CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. We'll be proceeding with the amnesty applications of H J P Botha and eight others. It's a part-heard matter relating to the abduction and death of Mrs Ngcobo, nee Kubheka.
I apologise for yesterday's non-start, it was due to reasons beyond our control and I apologise for any inconvenience caused thereby. I'm told that this morning we'll be commencing with the evidence of Mr Simon Mogopo Radebe, one of the applicants in this matter.
Mr Hugo, your applicant's to be sworn in I take it?
MR HUGO: Yes please, Mr Chairman, and he will testify in Sotho.
SIMON MOGOPO RADEBE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Radebe. Mr Hugo?
EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I'll be leading him in Afrikaans.
Mr Radebe, you are the applicant in this matter and your application appears on page 113 to 120, is that correct?
MR HUGO: Mr Radebe, just before we begin with the facts of the matter, there are just a number of general aspects regarding your general state of health. Is it correct that you suffer from severe diabetes, to the extent that it has affected your eyesight, that it has affected your kidneys?
MR HUGO: Recently you have undergone a heart bypass operation.
MR HUGO: And that last week one again you were hospitalised for kidney problems, is that correct?
MR HUGO: And that you suffer from serious post-traumatic stress, which leads to the fact that you have to undergo constant psychological treatment, is that correct?
MR HUGO: And that these problems have indeed let to the fact that your memory is severely affected at times. Is that correct?
MR HUGO: With regard to the general background, is it correct that you were attached to Vlakplaas?
MR HUGO: But that you were attached to Vlakplaas, not in the capacity of an askari, but that you were a regular member of the Police, as it was then known?
MR HUGO: Could you tell the Honourable Committee when you joined the Police?
MR RADEBE: Please repeat the question.
MR HUGO: Could you tell the Committee when you joined the Police for the first time?
MR RADEBE: I joined the Police in 1975, September, on the 10th.
MR HUGO: And now we will deal with the incident itself, it took place in 1987. What was your rank at that stage?
MR RADEBE: Please repeat the question.
MR HUGO: When the incident took place, the incident that we are about to deal with, was it 1987? And what was your rank at that stage?
MR RADEBE: I was a Warrant Officer.
MR HUGO: And is it correct that you have compiled a further affidavit in order to assist the Committee and that this affidavit has been served before the Committee already?
MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, may we mark this Exhibit, I think G? Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Does everybody have a copy of Mr Radebe's statement here? Mine hasn't got an ending, Mr Hugo.
MR HUGO: Well that is the end of the his statement, unfortunately ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, so it's a statement, not an affidavit as such?
MR LAX: Can I just ask a question, there was an earlier statement made available to us, it was given to us on the last occasion and it was signed on the 13th of May 1999, that is a properly attested one, it's a 12 page document.
MR HUGO: Mr Chairman, I'm not sure which - is this the document that - oh, Mr Chairman no, this particular document was just a supplementary affidavit that was filed. It dealt with the background history and his particular history in the Police Force itself. That's not the document that we're referring to.
MR LAX: Okay, but the question I'm asking is, we haven't given that any exhibit reference, it's simply floating around at this stage and we need to do something with it.
MR HUGO: Shall we mark that Exhibit H then, Mr Chairman?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, so we'll mark the statement that you've referred to now, this one that is unsigned or undated, but which has been distributed yesterday to everybody, as G and this other statement that has been referred to by Mr Lax - I don't know if everyone has got it, "Aanvullende Eedsverklaring", it's a 12 page document, that we'll call Exhibit H.
MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Radebe, the exhibit to which has been referred as Exhibit G, you have studied and you are up to date regarding the facts embodied therein, is that correct?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HUGO: And you also request that the general aspects of background which have been discussed there, be incorporated in your application. That is where the political climate and so forth is discussed. Is that correct?
MR HUGO: Very well. Then you deal with the facts. Could you tell us who was your Commander, your direct Commander during this operation?
MR RADEBE: Which Commander are you referring to, in Vlakplaas or in Durban?
MR HUGO: When you operated here in Durban.
MR RADEBE: It was Hentie Botha.
MR HUGO: Very well. And you state in your application that Martinus Ras was your Commander.
MR RADEBE: I beg your pardon, Martinus Ras was my Commander. Please, I apologise for mentioning the name of Mr Botha.
MR HUGO: And then furthermore, in paragraph 1 you simply state how you viewed the ANC at that stage, could you perhaps tell the Committee in your own words, what your view of the ANC was.
MR RADEBE: I regarded the ANC as an enemy.
MR HUGO: And did you regard it as your duty as a member of the Police, to fight the ANC?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson, mainly because I was a member of the Security Branch.
MR HUGO: During May 1987 you arrived in Pretoria to participate in an operation, in Durban. What was the purpose of the operation which was to be launched in Durban?
MR RADEBE: We left Vlakplaas to work in Durban. There was no specific operation which we were supposed to execute. We received direct instructions about this operation when we arrived in Durban.
MR HUGO: But was it generally about the infiltration of the ANC in Durban?
MR RADEBE: ...(no interpretation)
INTERPRETER: Sorry, Chairperson ...(intervention)
MR HUGO: Very well. Who from Vlakplaas was deployed to participate in this operation?
INTERPRETER: The Interpreter is asking for a spacing, because we're dealing with three languages which we answer and question.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I don't know if you've heard that Mr Radebe, the Interpreters are now dealing with three languages, Afrikaans, Sotho and English, and they just request if you can go a little bit slower and let there be a space between one person talking and the next person talking.
MR HUGO: Mr Radebe, let me just repeat the question. How many members of Vlakplaas were deployed to participate in this operation which would take place in Durban?
MR RADEBE: Three blacks. I don't know the number of white members who were involved.
MR HUGO: Is it correct that the major proportion of Vlakplaas was operating in Durban at that stage?
MR HUGO: Very well. And where did you reside here in Durban?
MR RADEBE: CR Swart Police Station.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what do you mean by that, Mr Radebe, did you sleep in the police station, or have they got quarters there for people, did you sleep in the lock-up or what was the situation?
MR RADEBE: There was a hall next to the Dog Unit, then we were staying in the first floor in that particular hall.
MR HUGO: Very well. In the following paragraph you mention a Mr Jimmy Mbane and a Mr Dube who were also present, what was their function?
MR RADEBE: Their function was that when we leave to various houses, they would enter first to talk to a particular person who was supposed to be identified by a certain member of the ANC whom we called "Gipsman"(?), because he ...(indistinct), therefore we wanted him not to run away.
MR HUGO: I beg your pardon, before we ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, what was that person's name, that ANC person whom you caught?
MR RADEBE: I don't know his real name but we called him Gipsman.
CHAIRPERSON: ... plaster of paris man?
MR HUGO: Just to return to Mr Mbane and Mr Dube's function, wasn't it generally their function to attempt to infiltrate the ANC cell here in Durban?
MR RADEBE: Yes, in general that was their function, so that if they may identify a person who they trade with him outside, I would be able to arrest that particular person, because I would give evidence in court because they would not know how to give evidence in court if that person has been arrested.
MR HUGO: Very well. Could you first tell the Honourable Committee how you travelled from Pretoria to Durban, in what vehicle?
MR RADEBE: I was driving a minibus, A20 Nissan.
MR HUGO: And who was the driver of the vehicle?
MR RADEBE: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR HUGO: And it was a white vehicle?
MR HUGO: And you saw that Mr Mbane, among others, alleged that he drove with you in a blue kombi when you travelled from Pretoria to Durban. What do you say of that?
MR RADEBE: That's not correct.
MR LAX: May I just ask a question?
MR HUGO: I beg your pardon, Mr Chairman.
MR LAX: I just want to ask a question if I may.
In the lead-up to your evidence it's been explained that you have a problem with your memory.
MR LAX: Why are you so sure it was blue and not white, or white and not blue? You must have driven hundreds of different kombis in hundreds of different operations.
MR RADEBE: It is correct, Chairperson, because we who used to drive minibuses, it will belong to me unless I was sick or off duty, then it will be driven by a particular person, or a Commanding Officer would instruct another person to drive that particular kombi. But I would use that kombi at all times, because it has been allocated to me, because if they had problems, then I knew the problem I used to drive.
MR LAX: So you never drove a blue kombi, is that what you're saying?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson. If I remember well, the blue kombi was driven by Solomon Munyawu. It belonged to Mr Almond Nofomela.
MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Radebe, you state in paragraph 6 that you had information that the Intelligence Unit was working on the ANC, which was operating in KwaMashu and Inanda. Who gave you this information?
MR RADEBE: I was informed by Martinus Ras.
MR HUGO: And furthermore you state that information was provided to you regarding Ntombi Kubheka, and what information did they provide you regarding her and her activities?
MR RADEBE: They only told us that we should go with that ANC member, whom I don't know his real name, whom we used to call him Gipsman, that he'll take us to a certain woman in KwaMashu where ANC members used to arrive at her place. They telephoned her, then that person is the one who gave them that particular information. And then when that person was arrested I was not there.
MR HUGO: Very well. Furthermore, you state in paragraph 8 that it was said to you that the storage of weapons and provision of accommodation were supplied by her, who gave you this information and how did you obtain it?
MR RADEBE: Please repeat your question.
MR HUGO: You will see in your statement that I have studied with you, that among others, information was obtained that she was storing weaponry with her and that she had family in Lusaka, who were working for the ANC. The question is now, who provided this information to you, how did you come about this?
MR RADEBE: I received that information from Martinus Ras before we left the police station.
MR HUGO: Very well. You state that you received an instruction to infiltrate this cell, and was this order also given to you by Martinus Ras?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HUGO: Very well. And how did you go about infiltrating the cell?
MR RADEBE: We left CR Swart Police Station and then we went to KwaMashu, in terms of the direction of that ANC member. We arrived first to a particular house if I remember well ...(intervention)
MR HUGO: Let me stop you first. The man in the plaster of paris that you have referred to, was this the contact person who was supposed to lead you to the Kubheka home?
MR HUGO: And this was under the instruction of Mr Ras?
MR HUGO: And who departed with you?
MR RADEBE: Jimmy Mbane and Dube and the Gipsman.
MR HUGO: And did you travel with a vehicle?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson, we drove the white minibus, which I drove.
MR HUGO: And to which residential area did you travel?
MR RADEBE: We went to KwaMashu and I did not know the place.
MR HUGO: And you then arrived at the house, and can you tell the Committee what took place then.
MR RADEBE: When we arrived at that particular house we did not stop near that house, we stopped one kilometre away from the house and then Const Dube and then Const Mbane and together with the Gipsman, those are the people who entered the house.
After that they called me and they informed me that I was their driver - they informed the person that I was their driver. Then I learnt that we would find people because they would come looking for a safe-house, then we told them that we have a safe-house ...(intervention)
MR HUGO: Before you arrive at that, you met Ms Kubheka, is that correct?
MR HUGO: Can you just tell the Honourable Committee how she looked, can you give them a description.
MR RADEBE: She was a stout person.
MR HUGO: Sorry Mr Chairman, I didn't hear the answer.
"She was a stout person"
MR HUGO: Very well. And lengthwise, was she tall or short?
MR RADEBE: She was medium, she wasn't tall neither short.
MR HUGO: And in terms of age, what did you estimate her age to be?
MR RADEBE: Between 40 and 45 years of age, at that time.
MR HUGO: Very well. And a conversation ensued between the four of you, and what was said during this discussion?
MR RADEBE: I came after they finished talking. As I've already stated that I remained in the car, a kilometre away from the house. They informed that there are people who are looking for a safe-house, "Are you able to take them there?" Then I said I have no problem.
MR HUGO: And then with regard to paragraph 15, where Mr Mbane and Mr Dube have stated that initially they had meetings with Ms Kubheka, which at face value, in terms of the statement, would appear to be prior to the time. What is your opinion, were they busy with negotiations long before you arrived at the scene, or did everything take place simultaneously?
MR RADEBE: They happened at that particular time because they were waiting for me. That was my first time to go there when I drove them there.
MR HUGO: And then in your statement you mention a person who was on his or her way from Zambia to the Kubheka residence, what arrangements did you make regarding this?
MR RADEBE: We informed them that when he arrived we'll come and collect him at night, when it's dark.
MR HUGO: Very well. And what took place then?
MR RADEBE: It happened that way. That person arrived, then we took him and then we instructed him to bring his arms, because in Durban there are roadblocks. We wanted him to believe us that we are not operating freely, but we are operating underground, because if we were to be free, or behaved to be free, he'll be surprised. So he gave us his firearms. If I remember well he gave me a Makarov pistol and AK, AK47, then I hid them inside the car.
We had an appointment with our white members, that we'd meet at KwaMashu highway. They took us out of the road, then I gave those firearms to Mr McCarter ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, to Mr who?
And was this person then delivered to Mr Hentie Botha and taken away?
MR RADEBE: ...(no English interpretation)
MR HUGO: And do you know what happened to him?
MR HUGO: And then in paragraph 20 ..(intervention)
MR LAX: Sorry, could I just ask something?
Didn't you ever testify about this man in court? That was your main function, to testify about these people, you told us that.
MR LAX: Well then what would have happened to the person if you didn't ever testify about him? You were part of the arrest of this man, surely you would testified if he'd appeared in court.
MR RADEBE: Chairperson when we arrested the person, in Vlakplaas they would phone Col de Kock, or send him a letter, that I should come. I was waiting for that brief, but it did not come. It would happen that if you have arrested a person in a particular district, you'd be notified as to whether when and where you will give evidence about that arrestee, but I was not informed. I thought it has been done the other way around.
MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
And then Mr Radebe, just briefly, in paragraph 20 of your affidavit you deal with Mr Mbane's allegation, that you would have shot a person through the head in your vehicle and that you would have left the corpse or the body at the Executive Hotel. What do you say about that?
MR RADEBE: That is not true, because I did not have a firearm, I was operating without a firearm as I was a driver. There was no person, if I remember well, that he was killed in that car. If it happened, I could have informed my seniors, so that if problems come, they would know. I would not make it my secret.
MR HUGO: Very well. And then in paragraph 21 you state that more persons were delivered to Hentie Botha's division. Do you know whether the man in the plaster of paris was ever delivered to them at any stage?
MR RADEBE: We returned him to Botha, because people didn't trust him in KwaMashu, they regarded him as a double agent, that we should take care of him. Therefore, we observed that we were working under pressure if we are with him.
MR HUGO: And do you know what happened to the plaster of paris man?
MR HUGO: You then state that Ms Kubheka became suspicious, is that correct?
MR HUGO: Why did she become suspicious?
MR RADEBE: She asked us as to whether where is our safe-house and that in Lusaka they are phoning as to whether what is happening to those people, because nothing is happening.
MR LAX: Can you just stop for a second.
MR HUGO: I apologise Mr Chairman, why I was leading him in Afrikaans is, we consult in Afrikaans. I should have done it in English, I'm sorry.
CHAIRPERSON: No, I'm just requesting you, not telling you to do it.
MR HUGO: No, we'll certainly try and do that. If you would correct my grammar, then it will be fine.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I appreciate that, Mr Hugo.
MR HUGO: Yes Mr Radebe, you said there in paragraph 23, that Ms Kubheka became suspicious, will you just repeat to us why you're saying that? What made you think that she's becoming suspicious?
INTERPRETER: The speaker's mike is not on.
CHAIRPERSON: If you could put your mike on.
MR RADEBE: She was asking us as to whether what's happening tot hose people who were in the safe-house, because she wants to see them and in Lusaka they are enquiring about their whereabouts because nothing is happening. That is where we went to report to our white members that we will not be able to continue, because this woman keeps on enquiring about the whereabouts of the people we are alleged to have accommodated. We decided, the three of us, that if they are not doing anything, we would not continue working with the operation.
MR HUGO: And did you realise that there could be problems for yourselves if you were to carry on with this particular operation whilst she has become suspicious?
MR RADEBE: That is correct Chairperson, we would be in problems because she was suspicious.
MR HUGO: And that you would maybe be identified as traitors and that your lives would be in danger?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HUGO: You then went to Mr Botha, and what was the discussion that ensued between the two of you?
MR RADEBE: Const Mbane and Const Dube, they were not quite conversant with Afrikaans, we decided that we will not be able to continue with the operation because the woman we usually go to, she's starting to be suspicious that we denied to take her to the safe-house. And then again, when she requested that one of those people should be brought to her, we are not able to do so, therefore we're going to have a problem.
MR HUGO: Now what was the solution to this problem, what did you and Mr Botha discuss and what did you decide to do about the problem?
MR RADEBE: That we should fetch her and bring her to where they are.
MR HUGO: And what arrangements did you make to take her to where they are? And we'll ask you about where they were supposed to be, in a minute, but what arrangements did you make with Ms Kubheka?
MR RADEBE: I don't remember well Chairperson, as to whether it was at the station or at Kentucky that we stated that we were not able to leave with her from the township, therefore we'd meet her either in the two places I've mentioned to this safe-house.
MR HUGO: What did you tell her, under what pretence did you get her to come to the station, if in fact she did go to the station? What did you tell her, why was she to come there?
MR RADEBE: I don't remember between Jimmy and Dube, who told her that he doesn't want people, the local people to see us in the township, because there was an allegation that there are people who are working underground in the township and with the pretence of being comrades. So we were afraid that maybe other people have seen us in the police station with that kombi, therefore we decided that she should come to town.
MR HUGO: Be it as it may, you then met her and what happened at this meeting?
MR RADEBE: We found her at the appointed place at the particular time. I don't know as to whether we went to the coast or to another place where white members took her, and then we went to Winkelspruit. There was a place called Winkelspruit where white members were staying there. We found that their cars are there and then we observed that they have arrived.
MR HUGO: Yes, and what can you recall about the activities that took place at Winkelspruit, after you arrived there?
MR RADEBE: There's nothing I observed because we were far. They were at a particular place and we were at another place and then we were tired. Since we started with the operation, I don't remember how many days we were not changing our clothes, we were not washing, we were dirty. So we had a feeling to wash and sleep, so that we could be refreshed.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you sleep at Winkelspruit that night?
MR RADEBE: Do you mean after Ms Kubheka arrived there?
MR RADEBE: We did not sleep at Winkelspruit, we slept at CR Swart.
CHAIRPERSON: How long did you stay at Winkelspruit after Ms Kubheka was apprehended, or caught?
MR RADEBE: After she has arrived we stayed a little bit, then we left thereafter.
CHAIRPERSON: Just want to get some idea as to how long you stayed, what is a little bit, a few hours or a few minutes? If you can just give an indication more-or-less.
MR RADEBE: Approximately two to three hours, though I don't remember well. Approximately two to three hours.
CHAIRPERSON: And why did you go there at all?
MR RADEBE: We wanted to find out as to whether should we go back to CR Swart or not.
MR HUGO: And Mr Radebe, did you have any idea as to what was being done to Ms Kubheka by the white members at Winkelspruit?
