CHAIRPERSON: For the purposes of the record then, the next application is that of Sithembele Michael Khala, reference number AM3827/96. The Panel as well as the representations are as indicated on the record in respect of the previous application. Mr Mbandazayo, is there anything that you want to raise before the matter commences or do you want your client to be sworn in?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, I don't, it is just to find out I know that yesterday, whether as the Committee still have, there was an affidavit which I gave to my learned friend to be given to the Committee, which was supposed to be in the Bundle, I don't know how it was not attached, because that was submitted together with his application and everything.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the one of Barney Munto Shlatsayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, that one. The applicant can be sworn in Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Khala, in what language are you going to give your evidence?
CHAIRPERSON: Will you please stand and give your full names for the record.
MR KHALA: Sithembele Michael Cecil Khala.
SITHEMBELE MICHAEL CECIL KHALA: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Yes Mr Mbandazayo?
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, for purposes of this application, I will use the affidavit which starts at page 25, which was submitted to the State President for his application for indemnity, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: While we are at it Mr Mbandazayo, we will mark the affidavit of Mr Shlatsayo as Exhibit A. You may proceed.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Khala, the affidavit which is in front of you, is also before the Honourable Members of the Committee, do you confirm that this affidavit was made by yourself and you abide by its contents?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, for purposes of the record, I will read this affidavit.
"I, the undersigned Sithembele Michael Cecil Khala ... (tape ends) ... I presently reside at number 13 Witvoor Street, Brackendowns, Alberton. Background: since 1986 up to the present time, I have been employed on a full-time basis as a General Secretary of the Media Workers Association of South Africa, MWASA where I fill the function of the Chief Executive Officer of the aforesaid Trade Union. I also serve as the Africa Representative, a position I have held since December 1993 of ISETU (indistinct), being the International Secretariat of (indistinct) Media and Entertainment Trade Unions. The affidavit is being filed in support of my application to the State President for indemnity as contemplated by provision of Chapter 2 of Further Indemnity Act, 151 of 1992. The application for indemnity is directed at two offences, particulars whereof are set out in great detail hereunder. I was arraigned before the Supreme Court of South Africa, Witwatersrand Local Division, under case number 223/91 before Min Justice Le Grange on eight counts. At the close of the trial, I was acquitted on all of the counts save for counts 3 and 5. For that reason, I set up no description of the other counts which for purposes of the application, are irrelevant. With regard to count 3, the indictment alleges that on the 28th day of March 1990 in Johannesburg, I as accused, assaulted certain persons therein named and robbed them of the amount of R104 130-90 in cash, which then in the possession or under the control of Nedbank. The State further alleged that the offence was committed under aggravating circumstances. In count 5 the State alleges that I attempted to murder one Theodopero at the time and place of the offence (indistinct) in count 3. At the end of the trial, I was convicted of robbery with aggravating circumstances as charged under count 3 and attempted murder as charged under count 5. I was sentenced to imprisonment term of 14 years in respect of count 3 and of 5 years in respect of count 5. The Trial Court further ordered that the last mentioned sentence should run concurrently with the first mentioned one. It follows that the effective imprisonment term would be one of 14 years. The Trial Court granted me leave to appeal against conviction and sentence to the Appellate Division. My appeal against the conviction and sentence was set down for hearing before the Appellate Division on the 26th of August 1994 and judgement was handed down on the 27th of September 1994. My appeal in respect of conviction and sentence relating to both counts 3 and 5 was dismissed. A copy of the judgement of the Appellate Division is annexed hereto and marked A.
ADV GCABASHE : Mr Mbandazayo, might I just interrupt you. I noticed that under factual premise, paragraph 7 through to paragraph 9, are summarised in paragraph 10, the essence of that defence. Don't you want to, if it suits your case of course, just go to paragraph 10 which summarises the pages you would have skipped as I understand the papers before us.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Honourable Member. I think Chairperson, if the Committee allows me that, I would also prefer that to jump it, Chairperson, to go to paragraph 10. Therefore Chairperson, I move to paragraph 10 of the affidavit on page 31.
