CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mokaleng, what language would you prefer to use?
MR MOKALENG: I am going to use Tswana Chairperson.
AUBREY LESHWEU MOKALENG: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated.
EXAMINATION BY MR NDOU: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members. Mr Mokaleng, you have brought an application before the Amnesty Committee in which you apply for amnesty and you filed an affidavit which appears on pages 16(a) to 16(g), do you confirm that this affidavit is your evidence?
MR MOKALENG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR NDOU: Now, we have heard Mr Muenda giving evidence that on the 2nd of October 1990 a certain incident occurred at Mandiwanan Location during which a lady by the name of Masakona Tseisi was killed. I want you to explain to the Committee as to what role you played on the date in question and how it came about that you played that role.
MR MOKALENG: On the 3rd of October 1990, certain people came, one of them was - on the 3rd of October 1990, two people came to me, they informed me that there was a meeting and that I should attend that meeting with them.
I agreed with them, then I accompanied them to the meeting. When we arrived at the venue there was an information about Katchela Maphaha, who hanged herself on the 2nd of October 1990. In that meeting a decision was taken that we should go to Mr Maphaha's place. I accompanied them to Mr Maphaha's yard. When we arrived at Mr Maphaha's house, the same group instructed me to go and call Mr Maphaha.
I entered the house and I called Mr Maphaha. He was crying when he left the house and I was not able to talk to him, but I was able to talk to him that "the people who are looking for you, is the crowd outside." They had a discussion with him, but I did not understand the content of that discussion because after that, I saw people dispersing, then I took my route and went back.
On the 6th, that is on the Saturday, those people came back. They instructed me that we have a meeting, we went to Maphaha's place to get a feedback about the mandate we gave him. I went with them, I entered Mr Maphaha's yard. I was again instructed to go and call Mr Maphaha. When I entered the house to call him, there were people who were sitting inside the yard. It seems there was a prayer meeting in regard to Katchela Maphaha's death. When I arrived, I saw that people were - Masakona Tseisi was taken by a certain group and they went outside the yard. I followed them because there were those who remained behind.
I followed that group, we went outside the yard. Modise produced a knife and stabbed Masakona Tseisi several times. I was given a bush knife to stab Masakona Tseisi, but I was not willing to do so. I hit her bluntly several times. She was dragged near the river bank. A certain group was delegated and I was instructed to go with the group. I left with that group to go and fetch petrol.
We went to a certain yard and then we found a 1400 Datsun. I was instructed to go and talk to the owner so that he should give us petrol. He accepted to give us petrol, because maybe he was scared. He gave us 5 litre petrol. We returned, I was instructed to pour petrol. When I poured the petrol, I did not understand who lit, because I was throwing away the petrol container. Then the fire started burning, then I was burnt on the right hand and the people dispersed. Then I returned to where I was staying.
MR NDOU: That is fine. What the Committee would like to find out from you is how did you connect Masakona Tseisi's death with a political motive, how do you think her death would have benefitted you politically?
MR MOKALENG: A person who has died, that is Katchela Maphaha, was an activist. For a long time she was selling meat after school. She used to come to my place, as I was a person who came from Johannesburg, she used to come to me for advice as to whether how can they overthrow the Venda government. I gave her some advice about cases how we used to struggle, about boycotts, about rent boycotts and then again burning government offices and municipal offices.
I told her that there is a difference in Venda, as compared to Johannesburg, because as they have explained to me, that the witches or the wizards were assisting the government with medicine so that they would be able to sustain their authority. I had that belief. I experienced many ...
CHAIRPERSON: What is the problem that you had with the government at that time?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, or the community or whatever, as far as you were concerned?
MR MOKALENG: The problem, if I can go back to 1986 because I arrived in 1984 in Venda, in 1986 the President then banned the initiation school. After that he formed a group of men, those men used to go to various houses and force them to go to initiation school. They forced one person to go and then he denied and then he was later killed.
Teachers were fetched from school during the day in front of the students. Then I observed that the government of the day was violating the human rights. That is then that I experienced a problem with the then government of Venda.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that all the problems that you had?
MR MOKALENG: I experienced other problems around 1990.
