MR VISSER: Chairperson, the next witness is Mr Dercksen, his amnesty application is in Bundle 4, page 796.
ADRIAAN JOHANNES DERCKSEN: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Dercksen, you are an applicant for amnesty ... (tape ends) ... and you were also one of the people who took part in the action on the evening of the 8th of December 1981 in Swaziland, is that correct?
MR DERCKSEN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You filled in an application form with the Amnesty Committee where you ask for amnesty, which appears in Bundle 4, from page 796 to 801?
MR DERCKSEN: That is correct Mr Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Do you confirm the correctness of this?
MR VISSER: In your application form you said on page 796 in paragraph 7(a) and 7(b) that you were not a supporter or whatever the case may be, of any political party, is that correct?
MR DERCKSEN: I said that Mr Chairperson, but I do reconcile myself with the point that you had made with the previous witness.
MR VISSER: Were you also then a supporter of the National Party?
MR VISSER: Would you have an outline of your history, were you ever a member of the Security Branch?
MR DERCKSEN: No, I was never a member of the Security Branch.
MR VISSER: In 1981 were you then a member of the Special Task Force?
MR VISSER: What was your rank at that stage?
MR DERCKSEN: I think I was then a Sergeant.
MR VISSER: Did you listen to the evidence of Mr Steenberg that you were a support group, do you agree with this?
MR DERCKSEN: I accept that that is the case.
MR VISSER: Can you not remember what happened on the day, if you were on standby or how it happened?
MR DERCKSEN: I cannot remember exactly.
MR VISSER: Whatever the case may be, you received orders that emanated from the then Captain Strydom and then you went to the Eastern Transvaal, the Oshoek border post?
MR DERCKSEN: That is correct sir.
MR VISSER: And do you agree that you waited a while away from the Oshoek border post, while Mr Strydom was informed about the operation and where you had received certain information?
MR DERCKSEN: That is correct sir.
MR VISSER: What information can you remember that you received at that point?
MR DERCKSEN: Mr Chairperson, the information that I can remember that I received and we received was that we would be taken in, in a group, into Swaziland where we would be deployed at a place that would be pointed out to us, that a vehicle would stop there, that there would be terrorists in the vehicle that were wanted by the Security Branch and that these terrorists had to be arrested.
MR VISSER: This would of course be an abduction because it was in Swaziland, is this not the case?
MR DERCKSEN: Yes, we can refer to it as an abduction.
MR VISSER: Can you remember if a description was given to you of any vehicle?
MR DERCKSEN: A description was given of vehicles Mr Chairperson, but I cannot remember it at this point what was described to me.
MR VISSER: You then went into Swaziland under the leadership of Captain Strydom, is that correct?
MR VISSER: And at a certain point you were deployed?
MR VISSER: What happened after this?
MR DERCKSEN: Time periods are difficult for me to remember at this point, a vehicle stopped there that I can remember and this satisfied the description that was given to us. We did not do anything, the vehicle was too far away from us. The vehicle departed at a point and we returned to the RSA.
MR VISSER: From there onwards you made your weapons safe and you packed it in and you went? And then you were caught up with and you were told to go back and you went back and you also returned to this specific point where you had been the previous evening?
MR DERCKSEN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What happened then?
MR DERCKSEN: We were redeployed again, but not at exactly the same places. There were certain amendments made.
MR VISSER: You were spread a bit further from one another?
MR DERCKSEN: That is correct Chairperson. The vehicle that was there earlier, arrived again.
MR VISSER: Did it stop, switch off its lights?
MR DERCKSEN: It switched off its lights.
MR VISSER: And in relation to the vehicle, where were you?
MR DERCKSEN: Chairperson, I was at the vehicle's right, to the back of the vehicle.
MR VISSER: So the vehicle actually moved passed you when it stopped?
MR VISSER: And how far away from the vehicle were you?
MR DERCKSEN: Chairperson, I didn't measure this but if I can estimate, it can be anything between 20 to 30 metres, it can even be further away or it can be closer, I am not hundred percent sure.
MR VISSER: So you were quite far away from the vehicle?
