ADV BOSMAN: Mr Greyling, can you just give us your full names.
DANIEL JACOBUS GREYLING: (sworn states)
ADV BOSMAN: The witness is properly sworn.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Advocate Bosman. Mr Prinsloo?
EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Greyling, you apply for amnesty for the abduction and other incidents resulting from this, is that correct?
MR PRINSLOO: Your application appears on page 96 of the bundle, up and to page 98, and the incident itself appears on page 99 up until page 101, is that correct?
MR PRINSLOO: And the political background appears from page 102 of your application, up and to page 107, is that correct?
MR GREYLING: That's correct, yes.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Greyling, during this incident you were stationed at Nelspruit Security Branch.
MR PRINSLOO: What was the rank?
MR GREYLING: I was a Warrant Officer.
MR PRINSLOO: Evidence has already been led by the previous witness, Mr Gert Visser, that he was the Branch Commander and that Malaza was your colleague at the same branch.
MR GREYLING: That's correct, yes.
MR PRINSLOO: Well during this period of time where you served at the Security Branch in Nelspruit, at an opportunity information was made available that there's a leakage of information to the ANC.
MR GREYLING: That is correct, yes.
MR PRINSLOO: You have already heard the evidence of Mr Visser concerning this, that there were certain documents that were intercepted and that landed in the hands of the ANC.
MR GREYLING: That is correct, yes.
MR PRINSLOO: Some of the documentation that disappeared, could you yourself at a later stage, or that was later found by somebody and it was shown to you, could you identify it as information that was part of the office documentation?
MR GREYLING: Yes, that is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: And that information, concerning that information, did you deal with that information personally at a certain stage?
MR PRINSLOO: And that documentation or information that disappeared from the office, did you plan to destroy it, or what was the idea behind it?
MR GREYLING: Yes, usually it would happen that after it was typed it would then be shredded.
MR PRINSLOO: In this specific incident, who would have been responsible for the shredding of such documentation?
MR GREYLING: It was Mr Malaza.
MR PRINSLOO: In this specific incident, or can you recall where he did the shredding?
MR GREYLING: He said that after the typist typed it she'd put it in a basket and he would then go and shred it afterwards.
MR PRINSLOO: This information on which Mr Visser testified, that was provided to Intelligence and then later taken to Pretoria, did you have a look at it? Did you identify it?
MR GREYLING: Was that now through National Intelligence?
MR GREYLING: Yes, I did look at some of the documentation.
MR PRINSLOO: And you identified it?
MR PRINSLOO: Was that of a secretive nature?
MR PRINSLOO: Did you accompany Mr Visser and Mr Malaza to Pretoria?
MR PRINSLOO: And was Mr Malaza interrogated in Pretoria?
MR PRINSLOO: Who interrogated him?
MR GREYLING: He was taken to Daisy, to the farm Daisy, where Brig Stadler interviewed him, or interrogated him.
MR PRINSLOO: Did they obtain information from Mr Malaza concerning who was involved?
MR PRINSLOO: And who were they?
MR GREYLING: At that stage you said Mr Msibi handles him.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you know who Mr Msibi was at that stage?
MR GREYLING: Because people make use of MK names, I did not specifically know that this is this Mr Msibi.
MR PRINSLOO: Did he identify the person?
MR GREYLING: Later after we gathered more information because of, or from informants, we found out that this is this specific Mr Msibi.
MR PRINSLOO: And did you have any information sources within the Security Branch that could provide you with information concerning the background of Mr Msibi?
MR GREYLING: Yes, we knew people in Swaziland who knew Mr Msibi.
MR PRINSLOO: Because of this information that you got, an action was launched to abduct Mr Msibi from Swaziland.
MR GREYLING: That is correct, yes.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you act on instructions to accompany them on that operation?
MR PRINSLOO: And did you accompany Mr Visser to Swaziland?
MR GREYLING: Yes, I did accompany him.
MR PRINSLOO: In Swaziland, can you tell the Committee were you involved when you took Mr Msibi out of Swaziland?
MR GREYLING: Yes, I was present in Swaziland.
MR PRINSLOO: Were you present when he was abducted?
MR GREYLING: Yes, myself and Gert Visser arrived a little bit later, after they had already had him with them.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you then take Mr Msibi out of Swaziland?
