CHAIRPERSON: Thank you for coming. I understand you have come all the way from the Freestate and we thank you for travelling such a long way. Before I ask you to tell us your story could you stand and take the oath please?
SPANKIE LESOTHO: (Duly sworn in, states).
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Lesotho, please be seated. Mr Lesotho, you are also ...
MR LESOTHO: Sir, I am having a problem. Can I get a Sothoe interpreter please?
CHAIRPERSON: Alright, have we got a Soethoe interpreter? Yes.
MR LESOTHO: It was on the 13th of May. Let me start afresh. In 1985 I was attending school at Banderial High School. I was doing standard ten at that time. There were a lot of problems about the principals and all the staff members. Those problems we had was, number one, corporal punishment where teachers were coming from outside who were beating the child with their fists. So we did not agree with that.
Then we started to form the SRC. It was then that the prefect system was in use and our idea of the SRC formulation was not taken up with the teachers. Then we decided that we have an independent body because we had a very strong belief that SRC is an organisation which relies
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One day my friend and I, Mr Kabinda, on a Sunday. We were accompanied by two friends who came from Soweto. They introduced themselves that they are from the Azanian Students Movement. Then they asked us many questions about politics. By that time we did not have a desire in politics. The way the Government of the day was oppressing the desires of the people. It was then that they were able to convince us, and we agreed with them, that we would mobilise at our school and that this organisation should be the big one because at that time there was no organisation in the township. It was my responsibility and Swazis. We organised together.
We began by recruiting Mogapi and discussing with other people and many students began to have an interest about this Azanian Students Movement. The other thing which made us to have interest was in AZASAM was. It seems this AZASAM organisation was not oppressed as COSAS was because even if we did not have many ideas about COSAS. So we decided lastly of frequenting the offices in Johannesburg.
Then we met one organiser called Sisis Biloy. They lectured us and gave us books and encouraged us that in the long-run we should try to recruit all the people to join AZAPO. In the middle of the year, it was August, we were able to see that we are becoming aware and becoming more informed. Then we decided that we should make suggestions about this movement in school.
One teacher who beat one child with a fist, we began with myself and Swazi to organise a meeting with school. Then we held that meeting and we wrote all the grievances at school. We listed many grievances at school that morning
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and we handed them to the principal in the assembly. When we handed that list to the principal during assembly the principal denied to us that grievance list. He informed the police and the police came to the school. When they arrived they released the dogs and threw us with teargas. We dispersed and ran away in the location.
At that time we began to organise ourselves to go and burn the teachers quarters where the principals are staying. It was then that I started to even spread in the township. Then shops were burnt and many delivery vehicles were denied entrance to the township. Then the police started to search for us.
The time when I was supposed to write my final exam, the police came to fetch me, Deon van Harden, Strydom and Skeepers. They took me and locked me in Potchefstroom. Then I was not able to write two papers. It went that way. At the time it was an opportunity for many youth to be encouraged to join.
In early 1986 we wanted to launch this organisation. When we wanted to launch this organisation in the hall at the Asisa Church, the police came and disbursed the meeting. We began to form groups. Then a certain group, some of the people who were in that movement was Goliath. The following day we heard that they went to the office to attack the administration block. A certain policeman called Mikey arrested him and he was killed. Thus, then everything started to create a situation of confusion and unrest.
We went on with our organisation and I was arrested many times. No one from AZASAM was trying to help with legal advices. It is then that they started to complain that you should leave this organisation because when you are KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
arrested nobody is prepared to pay or to help from that organisation. Then I left that organisation in 1986. I was the tailman at that time because we had an interim committee.
During the funeral of Moozie then the police were looking for me, I ran to Mabetla in Soweto. Around February I was detained six times because the police were coming to my house two to six times a day. Then the 15 youth members who were arrested. Then I went to SA Sisi to look for a lawyer and even to look for money for bail. The State demanded R1 000.00 for each. Then we went to financial institutions to look for money and they were able to help us with the money. Before we were collecting money in the location from the business people. Then we were able to collect R3 000.00 and R100.00 and something. The police took that money and locked me and said I have no right to collect money in the township. He said that I was detained, I was taken to the office in the township. They put me a certain thing, a bucket on my head and this white man called Leon van Heerden took water and put water in his hand and put that water in my ear and slapped me with his open hand. After that I spent about a month or two with my one ear being a little bit impaired. The police, all the time, were harassing me.
