people. The vehicle driven by

Mr Schroeder was not a vehicle driven by white people, or with white people as occupants. Can you tell us the reason why you gave a signal?

MR MAKOALA: I gave a signal because I thought it were, I saw them as whites in the car. I didn't know they were Coloureds in that car. According to my knowledge there are Coloureds who look like white people and there are Coloured who look like me, skin-wise. But in that car there were only Coloureds who looked like white people that is why I gave the signal.

ADV SANDI: When they were being chased, when they were running away, wouldn't you people see that they were not white, they were Coloured?

MR MAKOALA: As I have said earlier that there are Coloureds who look like whites. I couldn't differentiate whether they were Coloureds or white. We couldn't tell the difference, we only perceived them as whites.

MR PRIOR: What I want to put to you, I was able to find a Mr Brummer mark, but the information that I have gleaned is that Mrs Brummer and Mr Schroeder were on their way to the Score Furnisher where they worked in, supermarket, in Sterkspruit. There were only two occupants of that vehicle. I may also put it to you, in the Police investigation that I am privy to there was no other mention of any other occupant in that bakkie driven by Mr Schroeder and the passenger, Mrs Brummer, on that morning. Are you saying there were more that two occupants of that bakkie?

MR MAKOALA: Yes it is so.

MR PRIOR: Just one last thing, I notice from your annexure to your amnesty application, apart from the Umtata matter in '94 it seems that your operations all were concluded in 1992. I just want to know is there a reason, were you withdrawn from the field or what is the position, because there seems to be no attacks

in '93.

MR MAKOALA: May you please repeat you question?

MR PRIOR: In the list, the extensive list, of attacks in which you participated, apart from the one in Umtata in '94, all the other attacks were in 1993. I just want to know, it, were you withdrawn from operations for 1993, for example. It doesn't seem that you participated in any attacks in 1993. And I want to know if it is so, what is the reason.

MR MAKOALA: I was withdrawn from the unit in 1992. I didn't partake in any attack in 1993. I was in ...(indistinct) by that time, so I didn't take part in attacks.

MR PRIOR: It seems that after the Herschel attack where these people were killed on the road you say you then were withdrawn.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I was withdrawn from attacks.

MR PRIOR: Was there any sanction by APLA or the PAC because of this attack? That this didn't fit in with their policy?

MR MAKOALA: No there was nothing like that.

CHAIRPERSON: When you say Herschel attack, which do you mean?

MR PRIOR: This matter we're dealing with Mr Chairman is commonly referred to as the Herschel ambush. It's the Lady Grey ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well he's described it as the Lady Grey ambush in his application.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Herschel is very close to Sterkspruit.

CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I just want to make sure. He called it the Lady Grey. Do you realise that when you were asked about the Herschel application it meant this one which you called the Lady Grey ambush?

MR MAKOALA: By the time I made the application, I didn't know the name of places. I only realised afterwards that this place was between Herschel and Lady Grey, after I made my application.

CHAIRPERSON: What about the other matters you talked about in your application. Two attacks on Lady Grey farms, were they before or after this attack we've been talking about?

MR MAKOALA: They happened before this attack.

CHAIRPERSON: And the Sterkspruit Hotel and Garage attack, were they before or after?

MR MAKOALA: They took place before.

CHAIRPERSON: So this was the last attack you were involved in?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so. That was in 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

ADV SANDI: And you became an instructor after this attack?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, that was in 1993 when I became an instructor.

ADV SANDI: What were you supposed to do as

MR MAKOALA: My job was to canvass for membership from people who came from Jo'burg, Free State and to train them so that they could protect the members of the Organisation as our members were being attacked there were no people to protect them. So my job entailed giving them training to protect our members, that is the members of the PAC.

CHAIRPERSON: Where were ...(inaudible)

MR MAKOALA: That happened in Umtata.

MR PRIOR: Just to be fair to you, because I think there's ...(inaudible) and you've agreed with it, the Moleko Hotel, the Sterkspruit Hotel attack happened after this ambush we're talking about today. I thought we'd established that earlier from you. Now I don't want you to end up being confused and agreeing to something you didn't necessarily agree with. I just want you to be clear about this.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, will there be any evidence from the Police as to when these attacks did take place?

MR PRIOR: Yes, I have that available. I don't have it with me now, but it will be available. Mr Chairman, the thought has just occurred to me that Sterkspruit is a common, is an attack in which both applicants feature, or certainly indicate on this application, but I see it's not, it hasn't been prepared as part of the hearings. I feel that in, I understand that there was no gross violation in the sense that people weren't killed or injured in that matter, but I believe that that matter could be presented, I think conveniently during this sitting.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I think it's a matter you can certainly discuss with their attorneys.

MR PRIOR: Yes, otherwise it makes no sense if we simply deal with the matter at hand and leave Sterkspruit for some other time.

CHAIRPERSON: Well we will be adjourning fairly soon. You can talk to them.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: What I want to know is, Mr Lax is relying, as he is quite entitled to do, on the information contained in the applicant's affidavit. But have we more reliable information as to when the hotel attack and the garage attack took place.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman I can get that within minutes. If we could take, maybe take the adjournment at this stage. I'll have that information very quickly.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we'll do that. We'll take the adjournment so you can discuss this.

HEARING ADJOURNS:

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, for the record, I was able to establish via the Police that the Sterkspruit Hotel matter or incident occurred on the 27th of October 1992 and the sum involved there was R65 000,00.

CHAIRPERSON: 27th ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: 27th of October 1992.

CHAIRPERSON: And the sum was?

MR PRIOR: R65 000,00. Mr Chairman I also endeavoured to find out whether there was any information, I understand that despite diligent searching to the documents the Police docket, if there ever was one, is just not to hand. That matter occurred within the Transkei as it was then known. We've been unable to locate any documentation regarding any investigation relating to that incident.

CHAIRPERSON: And the garage?

MR PRIOR: We haven't been able to get any information on that as yet, Mr Chairman, thank you. Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. I understand from the Tsemane family, Miss Alda Tsemane has a few questions to put to this applicant.

MISS TSEMANE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I am Ida T Tsemane. I am a daughter to the late Mr James Tsemane. I want to ask you Thabiso, as you arrived in Sterkspruit in 1992 is there a house were you giving accommodation before you went to Jozanna where you were hiding? Can you please tell this house who accommodated you?

MR MAKOALA: I arrived at Mr Mbele-Mbele's house where he took us to his house in Jozanna's Neck.

MISS TSEMANE: Is that the only house belonging to Mr Mbele-Mbele which you used to frequent in Sterkspruit? Because that Mr Mbele-Mbele is a PAC member. Is that the only house?

MR MAKOALA: No, also Jozanna's Hoek, at the house of a person which I said I don't know his name.

MISS TSEMANE: Would you, would I be wrong if I say I saw you many a times going to Sterkspruit in town?

MR MAKOALA: No, I used to frequent to town. I won't agree with you when you said, you say you seen me a lot of times in town.

MISS TSEMANE: When I say I see you, I saw you in a house in Sterkspruit. Would you agree with me?

MR MAKOALA: Could you please explain what you are saying when you say you saw me in Sterkspruit.

MISS TSEMANE: Would I be wrong by saying that I saw you a lot of times in Sterkspruit?

MR MAKOALA: There are black people staying in town at Sterkspruit and I used to visit them. Visit their work places, so I don't know in which house did you see me. You know exactly there is only one house.

MISS TSEMANE: When you went to conduct your attack, it seems as if you hiked, you hitchhiked on a truck. Where was that truck from and where was it driving to?

MR MAKOALA: The truck was from Sterkspruit heading for Herschel and we met the truck, I can't remember the names of places, but the met the truck just outside town.

MISS TSEMANE: Did you go to town on foot?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, we did.

MISS TSEMANE: When my father helped Mrs Brummer and Peter, did he see you, or was he just helping the victims who were struggling around the road?

MR MAKOALA: I'm not sure whether he could see us or not, but according to the situation there we were in the road where everyone could see us. But I don't know whether he could personally see us. If he was here he could explain whether he could see us or not.

MISS TSEMANE: Where you where everyone could see you?

MR MAKOALA: Yes. We were right in the middle of the road

MISS TSEMANE: Is it true that you killed my father because he tried to help the victims?

MR MAKOALA: He wasn't in our plan of attack. We didn't plan to kill him. It's just that he got hit by a stray bullet. We were not planning to kill black people.

MR PRIOR: Clarify, if I may, are you saying that you didn't aim at her father when these shots were going off, and there, because you must have seen him, is that what you're saying?

MR MAKOALA: As I said earlier I couldn't see that the person who was helping these white people was black or white.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) or not. You intended to shoot that car and whoever was in that car. Don't try and duck the issue by saying it was a stray bullet. Please carry on.

MR MAKOALA: We didn't intentionally kill him because we were aiming to kill white people, not black people.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) help the people escape, by killing the driver of the car.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman, through you, I think the interpretation from Sesotho to English, I don't believe that the right word is used. When he says "morero" I think he was saying it was not in their planning to have murdered Mr Tsemane, not that they were aiming at him, but it was not in the planning, that's my understanding.

CHAIRPERSON: But your planning was what you did when you picked up your guns and shot. I agree it would not be in your planning before because you didn't know he would be there. But when he stopped to pick up these white people, didn't you then shoot to stop him doing it?

MR MAKOALA: What happened is that Comrade Phila shot at the car. I don't know whether he was aiming for the driver, or where. All I saw was the car going down the bridge. If it were me who had fired the shot, I would be able to explain to the Committee whether I was aiming at the driver or aiming at the tyres. Unfortunately it is not me who fired the shot.

MISS TSEMANE: You said you stayed at Jozanna. What name did you call the name, the owner of that place by?

MR MAKOALA: Every time the owner of the house was there he didn't meet us. He only met with our Commander. That is why I didn't know his name. He didn't come very often to that house.

MISS TSEMANE: Where did he stay?

MR MAKOALA: I don't know where he stayed.

MISS TSEMANE: Do you know Pitso?

MR MAKOALA: No, I don't know Pitso.

MISS TSEMANE: Are you telling this house that you telling the truth when you say you don't know Pitso?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I am telling the truth. I don't know Pitso. Maybe if you can tell him how he looks, maybe I might say I know him.

MISS TSEMANE: Would I be wrong if I said you were staying at Mr Pitso's house?

MR MAKOALA: No, I just hear that from you. All I know is that the house we were living in, staying in, I don't know who it belonged to and who the owner's name was. But if you want me to explain to you where the house was, I can. If maybe I was living in Sterkspruit, or a resident of Sterkspruit, I would know maybe who the owner of the house was, but you can tell the difference between Jozanna's Hoek and Jozanna's Neck because of the time I had stayed there I could differentiate between the two places.

MISS TSEMANE: You say you were killing white people. There are no whit people in Sterkspruit. Which white people were you going to kill then in Sterkspruit?

MR MAKOALA: There are white people in Sterkspruit. There are white people working from shops, who own shops and those working in furniture shops. No I want you to tell me why do you say there are no white people in Sterkspruit?

MISS TSEMANE: There are now white people in Sterkspruit. The only white people who are there are there to serve the Sterkspruit community.

MR MAKOALA: But what remains is that there are white people.

MISS TSEMANE: Why did you choose among these white people? Do you realise that you are being used by that time? By the people you have just mentioned.

MR MAKOALA: No it is not like that.

MISS TSEMANE: They were using you as if they were killing white people whilst they were aiming to reach for their business objectives.

MR MAKOALA: I don't agree with you when you say that. All I know is that we were killing white people because they were our enemies at that time.

MISS TSEMANE: Were you not choosing whether those white people where serving the community or not?

MR MAKOALA: The people you are talking about were members of the PAC who helped us with accommodation, food and so on. We were not working for one single person as you have said.

MISS TSEMANE: In your attack, why didn't you attack the white person who was working with you in business at Sterkspruit?

MR MAKOALA: I don't understand your question. May you please repeat it.

MISS TSEMANE: Why didn't you in your attack, attack this white person whom the PAC people used together with business, in business?

MR MAKOALA: There was no white people, or white person with whom we were involved in business.

MISS TSEMANE: Why didn't you ever attack Mr Hattingh? I'm talking about Mr Hattingh who drives in the 4 X 4.

MR MAKOALA: Which one is that? I don't know him.

MISS TSEMANE: May you please repeat.

MR MAKOALA: I told you that he belonged to "Engelfoot". It is the first time that I hear that. If at all he was present during the day of the attack I think him as a white person could have been attacked also. If you listen to the testimony where that boy in the 4 X 4 was shot at and then he reversed. Our Commander said that we have to leave. Then our Commander did a U-turn and we all left. That boy in the 4 X 4 vehicle was also attacked.

MISS TSEMANE: You made a U-turn and went away because you hurt your victims and to which you were directed from the PAC that a Score van will approach from some direction. I have the impression that you only out to attack that van.

MR MAKOALA: I only hear that from you. All I know is that we are going to attack white people not only that van from Score.

MISS TSEMANE: You killed my father and you first started attacking the whites who were working with him. It is Mr van Rooyen and Masheba and you didn't succeed in your operation.

