CHAIRPERSON: Good morning. My colleagues are taking off their jackets in response to the weather and nothing else, it's not indicative of any state of mind, and you're welcome to do so if you wish to.
For the record, it is Tuesday the 10th of October 2000, it is a continuation of the sitting of the Amnesty Committee, in Nelspruit. The Panel is constituted as would be apparent from the record. Ms Coleridge is the Leader of Evidence. The first series of applications that we'll be dealing with are those in respect of Mr Nortje. Mr Rossouw, are you going on record on behalf of the applicant?
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman, that's correct. Mr Chairman, I represent Mr Nortje, as well as the other two applicants who will testify today, Bosch and Fourie. Mr Chairman, with your leave I would call Mr Nortje. He will testify in Afrikaans and we'll start with the Vryburg Church incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Thank you, Mr Rossouw.
WILLEM ALBERTUS NORTJE: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, you may be seated. Please proceed, Mr Rossouw.
EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman.
Mr Nortje, your copy of your amnesty application appears before you, could you please go to page 24 in the bundle, is that the beginning of your amnesty application?
MR ROSSOUW: And do you confirm the content of it and the background as summarised up to page 38?
MR ROSSOUW: Then Mr Nortje, I would like to take you to your initial amnesty application which was submitted in handwriting on page 39, do you also confirm the content thereof?
MR ROSSOUW: And on page 41, just for commencement I will refer to paragraph (d) at the very top of the page, where the request is to indicate whether or not you benefited financially or in any other way and you stated there that you received financial remuneration, as well as a promotion in rank. Could you indicate to the Committee whether or not that response has anything to do with the incidents for which you have applied for amnesty for today?
MR NORTJE: No, it is not applicable to today's applications.
MR ROSSOUW: Could you briefly tell the Committee to which applications it indeed applies.
MR NORTJE: There were incidents for which I received remuneration and that is why I stated it as such and the promotion came at another stage. It wasn't specifically for this case, but I assume that it was a promotion in rank. It was in 1991 when this took place.
MR ROSSOUW: Is it correct that you, where applicable, applied for other amnesty cases?
MR NORTJE: Yes, I have done so.
MR ROSSOUW: Then Mr Nortje, you had a general annexure to your initial amnesty application, which appears on page 42 to page 43, is that correct?
MR ROSSOUW: And then with regard to this specific incident your amnesty application was supplemented after consultation and this can be found on page 44.
MR ROSSOUW: Then to get to the Vryburg Church arson incident, which took place in 1987, could you tell the Committee where you were working at that point and what your rank was.
MR NORTJE: I was a Sergeant and we were working in the Mafikeng environment when Mr de Kock telephoned us, he was the Commander at that stage, and he notified me that we should prepare, that we were going through to Ovamboland, but that we would stop at Vryburg. I cannot recall whether he mentioned it to me at that point, or whether he told me later, but there was a stage where we stayed over at a farm near Mafikeng, and he arrived there and we drove to Vryburg the next morning. I think on the way there he told me that Gerhard Bruwer from Vryburg had a request regarding a Church which was giving them problems or something and that we were supposed to burn the Church, but he didn't tell me specifically what the plan was. I knew why we were going to Vryburg.
MR ROSSOUW: In other words, you were a part of a team of C1, Vlakplaas members which was working in Mafikeng and Mr de Kock was still in Pretoria?
MR ROSSOUW: And this Mr Bruwer that you have referred to, was he the Commander of the Vryburg Security Branch?
MR NORTJE: That is correct, he and De Kock were friends.
MR ROSSOUW: And according to the information which was conveyed to you, Mr Bruwer requested Mr de Kock to assist him and he then contacted your group and you went with him.
MR NORTJE: Yes, there were two objectives. The one was to go to Ovamboland, this would have happened anyway, and on the way there we would have gone to Vryburg and stayed there for the day or for the night, we would have done the job and then continued on the Journey.
MR ROSSOUW: And when you arrived in Vryburg, did you have a meeting? Did you receive any instructions there?
MR NORTJE: Mr de Kock and Mr Bruwer had a discussion, I cannot recall whether I was part of that discussion, but I know that it was about the Church. Or it was actually the building adjacent to the Church. It was a printing press hall that they were using to print propaganda material, placards, T-shirts. It was either the UDF office or it was some or other affiliate to the UDF, but it was causing problems for the Vryburg Security Branch, apparently.