On the 12th of June 1986 a State of Emergency was declared. I was the second victim who was arrested. The first victim was Boy Marama. We were taken to Welverdien. Lisa Bagaai, Mr Monyosi and other people were brought in that area and then after a day we were transferred to Potchefstroom Prison. Whilst we were still there we had a
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greater desire to know more about politics. Whilst in prison we were educated about politics. Then we were writing poems. We were together with Stompie Sipei. We were drafting our poems, all of us in prison because documents were not allowed to enter the prison premises.
One day this policeman arrived in our cells at night coming to search. The documents they found on the bed or in ones property, they would compile a list of people who had documents. We were taken the following day and transferred to Rustenberg Prison. It was called Ramchane Prison firstly. That is where we were harassed by the police.
On the first day they did not give us food. In the morning we were taken by groups at about half past nine. We were taken to a certain mountain. It is not far from Pukeng, but it is a hidden area. It was the same as the building at Vlakplaas. That is where we were tortured. There is certain Captain called du Preez. That is the one who was operating the electrical wires on us.
There is a certain cable which explodes. I do not know what kind of explosive that was, but they would throw it on our feet and then they would put it our toes. Therefore it exploded on his fingers. Then it broke one of his fingers. Then they would even shoot us just on our legs. We stayed in Rustenberg in that way. We stayed approximately a month or two months.
During the first unrest after what happened at the school, I was implicated that I was there when shops were burnt. Whilst I was in prison they laid a charge against me and I appeared in court in Potchefstroom. I was sentenced to six months. I was still under emergency regulation detention. I served my six months prison sentence in
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Early in February I was released. They gave me a train ticket. I thought maybe this policeman wanted to re-detain me because they use to do that. Then I used the taxi. When I arrived at home, that night they arrived. Very early in the morning they knocked at my door. I went at my parent's bedroom. Then I ran through the back window. They went in and searched and they took all my albums. They were coming to look for me almost on a daily basis.
Then I began to lax my political activity because they were saying I know too much. Then they said because I am doing standard ten, I make myself a mayor because after the Koosa Youth Congress was formed I was elected the Chairperson.
The very same year, 1986, there were so many unrests which happened in the township. Many youths took part in those unrests. The police came to fetch me at home. They laid a charge that I am stopping children from going to school. I was taken to a place Dwaalboom. That place it was Nkosi, Leon van Heerden, Skeepers, Rantikane, Mikey, Strydom and other white policemen. There was a certain man called Stimane. We were thrown in those cells and we were crowded.
During that night we were taken, myself and a certain Mr Malindi. We were taken to a certain room. They made me sleep on a certain bed. They tied my hands and put the electrical cables on my head. They took other cables and put them on my private parts. Then they tortured me for about a hour or two. They wanted me to expose who were involved and those who were teaching us politics. They said we found the location being peaceful, but we are making the
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township ungovernable. We stayed at Dwaalboom and other people were released. I was left alone. I stayed for 21 days at Dwaalboom. I was tortured for seven to eight times. Everytime they would force me to frog-jump, this Bill Nkosi and Leon van Heerden, I had a big head and they were hitting my head against the wall and pulling my hair. I am not born like this. The Boers are the people who made me like this. Blood was spilling all over my head where they have rooted my hair out.
After that torture, around two o' clock in the morning I was taken to Thabazimbi where they wanted me to make a statement. I made a statement there. The prosecutor there said to me are you tortured. I said, yes. They would take the statement, give them to the police. When we were taken back they said I am hard-headed. Then they tortured me again. I was choked. My hair was pulled. They said they want to take the Comrade out of my head. When I gave up a certain boy who wanted to be released wrote a letter so that he must give them at home so that they should take the letter to home. So that he should tell them which road did we use.
