MR MXOLISI CANWELL LELEKI: (Sworn states)

REV FINCA: We welcome you Mr Leleki, we thank you for coming before the Commission. I’ll hand over to Nziki Sandi who will lead you in evidence on behalf of the panel.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Leleki according to your statement you are going to speak about your being attacked in East London being accused of being an informer. Lets not go into detail about particular incidents before you were attacked when you almost lost you life being kicked and beaten with weapons. Who was attacking you?

MR LELEKI: Joe Jordan.

MR SANDI: Did you know him prior to this?

MR LELEKI: I just knew him for a short while.

MR SANDI: Please tell us how you got to know each other and how you met.

MR LELEKI: I’d gone to look for a place to stay and as he was hoping other Comrades with accommodation ... so he’d just arrived from exile.

MR SANDI: You received training as an Unkonto Wezizwe soldier is that so?

MR LELEKI: Yes.

MR SANDI: You came back and found out that Jordan was helping with accommodation, could you elaborate please.

MR LELEKI: Before I got to know Joe Jordan I had a problem with accommodation I could not stay at home because I’d just skipped bail. Our home was full and there was a shebeen so I had to find accommodation outside my home and my neighbour said Comrade Jordan was there to help so I asked him to accompany me. We did not find him the first day so we went on another day and we were told that he had gone to a match. On the third day we got him and I introduced myself and he introduced himself. He told me that I’d come to the right person there were houses for - homes and exiles. He said that they had taken some people out of houses that were going to be provided for exiles that had returned home.

MR SANDI: What organisation did he belong to?

MR LELEKI: I didn’t ask him.

MR SANDI: Please continue.

MR LELEKI: We didn’t get to a stage where he stipulated when we could move into these houses so I said that I’d come again but I had a financial problem at the time. I would go to the DTC to get a small grant. I had to go to town to do a quotation. We made our quotation but we were told that it was too much money.

MR SANDI: What you’re saying is not clear, are you talking about the ANCCR in King William’s Town that looked after exiles who had come back home?

MR LELEKI: Yes. We went and there was just not enough money. We would get temporary jobs in town now and again. It was difficult to get this accommodation from Joe. I went with the one Comrade from the Transkei to Johannesburg even there we didn’t find accommodation so we came back after that.

In April 1993 I went to Joe again when I got there, there were a lot of other people that I did not know. It was on a Saturday afternoon and when I got inside the house there were ladies in the lounge and I told them that I was looking for Joe. Joe said that it had been a long time since he last saw me and I asked him how far he’d got with looking for accommodation. I said that there was accommodation elsewhere that I might take. It was about four o’clock in the afternoon and he said that I must come back at about eleven p.m. so I left.

After I’d walked about two hundred metres from his house I thought that it would be too late at night and where I was going to wait I wasn’t sure if I’d find anyone. I went back to his house and when I got there I told him the appointment at eleven p.m. was going to take too long. He took out a gun.

MR SANDI: He took out a gun?

MR LELEKI: Yes, he pointed this gun at me and I thought he was just playing around but he said I must lift up my hands which I did. He searched me. Three men... (interrupted)

MR SANDI: Did he find anything in your pockets?

MR LELEKI: No, I did not even have a knife. They took me outside. There was a car parked there and they pushed me together with the other two men and said I must be put in the boot of the car. I asked why and refused.

MR SANDI: These men were helping Joe?

MR LELEKI: Yes.

MR SANDI: Where were they from?

MR LELEKI: They were with him. After that I said I would not get into the boot but I’d get into the car so I got into the car and there were two men sitting on either side of my. The driver started the car and he drove off. He drove up Douglas Smith Street. When we reached the sea area he said that he must drive down Gombo and they parked next to the house and went inside. I was left with the driver inside the car and he asked me what was going on, I said I don’t know. I asked him for a cigarette, I remember he smoked Courtleigh. I smoked and they came back but I didn’t know what was going on. Joe came back and told the driver to drive off. We drove up Douglas Smith back to Mdantsane. As he was coming towards Mdantsane he said that we must go under the bridge at Senate Park and Joe ordered the driver to park the car at the side. The doors were opened and I felt a stab on my back then another wound at the back of my neck and I could not walk. They dragged me towards the bushes and put me on my back. They stabbed me twice on my chest.

MR SANDI: What were they hitting you with.

MR LELEKI: They hit me with a baton twice on my chest but they did not stab me. I stayed there the whole night. It was a Saturday. The following morning at about between eight and nine a man who stayed in Senate Park saw me and asked what was going on. I told him that it was Joe who did this to me and I asked him to call an ambulance. I tried to crawl but it was too difficult. This man was standing next to me and he saw another Comrade coming.