MR MOKALENG: The problems we experienced in 1990, I forgot the date ...
CHAIRPERSON: Under whose government?
MR MOKALENG: That is Mr Ravel. There were problems. There was a call at a certain shopping centre, we heard that call, those who were, all of us who were in Venda at that time, that who was then a Minister in Ravel's government mutilated a person there. People from a certain village organised a march, it was a peaceful march which started from Thohoyandou to bring people's grievances, that the government should know the complaints of the people or the grievances.
The march proceeded to Thohoyandou, we did not reach our destination. The government used its authority and stopped us with guns. That is where Esina Palamu was killed. Then the people dispersed, they ran away. Then the decision was taken that we should take power from the government because the government was not listening to our grievances.
If I remember well, even the Katchela Maphaha's dilemma, the people took the decision upon themselves to do these things on their own, because if they were to go to the government, the government would respond with fire.
MR MOKALENG: That is all Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR NDOU
CHAIRPERSON: When Ramushwana took over, was it not, was there no improvement?
MR MOKALENG: When Ramushwana took over, some saw some improvements, but others like myself, we did not observe any improvement. It is because making an example, making a small example, there were those who were Ministers during Ravel's reign for example Mr Ramaramisa, he was in Mr Ravel's government and when Mr Ramushwana took over, if I am not mistaken, he was again a member of the government, the Ramushwana's government. So there was no change, because some of them who were in the previous government, were present during Ramushwana's government.
CHAIRPERSON: You must please correct me, I don't recall you testifying about the reasons for killing the deceased as the previous witness did. Did you not have a problem with the re-incorporation into South Africa, Venda being re-incorporated?
MR MOKALENG: What I wanted mostly was that South Africa should be one, there should be no independent States, we should not be divided on racial lines.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I accept that, thank you. Did you think the government opposed that, was resisting that?
MR MOKALENG: The way they behaved, I was aware that they were not prepared that Venda should be incorporated into South Africa.
CHAIRPERSON: But were you not aware that that matter of re-incorporation of all these so-called States was an item on the agenda at the multi-party talks?
MR MOKALENG: I would agree with you, but that was part of the multi-party talks, but the majority of us at the grassroots because we were far from town, we are not the same as those who were near to town, that we were able to read newspapers.
During that time in Venda, we were not able to read newspapers, the Sowetan, we could only read the government newspaper.
CHAIRPERSON: I am not talking about all the others, I am talking about you. Did you know that that was a matter that was going to be discussed and negotiated at the multi-party negotiations?
MR MOKALENG: I knew that it was part of the agenda, but I did not know the content of the discussion.
CHAIRPERSON: Well, it is on the agenda. But furthermore, I understand from the previous witness that political activity was being stifled under the old government, correct?
MR MOKALENG: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Did that not improve under Ramushwana?
MR MOKALENG: There were no improvements during Ramushwana's reign.
CHAIRPERSON: Your co-applicant concedes that?
MR MOKALENG: That is his own aversion or understanding of the realities during that time.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, I see, I notice and please correct me, you did not raise the two aspects that I raised with you, as reasons for involving yourself in the murder? Am I correct?
MR MOKALENG: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Tell me, how do you explain, how - what was the actual reason you killed this lady or participated in the killing of this lady?
MR MOKALENG: The reason for me to play a role in the murder of Masakona Tseisi was that we understood that Katchela Maphaha, if she was allowed to live, she would be one of our political leaders. Because Masakona Tseisi was the one responsible for her death, we saw her, that is Masakona Tseisi as an obstacle for our political development.
CHAIRPERSON: You see what troubles me is that both you and your co-applicant committed this crime together with other people.
INTERPRETER: Just a moment Chairperson, for the movement to stop.
CHAIRPERSON: Both you and your co-applicant committed this offence together with other people. You seem to, well there was a meeting that both of you attended where this matter was discussed, correct?
MR MOKALENG: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: But yet the two of you went and embarked on this escapade if I can call it that, for different reasons? I cannot quite follow that? Can you explain that?
MR MOKALENG: I did not understand the question Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: You tell us that there was certain reasons why you assisted in killing the deceased, it involved a belief that witches were assisting these political people to maintain power. Is that correct?