I was able to go to court. I went there and went into the witness box. Then from there I was released. It was then that I was released. That was the end of 1986. I was imprisoned for many times and I did not know the reason why. At times they would come and say somebody says you are putting some bombs, because they said Thomas Mvudle is making some bombs, he is storing them at my house.
In January 1987 we began to look for work in the mines because we said the best thing is to go and work. Many times when we got to the mines where we were looking for
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work, we were shown a list, a long list where we were blacklisted. We were not supposed to be employed in Carletonville because we were blacklisted. Then we were supposed to go outside to look for work. This is why there were so many lists, blacklists which were given to many factories and the mines.
1988 and 1989 I was working. When I was saying I was arrested at that time in 1990, on the 13th of May. I was working at H & H. We read in the newspaper the following day that there were children who were taken to a certain school. Their ears were cut and girls were raped and that these people took sticks and put them in the ladies private parts. Some of those girls were my friends. Then we examined this incident, but we are asking ourselves what is happening if these things are happening in our township? After the 13th, on the 20th of May a rally was held at the stadium where people tried to examine this issue. COSATU, Civic Association, ANC Youth League and Womens League, all those organisations were there. Whilst they were attempting to address this problem, a certain group entered the stadium with pangas and children started to run out of the stadium. Then we ran out of the stadium.
On the following Monday, maybe on the 22nd, a meeting was called the Roman Catholic Church. The reason for this meeting was the need that this problem should be solved. How can these people be stopped? Those who are harassing and torturing the people because there was information that was found that these other people were from the location, others from Klerksdorp, others from Soweto. We got the information that these people were the ones who were looked after by the police. When they arrived at Khutsong they
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were accommodated and they wanted to flourish with their bad deeds.
The meeting was held at the Roman Catholic Church on Monday at eight o' clock. They Church was full by youth and old people. Whilst discussions went on, the following morning on Tuesday the people, no people should go to work because this effects the whole township. The problem was if a person was not effected he would not take part in the formulation of the solution. He would join when he is effected. Then he would say if I took part then, this thing could never have happened to me. That morning we woke up. Then we patrolled the whole township. I was helped by Thomas Mvudle because he knew these people because some of them he attended school with them. They were able to identify those people and two of them were arrested. Then the whole group said the best thing, these people should be taken to the police station. One of them was the one who was responsible for cutting the children's ears. One of the victims was able to identify that person. They were take to the police station. After some moment we were able to see them again in the township. When we examined the situation we were able to find out that the police desired that this thing should go on because it seems they were fuelling the violence in the township. Then the situation went out of control.
Those of us who were identified, we were identified by these people and they were hunting for us and the were covering their faces and looking for their own victims all over the township. Then the decision was taken that shops should be banned and the delivery vans should be banned. We were able to say that this is a criminal act.
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A certain person called Gadaffi arrived in the township. This Gadaffi was dangerous because he is the leader of this group. It was a group of people who were unemployed, of the people who were not students, but other were students. They took the fact that because they were given liquor and food and they were able to loot because they wanted to get some food. At that time the police houses were banned and the taverns were closed and the shops were closed. At that time I was working at a certain tavern called, the owner of the tavern was Matsawo.
A certain guy arrived, then he demanded a Toyota Corolla. He wanted that by force. They give him the car keys. He went with that car in the township and he was driving all over the township. From there he wanted to look for another car. On the road towards Klerksdorp he met a traffic cop and then he was stopped. When he was supposed to stop he began to shoot. Then the traffic cop phoned for back-up and Gadaffi was arrested. There is a certain woman called Anna in the township. This Gadaffi was writing letters to this woman called Anna, that she must come and bail him out of prison. This woman came to us and said, what can I do if I receive these threats? We told her that the best thing is to go to the police because we cannot do anything. If the members of this gang, if they know of your desire to release him or not to release him, you are going to be targeted and, again, if you are not going to release him, this group is going to threaten you. The child of this woman was involved with the gang.