MR SANDI: Do you know his name?

MR LELEKI: No but I can remember his structure. He asked me if I knew who the perpetrators were. I said no, I only knew Joe. He asked whether Joe and Tetena were the same person and I said I don’t know. He said he would not call an ambulance but he would go directly to Joe’s place. I think he was driving a bakkie. He said he would force them to come and fetch me. I asked him to call an ambulance because I had internal bleeding and I was feeling cold. An ambulance came and I went to hospital. I stayed in hospital for about a week. At the week-end I requested to leave the hospital. This is the day that Comrade Chris passed away.

MR SANDI: Chris who?

MR LELEKI: Chris Hani. I got out of hospital on the day that he was buried. I came back to the township. After that ... (interrupted)

MR SANDI: Excuse me Mr Leleki what did the doctor diagnose?

MR LELEKI: They stabbed me towards my spine. My whole right side was not functioning. I could not stand. They would prick me with needles and I couldn’t feel anything. I couldn’t even urinate after that.

MR SANDI: I asked who were you talking to.

MR LELEKI: I was talking to myself that I was going to the office to report what these people had done to me these people who were referred to as Comrades.

MR SANDI: Which office?

MR LELEKI: The ANC offices. I went and reported this matter but personally I cannot say that Joe should be arrested he must say where he got the information from that I worked together with the police. Joe came and Admiral and we talked about this matter. I told Joe that I wasn’t going to do anything to Joe because I did not know anything about him he was just supposed to get accommodation for me. I told him that his responsibility was to pay my bill at the hospital. He must have paid because I never received letters which I otherwise would have received from the hospital. After that nothing ever happened. We continued with the integration process.

MR SANDI: When you met with Joe at the offices did he give evidence as to why he said that you were an informer? Were the others not there?

MR LELEKI: No, he didn’t give any clear evidence and he couldn’t even answer questions which I put forward.

MR SANDI: So he did not give satisfactory evidence. Did he deny that he’d attacked you?

MR LELEKI: No, he didn’t.

MR SANDI: Did he again say that you worked together with the police?

MR LELEKI: Yes, he said I went to him carrying an Uzzi and he said that he was able to disarm me. I asked him where that Uzzi was and I told him that he would not have been able to disarm me.

MR SANDI: In conclusion you would like Joe to clarify why he is accusing you of such?

MR LELEKI: I thought that as he is here maybe we’ll hear what he has to say.

MR SANDI: Is that all Mr Leleki? I’m not going to go into further details.

MR LELEKI: Yes, that is all.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Leleki. Thank you Mr Chairman.

REV FINCA: Mr Leleki according to your evidence you don’t know the names of the four people that were with Mr Jordan.

MR LELEKI: Yes, Sir.

REV FINCA: But you’d recognise them if you saw them?

MR LELEKI: I only know Joe Jordan. He would list these people.

REV FINCA: Had they covered their faces?

MR LELEKI: Yes, the one had a scarf covering half of his face. I remember the driver though because I think he was just hired, I don’t think he knew anything.

REV FINCA: Why do you think he was hired?

MR LELEKI: Because he did not look hard hearted and he was also asking me what was going on.

REV FINCA: Would you be able to identify him?

MR LELEKI: No, I couldn’t do so.

REV FINCA: Thank you Mr Leleki we’ll give Mr Jordan a chance to answer and respond to your evidence, you may step down thank you.

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REV FINCA: We would like Mr T.W.S. Jordan to come forward. I don’t whether Mr Opperman is here. Mr Jordan in your letter you said that Mr Opperman will represent you but he is not here.

I decided to come here alone.

REV FINCA: Thank you, we welcome you Mr Jordan we request that you give us your full names.

MR JORDAN: Tetinene Wadsworth Sipho Jordan.

REV FINCA: We don’t have time and there are a lot of people to be listened to to-day therefore we would appreciate it if people do not disturb us so that we can finish our work in time. Mr Jordan please take the oath.

MR TETINENE WADSWORTH JORDAN: (sworn states)

REV FINCA: Mr Jordan we’ll hand over to you to give us your testimony and after hat we will ask you a few questions to get some clarity. I hand over to you Mr Jordan.

MR JORDAN: Mr Chairperson I thank you for the opportunity that my colleague Mr Leleki is here to-day before the Truth and Reconciliation Commission to come and give evidence of what happened. On this particular day the tenth if I’m not mistaken was not the first time that I met him. I used to meet him previously. An appointment was made by a lady named Noxhawe for him to come and see me. This is not the Noxhawe working for the Truth Commission. After a while he came to me on this particular day. On the first day Noxhawe came with a young man by the name of Subu from Umlahzi when they introduced themselves to me. Leleki also introduced himself.

