CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mogapi, good afternoon.
MRS MOGAPI: Good afternoon, Sir.
CHAIRPERSON: Please people, we are going to close the doors if this continues. Please settle down.
Mrs Mogapi, can you please introduce the young lady who is with you.
MRS MOGAPI: That is my sister's daughter.
CHAIRPERSON: I warmly welcome her too. Mrs Mogapi, you are coming from Tigane, Hartebeesfontein, which is not very far from here, it is a small - having driven many times through this place, I know that it is a very small town, almost like a village. You have come to talk to us about what happened on the 2nd of July 1992 and again on the 29th of March 1993, to your family members. Commissioner Denzil Potgieter is going to help you with your statement, but before I hand you over to him, can you please stand to take the oath.
ANNIE K MOGAPI: (Duly sworn, states.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Commissioner?
MR POTGIETER: Thank you, Commissioner. Thank you Dr Randera. Mrs Mogapi, good afternoon.
MRS MOGAPI: Good afternoon, Sir.
MR POTGIETER: You will be talking about two incidents as Dr Randera has indicated. The one is in 1992 and the other one KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
MR POTGIETER: And your evidence relates to the conflict, some of which we have heard about earlier, in the city between the IFP and the ANC members in Tigane.
MR POTGIETER: Now let us go to the first incident. The one where your home was attacked and it was in July of 1992. It is not clear on which day in July it was, but you can perhaps tell us. Let us speak about that first and tell us about that incident first.
MR POTGIETER: In 1992, the 26th of July, I remember very well, it was on a Sunday. Since the morning, the day was just fine, but towards sunset I heard songs outside. As I was listening to the music outside, there was silence. As I was still in the house I heard that our windows were shattered. I was in the big house, and I moved into the big house to investigate what was happening. I said to my mother - she was staying in the two-bedroomed house in the back yard and I said Mom, they are stoning the house. We went to see the other side of the house and we looked. Many of them had already run away. I saw two boys and one girl. I saw Peter Majing and I saw boy Schute and a girl called Fandele Lebeti. My father asked them what they were doing. These two boys attacked my father and they stabbed him with knives. When I saw blood flowing out of his body, I said to my mother please, run away. She was very old, she couldn't run. Peter got into the yard and he hit my mother with a fist. I didn't allow myself to see this. I saw two children playing under a tree. My sister's children. I called them to join them as we were running away. They came, they
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followed me. I locked them in a room and I said to my mother please, run towards my direction, otherwise we are all going to die. My father was walking along the street, as he was bleeding, and he was dizzy. We hid ourselves.
The two rooms that we were in was busy breaking, because they were throwing the stones. I was powerless. I did not know what to do I stopped the door with my hands. I wasn't aware that they were busy breaking the door with their knives and their pangas. After a few minutes I felt something on my body. I said to my mother can you please come and help me, they have got hold of me. The children were hiding under the bed because they were so scared. They pulled me out of the house, through this door that they have broken. I was crawling. I could still see Peter Majelo, and he lifted his hand and I saw a knife in his hand. He just put it on my head. I cried and I saw them running and I felt my head, there was blood. This blood was making me a bit confused. I didn't think of the police at that time. I jumped the fence and I went to see Mr Leponesa More. It was just a terrible situation in the township.
I ran to a direction where I could find the police. I couldn't see any of them. I ran and I couldn't see even one of the police vans. I went to a member of our organisation, the IFP and he said what is happening. I said oh, no, just look at myself, I am injured, the boys told me that they are going to burn the house, can you please call the police to quickly attend to this matter.
I was at that house, blood still flowing and the police came. They said to me what happened. They asked me where the children were. I said they are at home. We thought the police had gone home to protect the house, and yet, it was
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just a dream, nobody was protecting the house.
I was taken by Mr Pofolos' ambulance to the hospital. When I got to Sepong Hospital my mother was already there to be stitched. We came back then, but befor that my mother said to me listen, our house is destroyed; when I got out of the house it was burning. I said to her where are we going to spend the night. She said to me we have nothing left, my daughter, we don't have a house.
We went to a member of our party, Mr Motsugayo who accommodated us in that time of trouble. We spent our days at Mr Motsugayo's house, and the case went to court. For a long time, I think. It was two years, if I have to be specific, but to watch the end of this court hearing, I realised that it doesn't help because we don't have any furniture, we don't have any belongings any more. I will talk to my God and I will accept that these were the youth and because the IFP burnt the ANC houses. Maybe they were revenging and I just said it was a matter of politics.
