ON RESUMPTION ON 02.12.97 - DAY 7
CHAIRPERSON: Good morning everyone, welcome. I can't even remember which day of the hearing it is, but it is one of those days, the seventh, is it? The 2nd of December 1997, I think. I welcome you all to the seventh day of this particular hearing. We have a very full day and I be grateful for as much cooperation as possible. Will you all stand please.
COMMISSION COMMENCES WITH PRAYERS: .
CHAIRPERSON: Please be seated. Thank you Dr Mgojo. Our first witness this morning is Mr Thulani Dlamini who wasn't well yesterday but I am informed that he is okay today, so I call Thulani Dlamini.
Good morning Mr Dlamini. Are you feeling a little better today?
MR DLAMINI: I am very well, thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: I am sorry, I couldn't hear you. A little better?
CHAIRPERSON: Good. Welcome, just be absolutely relaxed. You've got nothing to worry about. I am going to ask Ms Sooka to do the oath.
THULANI NICHOLAS DLAMINI: (sworn states)
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Ms Sooka. Mr Miller?
MR MILLER: Thank you Chairperson, the name is Michael Miller, I appear for the witness Thulani Dlamini. Deputy Chairperson, I just want to state that I have prepared my own statement of Mr Dlamini which I have been through with him, and he has confirmed the correctness. I have given it to Mr Vally to have copies made and I would expect that by the time we have finished the evidence in chief, no doubt everyone will be in possession of a copy.
Now, Mr Dlamini, you have been found guilty, is it correct, of the murder of Dr Abu-Baker Asvat?
MR MILLER: And also of robbing him of R145-00 in cash?
MR DLAMINI: That is what they said at a court of law, they said I robbed him.
MR MILLER: And you are serving a sentence of 25 years?
MR MILLER: Now, where were you born?
MR DLAMINI: I was born in Nongoma.
MR MILLER: And did you do your schooling there?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.
MR MILLER: And what standard did you reach?
MR DLAMINI: I left school at standard five.
MR MILLER: And then you came to Johannesburg to seek work?
MR MILLER: Now, have you at all been politically active, had you belonged to any political organisation whether in Nongoma or here?
MR DLAMINI: In Nongoma I was a UDF member.
MR MILLER: Are you still a UDF member?
MR MILLER: What organisation did you join?
MR MILLER: And are you still active as a member of the IFP. Prior to the time of your arrest obviously, did you attend meetings?
MR DLAMINI: No, I was no longer as active.
MR MILLER: Okay, now did you find work here in Johannesburg?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I got a job at a filling station, garage, Tony's garage.
MR MILLER: Toby's garage, what work did you do there?
MR DLAMINI: I was greasing, that was my work.
MR MILLER: And did you leave this work at some stage?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I left that work.
MR MILLER: Okay, and I will take you quickly through this part. You then went and you found work with a cousin of yours at Mzamomhle hostel where you were also living at the time?
MR MILLER: Now, is there a club house at the hostel?
MR DLAMINI: Please repeat your question.
MR MILLER: Is there a club house at the hostel?
MR MILLER: And you had a cousin, his name was Mosonjani, is that right?
MR MILLER: And he introduced you to certain people?
MR MILLER: Can you - was any one of them a person who features in this Commission, whose name you are going to mention a lot?
MR DLAMINI: Please repeat your question.
MR MILLER: Well, who is it you met there? You met another person there from Nongoma, is that correct?
MR DLAMINI: It is Mr Botha Swala.
MR MILLER: And you knew him, you had previously met him in Nongoma?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I knew him. I was still young then, quite young.
MR MILLER: And when you met Botha Swala at the hostel, he mentioned to you that he knows a certain person, well known person?
MR DLAMINI: That is correct. Mrs Mandela.
MR MILLER: Did you at any time prior to the incident you are going to testify about, at any time meet Jerry Richardson?
MR DLAMINI: I had never rendered any testimony in Richardson's case.
MR MILLER: No, you didn't understand the question. Did you prior to the incident, in other words, prior to Dr Asvat's murder, did you meet Jerry Richardson?
MR DLAMINI: No, I had never met Richardson.
MR MILLER: When was the first time you met him?
MR DLAMINI: The very fist time I met Jerry Richardson it was when we were arrested at (indistinct)
MR MILLER: I see. Now on a certain day, Botha Swala came to see you in the club house, is that correct?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.
MR MILLER: And what did he say?
MR DLAMINI: Botha Swala wanted to see Bafana Zondo.
MR MILLER: Who is Bafana Zondo?
MR DLAMINI: Bafana Zondo is one of the people who were ANC members.
MR MILLER: And was Bafana Zondo present?
MR DLAMINI: Bafana Zondo was not present that day, although he used to come a lot to that place.
MR MILLER: Okay, did you then have any further discussion with Botha Swala?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, we had discussions with Botha Swala.
MR MILLER: What happened, what did he say?
MR DLAMINI: Botha Swala first of all he asked me for Bafana Zondo, as to where he was. I told him that I did not know where Bafana Zondo was at the time and he wanted to know as to where we could find him. I said I don't know because the last time I saw Bafana Zondo was the previous night and he did not even come to sleep in that house, and went on to ask me about Cyril Mbatha.
I said I don't know Cyril, maybe you can go to the location to look for him. I knew him, but he was living far away from where I was and he said there was somebody who had a car, Kgase.
We had to look for Kgase. Kgase was a mechanic, car mechanic and he will come to the Mzamomhle hostel to fix cars. I was not quite used to Kgase. We knew each other. I had another friend who was quite used to Kgase and that is how I got to know Kgase, through my friend.
MR MILLER: Okay, let's cut it a bit short. Did you eventually find Mbatha, Cyril Mbatha?
MR MILLER: And when you found him, did you speak to him, did you say something to him?
MR DLAMINI: I took him to Botha because I knew that Botha wanted to see Mbatha.
MR MILLER: Yes. And then the three of you had a meeting, in other words you, Mbatha and Botha?
MR MILLER: What was discussed at the meeting?
MR MILLER: Botha greeted us and greeted Mbatha and asked as to where I found Mbatha and I told him exactly where I found Mbatha and Botha asked which place did I locate Mbatha and I told him exactly where in the location I located Mbatha. May I go on?
MR DLAMINI: We sat down and discussed. At that time, I was not employed. I already had problems, financial and otherwise and Botha asked the first question and it was am I in need of money and I said yes, I am in need of money. He said there is some money available if we are so much in need of money and he said he will try to get us do something so we can get some money.
There is somebody that has to be killed, then we can be able to have money. That shocked me a great deal because I had never encountered such a deal before. And Botha went on and said if we really needed money, he will go on to see the person who wanted somebody killed, to tell the person about us.
MR MILLER: Was a sum of money mentioned?
MR DLAMINI: No, the first time we were discussing, he never mentioned the sum of the money.
MR MILLER: Okay, did you then go and meet this person?
MR MILLER: Can you tell us about it?
MR DLAMINI: We went with Botha and Mbatha himself. As we were on the way going to show us the place where the person is, we went towards Orlando. I don't know that area quite well and I never used to frequent that area.
We went there, we got to a certain house, we got inside and there was an quite elderly lady and they greeted each other with Botha. One could tell that they are quite used to each other.
We got inside and we sat down. We saw this lady, Mrs Mandela. I did not know her then. I used to see her on the newspapers and television, but I did not know her. We greeted one another and we sat down.
Botha started the matter and said these are the people who I have told you about that they could carry the mission - I have asked them if they could. We were also asked if we could, we did not answer, we did not respond for quite some time.
As the conversation went on, Botha said we shall feel free and be relaxed, there is no problem absolutely and this lady said if we could do that, she will pay us an amount of R20 000-00.
MR MILLER: Sorry, can I just clarify a couple of things, you say that the first time you went inside this house you met an elderly lady. That is what you said, right?
MR MILLER: And, I assume that was not Mrs Mandela?
MR MILLER: So, did this elderly lady take you to meet Mrs Mandela?
MR MILLER: I see. Go on, so you say you were offered an amount of R20 000-00. Was that R20 000-000 each or R20 000-00 for both?
MR DLAMINI: No, we were not given that amount yet, because we have not yet carried out the mission.
MR MILLER: Yes, but what was the offer, was it R20 000-00 each or R20 000-000 for both of you?
MR DLAMINI: We were all promised R20 000-00.
MR MILLER: Yes, go on. You were offered the money.
MR DLAMINI: We started discussing about this issue of money and she said if we carry out the mission quite successfully, that is what we will get.
And she wanted to find out if we had all the details and we understood the whole thing, task that we had to carry out. We said yes, we were already told about that. As I was unemployed, this was quite attractive to me.
MR MILLER: Sorry, was there some discussion about the money, about the manner in which it would be paid, whether it would be paid afterwards, or before, or partly before or whatever?
MR DLAMINI: Around the money discussion, we were supposed to go. When we were discussing, we discussed about R10 000-00 first before we carried on the mission and the balance when we were done.
MR MILLER: And what was the reply? Did Mrs Mandela agree to that or not?
MR DLAMINI: No. She did not agree to that.
MR MILLER: So you say she wanted to know if you know the details of the job you had to do?
