MR COETZER: Thank you Mr Chairperson and Members of the Committee. I am Riaan Coetzer working for the firm Vermaak and Denis here in Bloemfontein and represent Mr Sam Odendaal, the son of the deceased in this matter. I thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Coetzer. I think there's a lady next to you.
MS MTANGA: Thank you Chair, I am Lulama Mtanga the Evidence Leader for the Commission.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.
BONGANI KHUMALO: (sworn states)
EXAMINATION BY MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Khumalo is it correct that you were born on the 25th of May 1968 in Bethlehem?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Am I correct that you grew up in the Orange Free State Province?
MR MBANDAZAYO: How far did you go at school?
MR MBANDAZAYO: In which year did you leave school?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, to which organisation do you belong?
MR MBANDAZAYO: When did you join PAC?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Where did you join it?
MR KHUMALO: I was in Phuthaditjhaba, Qwaqwa.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Who recruited you into PAC?
MR KHUMALO: It is Daniel Makara.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Were you at any stage a member of APLA?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now you are applying for amnesty for an incident that happened in 19 - sorry Chairperson,
MR MBANDAZAYO: For an incident that happened on the 25th December 1992.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you tell the Committee why did you - why were you involved in this incident?
MR KHUMALO: I do not understand. Which incident Sir?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Was it on Christmas Day in 1992?
JUDGE DE JAGER: Was it on Christmas Day in 1992?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, Chairperson according to - ...(intervention)
MR COETZER: Can I just correct you? It was the 25 February 1992.
MR MBANDAZAYO: 5th of December.
MR COETZER: 25th of February 1992.
MR MBANDAZAYO: About the incident that happened on the 25th of February 1992, how did you become involved in that incident?
MR KHUMALO: I was sent by my Commander Daniel Makara.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes. What did he say to you? Where did you meet Daniel Makara and when did he give you whatever instructions to go there? Let me start - where did you meet Daniel Makara?
MR KHUMALO: I met him in ... (no sound coming through)
MR MBANDAZAYO: So you were recruited by an APLA member to PAC?
MR MBANDAZAYO: He did not recruit you into APLA
MR KHUMALO: He recruited me to the PAC.
MR MBANDAZAYO: How often were you meeting with Daniel Makara after he recruited you?
MR KHUMALO: He used to frequent Qwaqwa, especially for the PAC meeting.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now did he ever speak to you about operations of APLA or anything during your meetings with him?
MR KHUMALO: No, he did not often talk about them. In short let me put it this way, he did not talk to me about them.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now then on the 23rd of February according to you he came to you?
MR MBANDAZAYO: What did he say to you?
MR KHUMALO: He explained the issue of attacking farmers, white farmers. He wanted me to lend a hand to assist the organisation for what was needed.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Yes, continue. In what sense, to assist the organisation in what sense? What was needed in the organisation?
MR KHUMALO: He explained to me that the organisation wanted firearms, anything that I could lay my hands on at the farms where he sent me and he asked me whether I knew the place he was going to send me to. He asked me whether I knew the ...(indistinct) area. I told him yes, I know the area. He then explained to me that he wanted me to go and assist there in the farmers around that area and he said: "Well, you will choose the day you want to go, that is if you have found a suitable time." In other words, the place I was going to, I was not provided with a weapon. How I was going to carry out the instruction was on my shoulders as to how I get there.
When I arrived at this farm at Riets, that's where I met Jabulani Shabalala, but his other name is Dladla and this is the person I familiarised myself with at that farm and I wanted information about a white man called Odendaal as to what did he have, what was going on because it looked like he had been employed at that farm for quite a long time, but at that time there were not many employees.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now Mr Khumalo, when is that? You told us that you met Daniel Makara on the 23rd, when did you go and see Dladla now, was it the same day?
MR KHUMALO: I went on the 24th, actually it was on a Monday.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Okay, was this Dladla working on the farm?
MR KHUMALO: He was not working at that time but he had previously worked on that farm, according to what he told me.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Can you then continue?