I even volunteered to be the go-between the two groups, that is the IFP and the ANC. I remember the last time when there was a court case, there was a White woman who brought the two groups together. This woman said she was from Legal Wise. She asked these young studs, tell us what are you fighting for at Tigane. There was no answer, they were only laughing. This White woman said listen here, you can't tell tell us - isn't there anything you can tell us? It is so painful today to be homeless and some of your relatives have passed away. They still couldn't give an answer.
I said to this woman listen here, lady, as far as I heard rumours, people are fighting for freedom in Tigane and we didn't know what freedom it was, because people were
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running along the streets with dangerous weapons in their hands. You know just these two groups fighting each other. My son was working at the military base.
This woman said to me what do you think. I said madam, listen here, the ANC youth doesn't have any representative, but I am together with the youth of my party. Can we release these youth? Even if our houses are burnt, it is not a problem, these are the material things of this world. We will work for them, because they are still young, they do not understand what they were doing, can we let them go free, can we let them attend school. When the case was taken to the magistrate and it was just dropped. It was dropped. The magistrate said the case was just dropped. The attorney who was present at the court hearing was a member of the IFP. The case was dropped, as I have mentioned.
MR POTGIETER: Who were these people that attacked your house on the 26th of July 1992? To which organisation did they belong?
MRS MOGAPI: They were members of the ANC.
MR POTGIETER: And you have already said that you are a member of the IFP. Is that correct?
MRS MOGAPI: That's correct, Sir.
MR POTGIETER: Does that also go for the rest of your family?
MRS MOGAPI: They were the IFP.
MR POTGIETER: Now in that first incident, was it yourself, your mother and your father that were injured?
MRS MOGAPI: Yes, it was myself, my mother and my father. The other chlid only got a very small scar. And the other one was not injured at all.
MR POTGIETER: The house, was that burnt?
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MR POTGIETER: And the belongings in the house, were those also destroyed?
MRS MOGAPI: Everything was destroyed, Sir, nothing was left behind. The walls even fell.
MR POTGIETER: Now your father, what happened to him, was he also taken to hospital or what?
MRS MOGAPI: The same night as I arrived at the hospital, he was at the hospital. He also got a few stitches. Nobody spent a night in the hospital, we all came back.
MR POTGIETER: You all had stab wounds.
MRS MOGAPI: Yes, I was stabbed on the head. My mother was hit with a fist, she wasn't bleeding, but she was swollen in the face.
MR POTGIETER: Now why do you think this attack was launched on your house and on your family and yourself?
MRS MOGAPI: When they got into the yard, they went straight to my father and to my mother. There was no fight, there was nothing.
MR POTGIETER: Was your family involved in the conflict? We have heard evidence about a conflict in Tigane between IFP and ANC, we heard about "no-go" areas and we heard about people being killed. Now your family, was your family involved in that conflict?
MRS MOGAPI: No, the family was not involved in this conflict. I have mentioned that there was a boy, my first boy was working at the military base at Kommando and it was spread around the township that they don't like soldiers at all. After he was attacked, because he didn't know his attackers he said I will not lay charges because I didn't see my attackers.
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MR POTGIETER: Okay. Was it a big group of people that were involved in the attack on your home and on your family?
MRS MOGAPI: At that time they were many throwing stones, but the rest of them ran away as we approached, but the three that I have mentioned, remained behind.
MR POTGIETER: Now just to round off the issue that I have raised earlier. Do you think it is because of your membership of the IFP that you were attacked?
MRS MOGAPI: That is the reason. When Jonas realised that he was leading a hard life, he said to me Mom, I don't see any future here, it is better if I go to the IFP. I said to him man, I am afraid, please don't join this IFP. He said no, it doesn't help, I have to.
MR POTGIETER: What is the present situation in Tigane, is there still a conflict going on there between IFP and ANC people?
MRS MOGAPI: No, we live peacefully together. We went back to a normal life.
MR POTGIETER: Then there is another incident that you want to talk about. That is the year following on this incident that you just spoke about. It happened on the 29th of March 1993. It concerns the son of your sister, Jonas Mogapi. Would you like to tell us about that incident?
