A listing of transcripts of the dialogue and narrative of this section.
The list provides the transcript, info about the text, and links to references contained in the text.
Transcripts for Section 4 of Episode 77
|49:48||Back to Gauteng now, to Mamelodi just north of Pretoria in fact, where the Amnesty Committee continued its hearing into the 1993 assassination of Communist Party leader Chris Hani. If the flamboyant figure of Madikizela-Mandela loomed large in Mayfair, the dowdy, bespectacled Gaye Derby-Lewis – wife of Clive Derby-Lewis – dominated the proceedings. Gaye Derby-Lewis was acquitted of murder in 1993 while her husband and his co-conspirator, Janusz Walus was sentenced to life imprisonment. She took the stand to speak for these two men and explain what had motivated them politically to kill Hani on the eve of a negotiated settlement.||Full Transcript and References|
|50:35||In August this year Janusz Walus told the Amnesty Committee how he had shot Chris Hani in the driveway of his Boksburg home in April 1993. Conservative Party leader Clive Derby-Lewis told the Committee that he had planned the assassination, obtained the gun and instructed Walus to kill. Sentenced for life, both men are now applying for amnesty. Their co-accused in the murder trial, Derby-Lewis’ wife and founding member of the Conservative Party, Gaye Derby-Lewis, was acquitted of all charges at the time. Before the murder trial she had been held under section 29 and a police video of her interrogation shows that she had revealed some knowledge of the assassination plan. But this week, questioned closely by the Committee, Gaye Derby-Lewis denied all knowledge of the assassination plan and claimed that the police had forced her to lie.||Full Transcript and References|
|51:31||Clive said he and ‘Kuba’ had discussed eliminating someone because of his communist associations. Now, is that true or not, if it was said when was it said to you? // No, that is not true. // You wrote it. Why did you write that? // Because Mr. De Waal told me to write it. // ‘It was obvious to me that ‘Kuba’ had possibly done the deed and Clive and I later confirmed that ‘Kuba’ had used the gun which Clive showed me one day in the house, with a silencer. Clive and I then left. We were both of course shocked at the news and then went shopping.’ Now is that true or not? // No, that’s not true. // Why did you write it? // Because Mr. De Waal told me to write it. // ‘Clive and ‘Kuba’ decided for Chris Hani to be eliminated, because of his particularly brutal record and his position as Chairman of the South African Communist Party, which they believed never should have been unbanned.’ What do you say to that? // No, that is incorrect. I didn’t know anything ...more||Full Transcript|
|52:48||Mrs. Derby-Lewis paragraph 74, as I read it, pertinently incriminates your husband. // Yes, well I didn’t know what my husband was doing or planning anything. I had no idea they were planning anything. // Sorry I don’t understand, why did you say you wrote that statement down with your… // Because mister, may I say something to the Committee, my feeling is that the police wanted to implicate me. I believe that the police wanted to implicate me so that was why they told me, you do this and you do that and of course they wanted to implicate me, because then I was charged with murder. // I was trying to get some information from you on something which is important. I wanted to know why did you falsely implicate your husband. // Well, they told me to write it. // And you agreed to write it. // Of course I agreed to write it because he told me it couldn’t be used in court.||Full Transcript|
|54:04||Did you lie in order to protect your husband? // I did. // Are you not lying now through your teeth in order to get amnesty for your husband? // Definitely not Bizos.||Full Transcript|
|54:15||Derby-Lewis did admit that the list of 19 names found at Walus’ flat on his arrest, which is widely believed to have been a right-wing inspired hit list, was hers. // Did you at any stage conspire with Mr. Kemp in order to draw up a list to be used as a hit list to kill Mr. Hani or any other person appearing on that list? // No. // Mrs. Derby-Lewis, when did you submit this list to Mr. Arthur Kemp? // I think it was sometime in, I think it was December 1992 or late December 1992, I’m not a 100 percent sure. I phoned him and I asked him if he had any information that he could give me on the type of houses these people lived in and their addresses and he said yes, yes, yes. And I faxed it to him and then I never got any reply. I had been writing a series of articles in the Patriot which are on record about the liberation gravy train and the people who were collecting money and who were getting funding and living in rather luxurious houses while they were working for the so-called ...more||Full Transcript|
|55:40||By the time of Mr. Hani’s death, more than three months had passed since you wrote that list of 19 names. // Yes. // Did you write a letter to anyone of the 19 asking for an appointment? // No. // Wouldn’t a simple telephone call to them, whether they would be prepared to give an interview before you handed the list over to Mr. Kemp, have saved a lot of trouble? // No, we’re back to square one again. I wanted to get their addresses, Mr. Kemp did give me some telephone numbers, and I wanted to go and see them. // Why didn’t you just pick up the phone, why did you give Mr. Kemp so much trouble to find out the addresses if you did not know whether they would grant you an interview or not? // Well, I intend to go and see them at their homes, it actually never occurred to me to phone them first. // I am going to put to you that your story that this was for the purposes you now say is a fairytale madam and that the real purpose was the drawing of a shorter list, numbering the order ...more||Full Transcript|
|57:25||Did your husband at any stage tell you why he had handed the list over to Mr. Walus? // No I asked him on the 12th, did you give it to ‘Kuba’ and he said yes and then he wouldn’t tell me anymore. // Did you ask him why he had given that list to ‘Kuba’? // No. // Why didn’t you ask him, I mean it was such a relevant question, because it then would have involved Mr. Arthur Kemp who had compiled that list for you? // Yes. // And you had read in the newspaper that it was an important piece of evidence in relation to the murder which was being reported. // Yes. // So why didn’t you ask him? // Why I didn’t ask him why he gave it to ‘Kuba’? // Yes. // No, perhaps I was too scared to ask him, I don’t know.||Full Transcript|
|58:27||Although she denies all knowledge of the assassination plan Derby-Lewis told the Amnesty Committee that she believed it was politically inspired. This is what she told the police during her interrogation in 1993. // We had minimal contact with the right in terms of being involved with them. I personally, and this is not for the record, thought they were crackpots and an embarrassment to our cause. // You said that. // Yes. // In the application for amnesty there is a statement and some evidence given by your husband that he acted on behalf of the broad right wing. Now, who is the broad right wing? // The HNP, the ”Oranje werkers,” there’s dozens of them. // There’s dozens of them? // Yes. // Of which you appear to have a poor opinion. // Mr. Bizos, you are completely twisting what I said. I talked about the crackpots that ran out and shot people in the street, I wasn’t talking about the right wing in general. I was talking about people who just go and shoot in the street ...more||Full Transcript||