MR DLAMINI: Because we did not agree about that money issue, we left and Botha and Swala knew each other very well and they were quite comfortable and trusted the whole thing, that we could still go on and carry the mission and come back and we will get paid. I also trusted Botha.
MR MILLER: Was anything said about a firearm?
MR DLAMINI: Yes. I am the one who asked about the firearm and I wanted to know as to where we would get the firearm.
MR DLAMINI: Botha said I shall be free, there is a firearm available, that is not a problem.
MR MILLER: I see. Now, how were you supposed to identify the person you were going to kill?
MR DLAMINI: We first discussed the firearm issue, before we even asked further questions. We said we will go back and discuss with the person who will show us the target. And we felt we shall see the person and we were told that we should not be worried about this, there is somebody in place who will show us the right person to shoot.
MR MILLER: So you then went home, is that correct?
MR MILLER: And early the next morning Botha came to fetch you again and you returned to Mrs Mandela's house?
MR MILLER: And what happened on this occasion?
MR DLAMINI: We were driving a car and we parked outside. I am not quite familiar with the area and when we got there, he got inside and he was also with him as some small boy and that is the one that was going to show us the place in Rockville. We got inside the car and we drove off and Mr Swala showed signs that he was so much in a hurry, he had to return, go back and we were dropped in Dube and he went back and we walked, now three of us, with that boy.
We got to a certain house, white in colour. There was a Cressida parked outside, yellow Cressida. We got inside. Fortunately as we were still sitting in the waiting room, we saw a gentleman coming out and he started stretching himself like this.
And this small boy showed us the person and said this is the person and said this is the right person and we thanked him.
MR MILLER: Just a couple of questions. Do you know who this small boy was?
MR DLAMINI: No, I did not know his name, because we did not talk much. I am not a person who talks a lot.
MR MILLER: Have you since found out who it is?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, subsequently I found out he was Cebekhulu.
MR MILLER: And this target, the man that came and stretched next to the car, who was he?
MR DLAMINI: I found out later that he was Asvat, after he was shot. He had white safari's on. He was just leaving one room from the building to another, that is when we saw him.
MR MILLER: So what happened after this, after Dr Asvat was pointed out to you, what happened next?
MR DLAMINI: He was shot after that.
MR MILLER: No, just let's take it slowly. You returned to the hostel after that, is that correct?
MR DLAMINI: You returned to the hostel, Mzamomhle hostel after that?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, we went back to the hostel in Mzamomhle.
MR MILLER: And then after a while Botha arrived, is that correct?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, after a while Botha arrived.
MR MILLER: And what happened, was there a conversation, a discussion?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, we discussed with Botha and Botha said everything is in place and that thing is ready and he gave us the firearm. He gave it to me myself, that is the first firearm, short like this.
MR DLAMINI: I wouldn't know because I don't know how to differentiate the guns. I don't know which kind of a gun is that and so on.
MR MILLER: By the way, where is Botha, do you know?
MR DLAMINI: I have just heard recently that Botha had been shot.
MR MILLER: So, the following day you returned to the surgery, this place that had been pointed out to you?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is true.
MR MILLER: What time was that that you went to the surgery?
MR DLAMINI: It was during the day. We had to book first. I was the one who wanted the card and asked Mbatha if he had a card and found out that Mbatha had his card. We went straight to the surgery.
When we got there, we sat down and there were quite a number of patients in the waiting room and we got inside as well and sat down. And the one who was not feeling well was Mbatha. And he was sitting in the waiting room. There was a lady who was registering or admitting patients there.
I sat there, I did not go on ahead, but Mbatha went on ahead to give the details as a patient.
MR MILLER: You said I heard a moment ago that Mbatha had a card. Is that right, did I hear you correctly?
MR MILLER: Where did he get this card from?
MR DLAMINI: It is up to him, I really don't know. We just talked about the card and he appeared to be having a card.
MR MILLER: What sort of card are we talking about?
MR DLAMINI: It is an appointment card, Doctor's appointment card.
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is true.
MR MILLER: So, you say that after a while you sat there in the surgery in the waiting room, waiting and then what happened?
MR DLAMINI: Mbatha came back after he had registered himself with a piece of paper. Because there were quite a number of patients, we told the lady who was admitting the patients that we are still going to buy some cigarettes and we will be back. And we left indeed.
We went to a park there, we sat there. And I took out the gun and as I was trying to shoot, the gun couldn't function well.
MR DLAMINI: I wondered and even said this gun is not functioning. We had to go back now. We went back to get another gun. We were looking for Botha at first. We were in Zone 1, at the garage in Meadowlands. We went to the hostel. Fortunately we found Botha there with Kgase fixing the car.
We left with him to a certain place there in Orlando. I don't remember quite well if it was Orlando and we got another gun. We parked our car outside and Botha got inside for quite some time and he came out and told us that everything is fine and I have another gun now. It was not as big as the other gun that we had at first.
We got inside the car, we drove back and he dropped us at the bottle store and Swala left. And we went back to that place. It was around half past two or three, I am not quite too sure. We got there, we got inside and the patients were no longer as many. We only saw two ladies who were in a critical stage.
Fortunately when we got inside, Mbatha went on, was told to go inside, to see the Doctor and I was waiting in the waiting room and suddenly I heard a gun shot, twice. And the security door was locked.
After some time Mbatha appeared next to the security door and suddenly I saw the security door opening. I got inside myself to see as to what was happening. I saw this gentleman laying down and we left the place.
Outside we saw an ambulance and the lady who was working inside there, got outside and was screaming outside for help and we fled the scene. They tried to chase us and Mbatha shot, shot right to the sky, a threatening shot and we ran and fled.
And they tried to chase us, the ambulance men, but they could not catch up with us. We got to as far as Diepkloof, it was around half past seven and we left for Mzamomhle. We took Botha and went to the house where we would be given our money, our pay and we left.
We parked our car outside and Swala got inside and he was supposed to be getting inside to get some money as we have already carried the mission and he got outside to tell us that the lady was not inside. And we started now complaining and said Botha, how can you do this to me. Because we were supposed to be paid now, we have carried out the task but it is not appearing as if we will be paid and we (indistinct) we will go and come back the following day.
We parted ways that evening. I went to my accommodation to the place where I was staying. The following day we planned that we will meet and go back again to claim our money. And he insisted that we will get that money and we parted ways with Botha.
The following day, the morning, after listening to the news, we found out that the police are in search of the people who killed the Doctor. We left, I tried to hide and I came across another newspaper and saw a picture outside and my picture outside, that was a drawn picture.
It was not my picture, quite well, there were some differences according to the picture that appeared on the newspaper. There were incisions on my face, but very short incisions. The difference in the identikit was that the incisions were longer, but what surprised me was that I saw my name and I got very scared at that stage when I saw my name and I decided not to walk around the streets during the day.
I went to seek a hiding place. I hid myself in that place. I did not trust anyone and I was running away from the police as well as the rest and I refrained from moving around during the day, I only walked around during the night.
I stayed for quite some time in that place and we lost each other with Mbatha and I did not know at that stage as to where Mbatha is. I began not to trust Mbatha and I kept on hiding even from Mbatha himself.
This went on for quite some time. And we went to Kliptown, that is myself and Mbatha. At that time the police were hot on our trail. We went to Kliptown until late - round about half past six or seven o'clock and when we came back, looking for Botha, we just couldn't get hold of Botha because he had left. We waited for quite some time in vain.
Mbatha went his different way, I went my different way as well, because I did not want Mbatha to know as to where I stayed. On a Sunday I went to (indistinct) and I stayed with another home boy of mine, who was a KwaZulu Natal policeman. We stayed there, we had some drinks, alcoholic beverages. I left him, I went out looking for my girlfriend.
And she was not at her place, I was told that she had been arrested by the police. And I realised that I was no longer safe. I left the place as quick as I arrived because I did not want the police to arrest me. A few days went by, let's just say that very same Sunday I went back to Diepkloof and when I got to Diepkloof I got wind that my brother had been taken away by the police.
They said he should point out as to where I was. I also ran away from there and I did not want to go to Mzamomhle. I wanted to look for Botha so that I could get my money and get out of the scene.
MR MILLER: Sorry Mr Dlamini, could we just cut this a little bit short please. Eventually you were arrested, is that correct?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I was arrested.
MR MILLER: And did you ever find Botha or get your money?
MR DLAMINI: No, I did not get even a cent out of that money, I was just convicted.
MR MILLER: Did you steal R145-00, did you or Mbatha steal R145-00 from the Doctor's surgery?
MR DLAMINI: No, we never stole any money. I personally never stole any money and I never saw Mbatha stealing any.
MR MILLER: Now, how do you feel about what you have done, is it a good thing or not?
MR DLAMINI: I feel so much regret because I did not have any problem with Asvat, I never had a grudge with him. And it is with the sincerest regret that I say this. I feel very troubled and I would like to approach the Asvat family and tell them how I feel about my deed.
MR MILLER: Well, Dr Asvat's brother is sitting right next to me on my right, the gentleman in the blue and white shirt, do you have anything to say to him?
