CHAIRPERSON: We are now going to start with today's lists and call Ms Soya, Nomilile Phyllis Tandiwe Soya.
REV XUNDU: Mr Chairperson I would like to swear her in.
NOMILILE PHYLLIS TANDIWE SOYA: (sworn states)
MS CRICHTON: Mr Chairperson I would lead her with questions.
CHAIRPERSON: Before you can do that, Rev Xundu?
REV XUNDU: We are aware that there are two witnesses who have applied to contradict what has been said by some of the victims and they've come here with their lawyers. We would like to cooperate with them as much as possible. If they can notify us at a time that is convenient for their cases to be taken so that we take those cases at those specified times. If those witnesses could report to the secretariat just in front there and indicate the time when they would like appear before the Commission, we would then arrange to arrange our schedule so that we take them that time or as close to that time as is possible.
Secondly we would like to request them to make available to us the statements which they are going to be submitting to the Commission so that it's photocopied and made available to the panel before they appear before us.
There are people who are going to appear in front of this Commission, their names have been named as the perpetrators, they would like to contradict what was said by the victims. We are aware that there are two people who notified us that they would like to appear in front of us today. They are here with their legal representatives, we would like to reduce costs for their legal representatives, we would like them to indicate to our secretary that they are here and to indicate the time that they would like to appear in front of the Commission so that we can change our schedule in order for them to appear in the time that they would prefer to appear. We will also like them to submit statements to the members of the panel to make five copies for the members of the panel so that when they appear before us we would have their statements. Thank you.
REV XUNDU: Mrs Nomilile, you have given us your story in your statement. Can you please briefly give us a picture or a situation at that time so that when we lead you with questions we have a background. Please continue.
MRS SOYA: Mr Chairperson and the panel of the Commission, as the young man before me has already said that at that time here in Grahamstown there was a state of emergency. The youth did not attend schools. As a result the parents were disturbed by this, they tried by all means to persuade children to go back to school. It was then that the peace-makers were formed because there was a parents' meeting at one of the schools but I don't remember the date.
At that meeting it was concluded that the police have to be asked to take children to school here in Chosa Township and in other surrounding townships.
REV XUNDU: Who formed the organisation of the peace-makers, was it parents?
REV XUNDU: Did they see the grievances of the students as being reasonable or what?
MRS SOYA: The parents did not see the grievances of the students as reasonable but as I'm looking at the situation they were not aware, they did not understand what the students wanted because myself, at the time I was not aware of what was going on. We did not think that they would not want to attend school at that time.
REV XUNDU: You saw that the police were peace-makers?
MRS SOYA: Yes at that meeting we decided that we are going to ask the peace-makers to persuade the children to go back to school. The went to the police, the parents decided to ask peace-makers, not the police because the police the police might shoot the children.
REV XUNDU: There was then a meeting with the peace-makers and the students, the peace-makers advising the students to go back to school?
MRS SOYA: No it was not such an organisation, it was an organisation of parents in the township, they did not consult with the students.
REV XUNDU: You mean they did not consult the students altogether because the students have their organisation?
MRS SOYA: The peace-makers also tried to make peace.
REV XUNDU: Did the executive of the peace-makers and the Students Executive Committee consult with each other?
MRS SOYA: According to my knowledge I did not hear it like that. I did not know whether there was cooperation between the two. But they just wanted to persuade the students to go back to school.
REV XUNDU: Mr Soya, did he have a position in the peace-makers?
MRS SOYA: No he was just a member because at home I asked him because he would be visited by peace-makers members. I would ask him whether he was a member, he would deny it but I found out later that he was a member of peace-makers.
REV XUNDU: In your statement you said that on the 14th of May 1980 the police together with the peace-makers, they wanted these children to go from their schools, the peace-makers chased the scholars from their schools, they were chased by the police and the peace-makers. But this is contradictory because you are saying that you wanted, the peace-makers wanted the children to go back to school. What was exactly happening?
MRS SOYA: There were many police in the township and they were not there in Chosa, the police did not - the peace-makers came then trying to chase these children to school. The children were from the Andrew Moyaka School. When the police arrived in that process they beat children up. It was just confusion.
REV XUNDU: The people who testified here before they said that the police were disturbing everything, they were not making peace, what is your view about that?
MRS SOYA: The peace-makers were parents, they wanted their children to go back to school. The police came, they disrupted all this, they assaulted the children and the children tried to fight back and the peace-makers ran away. REV XUNDU: The police wanted to use the peace-makers to oppress the children?
REV XUNDU: This created a conflict because the children saw the peacemakers as collaborating with the police?
MRS SOYA: Yes because I was on the children's side. I thought that this was a mistake.
REV XUNDU: Mr Soya then got injured at that time. The children hit him with pangas and he died.
MRS SOYA: Yes they were chasing them, the children ran away but at some point they came back and they fought back. Some parents ran away but I think my husband couldn't run away, but as a result of that they found him.
REV XUNDU: Did he instantly or did he die in hospital?
REV XUNDU: Was there a charge laid?
MRS SOYA: I went to an attorney, Mr Chubb, for advice, I did not know what to do. I was just there for legal advice because I wanted to know what to do. He told me, but firstly I went to Mr Dullar, Mr Dullar referred me to another attorney because he said that the parents of these children were his clients. He showed me their photos, he showed me photos of parents who were beaten up by these children, he told me that he cannot take my case, he will refer me to another attorney. He showed me another attorney's office in the next street, and he told me to choose one lawyer. I then chose Mr Chubb. Mr Chubb said that this was a State case, he cannot accept my case.