"... it may be gathered from the aforegoing, the essence of my defence was that I was present as a driver of the vehicle in question, that I had acted against my will, much as I was coerced so as to act by person who actively participated in the robbery. It will also be seen from the judgement that I denied any connection between the organisational objectives of the PAC on the one hand and the robbery on the other hand. Put otherwise, I deny that my conduct was motivated by my connection or past history related to PAC. The Trial Court found my version to be highly improbable and rejected same. I propose to set out hereunder the facts which will demonstrate that at all times relevant to the commission of the offence described in counts 5 and 3 of the State's indictment, my conduct was with a political object and more specifically it had been advised, directed, commanded, ordered or performed by me with a view to the achievement of a political objective, alternative for the promotion and combating of an object or interest of the organisation or a body of political nature, known as the Pan Africanist Congress and that I acted with bona fide belief that such object or interest of the PAC will be served and that my conduct was performed with the approval or on instruction or in accordance with the instruction of the military wing of the PAC, known as Azanian People's Liberation Army. I have been a member of the PAC since 1974, whilst I was a student. Since the PAC was then declared an unlawful organisation, I belonged to an underground cell with various of its members including Dr Gunja, Mr Shlatsayo, John Ganya, Morgan Motsoge and Zephinia Mutupeng who after serving a term of imprisonment, became the National President of the PAC. On account of my activities as a member of the PAC, I was detained for the first time in 1975 and subsequently released. In 1976 I became a member of the South African Student Movement, which organised various demonstrations against Bantu Education which action culminated with the nation wide (indistinct) which started on June 16, 1976. It came to my attention that the Police sought to detain me on account of my participation in the June 16th, uprising and for that reason, I chose to leave the country for Swaziland as an exile. In Swaziland I was received by members of PAC who included Joe Mkwanazi, who is presently PAC representative in the Provincial Legislature in kwaZulu Natal, Mhluli Muandane, Peteka Gesindlovu, Mabadu Zulu who subsequently served as a member of the Military High Command of APLA. In December 1976, on a PAC assignment, I returned to South Africa. I was subsequently arrested and I was one of the accused in the trial against Zephanya Mtupeng and 17 others held in Bethal before Judge Curlewis. Having spent nearly three years awaiting trial, in June 1979, I was sentenced to an imprisonment term of seven years, most of which I served on Robben Island. I was released from Robben Island during June 1986. Immediately after my release, I formed a new underground cell under the auspices of the PAC, I kept in constant touch with the President of PAC, Zephanya Mtupeng, as well as with various underground cells and structures of APLA combatants. During March 1990, I was approached by the Internal National Co-ordinator, the late Vincent Mama, who was then also employed as a National Organiser of MWASA. Mama expressed his concern about the lack of funds to advance the objectives of the military wing of the PAC, APLA. He urged me to render assistance in carrying out various fundraising operations. He explained that I would not have any direct participation in any specific act, save to fetch and convey a group of APLA operatives at agreed times and places after a fundraising operation, such as robbery. I was naturally most hesitant to be part of such a scheme. After several discussions, I eventually agreed. I understood and knew and indeed had a bona fide belief that such operation were directed at raising funds for the military wing of the PAC, APLA, in order that they may be able to pursue their armed struggle or such other objectives of APLA and or the PAC as would be reasonably necessary to bring about the termination of racial oppression and exploitation in various forms. I was made to understand by Mama that all of the moneys that were to accrue from any bank robbery planned, would not personally benefit any of the members of APLA who would be part of such operation and similarly that I would gain no personal benefit there from. This operation he said, and I believed him, were intended for the limited purpose of promoting the interests of APLA and the PAC. Alternatively for combating racism and apartheid and were limited to the achievement of the political objectives I have described here above. I personally spent much of my youth up to the time that Mama approached me, fighting race, based on discrimination, oppression, exploitation in our country. I supported the objections to which Mama referred and I took the view that it was proper and correct that I should support the fundraising operation referred to. I came to know later that the group of APLA persons who were part of this fundraising operation, would be six, and would include Vincent Mama, Moses Morapapa, Moguadi and Vusi whose full names are to me unknown and two others, whose names I did not know at all. I was informed that this group of APLA operatives intended to conduct a robbery on the 28th of March 1990 at Simon Street branch of Nedbank in Johannesburg. I agreed to serve as a driver during the operation. It was arranged that I would convey them to and from the bank, the relevant kombi Caravelle