CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everybody. I apologise to everybody, the intention was to start at ten, but I had commitments this morning which were very important and I had to attend to. I apologise to everybody for having taken your time.
Today, which is the 10th of October 2000, we would hear the applications of Antonie Jagga, application number AM7106/97, Lesizi Michael Jantjie, application number AM7107/97, Colin Anthony Peckinham Robertshaw, amnesty number 7163/97, and Dyele Daniel Thulo, application number AM7715/97.
My name is Motata, I would be chairing this hearing. I would request my Panel Members to do likewise.
MR LAX: Thank you, Chairperson. Ilan Lax, L-a-x, on record, Member of the Amnesty Committee.
MR SIBANYONI: For the record, my name is JB Sibanyoni, I'm a Member of the Amnesty Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, gentlemen. May I request the legal representatives to place themselves on record.
MR VISSER: May it please you, Chairperson and Members of the Committee. Louis Visser, I'm instructed by Wagener Muller. We appear for all four the applicants before you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson. My name is Brian Koopedi, I appear in this matter on behalf of the victims. Chairperson, I wish to state at this point that I'm actually standing in for Adv Malindi, whom I believe will join us as soon as circumstances permit it. Thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: May I, whilst you are still at it, Mr Koopedi, ask who the victims are you are appearing for?
MR KOOPEDI: If it will suffice, Chairperson, I would refer to them as the family of, and not necessarily give you every individual's name.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, give us the family.
MR KOOPEDI: It is the family of Betty Boom, the family of Nomasonto Mashiya, the family of Tex Sejanamane, and lastly, the family of Mbulelo Ngono.
CHAIRPERSON: My I just alert you to this problem that often surfaces, that when victims are referred to the Committee on Reparation and Rehabilitation, normally the want the closest person, it won't just be a wide spectrum. The problem is actually more prominent in that we are at the twilight of our existence, that they don't have the capacity to contact each and every member and see who is the closest. I suppose you can, just whilst we are busy with that, think along those lines and see how we can solve that problem.
MR KOOPEDI: I take that point, Chairperson, and perhaps may I at this stage make this undertaking that we will draw up a list of these relatives and state the type of relationship, the right type of relationship they had with any of the four people mentioned. Shall that assist?
CHAIRPERSON: We shall be indebted to you.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson, I'll do that.
CHAIRPERSON: Anybody from the Committee?
MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, for the record, my name is Zuko Mapoma, I am the Leader of Evidence for the Amnesty Committee.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. Mr Visser, before we commence, may I remind the audience that you would benefit from the translation in Afrikaans, which would be channel 1, English would be channel 2, Sotho, channel 3, Zulu, channel 4 and Xhosa, channel 5. And may I also request everybody present that please, those are in possession of mobile phones, switch them off because they interfere with the sound system, as you can see the engineer sitting over there, he normally complains to me. Please let's comply with that.
Mr Visser, is there anything you want to place on record before you call one of your applicants?
MR VISSER: Chairperson, yes indeed. I must place on record that one of the applicants, Mr Thulo, was taken ill. We were informed of this development only yesterday and the moment we were so informed, we immediately took the liberty of making telephonic contact with yourself to alert you to the problem that he might not be here, although we didn't have fuller information at the time. We thereafter, through my attorney, established that he will not be able to attend these hearings during the course of this week. We asked for a medical certificate to be forwarded to us. I've got one in my possession which I would like to hand to you, from which, Chairperson, it would appear that Mr Thulo suffers from sinus pharyngitis and uncontrolled diabetes and he is apparently under doctor's care until the 12th, Chairperson, if I'm not mistaken, that would be Thursday, and consequently there seems to be little chance of him being here. I'm told that he is in bed and he's not allowed to get out of bed.
That being the case, Chairperson, we, in my respectful submission, would have one of three options. The one would be to postpone the whole hearing until Mr Thulo has recuperated and is able to attend. Alternatively, to continue with the hearings and then there are two scenarios which could considered. One, that at the end of the evidence of the witnesses who are present, that the matter then be postponed, or alternatively, as has occurred in some other amnesty applications where the evidence was sufficient to cover also the position of an absent applicant, that the amnesty application was then dealt with on the basis, without his evidence, on the basis of the evidence of the others.
Obviously there might be victims who might feel that they want to make representations in that regard, understandable, that they would want to see all the persons present. But from the point of view of a pragmatic approach, Chairperson, trying to solve the problem facing us, we would submit that we should continue at this stage with the three applicants that are here. It is a hardship for them to come up to Pretoria, or wherever, and they would like to get it behind them, and that we make the decision as to whether the matter should be postponed part-heard later. That's all I have to place on record at this stage.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser. Mr Koopedi, anything?
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson. What I would say on behalf of the victims, I believe it would be prudent to proceed with this matter in the absence of the fourth applicant, hoping that we would cover some ground with the applicants that are here and depending on their evidence, my feeling is that we might then want to postpone the matter for a further hearing, when the fourth applicant will be well enough to attend that hearing.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Mapoma.
MR MAPOMA: Chairperson, I agree with the proposal that we proceed with the applicants who are available and get their evidence to a finish and then take it from there.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Mapoma. We shall then proceed with this hearing and hear the evidence of the three applicants who are present today. And should it arise, and I wish at some stage, Mr Koopedi, you should advise the victims that should it transpire that their evidence covers most of the aspects, or all of the aspects which Mr Thulo would have testified about, we shall review the position then and end this hearing, and should a need arise that Mr Thulo should also be heard, we shall then postpone to a date which would be suitable to everybody.
And I would, in that regard, contact our offices that should we require to hear Mr Thulo, these proceedings to be held in Bloemfontein, which is nearest to Mr Thulo, because we should also be thinking about his health and not make him travel unnecessarily, but that would arise should we at the conclusion of this hearing, come to that decision.
Thank you very much, Mr Visser.
MR VISSER: As it pleases the Panel, Chairperson. Chairperson, then it seems that the way is clear for me to call the first witness and I would call Mr Jantjie to give evidence. His evidence will appear in your bundle of documents, from page 8 onwards, and I will refer you more fully to that in a moment. Mr Jantjie prefers to address you in Sotho, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: He has no objection to taking the oath.
LESIZI MICHAEL JANTJIE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated. You may proceed, Mr Visser.
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Jantjie, you are an applicant in this matter and you are applying for amnesty for your participation in the incidents to which you will now testify, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chair.
MR VISSER: You signed and filed an amnesty application with the Amnesty Committee, and that appears at page 8 and it runs up to page 16, is that correct?
MR VISSER: Do you confirm the truthfulness and the correctness of the information contained in the amnesty application which I just referred to, subject to the evidence which you will give today?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I'm not sure whether it is translated to the witness in English or in Afrikaans ...
MR VISSER: Yes, it's just occurred to me that he might understand Afrikaans better English and that I might have to speak in Afrikaans, if it's not translated. May I just take instructions?
MR VISSER: I'm told that there is no problem there.
Mr Jantjie, your application form is drafted in Afrikaans, do you understand Afrikaans?
MR VISSER: And do you understand what is written in your application form, as well as in the statement that was drawn on your behalf just prior to these hearings?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: At page 15A, to 16K, a statement has been included, which was drafted by your legal representatives prior to the first occasion on which your amnesty application was supposed to be heard, is that right?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And apart from one or two mistakes which we will point out, do you also confirm the truthfulness and the correctness of the contents of that statement?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, I do, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Are you still a member of the South African Police Service?
MR JANTJIE: No, I am no longer a member of the SAPS.
MR VISSER: Mr Jantjie, in your application form to the TRC, in answer to questions posed in paragraph 7(a) and 7(b) at page 8 of the bundle, you stated: "Not applicable" to the questions whether you were a member or a supporter or whatever of a political party and to what capacity that was, you said: "Not applicable", is that correct?
MR VISSER: You informed me that you want that changed because according you, that is not entirely correct and you state at page 15A, that you want that amended to read
"National Party" (and) Supporter"
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Now at the time we all know that Coloured people were not entitled to vote, in 1985, the question is, why is it that you want to amend this part of your amnesty application? How do you see the matter today?
MR JANTJIE: May you please repeat the question for me.
MR VISSER: Well, were you a supporter of the National Party?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, I would say so, because I was working under the National Party Government.
MR VISSER: Is it from that perspective that you think that it is more accurate to say that you were in fact a supporter, although you could not vote for the National Party, or any other party?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You have seen the documents called: "Die Algemene Agtergrond tot Amnestie Aansoeke", which has served for the past year or so before Sub-Committees on Amnesty, pertaining to the position of policemen and other issues, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR SIBANYONI: Excuse me, Mr Visser, may I just get clarity on this. You stated to him that Coloured people were not allowed to vote, are you indicating that Mr Jantjie is a Coloured person?
MR VISSER: Well, Mr Jantjie, were you able to vote in the previous regime?
MR LAX: No, no, you're missing the thrust of the question.
MR VISSER: Oh I see, it's not on record that he ...(intervention)
MR LAX: Sorry, Mr Jantjie, what is your - for want of a better word, tribal origin? Are you a Coloured person, are you a Sesotho person?
MR LAX: You're a Xhosa. Thank you, that clarifies the matter.
MR VISSER: Sorry, I didn't understand the question.
As far as this General Background document is concerned, are there portions of that document that you are not able to confirm?
MR VISSER: Are those the portions concerning Botswana and Swaziland, of which you have no knowledge?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, that's correct.
MR VISSER: And do you ask the Committee to incorporate the balance of that document in your evidence, as pertaining to your situation as well?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, may I ask that this again serves as Exhibit A, without the obligation of handing it in? Various copies are lying all over the place.
CHAIRPERSON: I think we've got plenty by now.
MR VISSER: And in fact, one of my Chairmen, I remember, has pleaded with me not to hand it in again, because he's got so many copies of it already.
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, even when I want to write my memos, I think I have enough copies to refer to.
Now first of all, the - my learned attorney has just drawn my attention, the medical certificate which we handed in on behalf of Mr Thulo, could that perhaps for the sake of the record, be marked Exhibit B? I've already marked it.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, it shall be reflected as Exhibit B.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
Mr Jantjie, in paragraph 2 at page 15B, you deal with the issue of informers, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, that's correct.
MR VISSER: And you state the principle that you believe that the identity of informers should not be divulged, but in this case you did divulge the identity of four informers of the South African Police, is that correct?
MR VISSER: And that was because they were in fact also the victims in this matter, is that not correct?
MR VISSER: As far as the other informers that you refer to and that you will refer to in your evidence, are concerned, you would prefer not to divulge their identities, for obvious reasons, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, that's correct.
MR VISSER: Now Mr Jantjie, we now that you were in the Security Police during 1985, where were you stationed?
MR JANTJIE: I was stationed at Ladybrand.
MR VISSER: Oh, I keep on referring to 1985, that was last week's amnesty application, it's 1987.
MR JANTJIE: It was Lieut Robertshaw.
MR VISSER: And who was your direct Commander? Was it him, or was it someone else?
MR JANTJIE: No, he was the second Commander. My first Commander was Capt Fouche.
MR VISSER: He was the overall Commander. Alright. And what were your duties as member of the Security Branch at Ladybrand?
MR JANTJIE: My main duty was to gather information about the people, those people who were alleged to be fighting for liberation from Lesotho.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I'm wondering whether I could ask, through the Chair, to lead the witness until we come to the relevant facts, and if my learned friend Mr Koopedi thinks that there's a question which, for reasons known to himself, that I should not lead, then perhaps he should just mention it to save a little time, Chairperson, because I'm leading the witness and it's taking a lot of time on really matters that are not really contentious.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, I have no comment.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay. Then you do.
MR VISSER: Thank you, but somebody will stop me if I step out of bounds.
CHAIRPERSON: Please feel free Mr Koopedi, if you so feel that there is something that is really impacting on what you want to know or the victims would want to know.
MR KOOPEDI: I'll do so, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed Mr Visser.
MR VISSER: As it pleases you, Mr Chairman.
Now Mr Jantjie, is it correct that you and the other applicant here, Mr Jagga, concerned yourself mainly with situations in Lesotho, where you monitored inter alia the activities of members of the ANC and MK, the African National Congress and Umkhonto weSizwe, the BCM, Black Consciousness Movement, the PAC, Pan Africanist Congress movement, and SACTO, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And is it also correct that as far as the ANC and MK were concerned, in 1987 there were some 30 members of that organisation active in Lesotho?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Is it also correct that you made use of various informers to give you information regarding the activities of these people that you were monitoring?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And you yourselves went into Lesotho, virtually on a daily basis, where you visited bars and public places and spoke to people in order to attempt to gain information, is that right?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: At one stage your told me and you said that you and Jagga pretended that you were criminals trying to evade the law in South Africa, and that you used as a cover, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Now what were you told by way of information of informers, about Ms Betty Boom? Can you just tell the Committee.
MR JANTJIE: The information that we got from our informers was that there was a member of the ANC who was called Betty Boom and Betty Boom was one of the MK people who was supposed to come and launch attacks before Xmas in 1987, in South Africa.
MR VISSER: Was she attached to an MK cell or unit in Lesotho?
MR JANTJIE: According to the information that we got, she belonged to a certain cell that was operating in the Free State.
MR VISSER: Who was the leader of that unit?
MR JANTJIE: We were told that she was the leader of that cell.