It happened that because Gadaffi was the leader of that group, it made sense that it was called Gadaffi group because of this Gadaffi. They were saying anybody who was
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opposed to the Gadaffi group is a Mazimzim and the Mazimzim is opposing the ANC. At that time we were members of the Youth League and some of the Gadaffi group were members of the ANC. There was this ANC Youth League which did not take sides between the two groups. I do not know if they were prejudiced on that because many of them were staying in the shack houses. This Gadaffi group was mobilising people from the shack houses because the shack houses in that area were built in such a way that the police do not have access.
Gadaffi was released. There is a certain old man, I am not able to identify him or call his name because if there is media people. He owns taxis and business people. He was using these children and other woman and some of them are prominent figures of the ANC Youth League. Some of them are prominent leaders of the Civic Association. The other one is a teacher. They said they should take these children to Natal so that they could get medicine. There is a certain doctor called Gonondo who will be able to use his medicines so that they should be invisible. That is then that I have a feeling that the situation was uncontrollable because they were convinced that they were invisible and nobody is going to stop them.
The fighting continued. A certain child called Kosima Sekwo was murdered when he went to a funeral. People are restricted to attend a funeral. They said they wanted the funeral members only to attend the funeral. So we felt that that is not going to be possible because these are not the people who rule the township. Those people who were at that meeting at the Roman Catholic Church, some of them left the organisation and we were very few. It was myself, my brother, my younger brother, Madello Maseko, those whose
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shops were banned and those who were victims of this Gadaffi group.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lesotho, can I just stop you there for a moment? I wonder if I can, actually, just ask you to come back to where and how your wife was killed.
MR LESOTHO: I am on my way to that point. For us to be deeply involved in the attempt to bear solution there, when we attended the funeral of this Kosi Maseko, brought many problems because we were screened when we attended the funeral. When we went back from the funeral we were attacked. That is when the fight started between us and the group called Gadaffi. At that time it was a fight between the Mazimzim and the Gadaffi group.
My parents at that time were out of the township. They went to stay at Potchefstroom. I had my younger brother. His name is Klaas. He was working at Doornfontein. He was a karate instructor. He had a gym at Sebokeng and Khutsong. They were hunting for him because if they were looking for you and did not find you, anyone who they would find at home they would kill him.
My brother was a second dan in karate. At that time he got a sponsorship from Anglo American to go to Japan to train for karate. Around July, August he came back from work. He said he is going to his wife. He had a wife and child. Unfortunately, the wife was staying around the Gadaffi enclave. I said to him I do not want you to go to that resettlement area because these people are looking for you. Then he said to me, I use to meet these people and they know that I am not involved in the problems in the township. They know that I am only involved in karate. Then I said they are tracking you because the day they are
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going to get you, they will make it a point that they kill you. Then he said to me, do not worry, I will protect myself.
One Saturday he was riding on a BMX. He was taking money to his wife, just on the entrance of the resettlement area. When he came back he told me that he had met this group and there were seven. Then they said, where is your brother? He said, I do not know. Then they said, let us kill this one. Then they put pangas and all kinds of arms they had. Fortunately, he was able to defend himself. Then he went straight to his wife. He arrived there, he returned.
On a Sunday, a certain lady arrived from Everton visiting from brother. During the week whilst he was coming back from work he went together with this lady to go and see his wife and child. I said to him he can go. When he get the story about his wife, he said he arrived safely. Then he said a certain boy arrived and said, Klaas, they are going to kill you. They are on the way. You had better go. I know these people. I know what they are going to do is going to be true. Then Klaas listened. On his way, around 150m from the house, then a certain combi arrived full of people. They fought him. He was able to protect himself. Then a certain combi arrived. They were able to tie him with wires. From there they even tied this lady. Whilst we still there, around the houses where we were protecting.