MR RADEBE: We were thinking that she was asked questions.
MR HUGO: And did you - when you abducted her and when she was taken to Winkelspruit, did you at any particular point in time foresee the possibility that she would be killed by the white members?
MR RADEBE: I heard the question that I did not know that she would be killed. I did not know those people who were taken to the alleged safe-house, as to whether they were alive or dead, but what I knew is that they wanted to eliminate the cell which was in KwaMashu.
MR HUGO: Were you ever told that they were going to kill Ms Kubheka, in particular, and that is why you had to abduct here and bring her to them?
MR HUGO: Then just in conclusion, did you - before this operation, did you know Ms Kubheka personally or did you have any sort of personal motive to kill her or to abduct her?
MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson, I did not know her up to the day where I saw her for the first time.
MR HUGO: And were you paid, or did you receive any compensation for your participation in this operation afterwards?
MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson, we who were members of the South African Police Force, were not paid any benefit, only members of the askaris were.
MR HUGO: And were just following the instructions of your seniors at the time?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR HUGO: And did you think that you were by partaking in this operation, that you were assisting the South African Police in their struggle against the ANC?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: You know Mr Hugo, these sorts of leading questions really have no value whatsoever, evidentiary. You've been leading him on and on and on about this sort of detail, one would expect that you wouldn't do that, that you're going to ask him what his motive was and what his objective was, that you'd let him tell us himself. Really, it doesn't assist him or us or his case at all when you lead him like this, because we don't know what he thinks.
MR HUGO: Yes Mr Chairman, let me rather rephrase it.
Why did you partake in this operation, what were you trying to achieve, Mr Radebe?
MR RADEBE: I was executing orders from my seniors.
MR HUGO: Yes, but what were you trying to achieve, what was the goal of following these orders?
MR RADEBE: So that we should not give the ANC an opportunity, that we should always be on top of it. That is ANC and PAC.
MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's the evidence.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hugo. Mr Visser, do you have any questions to put to Mr Radebe?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: A few, with your leave, thank you Chairperson.
Mr Radebe, I'm not quite sure what you said, but is it - I heard you to say that three blacks from Vlakplaas arrived and a number of white persons that you can't remember how many, is that correct?
MR VISSER: Well will it refresh your memory if I put it to you that Sgt Coetzer was one of the persons that was here in Durban at the relevant time in May 1987?
MR VISSER: And Mr McCarter, was he here?
MR VISSER: And you say Martiens Ras was also here.
MR RADEBE: Martiens Ras gave me orders at the police station, but I did not see him at Winkelspruit.
MR VISSER: Okay. And is it also true that Mr Baker arrived on a visit her while you were here? Captain Baker.
MR VISSER: Now I just want to make it clear, you were the most senior police office among the blacks, is that correct? You had the highest rank among the black members.
MR VISSER: Well which black person from Vlakplaas was in Durban, that had a higher rank than you?
MR RADEBE: Lieut Letsatsi, Lieut Mose and P J Radebe, W/O Koole.
MR LAX: You rattled off a whole lot of names very quickly, we didn't get them unfortunately, could you just repeat those names? You said Lieut Mojaji ...
MR LAX: L-e-t-s-a-t-s-i. Right.
MR VISSER: It appears to be spelt M-o-s-e.
MR VISSER: That's not you, is it?
MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson, it's my brother.
MR LAX: What's his first name, just so we can identify him separately from you?
MR RADEBE: Peggy Jacob Radebe.
MR VISSER: It's not really important. The point is - what I want to know is, when you were given orders to infiltrate this cell ...(end of side A of tape)
... how was the reporting to be done? Who had to report to whom? Start with Mr Jimmy Mbane, to whom did he have to report?
MR RADEBE: He was reporting to me and then I would go with them and report to white members.
MR VISSER: White members from Vlakplaas, or white members from the Durban Security Branch?
MR RADEBE: Mainly we would report to members who were coming from Vlakplaas.
MR VISSER: So the procedure was that Mr Mbane, if he had something to report, he'd tell you, you would tell either Sgt Coetzer or Mr Ras, here in Durban, what you've heard, and what would they then do with that information? Would they report it to somebody?
MR RADEBE: Yes, they would report to the senior member in Durban.
MR VISSER: Now who was that senior member in Durban, can you remember?
MR RADEBE: If I remember well it was Hentie Botha. Col Taylor was on leave on that particular time.
MR VISSER: Apparently - well you may be wrong you see, because Col Taylor was in fact present at the time when Ms Kubheka died at Winkelspruit.
MR RADEBE: When the operation started, Col Taylor was on leave, he came in the picture after we have abducted this woman. I don't dispute that fact, but when we started with this operation he was on leave, then I knew that the person who was in charge was Mr Botha.
MR VISSER: Well be that as it may, let's just talk about the day on which Kubheka was abducted and taken to Winkelspruit. On that day, was Mr Taylor present in Durban, as far as you can remember?
MR VISSER: You see, the point that I want to ask you is this, Col Taylor was senior to Mr Hentie Botha and there are indications that both Taylor and Botha gave instructions in regard to the penetration and infiltration of this KwaMashu cell, would you be able to deny that?
MR RADEBE: I would not dispute that because I did not know.
MR VISSER: You see, and I was going to put this to Mr Mbane as well, but what we saw yesterday Chairperson, in the diary of the docket, of the police docket, are notes taken by - I thought I had the name here, by somebody of a consultation of Mr Jimmy Mbane, and Mr Mbane says, according to these notes, and I will ask him when he gives evidence, that Taylor told him apparently, to go and fetch Kubheka and take her to the beach. Mr Taylor told him that. Could that be correct?
MR RADEBE: I remember that I used to get instructions from Hentie Botha, but I did not see Col Taylor. Even if he was there, I would not be surprised.
MR VISSER: You wouldn't be surprised. You see, the point is, Mr Botha gave evidence to say that the abduction of Kubheka was a mistake, it jeopardised the whole operation of infiltration into her cell in order to find out who the MK Commanders were. He said it was a mistake to have abducted her. What do you say of that?
MR RADEBE: It is correct Chairperson, that if we took her and did not reveal that information, because she was now aware that those people who pretended to be comrades were lying.
MR VISSER: Yes, well see that's the point, that's exactly the point. Can I just tell you what the evidence was, Mr Radebe, and then you can tell the Committee whether you agree with this. Botha gave evidence to say that particularly Mr Mbane, was given instructions to infiltrate this operation that was run by Ms Kubheka and that a long time, about six weeks went by in which Mbane wasn't able to come forth with information about where MK infiltrators were in Durban. Do you remember anything like that?
MR VISSER: Alright. Is it possible that it did happen?
MR RADEBE: I don't know, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And Botha then gave evidence to say that he became anxious and he told Mr Mbane that at a certain day he must bring, he must see to it that he will bring the MK Commander of a group of MKs in Durban, I think there were four that had infiltrated, but he must bring the Commander in his car to Battery Beach, so that he could be arrested. Do you know of such an instruction from Botha?
MR VISSER: And as I've put to you before, he says that when they pounced on the car they found Kubheka there and not the MK Commander, and that was a mistake. As far as you're concerned, you say - well, what do you say?
MR RADEBE: I knew that initially we were given instructions that we should go and fetch her, because we were given instructions to do so.
MR VISSER: You understand what I'm putting to you, I'm putting to you that it wasn't Botha that gave you those instructions, but it could have been Mr Taylor, and you said you don't know.
MR RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Right. Now ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, you yourself, are you saying - I just want to get this clear Mr Visser.
Are you saying you can't remember who gave you instructions, or are you saying it may have been Taylor? Because what's confusing me is because you said that as far as you were concerned, Taylor was on leave and you didn't see him.
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson, I did not see Taylor. I never heard anything from him or about him. I did not see him.
CHAIRPERSON: Who gave you the instruction to fetch Ms Kubheka?
MR RADEBE: We informed Joe Coetzer to tell Botha that that woman is starting to be suspicious and therefore we will not be able to continue because our lives would be in danger.
MR LAX: Yes, but you still haven't said who gave you the instruction.
MR RADEBE: We sent Joe Coetzer to Mr Botha and Mr Botha replied, or responded by saying we should go an fetch her.
MR LAX: Who did he reply that through, through Coetzer, through Ras, personally?
MR RADEBE: Coetzer, I still remember that we were playing with his pellet gun, he was teaching us to aim using his pellet gun to shoot the packet of cigarettes. So I remember he's the one that came with the response that we should go and fetch her.
MR LAX: And you're clear that that response was via Botha to Coetzer to you?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that actually clarifies what I was trying to clarify. Thank you.
So can I ask you this, you were also in Durban during February 1987, can you remember that?
MR VISSER: Well you see in February 1987, there was a person killed in Durban, Mr Stanley Sipho Bhila. Can you remember whether you had anything to do with that incident?
MR VISSER: You see, that person was picked up and abducted from a Kentucky Fried Chicken venue in KwaMashu. Do you know anything about that?
MR VISSER: And he was taken also to Winkelspruit and from Winkelspruit he was taken away and he was eliminated and his body thrown over a cliff. Now the reason why I mention this to you is that it's quite clear to me, with respect, that Mr Mbane at least, is confusing these two incidents and I was just wondering whether you're not also suffering from some confusion between these two incidents.
MR RADEBE: I was not present on that one.
MR VISSER: And I'll tell you why you see, because the evidence so far in the case of Ms Kubheka, is that she was actually abducted from Battery Beach and taken by Wasserman and Botha and others, du Preez, to Winkelspruit, whereas Mr Mbane says that he took her to Winkelspruit after having abducted her from the Kentucky Fried Chicken in KwaMashu. Am I correct? I see there are shakes of heads that I am incorrect, perhaps I haven't got it quite right. Let me just check on that, Chairperson.
MR LAX: The evidence also is that she was brought to Battery Beach, having already been taken by other people in a vehicle.
CHAIRPERSON: It's not forcibly abducted though.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) been induced into a vehicle, she was taken to Battery Beach and then there was a fairly elaborate sort of abduction, people with guns and approaching cars from different directions and that sort of thing.
MR VISSER: I'm not quite sure what I said that is different from that, Chairperson, because Mbane's evidence as I remember it, is that he took her from KwaMashu to Winkelspruit, he didn't take her to the beach.
CHAIRPERSON: You mean his statement, not his evidence, he hasn't testified.
MR VISSER: No, no, well his statement. Sorry, statement. Am I correct in that, because that's my recollection Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't know, Mr Visser, I wouldn't like to challenge you as I sit here now.
MR LAX: The point I was simply making was that she was brought to battery beach, that's even the evidence of the applicants who have testified already, and then some sort of "abduction" was staged at that point.
MR VISSER: I'm putting to this witness now, Chairperson, as I understand what Mr Mbane's going to say, is that he took her from KwaMashu to Winkelspruit.
CHAIRPERSON: Without going to Battery Beach?
MR VISSER: Without going to Battery Beach.
MR SAMUEL: ; If I may assist. I don't think that is going to be the evidence, I don't know where that evidence comes from.
MR VISSER: Alright, it doesn't matter.
You in fact stated, Mr Radebe, that Ms Kubheka was handed over to the white officers near a highway. Do you remember having stated that in your ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, stated where? Not in the evidence here today, because my recollection was they handed some man over.
MR VISSER: That would be in his amnesty application, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Page 118, Chairperson, paragraph 48.
Now Mr Radebe, in your amnesty application in volume 1, page 118, in paragraph 48, you said:
"We arranged to meet at a highway. We then indeed then handed over the person to Hentie Botha."
The impression that you're creating is that it wasn't at Battery Beach, it wasn't at Winkelspruit, it was somewhere near a highway. Now can you explain that to us, that we can understand what you're saying?
MR LAX: Sorry, I don't see what's different to his earlier evidence or here, maybe you're the one that's confused Mr Visser, because his evidence so far in the statement, has been that initially the first person they handed over was handed over at a highway. That's exactly what he says here.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I'm trying to make the point that that first person was Bhila and it wasn't Kubheka. That's the whole point of this cross-examination.
MR LAX: But he's never said it was Kubheka, either in here or in his evidence today.
MR VISSER: If it is clear to you that it wasn't Kubheka that was handed over at a highway, then I'm happy, but I didn't think that was so clear.
MR LAX: It's crystal clear to me.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, but I think you can still - let's hear from Mr Radebe himself what he meant by this.
MR VISSER: That's all I'm asking, Chairperson.
What do you mean by this in this paragraph?
MR RADEBE: I stated that the person we took him out of the car at the highway, he was a male person. I said that it was a male person. Then I handed him over - I handed McCarter even the AK47 and the Makarov, on the highway.
MR VISSER: And that incident had nothing to do with Ms Kubheka, is that what you're saying? With what happened to her on that fateful day.
MR RADEBE: It is correct, Chairperson, because they happened on different occasions.
MR VISSER: Thank you, that's the only point. Now when you described Ms Kubheka as a stout person, it's difficult to ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: Can you start the question again.
CHAIRPERSON: He's just asked to repeat the question please Mr Visser.
MR VISSER: Okay. You said that Ms Kubheka was a stout person, do you recall?
MR VISSER: I'm told that her daughter is in the audience, and if it's not an inconvenience I was wondering whether Mr Radebe would give us the benefit of his recollection of Kubheka's physical build, by comparison to the daughter and I was going to ask you if you would allow her to be asked just to stand if she is in the audience. I see her here, Chairperson, in the second row in the middle, and perhaps Mr Radebe can give us some better idea of what he means by stout.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't know who the daughter is or the name of the daughter.
MR VISSER: I believe it's a person in the second row, with the darkish jersey on, Chairperson, she could just confirm whether she's the daughter or not, if I'm wrong I'm wrong.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you mind standing up? Are you the daughter of Ms Kubheka, the deceased? Thank you very much.
Mr Radebe, you've seen the person who stood up ...(intervention)
MR RADEBE: I did, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And if you were to compare from your recollection the build of Ms Kubheka to the person who just stood up in the audience, would you say it's the same, different and how different?
MR RADEBE: The person who stood up is a little bit taller, but in terms of the body build, Ms Kubheka was a little bit on the heavy side.
MR VISSER: On the heavy side? What do you mean by "a little bit on the heavy side"? Bigger or smaller or the same as the person that stood up in the audience?
MR RADEBE: She was a little bit heavier, weightier than the person who stood up.
MR VISSER: Have you had an opportunity of looking at a dress yesterday, Mr Radebe?
MR RADEBE: I did Chairperson, I saw it here.
MR VISSER: Is that the dress that is alleged to have come out of a grave, a maroon dress?
MR RADEBE: Yes, it was of a smaller size.
MR VISSER: Would that dress have fitted Ms Kubheka, if you had to express an opinion?
MR RADEBE: It was a smaller size.
MR VISSER: You're referring to Ms Kubheka or to the dress?
MR RADEBE: I'm referring to the dress, Chairperson, when I say it is of a smaller size.
MR VISSER: Just to make it absolutely clear, in my mind at least, you spoke in your evidence today about weapons that you handed to Mr McCarter, if I remember correctly, is that correct? And you referred to a Makarov and then you referred to an AK47, do you remember that?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Was this on this day during the abduction of Ms Kubheka, or was that again in the case of the other gentleman?
MR RADEBE: It was during the day or when we dropped this male person on the highway.
MR VISSER: The male person, alright. Fine. Now a strange thing that I want to ask you to tell the Committee about, is that Mr Jimmy Mbane stated, or it was put on his behalf, that on this day when Ms Kubheka was taken to Winkelspruit, he slept on the veranda in that building and he says that on that particular day he was going to bed, or he went to bed while Ms Kubheka was being interrogated in the storeroom at Winkelspruit. What do you say about that?
MR RADEBE: I stated that I, Jimmy and Dube were tired. I don't remember where Jimmy was, but I and Dube slept in the kombi and when I woke up I told him that we should go and wash and change our clothes.
MR VISSER: Yes. Actually that was put on your behalf by Mr Hugo as well. You see, the question here is, who is right and who is wrong? Did you in fact stay at CR Swart or did you in fact stay out at Winkelspruit while the Vlakplaas squad was here?
MR RADEBE: Please repeat your question.
MR VISSER: Are you correct in saying that you stayed at CR Swart in the hall on the fist floor while you were here from Pretoria, or are you making a mistake and is Mr Mbane correct, that actually all of you stayed out at Winkelspruit, that you camped there?
MR RADEBE: Even our belongings and even Mbane's belongings were at first floor at CR Swart Police Station, next to the Dog Unit.
MR VISSER: Yes. So he would not have had blankets or other bedding there at Winkelspruit, as far as you recall, is that correct?
MR RADEBE: Yes, Chairperson, we didn't even have clothes to change.
MR VISSER: You see, because Mr Mbane says that from where he went to sleep on the veranda, he saw and heard that Ms Kubheka was tortured until she died. Now do you know anything about that?
MR RADEBE: No Chairperson, at the place where she was tortured only white members were staying there and in many occasions we were staying far from white members.
MR VISSER: But all the same, if she was tortured to death, do you think you would have known about it, given the circumstances there at Winkelspruit?
MR RADEBE: If they informed me I would know.
MR VISSER: Do you think you might have heard her crying out if she were tortured?
MR RADEBE: I was far from her and the current in the sea was a little bit high and the cars were passing by.
MR VISSER: Do you recall hearing any firearms being discharged on that evening while she was at Winkelspruit?
MR RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr Nel, do you have any questions that you would like to ask?
MR NEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I've go not questions. Thank you, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe, do you have any questions that you'd like to ask Mr Radebe?
MR VAN DER MERWE: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, do you have any questions that you would like to ask Mr Radebe?
MR WILLS: Yes thank you, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, just before Mr Wills starts and just that the point doesn't go lost, as far as the identification of Mr Radebe is concerned, regarding the daughter, I was just wondering whether it would be adequate for you to give a description on the record or whether we could ask for the daughter perhaps to be measured, or the length and the girth, so that we can have some caparison for the record, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Kubheka, do you mind standing up again please. It's difficult from where I'm standing, to estimate a height, but perhaps if - Ms Kubheka, if you could perhaps tell us - do you know what your height is? You don't know the measurements. It's difficult for me to estimate because one estimates 5'6" or 5'5" or 5'7", it a big difference and I certainly won't be able to estimate. She's not small, she not short and she's not slender. Perhaps, Mr Wills, I don't know what could be done to get an arrangement as to her measurements.
MR WILLS: If I could just deal with this during the tea adjournment.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think we can do that, thank you.
MR VISSER: That would helpful, Chairperson, and perhaps Mr Wills can find out how old this person is as well.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Thank you, Ms Kubheka, thank you very much, sorry to inconvenience you.
MR WILLS: May I continue, Mr Chairperson?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Mr Radebe, I understand from your evidence that you didn't see the deceased in this matter, Ntombi Kubheka, on many occasions, is that right?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR WILLS: How many times did you see her?