MR VISSER: Alright. Now you later heard that there were at least two other members connected to that cell, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And we will come to them, they were Nomasonto Mashiya, M-a-s-h-i-y-a and Tax, T-a-x, Sejanamane, S-e-j-a-n-a-m-a-n-e, is that correct?
MR VISSER: Alright, we'll return to them later. Now what other information, if any, did you obtain regarding Ms Boom?
MR JANTJIE: The other information that we got later was that Betty Boom was not satisfied within the ANC, she had some financial problems.
MR VISSER: Alright. And what did you decide to do, you and Mr Jagga?
MR JANTJIE: We used that opportunity, we tried to persuade her to come and work with us, because we wanted her to help us with information that we needed.
MR VISSER: Did you consider that to be part of your normal duties which you performed under instructions from your senior officers, to try to recruit informers?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: So how did you go about it, Mr Jantjie?
MR JANTJIE: We went to the place where Betty was living, we went there for several days. We were trying to get information about other people who were living with her, so that when the opportunity availed itself we can be able to approach her.
MR VISSER: Did you first ...(intervention)
MR LAX: Sorry, what do you mean you went to her place? Did you keep it under surveillance, did you monitor it, did you go inside, did you talk to her? What do you mean?
MR JANTJIE: We did not enter the place where she was staying, we just put her under surveillance.
MR LAX: And? You said you got information about people that lived there. Did you put everybody in that premises under surveillance?
MR LAX: Well then tell us what you did.
MR JANTJIE: After some few days we managed to follow her from her home. We were pretended to be other MK people. In that way we managed to approach her and we talked to her, we asked her to come and work with us ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: Yes, just before you get there, can we just go back. Did you first keep the house under observation, Mr Jantjie, you and Mr Jagga?
MR JANTJIE: For a few days. I cannot recall how many days, but I think it could be two to three days.
MR VISSER: Alright. And did she receive any visitors at her home, that you saw?
MR JANTJIE: No, we did not see people going to her place.
MR VISSER: And you gave evidence just now that you followed her into, I think you said into town, is that into Maseru? Where she did meet people.
MR JANTJIE: Yes, she was staying outside Maseru.
MR LAX: You said you were checking who else lived there, who else lived there?
MR JANTJIE: We did not want to find out who else was staying with her, we just wanted to other people who would visit her from time to time.
MR VISSER: As far as you ...(intervention)
Didn't anyone work there for her?
MR JANTJIE: No, as far as I know.
MR LAX: So she lived alone at that house and she was the only person there? That's your observation.
MR JANTJIE: Yes, according to our observation, that's true.
MR LAX: Thanks. Carry on, Mr Visser.
Was your observation a 24-hour observation, or did you just go there during parts of the day or parts of the night?
MR JANTJIE: We were not observing her 24 hours, we would only go there and observe for about two to three hours a day.
MR VISSER: Now at some stage you made an approach to her, is that correct?
MR VISSER: And you told the Committee that you pretended to be other MK members.
MR VISSER: And did she believe that cover which you put out to her?
MR VISSER: And what transpired thereafter, what did you talk about, what did she tell you?
MR LAX: Sorry, before you go there, what did you tell her, where were you from, where had you been trained? What did you tell her to win her over?
MR JANTJIE: We used some tactics at that time, those were the tactics that we used when we were trying to recruit people. We had ANC documents and we were reading those documents, we know how to recruit people into the ANC. So we made her believe that we were ANC members.
MR LAX: Sir, I would like you to tell me what you told her, not what documents you read her. You see, you said to us that you were MK members, you pretended to her that you were MK members. Well in order to do that you must have told her that you had trained at a certain place, that you knew certain people. What did you tell her?
MR JANTJIE: We explained to Betty that we were the MK members and we were there to help her to launch attacks in the Free State.
MR LAX: Well didn't you explain to her where you were from? Didn't you say who your Commanders were? Surely that's something you would have had to tell her.
MR JANTJIE: It was easy to recruit a person and it was easy for us to recruit Betty. We used the tactics that we knew that she will believe us.
MR LAX: Well why should she believe you, that's what I'm trying to understand and so far you haven't given me, not even one good reason why anyone would believe you, other than that you've read ANC documents. I want to understand your strategy.
MR JANTJIE: At that time we were working with the ANC people, so we knew the tactics that they used in recruiting people.
MR LAX: But you see you didn't have to recruit her, she was an MK member. It wasn't a matter of recruiting someone else to MK, this is a matter of going to a Commander of a unit, convincing her that you're an MK person to win her confidence first, convincing her that you're part of a structure that's going to help her. How did you do that? We're not talking about recruiting people to the ANC or to MK.
MR JANTJIE: We had information that Betty had financial problems.
CHAIRPERSON: You know before then, what my Committee Member wants to know from you is that what tactics did you use to convince her that you were also ANC or MK members? What tactics did you use? To use your word.
MR JANTJIE: It was just to explain to her that we were MK people, we were sent to come and work with her in her unit, from Lesotho.
MR VISSER: And she believed that?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, she did, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: You spoke about the financial problems, what did she tell you?
MR JANTJIE: She told us that the money that she received from the headquarters was very little and she could not manage to address her problems.
MR VISSER: The place where she lived in was, what kind of a residence was that, can you tell us?
MR JANTJIE: The place could be about five kilometres from Maseru, just outside Maseru ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: Mr Jantjie, was it a flat, was it a house, what was it?
MR JANTJIE: She rented a house.
MR VISSER: Alright. Now you also told the Committee just now that you told her that you were sent to work with her, what did you say to her about financial support?
MR JANTJIE: We explained to her that we have enough money, whenever she needs money we will help her.
MR VISSER: Did that assist in convincing her to believe you?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did she in fact after some time, tell you about how she felt about the ...(intervention)
MR LAX: Mr Visser, sorry. These sorts of questions - you better rather ask questions that aren't leading, in the sense that this is the meat of the matter and I would personally prefer you to deal with him in the normal way now.
MR VISSER: Alright. Thank you, Chairperson.
Now did she tell you anything about her attitude to the struggle?
MR JANTJIE: Amongst other things that she said was that they were planning that in December 1986 they were planning to launch attacks in the Free State.
MR VISSER: Mr Jantjie, what I really want to know is, was she happy with her situation?
MR JANTJIE: She seemed to be a person who was not satisfied.
MR VISSER: Now did she tell you why she wasn't satisfied? Apart from the finances, was there anything else?
MR JANTJIE: According to me she looked like a person who was longing to go home.
MR VISSER: Did she tell you so?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, she told us she was longing to go back home.
MR VISSER: Alright. Did you then continue - at some stage did you tell her who you really were?
MR VISSER: And will you tell us how that came about.
MR JANTJIE: No, we did not ...(intervention)
INTERPRETER: I beg your pardon Chairperson, may I request that the applicant does not speak to the mike.
MR LAX: Can you move the mike a little bit away, just speak a little bit more loudly, because the microphone distorts when you speak too close to it.
MR LAX: Just repeat the question please, Mr Visser.
MR VISSER: Let me ask you this again. At some stage or another you revealed your true identity as members of the Security Force, to Betty Boom, is that correct?
MR VISSER: Why did you do that?
MR JANTJIE: Because we wanted to reveal our true identity, so that she could be free. We wanted her to know that she's working with the people from the Security Police, because we realised that she was happy to be working in the ANC.
MR VISSER: So is what you're saying is that you managed to recruit her as an informer?
MR LAX: Sorry, just before you go on.
Why was she unhappy about working in the ANC? What was she unhappy about? The ANC, that is.
MR JANTJIE: It seems as if she had financial problems and she could not address some of her problems.
MR LAX: What were these financial problems?
MR JANTJIE: She said that when she was supposed to pay the rent she would not have enough money, sometimes she had to wait long for the money from the ANC.
MR JANTJIE: That's the only thing that I remember, Chairperson.
MR LAX: So the only problem was she couldn't pay her rent and the money took a long time to come from the ANC?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: And that was the reason why she didn't want to work for the ANC anymore?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, she looked like a person who wanted to withdraw from the ANC.
MR LAX: No, I'm not asking you what you thought she looked like, I want to know what she told you in your discussion with her.
MR JANTJIE: That's all that I remember, Chairperson.
MR LAX: Yes. So she wanted to go home, she had financial problems and therefore she wanted to leave the ANC?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: And that's why you then exposed yourself to her and let her know that you were members of the South African Security Forces, and then you recruited her?
MR JANTJIE: We were going to reveal our true identity, Chairperson, as time goes on.
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: Sorry Mr Visser, I have interrupted you. I just needed to get clarity on these issues.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
MR SIBANYONI: Can I also try to get clarity on this. You said she was living in Maseru and you also told her that you were from Lesotho, in other words you were also from the neighbourhood. Did I understand you correctly?
MR JANTJIE: No, we told her that we were the MK people who were being deployed to Lesotho in Maseru.
MR SIBANYONI: But deployed from where?
MR JANTJIE: It was obvious that we were deployed from Lusaka or from any other MK camp in the African States.
MR SIBANYONI: Okay, thank you.
MR LAX: You see, that's not good enough, with the greatest of respect. We don't want to know generalities, what did you tell her? In order to win someone like Betty Boom over, you would have had to give her specific information that would satisfy her. What did you tell her?
MR JANTJIE: Chairperson, I'm trying to tell the truth here and this is what I've written in these papers before me here.
MR LAX: I'm not interested in what you wrote in your papers, I want to know what you can remember. That's the purpose of testifying, is to tell us what you can remember. Now what did you tell her to convince her that you were an MK member, where did you come from? It's really quite simple.
MR JANTJIE: What I've already said is what I remember. If there was something else that I know, I would have written it here and I would have told you about it.
MR LAX: So you told her you were an MK member and in the vaguest possible terms, you came from somewhere in exile, Tanzania, Angola, Zambia, you're not really sure what you told her, but it was just something along those lines? You cannot remember the specifics of what you told her. Is that what you're saying?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson, because what we were discussing with her made her to believe us.
MR LAX: You see, that's your evidence and I've heard it a few times already, but the problem is that in order to convince someone who's a Commander of an MK cell that you are somebody that she can trust, you've got to convince her that you come from a certain place with certain orders to join her in a certain structure. I mean, if I was coming to you as a member of the Security Branch, I'd have to convince you that I came from a certain police station, with orders from a certain person to come and join your police station. Not so?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, that is correct.
MR LAX: Yes, so it's that kind of information I'm asking you. How did you convince her?
MR JANTJIE: Chairperson, I have already explained that we talked to her and we convinced her and she agreed to join us. If there was something else, I would have written it on this paper. In other words, what I'm saying is that I do not remember the words that I used when I spoke to her on that day.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Visser.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson.
Now I think I've asked you this before, but is it correct that she was then willing, she declared herself willing to become an informer and to work with the Security Police, at some stage?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: How were you to make contact with her in the future?
MR JANTJIE: We agreed that we would use the telephone, that is her neighbour's telephone.
MR VISSER: Did she have her own telephone? I'm talking about Ms Betty Boom, did she have a telephone the house?
MR JANTJIE: No, because - it seems as if she did not have her own telephone, because every time we tried to call her, the people who were answering the phone would say that we should call again after a minute or so.
MR VISSER: Did you give her telephone numbers of yourselves, in case she wanted to make contact with you?
MR JANTJIE: I do not remember, Chairperson, but I think we were the people who were supposed to call her.
MR VISSER: Alright. Now were contacts made with her after she was recruited as an informer?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, we did, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did you receive any information from her which you could use?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, that's correct.
MR VISSER: Will you tell the Committee, without revealing the name of any person, what this information was about.
MR JANTJIE: Amongst other things that she said to us she gave information concerning the MK people who have entered the Republic of South Africa, who were then living in Cape Town, and there were also other people, one or two people who were operating from Bloemfontein.
MR VISSER: And what happened as a result of this information that you received?
MR JANTJIE: We wrote letters from our station to those people where she said there were people operating there, and that resulted in some of those people being arrested.
MR VISSER: In which places were people arrested, in which towns?
MR JANTJIE: I remember in Cape Town and Bloemfontein people were arrested there.
MR VISSER: Now when you received the information which led to the arrests in Cape Town and in Bloemfontein, was Ms Boom then registered as a registered informer of the Security Police, with Head Office, or what was the position?
MR JANTJIE: She was not yet registered, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: How long did it take to register a person normally?
MR JANTJIE: The time was not important, Chairperson, what was important was the person's performance, whether the person was giving enough information and the quality of the information that a person would give.
MR VISSER: Let me ask you this way then. After - the information which she gave you, how long after she had been recruited did she give you this information?
MR JANTJIE: It could be a few days, but more than a week.
MR VISSER: Alright, Was ...(intervention)
MR LAX: Sorry, did you say a few days, not more than a week, or a few days more than a week? What do you mean by that? Either it's a few days or it's a week or it's more than a week.
MR JANTJIE: I would say a week, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Now what happened thereafter, as far as Ms Boom was concerned?
MR JANTJIE: She kept staying in Maseru and as time went by she told us about some of her comrades who were living in Maseru.
MR JANTJIE: Following that information that she gave us about some of her comrades, we managed to approach those people and our intention was to recruit those people, because Betty was now becoming aware that the ANC was aware of her dealings with us.
MR VISSER: How did you learn about that?
MR JANTJIE: She told us, and apart from that there were other people that we were using to follow a certain person in Maseru.
MR VISSER: Now you're talking about informers, Mr Jantjie, is that right?