REV XUNDU: What then happened, were they sentenced?
REV XUNDU: Who witnessed all this?
MRS SOYA: There were witnesses who were with my late husband and I met them in court. I did not know who informed and how were they informed.
REV XUNDU: What was happening to these children, were they protecting their rights or were they just criminals?
MRS SOYA: These children were fighting for their rights. REV XUNDU: Many people, as you were listening yesterday if you were here, there was this conflict between the police and the people, when a house was burnt the police wouldn't go to that house to observe but in this case they took part because they were working together with the peace-makers.
MRS SOYA: Yes now it is clear although it was not clear to me before. I just saw that there were many witnesses and even those witnesses some of them I didn't know them before, I just saw them in court.
REV XUNDU: In the court of law you were compensated in that these children were sentenced, eight out of nine were sentenced, the government sentenced these people but you have a request that you want an investigation and to find out if justice prevailed in court. Weren't you satisfied because these children were sentenced in court?
MRS SOYA: My request was on one child because at the time of this court case it was claimed that there was one stone which killed my husband and the person who did this was this one child who was not sentenced.
REV XUNDU: So in other words you want this child - you say that he was mentally disturbed at the time?
MRS SOYA: There was an attorney from Port Elizabeth, I am not sure whether it was Strydom, he said that all the eight children said that it was this ninth child who killed but I was not in court at that time because when the proceedings continued the lawyers advised me to go out. It was then said that all the eight children claimed that this stone was thrown by the ninth child who was mentally disturbed at that time.
REV XUNDU: Would you find something else in someone who is mentally disturbed?
MRS SOYA: No at the time I was not sure if he was the one who was mentally disturbed and I'm not sure even today.
REV XUNDU: In other words what would you like us to recommend to the President?
MRS SOYA: I can't say anything, the President will see what to do for me.
REV XUNDU: Is there peace between yourself and the parents of these children, or is there conflict between you?
MRS SOYA: There was no peace then on their side, on my side I didn't have a grudge against them, I forgave them, even today.
REV XUNDU: So between yourself and the parents of these children there is no conflict?
REV XUNDU: Thank you Mr Chairperson I will hand over to you.
MS CRICHTON: Mrs Soya I am interested about the peace-makers, to hear from you, were you a member, did you ever attend a peace-maker meeting?
MRS SOYA: I was not a member and I never went to any of their meetings.
MS CRICHTON: Well one of the witnesses came from another organisation that - the reason why I'm asking you that question was to find out whether there were ever any other members of the community who were involved in the peace-makers other than parents. It seems to me that when an organisation like that is formed the wider community is also informed, the children were all over the area, they needed perhaps a wider representation, that's just a comment from me. But together with that I would also say that it seems so sad and so senseless that your husband died, because according to research that has come through we find that the children of Moyaka school were intending to go back to school the following week. So it seems so very sad that the wider community was not involved in the peace-makers, and that the police used them in the manner that they did.
The only other thing I wanted to ask you was whether you were advised at all to institute a civil claim regarding the death of your husband?
MRS SOYA: I tried to ask that attorney if it was necessary for me to institute a claim and the attorney I consulted said to me that these are children, they are unemployed and the point of instituting a claim is in order to get something from someone who has, albeit it somebody that works or somebody that owns property or something. I accepted that because if he said that these children wouldn't have anything to pay then I accepted it as such.
MS CRICHTON: Thank you very much Mrs Soya.
CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Soya I understand that this is a very painful story to relate and that you could become very emotional, but what I would like to know is whether these peace-makers were employed or whether they were volunteers?
MRS SOYA: From what I know they were volunteers they were not paid.
CHAIRPERSON: So your husband died and you did not receive any kind of compensation?
MRS SOYA: No there was no compensation.
CHAIRPERSON: These children who were found guilty do you know what their jail sentences were?
MRS SOYA: They received different sentences. I am not sure whether it was determined according to their age or according to the role which they played, some of them were given suspended sentences and others were given jail prison terms. I cannot remember how many years they were sentenced to.
CHAIRPERSON: Is there anyone you know who is still alive who was a member of the peace-makers that could perhaps elaborate to us as the Commission about their role? As you say they were notorious for cooperating with the police but we would like to know how they started this organisation. Do you know of anyone that could come and give us that information?
MRS SOYA: I do not have any information about them. They used to hide these things from us.
CHAIRPERSON: So they were a secret organisation?
MRS SOYA: Well evidently they were because we didn't know much about them, because as I said even with my husband I would want to know about people who would come and see him and if I asked him if he had anything to do with these peace-makers he would deny that.
CHAIRPERSON: Because even the name is something that indicates good intentions, I mean peace-makers and yet not much is known about them. We are going to ask our investigating team to try and find out more about these peace-makers.
Mamma Soya, we thank you for having come before this Commission to tell your story. It also assists us in obtaining a complete picture of incidents which took place here in Grahamstown. It is possible that without your input we would have - there would have been some incomplete spaces in our story and as Mrs June Crichton said we would like to extend our sympathy to you with regards to the death of your husband. We are going to attempt to investigate. I do not know if we are going to ever be able to do what you asked us to do here, that being that we trace the ninth child and find out why you never received any compensation for the death of your husband. We thank you for having come here.
We are going to take a short recess, a 15 minute recess. We will come back here after 15 minutes.