I’ve been ask to say again that we apologize that there aren’t enough headsets. There are more on the way for tomorrow and please share, it you do understand or if you want to sit close to someone, you can - two people can listen off one headset, because we really would like as many people as possible to be able to understand what’s going on.
Ms Sishuba and Ms Phike welcome, it’s been a long day I know and thank you for sitting patiently and waiting for your turn. Can I ask you both to stand to take the oath please.
BONISWA SISHUBA Duly sworn states
Thank you very much, I’ll now hand you over to Rev Xundu, who’s going to lead your evidence.
I great you, I’m going to start with you, Ntemi. It is clear that the - in 1985 during the lasts months of 1985 was year of death here in Mbekweni, even all over the country. The conflict among the organizations - black organizations.
I want to ask you to give us a picture that will explain to us what happened to you and the manner in which it happened, so that we can be able to understand and ask relevant questions. Thank you.
In 1985 - I can’t remember the date
Ntemi is not here, it’s Lizzy. In 1985 on the 27th of October I was arrested - the police came, the whites came to fetch me at home, they knocked and I open the door. Just before we left, they told me that they are arresting me under the State of Emergency. It was Mr Groenewald and the others. He said I must take my clothes with me.
When we were in town, they put me in the police station, I was interrogated by Mr Le Roux. He asked me about the organizations that I was involved in. I told them where I was working, he asked me about the other organizations. I told him that I’m in the women’s organizations, I’m in the civic association.
He wanted to ask about - wanted to know about Mr O’Grady - this Mr O’Grady was the manager of RFF. I told her that as a person who is representing the workers. If there’s a problem I usually go to this person. He left me along.
I spent something like a week - something like two weeks. I was taken to Pollsmoor Prison. When I arrived there, there were other people who were also arrested under the State of Emergency which was - which were the people who were to be arrested for fourteen days. Detective Groenewald arrived, he told me that he was not going to interrogate me, but he wanted me to work with them - to co-operate against the people of Mbekweni. Because they knew very well that the people of Mbekweni had confidence in me and if I co-operate, they are going to release me - they were going to release me.
I told them that it’s clear that you are not going to release me because I’m not going to do what you want me to do. You can keep me as long as you like, he said I can go back to my cell. I went back to my cell.
But in your statement you say you heard over the radio that there was a conflict between the AZAPO and the UDF.
Yes, there was that problem that the people were fighting the youth of AZAPO and UDF were fighting. So it was not really nice in that prison.
Other they saying it’s PAC. Was this one organization or what? Was it PAC against UDF - were they working together?
AZAPO and UDF were working together because it was youth and their parents. It was not nice now here at the - at the - in this prison. Fortunately my cousin’s sister arrived on a Christmas Day to visit - to visit me. She also told me about what was happening in the township, about the AZAPO, the PAC’s and the Boers who were - who wanted the youth - were collecting the youth.
And they also wanted Ntemi. I was worried because even my husband was once harassed by this white boers. They even said that my husband was lying it he says he doesn’t know anything about them. They said they had the right to ask for whatever they want. I told them to take Ntemi to - to - I told them to take Ntemi to Gugulethu. My cousin took Ntemi to Gugulethu so that the police couldn’t find her.
At that time Monghe Zheninze was shot dead by police, my friend - Maggie Wilson - took Ntemi to Cape Town - Gugulethu. After a day one policeman came to me, I was told that I had a visitor - I was surprised that I had this kind of a visitor. I’m not sure whether this investigator was Goodxhi or what.
He said to me sit down, he told me that your child had passed away, he was killed by the AZAPO and UDF. I told him that he was lying, they are the people who killed my child, who was ...[intervention]
Where did this take place - what did this take place?
He said to me call all your children, I mentioned all those who were with me Freddy, David and Ntemi. And he said Ntemi was the one, I was not well since after that - I started crying. Captain wanted to know what happened, the Detective told him that her child is dead. He asked him why could he tell me this kind of information, they said to - they told them that they must release me.
There was Jinpiece Mashalangu - Mashalangu wanted to come back - to come back to the prison instead - instead of me in and them they told him that he cannot go there in that cell because he was arrested in Cape Town and the instruction is coming from Mr Vlok from Pretoria.