MR ROSSOUW: And what instructions were given to you, what did you have to execute?
MR NORTJE: I would recall that Mr de Kock sent me to purchase the petrol and I would recall that I bought three or four 5 litre plastic cans in town somewhere, I think it was at the Co-operative, and I filled them with petrol, because it would have been our plan to break the place open, to enter the place and to douse it with petrol and then to set it alight.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you know where this church building was?
MR NORTJE: No, we didn't know at that stage yet.
MR ROSSOUW: And how did you arrive there?
MR NORTJE: When it began to get dark, I would recall it was approximately at 9 o'clock that evening, one of the Security Branch members accompanied us and identified the place to us. We stopped on the highway and walked through a veld to a residential area, we went in among the houses and then we arrived at the Church.
Subsequently I was at the place, but I didn't know it very well from that side, because it was from the opposite side. I know that there was a small Church and that there was a building adjacent to this Church, and we were shown that that was the building. I cannot recall whether the Security Branch member accompanied us up to the building itself, but we saw the premises and we entered.
MR ROSSOUW: Could you just tell the Committee how you managed to enter the premises.
MR NORTJE: I'm not certain how we gained access, whether we kicked the door in or whether we broke it open or broke the lock, but I know that I entered the room. There was a photocopying machine there, a photostat machine and then on the walls there were posters and all sorts of things with ANC slogans of that time, and we poured the petrol out. I'm not sure whether I assisted in pouring the petrol out, but we took the photostat machine with.
I don't know if Mr de Kock said that we were supposed to take it, or whether we just took it in the heat of the moment, thinking that it could be used. We carried it out, and somebody, it could have been, I'm not sure, allowed the petrol to run for a distance. We set it alight and then ran away.
MR ROSSOUW: Although you cannot recall who precisely did what, could you possibly recall by name which of the persons were with you in the building? Was Mr de Kock in the building with you, for example?
MR NORTJE: I'm saying he would have. I believe that he and I opened the door together and that we went in together, because we had to see what was going on inside. There were others members as well, Mr Bosch was there. I would also place Mr Jaap Raap on the scene and in the building, but Mr Bosch and I discussed it and he told me that he is certain that Mr Jaap Raap was there as well, but I cannot recall precisely who was there. There may also have been one or two additional members. I think that we were five members or persons who entered the premises and doused it with petrol and then set it alight.
MR ROSSOUW: And if you refer to members, do you refer to Vlakplaas, C1 members?
MR ROSSOUW: Were there members of the Vryburg Security Branch who went with you into the building?
MR NORTJE: I cannot recall it, I would recall that the Security Branch persons simply identified the place to us and then returned to the vehicle, because the idea was that the Security Branch members not be identified a the scene or near the scene, so that any fingers could be pointed to them after the fact. That was the idea, that's why they used us to do the job, so that they could divert any possible attention away from them.
MR ROSSOUW: And then on page 45 in the bundle, you state that the room was set alight by means of pouring out a 25 litre can of petrol in the room. You've referred to three or four 5 litre cans that you purchased, could you just cover that aspect with us.
MR NORTJE: I think that the 25 litre petrol can is not entirely correct, it makes more sense to me that we had black cans. I've thought much about this aspect, I would say that there were four or five 5 litre cans.
MR ROSSOUW: And the photostat machine, you said that it was carried out, that it was removed from the premises, what happened to it?
MR NORTJE: We carried it with us to the vehicle and placed it in the vehicle of the person who was waiting near the highway, the person from the Security Branch. We placed it in his vehicle, we climbed into out vehicles and drove to Upington and he departed.
MR ROSSOUW: So if I understand you correctly the photostat machine was not taken by Vlakplaas members or brought back to Vlakplaas, it went to the Vryburg Security Headquarters?
MR ROSSOUW: And you don't know what happened to it subsequently?
MR ROSSOUW: And you said that you drove to Upington, did you depart immediately after the operation for Ovamboland?
MR NORTJE: Yes, we went to Upington and stayed over there first and then we drove to Ovamboland. I cannot recall what time we arrived there, I think it was in the early morning hours, and then the following day we drove through to Windhoek.
MR ROSSOUW: So if I understand you correctly, the course of time was that on the same day that you were joined by Mr de Kock, you went to Vryburg, executed the operation and departed that very same evening for Ovamboland?