REV FINCA: Excuse me Mr Jordan Noxhawe, and Subu do you know their surnames?

MR JORDAN: No, I don’t know their surnames Sir. They said that Leleki was looking for a place to stay because he cam from Durban. I told him it is very difficult to find a place to stay in the area in which he wanted to stay because we would have to go the Street Committee of that area and it will be the Street Committee that would introduce him to the Area Committee. He will get a paper from his area and after that they will be able to help him find a place but I was not sure whether he would find a place to stay. He asked me to make these arrangements with the Chairperson of the Street Committee which I did but he didn’t come back. I met Noxhawe and gave her the report that there would be a meeting but I wasn’t present at that meeting. He was supposed to go to that meeting to ask for a place to stay. After a while he came back for the second time with two men. One of them was Smu the one who said he was from Durban. He was speaking a bit of Zulu. They came to check this place. At that time there was no decision taken concerning the place of stay. I’m not going to say that there was a promise that he was going to get a house as he said but what happened was that on the day of the incident he came to my home at about twelve after we found out that Comrade Chris had passed away. I was alone I’d just finished my dinner. There were people all over in the streets after Chris’s death. He said to me he was given an order and I asked him who gave him this order and what was the order. He said that Admiral sent him because there was a mission to be done in his Unit in which he was going to be attached from the unit of Umkhonto weSizwe. I questioned this because I met Admiral on the previous day. I couldn’t understand why there was a direct order from the Regional Commander of which there was a Sub-Regional Office and if there was a mission to be commissioned it had to go through the Sub-Regional Office it didn’t happen in this way. I said that I’m not going to defy this order I’ll follow it. I asked where we were going to work and he said we will come and pick you up and we will get an order of the operation of how we are going to operate. I accepted the order as he was like a Commander at the time because he was the one given this order and I obeyed the order. Smu came to me driving a Honda with a number plate with ND on it. It was a maroon Honda. He took me and when we were approaching a corner there were three people in the car one of them was Mr Leleke. We became five in the car. When we were approaching the Senate Park area ... let me go back. I first asked who is going to provide us with the material for the mission to be accomplished and he said that we were given the DL ............... where we will be getting the material for this operation but when we got to the place where we were going the problem was that Smu asked when we were going to get the material and who was going to provide us with this material because it was not there. I said that he said to me he is the one who is going to give us the material. Smu said that he is an organiser of this material and this is where the source of the conflict came about. We were there but there was no material and most of us like myself I was not armed and I did not know that others were armed. When a mission like this was pulled there was supposed to be material. Maybe they expected me to bring the material but I didn’t know what was going to happen. That was the cause of the conflict and Smu said that he was pulling out, he was going to leave us. A language which was used on such operations was used that if you pull out you must leave your head behind because the information. That was the beginning of the conflict. They confronted each other. He pulled out a gun from his back. We were standing in the bush. There were four of us at the time. We left the fifth one in the car. The conflict started there when he pulled out his gun Smu approached him and I grabbed gun. Smu pulled out a knife and he stabbed him in the process. I did not intervene because I didn’t know whether this was a trap but I could see that there was a conflict concerning the issue of this material.

When I tried to intervene I was at a distance and the gun was with me. I said Smu you are going to take me home because there is a conflict now. The gun was with me and he did not hesitate, Smu did not hesitate. I understood that he had no firearm with him and I said that he must drive the car I had a gun with me. When I was about to get into the car I took out a magazine and I gave it to the others so that if he comes back to these others he must not come back with a gun taken from me with bullets. Smu took me home.

The following day between half past seven and eight a man by the name of Xhaxha came he said there is a person accusing you of injuring him together with the people you were with and he said let us go and see this person. We went there and when I got there, there was an ambulance and he was being taken by the ambulance to the hospital. He then took me back home. The office of the Regional Command sent a message that I was supposed to be in the office.

When I got to the office there were Regional Officers there. One of the people who were there was Admiral Vanti. Mr Leleki was also there. Admiral said that there was this conflict and he said that Leleki was complaining that when this was happening we accused of being an informer. I’m not going to go into details about this matter.

After that he was to tell his story in front of me. He said he wanted to know the people who accused him of being an informer and secondly he wanted his medical expenses to be paid. I could see that he was tense and I could see that he suspected there were certain people who told me about him being an informer. We dealt with the issue of payment of medical expenses. It was then said that unfortunately there was no one amongst us working at that time. It was then decided that although I was not responsible for his injuries I was there when he was injured and at that time all of us were unemployed. In this issue of an informer they asked them to tell them where I got this information. I said that maybe that came through when I left them. If they suspected him as an informer I’m not going to answer because I left there before he was accused of being an informer. We were then given an order to pay the medical expenses and we agreed to pay.