MR PRINSLOO: Very well. Evidence was led that he was then taken to a clubhouse.
MR PRINSLOO: Were you present?
MR PRINSLOO: There's also evidence that this Mr Msibi was interrogated and assaulted.
MR GREYLING: That is correct, Mr Chairperson.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you participate in the interrogation?
MR GREYLING: No, Mr Chairperson, Mr Msibi was handed over to the senior officers present and the junior officers stood outside.
MR PRINSLOO: What was your rank at that stage?
MR GREYLING: I was a Warrant Officer.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you see that he was assaulted?
MR GREYLING: I did not see, but I could hear that they were assaulting him, yes.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you at any stage accompany any person to go to a specific house of which you received the address from Mr Msibi?
MR PRINSLOO: Who did you accompany?
MR GREYLING: I accompanied Mr de Kock to the house where Mr Msibi lived.
MR PRINSLOO: And at that specific house did you find something?
MR GREYLING: Yes, we found a box with wires and things.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you the seize it, take it?
MR PRINSLOO: Did you take it back to the clubhouse?
MR PRINSLOO: Do you know if any further interrogations resulted from this?
MR GREYLING: I assume that the people, or the experts, or the explosives experts would know about that.
MR PRINSLOO: No, I'm talking about the clubhouse, did they follow up with certain interrogations or questioning?
MR PRINSLOO: Did you take part in that?
MR PRINSLOO: After the interrogation was concluded, evidence was led that he was taken to Pretoria.
MR PRINSLOO: There was also evidence that he was detained in the area around Pretoria, were you involved in that?
MR PRINSLOO: And was Mr Msibi later returned to Witrivier in the Eastern Transvaal?
MR GREYLING: Yes, he was then detained according to Section 29.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you interrogate him there?
MR GREYLING: Yes, I did work with him there.
MR PRINSLOO: During that period of time while you interrogated him or worked with him, as you put it, did you assault him?
MR PRINSLOO: Did he provide you with certain information?
MR PRINSLOO: And this information that was distributed by Mr Malaza to the ANC, could you indicate or could you find out what it entailed?
MR GREYLING: No, I couldn't, because I assumed it went to the ANC Headquarters.
MR PRINSLOO: That is now apart from the documentation that you saw?
MR GREYLING: Yes, that is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you have any information that people were recruited by Kompol, who provided information to Mr Malaza to give to the ANC?
MR GREYLING: That is correct, yes.
MR PRINSLOO: Were you involved in the investigation of that case?
MR PRINSLOO: Did you then release Mr Msibi later?
MR PRINSLOO: Did he cooperate with the Security Branch?
MR GREYLING: He was handed over to Gen Buchner and from then on I broke all ties with them.
MR PRINSLOO: Mr Buchner was stationed at Head Office in Pretoria, can you tell us where he was?
MR GREYLING: I'm not quite sure at that stage where he was stationed, I don't know if he was in Natal.
MR PRINSLOO: He was not in the Eastern Transvaal?
MR PRINSLOO: And Mr Greyling, you knew that Mr Msibi was going to be abducted and that it will be an illegal action.
MR GREYLING: Yes, that is correct.
MR PRINSLOO: You never made any information public that he was assaulted at the clubhouse.
MR PRINSLOO: And while he was detained at Witrivier, you also did not make public the information that he was held there.
MR PRINSLOO: Did you do it for any personal gain?
MR PRINSLOO: Did you do it for any malice?
MR PRINSLOO: So you then apply for amnesty for conspiracy to abduction, abduction and also the fact that you did not make known the assault that took place, as well as defeating the ends of justice.
MR PRINSLOO: Or any delicts that may come from this.
MR PRINSLOO: This action of yours, did you see it as in the interests of the country?
MR GREYLING: That is correct, yes.
MR PRINSLOO: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Prinsloo.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Greyling, it seems as if, well if I understand your evidence correctly, that you do agree with Mr de Kock with the version that we've put before the Committee, that at the stage of assault and interrogation, and please correct me if I'm wrong, if I misunderstood, but it seems to me as if there was an initial stage of interrogation and assault where the junior officers were outside, but you could hear that there was some assault. And then you continued with an operation where you accompanied Mr de Kock and Mr de Kock said there may have been another person, you went to the house, from the address that you got you brought certain items back and further assaults took place as well as interrogation.