MR KHUMALO: Let me start from the 24th and that's when I acquainted myself with Dladla. I spent that night. The next day, on the 25th in the afternoon, that is from the morning of the 25th - let me say that from the 24th in the afternoon I actually told him how we wanted to get there, because I knew that always when you go to a person in the company of someone who knows, that person would not be suspicious of anything, that is why I decided to take him with me, but he was going to be a spy, he was going to be someone who will look, he will watch the situation as I proceed with my
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Khumalo, Mr Khumalo, you know you are racing. I hear my interpreters battling to keep pace with you. Could you, whilst testifying, give them a chance to interpret because we all want to hear what you are saying? I realise that your nature is to speak fast, but could you put it in second gear for a while and give them a chance? Thank you, you may proceed.
MR KHUMALO: Okay. On the 25th I reminded Jabulani Shabalala that he would stand at a post when I get at Odendaal's place. We agreed with him and we were going there at 5.30 because the girl who worked there, Anna Magwa, we knew that she knocked off at 5.30 as well as a person who was mingling the cows there. In other words, two people were employed there. Now half-past five was the time Id discovered that these people would have left. Now I was taking him with me so that should it happen that anything disturbs me, then he would inform me quickly but he did not know my mission to that area. Yes we went there and everything went according to how we planned it. We went in at Odendaal's place.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Did Shabalala know that you're going to kill this man?
MR KHUMALO: No, he did not know.
MR KHUMALO: He then told himself that he was going with me to this place and to Odendaal and the two of us would stand before him and I just gave him the permission to go with me until we were with Odendaal. It was known in that area that he was selling tobacco and I arrived there pretending to be someone going to buy tobacco, but I had a knife with me. I knew that the knife would not disturb me in any way and I would use it. It was quite a silent way of doing things. People would not even hear that something was going on at Odendaal's. Now this man was in the kraal and he saw us and he came out, he came to approach us. I was together with Jabulani Shabalala. When he arrived, I made as if I was taking out money and I noticed that I had to finish with the job immediately and I stabbed him three times. He tried to fight, but he ended up dying and I asked Jabulani as to where the key of the safe was. He showed me and he said: "Search him on the back pockets". That's where I found a knife, I'm sorry, not a knife but a key. I found - there were two keys, it looked like two keys were those of a safe and the rest, I did not take a good look at them. I went with Jabulani inside. He was going to show me the place as he explained. It's true I was behind him and he showed me where the safe was. He said - he knew two safes in other words. Now this one that we opened, we found firearms inside, these pump guns, many of them, really, but by the look of things, when I left this house, I noticed that they would be visible, we would not be able to hide them because I was walking, I did not have any mode of transport.
I wanted then to go and look in the other safe and I also noticed that we had spent too much time inside already because the purpose was to wait outside and sort-of keep guard. So he went out when I asked him to go out and when he went out he saw Anna Magwa getting into another farmhouse. In other words she was running and this made him suspicious that she might have saw something. He came to me, he said: "The girl who is working here", that was Anna Magwa, "is getting into that farmhouse there, she might have seen something." And I said to him: "We have to leave, that is the best thing, before his sons come and get us." He asked me: "Don't we take anything? Don't we take one or two firearms?" and I made him aware: "People are watching at us and we are going to be seen right on that we are the people who committed this act." I took one pump gun and I jumped the fence and I felt no, I would not have a chance to run carrying this because I was running in the field and I left this firearm close to the fence and we ran away towards the tarred road leading to Qwaqwa, that's where the police arrested us. In other words, nothing was taken from that place. That will be my end.
MR MBANDAZAYO: In your evidence you just indicated that Shabalala did not know anything about that and a Member of the Committee asked you the question and you said he did not know anything. Now all of a sudden Shabalala now is participating as if he knew everything that was taking place. At what stage did Shabalala become aware of what is going to happen?
MR KHUMALO: Can you - I don't understand your question, Sir.
MR MBANDAZAYO: My question is that you indicated to a Member of the Committee that Shabalala did not know anything about what you were going to do on the farm. At what stage did Shabalala know what was going to happen on the farm?