MR DERCKSEN: I was quite far away from the vehicle.
MR VISSER: And can you remember who was next to you or who was close to you?
MR DERCKSEN: Mr Moolman. Deceased Mr Moolman was very close in the vicinity, I can't remember exactly at this moment if he was to the left or to the right of me and how far away from me he was, but I do know that he was with me at the meeting point.
MR VISSER: The vehicle stopped and then what did you do?
MR DERCKSEN: When the vehicle stopped and the lights went off, I got myself in a readiness position to move in to the vehicle.
MR VISSER: Please tell us about this readiness position, what does this mean?
MR DERCKSEN: When we were deployed, I was laying down between the grass. No person can move while he is laying down. You must get yourself in a position where your legs are on your arms or in a hunched position. My exact steps, it is a long time ago, I can't remember, I can remember that I did not try and crawl on my stomach to the vehicle.
MR VISSER: Did you start moving forward?
MR DERCKSEN: I came into a position so that I can go from a laying position to a moving position.
MR VISSER: But you had not started moving yet?
MR DERCKSEN: No, I had not started moving forward yet.
MR VISSER: What happened then?
MR DERCKSEN: At that stage, while I was in this position, I don't want to say shouted, sorry I do not want to say I heard a shout, I heard a loud voice, but what was said I do not know. I would want to compare it, if you would say in English there was a sort of a commotion that I could see, there was a commotion.
MR VISSER: Did you think that there was a commotion as a result of noise that you had heard or something that you had seen?
MR DERCKSEN: As a result of something that I had heard.
MR VISSER: Where did this noise emanate from?
MR DERCKSEN: From the vehicle which was to the right of me.
MR VISSER: Did you hear anything else?
MR DERCKSEN: I did not hear anything else.
MR VISSER: You did not from where you were situated, hear the noise of a weapon being cocked?
MR DERCKSEN: No Chairperson, I did not.
MR VISSER: You only heard the voice?
MR DERCKSEN: That is positive sir.
MR VISSER: And then what happened?
MR DERCKSEN: It is difficult to say but with the commotion that I heard, I immediately heard rifle fire, I saw the tracer fire that was used.
MR VISSER: Did you fire any shots yourself?
MR VISSER: Why did you not fire any shots?
MR DERCKSEN: Mr Chairperson, the angle at which I was laying was completely out of proportion in relation to where the vehicle was standing. I was afraid that if I fired any shots at that point, I did not know where my own people were and that I might hit one of them and subsequently I did not fire any shots.
MR VISSER: What you did that evening, did you do it because of orders that you were executing?
MR VISSER: You have studied Exhibit A is that correct, Exhibit A is the background document.
MR DERCKSEN: That is correct Chairperson.
MR DERCKSEN: I did go through it Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Are there parts that you feel is not relevant to you?
MR DERCKSEN: That is the case Chairperson, the cases dealing with Botswana and Lesotho.
MR VISSER: But for the rest you would then that the contents of this Exhibit A would be incorporated to your evidence? Just one aspect about deceased Moolman, do you know if he fired a shot?
MR DERCKSEN: The part or the group or the point where I was situated and laying down, no shots were fired from that point.
MR VISSER: Moolman then also did not fire?
MR DERCKSEN: I believe that he also would not have fired.
MR VISSER: Honourable Chairperson, that is the evidence in chief, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Visser. Mr Prinsloo, any questions?
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO
CHAIRPERSON: Who else was with you at the scene where the shooting occurred?
MR DERCKSEN: Chairperson, the people who have already been mentioned here, those are the people that I can remember being present there.
MR DERCKSEN: It was Captain Strydom, now Commissioner Strydom, Mr Steenberg, Le Roux, Mr Hope, Mr Moolman, deceased Mr Moolman and deceased Mr Bezuidenhout.
MR DERCKSEN: Prinsloo, pardon me.
MS VAN DER WALT: Prinsloo, that is correct because there is not a Bezuidenhout there?
CHAIRPERSON: Are those the only people that were there according to you?
MR DERCKSEN: That I can remember, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: That you can remember or were there more?