MR LAX: Sorry, sorry, who was this other person that you were following in Maseru?
MR JANTJIE: To protect those people I will request that I don't reveal their names.
MR LAX: No, no, you told us that you were following someone else in Maseru and that you were using these informers as well to follow someone else, by telling us who you were following, you're not going to reveal any informer source.
MR JANTJIE: I have already said that in order to protect the lives of these people I would request that I don't reveal their names.
CHAIRPERSON: We understood that you would not reveal names of your sources, that is the informers, but now you said you were following another person, is that a source or not? An informer?
MR JANTJIE: Chairperson, may you please repeat your question.
CHAIRPERSON: You said you would not reveal other names of the informers, other than the ones you have mentioned here that you would reveal to us, now you have just mentioned that you were following another person, what I want to know from you is, the person you were following, was that an informer or a person you were suspecting of something?
MR JANTJIE: The person that we were following was Betty Boom.
MR LAX: No, no, it can't possibly be, with the greatest of respect. Let me recap for you, your evidence so far is this, she told you that she suspected the ANC was becoming aware of her contact with you and then you went on to say: "And we also learnt from other sources" and you learnt from those other sources in the course of following another person, not Betty Boom. That was your evidence. What did you mean by that, that's what we're trying to understand.
MR JANTJIE: Chairperson, I'm referring to one person that is Betty Boom. We knew Betty Boom from the information that we got from other sources.
MR LAX: Yes, but please Sir, we're in a situation now where you've already recruited Betty Boom, the issue that comes up now has got nothing to do with following her around, she's your source, you've already told us she gave you information upon which other people were arrested. So it's not that you have to follow her around, the issue then becomes that there's a concern that the ANC are becoming aware of her contact with you and we are interrogating how you came to know that, and you've told us that you came to know that because she told you that they were worried about her and other people told you, and the other people told you this in the course of you following another person. That was your evidence. So all we're trying to find out is, who was the other person you were following in the course of which you then learnt that the ANC were worried about Betty Boom's contact with you. Is there anything you don't understand so far?
MR JANTJIE: I do understand, Chairperson. I have already explained that we knew Betty Boom from the information that we got from other sources and after we have recruited Betty Boom, we did not go back to our source and instruct our source to stop following Betty Boom. So our source continued following Betty Boom and giving us information about Betty Boom.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Visser, you may probably succeed.
MR VISSER: Yes Chairperson, there's an obvious problem here. I can tell you that because I've consulted with this witness. With your leave, may I revert to Afrikaans and see whether that doesn't solve the problem, Chairperson.
MR LAX: But you see, with the greatest of respect, the evidence has been translated from English into Sesotho and it's going into his ears in Sesotho.
MR VISSER: Yes, but I can't check that evidence, I don't know, Chairperson. There's an obvious problem. May I go to Afrikaans.
CHAIRPERSON: Yes certainly, it's your case Mr Visser.
Mr Jantjie, you say that at some stage Betty Boom told you that the ANC had become suspicious, is that correct?
MR VISSER: Now I don't hear anything.
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did you also receive that same information from any other source?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Was this from informers of yours?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did you discuss this matter with Betty Boom?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, we discussed that with Betty Boom, about what she told us, not what we heard from other sources.
MR VISSER: And what did you think would happen? What was your discussion about?
MR JANTJIE: We thought that because there was that suspicion it could happen that the people who were working with her would report her to the Headquarters of the ANC.
MR VISSER: And what did you decide you should do then?
MR JANTJIE: We decided that we would have to get these other people who were working with her, so that we can also try to recruit them, so that if there's anything that they knew about Betty, they would not in a better position that they could report that to their Headquarters.
MR VISSER: Very well Mr Jantjie, what happened then?
MR JANTJIE: We talked to Betty and we told her that we'll take her to Ladybrand.
MR VISSER: Why did you want to do that?
MR JANTJIE: So that we could be able to get those other people, we wanted to recruit these other people so that they could not be of danger to her.
MR VISSER: So was there actually two reasons why you wanted to take her to Ladybrand?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: For her security and to see whether you could recruit the other members?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What did Betty Boom think about this plan?
MR JANTJIE: She agreed to that plan.
MR VISSER: And how did you decide you would transport her to Ladybrand?
MR JANTJIE: We decided that we'll come to her place, we are going to return as if we are taking her by force, so that if there was anybody who would be able to see us with her, it should appear that she did that under duress.
MR VISSER: That she was abducted?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: This plan of yours, did you discuss it with anyone else?
MR JANTJIE: It was myself, Capt Robertshaw, Tony Jagga and Daniel Thulo.
MR VISSER: Did you receive instructions to go ahead with this plan?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Who gave you approval or instruction?
MR JANTJIE: It was Capt Robertshaw.
MR VISSER: And the people you have mentioned previously, were those the persons who then went to fetch Betty Boom in Lesotho?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Where did you enter Lesotho, did you cross the river or?
MR JANTJIE: No, we went through the Maseru border.
MR VISSER: And where did you find Betty Boom?
MR JANTJIE: According to our arrangements we were supposed to fetch her at her place, or somewhere near her place.
MR VISSER: So where did you find her?
MR JANTJIE: We found her not far from her home. That place could be a distance from here when I am sitting and the next street here.
MR VISSER: Did you pick her up or what was the position?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, we did, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did she carry anything with her?
MR JANTJIE: She only had her bag.
MR VISSER: And where did you go to then?
MR JANTJIE: We crossed with her into the Republic of South Africa through the Maseru border gate and we went to Ladybrand.
MR VISSER: Was it easy for you in those days to move through the border post as Security Police officers?
MR VISSER: Were you and Mr Jagga known to the border post guards?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And did you take Betty Boom through the border without any trouble to Ladybrand?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And in the Ladybrand region, where did you take Betty Boom to?
MR JANTJIE: We went to a certain farm outside Ladybrand, it can be 20 kilometres from Ladybrand.
MR VISSER: What did you use that farm for?
MR JANTJIE: That farm was used by the Security Police at that time.
MR VISSER: I'm told, Chairperson, that I'm asking the questions while there's still an interpretation going on, so I'm going to go a little slower.
MR LAX: The question was, what was the farm used for, not by whom was it used.
MR JANTJIE: It was the first time that I go to that farm, that is the day we went there with Betty.
MR VISSER: Was the farm used as a safehouse, Mr Jantjie?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Very well. You then went to this farm, what happened at this farm?
MR JANTJIE: At the farm, from this newspaper that we got from Betty we learnt that there was somebody who was working with her, known by the name of Nomasonto. She explained to us the place where we could get this person in villages outside Maseru. So we decided that we should go and fetch Nomasonto Mashiya to come and stay with Betty at the farm, so that we can convince her to work with us.
MR VISSER: I beg your pardon, I was listening to the other translation. Who proposed that Nomasonto be fetched?
MR JANTJIE: That is Betty Boom.
MR VISSER: What was the purpose of fetching her?
MR JANTJIE: We wanted to recruit her, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What happened afterwards?
MR JANTJIE: After that myself and Daniel Thulo, we went to that place outside Maseru and when we arrived there we found her at that place. We explained to her that we had been sent by Betty Boom, she has asked us to go and fetch her and take her to Ladybrand where there are things that she wanted to talk about with her.
MR VISSER: And what was the reaction of Nomasonto?
MR JANTJIE: She agreed. She went with us together with a young boy who could be two years old.
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And this operation, did you execute it under instruction of anyone? This is now yourself and Thulo.
MR JANTJIE: Everything that we were doing at that time we would inform Capt Robertshaw, so I would say we got instructions from him.
MR VISSER: And did you then go to the farm with Nomasonto?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What happened there?
MR JANTJIE: At the farm she met Betty Boom and we had already agreed before that that Betty would assist us in convincing Nomasonto, so that we could be able to recruit her.
MR VISSER: And did this happen then, did she convince her?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: How long after you had taken Betty to the farm did this particular operation happen?
MR JANTJIE: If I remember well, it was after a day.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, I'm now told that I'm causing great confusion here. It seems that I'm asking my next question before the Afrikaans has been translated, so perhaps I'm causing more problems by now speaking Afrikaans. My attorney keeps on tugging my jacket here and saying to me: "You're going too fast, you're going too fast."
MR LAX: I can't notice any discernible problem at all from my side. The witness is ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: Could we ask the Afrikaans Interpreter whether I'm interfering with his translation?
CHAIRPERSON: Is your translation being interfered with?
MR LAX: He's putting his thumbs up to say there's no problems.
SOTHO INTERPRETER: No, Chairperson. I would request that Mr Visser be slow, because I have to wait for the Afrikaans translation in order to continue.
MR LAX: Okay, the Sotho Interpreter is saying can you slow down a little bit, because he's actually waiting for what you're saying in Afrikaans to be translated to him into English and then he's then asking the question. It might be easier if you just ask the question in English.
MR VISSER: Thank you, I think let me go back to that.
Okay, you say that it was a day later - did you say a day later after you took Betty Boom to the farm that you fetched Nomasonto, was that what you said?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And you also told us, just to summarise your evidence, that beforehand Betty Boom said that she would help to convince Nomasonto to become an informer and that is exactly what she did, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: How long did it take before Nomasonto agreed to become an informer of the Security Branch?
MR JANTJIE: It took her only one day, because the following day she had already agreed with Betty.
MR VISSER: Alright. What happened thereafter - perhaps I should ask you first, what happened to the child of Nomasonto?
MR JANTJIE: Following our discussions between ourselves and Nomasonto, Nomasonto decided that the child should be taken home, that is, where she was from. That was in Vereeniging or Vanderbijlpark, I cannot recall properly.
MR VISSER: Yes, I see in the papers that she came from Sebokeng, but be that as it may, what was then arranged?
MR JANTJIE: We asked two of my co-workers, that is Tsolo and Mokonjulwa, Nomasonto wrote a letter and she directed them where the place is they should go in Sebokeng and she gave them the names of the people who were staying at that place. And they did that, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Who were the people who stayed at that address, can you remember?
MR JANTJIE: I do not remember, but I remember that they were Nomasonto's parents.
MR VISSER: Did you, at that time in 1987, read what she stated in the note?
MR JANTJIE: No, I did not, the people who read that letter were Tsolo and Mokonjulwa.
MR VISSER: So you don't know what was in that note?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, I would say I don't know, Chairperson.
MR LAX: Could I just ask something here. Why didn't you read the note?
MR JANTJIE: It was obvious that she was telling her parents that she was sending the child to them.
MR LAX: But you were her handler, isn't that so?
MR JANTJIE: It can happen that my co-workers read the letter, but I did not personally read the letter.
MR LAX: Just answer my question. Were you her handler?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, that's correct, Chairperson.
MR LAX: Well here's someone who's only just agreed to become an informer for you, surely you might have been worried that she'd say something untoward in that letter, that might give the game away. How did you know that?
MR JANTJIE: I have already explained, Chairperson, that maybe some of my co-workers did read the letter, but I personally did not read the letter.
MR LAX: Yes, but your co-workers weren't briefed about her, you were the one who knew everything about her.
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, that does not mean it's only myself who knew everything that was happened there, because I've already explained that I was working with Jagga, Robertshaw and Thulo.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Visser.
MR VISSER: And as far as you know, was the child then taken away in good health by the two people that you mention at page 15G, in paragraph 30, Mr Tsolo and Mokonjulwa, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What happened thereafter, Mr Jantjie?
MR JANTJIE: While still at the farm we received information from Betty Boom again, that there is another person who was working with her and his name was Tax Sejanamane. She said that we should also go and fetch him.
MR VISSER: Did she tell you where to fetch him from? What his address was.
MR JANTJIE: She explained as she did with Nomasonto.
MR VISSER: And what happened then? Incidentally, how long was this after Nomasonto arrived on the farm?
MR JANTJIE: I think now we are on our third day, because all these things happened a day after one another.
MR VISSER: And perhaps just to make it clear, how long in total, do you recall, was Ms Betty Boom on the farm before she was taken back to Lesotho?
MR JANTJIE: She stayed for a period of a week.
MR VISSER: Of a week, is that what you say?
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson, I couldn't hear the answer.
Alright, the information is now received about where Tax Sejanamane can be found, and what happened then?
MR JANTJIE: Betty called Tax in Maseru and she explained to him about the people who would come to him the following day. She told him that he should go with those people when they arrive at his place.
MR VISSER: How did she call him? Was it by telephone, Mr Jantjie?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, she telephoned him, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Okay. And did she give him any description of you, or whatever?
MR VISSER: What descriptions did she give him?
MR JANTJIE: She described the car that we'll be travelling with and the way that he'll be approached ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: Mr Chairman, I must apologise, the next sentence in paragraph 33 at page 15G, is a clear draughtsman's mistake, because it makes no sense in the context of the evidence. I would ask you just to strike out that first sentence
"Ons het toe besluit om weer voor te gee dat daar 'n ontvoering was"
is clearly wrong in the context here.
What happened thereafter, after she had spoken to him and given him the descriptions, what happened then?
MR JANTJIE: The next day myself, Jagga, Robertshaw and Thulo went to that place, that is the place where we have agreed with Betty Boom that we would meet Tax at.
MR VISSER: And did you find him there?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, we found him there and we explained to him that we were sent by Betty Boom to him and then he came with us to the car.
MR VISSER: What was his initial reaction when he saw the four of you arriving there?
MR JANTJIE: He did not have any suspicion until we arrived at the farm.