MR HUGO: You once again stood outside and you did not go into the clubhouse.
MR HUGO: While we are on this topic of the clubhouse, there was certain information that Mr de Kock's recollection was that the clubhouse was more-or-less as big as this room and that it could have been one and a half times the size of this room. Can you recall how big this room was?
MR GREYLING: Mr Chairperson, I do not think it could have been as big as this room, I think it was smaller.
MR HUGO: I do not think it's very important, but ... the last aspect that I think all of us, or not anyone has really testified about, that we need clarity about is the question concerning the weapons that you had with you at that stage. Let me just ask this directly, because he said that he had Uzzi weapons, silencers that they brought from Vlakplaas - or let me put it this way, did you have a weapon with you?
MR GREYLING: No, I went with Mr Visser and we had no weapons.
MR HUGO: Then concerning the presence of senior officers at the scene, is it correct that you had the perception and the impression that this operation was planned from a very high level?
MR GREYLING: That is correct, yes.
MR HUGO: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Hugo. Mr Visser?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
Is your recollection that this operation was launched on that specific day and was completed on that day, or that it was over a period of two days before it was successfully completed?
MR GREYLING: Well we took Malaza to Pretoria the next day, so it could have been the day or the next day that the abduction took place.
MR VISSER: Brig Schoon says that his recollection was that there was an attempt on the first day and they did not succeed and they had to go in the next day again and then only Msibi was brought out. Could that be right?
MR GREYLING: Mr Chairperson, I do not recall it in that way, no.
MR VISSER: Yes, and I would just like to tell you that Brig Schoon's recollection is that that clubhouse is about twice the size of this hall and Gen Buchner was stationed in Pretoria at that stage, I think maybe you forgot it.
MR GREYLING: Yes, that is possibly so.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairperson.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr Cornelius?
MR CORNELIUS: I have no questions, thank you Mr Chair.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ms van der Walt.
MS VAN DER WALT: No questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nel?
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Lamey?
MR LAMEY: No questions, thank you Chair.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAKONDO: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Greyling, you said that whilst you were at the clubhouse the juniors stood outside and seniors were inside.
MR GREYLING: That is correct, yes.
MR MAKONDO: Do you remember the seniors who were inside?
MR GREYLING: It was the people as Brig Stadler, Schoon, Visser, Maj Visser, they were the senior officers present. Mr de Kock was at that stage also as a senior office, that was now for subordinate officers.
MR MAKONDO: Do you recall the juniors who were with you outside?
MR GREYLING: No, I cannot remember them. In the previous application I could identify them and could say yes, they were present.
MR MAKONDO: Do you remember how many were you, those who were outside?
MR GREYLING: Probably five or six.
MR MAKONDO: The people you were with, were they members of your unit?
MR GREYLING: Please repeat your question.
MR MAKONDO: The people you were with outside, were they members of your unit?
MR GREYLING: No, I came from Nelspruit.
MR MAKONDO: So you said you could hear that there was an assault inside.
MR GREYLING: That's correct, yes.
MR MAKONDO: I mean, what did you hear, were there perhaps the screaming?
MR GREYLING: You could hear the sound of slapping like if somebody hits somebody on the back. I just assumed that somebody was slapped. There was a noise. They wanted to get information from this man.
MR MAKONDO: Could you perhaps deduce from what you were hearing, that what kind, whether they were using hands or some type of weapon?
MR GREYLING: No, I would say it would be an open hand.
MR MAKONDO: If there was a belt used, would it sound the same like what you were hearing?
MR GREYLING: I do not know if somebody is beaten on the back or hit with a belt, I don't know. It's possible.
MR MAKONDO: At what stage did Mr Msibi give you the information that led you to his house?
MR GREYLING: That was while he was interrogated in the clubhouse.
MR MAKONDO: No, I'm not clear, was it shortly when you got there or after a certain period when you were at the clubhouse?
MR GREYLING: I would say it was after a while that he provided them with the information. I cannot specifically say if it was an hour, two hours, half an hour, I'm not quite sure.
MR MAKONDO: Was it after or during the interrogation?
MR GREYLING: That is correct, yes.
MR GREYLING: They had to ask him and yes, he would have then provided them with the information.
MR MAKONDO: How long did it take you to go to his house and come back with what you found?