They - all their organizations tried - made some efforts so that I could be released. On the 1st I was released because the funeral was to be on the 2nd . Instead on the 1st they didn’t release me on the 1st, and I asked them again when are the going to - when are they going to release me because the funeral of my child was to be on the second.
Later on we were released and we buried our children. Everything was ready and there were a lot of restrictions and they made it a point that I don’t brake any - I don’t - I obey all the restrictions. I was told that all the final arrangements were done.
What I didn’t like was the torture that we were experiencing. The helicopter was making noise - was - the police were all over the place. My friends who were suppose to attend the funeral and the other doctors were not allowed.
While we was still burying did the groups - the PAC and AZAPO came to - did the groups to disturb you?
No, they were just looking at us and you could see that they were enjoying our pain. They were getting support from the police. I asked to say something during my child’s funeral, and it was clear that it’s all the youth were victimized. I asked to say something - I asked the comrades not to revenge to the AZAPO because the AZAPO’s and the PAC members were informers - police informer. They have lost their direction. The boers that are using them, they just - they just want to distort information and turn everything to be a black on black violence.
Was there anybody who was arrested in regard - was there anybody arrested concerning the death of Ntemi?
The UDF and advice officers in charge - I used to go to them and get some more information. They used to tell me that the other members of AZAPO are - were unavailable. It was clear that you were just wasting time because those people - the perpetrators - disappeared. The only person who was left behind was an old person, the others left for Cape Town. END OF TAPE 2, SIDE B…
Then after the funeral you said you were detained again.
On the 1st of May we were organizing a May Day Rally. We were restricted just after we finished our arrangements. In the morning we got some other restrictions saying that we mustn’t go on. We phoned our lawyers and they referred us to the Chief Magistrate to ask for permission. There was a bus full of youth who were arrested, there was one of them that I knew very well, that he was not even involved. But when I asked, I quarreled with a policeman. We were fighting at this policeman who said I - I should be taken to the cell.
Yes, that was the reason for my second arrest. I spent a night there - I was released on free bail the next morning. On the 11th of September 1990 - 1986 a State of Emergency was declared. Unfortunately my cousin had passed away, I was still busy with arrangements of his funeral. The following day the police came and took people to arrest them. I left for Johannesburg - I didn’t appear in court on the 17th of July. I spent 3 months in Gauteng, in Oakeland Park, with my friend who was a doctor.
I was arrested on the morning of the 22nd of September in Gauteng. One investigator by the name of Pam came, he demanded my ID, I didn’t want to give him my ID. He demanded the address, he showed me the proof that he was an investigator from John Vorster Square. He asked me if I was aware that I’m wanted - I’m a wanted. I said yes and then he asked me the reason but I didn’t tell about the Statement of Emergency. I told him that I quarreled with a policeman - he took me with him. I was on the way to the meeting in I&J - at least when the phone rang I could tell them I was arrested. I went to John Vorster Square.
Yes, I came back to Paarl. I spent something like a month - on that particular night was interrogated by Le Roux. They asked me about people who are in Lusaka.
What do you mean when you say you were tortured?
I was not tortured, I was interrogated on that particular night. Just before I went to sleep I told him that go officially to Lusaka for other things that are - are connected to the FAWU. When my lawyer arrived I told them that I’m arrested for a criminal offense because I quarreled with a policeman. My lawyer told the Magistrate that my case should be only one. I’m not - I was not there for political reasons but it was a criminal offense.
And then they said if it’s political related, I must - I must be - the charge must be changed. Then they said I must stay something like month in jail. I spent a month - I was there - I arrived on the 22nd of October until 22nd - 22nd of October until the 23rd.
Ntemi had a child with a lady from Fort Beaufort, fortunately this girl came to look for Ntemi, but unfortunately Ntemi was dead. I knew very well that Ntemi had a child, some where there. My aim was to take this child and help him at school.
The child is with me because I think the mother felt uncomfortable, because I didn’t have a son and she left her child with me. And her child is 11 years old now.
You’ve told us the story that shows that in your community there was conflict. Are there efforts now that could lead you to reconciliation?
No efforts - there were no efforts, but we - during the elections I razed the point that the people who were oppressing us, who never apologized will never be our leaders.
You mean you have a wish that something should be done so that it could bring about reconciliation?