On the following day I found out that Klaas has not arrived at home and he must go to work. Then I phoned his boss and said has this person not yet arrived. He said no. Then I was surprised to find out that he had not arrived. We went to Klaas' wife house. Then he said the boy who came KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
to say they are going to kill Klaas told us that it seems they have killed Klaas. We went to the police station to go and search for his body. The police told us that they will not be able to go with us. They are afraid that tomorrow they are helping us. Then I said to them, we are afraid to go to that resettlement area. The best is for them to protect us so that we can go and look for his body. We went there and the police went together with their dogs. We went around the township, approximately eight hours. When we wanted to give up, around two kilometres away from the township, we found the body of this girl. It seems she was strangled and stabbed with knives and her body was bent.
Whilst we were in that veld when we arrived at the old cemetery, we saw three people standing, raising their hands. We found Klaas where he was lying. The used something like a pick which they used to him on his head and it seemed his skull was broken and his brain was exposed. When I saw him, then I returned. They took his clock-card and put it on his chest.
MR LESOTHO: I am okay. I returned home. I told my mother what I had seen. After that I gave up. We were able to bury him. Then I called all my friends. I told them that it does not help. They have killed Kosi. They called Thomas mother, Mvudla. They killed my brother.
We went to Everton to a certain old man called Sims. We were looking for support because we were very few and the Gadaffi group were many and they were supported by many of the people in the township because the residents were not able to identify those who were doing the right thing and
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those who were doing the wrong thing. Thus, what we tried, we reprimanded Sina Bobully, the one who was taking information from the Gadaffi group. So he was reporting one side of the story and a certain lady called Philippa Hasapim from Daily Mail. We gave him the story. He was only reporting one side of the story.
I, together with Dougie and Mr Mamani, we went to the ANC headoffice. We met Pendel Maduna and Mr Kalima. We told them our side of the story. They did not have the desire to follow up our story, how serious was the situation. What they did was they told us to go back to the township and solve our own problems. We have our own leadership. We went to Dan Seko and Comrade Seatsi. All the problems, they were afraid of this group. It arrived at a point when they told us straight that they are afraid of this group.
We had discussions with the ANC Youth League in the township. Even them, they said there was this man who had a dual interest between the two groups. This group, he was favouring them, the next day he was favouring the other group. This Gadaffi, there were members who were afraid to go out of this Gadaffi group because they said they will be killed if they resign their membership. When we saw that our attempts to meet this group failed so that we should give them the list of the people we need and they should give us the list of people we need. In all the meetings we were the only group which was attending. Everybody knows exactly what happened. We were able to see that all attempts were fruitless. Therefore, we should meet fire with fire. After we were able to acquire guns, we decided to draw a strategy. We began to see which direction they
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usually come from and when this group, when they attack, they would usually put people who were ignorant in front. We were able to see a certain lorry called Blue Ribbon which was able to enter into the township. One day we approached the driver of the Blue Lorry. We hijacked the truck. We went to the resettlement area with this Blue Ribbon truck to their base. We alighted from the lorry. We fought with this group, shooting each other. They ran away and then we returned. We fought that way with our attacks and with their attacks.
In 1991 the woman whom I had married them. She was staying the last row of the resettlement area. While she was still watching TV a certain boy entered. Then told Tahlita with my boy whilst they were watching the drama. That boy was relative to Tahlita. He is from my in-laws. Then he took this child and put him on the sofa and my child at that time was six years old. He was about four years or years. He took this child and put him on the sofa. Then he took Tahlita to the resettlement area and Tahlita's younger brother ran to us and told us a certain boy took Tahlita to the resettlement area and they said they want you.
We went hunting for Tahlita the whole night. Until the following day, we were not successful in our attempts. Around quarter past six we found her body. They poured petrol on her and they burnt her. At that time the police were searching for me. The police took advantage of what was happening in the township. They had a system that if they know that there are people who are looking for them and if they were attacked, they would say they were attacked by us. In the same way if we were attacked, people would create a story that we were attacked by Gadaffi. Then I
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made a decision that I am not turning back. I went alone after hiring a car. I went to the hostel and looked for a gun. I got a pump-gun. At that time I was furious because this side is the police, this side is the Gadaffi group. Then I rode a bicycle. The way I was foolish. I did not know these people. All the time I wanted to find Thomas so that he would be able to help me to identify me because I was attending a Soetho school and Thomas attending a Xhosa school. Then we went for assistance in Everton. Those people from Everton came to help us. Even the business people were used by this people from Everton. They were able to be used by the business people for their own efforts.