MR DLAMINI: I ask for forgiveness. I think my conscience has been fighting with me for the past few years, that is why I have come before this Commission to come and put matters straight and tell the Commission that I did this and I take full accountability for it.
Especially because I never had a grudge. I think I was tempted by this sum of money. I saw it as a very lucrative deal at the time. But at this juncture I can say I am asking for forgiveness.
MR MILLER: Just one last question, you were not here yesterday so I must just tell you that Mr Mbatha gave evidence and basically what he said in so far as it differed from you is that you some how trapped him into committing the killing.
MR DLAMINI: He can put it that way if he wants to, but I think he was tempted by the money as well. Not specifically me, but maybe that is how he sees it or how he saw it then.
MR MILLER: What he suggested was that it was planned that you would commit the killing, but because his thumb print was on the card in the Doctor's surgery, he landed up doing it and it wasn't really what was planned. It was planned that you would do it?
MR DLAMINI: He is correct in that respect. I was also very doubtful, I did not want to shoot because I was scared. I did not want to do it, but I did want to be involved in the deal.
MR MILLER: Thank you Chairperson, no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MILLER: .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Miller. Mr Vally?
MR VALLY: Thank you Dr Boraine. Mr Dlamini, one day after you were arrested you made a statement to the police, is that correct?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I did give a statement to the police.
MR VALLY: And this statement you made voluntarily, without having been forced to make the statement?
MR DLAMINI: No, that is not true, I was assaulted before I submitted the statement.
MR VALLY: Let me come back to that then. I just want to ask you about certain items in the statement, before we go on with the rest of what you said.
I don't believe we have an Afrikaans interpreter here today. I will just translate it loosely, Chairperson. One of the items you say and this is your statement the day after you were arrested, which is on the 18th of February 1989. You mentioned someone called Johannes Ndlovo, is there such a person?
MR DLAMINI: No, I do not know Johannes Ndlovo.
MR VALLY: You say Johannes told me the following story. And then you quote, look, I am bought by Winnie Mandela and I must kill or shoot Dr Asvat dead. He gave me a 9 mm firearm short, or rather he showed me a 9 mm short firearm. He then took out a magazine and I counted six live rounds.
Do you recall telling the police this in your first statement?
MR DLAMINI: No, I have never said that to the police, I never spoke about a Johannes because I do not know any Johannes and I do not know a Johannes now.
I had been severely assaulted and shocked electrically by Major Moodley, Hesslinga and Bleecker. I never spoke about Johannes but that name came through one of the police who was present during our torture.
MR VALLY: Did you say anything about Mrs Mandela, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I spoke about Mrs Mandela as I am speaking now or as I have just spoken.
MR VALLY: You then went on in your first statement and you said that this particular Johannes Ndlovo used the false name Mandla Ekwanyana, is that correct?
MR DLAMINI: The person who gave that name was Mbatha. I couldn't have referred to Mbatha as Johannes, I knew Mbatha submitted a wrong name.
MR VALLY: Okay. You again mentioned Mrs Madikizela-Mandela in this statement ... (tape ends) ... and you say this is a sum of R20 000-00 do you recall that in your statement?
MR VALLY: I will come back to that.
MR MILLER: Deputy Chairperson, I can't really object, but I just wish to point out to all concerned, that Mr Dlamini is saying that he was tortured before making the statement and it appears now that he is not sticking by it, I would ask everyone to take into account that the fact of the torture and assault of which details he has given.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, that has been noted. Mr Vally?
MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chairperson. You then appear in court and in explanation of your plea on the 22nd of February 1989, and I will quickly read to you your questions and answers. Questions posed to you and your answers.
You were asked if you want to make a statement, you pleaded not guilty, you were asked if you wanted to make a statement regarding your plea and your response is I can't say anything because I know nothing about the allegations. I am prepared to answer questions posed by the court.
You were asked were you present on that day in that place, you said no, I don't know the address.
Were you in possession of a gun and ammunition and you said no. Do you know the deceased person, no, I don't even know accused 1, referring to Mr Mbatha. I have nothing further to say. Do you recall saying all this?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I do remember saying that. And I said that because of the circumstances. The police had tortured and assaulted me, they said I should point out the gun as well as this ammunition because they were alleging that I had an extra gun which I didn't have.
MR VALLY: So you completely denied everything, even knowing accused 1, this is in court?
MR DLAMINI: In court, the police had assaulted me earlier on. They even dipped me into a swimming pool and they electrocuted me.
They electrocuted my fingers and my whole body and I told them that I did not have much to say because they did not want to hear the truth of what happened, but they wanted me to admit to the statement that was made by Mbatha.
MR VALLY: You have given a completely different statement in court, a completely different plea explanation in court from the one you gave to the police which you allege was made under torture.
I am asking you why did you make that statement in court on the 22nd of February 1989, four days after you made the first statement to the police, a completely different statement. You said you didn't know anything, you didn't know the place, you didn't even know accused 1? I am asking you this question why did you make this statement in court?
It is completely different from your first statement to the police?
MR DLAMINI: I had no alternative but to do that, because the statement that I made was not produced in court by the police. They produced their own statement.
MR VALLY: Please listen to me carefully. You were asked very specific questions. What was recorded was what you answered. Question, were you present on that date in that place. Your answer, no I do not know that address.
Question, were you on the effected date in possession of a firearm and ammunition, your answer no.
Question, do you know the effected person, no, and then you volunteer, I don't even know accused 1, that is Mr Mbatha. I have got nothing further to say.
Very simply, why did you answer this way? What was your justification for doing so?
MR DLAMINI: It is because I had been tortured and I felt very bad and I felt that I wasn't going to cooperate with the police in any manner whatsoever, so I was deliberately misleading them because they didn't want to accept what I was saying, they wanted their own statement.
MR VALLY: Let's go on to your next statement. Do you recall someone from the TRC coming to see you, no before that, before the TRC, you were visited by Mr Moodley and Mr Hesslinga in connection with this incident in 1995, do you recall that?
MR DLAMINI: I would like to tell you about Mr Moodley and Hesslinga. When I was convicted they came ... (intervention)
MR VALLY: Just answer the question. The fist question is did they come and see you?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, Hesslinga came as well as Moodley.
MR VALLY: Was it approximately in July 1995?
MR DLAMINI: I wouldn't know the month.
MR VALLY: Well, we have given your Attorney a statement dated the 30th of July 1995. Do you recall making a statement to them, to Mr Moodley?
MR DLAMINI: We had an altercation with Mr Moodley. I gave him half the statement and I couldn't continue.
MR VALLY: In this statement you give details of being with a Mr Mdlalosi, drinking and Mr Botha came to you and said do you want money. You go into a story about how you went to a house in Orlando and this is when you met Mrs Winnie Mandela, as you put it. Do you recall the statement?
MR DLAMINI: No, Mr Mdlalosi made a mistake.
MR VALLY: I am not sure what you are referring to but did you say that Botha came to fetch you? The only name you have here is Botha, that Botha came to fetch you and took you to Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela's house?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is true.
MR VALLY: You are also referring to Katiza showing you where the surgery was and identifying Dr Asvat to you?
MR VALLY: You further go on to say that you went to the surgery, Mbatha gave his name. He was called, you heard shots, you saw Mbatha coming out? Do you recall that?
MR VALLY: Then you talk about how you didn't get your money and you were told to come back and you were arrested before you went back, do you recall that?
MR VALLY: So you are saying that some of the things that you told Mr Moodley in July 1995 are true and some are not true?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct. Moodley also tortured me so I did not want to tell him the truth, nor cooperate with him.
MR VALLY: When you made the statement in July 1995, were you tortured to make the statement?
MR DLAMINI: Not at that particular time, but because he tortured me in the first instance, I did not want to have any further dealings with him.
MR VALLY: You then made the statement to the TRC in September of this year, do you recall that?
MR VALLY: In this statement you say that after your arrest you voluntarily made a statement at Brixton Murder and Robbery squad. In my statement I admitted that Dr Asvat was killed by me and Cyril. Further it was not my intention to kill him, but that I had been hired to do so by Winnie Mandela.
Further that Winnie promised to pay us R20 000-00 for our operation.
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is what I said.
MR VALLY: Now you say in September 1997 to the TRC that you made your statement voluntarily to the police at Brixton Murder and Robbery squad and now you tell us, late November, early December 1997, that you did not make it voluntarily. Can you explain why? I am talking about the first statement to the police?
MR DLAMINI: I have said that I was tortured into making that statement. Some of the information I volunteered, but to obstruct the ends of justice, I decided not to divulge all the information that I had at my disposal.
MR VALLY: Let's go on. You also say in your statement to the Truth Commission's investigators, and I quote, during our murder trial my statement was not produced before court. When I enquired about it from Hesslinga and Moodley, I was ordered to keep quiet, can you tell me about this?
MR DLAMINI: Yes. What made me not to want to testify in court is that reason. I asked as to where the statement I made to Moodley and Hesslinga was, and Hesslinga said to me you must just shut up and he told me that he was going to take me back to the electric shocks for me to be electrocuted. I don't know whether it is (indistinct) or what. That is why I did not continue to pursue the matter with regard to my statement.