MR RADEBE: Not more than five times
MR WILLS: And this was thirteen years ago?
MR RADEBE: Mr Wills we know that.
MR WILLS: Yes. So how is it that you are able to give such an accurate, or how are you able to describe her size? What makes you remember clearly that for example, the daughter who stood up is heavier than her?
CHAIRPERSON: He said that Ms Kubheka was heavier than the daughter.
MR WILLS: I apologise, Mr Chairperson.
How is it that you are able to say to the Committee that Ms Kubheka was heavier than the daughter, for example? What makes you so sure?
MR RADEBE: In terms of my observations they are not of the same size. I stated that I have a problem with my memory, but my recollection says Ms Kubheka is a little bit heavier compared to the daughter.
MR WILLS: Are you saying that you might be mistaken in your observation?
INTERPRETER: Sorry Chairperson, we have other people speaking and they interfere.
CHAIRPERSON: If you can repeat the question, apparently there were two people speaking at the same time. Mr Wills, if you could just repeat your question.
MR WILLS: Are you implying that you could be mistaken with your identification? Because I'll tell you why, because the family of the deceased in this matter, are convinced that she was a lot smaller and a lot lighter than the individual in respect of whom you said that she was heavier. In other words, the family who know her well, say that she wasn't as big as the daughter.
MR RADEBE: At the time when I saw her, in terms of my own observations, she was more weightier than the daughter.
MR WILLS: Now did you have any direct communications with Hentie Botha, between you and Botha, or were your instructions always given through a third person?
CHAIRPERSON: In relation to this operation, this particular operation?
MR WILLS: Yes, in relation to this operation.
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: What is correct, because two propositions were put to you? Did you have direct dealings with Hentie Botha, in regard to this operation, or were your dealings with him through some other person, such as Coetzer?
MR RADEBE: Chairperson, if I understand the question well, the question was saying is there any third person or was I speaking directly with Mr Botha. So my answer is, there was always an intermediary between myself and Mr Botha, but they would send us but they did not trust us so much. So even during the operation they would tell us to keep quiet, that if their operation is exposed, they will know that it's us because we were not trusted.
MR WILLS: And who would tell you this?
MR RADEBE: That whites were not trusting us?
MR WILLS: Ja, who would tell you this?
MR RADEBE: You would hear by the language used, that we would be told that, because we were involved in the particular operation, that we should not even tell our colleagues or any other person who was involved in that operation. Therefore, that was a sign that we were not trusted. That was my understanding. I would tell my colleague that what I was doing, but we were instructed not to expose this to any other person who was not involved.
MR WILLS: What I'm asking you is, who gave those instructions directly? Which white person in other words, told you that?
MR RADEBE: Firstly it was Ras, then thereafter it was Joe Coetzer.
MR LAX: I don't think you understood the question. The question was, which white person told you not to say anything about this operation?
MR RADEBE: All Vlakplaas white members informed us that we should not expose anything about the operation.
MR RADEBE: Not only this one, but in all operations where we were involved.
MR LAX: Yes, but Mr Radebe, we're dealing with this operation. Who told you not to say a word about this operation? If you can't remember, say you can't remember.
MR RADEBE: I don't remember who is that person, Chairperson.
MR WILLS: Is it possible that Mr Botha had spoken to you directly and you can't remember?
MR RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson.
MR WILLS: As I understand your evidence, and I just want you to confirm this, as regards the purpose of the operation that day when Mrs Kubheka was abducted, the purpose of the operation was clearly to take Ms Kubheka and deliver her to the white superiors, is that right? You're clear on that?
MR WILLS: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills. Mr Samuel, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Radebe?
MR SAMUEL: Yes, Mr Chairman. In view of the fact that he's been with my client, it will be necessary for me to ask him certain questions and to put my client's version to him. If I may proceed?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL: Thank you.
Mr Radebe, you told this Commission as at today, that you suffered with various illnesses, like high blood pressure and sugar and things like that and also that your memory is not so good, is that correct?
MR SAMUEL: Now I want to put it to you that my client has no such illnesses or lapse of memory, he will tell this Commission that he has a clear recollection of this incident involving Ms Kubheka, and he will say in fact that everything you have told this Commission so far, almost everything is what Jimmy Mbane will confirm. However, in regard to the colour of the motor vehicle that was driven on that day, the kombi, it was in fact white and blue. Do you still maintain that the kombi was blue?
CHAIRPERSON: No, he said it was white. Mr Radebe said he drove the white kombi and Mr Mbane in his statement said he went in a blue kombi. So if you could just put that again, start from the start again.
MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Radebe, Mr Mbane will say that the kombi was in fact blue and not white as you maintain, the kombi that you all used to use. Blue and not white.
MR RADEBE: I dispute what he's saying because the blue kombi belonged to Sgt Almond Nofomela. It was used by him, therefore it was not possible to use his kombi unless they would go to a particular police station and then they would give us another car, but if you use the kombi which has been authorised to you, you'd use it all the time. So I was authorised a white minibus.
MR SAMUEL: You know I've gone through the evidence in this matter and I notice, subject to correction, that at certain times vehicles used to be re-spray painted, because they didn't want anyone to know that you all were using one particular vehicle. Do you recall that?
MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson, I don't remember that point.
MR SAMUEL: Alright, be that as it may. Now you'll agree with us that because Ms Kubheka was becoming suspicious, you all then informed - when I say "you all", it will be yourself, Mr Mbane and Mr Dube, would have informed your superiors about Ms Kubheka's suspicions. Am I right? You confirm that she was becoming suspicious?
MR SAMUEL: And Mr Mbane will say that Mr Taylor had informed you all that you all should pick Ms Kubheka up and bring her to him, or to the white colleagues.
MR RADEBE: I don't remember being informed by Mr Taylor, I remember that we were told by Mr Coetzer.
MR SAMUEL: Alright. That might be so according to your version, because of your illnesses presently, but Mr Mbane can confirm that Mr Taylor had told him that, or told you all to pick up Ms Kubheka. If I may proceed.
Now is it not true that even at that stage, in 1987, you suffered with an eye problem, am I right, in that you could not drive in the night? You had difficulty driving at night.
MR RADEBE: I had no eyesight problem in 1987.
CHAIRPERSON: Did you have any difficulty in driving at night? Some people have that difficulty without having a particular eye problem.
MR RADEBE: Which year, Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, I didn't ...(intervention)
MR RADEBE: Which year, Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: 1987, the year that the abduction took place in Durban.
MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson, that is not true.
MR SAMUEL: You see, I refer to paragraph 20 of Exhibit G, and Mr Mbane will say that on that day in question - sorry, before I come to that, is it not true that Mr Mbane and Mr Dube were also drivers?
MR RADEBE: Dube was driving. I and Mbane, we were heavily drunk, therefore Mr Dube was not drinking. But on that particular day we were drunk, it is not that I had an eyesight problem.
MR SAMUEL: What are you saying now, that you were drunk and therefore you could not drive with motor vehicle?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that the day that Ms Kubheka was abducted, when I say abducted, the day that she was picked up, either at the station of the Kentucky and taken down and handed over to the white policemen, you were drunk?
MR RADEBE: Not on that particular day, the day when I was drunk was the first time when I saw her. Then ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: That's the day that you parked a kilometre away from the house?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
All I want to know is that on occasions you will alternate driving, in that Mr Dube or Mr Mbane or yourself would drive a motor vehicle on a specific operation. You were not the only driver in that team, is that correct?
MR RADEBE: I was the driver because they did not have a driver's licence, and then I would not give them the opportunity to drive without a driver's licence.
MR LAX: Sorry, can I just ask something here.
You told us explicitly in your evidence-in-chief, that you drove on that first day to KwaMashu and you parked the car a kilometre away and you told us you were driving, now you say you were so drunk you couldn't drive, Dube had driven. Please explain this to me.
MR RADEBE: That's correct, Chairperson, I let Dube drive on the first visit to Ms Kubheka, because I was drunk. If I'm sober I would not allow him to drive, because if he is engaged in an accident, he would say I gave him the opportunity to do so without a driver's licence.
CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Lax has asked you is, when you were giving your evidence now today, in-chief, before you started - while you were still being asked questions by Mr Hugo, you said that you drove the vehicle to Ms Kubheka's house and parked it about a kilometre away and the others waited and then - you waited in the car and the others went to the house and later came back to you. That's what Mr Lax was asking you. He wants to know why did you say that and now you say well you didn't drive but Dube did, because you were too drunk.
MR RADEBE: I did not explain well. I was driving when we went there. After we introduced ourselves to Ms Kubheka, we started drinking, that's where Dube started to drive, when we returned. Dube was not an alcohol drinker, I and Mr Mbane were drinking alcohol.
MR LAX: Well you never told us anything about sitting down and drinking there with the others while you were at Kubheka's place, or with her, as you've just said now. You never said a word about that in your evidence-in-chief or anywhere else under cross-examination. Why didn't you tell us that you stopped there and you had a few drinks and you had a nice party and then, only then, you decided to drive off? Was it usual to drink on duty?
MR RADEBE: During the operation you would drink, but in our normal duty we would not drink. If you are given an offer to drink, we would do so. If we infiltrated a person and he gives us alcohol and then we say we don't want to drink, we'd create a suspicion.
MR LAX: Why, lot's of people don't drink?
MR RADEBE: Jimmy started to tell Ms Kubheka that we are drinking and that she should organise a whisky.
ADV BOSMAN: If I understand you correctly, are you saying that you tried to make yourselves more acceptable to her in this process of infiltration? Is this what you are trying to tell us, Mr Radebe?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chair.
Now inasmuch, Jimmy will say - alright, the Corolla, were you in charge of the Corolla also?
MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson, it belonged to the Durban people.
MR SAMUEL: And is it not true that although Jimmy Mbane did not have a licence, on occasion he drove around, either your vehicle, the kombi, or the Corolla, when you all went on operations?
MR RADEBE: They would not drive my kombi when I was there, they may drive when we clean it when they shipped it from a spot to another spot, but not that he would enter into a public road with it.
MR SAMUEL: Right. Let's go to paragraph 20 of Exhibit G. Now Jimmy Mbane in his statement also says that he was the driver of the motor vehicle, of the kombi on that day, we don't know exactly what date that was, when you all had killed a person and through the body at the Executive Hotel, now the only reason - although we want to restrict ourselves to the Kubheka matter, the only reason I'm questioning you on this is because you had raised this matter. Jimmy Mbane will say that he drove the kombi on that day.
MR SAMUEL: And if he had ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: What do you mean to say you don't know that? What do you mean, do you mean you don't remember or are you denying it? What do you mean when you say
"I don't know that"
MR RADEBE: When it is stated that Jimmy was driving, then I murdered a person, I don't agree with that.
MR SAMUEL: He will say that - and am I correct in saying that if Jimmy in fact had driven a vehicle, you would have been free to do whatever you had wanted to do, am I right? There would have been no impediment as such, for you to shoot the man and ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Maybe he might have not been sober, too drunk to do anything.
MR SAMUEL: Most probably too drunk to even remember that he did commit an offence.
MR LAX: Sorry, can you just put the question to him, rather than making comments.
My question to you is, if what Jimmy says is true, that he had driven the vehicle on the night in question, in regard to paragraph 20 of Exhibit G, then you would have been free to do what Jimmy says you did, and that is shoot the man in the head and dispose of the body at the Executive Hotel.
CHAIRPERSON: He's disputed that that's happened. We know that somebody sitting in a car can do things, even if you're driving you can do things other than just driving.
MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Now Jimmy will say that on the day when you all picked Ms Kubheka up at the railway station, at the Durban station, he was the driver of the Corolla on that day.
MR RADEBE: It is possible, but I don't remember.
MR SAMUEL: He will say that Mr Dube was in the back seat of the Corolla with Ms Kubheka and you were on the passenger seat in the front.
MR RADEBE: That is not so, Chairperson, we used a kombi. If I remember well, we used a kombi. Another point is that Jimmy at that - during that time, Jimmy was a terrible driver and he did not have a licence, therefore in Durban where you have a congestion of traffic, it's not safe to give a person like Jimmy an opportunity to drive. If you are normal you would not allow Jimmy to drive.
MR SAMUEL: Are you certain that on that day you have a clear recollection that when Ms Kubheka was picked up, she was picked up by your kombi, in your kombi, or your usual kombi on that day?
MR RADEBE: Yes, because Ms Kubheka knew the kombi and then if we used a different car, she would be suspicious. We did not have an alternative to change the car, because she knew the kombi and therefore we had to use the kombi.
MR SAMUEL: ...(indistinct) in his evidence also says that a Corolla brought Ms Kubheka on that day, to Battery Beach.
MR RADEBE: I don't remember, but my recollection says we used a kombi, because Ms Kubheka would be surprised because in the first instance we used a kombi, then if we used a different car, she would be surprised and she would be suspicious.
CHAIRPERSON: I think if you could just restrict yourself to answering the questions, if you can't remember then you must say so, rather than come up with some assumption and then after further questions it only appears that what you said was an assumption. Just answer the questions as they're put to you. If you can't remember, say so.
He will say that after Ms Kubheka was taken by Hentie Botha and the others, you all then proceeded to Winkelspruit.
MR SAMUEL: And he will say that you all remained at Winkelspruit on that evening when Ms Kubheka died.
MR RADEBE: I did not see that, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying, Mr Samuel, just to get it clear, that they stayed there the whole night?
CHAIRPERSON: Till the next morning?
MR SAMUEL: Till the next morning.
CHAIRPERSON: That's what they say.
What do you say to that, Mr Radebe? That you went to Winkelspruit and you stayed there the whole night until the next morning.
MR RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson.
MR SAMUEL: And he will say that at Winkelspruit, although you all had quarters at CR Swart, most times on operations, it's his evidence that most of the time the askaris stayed at Winkelspruit.
MR RADEBE: I knew that we stayed at CR Swart.
CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Samuel is putting to you just for your comment, is that, he's saying that when on operations in Durban, most of the time the askaris stayed at Winkelspruit. You were not an askari.
MR RADEBE: I apologise Chairperson. It's correct, because I was not in all operations in Durban.
MR SAMUEL: Alright. And he will also say that any person involved in an operation, that's including you now, during that operation and until that operation is completed, you all will stay at Winkelspruit.
MR RADEBE: I was involved in one operation here, then I told them that I am tired, I want to wash because I did not change my clothes, therefore I told them that I'm leaving to go and wash.
MR SAMUEL: Mr Mbane will say that on the day in question of this incident, you all stayed, you together with Mr Dube and Mr Mbane, stayed at Winkelspruit on the day when Ms Kubheka was killed, or died.
MR RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson.
MR SAMUEL: Okay. So Jimmy will say ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: Chairperson, I request a minute. I ask the question because his voice is fainting.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see it's ...(indistinct) eleven, I think this would be a convenient time to take the tea break. We'll now adjourn until half past eleven.
MR WILLS: Yes Mr Chairperson, just on that issue of measurements for the daughter, the family have agreed that we will have her examined by a practitioner and her measurements will be supplied to the Commission so there's no doubt about her height and her weight and at the same time they will do the same for other family members who will also be used in a similar process later on, on our side of the case.
Just to place on record Mr Chairperson, that the daughter is particularly upset about this, she is still quite young and she feels quite unprotected as regards this process and so she's quite sensitive to identifications of this nature. The family express their desire that she be treat with the due care. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Wills, for that, we take note of what you have said and understand that she does feel sensitive about the matter.
That's acceptable, Mr Visser, that we'll be supplied with measurements at a later stage?
MR VISSER: Yes thank you, Chairperson, that's acceptable. Perhaps Mr Wills can also tell us what size dresses she wears, that would also be helpful.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you. Mr Samuel?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL: (cont)
Mr Radebe, I put it to you that these operations that you all were on, you all wanted to keep it as secretive as possible, am I right?
MR SAMUEL: And you all didn't want anyone to know that you all were linked to the South African Police or the Security Branch of the South African Police, am I right?
MR SAMUEL: Then I'll put it to you that it would have been more convenient for you all to remain at Winkelspruit throughout these operations, instead of you all commuting between Winkelspruit and CR Swart, where the possibility of someone seeing you all at CR Swart was greater.
MR RADEBE: It was possible Chairperson, that even before the operation we may be seen, but we trying by all means not to be identified.
CHAIRPERSON: I think what Mr Samuel is putting to you is that if you stayed at the CR Swart Police Station, which is in town, in Durban, and you were going there while doing operations in Durban over a period of weeks, every night, to sleep and getting up every morning and leaving those premises, you were at a far greater risk of being identified as policemen and therefore he's putting it to you that you would stay at Winkelspruit more often than not, when in Durban.
MR SAMUEL: And I want to put it to you, on the night in question when Ms Kubheka got killed or had passed away, that you all - in fact, you also stayed on at Winkelspruit throughout that evening.
MR SAMUEL: Thank you. So it's possible that you were there.
Now Mr Mbane will say that after you all had handed Ms Kubheka to your handlers at - after you all arrived at Winkelspruit, Ms Kubheka was interrogated. Have you got anything to say to that?
MR RADEBE: I don't know what they were doing, there's no other way she could have been interrogated.
MR SAMUEL: He will say ..(intervention)
What do you mean "there's no other way she could have been interrogated"?
INTERPRETER: He's actually meaning that there's nothing they could have done other than interrogate her.
MR SAMUEL: So you confirm that she was interrogated?
CHAIRPERSON: My understanding of his answer Mr Samuel, is that he doesn't know but he assumes that she was being interrogated. He didn't go so far as to say that he actually witnessed it. You can perhaps ask that if you want to.
MR SAMUEL: Mr Mbane will say that during this interrogation he had heard Ms Kubheka scream.
MR RADEBE: That's what he heard, but I don't know.
MR SAMUEL: And I want to put it to you that the road that you referred to is in fact behind the building where Ms Kubheka was interrogated and it would have been very easy if someone had screamed in that building you all would have been the first to hear before the noise of the traffic behind the building.
MR RADEBE: I did not hear her.
MR SAMUEL: And Mr Mbane will say that when it came time to sleep he had slept in the veranda. We had an in loco inspection and we've noticed that there is a place similar to a veranda, and that is where he slept.
CHAIRPERSON: I think we noted that at the inspection in loco there wasn't a roof above the veranda, but there was evidence that at the time there was a roof that went from the one room to the other, which made it a covered veranda.
MR SAMUEL: That is correct, Mr Chairman.
MR SAMUEL: And if he had slept where he says he had slept in that veranda, he would have a clear view of the going on if that door was open in that room,
CHAIRPERSON: Well who has a clear view when they're sleeping?
MR SAMUEL: Sorry, I didn't mean fast asleep, if he was lying down he was supposed to be sleeping.
