CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mtati and Mr Ncipha, you are here to submit evidence to contradict what has been submitted to the Commission by the previous witness. We will ask your legal representative to assist you make the statement by leading you through it and then we will then take you on some few questions just to clarify things. We are not contemplating, at this stage, making a finding of yourselves to be perpetrators. That process follows later on in our processes. At this stage we are allowing you time to present your statement after the witness has done her part. It is over to you, Sir.

LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Would you like for me to write, to read the statement of Mr Ncipha to the Committee at this stage before he testified.

CHAIRPERSON: I think, yes, you could read it into the record and ask him to confirm that it is correct.

LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE: Yes, thank you Mr Chairman. I, Melekile Ncipha, do hereby state as follows. Number one, I was a police Constable in the employ of the Alexandria Municipality during 1986. Number two, on the 23rd day of May 1986 I was not on duty. This can be checked by referring to the occurrence book. Number three, I spent the whole day at my parent's home at Kwaincubeli, Kanza Street and only heard of the shootings the following day. Number four, I had nothing to do with this nor did I partake in any shooting on the 23rd of May 1986. Signed by Mr M Ncipha.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to add something, Mr Ncipha? Do you confirm that this was your statement signed by you? Okay, Mr Mtati.

LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE: Mr Chairperson, the same, I will also read the statement of Mr Mtati to the Commission. I Mzwandile Mtati, do hereby state as follows. Number one, on or during 1986, the 23rd day of May, I was in the employ of the Alexandria Municipality in the capacity of a municipal policeman. I also lived with my family in A Street, Alexandria, Kwaincubeli. I was on duty that particular day on foot patrol in the township with Constable Mgene. The situation at that time, during 1986, was very volatile due to the unstable political situation in the country. Constable Mgene and myself decided to split up and go to our homes to check whether was everything in order as we constantly feared that our families would be targeted due to our affiliation with the establishment. I went to my home where everything was still quiet. My neighbour living about four homes from my own requested me to look after his home as he had to leave to fetch his coat at a friend's house. When I went outside a while later I saw a burning tyre on the roof and that his home was set alight. A crowd of people of about 2000 strong were standing outside his home throwing petrol bombs and stones at it. Some of the people in the crowd saw me in my police uniform and started in my direction. Someone threw a petrol bomb at me, but missed. I shouted at them that they should stop or I would shoot, but they would not listen. I started running away, but they followed me. I again warned them that I would shoot if they continued. A stone hit me on my body and I fell into a cement ditch lying on my back. I took out my pistol and fired one shot into the crowd.

I got up, tried to run away, but I came to a cement slab fence where I could go no further. I was trapped. The people started to surround me. I had no option but to shoot again and I fired another fives shot into the crowd. I believe that Constable Mgene also came back and fired shots into the crowd to disperse them. A motor vehicle came down the street and the crowd started to break up. Mgene came up to me and I requested him to call the police and the ambulance. There was nothing else I could do to save my life as I believe that I would have been killed had I not acted as I did. The same night my house was burned down. Luckily, I had by then already vacated my home. Signed, Mr M Mtati. Thank you Mr Chairman.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you want to add something, Mr Mtati? Do you confirm that this is your statement.

MR MTATI: Yes, I do.

CHAIRPERSON: Everything in it?

MR MTATI: Yes.

CHAIRPERSON: Ntsiki Sandi.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman. I just have a few questions to ask Mr Mtati. Mr Mtati, when did you join the police force?

MR MTATI: In January 1986.

ADV SANDI: Was that your first job in your life?

MR MTATI: No, I worked at a hotel prior to that.

ADV SANDI: Did you have any convictions or reasons for joining the police force and, if any, would you mind sharing those with us?

MR MTATI: The reason why I joined the police force was because I wanted to work with the people in maintaining law and order.

ADV SANDI: What standard of education did you have at the time when you joined the police force?

MR MTATI: I was, had completed standard eight.

ADV SANDI: Did you receive training in the police force.

MR MTATI: Yes.

ADV SANDI: What did the training entail?