MR VISSER: Alright. And what happened on the farm?
MR JANTJIE: When we arrived at the farm he realised that we were not the people who were working for the ANC and he became worried and he was angered by the situation that he found himself in.
MR VISSER: Yes, what happened?
MR JANTJIE: We tried to explain to him that - we gave him the reason why we did what we did to him, we wanted him to work with us and then he understood.
MR VISSER: And did he also see Nomasonto and Betty Boom on the farm?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did they speak with each other?
MR VISSER: And you say that he agreed to work with you as an informer?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, Chairperson, again we were assisted by Betty Boom.
MR VISSER: How long did it take before this happened?
MR JANTJIE: It took a day to agree to work with us, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Were any of these people assaulted by you or by any other person that you know of, or tortured?
MR VISSER: So what did you then decide to do now that the three members of that unit that you knew of, were all, apparently, informers of yourselves, what did you then decide to do?
MR JANTJIE: We decided that since we have agreed that they will work with us, we'll take them back to Maseru in Lesotho and we agreed that they will give us every information about the ANC people in South Africa, and then we requested that they should give that information to Betty Boom and Betty Boom will be the person who would liaise with me and Mr Jagga.
MR VISSER: And what - did you in fact take them back?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, we took them back to Lesotho.
MR VISSER: Who were the persons that took them back?
MR VISSER: No, who took Betty Boom and the others back to Lesotho?
MR JANTJIE: It was myself and Mr Jagga.
MR VISSER: And did you go through the border post again at Maseru?
MR VISSER: And where did you drop them off?
MR JANTJIE: We left them at the taxi rank near the Pitso ground.
MR VISSER: Alright. And was it all there these people, Betty Boom, Nomasonto and Tax Sejanamane?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Yes. And you already stated that when you took them back it was a week after you first took Betty Boom out of Lesotho, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Did you part with any money?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, we gave money to Betty Boom. We gave her 250, if I still remember well.
MR VISSER: Now just on the issue of the money, was this the only time that you gave Betty Boom money, and when I say you I mean you or Jagga, or were there other occasions as well when she was paid money by you?
MR JANTJIE: If I remember well, when we first met with her in Maseru, there is money that we gave to her, although I do not remember the exact amount.
MR VISSER: All I am asking you, Mr Jantjie, is did you give money to her on more than one occasion?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Can you remember today on how many occasions?
MR JANTJIE: At that time we would give an informer 250, not more than that.
MR VISSER: But do you remember on how many occasions you gave her money of any amount?
MR JANTJIE: I think we gave her money on three occasions.
MR VISSER: Alright. Now you, just to make sense of the sequence of events, Betty Boom and her two members of her unit are now back in Lesotho, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And soon thereafter you obtained information about someone else, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: How long after you took Betty Boom and her members back to Lesotho did you get this information?
MR JANTJIE: It could be one to two days, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And what was the information?
MR JANTJIE: We received information that there was a person by the name of KK, who was the member of the ANC, and he stayed near the National University of Lesotho.
MR VISSER: Did you receive any information about what KK was doing?
MR JANTJIE: The information that we had at that time about this person made it obvious to us that KK was one of the people who were deployed to the Eastern or the Western Cape Machinery.
MR JANTJIE: That's correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: This person, KK, is he Mr Mbulelo Ngono?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: So when you got that information, what did you do?
MR JANTJIE: We discussed this information, I discussed it with Mr Jagga and Mr Robertshaw and we decided that we should try to get Mbulelo Ngono or KK, so that we could recruit the same way as we did with the other three recruitees.
MR VISSER: Did Mr Robertshaw give you such instructions, you and Jagga?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And what did you do as a result thereof?
MR JANTJIE: Myself and Daniel Thulo went to this place that is Roma, that is where KK lived.
MR VISSER: Was that an address that you received from an informer?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And was Mr Thulo present when Mr Robertshaw gave the instructions?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What was Mr Robertshaw's instructions in regard to KK, what did you have to go and do?
MR JANTJIE: Mr Robertshaw instructed us to go to that place with the aim of recruiting KK, so that he could work with us.
MR VISSER: And if you did not succeed in recruiting him in Lesotho, what were you supposed to do?
MR JANTJIE: We were supposed to come with him the way that came with the other three people.
MR VISSER: You're supposed to bring him to the farm, is that what you're saying?
MR VISSER: And if he did not want to come from his own free will, what were you supposed to do?
MR JANTJIE: We were supposed to meet with other people who were working with us in Lesotho, who would help us to get him.
MR VISSER: When you say "get him", do you mean abduct him?
MR JANTJIE: When I refer to these other people I was referring to the Lesotho police and then they will bring him to us.
MR VISSER: And what did you then do with him?
MR JANTJIE: On our way to Roma we decided that we are not going to try and recruit him, we'll go straight to the police in Roma, so that they could help us to get KK.
MR VISSER: Now my question to you is this Mr Jantjie, please listen carefully, was this cleared with Mr Robertshaw beforehand?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Alright. So you go to the police station, and what happens there?
MR JANTJIE: We met with two policemen, we explained to them everything, they did not have a problem with our request, so they said they will go with us to the place where KK was staying and if KK was there they will arrest him and they will give him over to us.
MR VISSER: Now did the four of you, you, Thulo and the two policemen from Lesotho, then go to a certain address near the University of Lesotho?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Was it a flat, an apartment?
MR JANTJIE: I would say it was a flat, because there were many people staying there. It had many doors.
MR VISSER: And was it a flat in which a certain Mabece - Chairperson, the bundle, page 44 and following, where the person Lidiwa Mabece stayed, is that the place you're referring to?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And did you find KK there?
MR VISSER: Was the apartment searched?
MR JANTJIE: The Lesotho police did the searching, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Was anything found?
MR JANTJIE: They found a handgrenade underneath the chair, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Underneath the bed, in what?
MR LAX: Was it a chair or a bed? It was translated as a chair.
MR JANTJIE: It was underneath the bed, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And was he then arrested?
MR JANTJIE: We went with him to Roma Police Station ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: No, just answer the question. Was KK, Mr Ngono, was he then arrested by the Lesotho police?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: During all of this, what did you and Mr Thulo do?
MR JANTJIE: While being arrested by the Lesotho police, we were just standing by.
MR VISSER: And before that, when the flat was searched and when people were talking to each other, what did you and Mr Thulo do?
MR JANTJIE: We were just standing by, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: In other words, you did nothing, you were just there?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Right. So at the Roma Police Station, what happened there?
MR JANTJIE: At the police station they gave him over to us and then we went with him to Ladybrand.
MR VISSER: Right. Now just before you get there ...(intervention)
MR LAX: Sorry, did you tell them you were going to take him to South Africa?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, we had already explained that to them, Chairperson.
MR LAX: Before you started this operation?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Just one issue which we must rectify. When KK was arrested, was he arrested together with Ms Mabece, or what is the position?
MR JANTJIE: As far as I know only KK was arrested.
MR VISSER: Chairperson, the fourth sentence in paragraph 40, at page 15I
"With his friend"
appears, according to me instructions, to be incorrect.
MR LAX: Can I just ask him something please.
Are you sure that she wasn't taken along, because she says she was? Oh, at a later stage she was taken along, ja. Do you know whether she was picked up, either then or at a later stage?
MR JANTJIE: I don't know, Chairperson, but she was not taken that day when I was with Tax.
MR LAX: Yes. And did you leave from the police station to South Africa?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Just to make it clear, when you left the apartment with Tax, to the Roma Police Station, what you're saying is that his girlfriend, Ms Mabece, was then not accompanying you, is that what you're saying?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR LAX: While we're still at the apartment, was there a third person present in the apartment, besides the four policemen and the two of them?
MR JANTJIE: We found KK at his place with Lindilama Mabece, his girlfriend. We were four, and in all we were six in that apartment.
MR LAX: Wasn't her sister there as well?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, she wasn't.
MR LAX: You're sure about that?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, that is so Chairperson.
MR LAX: So there wasn't a second young woman there, whoever she might have been?
MR VISSER: Alight. So off you go to Ladybrand and what happens now?
MR JANTJIE: We went with KK to Ladybrand and we went straight to the farm, that is where we recruited him.
MR VISSER: Who recruited him, Mr Jantjie?
MR JANTJIE: It was myself and Mr Jagga.
MR VISSER: Did you talk to him?
MR VISSER: Did you tell him that you were members of the Security Police?
MR LAX: Perhaps he could tell us what he told him, rather than leading him in this way.
MR VISSER: What was the contents of your discussions with KK, on the farm?
MR JANTJIE: We explained to him that we are working for the Security Branch of the Police and we would wish that he work with us and he should give us information about the other members of the ANC who are in the Republic of South Africa and those who are in Lesotho.
MR VISSER: And what was his reaction?
MR JANTJIE: Although it took us time before we could manage to convince him, but ultimately he agreed to work with us.
MR VISSER: Did you assault or torture him?
MR VISSER: Do you know why he decided to work with the Security Police, what motivated him?
MR JANTJIE: I would not say that there was something that motivated him to work with us, but we just had a discussion with him and ultimately he agreed to work with us.
MR VISSER: Was it just one discussion you had with him?
MR VISSER: How long did this take?
MR JANTJIE: We took him back the following day, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: No, how long did the discussion last, Mr Jantjie?
MR JANTJIE: We fetched him at around 3 o'clock and the discussion continued until midnight and the following day in the morning, we had another discussion with him for one hour to two hours.
MR VISSER: So you had more than one discussion with him, is that correct?
MR VISSER: Was he - when you told him in the first place that you were members of the Security Police and suggested that he should become an informer, was he willing immediately to do so, or what is the position? What was his initial reaction?
MR JANTJIE: He did not agree to work with us initially.
MR VISSER: That only happened a day later you say?
MR JANTJIE: On the very same day we nearly reached an agreement with him, but the following day we managed to reach an agreement with him.
MR LAX: What do you mean you nearly reached an agreement with him? What exactly to you mean by that?
MR JANTJIE: He would say to us: "Give us time, I want to think" and that was an indication to us that he wanted to think about this thing first.
MR LAX: So from 3 o'clock in the afternoon till twelve midnight, he kept asking for more time to think about it?
MR JANTJIE: That was not the only thing that we discussed with him, there were also things that we discussed with him concerning his work.
MR LAX: Well you see, you haven't told us about that. So far you've said your discussions with him were about recruiting him and you spoke to him from three in the afternoon until twelve midnight, you haven't said you asked him all sorts of other questions about his work and what he was doing and ... So you had lots of conversations with him, isn't that so?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR LAX: You'd ask him whether he wanted to join, he's say: "No, I'm not interested, I still need time to think", then you'd probably go away and leave him and come back again, isn't that so?
MR JANTJIE: No, we would not leave him, but we will discuss other things with him.
MR LAX: Well how was he supposed to think about it while you were talking to him about other things?
MR JANTJIE: We were not taught that we should put a person under pressure. If a person doesn't understand what you're saying to him, you give him a chance to think about it.
MR LAX: Well that's precisely my question. How could he think about it while you were asking him about all sorts of other things? Surely you'd leave him alone, give him an opportunity to think, lock him in a room, whatever, let him think about it and then after twenty minutes come back to him and say: "Well now you've had a chance to think about it, what's your position?" Isn't that so, isn't that just the most logical thing to expect?
MR JANTJIE: That is not how we worked, Chairperson.
MR LAX: Oh, I see. Please carry on.
MR SIBANYONI: Can I just maybe come in immediately after that?
In some of the applications by Eugene de Kock, he told the TRC that whenever the members of the liberation movements were caught they were told to choose between two things, that is to cooperate with the police, or to be killed, and I want to have your comment, why was it so different in your case, that you were working very friendly with them, trying to persuade them in a friendly manner? Do you have anything to comment about that?
MR JANTJIE: I would say in short, Chairperson, we were not recruiting people the same way as other people in other provinces did.
MR LAX: Can I just follow up one thing?
Did you at all make it clear to him what might happen to him if he didn't work with you?
MR JANTJIE: No, we did not try to threaten him. We never told him what would happen if he did not agree to work with us.
MR VISSER: Now perhaps while we're on this point, what could have happened if KK refused to become an informer, what would you have done with him?
MR JANTJIE: Even if he refused we would still take him back to Lesotho.
MR VISSER: Was he ...(intervention)
MR LAX: Are you - sorry, are you seriously saying to us that you would take a trained MK member back to Lesotho if he refused to work for you? Why wouldn't you arrest him and prosecute him for undergoing military training, at the very least, being a member of a banned organisation?
MR JANTJIE: Chairperson, you have said so many things, what is the question?
MR LAX: Well, are you seriously expecting us to believe that you would take a trained MK cadre and return him back to Lesotho, because he had refused to work with you? Surely you would have arrested the man and charged him for being a trained member of the MK? As many, many others were arrested and charged.
MR JANTJIE: Chairperson, I'm saying to you, even if he refused to work with us, we will still return him to Lesotho, because the way we took him from Lesotho, everybody knew that he was taken by the police and people will want to know what happened to him.
MR LAX: Yes. That didn't stop the Security Forces taking lots of people from lots of places and charging them. But in any event, surely there's a very good reason why you wouldn't take him back to Lesotho, and we've heard this in many, many cases. He knew you, he knew Jagga, he knew Robertshaw, he would have seen Thulo, he would have been an immense security threat to you guys who were working in Lesotho. Isn't that so?