MR RADEBE: I would not be able to say, because I was at a distance from that building because I was in a kombi.
MR SAMUEL: Mr Mbane will say that whenever you resided or stayed over at Winkelspruit, you always slept in a kombi and on the night in question you remained in the kombi.
MR RADEBE: Was I alone in the kombi?
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) It's not for you to ask questions. What he's saying is, when you slept, you yourself slept at Winkelspruit, you always slept in the kombi and on the night in question, the night that Ms Kubheka was brought to Winkelspruit, you were in the kombi. That's what he's saying. Do you agree with that or not?
MR SAMUEL: And he will say that on the night in question you slept alone in the kombi whilst he slept with Mr Dube in the veranda.
MR RADEBE: If I remember well, Dube was sleeping at the back seat of the kombi and I was sleeping in the middle seat of the kombi, then in front you'll not be able to sleep.
MR SAMUEL: Now you agree with us that you slept in the kombi and you did not sleep at CR Swart on the night in question.
MR RADEBE: I stated that I was lying down in the kombi, I used to sleep and wake up, up to a point where I raised my complaint that I want to change and wash. I don't remember staying there the whole night.
MR SAMUEL: Now Mr Mbane will say that he had noticed when Ms Kubheka's body was removed from that room. I'm sure you would not have seen that, so you cannot admit or deny that. Am I right?
MR RADEBE: If I was sleeping on the veranda like Mr Mbane, I could have, but I did not because I was in the kombi.
MR SAMUEL: So you cannot admit or deny whether Mr Mbane in fact saw the removal of the body?
MR RADEBE: I would not Chairperson, because the way he stated he's saying he was sleeping on the veranda and is able to explain what happened. I was at a distance, I did not see what happened.
MR SAMUEL: Do you recall whether Mr Miyeza(?) was present on that night?
INTERPRETER: Can you repeat that question. Who?
CHAIRPERSON: Just repeat the name and the question please.
Do you recall whether Mr Miyeza arrived there after you all had gone to Winkelspruit?
MR RADEBE: I was told by Jimmy that Miyeza was present.
MR SAMUEL: That was on the same day, did Jimmy tell you that on the same day or the next day?
MR RADEBE: I don't remember as to whether it was on that day or any other day.
MR SAMUEL: Jimmy will say that he noticed Mr Miyeza assist in carrying the body. You don't know about that, am I right?
MR RADEBE: I do not, Chairperson.
MR SAMUEL: Now if Mr Mbane, Jimmy was paid for the operations that he was engaged in, would you know about it?
INTERPRETER: Could you repeat the question again.
MR SAMUEL: If Mr Jimmy Mbane was paid for the operations that he was involved in, would you know about it?
MR RADEBE: I would know that he would be paid, but I would not know how much.
MR SAMUEL: Do you agree that Mr Mbane was paid for certain operations, am I right?
MR SAMUEL: You were not present when Mr Mbane handed Ms Kubheka the AK47 rifles, am I right? That was prior to you being introduced to Ms Kubheka.
MR RADEBE: I did not see Jimmy having an AK47, or handing over the AK47 to Ms Kubheka.
MR SAMUEL: No further questions, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Radebe?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Yes, Mr Chair, I do. Thank you.
Mr Radebe, when Coetzer instructed you to bring Ms Kubheka, did he tell you who to bring her to?
MR RADEBE: I knew that I was taking her to white members, but he did not mention names specifically.
MS THABETHE: Were there any plans, or were you instructed where to take her to?
MR RADEBE: Yes, there was a plan. I don't remember well as to whether we should take her from Kentucky or from the station, or near the sea. I don't remember well or where we handed her over to white members. I don't know as to whether it was near the sea or not.
MS THABETHE: When you were instructed to go and get Ms Kubheka, were any reasons advanced why she had to be brought to the white members?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS THABETHE: What reasons were advanced?
MR RADEBE: It's because we should try by all means to erase our trail, or to prevent any trail for us to be identified.
MS THABETHE: I don't think maybe you understand my question. My question is, when you were told or instructed to bring Ms Kubheka to the white members, were you given reasons why she had to be brought to the white members?
MR RADEBE: It was because she started to have a suspicion about safe-houses and the whereabouts of people we took, and then again we were afraid that they would suspect and then again our lives would be in danger.
MS THABETHE: You see according to ...(intervention)
MR LAX: Could I just follow up here.
So the main reason she was brought in was to cover the tracks that you guys had created in your contact with her?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson
MR LAX: And how would the tracks be covered?
MR RADEBE: By taking her for an interrogation, because people used to see us there. Usually the members of the Security Branch in Durban were not able to infiltrate ANC members because they were known, and we were not known.
MR LAX: ...(indistinct) how you were known. How would you erase your tracks? You certainly wouldn't erase them by interrogating anybody, that doesn't erase your tracks, does it, it simply provides information.
MR RADEBE: At times it happens that a person would be recruited to work with us, then that's how we would erase our trails.
MR LAX: And if the person didn't want to be recruited, how would you then erase the trail?
MR RADEBE: Usually he would be taken to court and be sentenced.
MR LAX: Or alternatively, killed?
MR RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson, as it has happened with Ms Kubheka and others.
MR LAX: So you would simply eliminate those persons?
MR LAX: Carry on, Ms Thabethe, sorry.
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Lax.
You see Mr Radebe, Mr Botha gave evidence that there wasn't an order to abduct Ntombi Kubheka, initially, but the order was that Mbane would make an arrangement with her, pick her up and she would take him to the terrorists and those terrorists were the ones that you had to bring to Mr Botha. That's on page 1717 of the transcript. What would be your response to that version that was given by Mr Botha?
MR RADEBE: Ms Kubheka wanted to see the safe-house and in that safe-house were the terrorists.
MS THABETHE: I don't know whether you understand my question. My question is, Mr Botha said the instruction was not to abduct Ms Ntombi Kubheka, the instruction was that Ntombi Kubheka would take you to the terrorists and these terrorists were the ones that had to be brought to Mr Botha and his team, not Ntombi Kubheka. Would you say that's true?
MS THABETHE: I just want to find out how long before Ntombi Kubheka was arrested were these instructions were given to you, that you should bring her to the white members.
MS THABETHE: Was it ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Can you give some idea? I don't want the exact time period, was it the same day, was it an hour before, was it a few minutes before? Give us some idea of the time span. From the time that you say Mr Coetzer said that you must go and fetch Ms Kubheka, until the time that - what time, till the time that they picked her up at the station or at the Kentucky. Ms Thabethe, is that what you want to know?
MR RADEBE: Yes. Thank you, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: What was the time span between receiving that instruction and actually picking her up wherever you did?
MR RADEBE: The following day, Chairperson.
MR LAX: So you got the order on one day and then the next day you picked her up?
MR RADEBE: Jimmy phoned her, then we made an appointment through the phone that we'd meet on a particular day on the particular time and place the following day.
MS THABETHE: It's because on page 1718 of the transcript, Mr Samuel says his instructions are that Mr Botha had given instructions to you on the morning in question. Would you say that's correct?
MS THABETHE: Will it be correct to say you were the leader of the black team in this operation?
MS THABETHE: Okay. I didn't quite follow your evidence-in-chief, you say you met with Ms Kubheka either at Kentucky or the Durban station, you don't remember, and then what happened thereafter? Do you remember taking her to Battery Beach where she was abducted?
MR RADEBE: I remember that I took her either from Kentucky or the Station, I don't remember as to whether I took her anywhere near the sea. I don't remember. That is at the point where she was handed over to white members.
MS THABETHE: Was Dube with you?
MS THABETHE: And was Mbane with you as well?
MR RADEBE: Yes, if I remember well, he was present.
MS THABETHE: Okay. Do you remember seeing Ms Kubheka at Winkelspruit?
MS THABETHE: You never saw her there?
MS THABETHE: So are you saying or are you implying that from the time she was abducted, to the time she was brought to Winkelspruit, you don't remember what happened, whether you were there or you were not there?
MR RADEBE: I was not among the group which interrogated her.
MR LAX: But sorry, didn't you see her arrive there?
MR RADEBE: I did not, Chairperson.
MR LAX: If I remember correctly, in your evidence-in-chief you said you got to Winkelspruit, you saw that they arrived with her.
MR RADEBE: I did not say that, Chairperson, I said they went with her and then they arrived earlier than us.
MR LAX: ...(indistinct) the vehicles that were already there. It's fine. I was careful to say, if I remember correctly, I might well be wrong. It's not a problem. But you never saw her again ever?
MR RADEBE: Not at all, Chairperson.
MS THABETHE: When you arrived at Winkelspruit, who were you driving with in the car?
MR RADEBE: The person I remember is Dube, but I don't remember well, and it seems Jimmy was there, but I'm not sure about that one.
MS THABETHE: If you didn't see Ms Kubheka at Winkelspruit, when did you hear about the fact that she had died, if at all you did hear that she had died?
CHAIRPERSON: He's obviously heard it.
When did you first hear that the deceased died, Ms Kubheka died?
MR RADEBE: I learnt that from Jimmy, that she had a heart attack.
CHAIRPERSON: The questions was, when did you learn that?
CHAIRPERSON: Could you give us some idea of that time span, was it a few days or a few hours or the same day, the next day?
MR RADEBE: Some hours, Chairperson, but I do not remember the exact duration, but it's not after a long time.
MR LAX: Is that the same time he told you that he saw Miyeza there?
ADV BOSMAN: Do you perhaps remember where you were when you heard this?
MR RADEBE: We were in the kombi, but I don't remember well as to whether our car was parked or we were on our way to CR Swart Police Station, or where.
ADV BOSMAN: But according to your recollection, was it before you returned to CR Swart, before you arrived at CR Swart?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MS THABETHE: Mr Radebe, are you suggesting that - let's say you were on your way to CR Swart, Jimmy was with you when he told you? Are you suggesting that you drove from Winkelspruit to CR Swart with Jimmy?
MR RADEBE: Yes, Chairperson, we did not have toiletries with us and then our clothes were at CR Swart. If I remember well.
MS THABETHE: My question is, does this include Jimmy as well?
MR LAX: Can I just ask something in that regard, was this later the next day?
MR RADEBE: If I remember well, Chairperson, it's after hours. It's within hours, or maybe the following day in the morning, I don't remember.
MR LAX: Because how could Jimmy have seen those things during the night and then some hours later tell you about it? It must have been the next day.
MR RADEBE: I say so, Chairperson, that it is possible that it may be that way, I don't dispute that fact.
MR LAX: ...(indistinct) that's the case, did you go to CR Swart Square and then come back to Winkelspruit to pick Jimmy up, or did you sleep there the night and then leave afterwards?
MR RADEBE: When we returned to CR Swart we never went back to Winkelspruit.
MR LAX: So you must have gone back the next day. Because how would Jimmy have been able to tell you what he had seen happen?
MR RADEBE: Chairperson, it is possible that he told me on our way to CR Swart because we were three.
MR LAX: Precisely. But my point is, you didn't go back to CR Swart and then come back to Winkelspruit and then go back to CR Swart, you only went back to CR Swart once, that's what you've told us, on that day.
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: Was it daytime when you were going back?
MR RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson, as to whether it was in the morning or during the day.
MR LAX: But it was some hours after she was dead?
MR RADEBE: I don't what time she died.
MR LAX: Well surely when Jimmy told you about it, he must have told you that it had happened some hours earlier.
MR LAX: While you were all sleeping, because you didn't see it. Not so?
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Did Jimmy also tell you or inform you as the team leader, that he was asked to go back to the ...(indistinct) residence after she had died?
MR RADEBE: He did not inform me.
MR LAX: Sorry, just repeat the question please, I didn't hear it, something interfered with my earphone.
CHAIRPERSON: The questions was ...(indistinct)
INTERPRETER: The Chairperson's mike.
CHAIRPERSON: The question was, "Did Mbane tell you that he was asked to go back to the deceased's house after she had died?"
MR RADEBE: I don't remember as to whether he told me or not.
MS THABETHE: So did you know as to whether there was a ...(indistinct between Mr Coetzer and Mr Botha regarding the issue of Mbane going back to the deceased's house after she had died?
MR RADEBE: I did not know that, Chairperson.
MS THABETHE: My last question Mr Radebe is, I just want you to clarify exactly what you are applying for, because in your evidence you don't remember whether you were present when Ntombi Kubheka was abducted, you were not present when she was assaulted, you had no knowledge of how she died or when she died, you were not there. So exactly what are you applying for with regard to her incident, because you were not there at all, the instances?
MR RADEBE: I stated that I apply for amnesty, I would say to transport or to kidnap if ...(indistinct) kidnapping. To kidnap those people I was involved with.
MS THABETHE: I don't think I understand that answer.
CHAIRPERSON: He said that he's applying for amnesty for transporting and kidnapping the deceased.
INTERPRETER: And other people whom I transported and kidnapped.
CHAIRPERSON: And other people who were transported and kidnapped.
MS THABETHE: But I thought you had indicated that you were not present when she was abducted, you just picked her up from Kentucky and you don't remember what happened thereafter. So how can you apply for something you don't remember whether you did or didn't do?
MR RADEBE: If I was not responsible for her removal from Kentucky to a point where she was abducted, she was not known to them and therefore they would not be able to find her. So I took part in the kidnap. Like the first one we kidnapped from KwaMashu and then we handed him over to the white members.
CHAIRPERSON: All he said is he couldn't remember, he said it was somewhere near the sea, but he said he did pick her up and he did take her to the white members. He doesn't say he can't remember anything and he didn't do anything. He just can't remember details as to where he dropped her and that sort of thing.
MS THABETHE: Thank you, Mr Chair. I was under the impression that he says that he doesn't remember whether he was there or not when she was abducted. I thought that's what he said.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, not at all.
MS THABETHE: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Mr Chair, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Hugo, do you have any re-examination?
MR HUGO: No, thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, any questions you'd like to put to the applicant.
Mr Radebe, what do you understand by the use of the word "eliminate"?
MR RADEBE: In many instances it means, or it indicates killing.
MR LAX: You see you told us in your evidence that the whole object of this operation was to eliminate that cell.
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson, I was instructed that the objective was to eliminate the cell in KwaMashu.
CHAIRPERSON: Could somebody please switch their cellphone off. Sorry, Mr Lax, about that interruption.
MR LAX: So you've said yes, that was the instruction, to eliminate the cell?
MR LAX: Does that mean to kill all the members of the cell?
MR RADEBE: Yes, because all those people were, all the members of that ...(end of side A of tape)
MR LAX: And not one of them appeared in a court where you were required to testify as to what they were involved in?
MR LAX: What happened to them, if you didn't testify as to ...?
MR RADEBE: Chairperson, during that time you would not enquire anything to white members as to whether what happened to a particular person.
MR LAX: ... whether you asked the white members what happened. You saw many things happen in your time while you were working with Vlakplaas and other units, what usually happened to such people who never appeared in a court where you were required to testify?
MR LAX: ...(indistinct) the real purpose of this operation to kill everybody including Ms Kubheka?
MR RADEBE: I don't want to commit myself to the fate of Ms Kubheka, because she was not abducted directly, or the lawyer would be informed, because she went from her house on her own.
MR LAX: ...(indistinct) she part of this cell, wasn't she the organiser of this cell?
MR RADEBE: She was, Chairperson.
MR LAX: ...(indistinct) she suffered the same fate as the other members of the cell, not so?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: You said with regard to the clothing that the clothes you saw were too small to fit her.
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: Were they the same colour as the clothing she was wearing?
MR RADEBE: I don't remember the colours, Chairperson, but I saw the clothes that they were of a smaller size. I don't remember the clothes that she wore when last I saw her.
MR LAX: So you can't even be sure actually, if those were the same clothes or not?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you describe how - sorry Mr Lax, how she was dressed when you picked her up at either Kentucky or the station? Forget about the colours, but how was she dressed?
MR RADEBE: I don't remember how she was dressed.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) even remember whether she was wearing a dress or slax or what? You've got no recollection at all?
MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson, I don't remember.
CHAIRPERSON: So what was the size of this dress that you were shown now recently?
MR RADEBE: I saw it put in a plastic, then I saw that it's a small dress.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) take it out the plastic.
MR RADEBE: Jimmy's lawyer took it out of the plastic.
CHAIRPERSON: And what colour was it?
MR RADEBE: I don't see it well, I saw a black colour. I didn't see the colour well of the dress, but I saw it, it was like black.
CHAIRPERSON: Why didn't you see the colour well?
MR RADEBE: Chairperson, it was on the floor at the corner next to the box there, the corner, so it was a little bit darkish.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct) just in a pile or was it laid out?
MR RADEBE: It was lying on the floor, it was put on the floor.
CHAIRPERSON: And was it plain? Was it plain or did it have a pattern?
MR RADEBE: I did not see it well, Chairperson, but I just observed that it is not the size which can fit Ms Kubheka.
MR LAX: It seems to me you hardly even look at this dress, because you looked at it yesterday and you can't even remember the colour.
MR RADEBE: I forgot my spectacles at home. I even stated on my applications that the sickness which I suffer affected my eyesight. So I forgot my spectacles at home.
MR LAX: ...(indistinct) spectacles don't give you colour, you can see the colour of this light. Here in front of me, is it red?
MR RADEBE: I'm able to see a particular colour through my spectacles.
MR LAX: ...(indistinct) tablecloth?
MR RADEBE: It has a green colour and a white colour
MR LAX: ...(indistinct) tablecloth and your table, right there where your hand is?
MR RADEBE: It's in white colour.
MR LAX: ...(indistinct) this side. It's blue.
MR LAX: Well you haven't got your glasses on now.
MR RADEBE: Chairperson, yesterday's dress was on the floor and then on the floor it's a little bit dark, you're not able to see it clearly. That's what I'm saying, that I would not be able to identify the colour of that cloth, but it was in a darkish colour.
MR LAX: You see, we're going to need to rely on your evidence to say whether it might have fitted Kubheka or not, amongst other things, and yet you looked at it yesterday and you can't even tell us what colour it was, how are we supposed to rely on that?
MR RADEBE: Because I'm saying that because they were on the floor and then I saw them that they were not well ironed and they were in a darkish colour, you'll not be able to see a red or black colour in a darkish area. So because we have light today, it's visible, I'll be able to identify the colour.
MR LAX: Now you said in your evidence-in-chief, it was suggested to you that almost the whole of Vlakplaas was down here.
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: What were the rest of them doing?
MR RADEBE: They were going to railway stations, taxi ranks inside town.
MR LAX: ...(indistinct) identify members of MK?
MR RADEBE: Yes, Chairperson, askaris were trying to identify PAC and ANC members.
MR LAX: How many members of this cell did you hand over to Hentie Botha and his men?
MR RADEBE: Two members Chairperson, if I remember well.
CHAIRPERSON: Including or plus? Two members including Ms Kubheka, or two members and also Ms Kubheka, making it three? What is it?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson, including Ms Kubheka.