MRS MOGAPI: Jonas Mogapi's is my sister's child. He was doing Std 10 at Gaitoli High School. He was a very artistic person. At times he would even sit down and draw a picture of me. Every time he was finished with such a picture I would see that it was a picture of myself. There was this television film called Raikona on the television. Every time or every time after this film on TV, he would gather children around and he would teach them. He wanted
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prosperity for everybody. He wanted the young people to be artistic as he was.
Now at the time of the attack he left very early. He said to me he was going to the court of law. He was together with his friend. I don't think the name of the friend is written in the statement. It was Selele Petin. The two of them came to the court of law. But before they could leave, he said Mom, listen here, please pray with me, but if you don't see me coming back home, know that I am not coming back any more. At about four o'clock as I was lying at my place, I saw a person coming and when I looked at this person, I was staying in a very small shack, I only saw the back of the gun and I said what is happening now. This person said no, listen here, you have to run to a certain place, because Jonas has been killed. I said he was at the court of law, now what happened? This person said to me I do not know what happened, he is quiet, he is no more. I just kept quiet. I was so dizzy but I could run even though I was in that situation.
Another gentleman stopped me and said please, do not go to that place any more, the police will take the matter over. I went back, crying.
MR POTGIETER: Do you know who was responsible for the attack on Jonas Mogapi?
MRS MOGAPI: The people who are responsible are the ANC people, because he finished when he was on the offices. He was in a Kombi, then they made him to alight from the Kombi. They dragged him out of the Kombi. The people who were with him were able to explain that to us.
MR POTGIETER: In which part of the township were they when this happened?
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MRS MOGAPI: It was called the Makwateng, the old location next to our office.
MR POTGIETER: Was that a particular stronghold of a particular organisation, that particular part of the township?
MRS MOGAPI: Will you repeat your question, please, Sir?
MR POTGIETER: That part of the township where the attack happened, was it a stronghold of any of the two organisations, the ANC or the IFP?
MRS MOGAPI: It was the ANC area, Sir.
MR POTGIETER: And Jonas, did he belong to the IFP?
MRS MOGAPI: Yes, he joined the IFP.
MR POTGIETER: Is that, do you think that is the reason why he was attacked and killed?
MRS MOGAPI: Can you repeat your question, Sir?
MRS MOGAPI: Do you think that he was called becuse of the fact that he belonged to the IFP?
MR POTGIETER: Was there a court case about his death?
MRS MOGAPI: With regard to Jonas?
MR POTGIETER: That's right, yes.
MRS MOGAPI: With regard to Jonas' case?
MR POTGIETER: Was there a court case in connection with his death, his killing?
MRS MOGAPI: It is now that they have started with the court case. I was told that it would take place on the 15th of November.
MR POTGIETER: Are there people or do you know the people who are charged?
MRS MOGAPI: I do not know anybody, because when I asked the taxi driver he said it wasn't necessary, because he gave the KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
MR POTGIETER: How old was Jonas when he was killed in 1993?
MRS MOGAPI: He was 21 years, if I remember very well.
MR POTGIETER: Did you say that he was at school, doing his matric?
MR POTGIETER: And who was he living with, was he living with you and your mother and father?
MRS MOGAPI: He was staying with me. He was my sister's child but he was under my guardianship.
MR POTGIETER: Is his mother still alive?
MR POTGIETER: And where does she live?
MRS MOGAPI: She stays in 15/35 at Tigane township, towards Moscow area.
MR POTGIETER: Mrs Mogapi, I just want to hear if my colleagues want to ask you anything. Fazel Randera?
CHAIRPERSON: Mrs Mogapi, I just want to understand the complete picture. As I said in my opening remarks, Hartebeesfontein is such a small place.
CHAIRPERSON: In this area, that was the one community where conflict took place between supporters of Inkatha Freedom Party and supporters of the African National Congress. Can you just please try and explain to us how this happened or why it happened.
MRS MOGAPI: The conflict between the two groups was because of freedom. As I have mentioned they were fighting for freedom, which I did not understand, because we didn't know, because were not brought together as the residens of Tigane belonging to different groups, to be hold exactly what this
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freedom was. If we would have been brought together and a discussion was given to us about this freedom, maybe we could have avoided this conflict. But after deaths, after burning of the houses, after injuries, we came to know what freedom was because we were then told that the fight was because of freedom, people were fighting for freedom.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me try and put the question in another way, Mrs Mogapi. Were most of the people at that time, were they supporters of the ANC or of the IFP in Tigane?