MR ROSSOUW: Then Mr Nortje, you are applying for your involvement in this incident, more specifically for burglary, malicious damage to property, aiding and abetting and the theft of a photostat machine, is that correct?
MR ROSSOUW: Were there any persons in the building?
MR NORTJE: No, and we did not expect to find anybody in the building.
MR ROSSOUW: And you didn't receive any reports of anybody having been injured during the incident?
MR ROSSOUW: With regard to the political objective, you have testified about the premises which was used as a printing press for the purposes of printing material in support of the ANC, do you support the contents of paragraphs 10(a) and (b) on page 46 of your application?
MR ROSSOUW: And then you fell under the direct command of Capt de Kock, and acted accordingly?
MR ROSSOUW: And you did not receive any remuneration for this particular operation?
MR ROSSOUW: Then I would like to take you to the following incident, the damage ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: Just before you continue, I just want to be certain of the time.
You state in your written application that it was approximately 11 o'clock that night.
MR NORTJE: It was late at night, because the idea was that there wouldn't be any people in the vicinity who could spot us, so if I said 9 o'clock, it may have been too early, I think it was a bit later. I do recall that it was very quiet, that no-one was out and about.
MR MALAN: And in your original application you stated that it was a 25 litre can, why wouldn't you have been more correct then than now?
INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone.
MR MALAN: Mr Mosiane testified yesterday in another application that he also made use of a 20 or 25 litre can of petrol to set fire to a Church and he was also part of Vlakplaas, do you have any knowledge of that size of can at least?
MR NORTJE: If I could explain. Whenever we purchased petrol it would be in 25 litre cans, but it doesn't make sense to me that we would have carried only one can, it makes better sense that we would have purchased separate smaller cans.
MR MALAN: Mr Nortje, you would recall that I've interrupted you during many other previous applications, not in order to construct what makes sense to you, but to establish what you can recall, so if you state now that it was a number of four or five litre cans, and I don't know how a five litre can looked because I don't believe I've seen one myself, aren't you busy with some form of construction?
MR NORTJE: That is not my intention, I am just trying to explain. I may have stated 25 litres, but it was 25 litres collectively, it may also have been 20 litres, but it was approximately 20 litres of petrol. It makes more sense to me that ...(intervention)
MR MALAN: I don't want to know what makes sense to you, I want to know what you recall.
INTERPRETER: The speaker's microphone is not on.
MR NORTJE: I cannot recall specifically.
MR MALAN: Then don't testify to us about what you cannot recall, you must state if you cannot recall something. Thank you, please continue.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Chairperson.
Then, Mr Nortje, I would like to take you to the next incident which can be found on page 46 and onwards, which is "Damage to the Motor Vehicle of ANC activist Galeng, in 1985".
Just for initiation, can you tell the Committee when you joined Vlakplaas.
MR NORTJE: It was approximately during August 1984.
MR ROSSOUW: And you came from Ovamboland.
MR ROSSOUW: You were a member of Koevoet.
MR ROSSOUW: And at that stage, who was the Commander at Vlakplaas?
MR ROSSOUW: And was Mr de Kock at Vlakplaas already?
MR NORTJE: Yes, that is correct.
MR ROSSOUW: This incident took place when Brig Cronje was still the Commander of Vlakplaas.
MR ROSSOUW: And you have stated that the incident took place in 1985, could you affix a closer time to this?
MR NORTJE: I would recall that it was in the beginning of 1985, because it was still before Mr de Kock assumed Command of Vlakplaas, because he took over in July.
MR ROSSOUW: Could you tell the Committee what the preamble of events was which led to Vlakplaas' involvement in this operation.
MR NORTJE: Once again, it was a case where Paul van Dyk and I were working in the Northern Cape, between Vryburg, Mafikeng and surrounding environment. I would say Vryburg, Kuruman and surrounding environment. And the Vryburg Security Branch approached us with a problem that they had with this person called Galeng, he was an attorney in town and he was involved with the UDF. They had arrested him a number of times, and at a certain stage they wanted to know if we could assist them, because they wanted to intimidate him, because there wasn't really anything that they could do to him.
MR ROSSOUW: Could I just interrupt you there, you said that they requested you, did they request you directly or did they reach you via that command structure?
MR NORTJE: The branch command at Vryburg, at that stage, requested us, or requested Paul van Dyk and I happened to be with him. I was new at the unit at that stage.
MR ROSSOUW: Can I just ask you what rank Mr van Dyk had.