In the morning we would hear stories that somebody has died or a certain house was burnt. We wanted to go and revenge, but the problem was if we go in the night, they will come and burn our houses. We were going during the day. We were going inside the township to look for them and when we meet them, it will be a fight.
Ultimately, we decided to sit down and talk. I told Spankie that you have lost your family and Madala as well and I have lost family members as well. Are we going somewhere with all this fighting. So it is best for us to sit down and discuss this. Therefore, we decided to go back to Dan's company to try and call a meeting in order to discuss this because this war had reached its peak. Many people were killed already like Willie and Gadaffi.
When Willie died, to show that our intention was not to fight with them, we did take Willie on that day. I was one of the people who took Willie when he was killed. Some people decided that he should be killed because they kill us KRUGERSDORP HEARING TRC/GAUTENG
as well, but I decided rather that he should be taken to the police. We took Willie to Thomas' house. He had a belt around his waist and when we tore this belt there was human hair and teeth and all these were fresh. Willie explained to us because he was under duress. He told us who finances them to go down to Transkei so that they can get to see some witchdoctor called Gonondo so that they should be invisible. Therefore, we decided to call the police and they arrived. They took Willie. Matola was there as well. I cannot remember the other policeman's name clearly. They took Willie to the police station. That is where they set up a trap that they shot him because he was going to get some guns. We wanted to know how was he killed because we are afraid that the responsibility will be laid on us, but the policemen gave us their side of the story.
So the issue of making peace became more serious. We went to Johannesburg to hold meetings to discuss this, but there was no consensus at all. They did not want to attend meetings because they feared that we might trap them so that they may be arrested. We did understand, but we suggested to them that they should find a neutral venue and they must come and tell us immediately about the venue and they should collect us and we will go with them. We did try several times to hold these peace meetings, but all means failed.
A lady by the name of Sally Siele came who was working for the Independent Board of Enquiry for Repression. She wanted to know the truth from both sides. TV1 personnel Tembela Nkola came wanting to find out what was happening. I did try to explain to them what was happening. We did not trust the press any more because they were biased all the time. So it would be much better if we got the coverage of
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television. We appeared on TV1, but unfortunately at that time we did not watch television one channel. We were only watching our preferred black channel, the Sotho. We knew that if we do not make peace, it means that much more people are going to die from the Gadaffi side and our side as well. Therefore, we must try and sit down to see as to what is the root of the problem.
I met Mrs Nomandla's son, Jomo. I asked him, he must introduce me to one of his friends and you must sit down and see how you can resolve these friends. He did bring his friends and we sat down and talked about this. We held a meeting at the Zetsisi Church building. There we reached an agreement that there will not be any further fighting. It was on a Tuesday.
It was on a Saturday, there was a stokvel in our street, next door to Mr Mvudla. Dan Sekoe, the mayor of Carletonville was there at the stokvel as well. It was held for the congress. Everybody was jubilant and we thought that we had achieved the goal that we were striving for, but only to find out that we were not right because on that very same night it was me with my brother and Dan Sekoe. I went outside to relieve myself and a group of 50 people came from nowhere and they said, yes, here is Spankie. This is our chance to kill him today. I cannot mention their names, but they are in prison at the moment.