MR VALLY: Your statement to the Truth Commission, paragraph 52, this is your words "during the trial I and Cyril pleaded alibis on the advice of my pro deo counsel, Jan de Villiers, and that of Cyril.
From Cyril's statement he was at that stage denying that he ever admitted having shot Dr Asvat, whilst in my company. We did not disclosed in court that we had been hired by Winnie Mandela to kill Dr Asvat, because we were pleading alibi. Do you recall that?
MR DLAMINI: I have no knowledge of that allegation.
MR VALLY: Do you recall giving an interview to the Mail & Guardian?
MR DLAMINI: No, I don't remember because we don't have time for reporters in that prison where I am at the present moment.
MR VALLY: In your statement to the TRC you say in paragraph 60, on the 2nd of September 1997, I was approached by a reporter which posed as a TRC official and to who I narrated the very same story which to my surprise appeared in the newspapers, thus jeopardising my prison life.
The same reporter also informed me that he had also made it possible for Richardson to communicate with the TRC. Lastly the said reporter said Mr Joubert would come to see me in connection with my statement. Do you recall all this?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, there was a person who came to me. I do not know as to who this person is and I do not know as to where he came from.
MR VALLY: Do you recall making a statement to the reporter from the Mail & Guardian?
MR DLAMINI: To the journalist? The journalist said he's got another statement from Brixton. He approached me with that statement, that is all I know about him.
MR VALLY: You didn't speak to him?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, we did speak and at some stage I left him.
MR VALLY: Then we come to your final statement which your Attorney let us have this morning. I put it to you, I don't have to go through your statement, your Attorney has led you extensively on it, that there are a number of contradictory details all along the line. Your first statement to the police, your first statement where you gave an explanation for your plea, your argument in the Supreme court itself as to your responsibility for the murder of Dr Asvat, your subsequent statement in July 1995 to Mr Moodley, your subsequent article in the Mail & Guardian and finally your statement to us today.
I put it to you that since you have applied for amnesty, you are trying to justify your amnesty application by trying to create a political motivation for the murder of Dr Asvat.
MR DLAMINI: I did not motivate my application and said I had a political motive, but I am speaking the truth.
MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Dlamini.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Semenya?
MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson. Mr Dlamini, you have just confirmed that it must take a little bit of intelligence to lie honestly and convincingly. Now, let me ask you the first question.
Is the statement given to us today through your lawyer, a correct statement?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is a correct statement.
MR SEMENYA: Is that statement true in all its details?
MR DLAMINI: That is my statement.
MR SEMENYA: Is the statement given to us today through your lawyer correct in all its details?
MR SEMENYA: Okay. In this statement on page 2 you say you went to Mrs Mandela's house in Orlando, is that right?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I may not say it is Orlando, but I know.
MR SEMENYA: And you show it in Orlando right?
MR DLAMINI: I am not sure if it is Orlando, I was not quite familiar with the area. I did not know.
MR SEMENYA: You don't know where Orlando is and you don't know where Diepkloof is?
MR DLAMINI: We went to the house that we were taken by Botha to. As to which location it was or section, I don't know.
MR SEMENYA: Do you know where Diepkloof is?
MR DLAMINI: I don't know how to separate the locations or the townships. I arrived in 1984 or 1983 in Soweto.
MR SEMENYA: Don't you know where Diepkloof is and where Orlando is?
MR DLAMINI: I used to work in Baragwanath garage and I never used to travel a lot around the township.
MR SEMENYA: Don't you know the difference between the two?
MR DLAMINI: I don't know the difference between the two locations or sections.
MR SEMENYA: You see the interesting thing is the Orlando house was already under construction. Mrs Mandela was not staying at that house at that time at all.
MR DLAMINI: I may not refute that, but I went to her house.
MR SEMENYA: ... that it was in Orlando in your statement which you say is correct, I am saying she was not at that house. The whole world knows about that at least.
MR DLAMINI: That is why I keep insisting that I cannot separate the sections in Soweto, especially the two sections.
MR SEMENYA: In your statement which you made on the 30th of July 1995, even at that stage you say he then said he will take us to this woman. We then went with Botha by taxi to Orlando and was taken to the house of Winnie Mandela. You repeatedly say you have been to this house and it was in Orlando, even in that statement. Do you deny that?
MR DLAMINI: I had just explained that I don't know how to separate Orlando and Diepkloof. I don't know the difference, I cannot separate the two sections.
MR SEMENYA: Okay, your friend or your cousin rather, Mbatha, told the rest of the world through BBC and SABC in this country, that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela gave him the firearm in the hand. Was he honest on that one?
MR DLAMINI: Yes. That was the first gun I got from Botha, the one that I am talking about, the one that was not functioning well when I was trying to trigger.
MR SEMENYA: Your friend tells us that he got the firearm from Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's hand and at that moment he breaks down in tears. Was he honest when he was saying that to the rest of the world?
MR SEMENYA: So even you saw Mrs Madikizela-Mandela give a firearm in the hand of your cousin brother Mbatha?
MR DLAMINI: When we went back the second time with Botha in a car, I did not get inside. I did not get inside the house. I did not get inside, I was in the car, I remained in the car. They both got inside.
MR SEMENYA: Then now, and maybe for the last time, did you see Mrs Mandela give your cousin brother Mbatha a firearm in his hand?
MR DLAMINI: He got back with a gun already. The first gun that I got was the one that I got from Botha, but the second one I did not see because I was in the car.
MR SEMENYA: Just please, did you with your own eyes see Mrs Mandela give a firearm to Mbatha?
MR DLAMINI: I am just explaining that matter, that I did not get inside. I remained in the car whilst they both went inside. I did not see that, I was in the car.
MR SEMENYA: So you didn't see that?
MR DLAMINI: No, I did not see that.
MR SEMENYA: Are you now saying that Mbatha also went inside the house with Botha?
MR DLAMINI: They went inside and I remained in the car.
MR SEMENYA: You deny that you had earlier said that it was only Botha who went inside the house?
MR DLAMINI: No. Please repeat your question.
MR SEMENYA: Did you say it was only Botha who went inside the house?
MR DLAMINI: The second time Botha got inside after Dr Asvat was killed, he went inside the house alone. That was after the incident.
MR SEMENYA: Let me take you through the statements as you have made them.
MR VALLY: I am sorry to interrupt my learned friend. I am afraid there is a further statement which the witness made on the same day he was arrested. So in addition to the statements I have referred to, there is another. We are just giving a copy to Mr Semenya right now.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya do you need a few minutes to look at that, or do you have enough statements?
MR SEMENYA: I am sure I have enough statements for now, Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Please proceed then.
MR SEMENYA: Do you remember being in a helicopter going to the Westville prison in Natal?
MR DLAMINI: We were not going to Natal. I was in Westville prison.
MR SEMENYA: Do you remember that occasion when you were taken to Westville prison?
MR DLAMINI: I was not taken to Westville prison, I was moved from Westville prison to Pretoria with Moodley and Hesslinga.
MR SEMENYA: It is recorded here prisoner number 3585, that is yourself, right?
MR SEMENYA: Thulani Nicholas Dlamini was removed from Central prison to Westville prison Natal?
MR DLAMINI: No, something is not right there. I was in Westville prison in 1993. I was never removed from Central prison to Durban.
MR SEMENYA: ... the prisoner indicated that he is willing to make a further statement concerning the death of Dr Asvat?
MR DLAMINI: No, I had already submitted my statement, that was not showed to the police in Brixton, there was not another statement. I was with Moodley, Moodley fetched me from Natal and took me to Pretoria in the Central prison.
MR SEMENYA: That he was taken to the surgery by Mbatha who was instructed by Jerry to go and kill the Doctor Asvat?
MR DLAMINI: No, I refute all of that.
MR SEMENYA: ... but was taken there by Jerry a few hours and shown the place?
MR DLAMINI: No, Jerry never went with me to that place.
MR SEMENYA: Jerry was not present when the Doctor was killed?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, Jerry was not present.
MR SEMENYA: According to him the reason for his death was that he knew too much about the death of Stompie?
MR DLAMINI: I may not be able to explain many things as far as that is concerned, but the only thing that motivated me was money.
MR SEMENYA: He informed me that Jerry was also involved with one other murder that he knows about and he is willing to make a statement about this?
MR DLAMINI: That I don't know.
MR SEMENYA: So you don't know the other murder which Jerry is involved in?
MR DLAMINI: No. I don't know. I did say that I only met Jerry in prison when we were going to the hospital after we had been tortured by the Protea police. I only met him in prison.
MR SEMENYA: In the statement you gave to the TRC, under paragraph 18, you say that the discussions that you had with Mrs Mandela about the R20 000-00 was in December of 1988?
MR DLAMINI: As I said that that is the reason why I am here. I don't know the dates, I don't know any dates. It is been quite some time that I have been arrested, so I wouldn't be in a position to remember everything.
MR SEMENYA: But do you confirm that you killed for R20 000-00?
MR SEMENYA: Weren't you angry that you didn't get your R20 000-00?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I was angry to do a task and not get paid afterwards.
MR SEMENYA: ... a serious complaint to you that you had worked, now you are not even paid?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I was troubled very much that I carried a mission on and I was not paid for it.