MR KHUMALO: I think Shabalala was already scared and he listened to anything that I was saying, in other words, what he did was due to what I told him.
MR MBANDAZAYO: So what you are telling the Committee is that Shabalala was just responding on your instructions, he was doing what you were telling him to do?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now was it the first time that you went to this farm?
MR KHUMALO: Yes, it was my first time.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you know Anna, who you were talking about before?
MR KHUMALO: No, I did not know her before.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Was it the first time on the day in question, that is on the 25th of February that you saw her?
MR KHUMALO: My apologies. I came to know Anna on the day I went to meet Shabalala for the first time at the farm.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Would I be correct to say it was the 24th of February, a day before?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Did you speak to her?
MR KHUMALO: Yes, we were chatting because I even spent the night there, but we were just chatting about the usual things.
ADV SANDI: Explain that. What usual things?
MR KHUMALO: I had asked to spend the night there. They agreed or she agreed because she was the oldest and we were making jokes and just talking.
ADV SANDI: Shabalala, did he know you before?
MR KHUMALO: He did not know me before.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Are you now telling the Committee that you slept on the farm a day before the incident? On the day of the incident you were waking up on the farm?
MR MBANDAZAYO: And Shabalala and this lady accommodated you though you were a stranger, they were seeing you for the first time?
MR KHUMALO: Yes, the person that I first met was Jabulani and he managed to take me to that person and that's where he used to visit. It looked like it was not his home. He resided - his home was in Riets, the township of Riets.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now am I correct, in your trial you were accusing each other? Would I be correct to say that?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Why was that so?
MR KHUMALO: Gentlemen, according to my view, he was being bribed because what he testified upon clearly indicated that he had been offered money.
MR MBANDAZAYO: No, but was he not your co-accused?
MR KHUMALO: On entering the court, he was known to be my co-accused.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That is Samuel Shabalala, yes.
MR KHUMALO: Yes, the same Samuel Shabalala.
MR MBANDAZAYO: What gave you the idea that he was bribed and he was speaking against you?
MR KHUMALO: What gives me the idea that he was bribed was that on our way to Bloemfontein to the court, the people who had been made State witnesses, some of them were not even present and I was just surprised to see them. Shabalala was with me in the cell and he could walk free, the police would send him to the shops, he would wash their cars and I would stay in the cell. That gave me that impression, especially what was happening to me when I got arrested, but he disputed anything.
MR MBANDAZAYO: When you got to court they put charges to you, that is you and Shabalala. Did they not put the same charges against both of you of murder and robbery and you both denied?
MR KHUMALO: They were mostly referring to me. In other words I was told that I prompted Shabalala to take part in this, that was the language of the Court on that day.
CHAIRPERSON: You may continue Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: So I was still asking you that at the court you alleged that it was Shabalala who killed the deceased and Shabalala was saying it was you. Why did you not own up and say that Shabalala has nothing to do with this, it was myself who did this or say: "I don't know, I haven't done it. I have nothing to do with it"?
MR KHUMALO: To tell the truth, the way I was arrested by the police was not well. The police assaulted me. They asked me whether I was a member of the IFP, whether I was a member of the PAC. To them I committed this act because I was a member of a certain organisation. They wanted me to say I was a member of the IFP and I noticed that I would be killed any moment, had I agreed that I belonged to an organisation.
MR MBANDAZAYO: No, it was not my question. I was asking whether - why did you have to ...? Now in your application for amnesty you were asked if you were a supporter of any political organisation or liberation movement and you state the name that political organisation AZANU. Is that correct?
MR MBANDAZAYO: But you have just told the Committee in your evidence-in-chief that you were recruited to PAC. Can you tell the Committee about AZANU?
MR KHUMALO: I - after recruitment, I had to belong to a Task Force and that is the AZANU, after being recruited by Makara.
CHAIRPERSON: What was AZANU doing because you say, if I understand you, you correct me that they were a Task Force, what were they doing?