They caught me by my pants and they wanted to know if I do not have a firearm. That is when I became scared. I tried to fight back. The other group attacked the people who were in the tent and they destroyed everything, windows. They were beating and assaulting people. I asked the owner of the house to call the police, but by then they had
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already started burning down the tent as well. Even the gentlemen who were in that shack that they were selling the alcohol from was burnt. He could see from on top that the shack was on fire. Thomas went to call the police. They were trying to forcefully open the door by using a chair, but they could not manage and therefore I managed to survive.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lesotho, I am going to stop here this time and I would like to ask you some questions please. Perhaps, we can come back to where you have got to. I want to go back to the time that, you said earlier on where the Gadaffis seemed to be killing many people and that something needed to be done. Is this the time when you became a member of the Mazimzim group?
MR LESOTHO: As I have explained, the Mazimzim issue, Mazimzim was not an organisation in 1990 and the Gadaffi as well, they were not an organisation in 1990. In 1985 and 1986 I was the Chairperson of AZASIM. They called AZASIM, Mazimzim in short. They assumed that before all this we were all members of AZASIM, but there was no AZASIM then. We called the Gadaffis because their leader was Gadaffi and therefore we all called them Magadaffi. At that time there was no, we were all members of the ANC Youth League at that time.
CHAIRPERSON: Can you, besides the brother that was killed, Klaas, do you have any other brothers?
MR LESOTHO: Are you talking about relatives or friends?
CHAIRPERSON: I am talking about, no brothers.
MR LESOTHO: Yes, I do have an elder and a younger brother.
CHAIRPERSON: And their names are?
MR LESOTHO: The other one is Toko and Boy.
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CHAIRPERSON: I just want to date these, can you just tell us again about when your, what month was your wife killed? Yes, sorry. First of all your brother, when was he killed?
MR LESOTHO: If I can briefly explain. I think Tahlita was killed in February.
CHAIRPERSON: And your brother?
MR LESOTHO: He was killed in August 1990.
CHAIRPERSON: And you said you had a child as well, a six year old child at the time. Was your child alright?
MR LESOTHO: Yes, that is my child.
CHAIRPERSON: I just want to ask you one more question about, you talk about Willie. Who is this Willie? What is his surname?
MR LESOTHO: I do not remember his surname, but I think one of the people who are here might tell.
CHAIRPERSON: Okay, we will ask some other people later on. Thank you very much. I would appreciate it if you could actually tell us something about Vincent Maposa, Philiman Entola and Soloman Plangeni. Do you remember those three people?
MR LESOTHO: To tell the truth, the one I know is the Maposa person because I am friend with his brother and even his family, but the story I know is the police and some of our group were involved in that incident where my younger brother was involved because he was arrested about the Maposa incident. My elder brother, also, was detained. I am not able to give a full account of what has happened because after what happened to me I saw that the best thing, I should disassociate myself alone from the whole group.
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CHAIRPERSON: My last question is and, I am sorry I interrupted you, but you were coming to the point where peace was being made between the different factions. We heard earlier on of the involvement of the ANC and certain peoples names were mentioned. Is that what you were also going to talk about?
MR LESOTHO: Yes, I was going to explain the same.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. I have no further questions. Ms Seroke. Mr Ally.
DR ALLY: Yes. I just want ask you one or two questions if you do not mind. Before I ask the questions I just want to be quite frank and honest with you. I know that what you explained now, the account that you gave of what happened to you and members of your family is a very sad and terrible story and a very tragic story to lose a brother in the way in which you lost your brother and a wife and all the consequences of that. The context in which that took place as you mentioned and others also gave an account of this was this conflict between different groupings within one organisation. We have heard many accounts now of the Mazimzims and Gadaffis and different explanations for their origins and what they did. Their different positions, beliefs and so forth.