MR SEMENYA: ... prepared to talk to the Judge? You are still angry, am I right that your R20 000-00 is missing?
MR DLAMINI: When I was in the court of law, I was convicted by Mbatha's statement that he submitted to the police. I had a State Attorney.
MR SEMENYA: When you were in front of the Magistrate, you were still angry that you did not receive your R20 000-00?
MR DLAMINI: Even in front of the Magistrate, I never said much. I was not that much infuriated.
MR SEMENYA: ... that you didn't receive your R20 000-00?
MR DLAMINI: I was angry but that was my business, and it was within me but now I was being convicted for murder.
MR SEMENYA: Then why don't you tell the Magistrate - do you want me to finish my question first?
CHAIRPERSON: Could the witness just wait for the completion of the question, thank you.
MR DLAMINI: I am sorry, I am so fast.
CHAIRPERSON: Please go ahead Mr Semenya.
MR SEMENYA: Why don't you tell the Magistrate at that moment you are angry you didn't get your R20 000-00 that you were promised this money by Mrs Mandela?
MR DLAMINI: The police were insisting on the robbery statement, I did not say anything in front of the Magistrate.
MR SEMENYA: Let me read you your cousin brother's statement. Do you know him quite well?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, not very well.
MR SEMENYA: Do you find him honest?
MR DLAMINI: I don't take him as an honest person. Only my siblings will I take them to be honest.
MR SEMENYA: Do you find your cousin brother honest, is my simple question?
MR DLAMINI: I will not say that because there is not anyone who is honest to me, even my girlfriend. I don't take my girlfriend to be honest to me.
MR SEMENYA: ... who you consider to be honest?
MR DLAMINI: I wouldn't trust people of this world. As I said I don't trust anyone or consider any other people to be honest.
MR SEMENYA: Nobody to you on this planet is honest? Or not even you is honest?
MR DLAMINI: I am honest to myself, not with others. I take myself to be honest.
MR SEMENYA: Your cousin brother says in one of the statements I am indeed responsible for murdering Dr Asvat. It was under the circumstances described above and I am sincerely sorry and regret what I did. But I believed I was doing it for the cause and to help people such as Mrs Mandela and our leaders to change the political order in South Africa.
MR DLAMINI: You are referring to Mbatha?
MR SEMENYA: Did he display this type of political convictions whilst you knew him?
MR DLAMINI: The statement that was in the court of law, was with regard to the robbery.
MR SEMENYA: Is that your final answer to my question then?
MR SEMENYA: Do you recall you were visited by an Attorney Brian Currin together with another Attorney Jody Collapin in prison?
MR DLAMINI: I will like to know who is that. No, I have never had such a visit.
MR SEMENYA: And they were at that time going throughout the country to help the prisoners with their amnesty applications in lieu of the amnesty that was granted before the TRC Act? You refute that?
MR SEMENYA: Brian Currin and Jody Collapin?
MR DLAMINI: I did explain there that I did not know anything about Brian Currin.
MR SEMENYA: You were confronted by them that they had received an unsigned affidavit which suggests that your conduct may have been political, you told them no, you are not willing to apply for amnesty because that story is not true, you have not - to use your words - even met the lady.
MR DLAMINI: No, I never met her. I cannot claim I have met her when I did not.
MR SEMENYA: ... two Attorneys of the stature of Mr Brian Currin and Jody Collapin would decide to tell an untruth about this?
MR DLAMINI: He doesn't know me. Brian Currin does not even know me, I never even spoke to him.
MR SEMENYA: When were you a member of the UDF?
MR DLAMINI: In 1982 I was still young, I was still a young boy then.
MR SEMENYA: You were just born in 1969, and in 1982 you were a member of the UDF?
MR DLAMINI: I was not an official member as such, but I would be a follower of UDF.
MR SEMENYA: Were you a member of the UDF?
MR DLAMINI: I was not a full member as such, I did not even have a card as such. But I was a follower of UDF.
MR SEMENYA: In your statement you say you know Maqina?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I know Maqina.
MR DLAMINI: I was still thinking, there are many people, even my inmates there in prison. You will have to explain to me which Maqina you are referring to. Some of my inmates' names are Maqina, so I wouldn't know which one you are talking about.
MR SEMENYA: In the statement you say the following "we then went to Diepkloof to see a person called Maqina at Diepkloof hostel." Was he staying there, Maqina?
MR DLAMINI: No, he was not staying there.
MR SEMENYA: Mbatha I then spoke to Maqina, asking him to lend Mbatha a firearm as we were going to use it? You deny this as well?
MR SEMENYA: Can I just ask you to identify the signature on this statement and tell us if it is yours.
MR DLAMINI: This is my signature.
MR SEMENYA: ... pending your signature on this document?
MR DLAMINI: I signed after I submitted my statement. I was told to sign there. He told me to sign and I was so confused, in a state of confusion at that time.
MR SEMENYA: ... your confusion which is apparent, were you forced to make this statement or not?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is how the whole thing was done. I was confused at the time because some things cropped up. There was a journalist around and my name is all over the newspapers and that troubled me a great deal. And he deceived me that he was coming from the TRC and yet he wasn't.
MR SEMENYA: How were you forced to sign the statement?
MR DLAMINI: He said now that I have already written the statement, I shall sign.
MR SEMENYA: ... no, I don't want to sign?
MR DLAMINI: The situation was just like that that I had to sign.
MR SEMENYA: What does that mean?
MR DLAMINI: I was in a state of confusion as to especially the way the things were happening.
MR SEMENYA: In the statement you go on and say but it did not say what we were going to do with it, Maqina then gave Mbatha a 9 mm Star firearm. Did you see Maqina give ...
MR SEMENYA: It was a pistol. We then left and went to our hostel. We slept in the hostel on Thursday, is that also not correct?
MR DLAMINI: No, that is not correct.
MR SEMENYA: And in the statement you are making numerous references to Jerry Richardson. You say now you did not know him at that time?
MR DLAMINI: I will not lie about Jerry Richardson and claim I knew or I know Jerry Richardson. The first time I met Jerry was in (indistinct), we were going to the hospital. Not that I knew him.
MR SEMENYA: Did you discuss your case with Jerry Richardson.
MR DLAMINI: No, I did not even discuss with Jerry anything, because we were tortured separately and we slept in different places. We could only come together when we were taken to the hospital by the police.
MR SEMENYA: And you are saying on the third week, Maqina came to Kliptown and wanted his firearm from Mbatha. Do you recall this?
MR DLAMINI: No. Maqina is not even here in Johannesburg. He is not even in Johannesburg, he is at home. How would I say that about Maqina if he was not even here.
MR SEMENYA: I just want to finally put it to you the version that you were ever, ever at Mrs Mandela's house, it is a lie.
MR DLAMINI: That is the truth and the only truth.
MR SEMENYA: Whilst in prison, have you made any efforts to ask Mrs Mandela to pay you your R20 000-00?
MR DLAMINI: No, I made no effort. The one that I was after was Botha Swala.
MR SEMENYA: When you are in prison, don't you try and write to Mrs Mandela, now really, it is eight years now, or whatever the time, I want my R20 000-00 back, I want my R20 000-00?
MR DLAMINI: I did not even have her address, no details of her. I wouldn't have written to Mrs Mandela. The one that I was always after was Swala. He is the one that I was after and I wanted him to give me money or get it.
MR SEMENYA: ... the one who owed you money was this Swala because even in your earlier statements and that of Cyril Mbatha, the killing of Dr Asvat was a pure criminal conduct intended to rob him of money, what is your response?
MR DLAMINI: .. chance to escape. If it was robbery, Mbatha would have taken money because we had ample time. That was not robbery.
MR SEMENYA: Mbatha tells us after the shooting you went inside too, is that right, to make sure that the Doctor is dead?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I did go inside. Yes.
MR SEMENYA: And you recall him trying to escape through the window?
MR DLAMINI: I was outside when he shot twice. I got inside and at the time when I was getting inside, he was already laying down dead.
MR SEMENYA: Mr Dlamini, there is no connection whatsoever between yourselves and Mrs Mandela around your killing of Dr Asvat?
MR DLAMINI: It is my first time to hear that from you.
MR SEMENYA: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SEMENYA: .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, I am sure there are several of you who want to ask questions. May I please remind you that you should state your name and who you represent for the record, thank you. Please go ahead.
MR KADES: Normal Kades appearing for the Asvat family. Mr Dlamini, you say in the statement submitted here this morning that you were born in 1969 and you schooled at Ngoma where you completed standard 5?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is true.
MR KADES: Can you read and write English?
MR KADES: A little bit read or a little bit write, or a little bit of both?
MR DLAMINI: I can read English, but writing it, I can write it a little bit.
MR KADES: Can you read a newspaper in English?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I can read a newspaper in English.
MR KADES: Now, you were arrested on the 17th of February of 1989, is that correct?
MR DLAMINI: Please repeat your question.
MR KADES: You were arrested on the 17th of February of 1989?
MR DLAMINI: Although I don't remember the date.
MR KADES: And you made a statement on that day, was that within hours of your arrest?
MR DLAMINI: Please repeat your question?
MR KADES: Was that within hours of your arrest?