MR MTATI: I first went for three months training and then I went for another three months training and thereafter I would attend courses.

ADV SANDI: What was taught during that training? What was covered? What were the subjects?

MR MTATI: There were various subjects.

ADV SANDI: Can you ...

MR MTATI: Even handling of firearms, various police related subjects.

ADV SANDI: I am asking you this question because one of the things that have been said about the police force was lack of proper training and education. Would you agree with that, do you agree that the training that was given to the police was not adequate?

MR MTATI: No, I do not agree with that. The training which we were given was adequate for us.

ADV SANDI: Why do you think that?

MR MTATI: I think so because I do not think that they would give us inadequate training knowing that we had to go and deal with communities.

ADV SANDI: What is the code of conduct on the use of force? What does your profession say if you are in a situation where you have to use force, is there a code of conduct regulating your profession in that regard?

MR MTATI: It says that when you are in a situation like that and you have no way out you have to defend yourself in whichever way you can.

ADV SANDI: Do you have a copy of your statement in front of you? I want to refer you to the fourth paragraph of your statement. Do you have a copy of the statement.

MR MTATI: Yes, I do.

ADV SANDI: In paragraph four you say the situation in the country during 1986 was very volatile. Would you like to explain that?

MR MTATI: There was unrest in the locations. It was very unstable.

ADV SANDI: Did the police force have anything to do with that situation?

MR MTATI: Yes, there was a riot unit operating there, but we were not involved in it. There were people employed by the riot unit which we were not affiliated to.

ADV SANDI: Thank you Mr Mtati. Mr Chairman, I would have preferred to ask more questions, but maybe later we will have an opportunity to talk to the witness. Thank you.

CHAIRPERSON: Reverend Xundu.

REV XUNDU: Sir, I want to ask you about that question four where you say that the political situation was unstable. What do you mean by that?

MR MTATI: I was saying that the situation in the location was bad. It was unstable, it was very volatile.

REV XUNDU: What is political about that? I am asking you, you are saying that the political situation was unstable.

MR MTATI: The reason for me saying so is because many people were chased at the time who were policemen.

REV XUNDU: Why were they being chased?

MR MTATI: I do not know.

REV XUNDU: Was there a political organisation, were there any political organisation?

MR MTATI: I do not know about the organisations which existed.

REV XUNDU: I see this word "political" as something been written by you. I mean, let us refer to someone, for example, who possessed dagha, would that have been a political situation?

MR MTATI: No, I was referring to the burning of policemen's houses and people not wanting police.

REV XUNDU: And were these people, people who belonged to the organisations or were they?

MR MTATI: Yes, I would say that they belonged to organisations.

REV XUNDU: Which organisations were those?

MR MTATI: I do not know.

REV XUNDU: Let me ask, in these statements by other persons who described the situations in the locations at the time, they say that the police were acting of their own accord, especially the municipality police, the municipal police would come in, assault, shoot at random. Is that true or is it nonsense?

MR MTATI: That is not so. I did not see any of that because I worked there with them.

REV XUNDU: They say that they even disrupted funerals. They say that these "kits konstabels" even came and disrupted funerals. Do you not know anything about that?

MR MTATI: No, I said I worked there and I do not know anything about that.

REV XUNDU: Are you from Alexandria?

MR MTATI: Yes, I am.

REV XUNDU: In all these incidents where people died there are attempts to reconcile perpetrators with the families. Is there anything which you would like to say, possibly express remorse or reconcile with these families.

MR MTATI: Yes, I consider the loss of life as irreplaceable, but there was nothing I could have done.

REV XUNDU: You have been living in South Africa all your life. Did you not ever hear of police disrupting a funeral? Let us say that as you under oath to speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, you are saying that you never heard about that.

MR MTATI: I was working there for the first time, I had never heard about them disrupting any funerals.

REV XUNDU: And what you, Mr Ncipha. Could you please take the microphone. The municipal police, were they very popular with the people?

MR NCIPHA: I would say that they were popular, but when we got there we were referred to as rats and informers who were obstacles in the way of the people.