MR KHUMALO: That's where I was taught how to handle firearms and the petrol bombs.
CHAIRPERSON: But I thought earlier on ...(indistinct)
INTERPRETER: The Chairperson's mike is not on.
CHAIRPERSON: But correct me, I thought earlier on you said you were not trained, would I be wrong?
MR KHUMALO: You are not wrong, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Now which is which because now you tell us this Task Force, AZANU, that's where you got the training, or you were told about these bombs and what have you?
MR KHUMALO: Yes, that's where we were given training. I might have not put it correctly and from the ...(indistinct), I'm sorry for that.
CHAIRPERSON: Or did you understand APLA to be - that you were not trained for APLA, but you were trained for AZANU, because I think your legal representative spoke of APLA.
MR KHUMALO: That is correct, you have it right.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh. Thank you. You may proceed Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Now you are saying that you were trained in AZANU how to handle firearms and petrol bombs, am I correct?
MR KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Who trained you in AZANU?
MR KHUMALO: I was most of the times with Makara.
CHAIRPERSON: Was there a specific place where you were trained? In other words will you go to some area and receive training in these bombs and firearms in AZANU?
MR KHUMALO: Yes, there's a place in Qwaqwa where he took me to and showed me how they worked.
CHAIRPERSON: Were you alone when you were trained?
MR KHUMALO: It was the two of us only but he used to come to the meetings so that I could believe that he was one of the PAC, one of the APLA members.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh and then he would take you to each meeting now, because now you belonged to the Task Force. Which meetings would he take you to?
MR KHUMALO: We used to have a meeting in Phuthaditjhaba with members of the organisation.
CHAIRPERSON: What I'm actually driving at, which organisa-tion because you see why I want clarity is that Mr Mbandazayo asked you specifically and said in your application form you said you belonged to a political organisation and in brackets you said AZANU and you further testified that this AZANU was actually a Task Force, now you now attended meetings. I say which party organised those meetings?
MR KHUMALO: We used to come together.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, you and who because for now I just know about Daniel Makara? Would you have the meeting, just the two of you?
MR KHUMALO: There were other members of the organisation in Phuthaditjhaba.
CHAIRPERSON: You know, let's get clarity here. We want you to assist us you see, for now we know you belonged to this political organisation which has become a Task Force. Are you saying these other people you met and having this meeting were people of the Task Force, AZANU, or what are you saying to us? We can't follow. You know just to say ... (indistinct - speaking simultaneously) Listen, when you say we used to meet under the umbrella of the organisation, you are saying nothing because you must first say: "This is the organisation and we used to have meetings of this organisation", but for now we know about the Task Force. Were you meeting under the umbrella of the Task Force?
MR KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: You made proceed Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson. Again now, I'll go to paragraph 7(b) of your application. You were asked the position in which you occupied in whatever organisation, that is AZANU, if any and your answer is that
"My position I was in our organisation was to your understanding what was being ...(indistinct) but the second point was that my position was to protect the community in accordance with instruction from my organisation."
Now can I ask you this, in what capacity were you in AZANU, or what position were you holding in AZANU?
MR KHUMALO: I was not in any position.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me assist you. This is a translation which Mr Mbandazayo is giving you. Your original application, 7(b) they say to you explain any position you held and you come with the first answer
"The position within the organisation was the understanding of what was being published. Second, my position was to protect the community according to the order of the organisation."
This is what you have written in your handwriting. Now what you representative is telling you is that this is your translation.
MR KHUMALO: Gentlemen, may you please repeat your question? I'm sorry.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, that will emanate from your legal representative, Sir.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now let me ask you this before I repeat my question. Did you write this in your own handwriting?
MR KHUMALO: Yes, Sir, this is my handwriting.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now my question then was that I do not understand what is written that when you are asked in which capacity were you or what position were you holding in your organisation and you said your position was what was being published and then second is that your duty was to protect the community, now can you in your own words, after you have read it, explain to the Committee what did you mean by what is written there? Paragraph 7(b) in your own handwriting, can you explain to the Committee?