MR MAKOALA: Unfortunately I didn't know that those white people were working with Mr Tsemane.

MISS TSEMANE: Mr van Rooyen works in a bakery. He was my father's boss. Mr Masheba also worked in a bakery. You ended up by killing my father.

MR PRIOR: The relevance of these questions, I may be able to assist the Committee. I canvassed the questions with Miss Tsemane. Mr van Rooyen and the other gentleman who worked at the bakery are the people that I believe were involved in the molotov, the abortive molotov attack a few days before this incident and I understand that is why this lady, the relevance of these questions are being put. I don't think it is coming across as clear as that, but Mr van Rooyen was the owner of the bakery and his vehicle was attacked a few days before the 19th of November and I think that is the perspective of the question.

CHAIRPERSON: On the information you supplied us with earlier, Mr Prior, it was on the 3rd of November.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman, but I'm saying it was the training operations that were alluded to in the evidence. The information that Mr van Rooyen's vehicle was attacked, he was the baker at Sterkspruit.

MR LAX: Perhaps you could assist us here Mr Prior. She's referred to a vehicle as a "Score" vehicle, is this the vehicle Brummer and Schroeder were in?

MR PRIOR: I understand there was no logo on the bakkie as such.

MR LAX: Is she suggesting that they would have know which vehicle they were attacking?

MR PRIOR: I think what she's putting to this, to the witness is that they were attacking the people there who worked in Sterkspruit. Mr van Rooyen was attacked earlier with this molotov. He was the baker at Sterkspruit and some days or weeks later the Score vehicle was attacked with Mrs Brummer and Mr Schroeder, it think that's the thrust of the questions.

MR LAX: Thanks.

CHAIRPERSON: While we're on this, do you know anything about an attack on a Mr Geursel?

MR PRIOR: That's the Sterkspruit Mayaputi, we're going to hear that later, next week, Mr Chairman, with applicant Gumpha. But that I believe occurred before.

CHAIRPERSON: The day before, apparently.

MR PRIOR: Yes.

MISS TSEMANE: You have killed my father while we was trying the help Mrs Brummer and you killed them both and their blood mixed made a sacrifice for the freedom we are now in. Thereafter if I had to hear well you are only asking forgiveness from me only. Why is that?

MR MAKOALA: What I've said is that I would ask Mr Tsemane's family to forgive me, because what happened didn't happen intentionally. Our aim was to kill white people, not black people. I think that's what I said earlier.

MISS TSEMANE: The places you were always at Mbele-Mbele and Pitso's were I saw you most of the times, do you know that all those people had football clubs which were rivals? That is why I say to you, they were using you for their aims.

MR MAKOALA: No, I don't know about that. And whether those people were owners of football clubs, I don't know. It's the first time I hear about that.

MISS TSEMANE: You knew very well about that. You just don't want to tell this house the truth. I'll end up there with my questions to you.

CHAIRPERSON: You sit down please. During the course of your questioning you referred to, as I understood it, Peter as one of the people who had been attacked in this vehicle.

MISS TSEMANE: I beg your pardon, Sir, I didn't hear property.

CHAIRPERSON: You referred to, as I recollect your evidence to Peter, as one of the people who was attacked, that's Peter Schroeder. From the way you said it, it appeared that you knew him.

MISS TSEMANE: I know Peter very well.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, I don't know if you've been listening to the evidence. Mr Prior put certain questions saying that Peter was a Coloured man, why did they attack a Coloured man, and we stopped him on the basis that there was no evidence as to what Peter looked like, whether he would have known that Peter was a Coloured man and not a white man. Do you understand what I am saying?

MISS TSEMANE: Now you know whether this is true or not. If you accept that, you couldn't have said, couldn't have seen that Peter was not a white man, then you'd believe it. But if you think anybody looking would have immediately seen that Peter was not a white man I think you ought to question this witness about it.

MISS TSEMANE: I'm sorry, sir, I just forgot, I did wanted to ask because them, because I know Peter very well, and Peter was really a Coloured, he was not, when you looked at Peter, you wouldn't say you are looking at a white person. They knew that Peter was working at Score and he was a Coloured. They had information that they gathered from Sterkspruit.

MR MAKOALA: My reply is that as I've explained earlier that in that car that we attacked we only saw white people. What my dear mother explains there that Peter looked like a Coloured. It is true. I believe when she says it was a Coloured and as to how the Committee explained to me. But I earlier said there are those Coloured who look white people. To the extent that you can't tell the difference whether this person is white Coloured.

MR PRIOR: You see, she's suggesting to you that he didn't look like a white person. That's what she's just asked you, and, or put to you. And it's that what you have been asked to comment on. You've gone right around the question in a big circle, but you haven't answered it. She's disagreeing with you. Do you say she's wrong? Yes or no. It's very simple, we don't need a long answer, yes or no.

MR MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: I've managed, Mr Chairman, I've managed to secure a photograph at very short notice of Mr Peter Schroeder. I understand he's on the left in the grey suite. I have another photograph, he's on the right hand side of the photograph.

MISS TSEMANE: Can I say something?

MR PRIOR: Yes, sure.

MISS TSEMANE: After killing Peter and my father, you left because you knew that you had completed a job. There would be no white person again coming to Sterkspruit.

MR MAKOALA: The time was up for our operation as our Commander told us.

MISS TSEMANE: When you're talking about your Commander, your Commander denied all regarding this incident.

MR MAKOALA: I can't answer you here because what you are telling me is that, you are not asking me questions, you are telling me what happened, and I'm not able to answer you because you are not asking me questions, you are telling me what happened.

MISS TSEMANE: Yes I want to tell me, because there are some things you have been aware of, you might not have been aware of.

MR PRIOR: The question as I understand it, is that after you had killed her father and Peter, you left that place because you had finished what you had gone there to do. Is that right or wrong.

MR MAKOALA: No, that's not true.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, did you do any more attacks on that road after this one?

MR MAKOALA: No there were not other attacks.

MISS TSEMANE: ...(inaudible)

MR MAKOALA: No.

MISS TSEMANE: Did you launch any attacks since 1992 up to now?

MR MAKOALA: The answer was no.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, what was ...(inaudible) question, the one before this one, I couldn't hear it?

MISS TSEMANE: Did you launch any other attacks since 1992 up to now? I thank you.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MTHEMBU: ...(indistinct), Mr Chairperson. Mr Makoala, you have mentioned Jabo on page 11 of your annexure to your application form. Could you explain to this Committee about this Jabo?

MR MAKOALA: The Jabo I talked about here is the other name of Dr Zam-Zam, but I've explained that there are other Jabos, they are other Comrades who used the name Jabo, but not in this attack where the Jabo I was talking about was present.

MR MTHEMBU: Are you then telling this Committee that the Jabo you referred to denotes more than one person?

MR MAKOALA: According to my knowledge the Jabo I am talking about is Dr Zam-Zam, and what I have explained is that there were other Comrades who used the name Jabo, but not the Jabo I was with during the attacks I have talked about.

MR MTHEMBU: Answer my question. The question is, the Jabo you mentioned here, it is one person or more than one person, Mr Makoala?

MR PRIOR: He's answered you question Mr Mthembu, and it's that its exactly the same as his earlier evidence. If you're trying to suggest to him that these might be more than one person, he's already given evidence to say that all the, they're, he implied that they were all the same person. But, go ahead.

MR MTHEMBU: That's all that I wanted to canvass, Mr Chairperson. Thank you.

ADV SANDI: Just on that one, Mr Mthembu. Can I ask the applicant, right at page 12, under the column Lady Grey Ambush, which ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Page 11.

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, page 11.

CHAIRPERSON: You said 12.

ADV SANDI: Oh thank you, sorry, I said 12, I meant to say page 11. Which Jabo is this that you are referring to at page 11?

MR MAKOALA: Which operation are you talking about?

ADV SANDI: The Lady Grey Ambush.

MR MAKOALA: May you please repeat your question then so that I can answer you?

ADV SANDI: Okay, you have mentioned a Jabo at that page. Can you see that, can you see the name Jabo at page 11? You mentioned it ...(intervention)

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I can see that.

ADV SANDI: You've mentioned the name at least three times. Do you see that?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I can.

ADV SANDI: Okay, now let's start with the Jabo mentioned under Sterkspruit Hotel attack, can you see that one?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I can see that.

ADV SANDI: Which Jabo is this?

MR MAKOALA: This is Zam-Zam I have been talking about.

ADV SANDI: You go on to mention the name under the Lady Grey Ambush. Do you see the name Jabo there?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I can see the name.

ADV SANDI: Which Jabo is that one? Is that also Zam-Zam, or a different Jabo?

MR MAKOALA: I think this is where the error was committed when I wrote my amnesty application, because I have been involved in many operations. Maybe I confused names here following operations that I was involved in. I hope this is an error that was committed when I made my amnesty application, but all I know is that Jabo was not present during the Lady Grey Ambush.

ADV SANDI: You mentioned the name of Jabo again, that is under Lady Grey farm attack. Was Lady Grey attack 2, do you see that one?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I can see that.

ADV SANDI: Which Jabo is that one?

MR MAKOALA: As I said earlier that, by the time I made my amnesty application, there were so many names in my mind. And when I sat down and thought well about this I realised that Jabo was not present in this attack. It was me, Scorpion and Kenny. The Kenny I am talking about is not Phila Dolo, it is Kenny Modiboloa.

ADV SANDI: So once again you are making a mistake in mentioning the name of Jabo in this particular instance?

MR MAKOALA: Following the circumstances I was under when I made my amnesty application, it is true I was involved in many attacks, and I confused names and I was in a hurry when I made my amnesty application, worrying about the deadline for amnesty. That is how I came to confuse names. I started recalling events well when I sat, when I was sitting down at home with the other Comrades when we tried to help one another.

ADV SANDI: ...(inaudible) about this Jabo whose name you mentioned several times, is that you were in a hurry when you were making this application, hence you even put in a wrong name.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

ADV SANDI: I, on a different matter, I understand from my evidence you were wearing a white hat on the day in question. Do you recall that?

MR MAKOALA: No I was not wearing a white hat.

ADV SANDI: I think that was the evidence of Mr Dolo yesterday that you were wearing a hat, a white hat, and you were using that hat to indicate whenever a vehicle driven by whites comes. Was that not correct?

MR MAKOALA: I was not wearing a white hat. Maybe he saw the hat I was wearing as white, but I would like to say that it was white, but it was so dirty that it wasn't white anymore. Maybe he talked about its original colour, but by that time it was so dirty it was not as white as it were before.

ADV SANDI: Thank you, Mr Makoala. That's all I've got to ask.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR:

MR PRIOR: I just wanted to ask one thing, the, who was at your base during this time? I want to just try and clarify this. Which people were at your base at Jozanna's Hoek at this time? Just give us a list.

MR MAKOALA: During which time are you talking about?

MR PRIOR: The time you were carrying out all these attacks?

MR MAKOALA: Do you want me to tell you their names of, or their number

MR PRIOR: Let's start of, you were there, right? You were there, right?

MR MAKOALA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Roger was there, right?

MR MAKOALA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Now, Kenny was there. Which Kenny are we talking about? Were there two Kennys there?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it was Kenny Modiboloa and Kenny, which Phila Dolo used to call him Kenny also.

MR PRIOR: And then there was Scorpion.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, Scorpion was also there.

MR PRIOR: And then there was Oupa.

MR MAKOALA: Oupa was also present.

MR PRIOR: What was Oupa's second name? It looks like "K" something, but I can't read it on your annexure. It's chopped off on my photocopy.

MR MAKOALA: We called him Temba. The other names he used, I don't know of.

CHAIRPERSON: You wrote down on your application form a name beginning "Kho" I think. How did it continue?

MR MAKOALA: The name is Khotle. Oupa Khotle.

MR PRIOR: Khotle?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: Then we had Temba Ngese.

MR MAKOALA: Yes Temba was also present.

MR PRIOR: Is he different now to this Temba that you referred to as Oupa Khotle?

MR MAKOALA: Yes it is another Temba.

MR PRIOR: And then you had Max.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: Have I left anyone else out that was also there?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, there are some names you've left behind. It is Comrade Jabo, whom we used to call Zam-Zam and the other Jabo whom I knew as Jabo and Ben. From there the other Comrades would come and go, they wouldn't stay long at the base. I didn't really know their names.

MR PRIOR: Are these people you've mentioned the only people involved ...(intervention)

MR MAKOALA: There was also Phila, but not Phila Dolo, Phila Pawa. We used to call Phila Pawa Uys.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible)

MR MAKOALA: Who are you talking about?

MR PRIOR: Phila Pawa.

MR MAKOALA: What do you mean when you say he left earlier.

MR PRIOR: He was replaced by Phila Dodd, Dolo, sorry.

MR MAKOALA: No he never left. He was still around, but Comrade Phila Dolo was also one of the Commanders, that is the Regional Commander.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) Phila Dolo yesterday, was that he returned to Umtata. You were listening here.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, he returned to Umtata.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying not immediately?