MR DLAMINI: Yes. I was arrested the previous day and made the statement the following day.
MR KADES: Oh. Well the first statement I have is a statement dated the 17th of February 1989. In that statement you implicate Mrs Mandela essentially the same story you told today.
MR KADES: And in the statement that you make thereafter, the statement that you make on the 18th of February, you again implicate Mrs Mandela?
MR KADES: And you consistently as I understand, except for your court appearance, have consistently implicated Mrs Mandela when you have made statements, is that correct?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.
MR KADES: The R20 000-00 that you say was due to come to you, it was half to be paid to Mbatha and half was to be paid to you, is that correct?
MR KADES: And who was to collect the money from Mrs Mandela?
MR DLAMINI: All of us, including Botha was supposed to go fetch the money from Mrs Mandela.
MR KADES: Can you tell us a little more about Botha, where did you say he was killed, or where do you say he was shot?
MR DLAMINI: I was already in prison and I heard from a person who visited me, that Botha was shot next to Baragwanath and he died there.
MR KADES: And he died? And that was some time this year?
MR KADES: Thank you Mr Commissioner.
MR DLAMINI: Yes, it is this year, recently.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KADES: .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you, who is next? Nobody else? Yes please?
MS ?: Good morning, I am Nicole (indistinct) on behalf of Mr Mbatha.
MS ?: Mr Dlamini, just going back to Botha, you say in your statement that you met him at the club house at the hostel, was that the first time you met him?
MR DLAMINI: That was not the first time I met him. I knew him from a distance. I used to see him.
MS ?: In your statement you also say that he was, he knew Mrs Mandela and members of the Football Club. In your understanding how was he associated to Mrs Mandela?
MR DLAMINI: I wouldn't know because he used to travel a lot.
MS ?: But were you satisfied that he knew Mrs Mandela well?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I was satisfied.
MS ?: When was the first time that the amount of R20 000-00 was mentioned to you and by whom was it mentioned?
MR DLAMINI: The first time it was Mr Swala and we even went to Mrs Mandela and I heard it myself, the R20 000-00 issue.
MS ?: Did he mention it to you at the club house at the hostel in that meeting that you had?
MR DLAMINI: He did mention something about money, but not the sum of money or the amount.
MS ?: Because in your statement you mention that he specifically said that you would be paid R20 000-00 and that was at the hostel?
MR DLAMINI: He did talk about money, that it was a large amount of money, but never mentioned the sum of money as to how much it was.
MS ?: Another question I have. I've got two statements here of yours. In the statement that Mr Miller led you on this morning, you said that when you went to the house, the door was opened by an elderly lady, is that correct?
MS ?: However, in another statement you mention that it was opened by a young girl who spoke to you in Xhosa? What is your comment on a young lady and an elderly lady?
MR DLAMINI: I think there is a misunderstanding there, it was an elderly lady who was speaking in Xhosa, not a young girl.
MS ?: So this statement where it was a young girl, is incorrect then?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that statement is incorrect, it is wrong.
MS ?: When you met Mrs Mandela with, according to you you were there with Botha and Mr Mbatha, what details did she give you specifically about the job that had to be done? What did she tell you about this job that you were going to get paid R20 000-00 for?
MR DLAMINI: When we arrived there inside the house, she said she trusted and hoped that we understand exactly what we have to do from the guy that we were with because she knew him very well and said she hoped that we had every information with regard to that.
MS ?: Did she give you every information with regard to that or was it assumed that you knew it all?
MR DLAMINI: She assumed that Botha had already given us all the details with regard to that issue. Because we started while we were discussing the money issue.
MS ?: So, everyone was satisfied, Mrs Mandela at the meeting was satisfied that you knew all the details. You were satisfied that you knew all the details and the only concern that you had was the financial issue?
MR DLAMINI: Yes. The prime thing was money and that is the very thing that motivated me.
MS ?: So you knew who you had to kill, did you know why you had to kill him?
MR DLAMINI: No. We did not know.
MS ?: So if I understand you correctly, you didn't have many details, you didn't know why you had to kill him, you perhaps knew you were going to get a gun that you were going to kill him with and it wasn't clearly confirmed as to what the actual reason was that you were going to kill him? You didn't, it was assumed that all the details had been given to you?
With this in mind, with hardly any details, no promise of money being given to you, a woman that you say in your statement you did not trust, you were quite prepared to go out and kill a man you didn't even know?
MR DLAMINI: Please repeat your question.
MS ?: With hardly any details, you say that you didn't know whether you were going to get paid properly, you didn't trust Mrs Mandela, that financial issue hadn't been clarified, the details had been assumed. Mrs Mandela assumed you knew who, what and why you had to kill. Maybe Mr Botha hadn't given you all the details correctly.
The details of a murder of a prominent man was going to take place and everyone was assuming details had been clarified with everybody else, no no details had been clarified, you didn't have any promise of getting paid, you didn't trust this woman and yet you were quite prepared to go kill a man for no reason. No reason had been explained to you? Do you understand?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I understand. May I answer?
MR DLAMINI: The thing that attracted me was money, and motivated me was money as I was unemployed at the time. All the other details did not very much matter to me because I did not know ... (intervention)
MS ?: It was alright to go kill a man then?
MR DLAMINI: Please repeat what you have just said?
MS ?: So you were quite prepared to go kill a man for R20 000-00 even if you didn't know if he was a good man or a bad man? The motivation was R20 000-00?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is correct.
CHAIRPERSON: I wonder if you could start finishing up please, I think you have made your point.
MS ?: Who was it that was supposed to go and identify himself or register at the Doctor's surgery?
MS ?: According to Mr Mbatha's statement, he says that you asked him to do him a favour and he asked you to go inside and book for him?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is true.
MS ?: Were you meant to book initially and then you asked Mr Mbatha to book for you instead?
MR DLAMINI: It is because I did not have an ID.
MS ?: According to Mr Mbatha, neither did he. Did you know that you had to give a thumb print?
MR DLAMINI: I was not aware of that.
MS ?: I have no further questions.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS ?: .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Richard?
MR RICHARD: Thank you Mr Chairman. One question. You have already given evidence that Mr Richardson was not involved at any stage in the commission of this offence. Is that correct.
MR RICHARD: And any suggestion to the contrary is rubbish, is that also correct?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, it is correct.
MR RICHARD: Nothing further, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR RICHARD: .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Miller?
MR MILLER: Nothing further, Deputy Chairperson.
MR VALLY: Nothing further Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much for your, I beg your pardon. I wish I could see the panellists, like I can see the rest of you. I was hoping to avoid them - not really. There are some questions now from the panel I assume. If I am going to start from that side, Dr Mgojo?
DR MGOJO: Thank you Deputy Chairperson, I would like to ask my question in Zulu because these statements are confusing Thulani Dlamini. I do trust and hope that you understand what I mean when I say they are confusing.
What I don't understand is that the only reason why you wanted and agreed to murder a person that was not known to you, for money, is that so?
DR MGOJO: If it was said that the person who was supposed to be killed, was your brother, what would you have said?
MR DLAMINI: What attracted me as I said, was money, as I was unemployed at the time.
DR MGOJO: To the extent that you agreed to kill a person that was not known to you?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I told myself that when that person is being identified to me to kill, I will kill.
DR MGOJO: You mean any other person that you would have been shown?
DR MGOJO: It is apparent that you got a firearm. Did you ever use a firearm before?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I was taught by one of the people.
DR MGOJO: When did that person teach you?
DR MGOJO: You arrived here knowing how to use the firearm?
MR DLAMINI: I learnt how to operate the firearm in 1987 and load it with ammunition.
DR MGOJO: Where in Ngoma or here?
DR MGOJO: I am referring to what I heard you say because you are talking in Zulu and I understand Zulu because I am a Zulu. You say the motivation factor here was not only money but you trusted also Botha. You trusted Botha and how long had you known Botha?
MR DLAMINI: I knew Botha since I was a young boy.
DR MGOJO: You trust him even to date?
MR DLAMINI: You mean Botha? I don't trust him since that incident.
DR MGOJO: You went on ahead and said you were not quite used to Mbatha?
MR DLAMINI: We were not quite close, I knew him from a distance.
DR MGOJO: By the way remind me about Mbatha, do you have one mother or are your mothers' sisters?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, our mothers are sisters.
DR MGOJO: They come from one home?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, they come from one home and they were born of one woman.
DR MGOJO: According to what you think, you killed Dr Asvat and ran away. Who else saw you?
MR DLAMINI: According to the testimony that was rendered in a court of law, a certain young girl saw us, identified us, saw us when we were running away.
MR DLAMINI: Yes, I still remember her a little bit, it was Veronica Hlatwayo.
DR MGOJO: She is the one who saw you?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, she saw me. She did not know Mbatha.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mgojo, are you nearly finished?
DR MGOJO: My last and final question. You were talking about Maqina. Maqina lives at home, but not here in Johannesburg. At the time that Maqina went to Mbatha to claim for his gun, where was that happening?
MR DLAMINI: That I don't know.
