We call to the stage now our next two witnesses, Mkhonto Mfazwe and Monwabisi Maseti. We have asked you to come to the - we have asked you to come to the stage together because from reading the statements that you have made, we are aware that your experiences are fairly similar and that your testimonies will complement one another, so we welcome you and thank you very much for coming.
May I ask you to stand and swear the oath please. First one and then the other.
MKOHNTO MFAZWE Duly sworn states
MONWABISI MASETI Duly sworn states
Advocate Potgieter will facilitate your testimonies.
Mr Maseti, Mr Mfazwe, good morning again and welcome. I think will start with Mr Maseti, you are in front of the microphone, so we will listen to your evidence first and then we will deal with Mr Mfazwe.
Now as the Chairperson has indicated - your - you are both from Noupoort and your experiences are very, very much identical. Happened also roughly at about the same time and that is why we’ve got you both together, but we will start with you Mr Maseti.
Your first experience was during 1985 when you were detained in Noupoort. I will deal with that experience first and then move to this one. Can you tell us briefly - in 1985 were you in involved in the community structures in Noupoort, and if so what role were you playing and which structures were you involved in.
I was involved in the Noupoort Youth Congress - the abbreviation if NOYCO. It started in 1985. I was a secretary - public secretary.
While you were holding that position of publicity secretary of Noupoort Youth Congress - NOYCO - you were detained by the police in Noupoort, is that correct.
Yes, it is so. I was detained for fourteen days. I slept in Noupoort for one day. The rest of the days I spent in Middleburg.
Now who detained you - which police detained you. Do you know them.
It was the security police from Oudsthoorn.
Were you first held at Noupoort and eventually you were taken to Middleburg. Now during that detention - that fourteen day detention - would you like to tell us what happened to you.
In 1985 there were no problems. I t is in 1986 that the problems started.
[Indistinct] period of detention - in 1985 - were you assaulted.
No I was not assaulted at all. Yes, I was questioned.
[Indistinct] were you questioned.
They wanted information about me chairing meetings and having spoken at funerals.
Were you also questioned about the United Democratic Front - UDF - and it’s officials in Noupoort.
I was asked about the UDF, because NOYCO was an affiliated group of the UDF.
I just go to bring this to your attention - just for you to deal with - it might be a mistake that has crept into your statement, but from the notes at my disposal, there is an allegation that you were beaten at the police station during your detention in 1985 - in fact with a sjambok. Is that - is that not during 1985 detention.
It is so. I was beaten up in 1985. I have made a mistake.
Now according to the statement - just to refresh your memory a bit further - you were questioned and the police also wanted to know about the UDF and you didn’t answer them. You refuse to answer them at first and that resulted in you being beaten.
Okay that is 1985. Let’s move on to 1986 which you have actually indicated that that was the one that was quite problematic, compared to 1985, which was not so bad. Perhaps before we go to 1986 - let me just ask you - you were detailed for fourteen days in total in 1985.
Yes, it is so. Yes, I was at school.
Did you manage to move back into school and did you manage to continue with your studies in 1985.
I was not able to continue with my studies.
That spell of detention interrupted you studies in 1985.
Did you go back to school in 1986 or what happened.
I did not go back to school in 1986. I went to Johannesburg. I stayed there for two months. I then worked for the UDF. I went to conferences, Cape Town, Johannesburg, all over.
Did you ever get back to your studies or did you have to give up your studies all together.
And whilst we’re talking about that - did you manage to complete all your studies or how far did you get with that.
I matriculated. After matriculating I went to Technikon.
Are you still living in Noupoort at this stage.
Thank you for that information. Now let’s go - let’s look at 1986 which was the more difficult detention. You were again detained in 1986 and you were held on Middleburg. Is that correct.
Yes, when the state of emergency was declared. That is when I was detained.
I was taken to Noupoort police station. From there they took us to Middleburg. There was twelve of us.
Now at Middleburg, you were interrogated. Can you tell us who interrogated you at Middleburg - which policemen.