MR NORTJE: He was a Warrant Officer.
MR ROSSOUW: Was he your senior?
MR ROSSOUW: Were you still a Sergeant at that point?
MR NORTJE: That is correct. I am not certain whether we returned to Pretoria first and were redeployed the following month, but Mr Cronje was informed regarding the situation and subsequently I believe that he would have issued his permission because no-one told us that we were not allowed to do it, and they were informed that we were going to do it.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you tell this to Mr Cronje, or was it Mr van Dyk?
MR NORTJE: No, I didn't, I was not present during the discussion but I do know that we basically had permission to continue with the operation, because we had the keys made in Pretoria.
MR ROSSOUW: Very well. Could you just tell the Committee how you had the key made, what were the events surrounding this?
MR NORTJE: The planning was conducted by the Vryburg Security Branch, because Galeng was in Kuruman at a certain point and they phoned him to come into the Security Branch office on that particular day. This was before the vehicle was taken. Then the plan was to make a copy of his car keys.
MR ROSSOUW: And how did this happen?
MR NORTJE: Mr van Dyk had a device with him with which you could make a clay print of a key and then you could manufacture a proper key from that print. He took the key and inserted it and then we had a copy. We drove back to Pretoria and had the key made at Technical, the key was cut at technical and then we drove back to Vryburg.
This took place during the course of two days, because we came here and then we drove back the same day and on the following day we took the car, or perhaps it was the day after that. The car was parked in front of the offices of Mr Galeng, in Vryburg, and we sent Almond Nofomela to go and take the car.
MR ROSSOUW: Very well. I just want to point out to you, on page 47 of your amnesty application you stated that Albert M eventually stole the vehicle.
MR NORTJE: No, that is entirely incorrect, it was Nofomela. There is no such person.
MR ROSSOUW: Therefore it was a typographical error?
MR ROSSOUW: Does a person such as Albert M exist?
MR NORTJE: No, no such person exists.
MR ROSSOUW: And after the vehicle was stolen by Nofomela, what did you do furthermore?
MR NORTJE: We conducted observation and saw when he took the vehicle, because the local police didn't know about our activities, only the Security Branch knew, so we dealt with it very cautiously. He took the car and started driving. We told him to take the Revelo road. We drove via that route through the Botswana border and at Severne there's also a police station, it's close to the Botswana border, we entered Botswana and this was already late afternoon/early evening, I think it was already getting dark, and we pulled the car into the bushes, doused petrol over it and set it alight.
MR ROSSOUW: Where did you get the petrol from?
MR ROSSOUW: Can you recall how it was transported and in what sort of container?
MR NORTJE: I would recall that it was a 25 litre can. That could be a possible reason for my confusion, but it was definitely one can. I remember that Paul stood next to the car and doused the petrol over and inside the car, like this.
MR ROSSOUW: Mr Nortje, you are applying for damage to property, theft of a motor vehicle.
MR ROSSOUW: And then with regard to the political objective, do you confirm the contents of paragraph 10(a) and (b) on page 48 of your application?
MR ROSSOUW: And at all times you acted under the direct command of Mr Paul van Dyk.
MR ROSSOUW: Did you receive any remuneration for your participation in this action?
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you Mr Chairman, that's the evidence-in-chief.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW
CHAIRPERSON: Are those the only incidents that Mr Nortje is applying for here?
MR ROSSOUW: Yes, Mr Chairman, in respect of the motor vehicle - sorry, those are the incidents that the applicant's applying for.
CHAIRPERSON: Very well. Ms Coleridge.
MS COLERIDGE: Thank you, Chairperson. I just want to place on record that for the Vryburg incident, Mr de Kock was notified, Gerrit Bruwer was not notified, Chairperson. We believe he worked for the Security Branch in Vryburg and he's not working for the SAP any longer, Chairperson, so we had difficulty in tracing him.
And then for the motor vehicle, Mr Paul van Dyk was notified. Albert M, we only discovered now that it was Nofomela, so he was obviously not notified regarding this incident, Chairperson.
And then for the Vryburg incident we believe that no-one was injured in regard to that matter.
MR MALAN: Can you tell us whether you managed to liaise with Mr Galeng, the attorney?
MS COLERIDGE: Chairperson, attempts were made to track down Galeng, we wrote to the ANC branch and we didn't get a response regarding that, but now there's more details regarding that he was an attorney and that was not available to us, so I could even just contact the Law Society and just check whether we could get hold of him in that respect.