MR LAX: Was it three in total?
MR RADEBE: I remember Ms Kubheka and the one we dropped at KwaMashu. That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: You told us that you were anxious to get back to your quarters because you hadn't washed or changed your clothes for several days, how long was that?
MR RADEBE: Approximately a week plus days, or two weeks.
MR LAX: So between one and two weeks?
MR RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: And what were you doing that was so important that you couldn't go back to your quarters and change or wash?
MR RADEBE: Because we were afraid that one person may see us entering CR Swart. If you were delegated for an operation they would try by all means that these other people would not meet with you or meet with your colleagues or your colleagues meet you before the operation has been accomplished.
MR LAX: So where did you stay for that week to two weeks?
MR RADEBE: At Winkelspruit, in the kombi.
MR LAX: Well why did deny that when Mr Samuel put that to you? Why did you insist so vehemently that no, you stayed at CR Swart Square?
MR RADEBE: I only disputed that aspect of after the operation, that we - I was disputing that when he said we left after the operation.
It just doesn't seem to make any sense to me, Mr Radebe, now you're on an operation, the nature of which entails that you should not be seen entering into CR Swart in case your cover would be blown, yet all your clothes and toiletries are at CR Swart and you're going to spend now one to two weeks at Winkelspruit, why not take your toiletries and clothes to Winkelspruit, why have then in a place that's inaccessible and you've got to go around smelling and dirty?
MR RADEBE: Chairperson, at times it happens that after two or three days the operation would be completed.
MR LAX: What exactly were you doing for that ten days?
MR RADEBE: We would go to KwaMashu, return, trying to gather information about Lusaka.
MR LAX: So you'd return to Winkelspruit?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: What vehicle did you use on all these occasions?
MR LAX: You never used the Corolla?
MR RADEBE: I don't remember using a Corolla, I was driving a kombi at all occasions.
MR LAX: Mr Botha says he saw you arrive there in a Corolla, with Kubheka. At Battery Beach.
MR RADEBE: I said Chairperson, that I remember about the kombi. I knew about the kombi, but I don't remember me driving a kombi.
MR LAX: You remember the Corolla though, there was a Corolla that was part your operations, that was used from time to time.
MR RADEBE: We were not using that Corolla, it was parked at Winkelspruit.
MR LAX: So it was present at Winkelspruit?
MR RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: Now when you got to Winkelspruit, who was waiting there for you? On your average day, because this thing happened over a period of one to two weeks. Did you arrange that there would be a certain time for reporting or ... how would you make contact with people so someone would know you would be coming back to Winkelspruit to report? Was there a permanent presence there?
MR RADEBE: Yes, other whites were staying there.
MR LAX: Well who was staying there?
MR RADEBE: I remember Botha, McCarthy(?), Joe Coetzer and other Durban members whom I did not know there names or their surnames.
MR LAX: Were they all staying there, sleeping there at night?
MR RADEBE: Yes, when we went back to sleep in the kombi, we would find them and their cars there.
MR LAX: And so when you got your instructions you got your instructions there?
MR RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: You see you told us earlier you got your instructions at CR Swart Square, not at Winkelspruit. Was that a mistake?
MR RADEBE: Chairperson, initially I received my instructions at CR Swart. Maybe you did not understand me well. When we started with the operation I received instructions from CR Swart, from Ras, then from there he was not involved in the operation.
MR LAX: And later on you got your instructions to go and collect her from CR Swart, you said. This is the first time now you're conceding that you got your instructions at Winkelspruit, because up until now you've given us the impression that you never went to Winkelspruit, except on the day, that you were sleeping at CR Swart Square and that you'd been in and out of the offices there. That was the impression you created. Now is the first time you're conceding that that is different.
MR RADEBE: Chairperson, maybe we did not understand one another the way I wanted to put it, maybe that is the point where we differ.
CHAIRPERSON: Advocate Bosman, do you have any questions you'd like to put to Mr Radebe?
ADV BOSMAN: Yes, thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Radebe, I'd like you just to clarify one or two points for me. On the first day that you met Ms Kubheka, if I have it correctly you said on that day you allowed Mr Mbane to drive the vehicle because you had had too much to drink, is that correct?
MR RADEBE: I said, Chairperson, I and Mbane were drunk and Dube was the one who was driving.
ADV BOSMAN: Did Mr Dube have a licence?
MR RADEBE: He did not have a driver's licence.
ADV BOSMAN: From where to where did he drive?
MR RADEBE: He drove from KwaMashu to Durban station.
ADV BOSMAN: But wasn't that very dangerous, to allow him to drive in the congested traffic as you put it?
MR RADEBE: It was dangerous, Chairperson, but because we were drunk you would not be afraid of anything, but I considered it was dangerous. That is why we were afraid that we should go to Winkelspruit, because white members would observe that we were drunk, that's why we slept at the station so that I will be sober again and drive back to Winkelspruit.
ADV BOSMAN: So was it fairly general for you to have drinks during the time that you were here in Durban?
MR RADEBE: Yes, Chairperson, it will depend on the situation.
ADV BOSMAN: And on the night that went to Winkelspruit the night of the incident, had you had drinks?
ADV BOSMAN: Then, was it sort of general routine that instructions to Mr Mbane and Mr Dube would be given through you? Would their instructions always come through you, or would someone like say Mr Ras or Mr Botha give instructions directly to Mr Mbane?
MR RADEBE: He was supposed to do that, he was supposed to relay the instructions to the two people through me, but at times he would give them instructions directly.
ADV BOSMAN: Are you referring to Mr Ras when you say "he"?
MR RADEBE: Ras was giving me instructions directly, but even white members to places where we went, they were supposed to give me instructions first, then I would relay the instructions to the askaris, because we would have a dispute if they give askaris instructions directly without relaying them to me first.
ADV BOSMAN: If Mr Mbane says that he was instructed to go to Ms Kubheka's house after she had been killed, are you surprised to hear that? Because you said you never gave such an instruction.
MR RADEBE: I would not be surprised, Chairperson.
ADV BOSMAN: So it's possible that he had been given such an instruction?
MR RADEBE: It is possible, Chairperson.
ADV BOSMAN: When did you return to Vlakplaas, how soon after the incident?
MR RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson, but we returned back. I don't remember when.
ADV BOSMAN: Was it a matter of days or weeks or hours? Can you give any sort of general indication, without being too specific?
MR RADEBE: If we were to go to a particular place we would stay there for there weeks and then on the fourth day we'd go back, and then if some of us were involved in a particular operation, others would go after three weeks, then we will stay behind.
ADV BOSMAN: What I'm actually getting at is, how did it come that you returned? Who told you that it was now time for you to return to Vlakplaas? Was it Mr Ras, or did Mr de Kock let you know you must now come back to Vlakplaas? Why did you go back?
MR RADEBE: I don't remember as to whether it's Joe Coetzer or McCarter who instructed us that we should go back to Vlakplaas.
ADV BOSMAN: Now what was the situation in regard to this cell at the time? Was the cell by now more-or-less dysfunctional, had it been destroyed? When you went back.
MR LAX: Sorry, I was saying you guys are talking and we can pick it up on ... we can pick up you talking, the two of you, sorry.
MR RADEBE: The cell was destroyed when we returned that.
ADV BOSMAN: Who told you that, how did you know that?
MR RADEBE: Joe Coetzer or Frank McCarter, one of them told us that.
ADV BOSMAN: And had your job now been done?
MR RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson.
ADV BOSMAN: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Just very briefly Mr Radebe, during this operation, the one involving Ms Kubheka, were any of you, that is yourself, Dube or Mbane, armed with AK47s?
MR RADEBE: I remember Mbane or Dube had Makarov pistols, but I don't remember well about the AK47.
CHAIRPERSON: Was there ever any instruction that any AK47 be handed over to anybody at all?
MR RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson, to create a sign of confidence, that we are comrades and then assert our story, so the overseas made firearms were always present.
CHAIRPERSON: So are you saying that AK47s were handed over to either Ms Kubheka or any other member of the cell?
MR RADEBE: So that she would believe that we're from exile and then again we're members of PAC or ANC.
CHAIRPERSON: Was an AK47 shown?
MR RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson, but I remember someone giving me one AK47 and one Makarov pistol, to hide them in my car.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Hugo, any questions arising out of questions that have been put by the Members of the Panel?
MR HUGO: No, except Mr Chairman, from a procedural point of view I was just wondering, as you know he suffers from this medical problem and I was going to ask you to allow him to go back to Pretoria after his evidence, but I'm not sure as to whether the victims' legal representatives intend introducing this dress formally as an exhibit. If that were to be the case, surely it should be done now so that if he wants to comment on it, then it should be done at this point in time. I don't want to be prescriptive, I was just wondering whether ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, but I think whether or not the victims - I think we would like as a Panel to see the dress, so I think whether or not Mr Wills intends to do it or not, it's up to him, but we can show it to the witness now.
MR WILLS: Mr Chairperson, this exhibit has never been in the custody of the family of the deceased, it's always been an exhibit held by the TRC and it was anticipated that the TRC representative would introduce it.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills.
MR WILLS: I have no objection to it being introduced now.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think perhaps we should have it brought now Mr Hugo and then after your client has testified, he'll be given permission to go back to Pretoria, but on the proviso that if his presence is required, he'd be on standby to come back on short notice.
CHAIRPERSON: But before we show the dress, any other questions arising out of questions put by Members of the Panel? Mr Visser?
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Chairperson, if you will bear me an indulgence, there are a few matters that arise which have not been covered. The one thing Chairperson, that I thought my learned friend Mr Samuel would take up, was the issue of the AK47s which you've now done, but there's another issue that remains. If I may just put that to Mr Radebe.
It was put on behalf of Mr Mbane, and I think I read it somewhere, that Mr Mbane says that at the house of Ms Kubheka, she showed him weapons, and as I understand your statement, and please stop me if I'm wrong, you seem to suggest that that didn't happen. Do you know what I'm talking about Mr Radebe?
MR VISSER: If Mr Mbane says that Ms Kubheka showed him weapons at her house, would that be right or would that be wrong, as far as you're concerned?
MR SAMUEL: ...(indistinct) where are we looking at, that Ms Kubheka showed Mr Mbane weapons?
CHAIRPERSON: I'm just trying to find it myself. Is this in the ...(intervention)
MR SAMUEL: Isn't it the other way around?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I may have phrased it incorrectly. It's at page 130 of volume 2, paragraph 42 - there's another passage Chairperson, let me just find it.
MR HUGO: Could I try and be of assistance, Mr Chairman, I think Mr Visser refers to the paragraphs, page 128, it's Mr Mbane's statement where he says
"I gave Ntombi a bag of AK47s to keep for me."
MR VISSER: No, no, it's not that one, Chairperson.
MR HUGO: It's not that. Sorry, I was trying.
MR VISSER: But thank you for the assistance.
No Mr Chairman, I may be reminded of Botha's evidence to say that Mbane related to him that she showed them weapons.
CHAIRPERSON: Just put the question now and it can be verified later from the evidence.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman, I'm sorry that I haven't got my finger on the pulse right at the moment.
If Mr Mbane says that Ms Kubheka showed him weapons which she had in her house, would you know anything about that?
MR SAMUEL: Mr Chairman, if I may come in. Wouldn't that question be misleading, because that's not the evidence we are going to tender. How can you make a suggestion that has no basis.
MR VISSER: Well Chairperson, it's ten to one, I'll get the evidence and I will read it to you after lunch.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, yes, alright.
MR VISSER: May I go on with something else, Mr Chairman?
Did I hear you say that it was the intention for Ms Kubheka to be killed, to be eliminated? Is that what you're saying now? That was the intention of the operation.
MR RADEBE: I did not say that, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: I thought I heard you say that. Now you say you also handed over one other person to Mr Botha, I take it you're referring to an MK person, is that correct?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: In your statement - sorry, in your amnesty application I seem to recall that you said one or two other people. Let me just see whether I'm right this time for a change.
MR VISSER: Yes, thank you, paragraph 49.
MR VISSER: I'm just reading to you what you seem to have stated in your statement at page 118 of volume 1, and it says there
"Afterwards we returned to the house upon an occasion and one or two so-called comrades who arrived there were also taken away from there on the same basis and delivered to Hentie Botha."
Now first of all let me just explain to you that in paragraph 48 you talk about a person that was handed over at the highway and it, my first question I want to ask you, you did give evidence to say that that was a man, but I want to put to you that paragraph 48 doesn't make that clear. It says:
"Ons het reeds voordat ons by die vrou se huis aangekom het, geskakel met Botha", we said that we were going to pick up a person and that we would then bring the person to them."
I want to make absolutely certain from you Mr Radebe, are you referring her to Ms Kubheka, or are you referring to some other person?
MR RADEBE: I speak of another person.
MR VISSER: Another person, not Ms Kubheka?
MR LAX: Sorry, if you read the other paragraph before that, you'll see they're talking about a person coming from Zambia and that they knew about that person and he testified about that.
CHAIRPERSON: And then if you read paragraph 50, the reading of that is that subsequent to that the lady became suspicious, etcetera.
MR VISSER: Just from the interest of making absolutely certain what the evidence is, I thought I must just clarify this, Chairperson.
And then you go on to say that "one or two other people." So it's that person that you handed over at the highway and one or two other comrades were also handed over, is that correct?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think it's quite clear from what it says here. Do you just want to confirm it?
MR VISSER: Well Chairperson ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: You see what it says here is, in paragraph 48, "We got this person at the highway and indeed handed him over to Hentie Botha." Then it says "Ons het daarna", thereafter, one or two other people were handed over to Botha.
MR VISSER: But Chairperson, you see what the point of the question is, Mr Lax asked this witness exactly "How many people did you hand over?" And he said "One."
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, no, I'm not stopping you but I'm just saying it's clear from what is written here that there's more than one.
MR VISSER: That's what I'm putting to him.
CHAIRPERSON: But ask him whether this is correct or what it means.
MR LAX: That was precisely why I asked those questions in the light of this statement.
I just want to ask you now, Mr Radebe, you've heard what I've said. In paragraph 48 you say after the one that was handed over a the freeway, or at the highway, you handed over one or two others, other comrades to Mr Hentie Botha, is that correct or is that wrong?
MR RADEBE: I was speaking about two comrades including Ms Makhubela.
INTERPRETER: Ms Kubheka, sorry.
MR VISSER: So Ms Kubheka and one other comrade, is that all that you have knowledge of that were handed to Mr Botha, is that what you're saying?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Can you remember the name of the comrade?
MR LAX: Can I just interpose, Mr Visser?
MR LAX: Why does that then appear in your affidavit here, because these are two others in addition to Kubheka and in addition to the man at the highway at KwaMashu? On this affidavit it would be three or four people, not two people. These are two entirely different people. Maybe you haven't understood the question. Perhaps you should read your affidavit at page 118.
Let me explain it to you, it's easier than reading it to you, because it's already been read to you. The portion that Mr Visser read to you is taken from your affidavit, which is in the papers at page 118 and others. What it says is that after you handed the man to Botha at the KwaMashu highway bridge, in addition to that, in addition to Kubheka who you deal with later in your affidavit, you understand, there are one or two other people who you also handed over to Botha, in a similar manner to the man at the bridge at KwaMashu. That's what your affidavit says. Now what I want to know from you is, why do you refer to one or two other people in addition to the two we've already spoken about?
MR RADEBE: Chairperson, I wanted to mention about the first comrade whom we took to Mr Botha at the highway, then the other one, therefore I was speaking about three people.
MR LAX: ...(indistinct) one or other so-called comrades.
MR RADEBE: I don't remember as to whether I was speaking about Gipsman and the other one and Ms Kubheka and the one at the highway, so those are three people.
MR LAX: ...(indistinct) Gipsman separately from all of them. Is it just that you've forgotten about these other people, or person or persons?
MR RADEBE: It is possible, Chairperson.
MR LAX: You see you made this affidavit on the 5th of May 1997, was your memory fresher then?
MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson, I had already started with my memory problem at that stage.
ADV BOSMAN: ...(indistinct) may I just have this clarified.
Mr Radebe, I asked you whether the whole cell had been destroyed and your answer was yes, how big was this cell, how many people were in this cell?
MR RADEBE: It was that person whom I delivered at the highway and then the other person who requested to be taken to Transkei to fetch firearms. I did not include him because I did not remember about that correctly. There was another person we were supposed to take him to Transkei to fetch arms there. I don't know what happened to him.
ADV BOSMAN: ...(indistinct) of the cell, as far as you knew?
MR RADEBE: They were not staying at Ms Kubheka's house, they would visit. We would call it a KwaMashu cell. So they would visit Kubheka's house, so they were not staying there.
ADV BOSMAN: ...(indistinct) staying at Ms Kubheka's house. I just wanted to know, you said the cell had been wiped out and I just wanted to know how many members there were in the cell, as far as you knew.
MR RADEBE: I remember the one we delivered at KwaMashu and Jimmy informed me about the other one who we were supposed to transport to Transkei to fetch arms there. I did not see that one.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, may I ask one last question in order just, while it's fresh in our memory, to try and sort this out?
Were you ever told during the time that four MK people who were going to infiltrate or who had already infiltrated to Natal, were the ones that the Security Branch were looking for?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: We know of Gipsman, now Gipsman, was he one of those four or was he somebody else?
MR RADEBE: I don't remember as to whether he was one of them, but we took him to Winkelspruit and I did not see him again.
MR VISSER: At page 1720 of the record it was put on behalf of Mr Mbane that you in fact also arrested a person called Sbu, S-b-u - it's two-thirds down the page, Chairperson. Now do you remember a person by the name of Sbu?
MR RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: If he was one of the group, then we might have two now, Gipsman and Sbu and a third person was the one who wanted to fetch weapons from the Transkei, is that correct? Or was it one of the same as Sbu or Gipsman, that wanted to fetch weapons from the Transkei?
MR SAMUEL: If I may interpose just to bring some clarity, the person we were referring to, Sbu, was the person that was going to pick up the arms from the Transkei.
MR VISSER: Alright, well thank you for that. So we know of two people then, it might be Gipsman and it was definitely Sbu. For whatever that may help to clarify, that's the best I can do, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, I don't think we need too much detail on this, we're not going to be making findings on who was arrested or whatever.
MR VISSER: Can we go on after lunch, Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I see that it is now after 1 o'clock. Mr Thabethe, would it be possible during the lunch break, to make sure that the dress is available. Is it here? Thank you. We'll take the lunch adjournment now.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes thank you. Mr Visser, do you have any further questions arising?
MR VISSER: Yes, Chairperson. I've found the references which I wanted to refer to before the adjournment.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, it works as follows. Hentie Botha gave evidence to say that he received information from Jimmy Mbane that Ms Kubheka had shown him weapons at her house. Now that you fill find at page 1660 of the record, at the top, which says
"And she also showed weaponry to one or more of the group, and this was weaponry that she stored on behalf of the terrorists."