MR MOKALENG: That is correct Chairperson. The reason for me to take part is that witches at that particular time, those who were in government were assisted by witches. They were mixing muti so that they would be able to maintain their political power.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, now your co-applicant tells us that the actual forefront reasons for the attack on witches were (1) that they assisted the political authorities to stifle political activities amongst the community and secondly that they objected or resisted the demand for re-incorporation into South Africa. You don't mention those? You had other reasons for attacking these witches? Do you understand what I am saying?
MR MOKALENG: Yes, I do understand Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now, is there, are you able to give us an explanation as to that difference?
MR MOKALENG: We may have some differences with my co-applicant in our reasons, because if I remember well, in some of the meetings, he was not present. Therefore we would not be able to explain the things I did. And then again Katchela Maphaha was a little bit closer to me, then I don't think my co-applicant had that access to her as I did.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Didn't you kill this woman out of revenge for the fact that Maphaha died? Wasn't that the only reason?
MR MOKALENG: My reason is not revenge, it is not revenge because I did not have any dispute with Masakona Tseisi.
JUDGE DE JAGER: But if she killed Maphaha, and you were close to Maphaha, weren't you annoyed by the fact that she was responsible for Maphaha's death?
MR MOKALENG: I was not angry, I did what was demanded by the community, I did not do that because of my personal convictions.
JUDGE DE JAGER: So you acted because it was demanded by the community and not out of your own personal convictions?
MR MOKALENG: I believed that Katchela Maphaha was active in politics and then in future, she would be one of the government officials.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Yes, no we accept that, but what now, now she is dead and she cannot be one of the leaders, and now you had to kill the person who killed her?
MR MOKALENG: Tseisi was killed because the community took a decision that she should be killed, because she was a witch, like those who were killed before her.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And that was the only reason, because she was a witch, not because she at that stage influenced the government, because Frank Ravel wasn't the government any more, he was overthrown?
MR MOKALENG: As I have explained that during Ravel's government, those who were in Ravel's government continued with their role in government during Ramushwana's reign.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, are there any questions left that you can ask?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, I will try to ask a few new questions Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: You don't have to ask.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Can you just explain to us - okay, let's start off this way, the previous witness testified that this youth activist hanged herself and I think that was common cause that that is what happened to her. Isn't that so? This activist that was killed, she hanged herself?
MR MOKALENG: I did not have the true fact that she hanged herself, because I was not present during that incident.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay. Do you have any other explanation for her death, other than that she hanged herself, in your own mind?
MR MOKALENG: I have no explanation. The only explanation is that the people who knew, are those who were residents in that particular community.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes. Okay, the previous witness testified it, it was also found to be so at the criminal procedure, so let's accept now that that activist hanged herself and then the question that I want to put to you is explain tome how the witch can cause a person to hang herself.
MR MOKALENG: If I understand your question, the witch can use muti to influence her side.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, so it is muti that is given to that person, is that what you are saying and then the person seems to lose his mind and kill himself, is that what you are saying?
MR MOKALENG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VAN RENSBURG: I see. Okay, do you agree that the statement which you filed, which forms part of the bundle of documents, that statement is word for word exactly the same as the previous witness', except for your personal involvement in the killing, contained in paragraph 26?
MR MOKALENG: I would not dispute that Chairperson.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Just repeat the answer.
MR MOKALENG: I would not dispute that.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Okay, would you then further agree with me that we have a situation here that your legal representative actually drafted the statement and you then thereafter read it and signed it?
MR NDOU: Is that a correct proposition, shouldn't we lay a basis for that, not just to suck it from the thumb?
CHAIRPERSON: Well, did he? Did he read the, well, did you, were you the author of the document?
MR NDOU: That is why I say I don't understand his question, because he doesn't have a basis. I would have allowed if he had said whether he gave a statement which wasn't written down, which was read back to him.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, I am asking you were you the author of this statement?
MR NDOU: I was not the author, I took the information from him.
CHAIRPERSON: You had it recorded?
CHAIRPERSON: Did he read it or was it read over to him before he signed it?
MR NDOU: Yes, he read it and he even kept it ...