MR MAKOALA: I don't know when he returned to Umtata. What happened is that after the attack we didn't sleep at the house or at the base. That is all of us didn't sleep at the base. So I don't know whether he returned immediately after the attack to Umtata or a few days thereafter.

MR PRIOR: You referring to this attack we're dealing with today?

MR MAKOALA: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying that he was present from the time Phila Dolo took over till this attack?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, he was still around.

MR PRIOR: What attacks did he take part in?

MR MAKOALA: I don't know which attacks he took part in. All I know is that he was my Commander, one of the Regional Commanders before Comrade Phila Dolo arrived.

MR PRIOR: Well did you go on any operations with him?

MR MAKOALA: With whom?

MR PRIOR: We're talking about Phila Pawa now. Did you go on any operations with him?

MR MAKOALA: No, Phila Pawa never accompanied me to any operations.

MR PRIOR: So who commanded you before Phila Dolo arrived?

MR MAKOALA: It was Phila Pawa.

MR PRIOR: So did you not go on any operations before Phila Dolo arrived?

MR MAKOALA: No, it never happened.

MR PRIOR: Now, you've mentioned two Jabos here. Which of these other Comrades of yours used the name Jabo?

MR MAKOALA: There were so many I can't tell the Committee who they are.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) the name Jabo.

MR MAKOALA: I don't know whether in the earlier he was deployed in he used the name Jabo or not.

MR PRIOR: Did he use the name Jabo at any time during an operation with you?

MR MAKOALA: No I don't remember him using the name Jabo in the operations I was involved in with him.

MR PRIOR: In any operation did Kenny ever use the name Jabo, that is Kenny Modiboloa? Just a yes or a no.

MR MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: Did Phila Dolo, who was also known as Kenny, did he ever use the name Jabo in an operation?

MR MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: Did Scorpion ever use the name Jabo in an operation?

MR MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: Did Oupa Khotle ever use the name Jabo in an operation?

MR MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: Did Temba ever use the name Jabo in an operation?

MR MAKOALA: No he hadn't.

MR PRIOR: Did Max ever use the name Jabo in an operation?

MR MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: Did Ben ever use the name Jabo in an operation?

MR MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: And we won't worry about Phila because you never went on an operation with him, as you have told us. Correct?

MR MAKOALA: Even some of the Comrades you asked whether they used the name Jabo, I've never been out on an operation with them, like Comrade Ben. I never went out on an operation with him.

MR PRIOR: You see, this annexure of yours only deals with operations, is that right?

MR MAKOALA: May you please repeat your question.

MR PRIOR: This annexure of yours at page 11 and 12 only deals with operations.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is true.

MR PRIOR: Only two people that you were involved in operations with used the name Jabo.

MR MAKOALA: What I explained earlier is that the Jabo I was with during operations is the one who is called Dr Zam-Zam. The other Jabo I have never been with him on operations or during operations.

MR PRIOR: So there was only one Jabo you ever went on operations with, correct?

MR MAKOALA: Yes it is correct. It is Dr Zam-Zam.

MR PRIOR: How could you confuse that Jabo with all the thousands of other Jabos you thought you were referring to? You only went on operations with one. Please explain this to us.

MR MAKOALA: What I said is that by the time I made my amnesty application I was so confused, there was no-one helping or guiding me and by then I thought of many names. The name that was nearer to my mind was Jabo because Jabo was my friend. We were very close. That is why on many occasions his name come up, came up my mind.

MR PRIOR: Is that Zam-Zam?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Mr, through you Mr Chairperson, I've got a few questions to ask you. When Phila Dolo came, what role did the other Phila play in your unit?

MR MAKOALA: According to my knowledge Phila Pawa was still around in the house. They shared the same responsibility, him and Comrade Dolo. He used to conduct political classes. Sometimes he will be around in the house, sometimes absent. He wasn't with us all the time like Comrade Dolo. Comrade Dolo was always present. They would exchange their roles.

MR SIBANYONI: ...(inaudible) under, to whom were you accounting or reporting?

MR MAKOALA: I was accountable to both of them because they were sharing the same responsibilities. But during operations I would account to Comrade Phila Dolo. I would report to him after operations.

MR SIBANYONI: Then did you personally have any position or rank in the unit?

MR MAKOALA: No I was an ordinary soldier.

MR SIBANYONI: Just a coincidence that they chose you to go and give a signal. Was it not any position of prominence that you were playing in the unit?

MR MAKOALA: No it just happened that they pointed me out and I took the order as it came to me. It's not that I was occupying a certain rank. It just happened.

MR SIBANYONI: You told the Committee that you were not aware of the details of the operation until you arrived at the scene. Did I understand you correctly?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is true.

MR SIBANYONI: Only at the scene that you were then told you were going to attack cars whose occupants were white?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, we were only told of the nature of the operation when we arrived at the scene and we were also briefed on further details.

MR SIBANYONI: What would have happened to you if you refused to carry out that instruction?

MR MAKOALA: I couldn't refuse that. I couldn't defy the order. I took the order as it was and I was also willing to carry out the order. Personally I had prepared myself for the attack. So there was no way that I could refuse the order.

MR SIBANYONI: In you affidavit did you say that you are 24 years of age. Were you born in 1974?

MR MAKOALA: It is so.

MR SIBANYONI: So in 1992 you were 18 years of age?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is true.

MR SIBANYONI: The daughter to Mr Tsemane, the late Mr Tsemane, is putting to you that this thing has got, had nothing to do with any political objective. In other words you were not motivated by any political considerations or carrying any policy decisions of the PAC, but you were targeting specific people there. What is your, I mean response to that?

MR PRIOR: Sorry, Mr Sibanyoni, she didn't say that. She in fact said that they were being used by people with a different agenda. Sorry, if I could just say that.

MR SIBANYONI: Yes, thank you for putting it that way. The daughter says there were people belonging to clubs and then they used you for their own motives. What is your response to that?

MR MAKOALA: It is not so.

MR SIBANYONI: In your affidavit I see you have quoted the founding president of the PAC, Robert Sebukwe. Thank you, thank you, Mr Chairperson. Page 7 of the new bundle, paragraph 5 you are quoting the founding president of the PAC, Robert Sebukwe. But the quote goes as far as the end of paragraph 5. My question to you, is paragraph 6 your own words, or was it supposed to be the continuation of the quotation?

MR MAKOALA: It continues. The quotation continues.

MR SIBANYONI: So the whole of paragraph 6 is also part of what Robert Sebukwe said?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

MR SIBANYONI: In your own words, what did you hope to achieve by killing these people which were killed on the 19th of November?

MR MAKOALA: What I wanted to achieve was to make the then government aware that we are now in a war. We were in a war to kill whites so that we can return the country to the, to its people. We wanted to show the then apartheid government that we were engaged in a war with them.

MR SIBANYONI: This Committee was shown two pictures, two photos. In the photo there was Mr Schroeder and then in that picture he looks more, I means he looks dark. He doesn't look more white. In fact I would say he looks darker than myself. What is you comment about that? In other words my question is best to say it was not possible for you to make a mistake, to mistake him for a white person. What do you say about that?

MR MAKOALA: Who is he on these two photos?

MR SIBANYONI: He is standing on the extreme left on the picture shown to you. My question is that it was not possible to mistake him for a white person. He clearly looks not white. What is your response?

MR MAKOALA: What I can say is that as he was amongst white and his skin colour was a bit clear and as I have said that it was in the morning and misty. One couldn't right away realise that that person was a Coloured because the car was moving by then. It was not standing still. Maybe if the car was not, was motionless, we could have been able to see whether he was a Coloured or a white person. And if you can look at this picture you can see that this person's skin is clear. He is a, he's white. So one can't tell the difference between the person and a white person when this person is in a misty surrounding.

MR SIBANYONI: ...(inaudible) amongst white, which whites are you referring to?

MR MAKOALA: I thought the people in that bakkie were all white.

MR SIBANYONI: Did Mrs Brummer look the same as Mr Schroeder?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, because they are both white.

MR SIBANYONI: No further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: I would like to clear up a few matters. Let's clear up the first one. You said one of the problems, as I understand your evidence, in seeing Mr Schroeder was that it was in misty surroundings in the morning. Is that so?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: So was it early in the morning?

MR MAKOALA: I can't remember exactly what time it was, but if I can estimate, it was about something past seven. I can't remember exactly what the time was, but because it was misty, it looked as if it was very early in the morning.

CHAIRPERSON: It is usually misty in the morning in that part of the world.

MR MAKOALA: It was winter by then. By the time we went there carrying out attacks, on that day it was misty, but on other days there was no mist.

CHAIRPERSON: I'm afraid I have some difficulty in accepting that November was winter. You agree it is not winter, it's well into summer?

MR MAKOALA: What I am trying to explain is that by then it was not really winter, but on that day it was cold.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) there was no mist in the morning. I mean you could see clearly, couldn't you?

MR MAKOALA: Maybe if I was a Commander, I could have thought about that, but because I was not a Commander I couldn't give instructions on what to do. I'll wait for the weather to clear up.

CHAIRPERSON: And, as you have told us, it was early in the morning, just some time after seven. Most of the people travelling to Sterkspruit at that time of day would have been workers, wouldn't they? People going to work in Sterkspruit?

MR MAKOALA: I didn't know whether those people were going to Sterkspruit, or driving past.

CHAIRPERSON: But that is the time of day when people go to work, isn't it?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: See, that's what's been suggested, is that you were targeting workers for some purpose.

MR MAKOALA: No, we were not targeting workers. We were targeting white people because on that day we were supposed to attack whites, not caring whether they work. But the whole thing is that we were going attack whites.

CHAIRPERSON: And you then, on a previous occasion you've told us, attacked some other person on that road with petrol bombs, but not cause any damage. With molotov cocktails.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: It appears from the information that that was Mr van Rooyen, who worked in Sterkspruit in the bakery. And you've told us that was the only person you attacked on that day, do you remember that?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Dolo told us you attacked more than one person, but you have been quite adamant that you only attacked one person on that day, and that was the man from the bakery.

MR MAKOALA: May you please repeat your question, sir?

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) you have told us about, you are quite adamant you only attacked one person, one car driven by a white. You threw molotov cocktails on it and then you went home.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I remember that.

CHAIRPERSON: And you were told who to attack by you Commander?

MR MAKOALA: May you please repeat.

CHAIRPERSON: You were told who to attack by your Commander. He was there in charge of the operation.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you've told us a moment ago that you, as I recollect, you say that you were just a soldier.

MR MAKOALA: It is so.

CHAIRPERSON: But on the first operation you went out on, you went out as a leader didn't you?

MR MAKOALA: I think that was still about the operation at Lady Grey where I was a soldier. We have not talked about other operation.

CHAIRPERSON: You were a leader on the first operation you went out, weren't you?

MR MAKOALA: As I have said that I have been involved in operations, I can't remember which operation came first and which one came second. Can you please remind me, Mr Chairman, which one is the first operation.

CHAIRPERSON: In your statement you made, which has been referred to a number of times, you said it was to go and set a farm on fire, and Phila told you that you would be the leader. You went out with petrol bombs and pangas. Do you remember it?

INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on. I can't interpret.

CHAIRPERSON: Page 37, annexure "B", bottom portion of the page. Are you showing it to him, Mr Mthembu?

MR MTHEMBU: Yes, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I agree.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) that you had in fact discussed this statement with him. He is aware of the contents?

MR MTHEMBU: That's correct, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Now, you've told us about the leaders of units who you went on operations with, but who gave you general instructions as to the aims of APLA?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I know about that.

CHAIRPERSON: Who was it?

MR MAKOALA: We used to receive instructions from Comrade Phila Pawa.

CHAIRPERSON: Who?

MR MAKOALA: Pawa, Phila.

CHAIRPERSON: And who was higher up the train?

MR MAKOALA: By then Comrade Phila Dolo had not arrived in our unit.

CHAIRPERSON: You ...(inaudible) in you application form, page 1, paragraph 11(b), you set out the details of this. Are you reading what you set out there?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I'm reading it.

CHAIRPERSON: Is what you set out there correct? Were these orders issued by ...(intervention)

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And who then issued the orders?

MR MAKOALA: It was Comrade Phila Dolo. When he gave us these instructions we were sitting together with Comrade Lethlapha Mphahlele, but the person who was giving out the instructions, the Comrade I was under, he was Comrade Phila Pawa.

CHAIRPERSON: What you say in your application is the orders were issued by Mr L Mphahlele. That's what you say there, isn't it?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I said that.

CHAIRPERSON: Is that the truth?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is the truth. Comrade Mphahlele was a High Commander.

MR MTHEMBU: Can I, sorry, Mr Chairperson. Can I take you to the incident where the lady teachers were stopped, and I am referring you to page no 13 of the second bundle, and I just want to get a clear picture as to how they were stopped. Because according to Mrs Booysens you people pointed firearms at them, but according to the affidavit of Mosesiwe Dlepu, I will read it ...(inaudible)

Where you all in the middle of the road, all four of you?

MR MAKOALA: We were not all in the road.