Why I asked Mr Radebe this question, Chairperson, was that Mr Radebe appears to deny that that was so, and I'll give you that reference. It's at - well the pages aren't number, it's in Exhibit G, and you will find it just above paragraph 17, the last sentence of paragraph 16.
"I have no memory of her showing us any weapons."
MR VISSER: I want to ask him whether this means that he's in conflict with the evidence which Botha gave.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, please go ahead.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
"Hentie Botha het getuig, Mr Radebe, dat hy gehoor het ..." ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry Mr Visser, do you mind asking in English, because of the difficulties they have with the three-way translation.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: (cont)
Mr Radebe, Mr Hentie Botha testified that he was told that Ms Kubheka had shown one or more of your group weapons which ...(end of side B of tape)
MR VISSER: And is that what you are referring to him your statement in paragraph 16? Is that what you say you have no knowledge of?
MR RADEBE: Correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Now is it possible that it could have happened without you knowing about that?
MR RADEBE: It is possible, Chairman.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson. I'm sorry, there was just one more aspect, Chairperson.
I want to put to you that the person that you refer to as Gipsman was in fact an informer of Mr Botha, can you deny that?
MR RADEBE: I would not dispute that, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And as quite correctly pointed out by Mr Samuel, Sbu was the person who wanted you to take him to go to Swaziland to fetch weapons.
MR VISSER: The Transkei, to fetch weapons. I beg your pardon. Would that accord with what you remember?
MR RADEBE: I would not dispute that Chairperson, because Gipsman, I did not know his real name. Even now I still know him as Gipsman. I don't want to commit myself.
CHAIRPERSON: And the other part of Mr Visser's question, would you deny that Sbu was the person who wanted you to take him to Transkei to fetch weapons?
MR RADEBE: I would not deny that because they did not tell me anything.
MR VISSER: ...(indistinct) Chairperson, just for the sake of your information, the unchallenged evidence of Botha about Gipsman, is at 1701.
MR VISSER: Yes. I have no further questions, thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Any other questions arising out of questions put by the Panel? Thank you.
I see before us laid out on the floor, a dress. Mr Radebe, is that the dress, or do you know whether that is the dress that was shown to you yesterday? The one that we referred to when you were being asked questions?
MR RADEBE: That is correct, Chairperson, that's the colour of the dress I saw yesterday.
CHAIRPERSON: Just for record, we have a dress laid out in front of us that is a dark maroon colour and it has a pattern on it, it looks like roses in a type of a beige colour, at the bottom of the dress or midway down the dress and a little bit at the top of the dress. It's a short-sleeved dress. Perhaps I should get a female to describe it because I'm not so good at describing dresses. What else do you need? Short sleeves. It's got a high colour. I don't know if it has a label on it or not, I can't see from here and I would like to hazard a guess as to what the size of it is, because I don't know how the sizes go.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, there is a description, if I may be so bold as to interrupt you, at page 25 of bundle 2, by Dr Aiyer, which seems to be a reasonably accurate description if you fall short of descriptive words of the dress.
"A short-sleeved burgundy dress, showing large white and red flower print along the lower portion and fine pale red and white oblique stripes across the upper front and rear."
"With a thin fabric belt around the waist through loops and showing a label 'Swing Set' and a button with a loop at the rear of the neck."
I don't know whether you found the passage.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I have it. That seems to be a very accurate description, do you people agree?
MR VISSER: It's actually Dr Naidoo. Did I say, Aiyer, it's Dr Naidoo.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, thank you Mr Visser.
MR VISSER: And my learned friend, Mr Wills, has just pointed out that there is a size on that dress. I haven't checked it myself, but apparently it's 42.
MR WILLS: I didn't say there was a size on the dress, I said that the dress size is a 44.
CHAIRPERSON: Is that from your personal knowledge of dress sizes, or is it indicated on the fabric Mr Wills?
MR WILLS: We hope to lead evidence to that effect, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: It's not on the label or anything like that?
MR WILLS: Not to my knowledge.
MR VISSER: I also understood throughout that there wasn't a size on the dress, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes. Are there any questions anybody would like to put to Mr Radebe relating to the dress? Mr Hugo? Let me start off with Mr Hugo.
MS THABETHE: Sorry, Mr Chair, sorry to interrupt. There is also a polo-neck and underwear. I don't know whether I should...
MR VISSER: Chairperson, we specifically asked for those items of clothing to be brought down, Chairperson, and we believe it is important for you to see all the clothing.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I just don't know if Mr Radebe can say anything about them, but they may as well just be put before us now.
Ms Thabethe has just laid on the floor a polo-neck long-sleeved shirt, varying shades of brown in colour. There also seems to be - what would that be called, a slip? A brown type petticoat slip, same colour as the polo-neck vest or shirt and then there's a bra, also brown in colour and in bad repair. Thank you, Ms Thabethe.
Mr Hugo, are there any questions you'd like to put to your client concerning the exhibits? I think before you start, we'll call the - the dress will be Exhibit 1. Exhibit 1 will be the dress. Exhibit 2 will be the polo-neck. I don't know whether it's a shirt or a vest, polo-neck shirt or undergarment, I'm not sure what exactly it is. Exhibit 3 will be the, call it a slip, petticoat, and Exhibit 4 will be the bra.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman, just two questions.
Mr Radebe, this incident happened thirteen years ago, can you remember what the dresses or dress looked like that Ms Kubheka was wearing when you saw her for the first time?
MR RADEBE: No, Chairperson, I would not.
MR HUGO: Can you remember whether she was wearing a dress or whether she was wearing slax, can you narrow it down to that, or can't you even remember that?
MR RADEBE: I don't remember, Chairperson.
MR HUGO: And then just finally, you testified today that your assessment was that this particular dress, Exhibit 1, your assessment was that this dress would not have fitted Ms Kubheka, why did you testify to that effect?
MR RADEBE: Because the way I observed it yesterday it was folded, but it was not the same as it appears today, do today I see it clearly.
MR HUGO: Yes, and what conclusion are reaching today? Are you saying that it would in fact have fitted her??
MR RADEBE: Yes, because I see it on the light. As I've explained to the Chairperson before lunch, that I saw it in a, it was dark when it was shown to me and it was a little bit folded, so today when I see it with the light and being unfolded, it can fit her.
MR HUGO: No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you wish to put any questions to Mr Radebe concerning the exhibits that are before us?
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Just one question, Chairperson.
Mr Radebe, when you look at that slip, would you say that is the slip worn by a large woman or a medium sized woman? That is Exhibit 3.
CHAIRPERSON: That is the one on the other side, the brown one, not the shirt, the little dress or slip.
MR VISSER: By a tiny person. Thank you, Chairperson.
And what about the jersey, Exhibit 2?
CHAIRPERSON: The polo-neck, the brown one there Mr Radebe, the one polo-neck shirt.
MR RADEBE: The jersey has the tendency to rise, so it - to stretch.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nel, any questions? Mr van der Merwe, any questions? Mr Wills, any questions? Mr Samuel, any questions? Ms Thabethe, any questions?
MS THABETHE: No questions, Mr Chair, but I was just thinking that shouldn't we tailor maybe to measure the dress and find out what size it is?
CHAIRPERSON: We can do that if that can be arranged, somebody can try to determine the size of the dress. If we can make arrangements for that, it would be helpful and then would then obviate the necessity for other evidence in that regard.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I know I'm talking a lot, but just an attempt to be of assistance, might we ask through the Chair, whether there are any of Ms Kubheka's clothes still remaining, so that we can simply compare the dresses that she used to wear, to this dress. That may be a way of perhaps cutting out further evidence.
MR WILLS: I will investigate that, thank you.
Mr Radebe, thank you, that concludes your testimony. Mr Hugo has indicated that you would now want to go back to Pretoria because of the state of your health, and we'll excuse you from further attendance, but please, it will be on the basis that if your attendance is required again, you could be recalled at short notice. It doesn't seem likely that that will happen, but if you could be on standby as it were, until this hearing is finished. Thank you.
MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there any further evidence you intend leading, Mr Hugo?
MR HUGO: No, thank you Mr Chairman, that is the evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: As far as we're concerned there's one further applicant to testify and that is Mr Roeloff Brand Visagie.
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, we were told in chambers yesterday by Mr Wills, that he had information that Mr Visagie was in the country, my attorney once again made enquiries and he's been assured that Mr Visagie is not in the country. So unless Mr Wills knows something that we don't, that's the state of the situation at this stage.
Mr Chairman, while we're on this point, may I refer you to the record where we have dealt with this before at the inception of these hearings. I refer you with respect, to page 1647 of the record and Chairperson, what we said there is, Mr Visagie is an applicant, he is not available and that he was at that stage in the United States. At this stage we don't know where he is, all that we ...(indistinct) know is he's not in South Africa. We said at the bottom of that page:
"Mr Chairman, in view of the fact that on his own application, he did not commit any offence which can be stated to be a human rights violation, a gross human rights violation. We would apply to you, Mr Chairman, that you consider his application in terms of Section 19(3)(b)(iii), which gives you the authority where there is no gross human rights violation, to dispose of such an application in chambers."
and then Mr Chairman, you ruled that your Committee was in agreement with the suggestion, but that you thought it would be ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Worthwhile to keep it on the roll.
MR VISSER: Correct, it would be better to keep it on the roll in case something happened in the meantime. That is the point which we've reached at this stage, Chairperson. You have his application before you, in which he says he doesn't know anything about any torture or any gross violation of human rights, he was just told later that she had died. And if you look at what he applies for, he simply applies for his part in the abduction and for defeating the ends of justice. So I'm not asking on his behalf for any gross violation of human rights.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, except that ...(indistinct) might have made a mistake on page 1647, because by virtue of the definition of gross human rights violations in the Act, it includes an abduction and an attempt or a conspiracy thereto.
MR VISSER: I'm sorry, I'm pleased that, Mr Chairman, that you remind me thereof, because I've made this mistake before. In fact Visagie does not ask for abduction, he asks only for defeating the ends of justice.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes I think if we could at this stage, could we please remove the exhibits.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, we are going to ask you to recall Wasserman and du Preez, who are the two witnesses that I have here in Durban, to come and give their opinions as to ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: Right now, on these dresses.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we'll do that and then we can remove them.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wills, you were about to say something.
MR WILLS: Yes, thank you. Mr Chairperson, obviously we'd like the opportunity to address you on that position, and it is my instructions to oppose that, but we will address you on that basis.
CHAIRPERSON: The fact is that Mr Visagie is not here now, so he will not be testifying now. So we'll just leave the question of Mr Visagie open, which can be dealt with at a later stage, Mr Wills, and you can make any submissions you wish to in that regard.
MR WILLS: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser has just indicated that some of the applicants are going to be recalled, just in connection with the exhibits that are before us now. Is there any objection to that? I can't see any objection, in fact it would be helpful.
MR VISSER: Well I would motivate it thus, Chairperson, that we've been asking for these exhibits and we haven't had it.
CHAIRPERSON: I think you can call them.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson. I will call Mr Wasserman first.
RECALL OF LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN
CHAIRPERSON: Lawrence Gerald Wasserman. Is that correct Mr Wasserman?
LAWRENCE GERALD WASSERMAN: (sworn states)
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Mr Wasserman, you had given evidence before in relation to this incident, is that correct?
MR WASSERMAN: That's correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: At the time we did not have at our disposal certain articles of clothing which is suggested or alleged, came out of a certain grave number 343, at the Charlotte Cemetery, we now have those items in front of us, will you please have a look at it. You were here when they were set out and identified by way of exhibit numbers.
MR WASSERMAN: Correct, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: The dress is Exhibit 1, the polo-neck is Exhibit 2, the slip is Exhibit 3 and then there's a bra. Having a look at these items of clothing, would you as you remember Ms Kubheka's stature, would you describe these articles of clothing as clothing that would have fitted and been worn by Ms Kubheka, as you recall her stature?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, from what I can see from here, all items, all exhibits to me appear too small for Ms Kubheka.
MR VISSER: Just give us a description in your own words as to how you recall the size of Ms Kubheka.
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I recall her to the best of my knowledge, of being shortish, plump, rather plump.
MR VISSER: Could you hazard a guess as to the weight - you were the one who actually got hold of her and took her to the white kombi at Battery Beach, if I remember your evidence correctly?
MR WASSERMAN: I'm not sure of that.
MR VISSER: You transported the corpse of Ms Kubheka and assisted Mr du Preez in placing it alongside the road to Inanda, is that correct?
MR WASSERMAN: That is correct yes, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: Did in the process have to carry her?
MR WASSERMAN: I did, Mr Chairman.
MR VISSER: What would you, if you - can you hazard a guess as to her approximate weight at the time?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I would guess in the range of 100 kilos.
MR VISSER: 100 kilos. Thank you.
My attorney wants to just check the length of that belt, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Do you want the length of the belt?
MR VISSER: Can't we measure it later, Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, we can measure it later, if we can arrange a taylor to take a look, one of the things he can measure is the length of the belt.
MR VISSER: Yes, thank you Chairperson.
In your opinion, generally, how would you have described her? You said a plump woman, would you describe as a medium built woman, a considerably short woman, or how would you describe Ms Kubheka as you recall her?
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, she was short, strong boned, strong, she was a strong lady Mr Chairman, well built.
MR VISSER: If the suggestion is made - well, what would you guess her length to have been, compared to your own length for example?
MR WASSERMAN: Well Mr Chairman, I'm 6'4", she was much shorter than I am, I would say a foot shorter, maybe more.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Hugo, do you have any questions you would like to put to Mr Wasserman?
MR HUGO: I have no questions, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?
MR VAN DER MERWE: No questions, thank you Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: Yes, thank you, Mr Chairperson.
Mr Wasserman, when I was asking you about the clothing, and I'm referring to the record at page 1944, you seem to agree that in your memory she was wearing a dress because her legs were bare, is that right?
MR WILLS: Well you don't have to refer to the record, I'm testing your memory, Mr Wasserman.
MR WASSERMAN: Where are we referring to Mr Chairman, please?
MR WILLS: Sorry, it's 1942. The implication starts at 1942 at the bottom. I say to you
"Now what was the position of her clothing? Were her legs covered or were they bare?
Mr Chairman, I think her legs were bare.
So the prospects are that she was wearing a dress as opposed to long trousers?
No, I believe she was in a dress, Mr Chairman."
MR WILLS: So that is your memory, that she was wearing a dress?
MR WILLS: And then you say when I continue, you've got a lightish colour in your mind's eye. Now would you describe this sweater, this polo-neck, Exhibit 2, I know it's been discoloured, but it seems to me that it is a lightish colour. I'm referring to the second paragraph in page 143(?).
MR WASSERMAN: The second paragraph?
MR WILLS: Ja, your second answer
MR WASSERMAN: Mr Chairman, I don't recall anything specifically. In my mind's eye, I believe it was probably light in colour, lightish in my mind's eye. I've got lightish, but I'm not certain on that."
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, I see that.
MR WILLS: So now would you agree that this polo-neck sweater is light in colour?
CHAIRPERSON: And the slip, Exhibit 3, they're the same colour in fact, as each other.
MR WASSERMAN: Yes, from what I can see here it appears so, yes.
MR WILLS: Now I was just a little bit concerned about your answer to Mr Visser's first question when he referred you to your presence at Bantry Beach, you said you weren't sure of that, but the evidence is clear that you weren't at Bantry Beach ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Isn't it called Battery?
MR WILLS: Battery Beach. I'm sorry.
MR WILLS: So it's not a case of you not being sure, you were never there?
MR WASSERMAN: I was not there.
MR WILLS: Sorry, that's all, thank you Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Samuel, do you have any questions?
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions you'd like to ask Mr Wasserman about the clothes?
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS THABETHE: Just one, Mr Chair.
Mr Wasserman, would you remember the clothing that Ms Kubheka was wearing, from looking at this dress?
MR WASSERMAN: No, not specifically at all.
MS THABETHE: Okay. Thank you, Mr Chair.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS THABETHE
MR WILLS: Sorry Mr Chairperson, there's just one thing I omitted.
CHAIRPERSON: Certainly, Mr Wills.
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: How tall do you think - I mean, how heavy do you think I am, Mr Wasserman? Do you want me to stand up?
MR WASSERMAN: Yes please. Could you take your jacket off, Sir.
MR WILLS: Are you able to guesstimate?
CHAIRPERSON: Are you guessing the height or the weight?
CHAIRPERSON: 80 or 90 is quite a big difference. What would you say?
MR WILLS: Well I can tell you you're 20kgs out if you say 80 and you're 10kgs out if you say 90. So the bottom line is that you're not able to estimate weight, are you?
CHAIRPERSON: And you're not 70, so you must be 100.
So your estimate of weight in regard to Ms Kubheka, could be far out, 20kgs out?
MR WASSERMAN: That's very possible.
MR WILLS: Yes. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Wills. Mr Hugo, any re-examination?
MR HUGO: No thank you, Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, any questions you'd like to ask?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Wasserman, thank you, that concludes your evidence.
MR VISSER: May I call Mr du Preez as well, Chairperson?
SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS DU PREEZ
CHAIRPERSON: Just let me get your name down, it's Salmon Johannes Gerhardus du Preez?
SALMON JOHANNES GERHARDUS MR DU PREEZ: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Visser.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr du Preez, you have also testified previously?
MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You have now had the opportunity to view the exhibits which have been placed before the Committee. As you recall the size and the build of Ms Kubheka ...
MR DU PREEZ: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: I'm just waiting for the interpretation to come through.
Would you be able to say whether those clothes would have fit here?
MR DU PREEZ: In my opinion these clothes would have been way too small for her. They would not have fitted her because they would have been too small.
MR VISSER: You also helped to carry her on the road near Inanda, where you left her?
MR VISSER: If you had to estimate her weight, what would you say it would be?
MR DU PREEZ: I would say that she weighed over 100 kilograms, 100 to 150 kilograms.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that you're estimating her weight to be 100 to 150kgs?
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Hugo, any questions?
MR HUGO: No questions, thank you.
MR NEL: No questions, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr van der Merwe?
MR VAN DER MERWE: No questions, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO QUESTIONS BY MR VAN DER MERWE
FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WILLS: You said in your evidence at 1802 of the record, when giving evidence-in-chief, that you couldn't remember the clothing at all.
MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR WILLS: Ja. Does this prompt your memory in any way?
MR WILLS: You can't even remember if she was wearing a dress?
MR DU PREEZ: I recall that she did wear a dress, but this dress and its colour does not bring any recollection to mind.
MR WILLS: Can you remember if she was wearing a jersey?
MR DU PREEZ: I cannot recall that there was a jersey involved. As far as I can recall she was wearing only a dress.