MR KHUMALO: The position that I was at was that of being given instructions. In other words this was a stormy area, I don't know whether I am giving an explanation.
MR MBANDAZAYO: All in all what you are telling the Committee, you never had any position in AZANU?
MR KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, ...(intervention)
JUDGE DE JAGER: What happened to Mr Makara? Do you know what happened to him? Could you tell us perhaps? Where is he?
MR KHUMALO: I learned that he died in 1998. That's what I know.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now, ...(indistinct) I will just proceed with 11 (a). You were asked
"Was the Act committed in the execution of an order or on behalf of, or with the approval of an organisation, institution, liberation movement, State department or Security Force concern?"
"There was a call from political movement to fight this oppression in the entire South Africa, 1990, the orders came from Siabelo Pama."
MR KHUMALO: What you have just read here was given to me by Makar, he told me about Mr Siabelo Pama and this great storm.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now did you know anything about Siabelo Pama yourself?
MR KHUMALO: I did not have any knowledge about him.
ADV SANDI: Did Daniel Makara say to you he knew Siabelo Pama personally?
MR KHUMALO: Yes, according to his explanation he knew him.
ADV SANDI: When was the last time you spoke with Daniel Makara?
MR KHUMALO: That was on the 23rd.
ADV SANDI: When was that? Was that February, two days before the attack was carried out?
MR KHUMALO: That is correct, Sir.
ADV SANDI: Did you speak with him at all after that particular date?
MR KHUMALO: Except the - I don't catch your question.
ADV SANDI: Did you speak with Daniel Makara again after the 23rd February 1992?
MR KHUMALO: I never spoke to him again. The last day was the 23rd.
ADV SANDI: Did you ever wish to speak with him at all?
ADV SANDI: I didn't follow that. You said you had what?
MR KHUMALO: I had the wish to meet with him and talk with him but then because of the arrest I could not meet with him because I was arrested on the day of committing what I did at the farm, that is on the 25th.
ADV SANDI: Do you know if he ever made any attempt to contact you after you had been arrested?
MR KHUMALO: It was not possible Sir to meet with him, that's how I explained it.
ADV SANDI: Did he send anything or message to you whilst you were in police custody and after you had been convicted and sentenced?
MR KHUMALO: He never came to me. He resided in Mutsiabelo and I resided in Qwaqwa. I don't know what the end of this was.
ADV SANDI: Thank you. Thank you Mr Mbandazayo.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Thank you Chairperson and Honourable Members. I was still asking about Siabelo. Let alone by being told by Daniel Makara, did you know yourself Siabelo Pama, not necessarily whether you had met him, had you ever heard about that person and what was he?
MR KHUMALO: I knew him to be the Chief Commander of APLA.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Who told you about that?
ADV SANDI: Did anybody else tell you the same about Siabelo Pama after Daniel Makara had told you that he was the Chief Commander of APLA?
MR KHUMALO: Yes, the Africans who were with me in Qwaqwa used to talk about him.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Who took the purse and the money?
MR KHUMALO: It's Jabulani Shabalala in other words.
JUDGE DE JAGER: And who took the "windbuks", the air gun?
MR KHUMALO: I don't understand, what do you mean by that Sir?
JUDGE DE JAGER: And air gun is a gun that you would shoot birds with, small birds, a pellet gun.
MR KHUMALO: I do not know what you are talking about. I did not see that.
JUDGE DE JAGER: But you saw the purse with the money that Shabalala took?
MR KHUMALO: Yes, he took it. I saw the purse because he had it in the hand, but he did not remove the purse and we did not leave with the purse.
JUDGE DE JAGER: Where did you see it in his hand?
MR KHUMALO: We were still at the farm, Sir.
JUDGE DE JAGER: In the house or outside the house?
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khumalo, let me ask you, just for the clarity for the Committee, so that everybody understands. How did you meet Daniel Makara?
MR KHUMALO: In my explanation I had mentioned that he used to frequent Qwaqwa and I was also a person trying to mix with the members of the organisation because of my friends that were outside and I - so that I knew that this was the PAC organisation. That is why he was also the first person that I managed to talk to him among all the Africans that were there.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Were there any members of PAC in Qwaqwa?