MR JANTJIE: According to us, Chairperson, he was not the person who was going to be of any threat to us.
MR LAX: I see. Well, other clients of Mr Visser and Mr Wagener have told us that the reason they killed certain people was precisely for that reason, because once they had refused to become informers, they were a serious threat to their structures and that's why they killed them. Anyway, you've given us your answer, we'll have to accept it for the time being.
MR VISSER: In any event, what happened then with KK? After he had declared himself willing to work with you, what happened to him?
MR JANTJIE: Like the other three, KK was taken back to Lesotho and we arranged the place where we would meet after some few days with him.
MR JANTJIE: It was myself and Mr Jagga.
MR VISSER: So the issue of what should happen to him if he didn't become an informer, never arose in his case, is that correct? Because he decided to become an informer.
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And it was also the same as far as Nomasonto and Tax was concerned, is that your evidence?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Now what further happened as far as Betty Boom and her members were concerned?
MR JANTJIE: After a week we contacted Betty Boom, we went to see her in Lesotho. We went there to get some more information about the alleged attacks that were going to be launched by the ANC, from Lesotho.
MR VISSER: And did you receive information from her?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Alright. And you say at page 16J: "Shortly thereafter", referring to January 1989, that's a typing error, it should read 1988, Chairperson, at the top of page 15J. So what happened thereafter?
MR JANTJIE: When we went to meet Betty Boom, she told us that she has received an instruction that she and her other comrades should go to Lusaka, to the ANC Headquarters.
MR VISSER: Did you give her any advice?
MR JANTJIE: We thought that if they would go to Lusaka alone, that was an indication to us that ANC knew something about them. So we thought that it would be better for them to come over to South Africa, so that we could include as members of the askaris.
MR VISSER: When you say that you thought that the ANC would know something about them, what are you referring to? Know what about them?
MR JANTJIE: Chairperson, I was saying that ANC maybe knew something about them, not us.
MR LAX: What do you mean, Sir? You see, how could they not know about you if they were worried, if you were worried that the ANC was going to send them back to Lusaka? Surely they must have known about the contact between Boom and you and therefore, it's obvious why they were being sent back to Lusaka. On your own version.
MR JANTJIE: Yes, that is so, Chairperson.
Now are far as you're concerned, Mr Jantjie, you have already told us that you did the things you did in this regard, acting on instructions from your commanding officers, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What did you believe about the situation in which you found yourself? During the conflict of the past.
MR JANTJIE: My understanding was that I was doing my official duties.
MR VISSER: And did you also understand that you were obliged to follow instructions and do what you were told, in order to combat the revolutionary onslaught?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Just a few loose issues. Chairperson, I notice it's 1 o'clock, perhaps if I can just continue a minute or two.
CHAIRPERSON: ...(indistinct - no microphone)
Now you know what the situation here looks like, because we know that these four people that you on your own admission, took to South Africa, disappeared, we don't know where they are, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, that is so, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: After Betty Boom told you that she and her members of her unit were summoned to Zambia, and after you delivered to KK Ngono to Swaziland - I'm sorry, to Lesotho, did you ever hear from them again?
MR VISSER: What do you think happened to them?
MR JANTJIE: I cannot explain, Chairperson, I cannot think what happened to them, Chairperson, because we never met with them again.
MR VISSER: Well, didn't you kill them?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, we did not.
MR VISSER: If you had killed them, Mr Jantjie, what would you have done?
MR JANTJIE: We would apply for amnesty concerning the murder of these four people.
MR VISSER: What do you think happened to them?
MR JANTJIE: I really don't think what happened to them, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: When did these incidents take place?
MR JANTJIE: It happened in December 1987.
MR VISSER: Now there's a Mr Buthelezi who made a statement in the bundle, page 54, paragraph 11, in which he says that KK was absent from Lesotho from September 1987 to February 1988, and in which he seems to suggest that KK was, either for the first or the second time, I don't know, we'll ask him if he gives evidence, abducted on the 15th of March 1988. Now if KK was again abducted on the 15th of March 1988, would you know anything about it? Were you involved in that?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, there is nothing that I know about this.
MR VISSER: And there's also evidence of a photograph that a policeman told the family of KK about ... pardon?
MR LAX: He showed them the photograph.
MR VISSER: In fact he showed them the photograph, which was apparently taken after KK's arrest, whenever that was. My question to you is, do you know anything about a photograph of KK?
MR VISSER: Now there's another - I will give you the references later, Chairperson, and by the latest, during the argument, depending on what evidence is led, so I'm not going to deal with it now.
A Mr Pitso also filed a statement, page 51, and he says that he was informed that Betty Boom's furniture was taken away with South African Defence Force trucks, do you know anything about that?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, I know nothing.
MR VISSER: Well it says "resembling South African ...", so perhaps I wasn't quite correct in what I put, but we'll deal with that. Do you know anything about an alleged shooting of a person by the name of Mphilo, M-p-h-i-l-o Radebe and KK, on a road somewhere in Lesotho?
MR JANTJIE: The information that we got was that they met the Lesotho Police or the Lesotho Army at the roadblock and a shooting ensued there.
MR VISSER: And is it correct that one person, Mr Mphilo, was killed and - no, I'm sorry, I've got it wrong, Mr Radebe, I think, was killed and Mr Mphilo was taken to hospital?
MR JANTJIE: I don't whether it was Mr Radebe, but I remember that there was a person who died there and Mr Mphilo was sent to the hospital.
MR VISSER: And in hospital, apparently Mr Mphilo was assassinated.
MR JANTJIE: I know that he was killed, but I don't know how he was killed.
MR VISSER: Did you have any knowledge or anything to do with the shooting on the road or the assassination of Mr Mphilo in the hospital?
MR VISSER: It's been brought to our attention, Mr Jantjie, and we discussed this with you yesterday, that in an amnesty application by a person by the name of Mr van der Westhuizen, Henri van der Westhuizen, which served before this Committee yesterday, at pages 19 and 20 your name was mentioned as somebody who went into Lesotho with members of Vlakplaas, on a certain mission, what is your reaction to that?
MR JANTJIE: I do not agree with that, I never went to Lesotho with the people from Vlakplaas. I never worked with the people from Vlakplaas, Chairperson.
MR JANTJIE: I have never worked with them, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Then there's a Mr Kadi, who made a statement - I'm not sure what the relevance of the statement is, Chairperson, but we'll deal with later, in which almost Dirk Coetzee-like allegations are made. You've read it and this has been dealt with in consultation with you, I'm not going to waste time about it, do you agree with what Mr Kadi says about you and the role that you played in his incidents that he mentions?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, I disagree with him.
MR VISSER: And then lastly, you told us that certain approached have been made to you by somebody in regard to your evidence before this Committee, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Would you just tell the Committee what this is about.
MR JANTJIE: Since the TRC investigation started in our area, we had discussions with a man by the name of Phule Zwane, who I know that he was the TRC Investigator from Durban. On many occasions, even yesterday in Pretoria, he is the person who told me that, or who attempted to tell me that I should change my statement against the people I am working with and then he said to me he will take me back to the South African Police Services if I do so. I said to him I left the Police Services because I was medically unfit and I no longer have the wish to work for the Police Services.
MR VISSER: Were you promised anything about a rank?
MR JANTJIE: He said to me I will be promoted.
MR VISSER: Thank you. And the evidence that you gave here today, is that the evidence as best you can recall, of what actually and truthfully happened in regard to these four victims?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman. Perhaps we can take the adjournment now, so that I can go through my notes, but I believe I've finished.
MR SIBANYONI: Maybe, Chairperson, just one clarity before we adjourn.
I notice there is a document you're constantly referred to and when my colleague was asking you questions you said you want to see what you have written down, what document is that one that you are using?
MR JANTJIE: This is the document in which I have explained all the things that I have done, for which I apply for amnesty.
MR SIBANYONI: Part of the application?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: It's at page 15A, Chairperson. I thought I had referred you to it. That's the only document he's referring to.
MR SIBANYONI: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Before we just break for lunch, what was your rank at that stage within the South African Police?
MR JANTJIE: I was the Warrant Officer, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Jantjie, we will return after lunch, if Mr Visser does not have further clarifications about your evidence, you will be cross-examined by Mr Koopedi and Mr Mapoma, but we will for now break for lunch and come back at 2p.m.
LESIZI MICHAEL JANTJIE: (s.u.o.)
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, yes, there are two issues which I just want to briefly deal with in the evidence of Mr Jantjie, but Chairperson a problem is arising and which causing us great concern.
MR VISSER ADDRESSES: And we have thought very deeply about it, and we believe that short of applying to court for an urgent interdict, we must mention it to you. This person, Zwane, has apparently telephoned Mr Thulo this morning and he has suggested to him that he, Mr Zwane, is going to come to Mr Thulo where he's in bed at home, to change his statements in this amnesty application. Now Chairperson, the members of the Investigation Unit have no right to talk to my clients, with great respect, they've got nothing to talk to them about and they're not entitled to do so. And Mr Zwane is clearly on a crusade to obtain from both Mr Jantjie and now Mr Thulo, a statement which does accord, according to them, to the truth. And Chairperson, we were wondering whether there's anything that you could possibly do from your side, in order to put a stop to this.
CHAIRPERSON: When did he phone?
MR VISSER: While we were busy this morning.
CHAIRPERSON: He phoned Thulo whilst we were busy this morning?
MR VISSER: Yes. He spoke to Mr Jagga, Mr Jagga can confirm that and he is now, he now knows that Jantjie's given evidence and he now is focusing on Mr Thulo. Chairperson, with great respect, this is not what this process is about.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me just find out, I don't know the person either. Mr Mapoma, would you assist us, I don't know this Zwane, is he in the Cape Town office, or what is the position?
MR MAPOMA: Thank you, Chairperson. Chairperson, actually Phule Zwane is not the TRC official.
MR MAPOMA: Yes, Chairperson. He was at some point an Investigator within the TRC, but he resigned some time ago and he's no longer working for the TRC. But I understand, Chairperson, that the families have requested him in his individual capacity, to investigate this matter on their behalf. So whatever he's doing, he's doing is an independent investigation, so to speak, not under the TRC, and he's not reporting to the TRC for whatever he's doing. That is all I can say, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, it would appear the ball is now being played into your court.
MR KOOPEDI: I realise that, Chairperson, it's thrown into my court even though I'm actually at the stands, I'm not a player here. What I want to say, Chairperson, is that I only know Mr Zwane as a person who was an Investigator of the TRC, and that was perhaps two years or so ago. I have no knowledge of him acting on behalf of any of my clients. No-one has said so. I'm not denying that he's going that, but what I want to say is, no-one has told me that Phule Zwane is doing any work for them or for this matter.
CHAIRPERSON: But couldn't we just nip it here, Mr Koopedi, that we take a short adjournment, let's get to this, because I want to make a ruling about this. Let's just adjourn shortly, just to become certain of what you are saying. They haven't brought it to your attention, they might have later done that. I'm not saying they have, but let's just have certainty on this matter.
MR KOOPEDI: We'll take a short adjournment. When you're ready, please call us.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
LESIZI MICHAEL JANTJIE: (s.u.o.
CHAIRPERSON: I must apologise for this, it would appear there was mis-communication, I said as soon as this is resolved or some understanding has been reached, we should be called. We are sitting waiting for you until Mr Ashley called us back, we are sorry about that.
Mr Koopedi, the last time - or should I address Mr Malindi instead? I don't know.
MR KOOPEDI ADDRESSES: Counsel says I can proceed to respond to this. Chairperson, Honourable Committee Members, we've taken instructions on what was said earlier and the instructions are to the effect that Phule Zwane was one of the first Investigators on this matter, this is how the families know him and that he at some stage, left the TRC or left investigating this matter and that numerous other people came and the families were really not happy or satisfied with the investigations that followed after Phule Zwane.
Now at some stage, it cannot be remember exactly when, but the families asked Phule Zwane to assist them in two forms. Perhaps the first form would be to tell them whether there's anything from his investigations that is not before the Amnesty Committee or is not any of the bundles. And secondly they asked him to further the investigations. According to the instructions we have received, Chairperson, it appears that Phule Zwane was a resourceful avenue for these families, because of the fact that evidence is coming out, even though it's now, that there was a lady present when Tsolo and Mokonjulwa took Umkosana to his grandparents and in all the information that was before the families, that was not so.
And to take it further, Chairperson, we received a very vehement note on the question whether there was any instructions to Phule to get him to interfere with any of the evidence. Our instructions are that there was never any instruction or request to Phule Zwane to promise applicant Jantjie that he would be returned to work as a policeman and that he would be given certain promotions.
The families state that they know Phule not to be working in the SAPS or to be in any influential position for him to offer people jobs in the SAPS, and even promotions. They said that in an attempt to confirm that they never asked Phule to do that. The instruction goes on further that they had never Phule Zwane to talk to any of the applicants and in particular, applicant Thulo, and change his statement.
On the basis of what we have been instructed, Chairperson, it is therefore our submission that, with respect, this Panel is unable to make any ruling like you intimated, Chairperson, that you would want to make a ruling on this matter. Our submission is that you are unable to make a ruling, simply because at the moment there is no evidence before you, I speak this subject to correction, I believe that there is no evidence before you ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, since he is not in our employ, do I have powers over somebody who is outside the Truth and Reconciliation Commission's employment?