MR MTHEMBU: But ...(inaudible) Mr Dolo raised his right hand. What actions did you do, what did you do the other three of you?

MR MAKOALA: I was standing next to him by then.

MR MTHEMBU: The other two, what did they do?

MR MAKOALA: We were on one side of the road, all of us, although we were not standing in the same area. It is me and Comrade Dolo who went to the car. The other two were standing a bit away from the car.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. No, I'm sorry, one other point. Mr Mthembu we have as you know, you've been given a copy some time ago, we've all been given copies, of the confession, it's called, that he made. There's nothing in that that he wants to raise, is there? I don't propose to put the whole of it to him, but if there's anything that you think ought be raised, this is your opportunity to raise it. Various portions have been put to him.

MR MTHEMBU: Mr Chairman, my instructions of that statement is that the statement was not made voluntarily as such, but it was initiated through torture and other means, but not the whole contents thereof. Some aspects of it are indeed the truth, like for instance the personal ...(indistinct) of the applicant.

CHAIRPERSON: So you have no objections to the reference to it?

MR MTHEMBU: No.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you.

MR PRIOR: Just one last question, Chairperson. The handwriting on this form, your application form, that's not your handwriting is it?

MR MAKOALA: No, it is not my handwriting.

MR PRIOR: Whose handwriting is it?

MR MAKOALA: It is Oupa Khotle's handwriting.

MR PRIOR: I thought you said you filled this form out on your own? That was your evidence to us earlier. No-one helped you fill it out you said.

MR MAKOALA: What happened is that I was reading the story to him and he would write what I was saying. The reason for this is that I can't write English correctly. I can't understand English correctly, or well. But what happened is that I was reading the story to him and he was writing what I was saying.

MR PRIOR: Are you sure that this is not Mr Mbandwa's handwriting.

MR MAKOALA: No.

MR PRIOR: No, what?

MR MAKOALA: No, I don't know Mbandwa. I know only Oupa who helped me to write my story.

MR PRIOR: Mbandwa is a lawyer that went around helping people fill out their application forms.

MR MAKOALA: No, I don't know him.

ADV SANDI: You said Oupa assisted you to complete this form.

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is so.

ADV SANDI: You were telling him what to put in the form, what to say in the form and he was writing?

MR MAKOALA: His work was only to write, it was me who was reading the story to him. He would translate what I was saying in Sotho to English.

ADV SANDI: At the end of that exercise did the two of you go together through the statement to see if, through the application form, I'm sorry, to see if it reflected correctly what you have said to him he must write in the application form?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, he read it to me, trying to explain to me what I have said to him and I agreed with him with everything and then the application was made.

ADV SANDI: I take it that even at that stage he was simply telling you what he had written in the application form, because you cannot really read English, is that correct?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I believe that he was telling me all truth about what was written there, because he is my Comrade. He wouldn't lie to me.

MR PRIOR: He was your Comrade. He was present with you at your base for some of this time, not so?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, it is true.

MR PRIOR: He even did an operation with you?

MR MAKOALA: Yes, I once went with him to an operation.

MR PRIOR: So he would have had personal knowledge of some of the facts in here? Because he was present at your base, correct?

MR MAKOALA: I think he only knew about one operation where he accompanied me.

MR PRIOR: No further questions, Chairperson.

ADV SANDI: Mr Chairman, that is Mr Makoala's testimony.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I notice it is 12h45. I intend calling members of, or a member of Mr Tsemane's family. I have made contact with Mr Schroeder's family. I understand the brother-in-law will be coming to see me shortly. Would this be an opportune time to take the lunch adjournment now, and then to reconvene possibly at 13h30.

CHAIRPERSON: And you'll also have the necessary police and other evidence, the medical evidence?

MR PRIOR: I'll be, I'll endeavour to have that, I ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And we have photographs of pointings out, but not were of what was pointed out, and really they are very little value without someone giving evidence as to what they in fact show, and the post mortem report, as you well know, are nearly illegible, and it may well be of some importance to have medical evidence as to the ...

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, we will adjourn now till 13h30.

CHAIRPERSON: Before we start, I would like to make a few remarks. We have been given a copy of a statement. Apparently for the purposes of ensuring that it is delivered directly to Mr Dullah Omar, the Minister of Justice. I would like to explain that we have no direct contact with the Minister and no method of ensuring direct delivery to him, and I would suggest that those people who wish to make contact with him, do so through the Department of Justice itself. I hope they understand what I'm saying in this regard and we shall however endeavour to bring it to the attention of interested parties.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I wish to call Mr Oelofse regarding the photographs which appear from page 17 of bundle "B", 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, and I hand up to the Committee a statement of Mr Oelofse, in which he just incorporates, encapsulates the pointings out in an affidavit and may that affidavit be marked "C". Mr Oelofse wishes to give evidence in Afrikaans.

MR LAX: That's fine. Would you please rise Mr Oelofse.

MR OELOFSE (duly sworn in states)

MR PRIOR: Mr Oelofse is it correct that you are in service of the South African Police Force?

MR OELOFSE: I'm at the Crime Information Service at Aliwal North, that's correct.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct that during October 1995 you were entrusted with the investigation into this matter?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: On the 10th of October 1995 at 07h30 in the morning you and Mr Gomada from the former Transkei Police Force as well as Sergeant Adoons and Mrs Dlephu went to the Sterkspruit side of the Lady Grey Sterkspruit Road in order to point out certain points.

MR OELOFSE: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: I'm now referring, did you organise that an air photo should be taken of the scene?

MR OELOFSE: Yes, I did.

MR PRIOR: Maybe we can go back to the air photo at a later stage. If you turn to page 18, is that Mrs Dlephu who stands there?

MR OELOFSE: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Which point is she showing there?

MR OELOFSE: She's pointing out where the vehicle in which she was driving and the other vehicle, the Telkom vehicle, their position, as well as the position of the attackers when they shot at them. That's the shooting took place.

MR PRIOR: And Mrs Dlephu, was the one of the teachers in the bakkie who was then heisted, or hijacked? If you turn to page 19, that's photo 3, photograph 3 that's Sergeant Adoons and the other police officer, Mr Gomada?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct yes.

MR PRIOR: And what are they referring to there? Which point are they showing?

MR OELOFSE: That's the point where Mr Schroeder's body on the tarmac was found.

MR PRIOR: Is it correct, in the backdrop you see a little bridge there, and in evidence the previous referred to that bridge, is that correct?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: And then page 20. The place where the two gentlemen are standing, now that's off the bridge, is that correct?

MR OELOFSE: Yes, that's in the donga underneath the bridge.

MR PRIOR: And what are they pointing out there?

MR OELOFSE: That is where the bakkie and the bodies of Mr Tsemane and Mrs Brummer was found.

MR PRIOR: And that corresponds with the photographs of the bakkie which we can see on page 23 and page 24?

MR OELOFSE: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: And that's in bundle "B". Then page 21, is that where, the point where Sergeant Gomada and Adoons are standing, is that where Mr Schroeder was lying, but from the Lady Grey side?

MR OELOFSE: No, that's the position where the first attack initially took place and where the vehicle came to a standstill.

MR PRIOR: In other words that was the bakkie Mr Schroeder was driving?

MR OELOFSE: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: I'm now coming to the aerial photograph, and I'm going to ask Mr Oelofse to identify photographs 18, 19, 20, 21, that is the pointings out. May I possibly, unfortunately we have the original before us which was marked a short while ago. Points A, B and C, but those points do not appear on the Committee's bundles. I don't know whether we should mark them now, or maybe show the original around, possibly.

Mr Oelofse I refer to the aerial photo which appears on page 17 of bundle "B" and that's photograph 1 in the original bundle. In the foreground at the bottom of the page, that's where ...(indistinct) is situated, not true?

MR PRIOR: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: And if you go up with the road and you cross the bridge and that's toward Sterkspruit, is that correct?

MR OELOFSE: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: Now on the original photograph the point where Mr Schroeder's bakkie came to a standstill and the points which appear on page 21. Where is that point on the aerial photograph?

MR OELOFSE: It would be point A. If you look at the photograph there are two vehicles and another vehicle a bit further on. That's the relevant vehicle pointed out.

CHAIRPERSON: There appears to be white line going across the photograph. Yes. So is that vehicle parked on the road where Schroeder's car was found?

MR OELOFSE: That was a schematic representation of the point that was shown to me and then a vehicle was placed there.

MR PRIOR: Now the second point, must now the two, Mr Adoons and Gomada pointed out to you, that point which we find on page 19. Where's that point on the aerial photograph?

MR OELOFSE: That's just above the, halfway through the photograph. The beginning of the two white lines which indicate the rails next to the road.

MR PRIOR: The top part of that double barrier, or the bottom part? I'm just not clear.

MR OELOFSE: It's at the bottom, bottom point. It's on the right hand side, next to the road.

MR PRIOR: And then the third point which Mrs Dlephu pointed out to you, that's now where, where the teachers engaged the attackers. That's point C, not true?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct yes.

MR PRIOR: And where does that, where can we find that point?

MR OELOFSE: If you look, if you look at point, go from point B and you follow the road towards Sterkspruit then the road makes a turn, and then there's holes next to the road. That would be the position.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) the points marked for the Committee and my learned friends' attention.

Mr Oelofse ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Is point B, that is where Schroeder's body was found?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: And it wasn't the photograph taken from the Sterkspruit side of the bridge?

MR OELOFSE: Yes. It's taken from the Sterkspruit side

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) standing on that side of the bridge?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct. That's the Sterkspruit side.

CHAIRPERSON: B is at presently marked on the other side. I don't know if I just ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, it was my mistake. B is where the vehicle was found off the road, I do apologise. The body was found beyond the white rails on the Sterkspruit side.

CHAIRPERSON: Up towards where car C was?

MR PRIOR: Yes, so I do apologise to the Committee. Maybe can we mark that point D?

CHAIRPERSON: And which car was found at your original B?

MR PRIOR: It was the bakkie of Mr Tsemane.

CHAIRPERSON: Was it found down on the bottom?

MR PRIOR: Down, down in the donga yes.

Mr Chairman I don't want there to be any confusion. On the aerial photograph the two solid white lines that are about an inch in length do not depict the bridge. It's the barrier lines on the curve, on the ascent. Crash barriers, yes. So the body was just below that, according to, maybe Mr Oelofse can clarify that. I don't want there to be confusion. Because, sorry, the, in photograph 3, that's at page 19, one sees the bridge behind the two witnesses pointing out. Those aren't crash barriers which one sees clearly on the aerial photograph. I don't know if that's clear, but the body was found between the bridge and the crash barriers.

MR LAX: If we understand you correctly, if the person who took this photograph number 3 were to turn around and face in the other direction, what you would see would be those crash barriers that are quite evident on this aerial photograph. Is that correct?

MR PRIOR: Maybe Mr Oelofse ...(inaudible).

MR OELOFSE: Can you just repeat that please.

MR LAX: What I'm trying to find out is the crash barriers that are very evident on the aerial photograph has two very obvious white lines.

MR OELOFSE: Yes.

MR LAX: Are they further above where these two gentlemen are standing, or actually in the, in the direct, or actually, they are facing in the direction of those crash barriers. Is that correct?

MR OELOFSE: That's correct yes.

MR LAX: So not behind them. It's in fact in front of them.

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

MR LAX: So what I had said was if the person who took the photograph had turned around and taken another photograph the other way, you would clearly see those crash barriers?

MR OELOFSE: Yes.

MR PRIOR: I just want to go back to photograph 2. I just want to be clear in my own mind. There are 3 points marked on that photograph. Mrs Tsemane is pointing to the middle, at least Mrs Dlephu is pointing to the middle one. What exactly do those three beacons represent again? Just help me.

MR OELOFSE: Chairman if you look at that photo, I'm not quite, if you look at 2(a) on page 18, that's the schematic representation of the vehicles as they were, and at the middle point there's and, there's indicators to which Mrs Dlephu is pointing. That's where the attackers were at that point and when they fired at the other vehicle.

MR PRIOR: Which, there's one vehicle across the road at right angles to the road, and there's one vehicle in the lane.

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Now which ...(inaudible) represent?

MR OELOFSE: The one at right angles represents the vehicle in which Mrs Dlephu was driven, driving. The other one was a representation of the vehicle which stopped. That of Mr Selly.

MR PRIOR: That's according to Mrs Dlephu's recollection of how far apart they were.

MR OELOFSE: That's correct.

MR PRIOR: And the applicants and their Comrades were in the middle, roughly?

MR OELOFSE: That's correct, you honour.

MR PRIOR: It's much clearer, thank you very much. Are you able to give us an estimate of what distance is covered by this aerial photograph, from point A to roughly point C? Did you measure that out at all as far as you can recall?

MR OELOFSE: I cannot remember exactly what the distances were, but round about a kilometre from A to B and just less that a kilometre from B to C.