One of the things that the Commission has to do is, on the basis of the statements which we get from people, we have to make findings as to whether people are victims of gross human rights violations or not and in many of the accounts which people give of violations, they also mention those who they believe they were the violaters, so caller perpetrators. Before we make a finding it is the responsibility of the Commission to inform those who were
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named as perpetrators in event that there will be adverse consequences for them if they are named as people responsible. This also has implications for the whole question of amnesty. You know that the Commission also has an Amnesty Committee which is specially there for those people who may have committed gross human rights violations to apply for amnesty if these events took place. These violations took place as a result of the conflicts of the past. What we have been hearing here, it is a very difficult and complex issue because on the one hand people are named as victims and in another context, they come up as perpetrators. I have to point out to you that we actually have a statement here. I am going to, because the person is going to be coming later, after you have actually given your account. I think it is necessary for you to actually hear what the person says and, perhaps to ask for your response. This person speaks about Vincent Mapai, but he also deals with assault of Mtolo, Philiman Sonto, Maposa, Vincent Mapai, but he also deals with the assault and the shooting of Emlangeni Solomon Sipho. These are names that Dr Randera mentioned and he asked you if those names were familiar to you.
The person in the statement goes forward and continues and says that these people were abducted by the Mazimzim gang. The people who were abducted were members of the Gadaffi group. Now the names of the Mazimzim gang who abducted the victims were, there are a number of names and your name is mentioned as well. Spankie Lesotho, Boy Lesotho, all from Khutsong and some other names I mentioned. The person go on, the statement, to say that Solomon Maglangkeni was hacked with pangas before driving away to a
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place where those who abducted were to be killed. The victims were taken to a dam outside Khutsong. However, before reaching the dam the combi and the van were stopped by the SAP. According to the survivor, Vincent Maposi, the polices intention of stopping the two vehicles was to find out if the people they were looking for had been found. The Mazimzim gang told them that they did find the people. The policemen's names were as follows. Siphisizwo and Steve Motabede of Khutsong Police Station.
The victims were taken to Skavene Dam just outside Khutsong. The police accompanied the Mazimzim gang to the dam. When they got there they started beating the victims with sticks, iron rods and pangas. The members of the SAP were also beating the victims. Vincent Maposi collapsed after they beat him. He along, with Solomon Mlangkeni were loaded into van as corpses. However, Vincent was not dead, he was just unconscious. Solomon Mlangkeni died from a bullet wound on his head. Is there anything that you want to say in connection with that statement?
MR LESOTHO: Yes, it is there. I have a feeling that this Mopasi case came at the right time because it will be able to show that even in our group we had a splinter group. There were those who were doing things on their own and we were involved. I was not involved and I know of this case which you have just explained. Unfortunately, my name just appeared wrongly. Maybe, the speaker would come and testify about that. He will be saying we wanted to say my brother, but he said me. He is at liberty to explain his own version. I do not mind if I am implicated in that incident, but I am 100% sure I was working at H & H. I was at work. I heard the story. We know people who were convicted.
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There way it is explained and the way I know, those people were perpetrators. It happened on the night that I was at work. When we arrived at the location in the morning we heard that it is true that a certain combi and that van were of this kind and this has happened. I do not want to go further, I do not want ultimately what they have explained to me. They have explained to me what has happened, but I am just trying to explain the point that my name appears there wrongly. Maybe that person wanted to say my brother. There were two cases where I was appeared and I was convicted in the Supreme Court. City Press, my brother's name appeared and then on the charge sheet my name appeared. So I have learnt that there is a confusion of saying who is Spankie and who is Toko. Maybe that person will be surprised if he sees me because he will be able to say maybe I did not want to say this person, I wanted to say his brother. He is at liberty to explain saying that am I Spankie or am I Toko, but I know that I am clean on that incident.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Lesotho I want to come back and thank you again for coming today. You lost two people who were very close to you, but again, your story like your friend before you, Mr Mvudla, throws up the complications of what happened in Khutsong. I would like to just say by coming here you have actually contributed and, I think, you have been very brave, because you have been as honest as you can in terms of how you reacted to situations at the time. Some of it related to what was happening in the general community. Some of them, specifically, to yourself because you lost your brother and your wife. At the same time I would like
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to take on the point that Dr Ally is making which is that today we have actually heard many cases where people were both victims and perpetrators. We need to be mindful of the latter point as well because as we do our investigations, we need to answer questions from other people who are also coming forward as victims today. I would like to stop there and just thank you again. Is there anything you would like to say in closing?
MR LESOTHO: There is nothing further I want to say.