was parked at the Johannesburg Sun hotel. I conveyed the members of the group from Lekton House up to the bank, I remained in the vehicle when the group entered the bank, they emerged from the bank. After a while Moguadi emerged from the bank carrying what appeared to be a money bag, which was subsequently recovered by the Police. As I drove away with the APLA group in the kombi, we were confronted by the Police a few streets from where I picked up the members of the group. There was an exchange of gunfire. Moguadi and I were shot and we fell on the spot, we were both arrested, conveyed to hospital where we were kept under Police guard. It appears that the rest of the members of the APLA group escaped. It appeared to me that the Police had prior knowledge of the bank robbery operation. I was then detained in Police custody under provisions of Section 29 of the Internal Security Act, 1982, while in hospital. I remained in hospital for approximately six months under guard, as I had sustained very severe bodily injuries and in particular, I had a bullet would through my navel, another through my left knee and an additional bullet wound almost on the scalp of my head. As a result of the bullet injury to my left lower limb, I have lost the use of my motor and sensory nerves which had led to partial paralysis. With time, there has been a slight improvement in the condition of my left, lower limb. During my detention under Section 29, the Police interrogated me, the Police repeatedly told me that the robbery was an operation planned by PAC or its military wing APLA. As indicated earlier, it appeared that the Police had acquired prior warning of the robbery operation. In fact various other PAC members including Horatius Motswadi and others were also arrested. During the interrogation, I denied the link between the robbery and the PAC and or APLA and fabricated a story to explain my involvement, without implicating the PAC or APLA. I thought it was imprudent dangerous, unnecessary and perhaps undesirable to implicate the PAC or APLA under this particular circumstances. The Police however persisted in the attitude that there was a definite link between the robbery operation and the PAC and APLA. This attitude came strongly to the fore during bail application I made before the Magistrate's Court, Johannesburg, before my trial in the Supreme Court. The Police opposed the bail application on the ground that my bail application was premature in as much as five other APLA cadres were on the run and that my release would endanger their further investigation in this matter. The Police also submitted in their evidence that the PAC had connection with various countries outside our country and that I had in the past left the country for Swaziland and therefore that there was a high probability that I would not stand trial. The attitude of the Police can be gleaned from a copy of the relevant section of the record of the proceeding of the bail application, which I attach hereto and (indistinct) marked C. For the sake of completeness, I wish to state that the bail was in fact granted in the amount of R30 000 which I paid. I did stand my trial and I am not a fugitive from justice as the Police suggested I would be if bail were granted to me. I also wish to add that because it was well known to APLA operatives that I was on trial on account of the operation I have referred to, my trial was provided funding as many other political trials were, by an outside sponsor and in this particular case, by the International Federation of Journalists. Part of the fee for my legal defence were paid by the President of the PAC, Zephanya Mtupeng. I further wish to add that whilst I sustained various severe bodily injuries which I have ascribed here above, I never benefited financially from the operation aforesaid, nor the PAC. In any event, the operation was conducted for a reason other than personal financial benefit. My application falls within the ambit of the provision of Chapter 2 of the Further Indemnity Act in that it was performed by me with the political object advised, directed, commanded, ordered or performed before 12 on the 8th of March 1990. I also submit that the State President may, and I respectfully urge him to exercise his powers in terms of Section 2 of Further Indemnity Act, declare that I be unconditionally released from my long term imprisonment for the reason that my conviction and sentence to imprisonment, was advised, directed, commanded, ordered, performed with a political object and that such release would promote reconciliation and peaceful solution. It is well known that members of APLA have committed themselves to peaceful resolution of the conflict in our country and in fact, several of them have by arrangement been placed for military training under the auspices of the South African National Defence Force. Regard being had to several people of various political groupings, who have been given indemnity, it would be with an undue hardship on me if I were not to be granted indemnity in terms of Section of the Further Indemnity Act. At this point in time, I have no other remedy available to me, save indemnity under Section 2 or Section 3 of the Act. I could not avail myself on this particular (indistinct) at any time before the present time. Had I applied for indemnity at any stage before APLA and the PAC terminated the armed struggle and joined the peace process and election, I would have had to as I have done in this, disclosed the name of several APLA operatives. Such disclosure would have led to their immediate arrest, a result which in the circumstances, would have been politically undesirable."