MR PRIOR: I just want to get clarity. The body of Mr Schroeder, if we can mark it D on the aerial photo, was just underneath the left barrier as it, you pointed it out on photo 17. Is that correct?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Just to help us again. If one would take the centre point on the bridge. How far would that point be from that, approximately? If we look at photograph 3 we can see that, but there may be some foreshortening. I don't want to get it wrong.

MR OELOFSE: I cannot remember exactly, but it wasn't very far. I would say around 50 metres.

MR PRIOR: Mr Oelofse if I can just focus your attention on bundle "A", photos 43, 44 and 45. Where you involved in those pointing outs?

MR OELOFSE: No, I wasn't.

MR PRIOR: But as those scenes are depicted are they the same ones as the ones we have just referred to?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Could you tell us in 43 what is he pointing out there?

MR OELOFSE: It shows the same bridge where the vehicle of Mr Tsemane and Brummer ended up in the donga.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) understanding is of no importance. He's not ...(inaudible) on the spot?

MR OELOFSE: No.

CHAIRPERSON: The same on 44.

MR OELOFSE: Chairperson 44 indicates the position and is pointing to where the vehicle was lying in the ditch.

CHAIRPERSON: Then why are the lampposts there, or telephone,

MR OELOFSE: That is correct.

CHAIRPERSON: ...(inaudible) rock there. Is that the same rock as we're been looking at in "B" 23?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct. It's the same rock that's lying there.

MR PRIOR: Mr Oelofse you didn't see this vehicle represented in "B" 23 at all, did you?

MR OELOFSE: No, I did not.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, may I be of some assistance. The photographs put up in bundle "A", those are photographs, I beg your pardon, photographs 43 and 44. I have the original bundle and the index simply refers to points 1 to 18. There were several pointings out and there is no detail as to what in fact there was pointing out. My understanding is that it seems that Mr Makoala took to the Police to various points, but there is no specific reference to what occurred at that point as far as the index is concerned.

May I just refer the Committee to page 35 of the bundle "A".

ADV SANDI: Did you say 35?

MR PRIOR: Page 35.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you finished?

MR PRIOR: Yes, I have no further questions.

CHAIRPERSON: Any cross-examination?

MR SIBANYONI: Mr Chairman I don't know what to, I've been trying my best to follow it, but I must consider I got lost somewhere about this whole thing. It makes me, puts me in a very difficult position to ask any questions regarding this sketches, but except to just to ask one point I think if I am not mistaken Mr Lax has asked. Can you, I'm not sure, the Committee will correct me if I'm wrong. Can you estimate the distance between the bridge and point B. If, what was the distance between the bridge and point B?

MR OELOFSE: You Honour, it is difficult to say. If I could make an estimate, it would be 20 metres from the side of the bridge up to where the vehicle was.

MR PRIOR: It would be the same distance, would it not, as it appears in the second, lower photo on "B" 23? The distance there is fairly clear.

MR OELOFSE: Yes, that is a straight line from the bridge up to where the vehicle is.

MR SIBANYONI: ...(inaudible) from the bridge can you also just roughly tell us from point, from point D to the bridge, can you estimate the distance? I know the distance you said is long, but I wanted just those.

MR OELOFSE: It is approximately from the middle of the

bridge 50 metres.

MR SIBANYONI: I know I said finally, Mr Chairman, but can you, am I correct to say that you were trying to reconstruct the incident that happened in 1992, three years thereafter with the lady who was involved in the incident?

MR OELOFSE: That is correct. Those were the points that they showed me and where we marked them and took the photographs.

MR SIBANYONI: Thank you Mr Chairman.

ADV SANDI: No questions, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman I hoped to have called Mr Fransisco who was a colleague of Mr van Rooyen from the bakery in Sterkspruit. Either he is not yet arrived. I then wish to call Miss Alda Tsemane, this is another sister.

MS H TSEMANE: I'm ...(indistinct) from Bloemfontein. I'm the eldest daughter of Mr James Tsemane.

ADV SANDI: ...(inaudible) swear her in.

MS H TSEMANE (duly sworn in states):

MR PRIOR: Madam, is it correct, you are the daughter of the deceased in this matter, Mr James Tsemane?

MS H TSEMANE: Yes, I'm the eldest daughter of the deceased.

MR PRIOR: You are talking on behalf of your widowed mother, Mrs Tsemane.

MS H TSEMANE: No, I'm talking on behalf of all the Tsemane children.

MR PRIOR: Where you at the time of your father's tragic death of the 19th of November 1992, where were you living?

MS H TSEMANE: I was in Bloemfontein.

MR PRIOR: And we understand from what we've heard that your father lived in Sterkspruit. Is that correct?

MS H TSEMANE: Yes that is correct.

MR PRIOR: And he worked at a bakery in Sterkspruit?

MS H TSEMANE: Yes.

MR PRIOR: Do you know, or do you remember the name of that bakery?

MS H TSEMANE: No, I don't remember the name of the bakery.

MR PRIOR: Yes, you've indicated that you'd like to talk on behalf of the children of the deceased. Could you proceed then and ask questions.

MS H TSEMANE: I would like to talk directly to the applicant. I wonder whether Mr Martin and James know of the cost to the people of the family members of the deceased. I'm not expecting answers from them, but I would like to hear how they feel about what they did. My father wasn't into politics. He was a very respected person in the community. He had no discrimination against anyone. He worked for his family and the community. He was also an assistant to "Sebota". My father never killed anyone to help the other person. He took my mum's friend away from her and many children. Some of these children had to leave school because they had financial problems. Presently as I am speaking here some of the children who have finished school were helped by the white person that you hated. Even your, even you own brothers and sisters are being helped by white guys whom your parents worked for, work for. I would like to withdraw from killing white people. We have learnt a lot of things from white people, whether they are bad or good. My sister asked James whether he was asking for forgiveness from us only, although my father and Ms Brummer got killed, whose blood mixed in the car. As I understand you mixed the blood of the two people to make a sacrifice for freedom. Now how do you divide the blood of the two deceased when you ask for forgiveness from only us?

MR PRIOR: We must apologise for that sound you keep hearing on your machine. It's caused by the electrical power, it's not very stable, unfortunately, so it's nothing we can do about it. Just so that everyone understands.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, I don't want to stop this witness from continuing to tell us this, but is this the right stage of the proceedings? Is she going to give us any evidence dealing with the merits of the application?

MR PRIOR: Unfortunately I was going to call Miss Alda Tsemane, and this lady came in her stead. I hadn't precognised her at all, but I think she, having commenced, I don't think she's got very far to go, and ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we'll continue, but then I think we should take care of other witnesses at this stage, deal with the merits.

MR PRIOR: Yes, I'm alive to that. Well she going to be, if we stop her now, ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Let her continue if you say she hasn't much longer to go.

MR PRIOR: Please proceed ma’am.

MS H TSEMANE: As I said that you've mixed the blood of these two deceased and you want to divide it again. My father died because of a white person. I wonder how are you going to die, you. What is the death that is accepted in heaven? We are unable to forgive you because you ask for forgiveness about things we have already forgotten about. You are only causing us heartbreak about the past. You were only out to please your Comrades, that you call Africans, whose names you don't want to disclose. All you want to do is to appear on TV. I can't see any truth in what you've said. Let justice take its course against you. This is your own medicine. Taste it. We thank the Truth Commission because today we know how our dad died. You the killers, I am merciful to your parents because no parents want to bore, or to bear a killer. I thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: I take it you have no questions yet.

MR SIBANYONI: None, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Madam. I call Miss Alda Tsemane.

MS A TSEMANE (duly sworn in states):

MR PRIOR: Miss Tsemane, I just need some information about your father. We understand he was married to your mother. You mother still is living, is that correct.

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, she's still alive.

MR PRIOR: During 1992 at the time of his death, he was living with your mother in Sterkspruit?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes it is true.

MR PRIOR: Did you also live in the Sterkspruit area?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, it is true.

MR PRIOR: How many children did your father and mother have? Can you just tell the Committee, how many daughters, how many sons?

MS A TSEMANE: We are many. I think we were eighteen. There were five sons and thirteen daughters. All in all we are eighteen and one has passed away.

MR PRIOR: Were you a close family?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, Sir.

MR PRIOR: Now, Mr Chairman, may I just ask that the public, particular the second row, they seem to find the evidence of this witness particular amusing. If the public would just be reminded that this is quite a difficult time for the family and that they respect that feeling of the family, please. I'm indebted to the Committee. I hope that's been translated.

Miss Tsemane, your father worked at the bakery, is that correct? In Sterkspruit.

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, it is true, he worked at the bakery, until his death.

MR PRIOR: And how long had he worked there?

MS A TSEMANE: He started working there in 1970.

MR PRIOR: And we understand, we've heard that Mr van Rooyen was, was he the owner or the manager of the bakery? He also worked there.

MS A TSEMANE: He was the manager of the bakery. Initially the bakery belonged to Jimmy Nathan, and when he left he left it with Mr van Rooyen.

MR PRIOR: Mr Louis Fransisco, was he also employed at the bakery?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: And did you know those two men? Apart from just knowing of them, did you know them on a personal basis?

MS A TSEMANE: I only knew that as working at the bakery, because they stayed in Lady Grey, not Sterkspruit.

MR PRIOR: And like Mrs Brummer, is it correct they commuted on a daily basis from Lady Grey to Sterkspruit to work at their respective employment?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, it is so. They used to go to their work places everyday.

MR PRIOR: Now, in questions that you've put to Mr Makoala this morning, you indicated that Mr van Rooyen, at least, had been involved in an attack, and it seems that that was an attack referred to by the applicants where they were trying out their petrol bombs. Did you know of that incident from what the community was saying, or from any information that came to your attention?

MS A TSEMANE: As I said earlier, I said Mr van Rooyen was working with my dad. That's how I came to know of that.

MR PRIOR: Do you know if Mr Fransisco was involved in any incident on that road while going to Sterkspruit to the bakery? If you don't know about that then say so.

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I also heard about that.

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Fransisco will be coming to the Committee to tell us about that.

Now Mrs Brummer, you told me yesterday that you knew Mrs Brummer?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I knew Mrs Brummer. I used to work next-door to her.

MR PRIOR: And did any member of your family work at the same shop as Mrs Brummer?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, my sister and my auntie used to work together with Mrs Brummer.

MR PRIOR: Now, Mrs Brummer's widower, Mr Brummer, has indicated that he does not wish to attend these proceedings. He indicated in a letter that he is still suffering. Are you able to just tell us a little bit about Mrs Brummer? How was she regarded by the community at Sterkspruit? And I am referring to the black community.

MS A TSEMANE: We received Mrs Brummer as one of our, as one of us. The only difference was her skin colour. For example she could speak Xhosa, she would only speak English when speaking to her husband and those who worked for her. Every time he went to the shop he would be accompanied by people, mostly people like us. He was always with us because by then we had forgotten that he was a white person because of his behaviour amongst us.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) Mrs Brummer.

INTERPRETER: The Speaker's microphone is not on. I can't interpret.

MS A TSEMANE: If you want me to tell you about both of them, all I can say is that they were the same.

MR PRIOR: In ...(inaudible) interpretation said "he" and not "she". We thought you were, we weren't sure if you were talking about Mrs Brummer or Mr Brummer when you were saying "he was always with us" and that sort of thing, so I'm just not clear. Can you clarify that? Are you referring to Mrs Brummer or Mr Brummer?

MS A TSEMANE: I was talking about Mrs Brummer because I thought I was being asked about her.

MR PRIOR: And Mr Schroeder, did you know him?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I knew him. I knew him from Fourways when I was working next-door.

MR PRIOR: The photographs, can you identify Mr Brummer on these photographs?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I can.

MR PRIOR: The photograph I wish to tender as EXHIBIT, as D, sorry, yes, D and I mark it D(1).

He's standing in a grey suite, is that correct? At a wedding.

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, that is correct. It is him.

MR PRIOR: On D2 he's standing on the right hand side of the photograph next to the lady with the baby. He's in a white T-shirt with, it looks like short pants.

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, it is him.

MR PRIOR: Did he also work with Mrs Brummer?

MS A TSEMANE: It is so.

MR PRIOR: And how did, what was his employment? What was his, did he also work for Fairways, or Score, sorry, Score Furnishers?

MS A TSEMANE: He was working at Score. He came after it came to the light that Mrs Brummer was about to be transferred when he arrived.

MR PRIOR: Mr Schroeder was a Coloured man, is that correct?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: We heard evidence regarding the applicants and where they stayed in Jozanna's Hoek. Did you know that area?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I know the place.

MR PRIOR: Directions or description of how, or directions how to get, an explanation of how to get to the house was given by both applicants. Are you able to identify that house from that, that evidence that you heard?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I can.

MR PRIOR: Do you know the owner of that house?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I know the owner.

MR PRIOR: You also in your questioning of the applicants, well particularly, no, not, I rephrase that, Mr Makoala. It seems, you seem to suggest in those questions that the attacks carried out before the 19th of November where Mr Fransisco and Mr van Rooyen were involved and then, Mr Brummer, Mrs Brummer, Mr Schroeder and your father, Mr Tsemane, was part of a, if I can put it, a conspiracy of sorts to effectively get rid of the white people working in Sterkspruit. In other words, only those people working in Sterkspruit were targeted. That seems to, what I understand from your question. Am I right in that understanding?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, you are right.