MR KHUMALO: Yes, they were still present.
MR MBANDAZAYO: And you are telling the Committee that Daniel Makwara went to Qwaqwa where there were members of PAC and you just happened to meet him there whilst you were not a member of PAC then yourself?
MR KHUMALO: I was always mingling with the members of the PAC and that's how I came to know him. He explained to me that he lived in Mutsiabelo and I also know Mutsiabelo quite a little.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Now can you tell the Committee who were the members of the PAC you were mingling with in Qwaqwa?
MR KHUMALO: I don't know whether they are well-known people but those I mingled with, one could determine from their talk and from the cards that they showed me that they were members. They all stayed in Phuthaditjhaba. We were just people acquainted to each other and it ended up that I met with Makara. I do not want to lie and commit myself ...(no sound)
MR MBANDAZAYO: What were you going to do after you had finished your task at the farm? What were your instructions?
MR KHUMALO: The instruction - may you please repeat the question? ...(end of tape) (Tape 4 English and Floor - inaudible)
MR MBANDAZAYO: ...of Mr Odendaal and repossess arms and whatever you can lay your hands on, if I'm correct. Now what were you going to do after that with all those things you have laid your hands on?
MR KHUMALO: I was going to take them to my Commander Daniel Makara. I was going to meet with him In Phuthaditjhaba.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Is it your evidence that he never gave you any firearms, any weapon to go and pull this mission and he did not give you any other manpower, it was just you alone, to go and pull off this mission?
MR KHUMALO: Yes, that is correct, Chairperson, I was alone and he never gave me a firearm or any kind of a weapon, it was the way I planned.
MR MBANDAZAYO: At the time you were given this mission, were you aware what PAC stands for?
MR KHUMALO: I didn't understand your question Sir.
MR MBANDAZAYO: At the time you were given this mission, were you aware of the aims and objectives of the PAC?
MR KHUMALO: Yes, I knew, Chairperson.
MR MBANDAZAYO: ...(indistinct - mike not on) about the aims and objectives of PAC?
MR KHUMALO: The objectives of PAC as I was a member of the Task Force, was to look for weapons, to fight for the land which has been confiscated by white farmers. I was told again that among the white farmers, some of them were police or SADF reservists, that is why the operation Great Storm was launched by Siabelo Pama.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Mr Khumalo, what do you say to the relatives of the deceased? What do you say to them?
MR KHUMALO: To the members of the family I would say to them what I did I did because of the instruction. I regret about what happened, what I did to them, because that was an order, then I know that it cannot ...(indistinct) to execute an order, that is why I did that. I ask for forgiveness from them.
MR MBANDAZAYO: Finally, with the exception that you were given an order and all those things to go and pull off this mission, can you tell the Committee the reason why they should grant you amnesty in respect of this incident?
MR KHUMALO: I say that because of the following reasons because I did not plan this personally, I don't know as to whether I explain it enough or correctly.
MR MBANDAZAYO: That's the evidence of the applicant Chairperson, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MBANDAZAYO
CHAIRPERSON: I notice that we have gone just a few - a minute or two past five. I'm conscious that some applicants come with members- came with members of the Department of Correctional Services and they have time constraints. I apologise that we had to do what we did, but could I request you that tomorrow whoever is under your custody, to be brought here that we commence at 9 so that we might move faster?
Mr Coetzer, I think you are aware that people have got to go back and there are those procedures, paperwork and what have you, that we stop now and commence again at 9 tomorrow morning.
MR COETZER: No objections Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Khumalo tomorrow you would be asked questions by Mr Coetzer, Ms Mtanga and if one or two things are not clear in our minds, a few questions will be asked, but we have to stop here at this juncture. You will be back here tomorrow at 9. I have just arranged with the members of the Department of Correctional Services that they should meet us halfway. We thank you for today. We'll see you again tomorrow. We adjourn until tomorrow 9 a.m.