Signed by the applicant. Chairperson, having read the affidavit, I would like just the applicant to explain a few aspects regarding his application. Mr Khala, you have in your application, in your affidavit set out in details and background and everything, now I would like you to take the Committee through the planning of this operation as it is not here in the affidavit. Where did you meet Vincent Mama, what did he say to you, the role, at what time did you meet the other operatives? Can you take the Committee through those stages?
MR KHALA: Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman and members of the Committee. In the beginning, in fact, I never belonged to the Repossession Unit of APLA, I belonged to the Logistic Unit. At that time as I said in the affidavit, I was in full employment of the Media Workers' Association of South Africa as the General Secretary. Vincent Mama was the National Organiser of the same Union and at the same time he was the Co-ordinator of APLA internally. He linked and (indistinct) the internal wing and the external. He discussed this operation with me, the idea being to get me to assist in conveying the cadres to the area mentioned in the affidavit. We had a lengthy discussion. Vincent himself had his instructions from the Director of Operations, Letlapa Mpahlela. We discussed in particular about the target. Before I proceed with this particular incident, I would want to put this matter in context so that you have a better understanding of why this specific bank was chosen and why we went for these kinds of campaigns. The thrust of the PAC, the PAC struggle in this country has always been two-fold. On the one fold the PAC was fighting the national democratic revolution in terms of which they would be able to address issues of land, issues of politics, people, etc. The second part of our struggle, would be the social democratic revolution. The social democratic revolution would deal with issues of the means of production, the redistribution of wealth and the creation and (indistinct) of classes in society. The reason for that is very obvious, we were aware as the PAC as early as 1959 that unless that was done, we would be saddled with an unending problem of political independence with people who are poverty stricken, who are homeless and disease stricken as you would see the situation as it unfolds presently. In terms of our socialist democratic revolution, we were clearly at war with stacks of capital, we were clearly at war with industries and captains of industries, big business. The banks are the captains of big business and therefore they were a legitimate target, a legitimate target like the forces, the military forces, the Police of the enemy soldiers. In the same way that we were attacking oil installations during that part of the struggle, big business was also targeted, equally targeted and the reason for that is that oil installations were supplying liquidity to the grinding machine of capital and it was our determination to crush big business as part of the capital exploitation in this country. This is necessary to explain because people have never come to understand why PAC has embarked on this kinds of struggles. Our operations therefore, our fundraising operations therefore, were not by default, they were by design in terms of the founding documents, the basic documents of the Pan Africanist Congress of AZANIA. The second question is the choice of the specific target, Nedbank. There were also specific reasons why we chose the Nedbank for this particular operation. The one reason is that during my release or just after my release in 1986 from Robben Island, together with a number of comrades, we made attempts to open accounts at the Nedbank. Our attempts were turned down, our applications were turned down on the grounds of political involvement. A bank or a business that makes that kind of decision, I am yet to be told that that kind of decision does not constitute a political statement by that particular institution. As if that was not enough, the Nedbank of South Africa was operating overtly with the Security Forces in this country. They were part of the system that was stealing moneys intended for Trade Union operations and projects during the revolutionary struggle. It is now common cause that the Nedbank diverted funds that were meant for our project, to oil the crushing machinery, the evil machinery of Eugene de Kock amongst others, that crushed and killed our people in this country. By those actions, the Nedbank placed itself squarely in the firing line of the guns of liberation, there was no doubt that they had placed themselves as enemies of the liberation struggle. Therefore the choice of this operation was by design, we discussed it and we agreed that we were going to attack the Nedbank and we did.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khala, having outlined then also the reasons for attacking Nedbank and all that, can you further as I indicated earlier on, I would like to know in your discussion, the role that you were to play and the others, the roles that they were going to play, you take us through the events of that day up until at the time you were shot at and you were arrested. All of us were not there, you are the person to give a picture to the Committee as to what was happening just briefly.