MR KOOPEDI: ; Well Chairperson, I seem to recall there's a section that deals with interference on the Empowering Act, I'm not sure what it says and I will not say whether or not you have any jurisdiction over him. But what I wanted to say is that I believe that because there is no evidence before you at the moment, you are unable to consider evidence and make a ruling. And further, that I believe that justice dictates and the audi ulteram partem rule dictates that Phule's version should be heard. So our submission is that let's call Phule, let him come here, let him tell what interference has been done, if any, and only when he has done that, then I believe this Committee's able to make a decision. Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: When you say your instructions are that subsequent Investigators employed by the TRC and in the respect, the Amnesty Committee, they were not as resourceful as Phule and then they engaged Phule to continue to unravel information for them, would this hearing be ripe without that? Or is that something private, outside this hearing?
MR KOOPEDI: Our submission, Chairperson, is that we would remain having a right to investigate this matter, even after you made a ruling, even after you had decided on whether or not amnesty should be granted. And what I'm saying is, the matter may be ripe for a hearing, but the families would continue to make their own investigations, particularly in the light of the type of applications that are before them and what families believe might have happened to their relatives.
CHAIRPERSON: What I'm actually driving at is that if there are other investigations, which I'm not saying the families are not entitled to, and those investigations reveal information which would impact, say for instance, we were to grant amnesty and those investigations reveal that amnesty was not supposed to have been granted because of this fresh information, would it be right for us to continue with this hearing?
MR KOOPEDI: I do not have an answer, Chairperson, but I will say this for what it is worth. From this morning it became clear to me, at least in my mind, that this hearing will not be finalised today or this week rather. And it is on that basis that I presumed that whatever investigations that the families are continuing with, can still be incorporated in the hearing whilst it is proceeding.
CHAIRPERSON: How would it be incorporated? Say for instance Mr Jantjie, I excuse him and some of the questions have to be posed to Mr Jantjie, how could we proceed thereafter and introduce new information without having Mr Jantjie commenting on whatever would impact on him? How could that happen?
MR KOOPEDI: We would simply recall him, Chairperson. We've had instances where witnesses have been recalled. We'd simply recall him.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
MR VISSER ADDRESSES: Chairperson, with respect, if Mr Zwane is not in the employ of the TRC, that's the end of the matter as far as you're concerned. Quite clearly.
The issue raised by Mr Koopedi in regard to other investigations is that the Act makes it quite clear that it's the Investigation Unit of the TRC who does investigations and no-
one else. It says so in Section 28, and it makes it a criminal offence for any other person to do likewise. It says:
"Subject to Section 33, no article or information obtained by the Investigating Unit, shall be made public"
Giving it to the victims, we respectfully submit, is making it public.
"And no person except a member of the Investigation Unit, the Commission, the Committee concerned or a member of the staff of the Commission, shall have access to such article or information until such time as the Commission or the Committee determines that it may be made public, or until the commencement of any hearing in terms of this Act."
It's quite clear that the Act supposes that it has instituted an Investigating Unit and that's the Investigating Unit that should deal with matters of investigations.
We've had problems in the past, and I say this for no other reason than to give you an example, in the Bopape case, where the Investigating Unit didn't seem to come forward with any information and we actually had to ask specific permission from Justice Miller, for my clients to do their own investigations. It's happened also in the Motsamai and Ngo in Bloemfontein, Chairperson, where we got information, but that was specifically with the permission of the Committee, for the very reason of Section 28. So your question to Mr Koopedi, Chairperson, is, there's no reason for you to stop the hearings and not to proceed with them. In fact, these hearings had already been postponed for the very reason that Ms Quin made a statement, I don't know whether you've got it before you, to say that they haven't had sufficient time. And the Panel who would have heard this application, two/three weeks ago, were very critical of the statement and saying that they don't accept it, because they've had three years in which to investigate. That hearing was postponed because the administrative staff did not give proper notice certain people.
So we've gone through this issue of investigations and more information, etcetera, Chairperson, and we are where we are today after a long time and after a postponement and we would urge upon you to continue with the hearing. And Chairperson, we will have to find other ways and means of stopping Mr Zwane. It's as simple as that. We can't ask your help if he's not in the employ of the TRC.
CHAIRPERSON: I must say what the document of Quin which you refer to, it's not in the bundle and I was not told, because Mr Lax, I believe, was in that hearing.
MR LAX: I was present in that matter and in fact the Chairperson may have been Judge Khampepe had to leave that particular hearing and the Chairperson arrived the next day, to deal with the next couple of matters after that. I think Mr Wynand Malan was the other person on the Panel. I remember the issue. At the end of the day the matter turned on the question of that proper notice hadn't been given.
MR VISSER: That's correct, that's why I it was postponed.
MR LAX: And that was the reason for the postponement.
MR VISSER: But I believe that it's fair comment to say to you that that Committee then, including yourself, which I've forgotten about, I do apologise, was not impressed with the issue of investigations that there had been not sufficient time and so on.
MR LAX: Yes no, no, investigations are an ongoing matter within the Commission, as you'll be aware ...(intervention)
MR VISSER: Yes. But as a reason for a postponement?
MR LAX: No, not specifically, yes you're quite right.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, I don't think we should take this matter any further, but I would bring Section 28 to your attention, that if they're not satisfied they've got to revert to the TRC. Or if they have any further information they can only give it to the TRC's Investigative Unit and nobody else. Because we
don't want this reconciliation process to have unpalatable ramifications unnecessarily, where we would get to each other's throats again.
MR KOOPEDI: I hear you, Chairperson, and like I said, I had not read this Section when I spoke to you, I just seemed to remember that there was something to that effect. Yes, and I will leave it at that. And I perhaps wish to say that I was not saying this hearing should be postponed for us to hear Phule Zwane, I would very much want us to proceed.
CHAIRPERSON: No, that was merely a question proposed by myself. I don't utter it to you.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: In this instance this Panel has no jurisdiction over Mr Phule Zwane and it's up to the parties or those who are involved or those who are affected by his further investigations, to seek whatever remedy they deem fit. We shall proceed with this hearing.
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson. I have but two further questions.
CHAIRPERSON: May you just bear with me, Mr Visser. Sorry about that, Mr Visser, you may proceed.
EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER: (cont)
Mr Jantjie, as I understand your evidence, Mr Thulo was involved on the occasion of each of the persons when they were fetched from Lesotho, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And indeed, he was involved in the abduction of KK?
MR JANTJIE: May you please repeat the name again, Chairperson.
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: And was Mr Thulo involved in taking back to Lesotho, any of these persons?
MR VISSER: Was Mr Thulo involved in the recruitment of any of these victims?
MR VISSER: Thank you, Chairperson, I don't have any further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Mr Visser. Welcome back, Advocate Malindi.
MR MALINDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: I don't know what is the arrangement between you and Mr Koopedi. Who is going to cross-examine?
MR MALINDI: Chairperson, Mr Koopedi had the privilege of hearing Mr Jantjie's evidence-in-chief, I propose that he proceeds with the cross-examination of the witness.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Koopedi.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson, I'm honoured once more.
Mr Jantjie, perhaps let's start where your evidence-in-chief started. You stated that you did not wish to divulge the names of your informers and for what was referred as for "obvious reasons". My client clients wish to know, what are these "obvious reasons", why would you want to hide the informers that led you to Betty Boom? What is so obvious, in that they have no idea what that is.
MR JANTJIE: I am trying to protect their lives where they stay.
CHAIRPERSON: If I may just come in before you proceed any further. I've got that the informers would be in two phases, the others would be those referred to and those would be the ones abducted and the others would not be divulged for security reasons. That's the note that I have, not for "obvious reasons". I'm just reading my note to you, unless they differ from yours, but I would say proceed.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
You say the reasons would be to protect their lives, in what way?
MR JANTJIE: By not revealing their names, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: I believe you are aware that, you know that for you to be granted amnesty one of the things you need to do is to give full disclosure.
MR JANTJIE: Yes, I do know that, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: And you are aware that at the moment you are not giving full disclosure in that regard, because you're protecting your informants.
MR JANTJIE: I am trying to disclosure everything, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: I still don't see how.
CHAIRPERSON: Does full disclosure not refer to all relevant facts which would make us come to a decision?
MR KOOPEDI: If the question is directed to me, Chairperson?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja, I'm sorry, I meant to ...
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, I believe so, Chairperson, and I believe my other task is not only to assist you to get to this decision, but to assist the families to get to the bottom of the matter, to understand this matter and to enhance reconciliation. And the basis of my question is simply that if in fact there were informers that told the applicant about Betty Boom, who are these informers, why do you want to hide them?
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, I just wanted to know the relevant facts, I didn't want to pre-empt you.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Repeat it for his purposes, please Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Now that you know that you have to give full disclosure for you to obtain amnesty and that this full disclosure relates to the relevant facts about this matter, my instructions are to find out that since are not giving the names of these informers that led you to Betty Boom, do you believed that, or are you moving on the basis that you will nevertheless be granted amnesty, even though you are not giving this full disclosure?
MR JANTJIE: I have already disclosed everything, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: I'm sure you'll agree that you have not disclosed the names of these people and it therefore means that's not everything.
MR JANTJIE: I have explained that I do not want to put their lives in danger, that is why I am unable to disclose their names.
MR KOOPEDI: I will not proceed, but I will put it to you that you have in this respect not given full disclosure. I take it there is no comment.
Let's go to Betty Boom. What information did you get about her? Her age, how old was she? Or as your informants told you, how old was Betty Boom?
MR JANTJIE: I cannot explain what my informers told me. Her age and other things were not things that were important to us, we were only interested in the facts that would help us to get to her.
CHAIRPERSON: Because you met her, what would you estimate her age was?
MR JANTJIE: In 1987, I think she was around 29 or 30 years old.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed, Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson, I'm indebted.
And did you know what position did she occupy in the ANC, or - yes, in the ANC?
MR KOOPEDI: What position did she occupy in the ANC?
MR JANTJIE: I know that she was the Head of the Free State Machinery of the MK.
MR KOOPEDI: Perhaps I should explain my question before I ask, I'll do it in the form of questions. Did you know that there would be the ANC as a political organisation and MK, Umkhonto weSizwe as the military wing of that organisation?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, I did know that, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: In my question I was referring to the position she occupied in the ANC as a political organisation. I am yet to come to the MK activities. Did you have any knowledge on the position she occupied within the ANC?
MR JANTJIE: No, I don't know her position in the ANC.
MR KOOPEDI: Did you know that she was a member of the South African Communist Party in Lesotho?
MR JANTJIE: No, I did not know, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now you said in your evidence-in-chief that you started to observe Betty's house, you'd go and sit and perform some surveillance for two or three hours a day. Now what I want to know is, during those surveillance escapades, what happened, what did you see?
MR JANTJIE: There was nothing happening, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: No-one came in that house or out of that house?
MR JANTJIE: We were just observing her, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Are you saying that if somebody, or myself was to walk into that house, you'd be less concerned, your eyes would only be keyed into seeing Betty and no-one else?
MR JANTJIE: We would have interest in your, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, now my question is, did you see anyone come in or out of that house, other than Betty?
MR JANTJIE: No, not as far as I remember, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Now did Betty have a car, to your knowledge?
MR JANTJIE: Not as far as I know, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: It is strange, in that my instructions are that Betty had a BMW, which we drove and used in Lesotho. Did you ever see her in any car or in a BMW vehicle?
MR JANTJIE: During our observations there we never saw car or any BMW that you are referring to.
MR KOOPEDI: But you would not deny that - or would you deny that she actually drove in a BMW, which was her official car in Lesotho?
MR JANTJIE: I have never seen Betty driving a BMW, or any other car.
MR KOOPEDI: Now the information that you received on her, that she was a Commander of an MK cell, what in particular did you get? Were you told the number of people in her cell, or were you only told that she was a Commander of a cell? Were you given any information on what this cell had to do? That is before you spoke to Betty or made contact with Betty.
MR JANTJIE: Every bit of information that we'd receive we would write it down, but today I don't have those records, that is why I am only talking about what I can remember, because I'm unable to go back and get the records of the information that we received about her.
MR LAX: Sorry, why are you unable to go back and get those records?
MR JANTJIE: I'm no longer a member of the South African Police, Chairperson.
MR LAX: You could have asked us to subpoena it through your lawyers. As a policeman you'd know that's possible, isn't that so?
MR LAX: As a former policeman, I beg your pardon.
MR JANTJIE: Because I'm no longer working for the police, I do not want to interfere with their work because I'm no longer working for them.
MR LAX: Well, your amnesty application depends on getting that kind of information to refresh your memory, to the right facts before the Amnesty Committee.
MR JANTJIE: The information that I'm giving you today, Chairperson, is the information that I remember, it's not something that I get from the paper.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
You stated in your evidence-in-chief, and correct me if I'm wrong, if I heard that wrong, that part of the information you received on Betty was that she had financial problems, did I hear you correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is correct, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: And this was the information given to you by your informers, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Now if you could look at your application form - and Chairperson, I'm referring to page 9 of the paginated bundle, what you say there is that at some stage you and Jagga succeeded to make physical contact with Betty and you immediately saw that she was not happy with the ANC and particularly with the money she was getting. Now I find this to be in contradiction to the fact that you actually knew before you went to Betty that she had financial problems and that you did not know that when you met with her. Can you explain that for me?