MR WILLS: And do you know possibly if she was - would you have noticed if she'd been wearing that polo-neck? Often those polo-necks are worn under the dress. Can you remember anything about the polo-neck?
MR DU PREEZ: I cannot, I cannot recall at all that there was a polo-neck.
MR WILLS: Surely when you put her into the car you would have afforded her the dignity her in a position quite carefully, that she wouldn't have been indecently exposed. Or did you just dump her in?
MR DU PREEZ: She was simply placed into the car. She was pulled into the kombi. No attempt was made to expose her or to prevent her exposure.
MR WILLS: And when you put her into the - correct me if I'm wrong, were you involved in disposing of her body?
MR WILLS: And when you put her into the, I think it was the panel van, wasn't it, or a bakkie of sorts?
MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, if I recall correctly it was a Nissan vehicle. I think it was an 18 hundred Nissan.
MR WILLS: A Skyline, that's right. Now when you put her in that vehicle, you obviously laid her on the back seat.
CHAIRPERSON: It was the boot, as far as I can recall.
MR WILLS: Yes. When you put her in the boot, you didn't then think to treat her gently?
MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, I placed a corpse in the back of the vehicle, to treat it gently never emerged in my mind, I had placed a corpse in the back of the vehicle.
MR WILLS: I would have thought you would have put a woman's body in, in such a way that you would have taken care to make sure that she was put in without indecently being exposed, is that not the case?
MR DU PREEZ: No, Chairperson, it never occurred to me.
MR WILLS: Thank you, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WILLS
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Samuel, do you have any questions?
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, do you have any questions?
MS THABETHE: No questions, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Hugo - I'm sorry, Mr Visser?
MR VISSER: No Chairperson, thank you.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lax, any questions?
MR LAX: Just one question, Chair.
Mr du Preez, apart from this particular day where you were asked to assist with the disposing of the body, were you present during the interrogation?
MR DU PREEZ: I was not present during her interrogation.
MR LAX: You weren't present during the time that the abduction took place?
MR DU PREEZ: I assisted with the arrest.
MR LAX: So apart from those few fleeting moments, you had no other contact with Mrs Kubheka?
MR LAX: You hadn't seen her before?
MR DU PREEZ: I didn't know her, I knew her family.
MR LAX: So that really was - I mean the sum total of you seeing her, apart from handling her when she was deceased, was pretty short?
MR DU PREEZ: Chairperson, what I can recall is her mass, she was tremendously heavy, we struggled to put her in the vehicle and to remove her and to drag her from the road into the grass.
MR LAX: Yes, I understand that, but the fact of the matter is, you didn't have much opportunity to observe her, apart from lifting her?
MR DU PREEZ: No, only the arrest and from that point onwards ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: The Interpreter didn't hear the last bit of what the speaker said.
MR LAX: Sorry, just repeat it. You're saying it was approximately half an hour?
MR DU PREEZ: Yes, as long as it would take to drive from Battery Beach to Toti.
MR LAX: And in that time she was seated in a vehicle.
MR DU PREEZ: That is correct, she was seated in the kombi.
MR LAX: Is it possible that with this lapse of time, you're exaggerating the extent of her hugeness in your own mind, it may have got bigger with the passing of time?
MR DU PREEZ: That is how I recall her.
CHAIRPERSON: Are there any questions arising from questions that have been put by Mr Lax? Mr du Preez, thank you, that concludes your testimony.
CHAIRPERSON: That then concludes the testimony of the applicants, am I correct? The next witness, Mr Samuel, will it be Mr Mbane?
Mr Mbane, do you wish to the oath or would you prefer to make an affirmation?
FRANK XHOLA MBANE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, please be seated. Sorry, before you proceed, what are your full names?
CHAIRPERSON: And you're going to testify in Xhosa, isiXhosa?
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Samuel.
EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Mbane, you made in fact two statements. In bundle 1 your statement appears at page 122 to 131, do you confirm the contents of this statement?
MR LAX: The question was, do you confirm the contents of your statement at page 122 to 131?
MR MBANE: Yes, I confirm that.
MR SAMUEL: And you made a similar statement, almost identical statement in the additional bundle, at page 120 to 137, do you confirm that statement also?
MR MBANE: Yes, that is correct.
MR SAMUEL: Now we will restrict ourselves to just the matter at hand, that is Ntombi Kubheka, and I refer you to page 128 of bundle 1, and page 130 in bundle 2, or the additional bundle. Do you confirm the contents of those portions also?
CHAIRPERSON: When you say you confirm that contents, do you confirm the contents as being correct?
MR SAMUEL: Do you confirm the contents as being correct?
MR SAMUEL: I notice that you haven't made a detailed statement as to the exact sequence of events, would you like to proceed to explain to this Commission, the sequence of events in regard to Ntombi Kubheka, from the time you met her prior to her abduction, to the time you last saw her at Winkelspruit?
MR MBANE: Yes, I can continue.
"We went from Vlakplaas as a unit, we came to Durban, CR Swart. When we arrived in CR Swart, we stayed for about three days. We would patrol in town. On this third day, if I'm not mistaken, I was called together with Simon Radebe and Dube.
We were introduced to one man who had an injured leg. We were then told that this man had an information that there were four terrorists in the township, in KwaMashu township. So this man was supposed to show us this house where these terrorists were staying.
I, together with Dube and Radebe, who was the driver, and together with this man who was going to show us this place. Radebe stopped the car on the way and dropped us on the way. I think about one kilometre or less than a kilometre to this place. We then left with this man and then he introduced us as his comrades in this house. He went to this house.
We told the deceased that we were coming from outside, we just wanted to see how the other comrades were working. He told us that there were problems and there was one man who had a problem concerning accommodation and he was not safe where he was staying, but she would go and tell him that there are other comrades from outside who were in that house. So we agreed upon that.
We made an appointment with her to meet on the following day. We went back and then we found Radebe at the place where we left him. We went into the car and we gave him a report-back of what happened. We left, we went back to CR Swart.
When we arrived there, Radebe gave a report to the white people who were our seniors. They called me and Dube and this other guy who had plaster of paris and we told them that we were, they accepted us in that house and we told them that we had to find something that would assure them that we were coming from outside.
We were then to get weapons from the Eastern Bloc, a Makarov and AKs. We got them and then we put them in a bag. The following day at night ... There's something that I forgot. Ntombi gave me the phone numbers where I should contact her and she also said that that was a well known place, that house. So I phoned her and I told her that we were coming and I asked whether she had organised this person that needed accommodation to be there, and she said that we must not talk those things over the telephone.
When we went there, Radebe again dropped us nearby, because we had not introduced him to Ntombi, so when we arrived I told her to put this bag in the bedroom in a safe place. She then took the bag and I told her that there is another man who is helping us in connection with transport and we had left that man in a certain place, we did not want to bring him because he was not aware of what we were doing, but he was helping us with transport. So she said that that is not a problem, we can bring this man to the house.
I sent Dube to go and call Radebe, where he stopped the car. Dube came with Radebe. We parked the car outside and we introduced him as our sympathiser and as the driver of the transport that we were using. We then said to Radebe we were welcomed in the house, so we asked him to go and buy some drinks, so that we can drink.
The deceased organised and Radebe took out some money, but I can't remember how much. The deceased then left, she sent a child to go and buy some liquor, then that child came back and we drank. And we found out that she was not able to get these men that needed accommodation, so we went back to CR Swart.
I then suggested that because we go in and out of CR Swart, we would not know that someone maybe is following us, maybe someone in the area would follow us and then that person would be surprised because we said we were terrorists, so what were we doing in the police station. I suggested that we find another place to stay. Botha and Coetzee, they said that we had to get another place to stay, they would try and organise that.
On the third day we did not go back there. We were told not to go out of the base, to remain in the base until we get a place to stay. We stayed the whole day in the base. On the fourth day we were told to take our clothes, because accommodation was found."
MR SAMUEL: Sorry Mr Chairman, may we request a short adjournment, I believe Ms Thabethe has to attend to some business. ...(indistinct) five minutes adjournment - three minutes.
CHAIRPERSON: We'll take a short adjournment
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, Mr Samuel, you can continue.
MR SAMUEL: Continue, Mr Mbane, but please go slowly, so that the Interpreter gets an opportunity ...
CHAIRPERSON: Yes when we adjourned, Mr Mbane, you had said that after waiting that time, you were told to take your clothes as accommodation had been found for you.
"We took our clothes, we went to the kombi. We drove to Winkelspruit. At that time I did not know that that area was Winkelspruit. When we arrived there, we also canvass tents, we then build a house with those and then we also had food, groceries.
That same night, Dube and I and this other man who was operating with us at that time, we went back to Ntombi. When we arrived there we asked how things were and then she said that she found this man that was looking for accommodation, but since it was at night, she would not be able to go and fetch him, because he was staying in squatter camps. We then said that we would come back the following day, but we did not want to frequent that house, because she told us that that house was already suspected. She then said that if we would come during the day it would be better. If I'm not mistaken, it was on a Saturday, but I'm not sure about that.
On Saturday we arrived there at about four. We arrived at about four and when we arrived there we were together with Radebe. When we arrived, I went with Ntombi, we went to a certain corner, we stood there and she left me for about two or three minutes. When she came back, she came back with this man, but I can't remember his name, because we were calling each other comrades.
I was introduced to this comrade. We then decided to go to the house, we did not want to chat on the street. We went back to Ntombi's house. When we arrived there we asked him questions, Dube and I, asked him questions, because Radebe was not that involved, he was helping us with transport and with money. So he did not say anything.
Dube and I and Gipbene(?) were the ones who were talking to this man. This man told us that he had financial problems ..."
MR LAX: Sorry, could you just repeat the name you mentioned now, something like Gipbene or ... something like that, I don't know what the name was.
CHAIRPERSON: Gripbene, is that gips?
"He told us that he had financial problems and where he was staying it was not safe. I then asked him that since he was from Zambia and he came through front line States, was he armed. He said yes, he was armed. I then said that it would be better if we take those arms with him and leave with him. And at that time Radebe was not saying anything as the person who was not aware of anything.
I then called Dube outside, I asked him what to do in that situation. We then decided to leave this man behind and to come back the following day to fetch him, so that we can arrange a place for him to stay, we cannot leave him that time. We wanted to do this, so that we can report to our seniors that we had found this person and the arms were there.
We stayed for a while and at night we went back to Winkelspruit and I told them in Winkelspruit that we found this man, he was trained and he knew the language that was used outside and he also had weapons. They then asked why we left him behind. We then said that we decided to leave him behind and to go to them and report first. We were then told that the following day we had to fetch him and than arrangements were made, because I was not familiar with Durban at time.
We spent the night in Winkelspruit. On the following day, at night, I phoned during the day and I told Ntombi to arrange so that when we got there we find this man there, so that we can go and fetch the weapons and take him to a safe place.
I think it was on a Sunday, if I'm not mistaken. I can't remember the days well, because this happened a long time ago. On Sunday we arrived there, we found this man, we went with him to a squatter camps in Inanda, I think it was in Inanda, but I'm not sure, in the squatter camps.
When we arrived there this man took out, AK, Makarov, grenades, two or three, but two of those had detonators and one did not have a detonator. He took them out and then he took his clothes, we went with him, we drove with him.
On the way we stopped on a false roadblock. When we arrived there, we knew that it was a false roadblock. We handed him over to the white men. We then left, we went to sleep.
On the following day I was told to go and fetch a car, a Corolla at CR Swart. Radebe then took us to CR Swart. When we arrived in CR Swart with Radebe and Dube and this other man, Gipsbeen, Simon got a watch, this guy's watch and I was given a bag. Dube took clothes and this other man also took clothes of this guy. We were given these items when we were in CR Swart.
I then said to Radebe, "This shows that they had finished with this guy, they had killed him, because we were given the items that belonged to him." That was according to my perception.
After two or three days I went back to Ntombi, I told her that the guy is safe, there is no problem, he is in a safe place. Ntombi then said that there is another man who also has a problem, this man has got items in a certain place and he would like these things to be fetched and she also said that she would like to introduce this man to us.
We left with her to Lamontville, or to Chesterville, I'm not sure. When we arrived there, Ntombi went in and she left us behind. This man came, by the name of Sbu. Sbu introduced himself and we also introduced ourselves to him. He told us that he had weapons in the Transkei and he wanted those weapons to be fetched. He then asked about transport and then I told him that Radebe was the one who was helping us out concerning transport. We then told him that we would see him the following day.
We went back to the base and we gave a report-back. We were then told to see what to do, because it was impossible for us to go to the Transkei. On the following day we went back to him, driving a Corolla, not a kombi this time. There was an RPG7, AK, and we all had Makarovs, so that this man can also see that we were also armed and there were also shells of the RPG7, but I can't remember how many there were.
We met this man nearby his residence. We then requested that we move from that area to another place, so that we can discuss these things. We decided to go to Ntombi. We bought liquor when we arrived there and we had gained confidence of this man, he trusted us. We then said that we discussed this Transkei issue. This man then showed us his friends, Zimba, that was together with him in the struggle.
We went back to the base at night. The following day we reported back to our seniors about what happened. We were told to gather some more information, to find out if he's got some more information. We were with this man for about a week and we'd contact Ntombi every day, visit her or phone her.
On another day we were told to bring Sbu with us. We took a kombi, it was myself, Simon, Dube, the there of us. This other guy who had a plaster of paris was not with us on that occasion. We took him and we were told to take him to the base. We made sure that we cover his eyes. We found him next to Kentucky Fried Chicken, because we did not want to pick him up at home.
We found him there, we took him to our seniors. We told him that we did not want him to see where we were going. We then handed him over to the white men. That was the last time I saw him and I concluded that they had killed him. And we did not ask any questions about the whereabouts of this man.
We stayed in the base, if I'm not mistaken I think about four to five weeks and I would see Ntombi. Ntombi again gave us another man, I don't know his name. When we took this man to the base and I could see that he did not trust us, he wanted to cause problems for us. We told him that we were terrorists and we can kill, so if he wanted to see that we are able to kill, he will see.
The fact that this man was killed, that was not planned, it just happened. He was shot, he died and we left his body next to the hotel. That was a busy area, we thought that maybe people would think that we were fighting, drinking alcohol and fighting and then somebody shot him, so we left him there.
We would see Ntombi now and again and she told us that there were another four comrades that arrived. She was worried that she did not know where the other three were, so she wanted to see at least of them, one of the three. We said that that was not a problem, if she wanted to see them, we would arrange that to happen.
We reported back to your seniors, we said that there were four people that were around, but Ntombi is not going to show us these people before she could see one of the three that she handed over to us. So we thought that she was suspecting something. We were told to bring Ntombi, because she did not want to show us the other four comrades.
We also had our own meeting, decided that this would be dangerous if we can go straight to the house to fetch her, because if she would disappear after these three people had disappeared. So we thought that it would be better if she would come to us, meet with her at the station or the taxi rank. We agreed. I phoned her and I asked her to meet us at the Durban station. She agreed and she told me which clothes she would be wearing and I told her that I would be driving with a white Corolla. Sometimes it would be sky blue, sometimes it would be white. The colour of this car used to change frequently."
MR SAMUEL: If you'll just hold on there, Mr Mbane, just go back a little bit before we get the issues confused here. Alright. You told us that you had taken the last person whom you all had killed and thrown the body at the hotel, do you recall the last person that you all had taken from Ntombi?
MR MBANE: I cannot remember their names, Chairperson.
MR SAMUEL: Okay, but do you remember that incident? We're talking about that incident now. Now in that incident, who was with you at that time?
MR MBANE: It was myself, Radebe and Dube. I was the driver.
MR SAMUEL: You were the driver. Do you know who killed this person?
MR MBANE: Radebe was in the back seat, so I can say it is him who killed this man.
MR SAMUEL: And did you help Mr Radebe to dispose of the body at the hotel?
MR MBANE: Dube and I were the ones who took the body out of the car.
MR SAMUEL: Now you've heard Mr Radebe's statement that he never killed anybody, nor did you drive any vehicle on that day. Do you recall Mr Radebe's evidence?
MR MBANE: Chairperson, I am here to tell the truth, I'm not defending anybody. I'm here to tell the truth, so that the families of the deceased can know what happened to their people. So if he is still denying certain things, I don't know what to say, because I am telling you what happened, I'm not hiding anything, I'm not adding anything, I'm just telling what happened as it happened.
MR SAMUEL: Just on that point, Mr Mbane, are you making application for amnesty?
MR SAMUEL: So would I be correct in saying, as you just stated, that your only reason for coming before this Commission is to tell the Commission and the family of the deceased what has actually transpired, am I right?
MR SAMUEL: Would you get any benefit out of this disclosure?
MR MBANE: The only thing that I would get is forgiveness, and I also want the families to know what happened to their people.
MR SAMUEL: And that this disclosure you've made freely and voluntarily, am I right?
MR SAMUEL: Now let's go back to this point where Ms Ntombi was becoming suspicious because she hadn't seen the four people that she had given you - the there people that she had given you all, and she wanted to see one of the persons. You mentioned that you all had your own discussion, could you just elaborate on that, was the discussion just between yourself, Mr Radebe and Mr Dube, or were your seniors involved at that stage?
MR MBANE: Yes, they were there.
MR SAMUEL: Pardon? Are you saying that your seniors were also involved in the discussion?
MR MBANE: Yes, they were present, it is where they decided that I should bring Ntombi.
MR SAMUEL: Were you given any specific instructions in this regard, the bringing of Ntombi to them?
MR MBANE: We went to fetch her because we were given instructions to bring her and then she would be interrogated and asked questions about the four comrades.
MR SAMUEL: And who gave you this instruction?
MR MBANE: We were talking with Botha. He is the person that we used to talk to, and Coetzer.
MR SAMUEL: You see in our evidence when we were putting your version to the various witnesses, we also mentioned that Taylor gave some instructions, would that be correct? Or am I mistaken?
MR MBANE: Yes, he used to be there also.
MR SAMUEL: Now you are from Vlakplaas, am I right?
MR SAMUEL: And you were under the direct command, or indirect command of Eugene de Kock, is that correct? From Vlakplaas.
MR MBANE: He was the Commander in Vlakplaas, but he was not here, he was not involved.
MR SAMUEL: And Joe Coetzer, was he also attached to Vlakplaas?
MR MBANE: That is correct, we came with him from Vlakplaas.
MR SAMUEL: Now did you tell Joe Coetzer that your superiors, Mr Botha and Taylor and others had asked you to go and get Ms Ntombi Kubheka? The reason why I ask this is that Mr Coetzer made a statement, stating that he came to know about this abduction from you, do you know anything about that conversation between Mr Coetzer and Mr Eugene de Kock?
MR MBANE: I don't understand the question.
MR SAMUEL: Let me put it this way ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: The question was, first of all, before you elaborate it, Mr Samuel, "Did you tell Coetzee that Botha and/or Taylor, your seniors, had asked you to fetch the deceased?"
