| Time | Summary | |
| 37:28 | Mrs. Mandela in fact threatened you gentlemen in this way. She was not prepared to heed your warnings and told you that she was going to announce that she was going to resign from the ANC. // That’s not true. // I seem to remember, we can refer to the document, at least in one meeting where I was present she did say so. I do remember that she told us that. // I’m on your side. // I don’t think it’s a question of sides it’s a question of the truth. | Full Transcript |
| 38:08 | It is a matter of the truth. The heart of the truth was that this very Crisis Committee that had sent this message to Oliver Tambo in Zambia after the abduction of the four youngsters. The Committee clearly stated that Winnie had threatened to resign from the ANC. The Committee also made it clear to Tambo that they knew that the four youngsters were assaulted by Winnie and her club and that they were held against their will. The message also said that Winnie had refused to tell them anything about Stompie. | Full Transcript |
| 38:40 | We do confirm that the document was written by us. If I understood you well when you read the extract from the previous hearing, Mrs. Mandela says it was obviously from STRATCOM. It would be interesting to hear what is ‘obviously STRATCOM’ about this document, but we are saying it was written by us. | Full Transcript |
| 39:03 | For the past three days we’ve been listening to sometimes conflicting but nevertheless extremely damning evidence about kidnapping and vicious assault on four young people. We should also not forget that Madikizela-Mandela was convicted of kidnapping by a court of law and there’s very little doubt that Madikizela-Mandela tried very hard to destroy Paul Verryn’s life. The Crisis Committee knew all this back in 1989. They should not be surprised when eyebrows are raised about their obvious reluctance to speak freely and openly about the human rights violations committed in the period that they were called the Mandela Crisis Committee. Perhaps the one exception here is Minister Sydney Mufamadi. Tomorrow we will listen to other community leaders whose lack of decisive action was criticized at the time. We will also hear from the two UDF leaders who did have the courage of their conviction in 1989 to act against Madikizela-Mandela. | Full Transcript |
| 40:05 | ‘Day Four Thursday 27 November 1997’ // Dr Nthato Motlana who had been a friend and family doctor of the Mandela’s since the fifties was one of the first people asked to intervene in the growing crisis. When he went to see Madikizela-Mandela for the first time, Stompie Seipei was already dead. | Full Transcript |
| 40:25 | When I first got involved it was to say to Mrs. Mandela there have been these stories about abuse, sodomising of the children; please let’s stop talk about that. The next time was to say to Mrs. Mandela there are children about whom there are stories that they are being held against their will. Shall we have them released? And I thought, if I may say so, I’d been successful in having them released into the custody of the church. // Dr Motlana, with the greatest of respect to you, the release that you’re talking about takes place almost ten days after your first meeting. // I admit there was a time delay of ten days. Is it that important? // Was it your impression when you went there that amongst other minors, children, young people, Stompie was one of those whose release ought to have been secured? // Chairman it must have been, but only three as I said were released to me. // And did you become aware when you personally drove them to the office of Mr. Naidoo that Stompie was ...more | Full Transcript and References |
| 42:34 | The testimony of Murphy Morobe and Azhar Cachalia, two leaders of the Mass Democratic Movement, stood in stark contrast to that of other community leaders. | Full Transcript and References |
| 42:45 | The football club often dispensed their frightening brand of justice, which included vicious assaults in cases ranging from domestic disputes to those who crossed their paths and were branded as informers. It was widely spoken about in the community that Mrs. Mandela often directed these operations. Secondly, that there had been stories that children had disappeared from the Mandela home. It was unclear however whether they had been killed by the club, the police, or had left the country, but there were parents who continued to ask questions about where their children were. Perhaps the most sickening case to my memory involved the abduction of two youths by members of the club who were then brought to the Mandela home, where they were accused of being informers. On one of them the letter M was slashed into his chest with a pen knife and the words ‘Viva ANC’ was carved down his thigh. Battery acid was then poured over his open wounds. The second youth also had the words ‘Viva ...more | Full Transcript and References |
| 44:24 | Apart from the moral repugnance with which some of us recoiled at the activities of what people in the township tended to generally regard as ‘Winnie’s boys,’ one of our major concerns at a political level, was the extent to which the activities of these ‘boys’ were beginning to detract everyone from our urgent and primary task of fighting the regime. | Full Transcript and References |