MR KHALA: Vincent had returned from Zimbabwe the weekend of the 25th, the Sunday of the 25th and he briefed me on the 26th about this operation. I was reluctant initially but my reluctance had nothing to do with my conviction of whether or not I wanted to be part of the fundraising operation, it was more a reluctance of ego. I was a public figure at the time, I was the General Secretary of the Media Workers' Association and then also served in international committees. I selfishly thought of myself, what would happen if things went wrong, would I ever have the chance and opportunity to explain what happened? Those were natural fears that I harboured, but I agreed eventually to be part of the operation. He explained that my role would be limited to conveying these cadres and he told me the other people who were going to be involved. He told me that he had his instructions as I said earlier on from Zimbabwe, from Letlapa. On the morning of the 28th, on a Wednesday, Vincent and I, on the morning of the Wednesday, visited or went around the Nedbank in Simon Street and we drove in my car to the Johannesburg Sun hotel where I parked my car and I moved into the kombi that was to be used for that operation. We drove out of the Johannesburg Sun hotel and we collected the cadres in front of Lekton House in Wanderer Street. There probably were six of them, I was the seventh and we drove down to Simon Street Nedbank. I think we circulated the bank twice or thrice and we agreed that I was going to park at the adjacent street, Main street which forms the 90 degree corner of Simon. The cadres alighted in Simon Street and I parked the kombi in Main Street, the sliding door open to allow them to come back into the kombi. After some time, they reappeared from the bank and Moguadi was carrying a bag. They got into the kombi and we drove off. I followed the route that was agreed upon and down in Marshall Street as we were driving down Marshall Street, the Police confronted us. Marshall Street is a one way that moves from west to east and they were driving in the opposite direction, they were coming from west to east, coming to us. They were already firing and there was an exchange of fire in Marshall Street. There were cars in front of me and the robot was red, I could not proceed. I had to abandon the kombi in Marshall Street and as we were moving, running out of the kombi, I was shot. I fell and as I was laying down, I was shot again and again by the cops. Disego was also shot, he fell a few paces from where I was sleeping. We remained there for a very long time, probably an hour before we were given any medical assistance. Eventually we were taken to hospital. I must explain that I did not participate in the actual planning of the operation, as I have explained earlier on, I was not part of this Unit, I belonged to the Logistic Unit of APLA. I was loaned from that Unit to drive these cadres for that particular project.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now finally Mr Khala, what happened to the other cadre who was arrested with you, what happened to him?
MR KHALA: We went to hospital with Disego, I remained in hospital for a very long time, I think for more than six months and he left before me. He was arrested and placed at the Brixton Murder and Robbery Unit and after some time, I was told - or he appeared in court, after some time I was told that he had escaped from custody and subsequently he was shot and killed by the Police.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That is all Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Mr Steenkamp,
ADV STEENKAMP: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV STEENKAMP
CHAIRPERSON: Have you got any idea how it came about that you were apprehended as you were leaving the scene of the robbery?
MR KHALA: Yes, from what the Police were telling me in the interrogation, during interrogation, that they knew about the operation. They never told me how they got to know about the operation, but they ambushed us.
CHAIRPERSON: So you gathered that they were aware of this operation before it was, did you gather that they were aware of this operation before it was executed?
MR KHALA: Yes. I think it was the 26th, because Vincent came back on Sunday, the Sunday was the 25th. He must have discussed it with me on the 26th, the Monday.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. But now coming to the Police, you gathered from your interrogation that the Police were aware of this operation before the time?
MR KHALA: Before the time, yes, before it actually took place, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: And when they interrogated you, did you gather that they were aware that this was a APLA operation, it wasn't a normal criminal bank robbery?
MR KHALA: They actually told me that it was an APLA operation, I denied that.
CHAIRPERSON: Did they try to present the case against you in court on that basis as well?
MR KHALA: Yes, when they were opposing my bail application in the Magistrate's Court, they actually told the Magistrate that they were aware that this was planned by the PAC, that they have information and so on and so forth. I think it would appear on the bail application record, they mentioned it.
CHAIRPERSON: You avoided that aspect in your defence?
MR KHALA: I actually denied. The PAC was still a banned organisation at that time. I denied any link between the operation and the PAC.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Khala. Are there other questions? Any re-examination Mr Mbandazayo?
MR MBANDAZAYO: None Chairperson.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo, are there any other witnesses?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Chairperson, none.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that the applicant's case?
MR MBANDAZAYO: That is the applicant's case, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Adv Steenkamp, is there anything else?
ADV STEENKAMP: Nothing Mr Chairman, I am not going to call any witnesses, thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mbandazayo, have you got any submissions?