MR DERCKSEN: There could have been more, I am not sure Mr Chairperson, it is a long time, one goes with a group, there are a couple of times where you work with different people, I cannot remember how many we were at that point.
CHAIRPERSON: So your memory is not very good concerning this incident, it did happen 18 years ago? Do you know why the other people fired shots?
MR DERCKSEN: Chairperson, I accept that there was a reason that caused them to feel threatened and to feel that their lives were in danger and I believe that this was the reason why they fired shots.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you think that they might have thought that their lives were in danger and that is why they fired shots?
CHAIRPERSON: You are speculating?
CHAIRPERSON: You did not feel that your life was in danger?
MR DERCKSEN: At that stage, no.
CHAIRPERSON: Your intention was to arrest the people, we do know that it was an abduction, but your intention was to arrest them?
MR DERCKSEN: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You did not afterwards stand up and say "wait, I will kill them", you never fired a shot?
MR DERCKSEN: No, I did not fire a shot, but I would want to add this, if it had happened that the vehicle stopped where it was directly in front of me, and in the attempt that I would have made to arrest the persons, and if I had felt threatened, then I would have fired myself.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, naturally. If you were endangered personally in the attempt to arrest, then you would have defended yourself, that would just be natural or am I understanding you incorrectly?
MR DERCKSEN: No, it is not a question of whether I would have defended myself, it is more about the nature of the operation. The abduction that had to happen and if that had failed and if they had resisted, to then eliminate them.
CHAIRPERSON: If they had resisted, how would they according to you, have resisted, with weapons?
MR DERCKSEN: That is the case.
CHAIRPERSON: And then you would have fired back?
MR DERCKSEN: That is the case.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see anything in the vehicle?
MR DERCKSEN: Chairperson, at this point I cannot remember that I saw anything in the vehicle. A vehicle burning, that is what I saw.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you see anyone of your colleagues move before the shooting?
MR DERCKSEN: There was movement around me, I heard and I cannot at this point specifically say that this person ran three steps or this person did that, there was movement that I had realised. It is a matter of at that point, one's attention is focused on what is happening in front of you, you want to see what is going on there because that is what it is going about. I was not that aware of the people next to me or the rest of the group.
CHAIRPERSON: So you cannot really say what happened?
MR DERCKSEN: I can only say that I heard movement.
CHAIRPERSON: And please, explain to us the commotion? What actually happened there, how did this commotion come about?
MR DERCKSEN: It is basically if I can remember correctly, it was people calling out, it is a language that I could not understand. I can't think of words. I also do not want to say that it was panic, it was just calls that had been heard. There was talk or conversation was held in the vehicle.
CHAIRPERSON: By how many people?
MR DERCKSEN: That is difficult for me to explain to you Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Were sentences being said or what was it, was it just one single noise or what?
MR DERCKSEN: No, it was not a noise like a dog barking, or a person saying good morning or good afternoon, it is more ...
CHAIRPERSON: Is it getting a fright for something and making a noise?
MR DERCKSEN: I can maybe put it to you in this way, it is more a fright. If I can picture myself as to what you would do, what is going on there, who are you, that type of thing, but those are not the exact words, it just gave me that impression.
CHAIRPERSON: That is all, you only heard this noise, there was no movement or anything.
MR DERCKSEN: You mean movement inside the vehicle, no, I did not see movement at the vehicle.
CHAIRPERSON: Were any shots fired from the vehicle?
MR DERCKSEN: Not that I know of.
CHAIRPERSON: What are you applying for amnesty for?
MR DERCKSEN: For my involvement in the operation Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: What did you do? What offences are you guilty of?
MR DERCKSEN: I feel that I was part of the group, that I had knowledge of the abduction and that it was illegal and that in case it would happen that the vehicle was in front of me, that I was prepared to execute orders that were given to me.
CHAIRPERSON: You have just told us that you were a member of the group, did you have knowledge of the illegal abduction and what did you say last, if the vehicle stood in front of you - I am talking about something that you had done. I want to know what you did wrong. Is there anything else? Can't you think of anything else?
CHAIRPERSON: Did you cross the border with a passport?
CHAIRPERSON: Was it legal to go there without a passport?