MR PRIOR: Is there any information that you have for this Committee regarding those questions that you actually put to the applicant this morning, or the reasons why you put that to the applicant? Are you able to give us some indication why you put those questions? Whether there's any information out there that is available to the Committee?

MS A TSEMANE: As I've said earlier, I was born here and I grew up here and I attended school in Sterkspruit, and I'm also working there. I know people of Sterkspruit very much. I started to work in a store in 1977. I know all the business people in Sterkspruit. What made me to ask him the question I was asking, is because I used to hear about everything that happened in town because I was most of the times in town, as I worked there. That is why I asked those questions. And I also realised that there was something they were hiding away. When I asked him where he was accommodated when he first arrived, before he was taken to Jozanna, because Jozanna is outside town, which is a veld that they could use for their training. I think that they knew where they got accommodation when they first arrived. I think I asked earlier when he could deny when I said I used to see him earlier on. Especially when the schools were closed.

MR PRIOR: Where did you see Mr Mokoala?

MS A TSEMANE: I saw him entering a shop. He was one of the people who used to frequent the place.

MR PRIOR: Did you recognise the first applicant, Phila Martin Dolo, or Martin Phila Dolo?

MS A TSEMANE: No, I won't say I know him. There were so many people entering that place, I couldn't know all of them, because there was nothing I was suspecting at that time. But I knew that they belonged to the PAC.

ADV SANDI: When you say "they" who are you referring to? You knew that "they" were belonging to the PAC. Who was that?

MS A TSEMANE: I am talking about the boys who used to frequent that place. We knew that they belonged to the PAC. They used to wear PAC T-shirts.

MR PRIOR: The Sterkspruit Hotel, I think it was also called the Moleko Hotel, did you know that that hotel has also been robbed or attacked? The people in that hotel, the employees?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, I know the hotel had been attacked once.

MR PRIOR: Did you know who the owners were of that hotel?

MS A TSEMANE: From 1987 until 1991 I was working for Tamaleko, who was the site-owner, but the hotel was built by white people, and the control was with them.

MR PRIOR: And after this attack, do you know what happened to the white people?

MS A TSEMANE: No, I don't know what happened to them. I just couldn't see them anymore.

MR PRIOR: When you say that, did you not see them in Sterkspruit anymore after that attack?

MS A TSEMANE: No, I didn't see them again.

MR PRIOR: Sterkspruit Garage. We understand from Mr Makoala that that was also attacked in 1992. Did you know about that? Did you get to learn about that?

MS A TSEMANE: I just hear from this sitting that the Sterkspruit Garage was also attacked.

MR PRIOR: Could you tell us who the owner was of that garage during 1992?

MS A TSEMANE: From 1977 up to 1987 in July I was working for Mr Charles Nathan, who was the owner of that garage. He has his brother called Duncan Nathan.

MR PRIOR: And after that, do you know who was the owner? Did he sell it ...(intervention)

MS A TSEMANE: No, they never left. They were always there, and Mr Duncan Nathan was most of the time there.

MR PRIOR: Is there anything else you wish to tell the Committee about this matter?

MS A TSEMANE: What matter are you referring to, Sir?

MR PRIOR: The death of your father and who may have been responsible, or anything around that. Anything additional to what you've told us.

MS A TSEMANE: I don't think there is anything that I can say because I have already asked the applicants how he feel about my father's death.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) at this time.

MS A TSEMANE: It seems like there is nothing I want to add.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: I think I would like to explore something before she's cross-examined. I think it would be unfair to leave it last, because I understood that when she was asking questions she named certain persons and she also put it to the applicants that they were being used in some way. Shouldn't that be investigated at this stage, Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I'm indebted to the Committee. You indicated who Mr Makoala, the name of the person who owned the house at which they were house. I think it was Mr Pitso?

MS A TSEMANE: Yes, it is so.

MR PRIOR: You also indicated that, in your view, as you put it,

MS A TSEMANE: Repeat your question, Sir, I'm sorry.

MR PRIOR: But also Mr Mbele-Mbele?

MS A TSEMANE: I know Mr Mbele-Mbele.

MR PRIOR: ...(inaudible) Committee can guide me.

CHAIRPERSON: Developed now, and I think it's something that has to be investigated. I think they should be notified that their names have been raised if they wish to come and make any further representations. But I don't see how one can, if one is going to properly investigate what this witness appears to be raising, unless you suggest the whole matter be adjourned at this stage pending notice.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, I'm just alive to the decisions that have been handed down and the developments in the past, where, where people's identities have been revealed in the Committees also unexpectedly and where evidence has been led, or information has been given which is prejudicial to those people. I believe the, I believe they ought to be covered by Section 19 of the Act. That's why I'm loathed to possibly at this stage without any notice to them, to go to, I don't know what this witness is going to say. Maybe I should ask for a short adjournment that I may precognise her on this aspect.

CHAIRPERSON: And Mr Mbele-Mbele was mentioned in the papers that were put before us.

MR PRIOR: But he hadn't been given notice as a ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON: No, but he has already been mentioned in the statements. We'll take a short adjournment for you to precognise the witness properly.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior, I have had an opportunity of considering the matter, also of talking to the other persons representing the applicants. And it seems that if we proceed with this, other names may be mentioned of people who have had, not had notice, and I think it would be grossly unfair to them to proceed with it. Particularly when there hasn't been a full investigation and we don't know whether the, if any allegations are made, whether they can be justified. What I propose and the members of the Committee agree with me, is that we adjourn this matter temporarily to Tuesday for you to ascertain whether the matter is worth investigating fully, if so, how long it will take and matters of that nature, and we can decide on a final date next Tuesday. Do you have anything to say in that regard?

MR PRIOR: Yes, Mr Chairman, those were my fears at that stage, that's why I raised the matter. I'm in agreement with the Committee and I think that should be followed, that route.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, in the light of the fact that evidence is now being led, it was foreshadowed by the cross-examinations that other parties might be involved, and I stress the word "might", there is at present time no evidence before us showing

that any other party has committed any wrongful act, but it is a matter that clearly should be investigated and if necessary, proper notice given to the parties mentioned, which will necessitate as we all know, a further adjournment of the matter. So rather than cause more difficulties at the present time, we will adjourn till next Tuesday for preliminary enquiries to be made and to ascertain how long it shall take to investigate the matter fully and when we can conclude the hearing. Mr Mbandazayo, do you have anything to say?

MR MBANDAZAYO: None, Mr Chairman, I, nothing.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu?

MR MTHEMBU: Nothing Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: You, nothing further.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there is just one aspect that bothers me, or concerns me, is the fact that two names have been given up in evidence and I would ask the Committee to give a ruling whether the media, what weight they attack to that, because already I think the fact of the adjournment may alert the media to, to whatever ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: I don't think the names that have been mentioned, have only been the names of ...(inaudible). We have not got to the stage of any evidence on other aspects, which is why we're adjourning. We're not adjourning because they stayed at point A or point B. In fact, you will recollect the applicant this morning said they stayed by Mr Mbele-Mbele for three days.

MR PRIOR: Yes, at some other place. I would ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: And ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: My fear is that ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He had no recollection of this other gentleman.

MR PRIOR: My fear is simply that wrong influences be drawn by the media.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I don't think there is any suggestion, Mr Prior, that those names have anything to do with what we are now going to investigate.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: So, we're now going to adjourn this matter till next Tuesday, that is the 28th of April at 09h00, or would you like it, 09h00 all right for you gentlemen?

MR MBANDAZAYO: 09h00 would be suitable, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Very well, 09h00 on Tuesday the 28th.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, there's no further business today, we'll start with the new matter tomorrow.

CHAIRPERSON: At 09h00? Right, we will adjourn till 09h00 tomorrow morning.

MR PRIOR: 09h00. Please all rise.

CHAIRPERSON: Alright, are we ready?

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, the amnesty application of Steven Vusumzi Dolo, 0320/96 proceeds on the 23rd of April 1998. Mr Chairman, I understand there's a request by the transcribers that the panel members and the legal representatives identify themselves ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well they wanted them to do more than identify themselves, they want them to talk for some time so they can get to know the voices. We intended to do that this morning and have a special recording made, but unfortunately as matters developed we did not do that, and I see that Mr Mthembu is no longer with us.

MR PRIOR: Mr Mthembu seems to have a very distinct voice.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, we may think so, I don't know if the transcribers do. But could we place on record that appearing for the applicant is Mr Mbandazayo. Would you please put yourself on record. Describe where you practice and where you come from, and talk for a minute or so.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I confirm that, Mr Chairman. My name is Mbandazayo and my initials L, that is for Lungelo, and I'm representing the applicant. And I'm coming from East London where I am practising as an attorney. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, my names are Patrick Charles Prior. I'm an advocate with the Amnesty Committee. I'm the evidence leader. I've been conducting many of these matters with, involving APLA and I think my voice is pretty distinctive from the rest of the Committee. Thank you, Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Well I, my name is Andrew Wilson. I am a Judge and the Chairman of this Committee and I think the same applies to me. I think the people transcribing will have no problem recognising my voice. I will ask the various members of my Committee now to introduce themselves and say something.

MR SIBANYONI: My name is Jonas Ben Sibanyoni. While I'm a new member of the Amnesty Committee, but I think my voice is also distinct and I am from Pretoria and from a NGO - Non-Governmental Organisation on human rights. Thank you.

ADV SANDI: My name is Sikolelo Sandi. I'm originally from Grahamstown, but I now live in East London. I'm an advocate of the Supreme Court of South Africa. Before I joined the Amnesty Committee I was in the Human Rights Violations Committee, that is one of the Committees of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I also thought my voice is very different to everyone's. I think that's about all I can say.

MR LAX: Through you, Chairperson. My name is Ilan Lax. I'm an attorney from Pietermaritzburg. Like my colleague Ntsiki Sandi, I was a member of the Human Rights Violations Committee until I was appointed to the Amnesty Committee. Like my other colleague, Mr Sibanyoni, I'm quite new on the Amnesty Committee, but I wouldn't hesitate to suggest my voice was very distinctive, although I seem to, some people seem to think my manner is quite distinctive. I think that's enough time spent on this.

CHAIRPERSON: I hope that will assist the persons responsible for preparing the records, but before we go on with this matter, I would like to record something else that has happened today. My Mbandazayo, at the request of the Committee, and on behalf of the Committee, made contact with Mr Lethlapha Mphahlele, also known as Happy, a person whom he has acted for in the past and has advised on a number of occasions. The purpose of this was to inform Mr Mphahlele that he was an implicated party in the matter to be heard today, as well as that to be heard next week. He had already been supplied, as I understand it, with a list of all the matters set down for hearing and was thus fully informed of the matters. Having been informed that he was an implicated party and to what extent he informed Mr Mbandazayo that he had no intention of appearing and that the hearing should proceed in his absence. Have I recorded it correctly?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, I confirm that. That's what transpired between myself and Mr Mphahlele.

CHAIRPERSON: He was aware of what the allegations against him were, or were likely to be?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Correct, Mr Chairman. He's aware of the allegations against him.

CHAIRPERSON: Can I on behalf of the Committee as a whole express our gratitude to you for the trouble you have taken today to make contact with this gentleman to inform him of the position and to bring his answer back to us. It has saved us a considerable amount of time and trouble, and we are extremely grateful.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairman, the matter at hand, the Lady Grey Police Station attack, as you no doubt will have gleamed from the papers briefly, was an attack on the police station and on the 3rd of January 1992 at Lady Grey where certain members of the Police Force were having a braaivleis a handgrenade was thrown and certain shots were fired. However preceding the attack the applicant, it would appear, and others acquired a motor vehicle on the Sterkspruit Lady Grey Aliwal-North Road. It was a vehicle belonging to Mr Funchani and preceding that event another vehicle was shot at on the same road, a vehicle belonging to Mr Andele Mpela. May I also inform the Committee that as far as the victims are concerned, a schedule has been put before the Committee. The victims are listed there. Mr and Mrs, or Mr Roetz and Miss Roetz, Sergeant Martens, his wife and a Sergeant Veldsman. Out of those victims who have all been notified, only the Martens family responded. They are present at the hearing and they will no doubt make a submission later on, Mr Chairman. The other victims expressed no desire to participate on these proceedings. Mr Funchani is not present, however the family of the other person, Andile Mpela are present, Mr Chairman. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Carry on.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I want to also to put this on record that as I indicated in Chambers that I've just taken over the matter, and as such, Mr Chairman, I will be using the documents which are in the bundle regarding this matter. And also that, Mr Chairman, as we go along as usual he gives testimony reading the affidavit, he will allow for it as I consulted with him that there are certain things which needed to be put in the affidavit which are not there, as far as I am concerned which are necessary for this application. But maybe, before I do any other thing, Mr Chairman, may the applicant be sworn in.

CHAIRPERSON: If you have any problems don't hesitate to let us know. We'll do all we can to assist.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Mr Dolo would you please stand.