And then it's also a non gross human rights violation, but obviously because it's a public hearing the Commission will definitely, with this new information, notify and try and attempt to again get hold of Mr Galeng.
MR MALAN: He will certainly be a victim in terms of the Act, so we will need his particulars please.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS COLERIDGE: Yes. Thank you.
I just want to ask you a few questions in relation to the Vryburg Church, just in terms of the theft of the photocopying machine. Who gave you instructions to do that?
MR NORTJE: As I have stated, I cannot recall whether Mr de Kock said to take the machine, or whether we took it in the heat of the moment, but it was something that we could carry out which could be used later. I think that was our reasoning. It was with his permission. As I have stated he didn't say to leave the thing. I cannot say precisely whether he said: "Take the thing", but it was with his knowledge and with his permission that we took the machine, because we could carry it.
MS COLERIDGE: And then you stated that the machine was used at Vryburg Security Branch.
MR NORTJE: I cannot say whether it was used there, because I never saw it again. We simply placed in the vehicle of the security branch person that evening and he drove off with it. We never saw it again, we never made any enquiries about it afterwards.
MS COLERIDGE: Why I'm asking you is because Mr Bosch says that eventually the photocopy machine was destroyed at Vlakplaas. I can refer you to his ...
MR NORTJE: I don't know, I don't know about that. I cannot agree with it, I cannot say whether it took place as such. I cannot recall that this took place, but we didn't take it with us, I didn't take the machine to the farm and I cannot recall that the machine was picked up at a later point. I'm not certain.
CHAIRPERSON: While you were on your way to the premises, what was the plan, was it to burn the place down? Was that the basic plan?
CHAIRPERSON: Please switch on your microphone.
MR NORTJE: Yes it was the plan.
CHAIRPERSON: To burn the place down?
CHAIRPERSON: And the plan was not to steal anything from the premises?
CHAIRPERSON: Was this something that occurred in the heat of the moment at the scene of the incident?
CHAIRPERSON: You didn't know what you were going to find in the premises, except that you had an idea that it was being used to produce documents and propaganda?
MR NORTJE: I think they said there was a printing press in the place that they were using to make these documents with, but I think that we took the machine in the heat of the moment, it wasn't part of the plan.
CHAIRPERSON: And you say that you cannot recall that De Kock specifically and expressly instructed you to take the machine, but that you do know that he didn't stop the process?
CHAIRPERSON: Do you know whether there was any objective with the theft of the machine?
MR NORTJE: No. We might just as well have burnt that as well.
MS COLERIDGE: In relation to the Galeng incident, which persons from the Technical Unit was involved in the cutting of the key?
MR NORTJE: Mr Japie Kok and Kobus Kok were the people who were the specialists who did those types of things. I do no think that we told them what it was for, I think we just asked them to make this key because they've got a certain type of metal that they use to make that form and they were the only ones who could do it. I do not think we informed them about it, what the purpose was for it.
MS COLERIDGE: Was there any plan to eliminate Mr Galeng?
MR NORTJE: No, there was never such a request or instruction.
MS COLERIDGE: And then just one last question in relation to Jaap Raap, which branch did he fall under?
MR NORTJE: He was also at Vlakplaas, he was the builder at Vlakplaas, but he was also a policeman though. The reason why he was at the scene was because he drove with us to Ovamboland. He drove a specific vehicle and that's how he ended up at the scene. He was taken with.
MS COLERIDGE: And Mr Cronje - did you report the Galeng incident to Mr Cronje?
MR NORTJE: Not personally, but Mr van Dyk did report it.
MS COLERIDGE: How do you know that?
MR NORTJE: It is difficult to say if I was present or if there was a phone discussion or how it was reported, but he reported it, because he knew about it.
MS COLERIDGE: And who was more senior, yourself or Mr van Dyk?
MR NORTJE: Mr van Dyk was my senior.
MS COLERIDGE: Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS COLERIDGE
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, Ms Coleridge. Has the Panel got any questions?
ADV SANDI: No questions from me, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: Re-examination, Mr Rossouw?
MR ROSSOUW: I have none, Mr Chairman.
NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Nortje, thank you, you are excused.
MR ROSSOUW: Thank you, Mr Chairman. I beg leave to call the next application which is Mr Bosch. You'll find his amnesty application from page 1 in this bundle.