MRS MOGAPI: The followers at the time - can you please rephrase it, I do not understand it.
CHAIRPERSON: Were most of the supporters - sorry. Were most of the people staying in Tigane, were they supporters of the ANC or the IFP?
MRS MOGAPI: Most of them were the supporters of the ANC. It was a dominant party.
CHAIRPERSON: You say you were a member of the IFP. When did the IFP come into Tigane?
MRS MOGAPI: If I remember very well, it was in 1990. Let me say 1991. I only saw the emergence of this party because this boy said to me aunt, it is better to join this IFP. I said to him have we such a party here? He said yes. I said to him no, I am scared of joining this party, where are they.
CHAIRPERSON: (Speaker's mike not on) ... ... talking. Remember we are here to listen to a story and if we keep on having laughter as she is talking, she may not want to speak as openly as she wants to. So please, respect that process. Sorry, Mrs Mogapi, can you carry on, please.
MRS MOGAPI: And I said to him Jonas, I am scared of joining this. I said to him where is this party. He said no, it is
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present in our township. Mr Mojake was the mayor of Tigane and I said to him Jonas, go, I don't want anything to do with this party, even if I read the newspapers, I get the shock of my life. He said it doesn't help because these people are threatening me, they are even intimidating me at school, I am on my own, and they come in a large group and the teacher cannot even stop them, because he is also afraid he would be killed. He said please, allow me to join a party of my choice, even I die, it is not your problem.
DR RANDERA: Thank you, Mrs Mogapi.
CHAIRPERSON: Anybody else? Tom?
MR MANTHATA: Mrs Mogapi, when he joined the IFP, what was its activities?
MRS MOGAPI: It was still a very quiet organisation, but after some time there was trouble, because the members of the IFP on the other side of the township, couldn't go to the south part of the township. Every time they want to walk free in the township, someone will be waiting for them to attack. Thereafter we saw people running along the streets with dangerous weapons.
MR MANTHATA: I do not know whether I understand you well or not. My question was: at that time what was the IFP doing? We are not yet at a point where we could say they were attacking or they were doing anything. We are here talking about the membership. What were they doing, their members.
The members of the UDF that have been here before you, clealry indicated that they were fighting against the high rents, they were fighting the oppressive education, they were fighting the councillors and they didn't want to buy in their shops, they were boycotting the shops. That is what they were doing. That is why I am asking you this question. KLERKSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
What was the IFP doing in the township?
MRS MOGAPI: At times when they were meeting, they would go to attend such meetings. They said to the people the people should pay their rent and the ANC people said no, no rent is going to be paid. That was the situation.
MR MANTHATA: When they were saying rent should be paid, were they satisfied with the tariffs?
MRS MOGAPI: I think they were satisfied.
MR MANTHATA: Let us go back to this person who was working at the military. What was his main reason to join the IFP? Was it because he was intimidated or he wanted to maintain his job?
MRS MOGAPI: He was a full-time member of the force and he was told that he must not wear the soldier's uniform. He said to them if I have to join you, what am I going to eat, how am I going to support my mother. They said to him your mother is going forfeit you one day.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mrs Mogapi, we have listened to the evidence that you gave and it has been said often before that the mandate instruction to this Commission is to investigate incidents of human rights abuse that happened on all sides of the conflict in the country. The Commission was not only formed to look at one side of the conflict. It is good to hear your evidence, to hear some perspective also from the side of people who were involved with the Inkatha Freedom Party. I have taken note of what you have said in regard to the present situation. You seem to say that at present things have normalised in the community. From all indications a very small community where it is one of those peculiarities of the past that you would have a bloody
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conflict, violent conflict tearing a small community like that apart. Of course, it is one of the indictments of the old system that it turned people against one another and communities split, often not along natural lines but through contrived conflict.
It is also often said that we should learn from these incidents and of course one of the lessons is that violence simply just leads to more violence and to even more violence. It has never really been a solution to any disagreement. Of course, if we listen to this kind of conflict that you have spoken about, it again re-emphasises the challenge that we have to look and to work hard at the issue of reconciliation and bridging the gaps and the divides that existed.
Thank you for coming. We have noted the evidence that you have given. We have noted the fact that in regard to one incident there is still a pending court case. I assume that in due course the Commission will learn of the outcome of that particular case. Thank you for coming.