DR MGOJO: But you signed, let me read from your statement on the 30th of July 1995. There is your signature there, the third paragraph from the bottom reads it is on the 3rd that Maqina came to Kliptown and wanted his firearm from Mbatha. Mbatha gave him his firearm, we had a few drinks together. A while later we were arrested. Is it true that you were arrested here in Johannesburg?
MR DLAMINI: Maqina is not here.
DR MGOJO: Is it true or is it correct that you were arrested here in Johannesburg?
MR DLAMINI: We were arrested in Marafe the two of us, there was not that person.
DR MGOJO: Now according to this statement this is what has been said and you signed it, who wrote that statement?
DR MGOJO: But there is your signature there?
MR DLAMINI: This is why I keep reiterating the fact that there are so many statements that were shown to me and they added their own versions.
DR MGOJO: You kept signing all the statements yourself?
DR MGOJO: Thank you Mr Chairman.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Dr Mgojo. Yasmin Sooka?
MS SOOKA: Mr Dlamini, I counted you made a statement on the day you were arrested, the next day you made another statement, is that right? You made one first to Van Zyl and the next day you made one to Mr Zeelie, is that right? You can't remember?
MR DLAMINI: No, I can't remember.
MS SOOKA: In your first statement you made, you mention somebody called Johannes. Why did you mention a Johannes and who was Johannes?
MR DLAMINI: I don't know Johannes.
MS SOOKA: So why did you put his name in your statement?
MR DLAMINI: This is why I explained that I don't know Johannes. I was arrested with Mbatha.
MS SOOKA: When you went to court, did someone represent you like Mr Miller is representing you now?
MR DLAMINI: I had a State Attorney who was representing me.
MS SOOKA: Did you tell him that you had made two statements to the police already?
MR DLAMINI: I made one statement, I only submitted one statement in Brixton. There is no other place where I have submitted my statement.
MS SOOKA: Did you tell your State Attorney that you had made a statement?
MR DLAMINI: We did not understand each other with my Attorney, because I said he should show me or take out the statement first from the Brixton police station and said I should leave that statement alone, I should forget that. I said I cannot be able to go on and testify about things that I don't know.
MS SOOKA: Did you tell the Judge in the Supreme court that you had made a statement to the Brixton police where you told them that you had been asked to kill Dr Asvat for money and that you had been instructed to do so by Mrs Mandela? Did you tell the Judge that?
MR DLAMINI: As I explained, I did not even say anything in front of the Judge at the Supreme court. I was only convicted on a different matter. They just said I shall say whatever I wanted to say.
MS SOOKA: Isn't it true that you killed Dr Asvat for money and not because of any political reason? It was for the money alone?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, it was for the money alone.
MS SOOKA: So there is no political motive associated with that act?
MR DLAMINI: It was not politically motivated. I was an IFP member.
MS SOOKA: Tell me, in the statement that you gave to our investigators, at paragraph 59 it says, in 1996 Mr Moodley came back to inform me that Botha Swala had disclosed in his statement that the two firearms I spoke about in my statement, were in possession of Maqina.
MS SOOKA: So why is that mentioned in your statement? Did Mr Moodley ever tell you that he went to meet Swala Botha and that he took a statement from him?
MR DLAMINI: I disliked Mr Moodley at that time, I did not even want to see him or have anything to have with him since they electrocuted me.
MS SOOKA: So what is in this statement is not true? You don't know whether Mr Moodley took a statement from Swala Botha?
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mrs Mkhize?
MS MKHIZE: Mr Dlamini, just a few questions just to straighten up your record because you tell us you were made to submit many statements. You say you used to be a UDF follower in Nongoma or a sympathiser. At the time the UDF was not existing, can you explain or shed more light?
MR DLAMINI: There were people that arrived from (indistinct) and various places and I was a person who used to follow.
I used to be a person who sympathise with the UDF group and there was one boy who joined UDF from Umlazi and he tried to form UDF in the area and he had no membership cards and we were quite a group of school boys and we liked UDF.
MS MKHIZE: Do we agree about the fact that the UDF was not existing at that time?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, the boy came and he said he was UDF and he wants to form UDF.
MS MKHIZE: And about Nongoma, Nongoma was predominantly Inkatha area.
MR DLAMINI: That place is quite big. Very much massive and there were many different groups.
MS MKHIZE: You say you lived in Mzamomhle and quite a number of your friends were ANC members? Was there an ANC organisation at the hostel or were many of the ANC hostel dwellers?
MR DLAMINI: No, I had many friends from the location, not from the hostel.
MS MKHIZE: I thought you said you did not know the location very well, or the sections very well?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, that is true. They used to come and visit me at the hostel.
MS MKHIZE: In the other statement, you make mention of something else. I don't know, maybe this one is this morning's statement.
The point of departure is it is not true that I met Jerry Richardson prior to the incident which I am about to describe? You say from the statement that we had yesterday Botha talked and they looked as if they were friends, or they were used to each other?
MS MKHIZE: So the other one, it was not submitted by you?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, they just wrote their own version, especially Moodley. Moodley wrote so many statements that I did not know because he wanted us, myself and Jerry to appear as if we knew each other, that was his problem.
MS MKHIZE: From your opinion could it be that Mrs Mandela was careless about the fact that she spoke to you about murder and not even knowing you very well and coming from a different political organisation also?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, she was careless in that regard, but Botha Swala was the cause of it.
MR DLAMINI: I may not explain much, but since I was attracted and motivated by money, I did not even know as to which political organisation she belonged to.
DR RANDERA: Mr Chairperson, three short questions, I promise you.
DR RANDERA: I promise. Mr Dlamini, I know you said earlier on that you have difficulty being honest with other people but yourself to Mr Semenya. Now I want you to please try and be as honest with us as possible and don't feel under pressure.
DR RANDERA: I am going to work from the statement you gave to the TRC, because there are too many statements. I am going to work from that one. You say in your statement to us that the first time you went to Mrs Mandela's house, was sometime in December 1988?
Now I know that it is very difficult to remember exact dates, but December is a very important time. The one thing everybody remembers is Christmas, am I right or wrong?
MR DLAMINI: Yes, we always remember December.
DR RANDERA: Okay, now was it before Christmas that you went to Mrs Mandela's house or after Christmas that you went to Mrs Mandela's house?
MR DLAMINI: I am not in a position to say whether it was before or after Christmas.
DR RANDERA: But you are sure it was in December?
MR DLAMINI: That is why I am explaining that.
DR RANDERA: Okay, let me move on. Mr Dlamini, again in your statement to the TRC, you say you met Mr Richardson and Mr Swala in 1987 already?
DR RANDERA: Okay, let me ask anyway seeing that - have you ever worked for the police yourself, have you ever been an informer or have you worked for the police?
MR DLAMINI: No, I have never been an informer, police informer.
DR RANDERA: Okay, my last question and I want to take you to the day that you went and killed Dr Asvat. Now, I know the area where the surgery is. If I remember that area behind the surgery, at that time, it was mainly open veld. On the other side is old Potchefstroom road and very close by is a police station.
What I am trying to understand is that you are going to this house, you are wanting to kill this man knowing full well that the area is not somewhere you can just disappear into, you don't have a car when you go to the house. A few questions I want you to answer. One is have you killed people before?
MR DLAMINI: No, I had never killed anyone before.
DR RANDERA: Number 2, given all the confusing statements you have made, is it possible that somebody else said they are going to pay you, either another political organisation or some other grouping to kill Dr Asvat?
MR SEMENYA: Mr Chairman, I have now since read the statement we were given this morning. May I just put one aspect of that statement to the witness?
MR SEMENYA: The statement which you purportedly made on the same day of your arrest reads as follows. It is in Afrikaans I will try to translate it. Johannes knows my reputation as a man who can shoot very well with a firearm.
He heard from other people that I was very much involved in tribal wars in Mahlabatini.
MR SEMENYA: Where would the police on the day of your arrest get this information from?
MR DLAMINI: They would have to explain that.
MR DLAMINI: I am talking about the police. There are many things that are in that statement like Johannes that I bear no knowledge of.
MR SEMENYA: No further questions, thank you.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR SEMENYA: .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Thulani Dlamini. Thank you very much for appearing before the Commission. You have had a lot of questions. I hope you are feeling all right and we ask you now to stand down. Thank you very much.
CHAIRPERSON: We will now adjourn for a very short tea break. Could we be back by ten past eleven thank you.
CHAIRPERSON: The following witness is Mr Gift Ntombeni.
MR UNTERHALTER: Chairperson, I could probably lead this witness if it is necessary?
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much Mr Unterhalter. Mr Ntombeni, thank you for coming. I think it will be advisable to use the earphones. Can you hear my voice coming through?
I must apologise to you on behalf of the Commission for keeping you waiting for so long. I am sorry about that. I know it is not easy to wait your turn, but we have had a lot of other people that we had to listen to as well.
CHAIRPERSON: Please I am so sorry, if you wouldn't mind going again and stating your name.
MR UNTERHALTER: It is David Unterhalter, I have been asked by the Commission to lead this witness' evidence.
CHAIRPERSON: Can we have order so that we can hear the leading of evidence and the replies of the witness, thank you.
MR UNTERHALTER: Mr Ntombeni, you were born in 1972, is that correct?
MR UNTERHALTER: And in 1988 you were 16 years old, is that correct?