MR MBANDAZAYO IN ARGUMENT: Yes Chairperson, that will be brief Chairperson. Chairperson, I would not like to detain the Committee on this, or bore it with my argument, suffice to say that I think Mr Khala has put it more eloquently, the position and therefore it is my submission that he has met the requirements of the Act that he should be granted amnesty on this aspect.
Chairperson, I would like the Committee in saying so, also taking the line from my previous argument that after the law had taken its course, when all the avenues were closed, he was ordered to serve the sentence, an application for indemnity was made which affidavit we have used as a basis for this application today, was made to the State President and also at page 5, Chairperson, we also have supporting affidavits of the then First Deputy President of the PAC, John Silemlambo and of course Chairperson, he was an obvious choice because during that operation then, before (indistinct), he was the Chairman of the Central Committee and he was the Commander in Chief of APLA. He was a suitable person to make that affidavit because APLA then fell squarely under him, hence the contents of the affidavit Chairperson at page 5.
Then also the affidavit Chairperson, which we handed to the Committee yesterday, which has been marked Exhibit B, also Barney Munto Shlatsayo, his affidavit, Exhibit A, thank you Chairperson, Exhibit A. Also a supporting affidavit and also himself, it was an obvious choice because he was the Chief of Staff. All these operations were falling squarely under him. Also the Director of Operations was falling under him, so in a way he was the man in action. Chairperson, those two affidavits and the application and the evidence of the applicant, clearly establishes the political motive for this operation. And also Chairperson, it is clear that he did not act for any personal gain and that he had made full disclosure regarding his involvement. He did not try and say and tell even the Committee that I was a part of that Unit and all that, he tells the Committee just clearly that I was even reluctant, I was selfishly reluctant thinking of my position, to be involved in this operation. He did not want even to fool the Committee and pretend as if he was part of the Unit, he tells them that I was part of another Unit, but I was loaned, I was requested just to drive on that Unit.
Chairperson, it is therefore my submission that this is one incident which clearly there is no doubt that it was done with a political objective and to fulfil a political mission and as such, it is my submission on behalf of the applicant, that he should be granted amnesty as he has met all the requirements of the Act. Thank you Chairperson.
ADV GCABASHE : Mr Mbandazayo, the indemnity application, did that again fall away because of the amnesty process coming into play?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, it did not also, through you Chairperson, also in itself, because of this Amnesty Committee was coming into being, it was also transferred to the Amnesty Committee, so the State President and also that he did not go to jail because of that, he had to wait until the outcome of this, so that is why he never went to serve the sentence, because of the application for indemnity.
CHAIRPERSON: Was he on bail or what was the position?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson, he is on bail.
CHAIRPERSON: And he is still on bail?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Mbandazayo. Adv Steenkamp?
ADV STEENKAMP: Mr Chairman, I've got nothing to add, maybe save to say that taking all the Police investigations into account, it would surely point to the fact that at least the evidence from the Police' side is supporting my learned colleague's argument to say the least. I can only just add that one of the Investigating Officers in this matter, Inspector Holmes, I know very well, I am not trying to give evidence, but I know him very well and I remember this case clearly from a while back. I have asked him actually the question of APLA and he says that they actually had information that this operation was an APLA operation. He used to be an Investigator attached to the Murder and Robbery Squad from the East Rand. For what it is worth Mr Chairman, I think it is just fair to put it before you. Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Adv Steenkamp. Yes, I assume you wouldn't have anything else to add? I assume you won't have anything else to add?
MR MBANDAZAYO: No Chairperson, none.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. That concludes the proceedings before us. We will consider the matter and we will notify the parties as soon as the decision in the matter is available, the decision would accordingly be reserved. Yes, you are excused Mr Khala.
CHAIRPERSON: I assume that takes care of the roll?
ADV STEENKAMP: Unfortunately that will be the roll for this time, thank you Mr Chairman. Thank you Members.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. That concludes this session and all of the matters that were on the roll for us to consider.
In conclusion, we just want to extend our usual thanks to everybody who always make it possible for us to successfully have a hearing of this nature in public. It normally takes a lot of people and a lot of effort to make this possible and we always appreciate that.
We also thank you Mr Mbandazayo and Adv Steenkamp for your assistance in this matter and in the other matter as well. I would also just like to thank my colleagues on the Panel with me, for their assistance. We are adjourned.