| 44:50 | Gentlemen what do you say to the proposition that your statement that you issued on the 16th of February 1989 is part of a STRATCOM operation? // All I can say, for me, that’s a ridiculous proposition. I’ve made the point here that arising out of the events in Soweto I was part of the drafting of this statement. We drafted this statement right until about three AM of the 16th of February. There was no member from STRATCOM in that situation, unless you’re telling me that perhaps somewhere there were imaginations of STRATCOM of which we had no power over. // What was it about Mrs. Madikizela-Mandela and her football club that made it so difficult for very important prominent people in positions people held from acting decisively before this whole series of events, which you alleged took place, actually occurred? // We didn’t want the name of our movement, and I’m not talking about the UDF now I’m talking about the ANC, because that was the movement that we were fighting to ...more | Full Transcript and References |
| 46:40 | The cult of the individual, the cult of personality. I think those who have read the histories of the world would know about those events in various countries where powerful figures, where the desire, in fact their desire in even affect acquire reverence from in fact subjects, become so powerful, especially when they’re not being questioned that in the end they begin to work against the interest of the very people who are giving them in fact their power. | Full Transcript |
| 47:08 | Why was she not integral to the structures of the UDF or the MDM at the time? // The question of which structure had authority over Mrs. Mandela is in fact the relevant question here, such that the input that we’ve made did suggest that the nature of the relationship was not a straightforward one, in terms of where she fell in relation to the Mass Democratic Movement, in relation to the underground structures, et cetera. | Full Transcript |
| 47:41 | I think one of the difficulties, if we must say this quite openly, is that at that point I really did not believe that Mrs. Mandela acknowledged or accepted the UDF leadership, the MDM leadership at that point. I did not believe that she would … I mean for example you would hear that Mrs. Mandela say I take my instructions from Lusaka. You know I think that as we begin to build our democracy one of the things we have to do is to assert accountability and responsibility and it may be unfortunate that some people through no fault of their own miss the cut-off date, through no fault of their own do not apply for amnesty, but at some point in our history we are going to have to say that people have a sense of responsibility for what happened. Because if we don’t say that, then I think as we go forward there are going to be many who say, well I can do these things because comrade x or comrade y did it and got away with it. And in finalising this Commission’s, in finalising its ...more | Full Transcript |
| 49:27 | ‘Day Five Friday 28 November 1997’ // Friday’s witnesses did not help much in separating fact from fiction. The day began ominously with the delivery of a threatening letter from veterans of the ANC Women’s League. | Full Transcript |
| 49:43 | How could you just bring this note here? Can you please leave? // Then National Police Commissioner, George Fivaz took the stand. Fivaz was questioned as to why Winnie has not been prosecuted in the Sono, Tshabalala, Seipei and Asvat affairs. He said that up to now there has been insufficient evidence to bring her to trial. | Full Transcript |
| 50:08 | … Because in my mind a murder docket is never closed, it is always alive and it will receive attention sporadically. | Full Transcript and References |
| 50:18 | Fivaz surprised the Commission by telling them that in 1995 the police gave Jerry Richardson, former Mandela Football Club coach R10 000 in exchange for information about the 1988 killing of a security policeman. According to Fivaz, Richardson wanted his money before he would talk about his part in the killings of Sono and Tshabalala. | Full Transcript |
| 50:39 | So you are telling me that the South African police service is involved, or has been at least in this occasion, on oiling the palms, greasing the palms of convicted murderers for the purpose of establishing a case against somebody else. // The investigators indicated to me that it was very important as a result of the R10 000 they have succeeded to identify one specific person that was buried those days, which was pointed out by this specific informer. So, as a matter of fact, the R10 000 contributed to the solving of other incidents afterwards. | Full Transcript |
| 51:22 | But Richardson’s lawyer said that in his testimony next week he will deny that he ever informed on Winnie. The plot thickens. | Full Transcript |
| 51:31 | It has been brought to my attention Mr. Chairman that according to media reports on 24 October 1997 Mrs. Winnie Madikizela-Mandela has alleged before this Commission that the president of South Africa, President Nelson Mandela, had instructed me as National Commissioner of the South African Police Service to ‘dig up dirt’ on Mrs. Madikizela-Mandela with a view to their divorce proceedings. This allegation is simply a barefaced lie and I’m duty bound to flatly reject it. | Full Transcript |