CHAIRPERSON: So he was satisfied with it?
MR NDOU: Yes, in fact he brought them back this morning and he kept it for more than ...
CHAIRPERSON: And he signed it as well?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson. Do you confirm what your legal representative has just told the Court, the hearing?
MR MOKALENG: That is correct Chairperson, I do.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Meaning that you told him what he must write down and he did write it down, eventually typed it, you read it and signed it? That is how it happened?
MR MOKALENG: That is correct Chairperson.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Can you explain to us how come your statement is exactly, word for word for six pages, seven pages, exactly the same as that of the other witness, except for paragraph 26?
MR MOKALENG: I would not understand why they would be the same.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Were the two of you together at the Attorney's office, or when the statement was taken down?
MR MOKALENG: We were three when the statement was made.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And the three of you agreed on everything which you told your Attorney?
MR MOKALENG: Yes, we did Chairperson.
ADV SIGODI: Can you tell me at the time that the deceased was killed, did you cause any damage to her property?
MR MOKALENG: Her property was not damaged.
ADV SIGODI: Right. Then explain to me why in paragraph 31 you say
"... I also wish to apologise for the damage that was caused to property which amounted to thousands of rands."
MR MOKALENG: If I remember well, before we adjourned for lunch my co-applicant explained our legal Counsel that that paragraph was a mistake, because the property was not destroyed. No property was destroyed.
ADV SIGODI: No, but how does it get into your affidavit?
MR MOKALENG: I don't understand Chairperson, how it was incorporated in the statement.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Thank you Mr Chairperson. I just want to put it to you finally and that is my instructions on behalf of the victims, that what we have here is a classical witchcraft killing, namely in the first instance when a person died under mysterious circumstances, some culprit is identified. Secondly, there is a meeting of the community and that person is pointed as a witch and that person thirdly, is eventually killed? The point I am trying to make is that this is exactly what happened here, absolutely no difference between a classical witchcraft killing and what happened here, do you agree with that statement?
MR MOKALENG: I would associate this incident with a political motive because if this person was identified as, because the person who was murdered by Masakona Tseisi was an activist, that is why I associate this incident with a political objective.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Hm. Do you agree that in your statement there is no mention made that it was one of your objectives to incorporate the homeland back into South Africa?
MR MOKALENG: Do you mean in my statement?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Here in your statement.
MR MOKALENG: I stated many issues in my statement. Maybe I forgot some of the issues. If you were listening to me, I went back and explained some incidents, for me to forget to mention that particular issues, because I went a little bit further back and mentioned some of the issues.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes. Thank you no further questions. Thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VAN RENSBURG
MR MAPOMA: I have no questions, Chairperson.
NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA
MR NDOU: No questions, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you, you are excused.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that all Mr Ndou?
MR NDOU: That is all Honourable Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van Rensburg, do you have any witnesses?
MR VAN RENSBURG: There are no witnesses. I don't know if at this stage you want me to put on record who the victims in this instance is. There is only one in fact.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you give me that name?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Yes, it is in fact the daughter of the deceased. Her name is Elinah and the surname I will spell N-e-m-a-i-t-o-n-i. She is residing at, or her postal address is P.O. Box 450, Nzhelele. Unfortunately the postal code is unknown.
CHAIRPERSON: What is her age, do you know?
MR VAN RENSBURG: Perhaps I can just enquire quickly? Mr Chairperson, perhaps I will need the assistance of an Interpreter in this instance.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you ask the question through your microphone and then it will be interpreted.
MR VAN RENSBURG: Mr Interpreter, if you can just interpret the question, we are trying to identify the age of the victim.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Could you kindly tell us how old you are or when you were born?
MS NEMAITONI: I was born in 1958.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that all Mr van Rensburg?
MR VAN RENSBURG: That will be all on behalf of the victims, thank you Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Ndou, have you got any argument?
MR NDOU: I will leave it in the Committee's hands.
CHAIRPERSON: We don't need to hear you Mr Mapoma. That is that for that matter?
Mr Ndou, we still have the matter outstanding from yesterday. What is the position about that?
MR NDOU: He is here and it is ready.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, let's go with that then, number 1 or number 2 I think it is.