Two policemen took us two vans. They drove us to Middleburg police station. When we asked the police station why they had arrested us - they said no we will hear at Middleburg. When we got there, they took photographs of us.
A security police from Oudsthoorn was involved. When we got to the prison in Middleburg, they said they detaining us for forty-eight hours. We stayed the forty-eight hours, after that the Major that was in charge, he told us that the Act that we have been arrested under was no longer active.
After the fourteen days, the Major in charge yet again told us that he received a fax - he said that the Act that we’d been arrested under is no longer functional. At the prison a security policeman from Oudsthoorn came - he questioned us. After he questioned us, he - I was taken into a car. They had put a plastic bag over my face. They took me a place - I think it was a farm, I was not sure. They tortured me there. They put me in water. When I was almost totally suffocated, they would take out the plastic bag. After that they took me back into the prison.
A UDF lawyer came, he questioned me about how we were handled at the prison. I told them that I had been assaulted . I had been assaulted by the police. I think it was the police from Oudsthoorn that assaulted me.
No, I do not. All I know is that they came from Oudsthoorn. They did not introduce themselves to me.
The name Carels - does that sound familiar to you.
That is the only security member I remember. He was there.
And he was involved in your interrogation and the tortures.
He was present when I was assaulted, but it is the Oudsthoorn police that beat me up.
You were actually taken out of the prison and taken to what you think was a farm to be tortured and to be thrown in the water.
What was the effect of that on your health.
My ear was badly affected - my right ear is totally deaf.
And psychologically - has that left any scars on you.
I am not affected - it is just my ear.
And has that affected your ability to keep a job in any way.
Yes, it has affected - it has affected my work. When I make an application form for a job, it causes problem. It’s an impediment.
So you are experiencing difficulty in getting a job as a result of your - the condition of your hearing.
Can I just ask you finally Mr Maseti - how old were you when you were detained that first time in 1985. Were you still at school.
Is there anything that you would like to add to your testimony before I go to Mr Mfazwe.
When the police had detained me, they took a book. There was a trunk full of books from Readers Digest. Also school books from Standard six to Standard 10 - those books belong to me. I ask the police to return those books to me please.
They took them from my home, yes sir.
During the 85 or the 86 detention.
Did they give you any receipt for the books that they’ve removed.
[Indistinct] throw it into the police vehicle and left with the books.
They searched my entire house and took all the books and put them in the trunk and left with them.
You never saw those book again.
[Indistinct] about those books. Did the police question you.
They did not ask me anything about the books.
Thank you very much. I am going to move to Mr Mfazwe and we listen to his testimony before I hand back to the Chairperson. And they might want to ask you some further questions Mr Maseti, but we will hear from [indistinct].
Perhaps Mr Maseti just your personal circumstances before I hand over to the Chairperson. Are you married of unmarried.
I am now going to hand to the Chairperson. Thank you very much.
I am sorry about the noise that you have to compete with - it’s quite a dramatic wind outside today. You have given us a very strong picture of the way in which in those years the authority figures of the time felt that they could do anything. That the state of emergency gave them powers to detain people without trials, hold them in solitary confinement, to subject them to physical torture.
And one of the things that we hope to do towards creating the kind of society in which that can never happen again. Community organisation like NOYCO was seen as centres of resistance that must be stamped out at any cost and I think that it’s important for us to remember that in every little town, those struggles of the people in organisations like NOYCO and others that were affiliated to the UDF and to other political organisation - other view points even - were all part of the contribution that brought about eventually in this decade the first democratic elections and the new government that we have.
So what you suffered was not for nothing. It was part of the struggle to build the new society. But we also now that you paid a heavy price - that although you say that you are reasonably well now, that experience does create an emotional impact on you and you have to rebuild your lives.
We wish you well in doing that and we hope that Mr Maseti you will be able to find employment because it’s all very well to talk about the new democracy, but until that translates into development for the small country areas as well as for the cities and jobs and better futures for the people, we won’t really be very far along the road to transformation.
But we thank you for the things that you did to help towards that process and for coming today to talk to us and to tell us what it was like to be young in Noupoort in 1985 and 1986. Thank you very much.