MR DOLO: (Duly sworn in, states)

MR PRIOR: Mr Dolo can you just speak a few words so that we can just hear whether the interpreters can hear you properly. Can you hear me properly?

MR DOLO: Yes, I can hear you.

MR PRIOR: Can you please just come a little bit closer to the microphone.

MR DOLO: Yes, I can hear.

MR PRIOR: Can you ...(inaudible) now. We'll just check these loudspeakers. That might be the problem.

Right, you can hear me?

MR DOLO: Yes, I can hear.

MR PRIOR: It seems to be connected to the, when they switch the interpreter's mikes on. Chairperson maybe we should just take a short adjournment while we sort this thing out. It's a bit difficult, it's just unfortunate.

CHAIRPERSON: I regret that we will once again have to adjourn, but I think you all know why now.

MR PRIOR: Mr Dolo, just to remind you that you're still under oath.

MR DOLO: Yes, I'm still under oath, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Dolo do you confirm that the affidavit which is in this bundle which is before the Committee, this affidavit was made by you and you abide by it?

MR DOLO: Yes, I confirm.

MR PRIOR: Mr Mbandazayo, are you referring to the affidavit at page 25 of the papers?

MR MBANDAZAYO: My, Chairman, it think it's ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Page 8, page 8, sorry.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, it's the affidavit at page 8 which is translated from page 15 which is typed from page 16, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: I'm referring to that affidavit.

MR PRIOR: Thank you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, as I indicated, as I go along there will be certain corrections in the affidavit and certain additions. Mr Chairman, it's not numbered, I will have difficulties, but I'll try explain which paragraph, but for the purposes of this hearing, Mr Chairman, I'd like us to use the typed one which is more clearer, which is from page 16. Mr Chairman I will start with the last paragraph of page 16 which the first one is self-explanatory. For Mr Dolo, I'll read you the last paragraph of this affidavit and I would like you to explain to the Committee in details as regard this paragraph:

Now, what I want you to tell the Committee, is the place where you met with Mphahlele and the details of the discussion regarding the attack at Lady Grey. Can you take the Committee through the steps in your meeting. What transpired in the meeting? Explain it in detail.

MR DOLO: It was in December 1991. We were in the house. It was myself Mphahlele and Vuyo Wilson. When Mphahlele came he told us that one day we will have to attach the Police Station in Lady Grey. He told us that he will come to us on that particular day. He will tell us all the details about when to leave.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Could you tell the Committee please where you met on the day of this meeting?

MR DOLO: We were at Jozanna's Neck.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Whose place was it, that you were, whose, whom or whose house was it that you were occupying at Jozanna's Neck?

MR DOLO: It was at Mbele-Mbele's place. My African Mbele-Mbele's place.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you. Mr Chairman I'll proceed to page 17,

MR PRIOR: Mr Mbandazayo it might be helpful, just if we follow the numbering that's already there, could we just number each paragraph after that. So the last one on that page 16 is 13 and then we go over the page, that's a continuation of the first one. The next one will be 14 and onwards.

MR MBANDAZAYO: 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20.

MR PRIOR: Correct.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.

MR PRIOR: It's easier just to refer to the numbering.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I'll proceed to paragraph 14. Now, in paragraph 14 it says that on the second day of January, Mr Chairman, I,

Mr Chairman, I think the correct date will be the 3rd of January. That's the day of the incident. Not the 2nd.

CHAIRPERSON: Well, perhaps he ought to correct his affidavit rather than you.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'll do that. Mr Dolo can you take the Committee through what happened then on the day of the incident. You have already told the Committee that Mr Lethlapha Mphahlele came to you and told you that you are going to attack Lady Grey's Police Station and you'll receive from him, you will hear from him. Now, can you tell the Committee what happened now on the day of the incident? Take us through the preparation.

MR DOLO: On the 3rd of January we were in Mbele-Mbele's home. Comrade Mphahlele told us that on that particular day we'll go to Lady Grey to attack the Police Station. On that same day Comrade Mphahlele showed us some guns. The R5, two pistols and a grenade. He told us that those were the arms that we were going to use. On that same day we left the house, we took the arms. I had an R5 rifle. We boarded a taxi. We left for Sterkspruit. When we arrived there at Sterkspruit we boarded another taxi that was going to Herschel. When we arrived there we left Comrade Mphahlele there in Herschel. Myself and Vuyosile we left. We were actually looking for a car. A bakkie, a van, the van that we would use when we were going to the Police Station. When we were on the way there was a van, a bakkie. We stopped this van. The owner refused to stop. I heard a sound. The van passed. We went on. We reached a certain point. We waited there. We waited. Another van came, a bakkie. We tried, we stopped this vehicle, we stopped this van. It also passed. There was a sound. We shot, it stopped. When it stopped we ran. We ran towards the van. There were two people inside. There was a lady and gentleman. They asked us not to kill them. We told them that we were not going to kill them. We were just, we wanted them to borrow us their car. We would use it and we would bring it back again. We asked for the keys. The keys were inside the car. I went straight to the driver's seat and Vuyo came in also. I drove the car. We went on to collect Happy in Herschel where we had left him earlier. Comrade Happy became the driver. We went, we take the direction Lady Grey. On our way there, my self and Vuyo. We alighted the vehicle from the front seat, we boarded at the back of the, of the van. We went strait to the Lady Grey Police Station. When we arrived there the Lady Grey Police Station we went past, we looked at this Police Station. There was someone outside. When we came back again we find that that person was still there. Myself, I shot, when I shot, when I was still busy shooting, Vuyo threw the handgrenade. We went on. We went back to Sterkspruit. When we arrived at Sterkspruit, we parked the car on the main road, in front of the main road. We went on. We went to a certain point. Comrade Happy fetched, fetched some transport. He came with this transport. He took us back to Comrade Mbele-Mbele's place where we spent the night.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Tell the Committee, what type of, of grenade that you used. You have already told the Committee that you were having an R5 rifle, what type of weapon, what type of pistol was Happy, if I'm not mistaken you mentioned that they were having pistol, what type of pistols where they, Happy and Vuyo were having? The grenade and the pistol. Can you still remember, can you tell us?

MR DOLO: It was a stick grenade. The pistols were 9mm and the revolver. What I'm not sure about was Happy's, I'm not sure which one was carrying one of those, I'm not sure between Happy and the, and Vuyo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, do you know what happened to the first van that you tried to stop?

MR DOLO: The first van that we tried to stop, what happened there, I heard a gunshot. This car passed, went on. I don't know what happened. The car passed, I don't what happened.

ADV SANDI: Sorry, Mr Mbandazayo. Can I ask the applicant, are you able to say who was shooting? You say you heard a shot, where was it coming from, was it coming from you or who was it from?

MR DOLO: It was Vuyo who was shooting.

MR PRIOR: Just one second, I just want you to clarify for me. Who was driving that other vehicle that Vuyo shot at?

MR DOLO: We could not see the driver, I don't know his name, I don't the name.

MR PRIOR: Could you see if whether was a black person or a white person?

MR DOLO: It was a black person.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can, can you tell the Committee what was the reason why Vuyo fired the shot? Do you know what was the reason?

MR DOLO: The, Vuyo's aim, he actually wanted to shoot in the air to scare those people, to actually force them to stop, to make them stop. Because we wouldn't aim at the driver or the tyres, because if we shoot the driver the car, we, we would not be able to use the car, because it would capsize. And if we shot the tyres we wouldn't use the car also, because it couldn't move, it wouldn't move.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, who shot in the second car after it also passed you?

MR DOLO: I shot to the second car. I shot at the second car.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee, did you shoot at the car or did you shoot in the air? Can you explain to the Committee, or to the driver?

MR DOLO: When the car was coming towards our direction, I pointed at the car. When it passed a little bit, I shot in the air. And when it was at a distance in front of us it stopped and we ran to the car, that's when we took the car.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, I understand that you were finally arrested for that offence and you were sentenced to a long time, for a long time in jail. Can you be able to explain to the Committee whether the owners of the other car were present in court to give evidence with regard to that car? With regard to what happened to their car, which you said it passed, it never stopped?

MR PRIOR: Is this the first car, Mr Mbandazayo?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman, the first car which it never stopped. Can you be able to tell the court, whether they were in court, where you convicted for that offence or not?

MR DOLO: With the first bakkie there was no charge, I was never sentenced for that, and on that same day even, I, I was surprised today to get to know that something happened on that day. Even when the Investigation Officer was asking me of some of the things he didn't bring that to me. I'm surprised that something happened on that day.

MR PRIOR: Just, what do you mean you ...(indistinct), happened on that day? What are you trying to tell us?

MR DOLO: With the first bakkie I knew that nothing happened, because there was no charge that was laid against me, against us concerning that car. I didn't hear anything about it.

MR PRIOR: Are you saying that you are surprised it has surfaced in these papers, is that what you are saying, before us?

MR DOLO: I was surprised to hear that there were people who were shot at.

CHAIRPERSON: Will you tell without your attorney that there was a statement that two people in that car were injured, were shot.

MR DOLO: I'm not sure how many people were there. What I can remember, there was a gunshot, that's all I can remember.

MR PRIOR: Well, somebody was injured in that vehicle. Two, two people were injured in that vehicle. Do you acknowledge that?

MR DOLO: Yes, but I did not know that.

MR PRIOR: Thanks, please continue Mr Mbandazayo.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman I won't go through the whole affidavit, because I would like to have the guidance of the Committee, Mr Chairman, because it involve a number of issues, the other one is not going to be the subject of this one. Of this hearing, which is the farm attack, it includes also the farm attack. I would like to go to whether the other one for the, at prison he applied for amnesty for "Sodai" also.

MR PRIOR: Mr Mbandazayo, I think let's, we're going to do the farm attacks as part of that hearing when we're going to do them all together I understand, so let's not lead evidence now that we would end up duplicating unnecessarily. Let's restrict ourselves to this issue. So there are really three issues here, the one is the first shooting, the one is the second highjacking, if you want to call it that, and then the attack on the Police Station itself. Let's just deal with those three incidents as one, one process leading up to the attack.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, I'm, I agree with that one and also for the farm attack, there is also one here he apply for in prison that he was sentenced for.

MR PRIOR: Mr Mbandazayo we know about that one, but that doesn't need to be heard at all, it is a matter we can with in chambers later.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Mr Chairman.

Can you, Mr Dolo, is there any other thing you want to tell the Committee regarding this incident? That is all that happened before the attack at Police Station and after you have completed your attack at the Police Station. Is there anything you want to add that you have not said to this Committee up until to now?

MR DOLO: Are you asking me about after we had attacked the Police Station, or is there anything that I did thereafter? Can you please clarify that for me?

MR MBANDAZAYO: What I'm saying is that is there anything you want to add regarding this incident, whether it's before the attack or after the attack, which you not told the Committee?

MR DOLO: There is nothing.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee what happened after you have arrived at Mbele-Mbele's place at ...(intervention)

MR DOLO: We spent a night there.

MR MBANDAZAYO: What happened to the weapons you had?

MR DOLO: We handed them over to Comrade Happy. Comrade Happy put them somewhere. He gave me a pistol so that I can secure myself during the night, so that I could secure myself during the night.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee the reason why you attacked the Police Station?

MR DOLO: The reason for the Police Station attack. The Police during the times of oppression, they were actually the perpetrators. They were the oppressors and the SANDF, South African National Defence Force, therefore it was necessary that the Police, it was necessary that we attack the Police to force the Government, to force the Government to come to our level as freedom fighters. Even the Police, as they were able to shoot innocent people. They, they should know that there are people who can do the same. They should know that there are people who can also kill them.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, thank you.

ADV SANDI: Mr Mbandazayo, does the applicant intend to say anything to those who were affected in one way or the other by these incidents and acts on there behalf?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you, thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Dolo is there anything you want to say to the people who was affected by your attack at the Police Station, and also those people you, you robbed their car, and those who were injured when you tried to take there car. Is there anything you want to say to them at this stage, this hearing?

MR DOLO: I would like to apologise, ask for forgiveness to those people who were injured in the first bakkie. The aim, I want to say that it was not our wish that we should injure Africans, it was not our aim to hurt them, it was not the aim to hurt them. I sympathise with them, because what happened on that day, it, it happened that they were injured also on that same day, on that same day. I ask for forgiveness, I ask for forgiveness again to the owner of the car, the one that we took. It was not our aim to hurt him, to take his car by force but, because of the situation that was prevailing at that time we were forced to do that on that day, because we did not have time to talk to him nicely and ask him nicely to give us his car, because that would not succeed. I ask, I'm asking for forgiveness, that was not my aim. I will end there.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Prior.

MR PRIOR: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Dolo it seems from your affidavit, that you have confirmed as your evidence, you received quite extensive military and political training as a member of APLA. Is that correct?

MR DOLO: That is correct Sir.

MR PRIOR: And you've as you indicated you were at one stage a battalion Commander, a Chief Instructor?

MR DOLO: That is correct Sir.

MR PRIOR: When you came back into the country, South Africa, did you, what was your rank? Did you have any rank?