My wish is that the people just before they - [indistinct] the people who are going to be our leaders, they must first talk to the people who are oppressing us as we were fighting for our freedom.
I’m talking about the AZAPO organization and UDF.
I’m talking about the AZAPO people who never came to apologize who are also enjoying the results of our freedom. We just want them to come and apologize so that we could be at peace.
Do you have any wishes - what wishes do you have and request that you have to the Commission?
There’s a lot that I wish because what I was fighting for was freedom so that we can follow the freedom charter that the leaders who are going to lead who are going to lead to community are going to work according to your needs after liberation.
Right now I’m going to ask because of that kind of a situation that I don’t even have a house now with my children.
Your son Zhukile - the one that you’ve mentioned in your statement, how old is he?
Zhukile is 19 years full, he’ll be 20 on the 21st of November. The one who was mostly affected - though I was not sure that he was clever enough to see, he didn’t have any improvement at school. I took him to the doctor, the doctor said he thinks to much.
When the doctor ask him, he said his mother is arrested and he told him - he told - the doctor told me that I’m involved in the struggle and I be arrested time and again so nothing is going to change. And them we decided that he must leave school.
Thank you Mamma, you’re going to hand over to Boniswa now. You are also going to add on the story of Lizzy Phike about the killing of the people of that area, which - so I would ask you to briefly tell us more and tell us who was Mr Mandula, who was Rasta so that we should get your story very well. You should mainly emphasize on the PAC or should we say PAC and AZAPO. We’re working together with the same thing.
I think I was going to give a picture of how this all happened so that you can also make out what actually happened.
In 1985 [indistinct] shack was burnt and that is when the conflict started. On a Sunday morning we saw a group of young boys going to some house where Rasta lived and they were shouting saying that the UDF members were responsible for the burning of the shack and a child had died.
Now I couldn’t identify this young boys but the old people who had lost their children were up and about and he was amongst these young boys. And he was shouting to and I was also attracted by a pregnant young boy - girl by the name of Nontando Matigani and I focused on them.
They moved on to another house that belonged to a UDF house - member but no one took notice of all this because no one expected that there was going to be so much damage. So that very same night Rasta was chased and he was hurt and died.
And did Rasta have a home and parents there?
Rasta originally came from Cape Town, he was just a visitor. I had seen him only for two days.
So Rasta was killed that night?
Yes, after his death these young boys were escorted by police van and provoking people in the location and people noticed all this and they started to defend themselves. And that is when tear gas was sprayed and there was a confusion in the location. And this really disturbed me and I wished that the police could stop all this because I could anticipate that many people were going to die from all this.
By the way you say there was [indistinct] Williams , Yabo and Thembisele Ngehu who were this?
[indistinct] Williams is a one witness where Rasta went to and was - in whose house he was hacked. And I think he knows who actually killed Rasta.
And so you saw that the police was not involved, what steps did you take as women?
It was the time when there was the State of Emergency and there were blockades all over and I thought that people were not aware of what the police were doing. So I would make telephone calls to The Times and to the Argus newspapers but they were doing nothing about all this. I had intention to expose everything of what was happening because this youth was a first - soccer club and then later known as AZANJU.
So we were looking at then as the youth of the AZANJU. I then went to Ms Bishop and told her that the policeman were not of assistance and she referred me to Tian Van Der Merwe who came to Paarl and I tried means to go and talk to him. With intention that this was going to be referred to the Parliament and perhaps be published.
Now in your talk you - in your statement you say this collaboration between the police and the PAC was very strong and you have made mention of Lalase.
All these things happening - I was making telephone calls giving reports of what was happening in the location until I met Pepper Green from Argus and she was interested and asked me to give her the report about what was happening and I did exactly that. Meanwhile some people had been detained, taken to Q5 at Dekana’s home where they were beaten before they were locked into cells.
Lalase had a wound and they did not release him, he had been beaten by the police. All this was happening in Ms Tekana’s house in Q5. In Q25 ...[intervention]
Was she a resident in the location?
Yes, her sons were members of the AZANJU.
So they assaulted Lalase and then what happened?
Those who had been arrested with her were acquitted and Lalase had a wound just behind the ear. So I approached other women that we should go to the head of the police to go and lay a charge against the policemen because we were of the opinion that they were not aware but the women were very afraid of being detained.