MR GREYLING: Approximately an hour to an hour and fifteen minutes, because it's down the valley.
MR MAKONDO: You said you could identify the documents which proved that Mr Malaza had provided the ANC with information.
MR GREYLING: That is correct, yes.
MR MAKONDO: How did you identify them?
MR GREYLING: What would happen is that when you send your reports to Headquarters, you put a - there's either a signature or a stamp.
MR MAKONDO: So the ones that you received must have been similar, copies of what you think to be the documents of your department?
MR GREYLING: That is correct, yes.
MR MAKONDO: I'm asking you because one of the applicants said that the typing on the documents that they got back was different.
MR PRINSLOO: With respect, Mr Chairman, I don't recall such evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Nor do I. No, no, Mr Makondo.
MR MAKONDO: I'll withdraw that question, Chairperson, perhaps I've got it wrongly.
Do you know Mr Msibi's MK or ANC name in Swaziland?
MR GREYLING: I'm not quite sure, but I think it could be Jabulani, I'm not quite sure.
MR MAKONDO: I'm asking you because you said that you have known of Msibi earlier, because in Swaziland he was using a name Thomas.
MR GREYLING: It is possible, yes.
MR MAKONDO: Is it possible that the Msibi that you thought you know him, could have been a different one?
MR GREYLING: No, I do not believe so, because from the informants, after we confirmed or found out where he worked, they came to us and then came to identify him to us.
MR MAKONDO: When he was in the Eastern Transvaal, after he was taken to Pretoria and back, what information did he provide you with?
MR GREYLING: Mr Chairperson, we usually just sat down and worked with the people from our area, asked about where they, from which machinery they are, we went through photo albums to find out from where the people come from, which machinery specifically.
MR MAKONDO: And what did you do with that information?
MR GREYLING: I put it in writing.
MR MAKONDO: For how long did you stay with him in the Eastern Transvaal?
MR GREYLING: Approximately a month.
MR MAKONDO: And after his release, did you have any contact with him?
MR GREYLING: No, I did not have any further contact with him.
MR MAKONDO: When did you learn about his death?
MR GREYLING: It was a long time afterwards, I cannot specifically say when.
MR MAKONDO: Thank you, Chairperson, that will be all.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAKONDO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Makondo. Ms Patel?
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS PATEL: Thank you, Honourable Chairperson.
Did you notice whether Mr Msibi had leg irons on him at the time that he was brought to the Oshoek border post?
MR GREYLING: No, I cannot recall that.
MS PATEL: Is it possible that he could have had leg irons and you don't recall?
MR GREYLING: I think that the abduction took place very quickly, I do not know that they would have put it on in the vehicle. It's possible, I'm not sure though.
MS PATEL: And do you know whether he was gagged at the time, whether his mouth was taped over?
MR GREYLING: That is correct, I do carry knowledge of that.
MS PATEL: At what stage was this done, can you recall?
MR GREYLING: It had to be during the abduction stage, we were not physically there, we only got there a bit later, but it could have been when they abducted him that they covered his mouth.
MS PATEL: During the time that you worked with him in the Eastern Transvaal, after he was handed over to you from Pretoria, was he ever assaulted by anyone in your presence?
MS PATEL: You were present when his home was searched and the documents and the equipment was found.
MS PATEL: How many of you were present during that search?
MR GREYLING: Mr Chairperson, I can only recall myself and Mr de Kock, I cannot recall that there was anybody else there. I will accept if there was anybody else, or somebody else there, but I can only recall myself and Mr de Kock.
MS PATEL: Can you recall whether any money was found there?
MR GREYLING: No, I do not know of any money that was found.
MS PATEL: Okay, alright. Thank you, Honourable Chairper-son.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS PATEL
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Advocate Bosman?
ADV BOSMAN: I have no questions, thank you Chairperson.
ADV SANDI: Thank you, I don't have a question to ask, Chair, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Any re-examination, Mr Prinsloo?
MR PRINSLOO: No re-examination, thank you Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Greyling, you are excused.
CHAIRPERSON: Are you calling any further evidence, Mr Prinsloo.
MR PRINSLOO: That concludes the evidence for the two applicants, thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Who are we calling? Are you taking the queue Mr Visser or Mr Hugo?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, it's the last of the Vissers that are going to call a witness. I call Brig Schoon.