MR DOLO: I never had a rank here.

MR PRIOR: Were you familiar with the points, the 15 points of attention, of APLA?

MR DOLO: Yes, I know them.

MR PRIOR: And were you aware that one of those rules, I think it was rule number 11, that says do not misuse or damage people's private or public property?

MR DOLO: Yes, I know.

MR PRIOR: And were you aware of rule 4, which said do not forcibly take or demand anything from the masses of the people?

MR DOLO: Yes, I know.

MR PRIOR: And were you also aware of rule or, number 3 which said obey orders in all your actions and complain after if necessary?

MR DOLO: Yes, I know Sir.

MR PRIOR: In serving what were your instructions to take vehicles by force, is that correct? Particularly from the masses?

MR DOLO: We were forced to take it by force, because the situation was allowing us to do so.

MR PRIOR: Why didn't you simply obtain a taxi, get a ride with a taxi in to Lady Grey?

CHAIRPERSON: Didn't they want a vehicle to drive to the Police Station they were going to attack, Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: That may be so Mr Chairman, but they could have done that in Lady Grey.

CHAIRPERSON: Ceased a vehicle there?

MR DOLO: We wanted a bakkie specifically.

MR PRIOR: The question was, was it your instruction to obtain a vehicle by force?

MR DOLO: It was not the instruction, but there was a reason for us to do so.

MR PRIOR: Now, the first vehicle that came past, you've agreed, you shot, it was shot by Vuyosile. That vehicle appears to have been the property of Mr Mpela. Mr Chairman page 40 is a statement of Mr Mpela. He says the two people that he saw in the road ...(intervention)

ADV SANDI: Mr Prior, can I interrupt you for a moment on that one?

MR PRIOR: Yes.

ADV SANDI: Should we not perhaps find out from the applicant concerning the rule you have referred to, rule no 11, concerning the use or abuse or damage to people's private property? Should we not find out from him what he understood that rule to mean?

This rule no 11, Mr Dolo, you've just been referred to by Mr Prior, what do you understand it to mean?

MR DOLO: At the time, I've forgotten.

MR LAX: Rule 11 is the one that ...(inaudible) abuse property belonging to the masses. Do you want to read the precise rule, Mr Prior?

MR PRIOR: Yes. "Do not misuse or damage", it's obviously a spelling mistake, it says "Do not misuse or damage people private or public property". I should be probably people's private or public property.

MR DOLO: So what is you question, Sir?

MR LAX: What do you understand that to mean?

MR DOLO: It means that you are not to damage people's property, anything that belongs to Africans. If you have, if you have used someone's property, you've got to leave it in good condition. You must not leave it otherwise. That's how I understand the rule.

MR LAX: Now comes to rule 4, "not to forcibly take or demand anything from the masses of the people."

MR DOLO: It says that you must not demand and take things forcibly. To me it means that when I come here I must, when I come to a certain situation I must not demand people's things. If I want to do something because that I know that I have a gun, I must not take people's things forcible to further my own motives.

MR LAX: But on this day the 3rd of January 1992, you tried to hijack, if I can use that expression, Mr Mpele's bakkie at gun-point?

MR DOLO: On that day I was not doing that for my own benefit. That was for the progress and the success of the mission on that day, therefor we were obliged to take the bakkie forcible. I don't think that I actually deviated from the principle of APLA in that way.

MR LAX: ...(inaudible) at page 40 in the bundle, in the third paragraph. He says he saw two persons on the left hand side of the road as he was driving along. He had already passed these persons when both pointed firearms at them, that is at the vehicle. He couldn't say whether they were pistols or revolvers, but they were not rifles. You told the Committee that only Vuyosile fired.

MR DOLO: Yes, I said so.

MR LAX: Did you also point your firearm at the vehicle as he has indicated?

CHAIRPERSON: The R5 rifle?

MR LAX: I'm questioning him on what the, what stands in the statement.

CHAIRPERSON: You're asking him if he pointed his firearm, and he had the R5 rifle, didn't he?

MR LAX: Surely I'm entitled to test him on, on what ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: Well, that's not what Mr Mpele says. He says two people with pistols or revolvers, not rifles.

MR LAX: Well I don't know what, are we accepting that he just had a R5, I don't know if he had another firearm.

CHAIRPERSON: While we're on the point, why do you call it Mr Mpele's bakkie? From what information is that based?

MR LAX: ...(inaudible), Mr Chairman. His vehicle was shot at. Two of his ...(intervention)

CHAIRPERSON: He was a passenger sitting in the back of the bakkie.

MR PRIOR: That's correct. Sorry, it was, I beg your pardon, I was Mr Jam's vehicle. Sir, I do apologise.

Well did you point your weapon at the vehicle, let me put it that way?

MR DOLO: Yes I did.

MR PRIOR: Your R5 rifle?

MR DOLO: Yes.

MR PRIOR: You wanted to shoot at the vehicle?

MR DOLO: The aim was to scare him, not to shoot him.

MR PRIOR: You say ...(inaudible) that two females who were driving in that vehicle were injured. Do you accept that?

MR DOLO: One was Mrs Nontebo Ngojo and one was another identified person. We don't know her name.

MR DOLO: Yes, I accept that, but, but I did not know that people were injured because the bakkie went on.

MR PRIOR: Was that part of the plan, was to shoot at a vehicle in order to make it stop?

MR DOLO: The plan was to shoot in the air, not to shoot at the car.

MR PRIOR: So Vuyosile ignored the plan and shot at the bakkie, injuring at least two people?

MR DOLO: It may be like that, but I thought that he was actually shooting in the air as I did.

MR PRIOR: Like Mr Nchane, the next bakkie that came along, was the plan the same, to point the firearms and to fire in the air in order to make him stop?

MR DOLO: Yes, that is so.

CHAIRPERSON: And did you say that you shot in the air?

MR DOLO: I said after he had passed I shot in the air.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Which vehicle, Mr Chairman, I think there are two vehicles. Which one is he referring to?

CHAIRPERSON: Was this the first vehicle?

MR DOLO: I'm talking about the second bakkie, the one that I shot in the air.

CHAIRPERSON: When I've been asking you, I thought about the first bakkie.

MR DOLO: I didn't not shoot at the first bakkie.

CHAIRPERSON: Did you point your rifle at it? At the first bakkie?

MR DOLO: Yes, I pointed the rifle.

CHAIRPERSON: But you did not shoot?

MR DOLO: Yes, I did not shoot.

MR LAX: Just one thing, Chairperson, through you. Why didn't you shoot into the air with regard to the second, the first bakkie? That was the plan, wasn't it?

MR DOLO: Only one person would shoot, not the two of us.

MR LAX: And was that part of the plan?

MR DOLO: I told the Comrade that he must do so. With the second bakkie I told him that I'm the one who will be shooting.

MR LAX: Well you see, why did you tell us in the beginning of you evidence that you didn't know what happened when the shooting happened?

MR DOLO: Can you please repeat the question?

MR LAX: In the beginning of your evidence you said you didn't know what happened. There was a shot. You didn't know what happened. There was just a shot. But you told this man to shoot when the vehicle passed. So how can you tell us you didn't know what happened?

CHAIRPERSON: Well didn't he correct himself even? He had first said it was a shot, then didn't he say it was a sound, "on the way to it we stopped the van. The owner refused to stop. I heard a shot" and then he changed it and said "I heard a sound."

MR LAX: The point is though, he didn't know what happened. The question I am asking you, how can you say you didn't know what happened, when your instruction to your colleague was to shoot in the air? Do you follow the question? Do you understand what I am asking you?

MR DOLO: I don't get it clearly.

MR LAX: I am asking you to explain to us, why, if you had given this person an instruction to shoot in the air, you told us in your evidence that you didn't know what had happened when there was this sound, which would have obviously been him shooting. Do you follow?

MR DOLO: Yes, I can hear you. I was trying to say that when I heard this sound I don't know what was happen, I don't know happened, because the car kept on moving. And the reason for that when I realised that the car passed us, it was when I was thinking of shooting, because I thought that my, my firearm was better than the pistol, so I was thinking of shooting at the time.

MR LAX: Shooting at what?

MR DOLO: I was going to shoot in the air.

CHAIRPERSON: If you were going to shoot in the air, what did it matter if your rifle was better that the pistol?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I know the question of Mr Chairman, but I think there was a, the interpretation was not that good regarding that, that explanation. I don't think it came out clearly to the Committee. He said that the reason why he decided to shoot on the second incident was because he thought that it did not make any impact on the first one because it was a pistol. So that's why he decided to shoot on the second motorcar.

MR PRIOR: Thank you, Mr Mbandazayo. Well then your client hasn't answered my question.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you repeat it, Mr Chairman, for him.

MR PRIOR: Okay, the question is really quite simple. We have here a problem and the problem is this, he tells us that his instruction to his Comrade was to fire a shot in the air to try and scare these people. Yet in his beginning of his evidence when he related this incident, as Judge Wilson has indicated, he said he didn't know what happened, then he corrected himself and he said he heard a sound. That's what I am asking him to explain to us.

MR DOLO: Please repeat the question, Sir.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, the interpreter will interpret to the proper language.

INTERPRETER: He is asking that, he is saying that when you were testifying you heard a gunshot, but when they are questioning you now, you are saying you gave your Comrade and instruction to shoot when the car, the first car was passing, whereas you said you just heard a gunshot ...(intervention)

MR PRIOR: Most of the ...(inaudible) don't know what was happening.

INTERPRETER: And you said you didn't know what was happening. So they want you to clarify that because you are saying you gave your Comrade instructions to shoot, and yet you say you don't know what happened, what was happening.

MR DOLO: I, maybe I mixed up these things, but it's only the second, at the, during the second, when the second bakkie was coming I told him not to shoot, as he had shot earlier.

MR PRIOR: Mr Chairperson ...(inaudible) it's clear he can't explain this. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I'm moving on to Mr Fushane, the second bakkie, that actually stopped. You said you fired in the air and the bakkie stopped. Mr Fushane says in paragraph 5 that the persons who stopped him there identified themselves as soldiers of Umkhonto weSizwe. Did you tell him that?

MR DOLO: Yes we did.

MR PRIOR: You wanted to bring him under the impression that this was an operation of MK and not APLA?

MR DOLO: No, those were not our intentions.

MR PRIOR: Surely you'd have realised he would have reported this matter to the Police.

MR DOLO: That is why we took his bakkie by force, because if we asked him he wouldn't give us the bakkie, but if we took it by force, he would tell the Police, report to the Police, but he wouldn't be able to identify us because he did not know us.

MR PRIOR: And he would tell the Police that it was Umkhonto weSizwe, soldiers of Umkhonto weSizwe that had done this, and not APLA. Is that correct?

MR DOLO: That is correct.

ADV SANDI: Why did you say to this gentleman you were soldiers from the MK and not APLA?

MR DOLO: That wasn't for us to say that. It's because the Comrade ended up saying it's MK. I was not there when he was telling them that it's not APLA.

MR PRIOR: Sorry, you misunderstand the question. It's really a simple matter.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I think it's again, I think it will be a problem of interpretation. I don't know whether after I have explained you will be satisfied with the answer.

MR PRIOR: Well let's try Mr Mbandazayo. I'm quite happy with you explaining to him.

MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Mr Chairman, you can take it up after that if you are not happy. He's saying that after they had stopped and approached this man, the Vuyo or Vuyosile was in the front. Because he was a recruit, he was a new recruit from them. He did not mention APLA. So he did not have a chance to correct him to say no, it's not Umkhonto weSizwe, it's APLA. So he ended up agreeing that it's Umkhonto weSizwe with him. It was Vuyosile who said "we are Umkhonto weSizwe". He was a new recruit, not know maybe the difference. I don't know. That's how I interpret it.

CHAIRPERSON: Are you suggesting that he wouldn't know the difference between APLA and Umkhonto weSizwe, as a recruit of APLA?

MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Chairman, I am not there, he can answer that one, Mr Chairman. I was trying just to explain the answer.

MR PRIOR: You see, the question really is why did you hold yourselves out as MK rather than APLA? And you've given an answer as I understand it, which is that you wanted to mislead the Police. That's how it came interpreted. If you don't agree with that and I've misunderstood you, please indicate that that is so. I'm quite happy to be corrected.

MR DOLO: Please repeat your question, Sir.

MR PRIOR: Mr Dolo do you confirm that Vuyo and then later yourself indicated that you were MK and not APLA? Do you confirm that first, yes or no.

MR DOLO: Yes, I do confirm that.

MR PRIOR: The next question is why did you do that, and why didn't you correct the situation?

MR DOLO: We were in a hurry. We did not have time to explain because we could not even the ask the car from them because we were in a hurry to do the operation and then come back.

MR PRIOR: Let me just explain to you. We've heard from many APLA cadres now in these hearings, and most of them have indicated that when they took things from Africans, they indicated clearly that they were APLA, that they were on a mission for APLA, that they were encouraging the co-operation of those Africans. Why didn't you do that? That seems to have been standard practice in APLA.

MR DOLO: Please repeat your question.