MR DERCKSEN: No, it was not legal.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you formulate any idea about how many people were in the vehicle and what their destiny was?
CHAIRPERSON: At any stage while you were at the scene?
MR DERCKSEN: The only idea that I had was that it was said that, the information that was coming through or that was given to us, that there would be two people, I did not see it, who they were, I do not know. With these proceedings I only learnt the names of the people were apparently MK Brown and something else.
CHAIRPERSON: You do not know what happened at the scene, if people were injured or if people were killed or whatever happened?
MR DERCKSEN: At the time of this vehicle catching fire, the vehicle was still away, a distance away from me. I did not move to the vehicle, we immediately departed and I do not have knowledge apart from the reports that I have received afterwards, but I do not have first hand knowledge.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Dercksen. Questions from the panel?
ADV GCABASHE : Thank you Chair. Mr Dercksen, did I hear you correctly when you said the car moved passed you or did I not hear properly?
MR DERCKSEN: That is correct Chairperson, the vehicle moved from the border post side, coming in, it moved passed us and it turned around and it stopped.
ADV GCABASHE : ... turned and stopped, it moved away from you, further away from you or slightly closer to you?
MR DERCKSEN: I will demonstrate it like this, it went passed us, turned around and stopped from the point where I was.
ADV GCABASHE : Now considering that cul-de-sac you have just drawn, you had entered from the circle side, is that where you had entered from originally?
MR DERCKSEN: I am not sure that I understand the question.
ADV GCABASHE : The cul-de-sac or the circle at the bottom of the road going out, and you said the car came down, turned at the cul-de-sac and faced back the way it had come.
MR DERCKSEN: That is positive.
ADV GCABASHE : My question is, when you arrived before the car got there, did you arrive from the circle side, from the cul-de-sac side, is that where you entered and deployed yourself along the road, or did you come from the road side and deployed yourself around the circle?
MR DERCKSEN: No, no, it is difficult to explain it here without having a graphical outlay of it. As the road lies like this, the RSA border is parallel with the road, the border post is on that side and the road comes from this side, like that, a cul-de-sac and that is how the vehicle turned. Our steps were from the border direct to here.
ADV GCABASHE : All right, that gives me a better picture. But from where you were, you obviously could not see the border post, it was a kilometre away?
MR DERCKSEN: Only the lights glimmering.
ADV GCABASHE : ... passed you in particular, were you able to observe that there were people in this car and how many people were in this car, as it drove passed you?
MR DERCKSEN: No, Chairperson, I could not see this.
ADV GCABASHE : ... aspect, you were told that you were going there to arrest these people, to abduct them and take them where?
MR DERCKSEN: Back to the RSA to give them to the Security Branch people, where the Security Branch's people were.
ADV GCABASHE : ... and then everybody else would ...
MR DERCKSEN: No, no, according to what I can recall, we had to give them to the Security Branch's people there. I believe it, we did not have room to transport them if we had to take them to Pretoria.
ADV GCABASHE : Last question, were there black members of the Task Team with you, the Task Force with you?
MR DERCKSEN: During those years, there were not black members in the Special Task Force. There were no black members.
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination Mr Visser?
RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Just that one aspect Chairperson. Mr Dercksen, before you went in, you knew that the possibility existed that some people could be injured or killed?
MR DERCKSEN: That is positive and that includes myself Chairperson.
MR DERCKSEN: That is positive Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And did you identify with that?
MR VISSER: And we know that according to the evidence, that two persons were indeed killed, whether you had seen them or not that evening, that is the situation?
MR DERCKSEN: That is positive Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And it is in terms of this that you apply for any offence which is related to murder with relation to these persons?
MR DERCKSEN: Definitely Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And that is why you apply for amnesty?
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
MR DERCKSEN: Thank you very much Chairperson.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: I don't know how full one must lead the evidence, Mr Dercksen before you leave, perhaps I should ask him the next question as well, did you after the incident, did you report your participation in the illegal crossing of the border to try and abduct people?
MR DERCKSEN: No, I did not Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: I assume there are no questions arising from this question? You are excused Mr Dercksen.