MR JANTJIE: Like I have already explained, Chairperson, the evidence that I have given before you here, as Mr Koopedi says that there's a contradiction in my evidence, I don't see that contradiction. I'm unable to refer back to what I've already said and give more information apart from what I've already said, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: He's referring to paragraph, I think on page 9 under (iv), the third paragraph
"Jagga and I successfully made physical contact with Betty Boom and immediately realised that she was disillusioned with her position within the ANC and specifically the lack of financial support that she and her cell received."
He says reading that sentence, you did not approach Betty Boom knowing that she had financial problems, but you discovered that when you made contact with her, according to this sentence I've just read out to you. Would I be correct, Mr Koopedi, am I putting your position correctly?
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, you are, Chairperson, I'm indebted.
MR JANTJIE: It is not so, Chairperson. We went there to Betty knowing that she was not satisfied about the money that she was receiving from her superiors.
MR KOOPEDI: Would you be able to tell this Honourable Committee why in your application you gave the impression that you only got to know about her problems and her dissatisfactions when you had made physical contact with her?
MR JANTJIE: I would say, Chairperson, what is written here is that we were trying to recollect what we can remember so that we can put it here. This is what we can remember.
MR LAX: The question was, why did you give that impression? Are you saying that at the time you wrote this form, you didn't remember properly and that's why it's written in this way?
MR JANTJIE: I would say, Chairperson, what is written here, that is what we know happened or what we did.
MR KOOPEDI: I will pass this point, Chairperson, then leave it for argument.
Now when you made this physical contact with Betty, who did you say you were? I know you said in your evidence-in-chief that you were MK members, but who? What names did you give her, what credentials did you give her?
MR JANTJIE: I do not remember the name that I used, Chairperson, or what other people that were with me, the names that they used I don't remember, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: And from which unit did you say you came from?
MR JANTJIE: We did not tell her about the unit from which we came.
MR KOOPEDI: And she also didn't want to know that?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, she was never interested in that.
MR KOOPEDI: Did she want to know at least from which front were you sent?
MR JANTJIE: Even if we did explain that to her, but I do not recall, but we tried to make her believe what we were saying to her.
MR KOOPEDI: So what you're saying is you don't know if she asked you those questions, is that what you're saying?
MR LAX: Sorry, just put the mike further away from you again, you just moved it about six inches forward. It's fine, it picks you up perfectly, don't you worry about it, it's a very sensitive mike. The closer you bring it to you the more it distorts.
MR KOOPEDI: The question which I - do you recall the question?
CHAIRPERSON: No, rather put it to save on time, Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: The question asked was, are you saying that Betty asked you these questions, or she did not ask you these questions?
MR JANTJIE: She did not ask those questions, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Now are you telling this Honourable Committee that you went and met with a Commander of the Umkhonto weSizwe, a member of the ANC, a member of the South African Communist Party in Lesotho, told her that you are MK members and there to assist her, and she did not want to know who you were, where you came from, she just accepted you on your word? Is that what you want this Committee to believe?
MR JANTJIE: That is what I say, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: I take it you would know that Betty had received military training, which would include training on intelligence, etcetera, etcetera? Did you know that at that time?
MR JANTJIE: I did not know until we met her.
MR KOOPEDI: You'd have assumed that she would still be a Commander without undergone those trainings?
MR JANTJIE: Which training are you referring to, Chairperson? I do not understand you.
MR KOOPEDI: Military training which is undergone by all MK cadres and which military training would include training on intelligence courses.
MR JANTJIE: I knew that she was a member of the MK and she had military training.
MR KOOPEDI: Now you say that when you spoke to Betty you discovered that she was disillusioned and had problems with the money she received from the ANC. Did she tell you how much was this money, the money that she was receiving from the ANC?
MR JANTJIE: She only said to us that the money that she's supposed to receive from the ANC always came late, but she never divulged any amount that she was receiving from the ANC.
MR KOOPEDI: You also didn't ask her what amount was she receiving?
MR JANTJIE: Chair, we did not ask.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, may I interpose here.
When you said in your evidence-in-chief that the monies she received after paying rent, she remained with almost nothing, what did you mean?
MR JANTJIE: I was saying that from the money that she would receive, after paying the rent and giving some amounts to other people who were working with her, she would be left with nothing for her own problems, or obligations.
CHAIRPERSON: I'm asking you this, because your response to Mr Koopedi's question is that she complained about monies being received late, hence I asked you that question. But you may proceed, Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
You said in your evidence-in-chief that after making this contact with Betty, you introduced yourselves as MK and told her that you've come to assist her in her operations and also told her further that you had money enough to help her, is that correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Now at this point, were you able to tell her what form of assistance would you be giving her and her unit in the operations, other than the financial one?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, the only assistance that we talked about with her concerned only the finance.
MR KOOPEDI: There's something I don't understand, please assist me here. You go to Betty, you say to Betty that: "We are MK, we are here to assist you in your operations", am I right up to this far?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: You say: "We are here to assist you and also have enough money to assist you". Now my question is that, other than this money, how else were you to assist her?
MR JANTJIE: She never asked that question and we never promised her any help apart from the money.
MR KOOPEDI: Now what you're saying is, between Betty and yourselves, at no stage did you talk about the operations which she was to carry, which you told her you were there to assist her with. She was not interested in those operations, she did not ask you anything else as to the logistics of those operations, is that what you're saying?
MR JANTJIE: That is what I say, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: I find it strange, in that - perhaps I should leave that for argument. You said that she then agreed to work with you. After agreeing to work with you, when was the first time that you paid her money?
MR JANTJIE: Although I do not remember the date well, I think it's around December in 1987, it could be a week before Xmas. That means, it's before the 25th of December in that year.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Let me rephrase my question. Supposing it was a Wednesday, like today, you meet and recruit Betty, agree with her that she's going to - you have not recruited her at that stage, you tell her that you are fellow MK members. Now I want to know, from that day, this Wednesday, when was it that you first gave her money, how many days thereafter? Did you give her money on the Thursday you met with her? When did you give her money?
MR JANTJIE: No, we did not give her money on that same day, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: The question is, was it the first day, or how many days after you met her? Don't just confine yourself to the first day.
MR JANTJIE: I would say it could be three days after we have met with her for the first time.
MR KOOPEDI: Now was this before or after you had revealed your true identity to her?
MR JANTJIE: That is before, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: So when she got the first payment, according to you she believed that you were legit, you were MK members at that stage?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: And the second time when you gave her money, was it before or after you had revealed your true identity?
MR JANTJIE: I do not remember well, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. Now what prompted you to reveal your true identity?
MR JANTJIE: That is after we have discovered what type of a person she was and after she had agreed that she will work with us.
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, she you can't work with you until you have revealed your true identity. You must listen to the flow of questions. The question you have been asked is, when you gave her the money which you say was three days after you first met and thereafter you can't remember when was the second time, and now when you say: "She was now able to tell us what kind of person she was. We had already revealed our true identity." I don't think it flows. Listen the questions, I don't think they are that difficult. Listen question, answer it as far as possible. I don't think at this stage that they have been trap questions for you, and I'm here to protect you. You can rest assured, if anything untoward is asked of you, I will protect you. So be free. I may not look that big, but I will protect you.
MR KOOPEDI: Perhaps let me go back to that question. What made you reveal your identity to her? What made you tell her that in fact you were not MK as you were claiming, but you were members of the South African Police?
MR JANTJIE: Like I have already explained, Chairperson, when we first met with her, in your discussions she knew that we were members of the MK. On our second meeting we had already discovered that this person would not be of danger to us if we reveal our true identity. The circumstances allowed us to reveal our true identities, because we had already met with her the first time and we had already discovered what type of person she was.
MR KOOPEDI: And what type of a person was she?
MR JANTJIE: We discovered that she was a person with whom we can work and we can reveal our true identity.
MR KOOPEDI: I'll pass this question.
MR LAX: Sorry, I'm not happy with your answer because you're not telling us anything. We're asking why did you think she was a person who you could reveal your identity to, then your answer is you thought she was a person, because she seemed to be the kind of person. What made you think that, what kind of personality did she have? Was she a grumpy person, was she a happy person, was she - what was it about her that made you feel you could disclose the fact, break your cover?
MR JANTJIE: Chairperson, I don't know how to explain this any further, because I am trying to explain as far as I possibly can.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me assist you, Mr Jantjie. In your evidence-in-chief you told us that you were using tactics which are only known to you people. Up to now we don't know what tactics you were using. Probably if you can start by telling us what tactics you were using, then we would understand how you discovered that this is a person you can work with. Because you left it hanging, you just said you were using your own tactics within the Security Branch, we don't know what those tactics are. Do you follow my reasoning?
MR JANTJIE: Yes, I do understand, Chairperson. In short Chairperson, I would say when you meet a person for the first time or for the second time, you were supposed to study that person well. If you have made an appointment with him at a certain place, if he did arrive to that place, that would be an indication to you that you and this person, you are together and you agree. If he does not up to that place, that will make you not to trust that person.
CHAIRPERSON: But those are not tactics peculiar to the Police, anybody else could do that. You said you were using your own tactics. I would also say make an appointment with you, if you don't turn up timeously or you don't indicate your lateness, I would conclude whichever way I do about you. It's not something peculiar to any institution, and in this respect the Police, it's not peculiar.
MR JANTJIE: As far as I'm concerned, Chairperson, I think those were some of the tactics that were peculiar to us, I did not think that other people, other than the Security Police were using the same tactics.
MR LAX: That's not a tactic, that's got nothing to do with being a tactic. Anybody would know that if you were late for a meeting, you were late. There might be a good reason why you're late. One of those reasons might be that you're suspicious and you don't trust the person, the other might be that your kombi didn't arrive on time, or your car broke down. That doesn't tell us anything about your tactics. What other tactics did you use? You see this is a very simple matter, what other tactics did you use? Are these secret matters you're sworn not to disclose?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, there are no other tactics.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Koopedi, you may proceed.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: But there was one question which you asked Mr Koopedi, may I pursue that please.
CHAIRPERSON: You said you don't know when you returned to Lesotho, how much precisely she was given but it could not have been R250 for each one of them, do you recall that?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: On what basis were you thinking that not more than R250 would solve her financial problems?
MR JANTJIE: Chairperson, at that time my budget in the job that I was doing, we were not allowed to give a person the money more than this amount, so we tried to give her the maximum amount that was allowed to us.
CHAIRPERSON: Now you are speaking of your budget, are you speaking of your budget as I personally, you only, or the unit?
MR JANTJIE: I am referring to the money that will come from the office, not from me personally.
CHAIRPERSON: Because the money was taken out by Jagga, would you know whether Jagga was using the budget money you had been allocated, or he was using his personal money? If you can have regard to page 15H
"When we dropped them off, Jagga gave her an amount of money for herself and for the other two persons. I cannot recall what the amount of money was, but it would have been approximately 250."
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: So because it was for three people it was R750? Would I be right? It would have been R250 each.
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now before this - you'll forgive me, I'll keep on ...(indistinct) him for things that are not clear for me and that they should not escape me, that I should ask these questions at the end of your cross-examination.
But allow me to ask you this. When you first made contact with her physically, that is Betty Boom, with whom were you?
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Jagga is a white man?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: And when you introduced yourself to Betty Boom as MK, did you include Mr Jagga also as an MK member?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson, he also introduced himself.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. You may proceed, Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
After Betty "had agreed" to work with you, you said in your evidence-in-chief that she gave you information on activists in Cape Town and activists in the Free State and even their operations, which information led to the arrest of these people, am I correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Now what is this information, who in Cape Town was arrested and for what? And the same question stands for Free State.
MR JANTJIE: As far as I can recall, Chairperson, the reports were sent to Cape Town and Bloemfontein. When the results were sent back from those branches, it became evident to us that certain people had been arrested following the information that we got from her.
MR KOOPEDI: I don't accept that. Betty gives you information about certain people, she tells you that there is so and so who is in Cape Town, who is performing this operation. Now what I want to know is, who was in Cape Town and what was the operation that led to their arrest?
MR JANTJIE: Chairperson, she wrote the names down, but I can no longer remember those names because I never used those names again.
MR KOOPEDI: I take it you were also not present in any arrests of any of these people?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: So you do not have first-hand knowledge as to whether anyone was arrested, am I correct?
MR JANTJIE: I know that people were arrested as a result of the information we got form Betty.
MR KOOPEDI: The question was, you do not have first-hand information that these people were arrested?
CHAIRPERSON: What Mr Koopedi is putting to you is that you do not know it as a fact, other than what you have been told.
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Now at this stage, after Betty had told you about the people, the activists in Cape Town, the activists in the Free State and reports being written out, how much did you pay her for that? Or did you pay her for that?
MR JANTJIE: No, it was not yet the time, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: And did she accept that, that she would tell you or give the information that you want and that you don't pay her? She didn't query that?
MR JANTJIE: She did not complain, Chairperson. Let me explain this question of payment, Chairperson. When the person starts working as your informer he'll give you information and then you would take that information, write it down on a daily basis, then after he has been a registered informer, it's then that now you can claim money for him in accordance with the job that he has done for you. Betty disappeared while we had already claimed money for her, but she was unable to receive that money because she had disappeared then.
MR LAX: How much money did you claim for her?
MR JANTJIE: Chairperson, I do not remember the amount.
MR LAX: Well was it a couple of thousand, was it a few hundred? Surely you remember that.
MR JANTJIE: It could not be a thousand, Chairperson, it could be a couple of hundreds.