REV XUNDU: What kind of obstacles were you being?

MR NCIPHA: They said that they did not want any municipal police, that we were obstructing them.

REV XUNDU: When you became a policeman, what was the situation in the location like?

MR NCIPHA: When I joined the police it was in 1975. There was nothing wrong.

REV XUNDU: Were people allowed to be members of organisations which were opposed to the Government?

MR NCIPHA: I do not know.

REV XUNDU: You do not know?

CHAIRPERSON: Excuse me Reverend, I would like us to have some order, please, so that we can put our questions as quickly as possible. There are still many people who have to testify before this Committee.

REV XUNDU: Are you saying that you are not aware of police or about organisations which were objected to by the police or whose members the police ill treated?

MR NCIPHA: No, Sir.

REV XUNDU: I would like to hand him back to you, Chairperson.

CHAIRPERSON: Tiny Maya. No. Okay. We would now like to express our wish that we would like to have another opportunity where we could meet with these witnesses, but we would like to say that in the statement of Mr Mzwandile Mtati, I would like to ask you, do you dispute, in totality, the fact that you shot and killed Zonwabele Hermans?

MR MTATI: What happened was that I did not shoot at any specific person, I was firing at a crowd which seemed to be attacking me.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you categorically deny that you shot, not qualifying, I am not involving myself with the intention or not, that you shot and killed Zonwabele Hermans? It is not stated anywhere in the statement whether you are denying that or you are accepting that.

MR MTATI: I am saying that I do not deny that he was struck by a bullet from my firearm, but I was not aiming at anyone, I was firing at a crowd and thereafter another policeman came who had also fired, but I was firing at a crowd, not at any specific person.

CHAIRPERSON: Secondly, I would like to know, now we are in 1997, with hindsight is there anything which you are remorseful about with regards to that incident?

MR MTATI: Yes Chairman, because loss of any persons life is terrible, because human life is priceless, but on that day I had no choice, because if I had not, had just stood there with my arms folded, I would have been the one to lose my life. There was a group of them and I was by myself. I had to protect myself, there was no other way.

CHAIRPERSON: Do you realise that the work of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission is aimed at reconciling the people of this country? Do you think that, would you like to reconcile with the families of this victim? Do you ever think about it?

MR MTATI: Yes, I do think about it?

CHAIRPERSON: What do you think can be done?

MR MTATI: There is nothing better than talking, for the two parties to talk.

CHAIRPERSON: Have you taken any steps since the time of this incident?

MR MTATI: No, they are at Alexandria and I am now in Uitenhage.

CHAIRPERSON: So, does the fact that you were transferred from Alexandria erase the loss of life there?

MR MTATI: No, that is not what I said.

CHAIRPERSON: That is what I heard you answer to be. I do not how else to interpret that. The fact that you are no longer in the area where this incident took place, does it mean that because this incident is no longer staring you in the face, that you do not have to go back and try and make peace with the families?

MR MTATI: It is quite easy for the two families to sit down and talk, but as I said, at the moment I am far from them.

CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ncipha, I would like to come to you know. What do you think about the incident of that day?

MR NCIPHA: Mr Chairperson, I am also very remorseful. I was not at work that day and I was not involved in the incident and what happened.

CHAIRPERSON: I see here that you were not even present on that day, but your work put you in contact with people who were involved, your colleagues.

MR NCIPHA: Yes, we all worked in Alexandria.

CHAIRPERSON: But you were not at work on that day?

MR NCIPHA: No, I was not at work, I was at home.

CHAIRPERSON: I do not think we have got any further questions to raise at this stage. We have said that we will not be making a finding of the, of your clients, we will not be making findings concerning their status as perpetrators at this stage. So, we will inform them as soon as we are in a position, in our process, when we contemplate entering them in our report as perpetrators. If we contemplate that, we will definitely inform them and afford them an opportunity to come and interact with us further before we make a finding. Thank you. Is there anything that you want us, want to say to us at this stage?

LEGAL REPRESENTATIVE: There is nothing further.

CHAIRPERSON: Nothing further.

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