MR SAMUEL: Sorry, Mr Chairman, it's Mr Coetzer, not Coetzee.
CHAIRPERSON: Coetzer, sorry. Did you tell Joe Coetzer that you had been asked or told to fetch the deceased?
MR MBANE: There's no way that he would not know this, because they would discuss these things and then they would then give us instructions. So in other words, he knew about this.
CHAIRPERSON: The question, if you can listen to the question, Mr Mbane. The question was, did you tell Coetzer that you had been told to fetch the deceased? I'm not asking whether Coetzer knew about the deceased being fetched, but the question that Mr Samuel asked you was, did you yourself, tell Coetzer that you had been told by other officers to fetch the deceased?
MR MBANE: I would not have reported something that he knew, because they had discussed this.
MR SAMUEL: If we may proceed, Mr Chairman, I'll leave that point aside ...(intervention)
MR LAX: Sorry Mr Samuel, you're putting something to this witness on the basis that that's what he said in his statement, which statement are you referring to?
MR SAMUEL: No, Sir, I'm referring to Joe Coetzer's statement.
MR LAX: Yes, I want to know which one in particular. Because I've just read through the statement in the bundle at page 102 of bundle 2 and he doesn't say that at all. I just don't want you putting the wrong words in the mouth of the witness. If you look at page 102 at the top, paragraph 6.
MR LAX: He says he can remember the following facts and then he sets out what he can remember, and he got the information from members of the Security Branch, Durban.
MR SAMUEL: yes, unfortunately that was the Afrikaans version, I have the English translation. I withdraw that question, Mr Chairman. Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Mbane, we come to the point, so you all got these instructions to bring Ntombi to your seniors, am I right?
MR SAMUEL: Can you proceed from there, what happened?
MR LAX: Well who gave you the instruction?
MR MBANE: We would be called, all of us, and then Radebe would be given instructions and he would then give us instructions, as our senior.
MR LAX: Is this your assumption, or is this a fact that you remember? Because the way you've put it, you've said "We would be called." Do you not remember and are you just making an assumption about what would have happened, or do you actually remember it?
MR MBANE: What would happen, Radebe would be called and given orders and then if we were not satisfied about what Radebe told us, Botha or Coetzee would come and explain to us, but they were giving instructions to Radebe.
MR LAX: Yes, but in this instance we want to know who gave you this specific instruction. Can you remember? If you can't remember, say you can't remember.
MR MBANE: If I can still remember well, it was Botha. If I can still remember well.
MR LAX: And was it Botha directly to you, or via Radebe?
MR MBANE: If my memory serves well, he instructed Radebe and then we had some questions and Botha then came directly to us and he said that Ntombi would show them where the other four were.
MR MBANE: ...(no interpretation)
MR LAX: Sorry, there's a problem, we're not getting any translation I'm afraid.
CHAIRPERSON: Sorry, if you could just repeat your answer, Mr Mbane.
"We took Ntombi with us, we went to the beach with her. When we arrived there at the beach, Dube and Simon got out of the car, Ntombi and I - they left Ntombi and I. When I saw this car with white man, I made a sign, gave them a sign, got out of the car and I left Ntombi in the car, after giving them a sign.
I think ten to fifteen metres from the car I could see that they were taking here and they took her to a kombi. They left with her. I went back to the car with Radebe and Dube. After about five to ten minutes we followed them.
When we arrived in Winkelspruit we parked our car. We were in the veranda, we could hear the screams when they were torturing her."
MR SAMUEL: When you last saw Ms Ntombi Kubheka, would you explain to us what you saw. How were her hands, was she blindfolded?
MR MBANE: She was blindfolded and then her hands were tied from her back, if I can still remember well.
MR SAMUEL: And you told us that when you all got to Battery Beach, that's the place near the beach, you gave a signal, what signal did you give to the other white members?
MR MBANE: I pressed the brakes about three times.
MR SAMUEL: Yes. When you got to Winkelspruit, what happened, what did you see?
"When we arrived there we parked our car opposite that house that was there, we then heard screams, Botha would come out and ask us that is it true that Ntombi said there were another four comrades, we would say yes, that's what she said, and Col Baker would come in and out and ask us some questions.
After some time, after an hour or after two hours, Botha then came out and told us that that woman passed away, she is dead."
MR SAMUEL: Now try and be more specific here. When Botha came out from the room and asked, you say asked you all what Ntombi had told you all, was Mr Radebe and Mr Dube present at that stage with you?
MR MBANE: The three of us we were there.
CHAIRPERSON: We know you were at Winkelspruit, but were they present with you, were they in your immediate presence when Botha came out and spoke to you? Would they also have heard what Botha said, or were they in a different place at Winkelspruit. We went there and saw that it's quite a big property.
MR MBANE: Yes, we were together in the veranda, the three of us. We were together in the same place.
MR SAMUEL: I can't hear the translation.
CHAIRPERSON: The translation was, "Yes, we were together. The three of us were in the same place."
MR SAMUEL: ...(indistinct) I couldn't hear.
CHAIRPERSON: Just put your volume up a touch, Mr Samuel.
Mr Mbane, Mr Radebe says that he was not present in the vicinity, he was far away at the kombi, he did not hear anything in regard to what transpired in that room. What do you have to say about that?
MR MBANE: Sir, as I have already said, that's surprised me because I don't understand why he is hiding things, because we were together, Botha would come to us and Baker would come and ask questions. We were in the veranda, the three of us. It is true that he would sleep in the car, but when this was happening, the three of us were in the veranda.
MR SAMUEL: And these screams that you heard, were they loud screams, were they screams of pain? Could you explain to this Commission what you heard in regard to the screams?
MR MBANE: She would scream and she would make screams of pain. I could hear that she was in pain.
MR SAMUEL: I see. And do you recall at what stage where Mr Radebe slept that night, did he sleep at Winkelspruit or did he go to CR Swart?
MR MBANE: Sir, all of us we slept in Winkelspruit. We left there after two days, after two days after this incident.
MR SAMUEL: And did you also sleep in the kombi with Mr Radebe on that night or did you sleep somewhere else?
MR MBANE: No, Dube and I slept in the same place where we used to sleep. Radebe is the one who slept in the kombi, Dube and I slept in the veranda.
MR SAMUEL: Now the veranda that you speak about, how far is it away from where Ms Ntombi Kubheka was being interrogated?
MR MBANE: It is the same place, it's just that that room had a door and in the veranda we did not have a door. It's in the same place, it was next door.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying that the deceased was in a room which led off the veranda, the door of the room in which she was, was on the veranda itself?
MR MBANE: When you go to that room you would pass the veranda and then go through that room.
MR SAMUEL: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Now if that door was open, would you able to see into that room, what transpired in that room?
CHAIRPERSON: I think if the door is open on any room you can see inside it, so I think rather ask whether he could see inside the room while she was there.
MR SAMUEL: Did you at any stage see Ms Ntombi Kubheka in that room whilst you were in the veranda?
MR MBANE: No, we did not see her.
ADV BOSMAN: Mr Samuel, can I just come in here for some clarification.
ADV BOSMAN: At the time when you heard the screams, were you sort of in bed trying to sleep, or what was the position?
MR MBANE: We were not in bed, we were just sitting there, we wanted to hear what was happening.
ADV BOSMAN: And were you discussing this?
MR MBANE: We were drinking liquor and just discussing.
Now when that body - after Ms Kubheka died, the body was removed from the room, where were you at that stage?
MR MBANE: I was about to talk about that, so now you are asking me a question of which I was going to talk about, you're leading me.
CHAIRPERSON: Just tell us please.
MR MBANE: After some time, Botha told us that this woman is dead due to her attack, and then we were surprised that how can this happen so quickly. And we could see that they did not know what to do, they would go in and out of that room.
After some time Miyeza came. When Miyeza arrived, he spoke with these white men, if I'm not mistaken. When we were told that this woman had died, Simon went to the kombi. If I can still remember, Dube and I were still there in the veranda and we saw that there's this person who was being wrapped in a blanket and her body was put in one car and then these two cars followed each other, Miyeza's car and the white man's car. After that I don't know what happened.
MR SAMUEL: There will be a suggestion made to you when you are cross-examined, that you could be confusing the issues, this incident with some other incident, will that be possible, or do you have a clear recollection of this incident?
MR MBANE: Here in Durban this was my first operation, the second one was in Josini. So there is no way that I could be confusing this with another operation, because Josini and Durban are this - I can't confuse those two.
MR SAMUEL: Were you paid for this operation, Mr Mbane?
MR MBANE: Yes, Dube and I were paid.
MR SAMUEL: How much were you all paid?
MR MBANE: Col Taylor gave us the money before we left, before we went back to Pretoria.
MR SAMUEL: No further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Samuel. I think we'll do it by asking the applicants first, we'll keep the same order.
Mr Visser, do you have any questions that you'd like to put?
MR MBANE: Excuse, Mr Chairperson, I would like to know that can't finish up the details, because I'm being asked questions and I'm not finished with giving the details?
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, well we were told by Mr Samuel that you were finished.
FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR SAMUEL: Sorry, may I take some instructions? Sorry, there are a few other details.
Can you proceed from there, what transpired after this body was removed? Was that the end of the matter, or were you asked to do anything further in regard to Ntombi Kubheka?
"The following day we were told to remain there, to stay there and we stayed the whole day. We cooked potjiekos. The second day we were told that we had to go back to Ntombi's house to find out what was happening. I then said that - I refused, I said I was not going to got there. Coetzer was the one who was telling me to do that.
Instead of doing that, I phoned that house and a lady answered the telephone, she said that Ntombi was not there, she went to meet some people. We did not agree about this issue because I did not want to go there at all.
On the third day we went back to Vlakplaas."
CHAIRPERSON: When you say "we went back to Vlakplaas", are you saying that was yourself, Dube, Botha, Coetzer, Baker, Ras, all of you?
MR MBANE: Those that were involved in this operation were myself, Dube and Simon, we went back to Vlakplaas, the three of us. We took our clothes to Winkelspruit and went to CR Swart. We took some items that we left there and then we went back to Vlakplaas to join other units. That is all.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mbane.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SAMUEL
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, do you have any questions?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Mbane, why have you come to this Committee to give evidence, did somebody ask you to do so?
MR MBANE: The reason why I came here is my conscience and I also wanted the family members of the deceased to know what happened to their people. That is why I came forward to give this evidence.
MR VISSER: But do you concede that, do you realise that you did something that was not legal? It was unlawful, in regard to the abduction of Ms Kubheka?
MR MBANE: At that time I considered it as a legal thing to fetch Kubheka, to take her to be interrogated.
MR VISSER: Do you still think that you did nothing wrong?
MR MBANE: The people that did something wrong were those that killed her.
MR VISSER: Is that the reason why you're not applying for amnesty?
MR VISSER: Alright. You also told the Committee through your attorney, that you feared for your life, did you tell your attorney that you feared for your life on the last occasion in September 1999 when we were here?
MR VISSER: From whom did you have this fear?
MR MBANE: Sir, it's not the first time that I come forward before the Truth Commission to give evidence. I would get threats. After I gave evidence in Cape Town, some strange people would come and look for me at home and I would not know those people. They would come driving a car, so I was not safe, because they feared that I would come forward and tell the truth.
MR VISSER: Who threatened you? Can you tell us one name of anybody who threatened you because you gave evidence?
MR VISSER: Aren't you in jail?
MR VISSER: What are you talking about, when you're at home? When was this that you're talking about? Let me ask you this, how long have you been in jail?
MR VISSER: Were you made any promises if you gave evidence here today, by anyone?
MR MBANE: No, there are no promises, I am not going to gain anything.
MR VISSER: Right. Now the point is that of your evidence as I understand it, is that at least at one stage it was clear that there was information that four, as they were called then, terrorists, were in the country and your job was to find out where they were. Did I understand you correctly, Mr Mbane?
MR MBANE: Can you please repeat your question, Sir?
MR VISSER: Just tell me whether I heard you correctly to say that you were told that there were four terrorists in KwaMashu and it was your job to try and find out where they were, so that they could be handed over to your seniors.
MR MBANE: Yes, that is correct.
MR VISSER: What I want to know is the other three people that you spoke about, there was first one person ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: He said there was the person handed over at the roadblock, there was Sbu and there was the person you mentioned who was shot in the kombi and left at the hotel, those three.
Were those three part of the four that you were looking for, or were they three others?
MR MBANE: They were not part of the three, we heard about them after we handed the three. We were told that there are other people from Zambia, but then Ntombi said she would like to see one of the three first.
MR VISSER: Yes. Was Gipsman also a terrorist?
MR VISSER: Was he also killed do you think?
MR VISSER: Ja well you also don't know whether the others were killed, you said you drew an inference that they were killed. You inferred that they were killed, isn't that right? Sbu, for example, you don't know that he was killed, do you?
CHAIRPERSON: He knew that the one was killed of the other three, because he was shot in the kombi.
MR VISSER: Correct Chairperson, I should have ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: But the other two, Sbu and the man that was handed over at the false roadblock.
MR VISSER: Those two, do you know that they were killed?
MR MBANE: That is what I think.
MR VISSER: Yes, you drew an inference, you think so. Alright. Now you say that you were given weapons in order to obtain some credibility with Ms Kubheka, is that right?
MR VISSER: Who gave you those weapons? Can you remember?
MR MBANE: I think it was Botha, if I still remember well.
MR VISSER: Yes. You seem to have your knife in for Mr Botha, don't you Mr Mbane, because let me tell you that Mr Botha gave evidence here to say that he didn't know anything about that. Were you here and did you hear that evidence?
MR MBANE: Which thing are you talking about that Botha ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: That he knows anything about you being given weapons to go and show Kubheka.
MR MBANE: I don't what to say if he says that. Where do we get weapons then, because we got weapons when we arrived her in Durban?
MR VISSER: Yes, so you say ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: You said - this is my note, you were asked who gave you the weapons and your answer was, what I wrote down
"I think it was Botha, if I remember well"
Now what does that mean, it may not be Botha?
"I think it was Botha, if I remember well"
Are you saying it was Botha, or are you assuming it must have been Botha, or you can't remember?
MR MBANE: I am still saying that if my memory serves me well, I think it was Botha.
MR VISSER: That makes it crystal clear, Chairperson.
Now you see, Mr Botha - did you hear Mr Botha deny that he gave you these weapons? That he said that he knew nothing about this, did you hear when he gave that evidence?
MR VISSER: Did you then tell your attorney "I don't agree with that, Botha is wrong"? Did you tell your attorney that?
MR MBANE: It is because at that time I did not give evidence, so I did not dispute that.
MR VISSER: Yes, nor did your attorney place that in dispute. Aright. You say you were the one that suggested that they should find a place where you could stay when you were here from Vlakplaas, and not to stay at CR Swart, is that what you're saying?
MR MBANE: That is correct, because that place was not safe.
MR VISSER: So the white seniors couldn't work this out for themselves it seems, that it was dangerous for you to go down to CR Swart to sleep there. They couldn't work this out for themselves, is that what you're saying? You had to tell them.
MR MBANE: It is because I was the one who was involved in this mission, so I was the one who was aware of the situation. So if I don't tell them about myself's safety, they wouldn't have thought about it.
MR VISSER: Yes, that's exactly what I thought you said. You see and that wasn't put to Mr Botha, but it's not that important, so I make no more of it than to say that that scenario wasn't put to Mr Botha.
CHAIRPERSON: When it's a convenient time, Mr Visser, we can adjourn.
MR VISSER: On the spot, thank you, Chairperson.
Chairperson, we find ourselves in a little bit of a problem, because we don't know what the procedure is as far as the witnesses are concerned, and as you can well imagine, sometimes it's a bit of an embarrassment if you suddenly see a certain witness walk up to the witness box. Could you have from Ms Thabethe, some indication as to the order of the witnesses, so that we know how to properly prepare to meet that?
CHAIRPERSON: I think that's reasonable. Ms Thabethe, could you give an indication, or perhaps Mr Samuel, after Mr Mbane's testimony are you going to be calling any other witnesses?
MR SAMUEL: No, no other witness that I know of.
CHAIRPERSON: Ms Thabethe, you're going to be calling, you indicated at the pre-hearing, certain witnesses, could you at this stage, if not give the order of all of them, but at least let's say the next two witnesses?
MS THABETHE: After Mr Mbane it will be Stephanie Miller, depending on what is in dispute, we might call some witnesses with regard to her evidence, if there's nothing in dispute, then we won't call those people. For example, if it's accepted that the mortuary report was there, then we don't need to call people from the mortuary.
CHAIRPERSON: Oh you mean the evidence relating to the actual exhumation and the mortuary report registers ...(intervention)
MS THABETHE: Yes, that whole chain, yes.
MS THABETHE: But I have them on standby. After that it will be Dr Naidoo.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, okay I think that will ...(intervention)
MS THABETHE: And thereafter, Peter Vanezis, through the video construction. Sorry Mr Chair, I think after Stephanie Miller, we might have to - I intend calling Mrs Dludla with regard ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Dludla, that is the neighbour.
MS THABETHE: The neighbour, yes. And then Dr Naidoo and then Peter Vanezis.
CHAIRPERSON: So definitely the next one will be Stephanie Miller, followed probably by Mrs Dludla and then Dr Naidoo, but there might be some shorter evidence in-between, but you'll give notice if that arises, yes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Visser, anything else?
MR VISSER: Just one last aspect, Chairperson, you know how I've been going on about registers, we haven't any report back as to what happened yesterday and I just want to know whether we're going to be confronted here with registers, etcetera, etcetera.
CHAIRPERSON: I haven't received any report either. Do you know anything about the registers that were going to be looked for yesterday, Ms Thabethe?
MS THABETHE: I would suggest we discuss it in chambers, Mr Chair, because I was under the impression that Deborah gave you a report back.
CHAIRPERSON: No we haven't received a report, because as Mr Visser said, and I'm sure it applies to all the legal representatives, as soon as they are available, if they are available, they should be given access to it and not to be confronted with it during the course of testimony.
MS THABETHE: Mr Fanie Muller has just indicated that they wouldn't allow them to come with the registers obviously, but they are there. If we subpoena them to come they can be made available.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes, I think then we can subpoena them to bring the registers if they're not prepared to bring them voluntarily.
MS THABETHE: Of course they want us to indicate then when they should come.
CHAIRPERSON: Well as soon as possible, because I think the thing is not just for them to use it in giving evidence, we want to let the people take a look at them and study them before they give evidence. So I think we can subpoena them to bring them as soon as possible.
MS THABETHE: Very well, Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Thank you, that then brings us to the conclusion of today's proceedings and would it be convenient to start at 9 o'clock tomorrow morning?
We'll adjourn until 9 o'clock tomorrow morning, when we'll resume with the evidence of Mr Mbane. Thank you, we'll adjourn until then.