MR LAX: Well, she led you to - well, not you personally but the police, to arrest a number of MK activists, according to you.
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Surely there were rewards to be claimed for those arrests and those rewards would be in the thousands, not in the hundreds?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, not as far as I know.
MR LAX: Well, the minimum reward was R750, but there was more than one person, that would have been a lot of money. We know that, we've heard it in other cases, it's nothing special, it's no secret. Or is it that you were pocketing the difference and paying her R250?
MR LAX: Well then what happened to however much times R750?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, I know nothing about that R750 you're referring to.
MR LAX: Yes. What did you do with the monies that you had claimed for her?
MR JANTJIE: We sent it back to our Headquarters.
MR LAX: Please carry on, Mr Koopedi.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
And at some stage Betty said to you that she thinks that she's being suspected by the ANC. Now what I need to know is, when was this? Did she tell you this before you brought her to Ladybrand, or after?
MR JANTJIE: That is before we took her to Ladybrand, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: And if I understand correctly, the reasons for you to go and take her from Lesotho in the manner that you did, was to try and counter that perception, is that correct?
MR KOOPEDI: What was the reason for taking her from Lesotho to Ladybrand?
MR JANTJIE: Our decision was to take her to Ladybrand, so that we could go and fetch those people whom she thought that they suspected her that she was working with us.
MR KOOPEDI: If I understand you correctly, the reason for going to Lesotho and "abducting" Betty, was to try and convince some people that in fact she has been abducted and she did not walk on her own and she has no links with the Security Forces. Is that it?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Right. You then took her - perhaps if you could explain what actually happened when you took her, or when she got into your car. In your evidence-in-chief you state that you found her not far from her house, you indicated the street just behind me, which I believe Chairperson, could be about not more than a hundred metres. Now what I want to know is, when you met her just next to her house, what happened, did you drag her into the car, did she go into the car on her own, what happened?
MR JANTJIE: No, we did not drag her to the car, she came voluntarily into the car.
MR KOOPEDI: And when you drove off, was there a spinning of tyres, or you just drove off normally and went to your destination?
MR JANTJIE: No, we just drove normally from that place.
MR LAX: Can I just interpose if you'll allow me, just one thing.
I wasn't clear about this, but had you arranged to meet her at a specific time and on a specific date, in order for you to do this abduction?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR LAX: So she was waiting with her bag, ready for you to fetch her, basically?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, when we arrived there she came to us.
MR LAX: Yes, but she must have been waiting if you'd arranged the time and the date and the place.
MR JANTJIE: Yes, I agree, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: What was the arrangement? Was the arrangement that when you came for her there would be witnesses to see the abduction?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, we didn't make that arrangement, we didn't want people to see that we were abducting her.
MR KOOPEDI: Now how would it look like an abduction if no-one is arranged or tipped off to witness that, if no force is used to get her into the car? If the car drives off as normally as everybody does, how would that look like an abduction?
MR JANTJIE: We arranged that if there were people in that area, one of us would drag her to the car.
MR KOOPEDI: Did you know that there are people there or not?
MR JANTJIE: It could happen Chairperson, because we were going to fetch her on the street.
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, but my question is, when you got to this meeting point, did you check to see if there were people around?
MR JANTJIE: There were no people in the surroundings, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay, but I'll go back to the initial question. How would people know that this was an abduction if there has been no prior arrangement to have witnesses to it, if there's no force and there's no indication that something untoward is happening? How did you hope to send the message across?
MR JANTJIE: They will notice the way she is put in the car, it will look as if she did not do that voluntarily. If there were people in the surroundings.
MR LAX: Don't give up so easily.
You wanted to give the impression that you were abducting her, correct?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
MR LAX: Even if people didn't see her go, surely you would have wanted somebody to see that happened, so that somebody could say so and so has been abducted? Otherwise what's the point?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, that as not our aim to make people think that we have abducted her.
CHAIRPERSON: Have regard to page 10 of the papers
"We immediately had discussions with her and eventually jointly agreed that she would come to the Republic of South Africa in an operation that had to appear similar to an abduction and that afterwards we had to attempt to recruit all the other members of her cell as informers."
MR LAX: Now the internal logic of that statement is completely a contradiction in terms. And I say that to you on this basis, is that if it appeared she had been abducted, none of her colleagues would have wanted to go and be abducted too, because they'd all be terrified, because their Commander had been abducted. So how could you make it look like you were abducting her, as a way of getting other people to be recruited with her? It just doesn't make sense at all.
CHAIRPERSON: Because it goes further, the sentence, just to complete the paragraph
"For apparent reasons it would limit her risks as an informer."
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: But what you have been asked here is, if you come there, there's nobody who sees her, she comes, walks into the car, you drive off normally, how would that now limit her risk as an informer? How would that risk limit that? Because what I understand you to be saying is that when you realised that she was becoming doubtful, that you arranged this so-called abduction and the reason therefore was that people must see that no, she has been abducted and people will suspect her to be an informer, that she has been abducted by other people. That's my understanding. But you are asked that, if none, because from what you've been asked by Mr Koopedi, there is no indication that that "abduction" took place. It was prearranged and nobody was there, she came voluntarily and the car drove off normally.
MR JANTJIE: I will explain it in this way, Chairperson. In trying to make it appear as if Betty has been abducted, our aim was that if there were other people in her cell in the surroundings, it should look to them as if Betty has been abducted. That is why when we realised that there were no people in the surrounding, she came voluntarily into the car and drove with us. We did not intend to make it look to anybody on the street, look as if Betty had been abducted, because we had already information that there was already a suspicion that she was working with us. We wanted it to look as if we have abducted her, she did not come with us voluntarily.
CHAIRPERSON: Because this was prearranged, why didn't you make it that she calls one of her cells mates to be present and you stage this abduction? Because we've heard, if I follow you, it's that even this particular day this was prearranged with Betty. I don't know if I'm mistaken about that.
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson, we could not arrange for one of the people in her cell to be present, because we had not yet reached that point where we could know the whereabouts of other members of her cell.
CHAIRPERSON: You see what surprises my colleague here and Mr Koopedi, is that now how would people know that Betty had been abducted, because you wanted to dispel these suspicions that she was an informer working with you people? Now this prearranged rendezvous and picking up time would appear to be meaningless, because it would appear Betty left with other people she knows. You see the difficulty they are having and that now comes back to me.
MR JANTJIE: Chairperson, what I'm saying is what we decided upon, myself and the people who were working with me.
MR LAX: You see you didn't know, for example, and surely you must have considered this, you must have considered that because she was under suspicion, that somebody would be keeping her under surveillance. Isn't that logical to assume?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, we didn't make an arrangement for that.
MR LAX: Well you see, it didn't even occur to you as part of your plan. Is that what you're saying?
MR JANTJIE: We didn't make such arrangements Chairperson, as you say.
MR LAX: I'm saying it didn't even occur to you that she might be under surveillance by her own people.
CHAIRPERSON: Now this information which you received that she might be suspected to an informer, where did you get that from?
MR JANTJIE: The first person that we used as our informer is the person who told us that Betty is having problems about her co-comrades who had a suspicion on her that she was working with the people from the Republic of South Africa.
CHAIRPERSON: Now because she was now your informer as well, did you approach Betty with this information, and what was her response?
MR JANTJIE: She was also surprised by this, Chairperson.
MR LAX: She was surprised by this information?
MR JANTJIE: That is so, Chairperson, because it seems as if she also had a bit of information about that.
MR LAX: Well you see you told us earlier that she told you herself that she was under suspicion. You told us that clearly and I asked you a couple of questions about that at the time. So how could she be surprised if she was the one who was telling you that?
MR JANTJIE: What I'm trying to explain, Chairperson, is that the news that we were telling her is something that she already knew at the time.
CHAIRPERSON: But you've just said to us she was surprised by this kind of information, Mr Jantjie. Just a minute ago you told us that.
MR JANTJIE: Yes, I do agree with you, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Now how can you say this was within her knowledge as well, when she was surprised by this information?
MR JANTJIE: In short Chairperson, I would say Betty also had information that she was suspected, we also had that information, so that made her realise that the information that she had about the suspicion on her, it's the same information that we also had about this suspicion.
CHAIRPERSON: You may proceed. We are sorry to take this long Mr Koopedi, in interposing. We beg your pardon.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
Can you tell us from whom did you obtain this information that Betty's position as an informer might become known amongst her comrades?
MR JANTJIE: That is our informer in Lesotho.
MR KOOPEDI: Now did this informer know that Betty was your informer?
MR KOOPEDI: But this informer was able to say to you Betty's being suspected as an informer? Is that your evidence?
MR JANTJIE: That is what I'm saying, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: Now when you received this information concerning Betty's position and what may be revealed, where were you? Were you in Lesotho or were you in South Africa?
MR JANTJIE: Chairperson, we would meet with this informer in Lesotho and in South Africa, but I remember at that time we were in Ladybrand in South Africa.
MR KOOPEDI: Was this at the farm?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, in town, Ladybrand.
MR KOOPEDI: Now after receiving this information, how long did it take you to get to Betty and tell her that you have information that her position might be revealed?
MR JANTJIE: If I remember well we went there the following day.
MR KOOPEDI: That is the following day. After discussing this matter with Betty, when did the abduction take place? How long after discussing with Betty?
MR JANTJIE: It could be a day after or two days after, Chairperson.
MR KOOPEDI: And with whom amongst your colleagues or leaders, with whom did you discuss this matter?
MR JANTJIE: Everything concerning Betty involved myself, Jagga, Robertshaw and Mr Thulo.
MR KOOPEDI: Now you're saying that this matter was discussed with your senior, and is it your evidence that your senior also agreed with the plan that "go to Lesotho, if there's no-one on the street let her come in willingly into the car, but we want it to look like an abduction"? Is that what your superiors agreed with?
MR JANTJIE: Everything that we discussed we reached an agreement about it.
MR KOOPEDI: Okay. You are now at the farm - perhaps just before that, before you actually "abduct" her, did you know ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: It is in quotes. He's also put it in quotes, page 10.
MR KOOPEDI: I prefer putting an emphasis on that, Chairperson. And perhaps one might explain why. My understanding of abduction is that it has to do with the taking away of a minor with the intention to marry that minor or to have sexual intercourse with that minor without the parents' permission, and that is why at all times ...(intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: No, no, what I was simply saying to you is, he's also put the abduction in quotes on page 10, the third paragraph. That "daai ontvoor" is in inverted commas. That's all I was saying.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, Chairperson.
MR LAX: Sorry, let's just say this Mr Koopedi, that the Act, our statute uses the word "abduction" within the context of a gross violation of human rights. It's a gross violation of human rights. It's defined as killing, abduction, torture and other severe ill-treatment of a human being. And so it's, I think within that context that one is then using the term, not in its legal/technical/criminal law context, which is in terms of minors and that sort of issue.
MR KOOPEDI: Thank you, I'm indebted Chairperson.
Now before this abduction, did you have information on Betty's cell, the number of people in that cell, their names?
MR JANTJIE: We knew everything about Betty, following the information that we got from our informer.
MR KOOPEDI: I am referring to the cell or the unit which Betty was commanding, do you know who else was in that unit?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, we didn't know.
MR KOOPEDI: And you didn't ask Betty this?
MR JANTJIE: She told us about the cell herself.
MR KOOPEDI: But when was that, when did she tell you about the cell?
MR JANTJIE: That is when we were already at the farm.
MR KOOPEDI: Now here's my question. Before taking her out of Lesotho, you had no knowledge, or did you have any knowledge on the cell she had, the number of people in her cell, their names, their ages, their capabilities. Did you anything about Betty's cell?
MR JANTJIE: No, Chairperson, there was nothing that we knew about Betty's cell at that time.
MR KOOPEDI: What I find strange is that at some stage you agreed, or you promise Betty to help her, tell her that you are MK, you have been sent in to assist her, when in fact you don't know how many people are in her cell. From your evidence you don't even know that there's anyone in the cell, how would she have believed you all along?
MR JANTJIE: Chairperson, what was of importance to us was to get the names of the people who were already in the country and where they were situated in the country and what they were doing in the country.
MR KOOPEDI: So you were not interested in knowing about her cell, you were only interested in knowing what she knows about the people in the country?
MR JANTJIE: We would only know about Betty's cell afterwards, what was important to us were the people who were already in the country.
MR KOOPEDI: Chairperson, I don't know if this would be an appropriate time for an adjournment and if so, what directions do we take?
CHAIRPERSON: Are you saying adjournment for the day, or a short adjournment?
MR KOOPEDI: I normally hear you are very particular about other participants in the process every time it strikes 4 o'clock, and I was referring to an appropriate time for an adjournment for the day.
CHAIRPERSON: No, I indicated earlier today when we met that we would go up to five. Yes, when we were in chambers, I don't know if you heard me. You were present.
MR KOOPEDI: Yes, I was. Therefore it's not an appropriate time?
MR KOOPEDI: I can relax. Thank you, Chairperson.
MR VISSER: What about a short adjournment?
CHAIRPERSON: Ja no, we could have a short adjournment. We'll adjourn for five minutes.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, we took more than the five minutes I had promised before we would restart. I have indications that Mr Koopedi is still going to be very long with Mr Jantjie and I see no reason why we should sit later than this if he's not going to complete his cross-examination today. We will adjourn this matter until tomorrow morning at 9a.m. So I formally adjourn for the day.