For a long time I was unemployed and he used to come and visit me at home on the week-ends and there was no problem. I was then employed and he knew that I was employed because he was the person who used to visit me. He said that he was still having a problem with a place to stay and he was happy that I was employed. He wanted him to help him to build a shack in Duncan Village. I assisted him in terms of money. I gave him money so that he would be able to build his shack. He then came back to me because he had a problem with his girlfriend. I’m not sure if his girlfriend was pregnant or not but there was a problem. I again assisted him financially so that he doesn’t have a problem because we were like friends at that time. After that he went to Walmansthal to the integration of forces. What surprised me was that there was conflict between him and the people who were in my Unit. He accused them of being responsible in the attempted murder on his life. They wanted to fight but they were stopped.

I thought that when he was testifying he would be able to name these people because I don’t know the people he was with. There was that situation of the conflict between him and myself. Lastly what also shocked me was that I thought he was going to say that if he was not satisfied in this issue he would go back to the organisation as we talked this in the organisation but I heard that he came to the Commission to report this matter. That is not my problem because it is his right that if people are appearing before the Commission he has a right to come and appear before the Commission. I cannot deny him his rights.

In the original statement I got he said that he wanted me to apologise to him publicly but I think it would be important if I had to apologise to him publicly as I’ve already told you what happened I don’t want to deny him the right for him that he wanted me to apologise in public. I do apologise in public because I was there and I did not stop what was happening but I would like the Commission to judge whether he deserves my apology or not and I hope that in this situation as we are here at the Truth Commission I hope that it will resolve problems existing already and I’m very reluctant to go to those specific problems because they belong to my organisation. I have apologised publicly because I did not avoid this situation. There will be no more attempts on my life as the last one was on the fifteenth of December. I’m hoping that now it’s the end because I’m tired of being combat ready at a time when we are no longer ready to fight so I hope I’m not putting to him that he’s party to that but I’m saying that I’ve been suspicious in all these attempts of which direction they are coming from.

I now hope that the people who are present will understand that if they have a problem with me there is only one channel and that is to go to the Truth Commission. That is what I think.

REV FINCA: Thank you, Mr Jordan I have only one question for you. The question is, the people you were with in the car, are they still alive?

MR JORDAN: Mr Chairperson if those people were organised by me to be part of the attempt on his life when I apologised I would have told you that they are still alive and I know who they are but I don’t know them.

REV FINCA: The four people who were in the car, the one you know as Smu.

MR JORDAN: I knew two people Leleki and Smu.

REV FINCA: In other words Smu will be able to come and testify on this matter.

MR JORDAN: Smu visited my twice with Leleki in my home. Those were the two people I knew in that car. When they got into the home they were both coming form Uhmlazi and the other two said they were coming from Uhmlazi and they were working in his Unit in Durban.

REV FINCA: You said that what you know is that he was Smu, you don’t know his surname?

MR JORDAN: No, I don’t know his surname. He told me his surname but at that time it was not important to keep somebody’s surname.

REV FINCA: Mr Sandi?

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Where is Admiral?

MR JORDAN: Admiral is still around.

MR SANDI: What is he doing?

MR JORDAN: If I’m not mistaken I think he is a Lieutenant Colonel in the force.

MR SANDI: Xhaxha you referred to, do you know his full names?

MR JORDAN: No, he introduced himself to me as Xhaxha.

MR SANDI: Did you see him again?

MR JORDAN: Yes, I saw him in Butterworth.

MR SANDI: The man Mr Leleki referred to that found him lying there, did you meet him?

MR JORDAN: This is the man who came to pick me up the following morning and when we got there the ambulance was there taking him to the hospital. This man was Xhaxha the one whom I said I met twice in Butterworth.

MR SANDI: Thank you Mr Jordan. Thank you Mr Chairperson.

REV FINCA: Mr Jordan I’m sure you’ll agree with me this is a very complicated story. It is very strange that Mr Leleki and yourself don’t know the people who were in the car and you cannot identify them to us because I think the people who were in the car should be able to corroborate either your story or his story. You were in a sensitive operation and you did not know each other. However if we can solve this complication we will try to solve it. If we cannot solve this complication maybe the Commanders of Umkhonto weSizwe will try and solve it within the code of Umkhonto weSiezwe but I think Umkhonto weSizwe is no longer there but the then Commanders of Umkhonto weSizwe will try to solve this within the ANC. If we can we will try and solve it but it looks like a very complicated story. We thank you for your testimony.

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