So I took the elderly women and they agreed to go with me, such that some of them died - they are dead now. So we went there so that - to show our concern and disturbance. So we told - we talked to a policeman and ask for the head of the Riot Squad and then we were referred to Mr Willemse who was supposedly they had.
We were divided into two groups and we were standing there and we were telling them about the conflict in the location between the people and the police and we’re asking that the police should not accompany the youth, because this to was next to the police station and we were also that the police should intervene and they should not come to the township. And we expressed our fear that there was going to be some people dying.
No he was not interested, he just said are you afraid of just a simple fourteen people, whereas we are not even aware of how many they were. We didn’t even know anything about AZANJA.
Yes, last month I saw him. I think he’s here in this police college, I know him.
Go on and tell us more about Popayi and Ndinisa and Veyi.
So he went away without any thing from Willem. A few days thereafter - that was the day when Mabridge died - I was still sleeping and them I was woken up and told that there was a child laying down there, but he was still alive. But people were scared to go nearer this body. So I woke up and dressed up and I saw Willemse standing next to this person, together with Simpi - another policeman from the location and another lady Ladia Kassie - who was a member of the PAC.
So I forced my way threw because I felt Ms Kassie to was not a police, so I asked the people to organize transport, so - as to take this child to hospital. So when I got there - I can’t tell what time he was laying there, apparently they wanted him to bleed to death.
So you say this black policeman was from the location?
Yes, he was from the location and I know him perfectly well.
Did he give any evidence thereafter?
No - no I didn’t ask anything from him. So when I got back - I have seen some corpse in funerals but I could make out that this child was dead already at the time. I didn’t see any wound, I think it was at the back - there was only blood that I could see.
And knowing this child and the parent Sue, I screamed but I controlled myself. And he asked me whether I knew the person, I said yes and this is the result of your actions. If he had listened to us this would not have happened. So this is the result of all your actions. We expected that this was going to happen.
And then your answer was that you were afraid of just fourteen people.
He as angry with me and he decided to take my name and address down but they didn’t do anything to me thereafter.
What was Ms Kassie doing at the time?
She was standing, just watching.
So in your statement you - you have told us of certain things that you’d like the Truth Commission to do for you.
In our attempts we phoned several people and including Minister Dullah Omar who called us and we told him that the youth called it’s self AZANJU. He called their leader from Gauteng and they said they were going to talk to us as members of the UDF in a neutral venue but they were also scared of us. So Mr Dally offered his house as the neutral venue and also transport so that we could meet there at Athlone and talk.
We were there but only a few of the AZANJU came and he - a member distanced himself from all this and from that time onwards they said they were PAC members. In fact I would say this - these young children were confused, they didn’t even know with what organization they should identify with. At first they were not PAC members but later on they said they were.
So now you say what would you like this Commission to do with Willemse?
We would like a - the Truth Commission to call Willemse because he has got a lot of information.
So I suspect that he could have had a meeting with this young boys?
We do talk with these boys as we are in the same community and we would like that they should be asked why they did all this.
I think this is the most important part because it means that you want to reconcile with these people and establish peace. Is there any other wish you have to forward to this Commission?
Nothing - nothing more, I’ve got nothing more to say.
I have a question to pose to you Boniswa, you first said that it all started with the burning of a shack that belonged to Madubula. Who was Madubula, who burnt Madubula’s shack, how was the shack burnt.
We just heard that it got burnt as a result of the gas cylinder and there was no reason why they had to think that he - the UDF was responsible for the burning. We had not heard that they had come together but all they did was to kill the members of the UDF. There had been no conflict before all this, all we knew was that the shack got burnt as a result of gas. Unless they perhaps have another story and I wish they could come forward to tell us what had happened actually. All I can say is that they were in the company of policemen.
We thank you, I did say that truly women are wonderful people because they have the courage even during the struggle they showed that courage and they were - man would think that they were actually the hero’s and yet the heroines were the women. So we thank for your contribution and we are going to continue investigating how it happened that people were made to fight each other as the white people were responsible for the black - to black violence.
Because even as a black you would go asking for help, they would always made us a laughing stock and say you are killing each other. Even now some of them are still saying that. We are therefore going to hear from the police one day as to what was happening exactly at the time, but for now we must thank you and comfort you and you must know your efforts led us to what we are today and to where we are today. We thank you.