MR UNTERHALTER: Could you tell the Commission in 1987 of your involvement with the formation of the Mandela Football Club?
MR NTOMBENI: There was a conflict within the youth league and Mama Winnie came to intervene and create some peace within the youth league. We went to her place and held this meeting. We came to an agreement that we should create peace.
She invited us to stay over at her place. She said we were welcome to stay at her place. There was Bonawege, but he is now late. Bonawege came with a plan that instead of just loitering around the streets, we should form a football club so as to keep ourselves busy and we told him that we were going to approach Mama with that idea that we wanted to open up a football club.
We met Nomzamo and Nomzamo told us she was going to help in any manner that she could, that is how the Mandela Football Club was formed. We started playing soccer and we were training, we got ourselves a coach, Jerry Richardson and he came to coach us.
The first club that we played with was the Brothers Football Club and we went on to play with the Sawelo Club.
MR UNTERHALTER: Now, was the club then formed with the blessing of Mrs Mandela?
MR UNTERHALTER: But the club did not only play football. Could you tell us what they club did in respect of disciplining members of the community?
MR NTOMBENI: We used to assault the people in that yard and Zinzi was present as well as Nomzamo. At times she wasn't there, she had gone to school and we would go out looking for the culprits and assault them.
MR UNTERHALTER: Who were these culprits that you are referring to and what had they done?
MR NTOMBENI: The first one was Mkosana. Mkosana was arrested with the number plates of the cars that were there and we asked him as to where he got this number plates of the cars. He explained that he used to take number plates, it was his hobby, and he was suspected of being an impimpi. He couldn't just go around writing the car plates of each and every car. That is how he got to be assaulted.
MR UNTERHALTER: And am I correct in saying that the form of discipline was assault?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, that is correct, we assaulted these people and we would torture some and burn their feet. Some we would inscribe or write them using some plastic utensils. It is not clear this aspect, that is how we tortured them.
Like the other two, we inscribed ANC. Zinzi was the first one to inscribe the ANC letters on the other one's chest as well as the back. After assaulting them, we would chase them out of the yard.
MR UNTERHALTER: At this time, did Mrs Mandela know of these assaults that you were carrying out with members of the football club?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, she knew very well.
MR UNTERHALTER: Did she participate in any of these assaults?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I could say that she used to take part because she is the one who usually starts the assault, then we would all follow.
MR UNTERHALTER: Am I correct in saying that you left the football club as a member, in about January 1988?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, that is correct.
MR UNTERHALTER: And under what circumstances did you leave the club?
MR NTOMBENI: There was a disappearance of Sizwe Sithole's brother. His name was Sinet and we discovered his body next to the river, he had been killed. And this effected me, I went to Sizwe and I told Sizwe. Sizwe asked me as to why I was crying. I told him that we got Sinet's body next to the river.
And Zinzi was furious with me, she asked me why I told Sizwe that Sinet had died. She asked me as to where I got the right to divulge such information and she said to me I was an impimpi. I realised that I was no longer safe in those premises as well as a member of the football club.
MR UNTERHALTER: And so you left?
MR UNTERHALTER: Were you approached by Sizwe or any other members of the club and threatened thereafter?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes. Sizwe together with Lukhile got to Ethel Ngobesi's place where I used to go. It was at night and he said he wanted to see me outside. I went with him outside. He said he was looking for Tholi. I told him that Tholi and Lerothodi had gone up and he said I should go with him, but I refused.
He said he knew about the night vigil that I was going to go to, but he was looking for Tholi and I should help him look for Tholi and he pointed the firearm at me and forced me to go with him. And we went with him because he pointed a firearm at me. He said I should get into Tholi's place and look for Tholi.
They said Tholi had just gone out. We went further down the street to Nhlongo's place. We got Lerothodi and Tholi. They fought, there was an altercation of sorts. Sizwe was fighting Nqlanqla. They wanted to get a firearm, that is Jabu's firearm.
Tholi took the gun that was from Nqlanqla and gave it to Sizwe and Tholi went further down leaving us at Nhlongo's place. And when we got to a certain place, we saw Lerothodi and I told him that they were looking for Tholi was shot.
And as we were running, we saw the micro bus, (indistinct) and Zinzi as well as Shoes were inside the micro bus, that is Mrs Mandela's micro bus.
MR UNTERHALTER: Who shot Tholi?
MR UNTERHALTER: Now, after this incident, were you approached again by members of the club?
MR NTOMBENI: Winnie came to me on a Sunday. She told me that she was from Cape Town and she wanted to know as to who issued the order for Tholi to be killed. She called me to Tholi's place.
He said we did not know. Then he said Gift was there. I was taken by Sizwe to that place. Then she left us there.
MR UNTERHALTER: I see. Were you approached by two members of the club, Shoes and Sipho, at any point and asked to come to Mrs Mandela's office?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, we were at the swimming pool, that was myself and Lerothodi, when we got to the swimming pool Shoes and Sipho came and said Nomzamo was calling us, she wanted to see us at the office and we went to the office.
When we got to the office, she said yes informer?
MR UNTERHALTER: Sorry, who are you referring to? Is that Mrs Mandela?
MR UNTERHALTER: Oh, I beg your pardon.
MR NTOMBENI: From there she told Shoes to put us into a car and take us to Diepkloof and at that stage Lerothodi Ikaneng ran away and I was left with this gang.
They took me to Diepkloof. I got Tholo and Biza who were busy being assaulted and I was also assaulted at that stage.
MR UNTERHALTER: Who assaulted you?
MR NTOMBENI: I was assaulted by Guy Boy as well as Sledge. I don't remember the other ones who assaulted me, but there were a lot of them who were assaulting.
MR UNTERHALTER: Can I just for the sake of clarity, you were taken to the office and it was said that you were an informer. Who said to you that you were an informer, who accused you of being an informer?
MR NTOMBENI: Winnie Mandela said I was an informer.
MR UNTERHALTER: Now, after you were assaulted at the house, what happened to you, were you let go after that incident?
MR NTOMBENI: We stayed there for four days so that we could recover and we should not be discovered that we had been assaulted.
MR UNTERHALTER: Did you see Mrs Mandela in the course of those four days?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, she was present. She would just go to the office and come back in the evening, or late afternoon.
MR UNTERHALTER: Did she know that you had been assaulted?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, she knew because she used to start the assaults. Even at the office, she assaulted us and when we got to the room, that is called Fish Oil, she assaulted us.
MR UNTERHALTER: Now, after you left Mrs Mandela's house, were you approached again by Modondo and Katiza Cebekhulu about an attack on Sibusiso Chili?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, Katiza Cebekhulu together with Zakhele Mbatha and Maxwell Modondo came to us. They said we should go. I asked them as to where we were going to and they said it is (indistinct) that is Sibusiso Chili. I asked as to what we were supposed to do. They said they had got an order from Mama that (indistinct) should be killed. I refused to go with them and I met Todo.
MR NTOMBENI: I do not know Todo's real name. We used to refer to him as Todo. Then I told Todo that they were going to attack (indistinct) place only to find that Todo had gone earlier on to tell the family of Sibusiso Chili that there was going to be an attack.
MR UNTERHALTER: And what happened next?
MR NTOMBENI: Killa came back running to tell me that Maxwell had been arrested. He said that he had been apprehended by the other members of the football gang.
We went down, he showed me a suitcase in which there was a gun that he had had earlier on.
MR UNTERHALTER: Do you know what happened to Maxwell Modondo?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I saw him. He was laying on the ground and at the time Winnie Mandela arrived together with Morgan.
MR UNTERHALTER: How did she arrive?
MR NTOMBENI: She was driving a red Audi. She just looked and drove by.
MR UNTERHALTER: Did she look at Modondo's body?
MR NTOMBENI: She never got out of the car, she just looked at him whilst she was inside the car, she sort of drove by, but she did look at him.
MR UNTERHALTER: Do you know anything about the attack upon Dudu Chili's house?
MR NTOMBENI: No. That day I wasn't there. I had been arrested at the Protea police station.
MR UNTERHALTER: Why were you arrested?
MR NTOMBENI: I do not know, they just took me and arrested me. They later released me on that very same day.
MR UNTERHALTER: In 1992, you left South Africa for Uganda, is that correct?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, that is correct.
MR UNTERHALTER: Why did you leave the country?
MR NTOMBENI: Nomzamo had actually bought people to kill me, that is the boy that I was with at the Unit.
MR UNTERHALTER: Who are you referring to?
MR NTOMBENI: Winnie Mandela hired an assassin with whom I was sharing some residence and she said that I was an informer, I was going to sell the whole group out so I just deserved to be killed.
MR UNTERHALTER: Now, have you seen Mrs Mandela since that time?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, on the 23rd it was on a Sunday, she sent ... (intervention)
MR UNTERHALTER: Sorry, can I just get the date from you please. You say on the 23rd, which month and which year?
MR NTOMBENI: On the 23rd of November 1997. She sent Jakes Mgojo to come and fetch me. Mgojo didn't tell me straight that I was being sought after by Winnie, but he only told me when we were approaching Mandela's place and said Mrs Mandela was sick.
She asked me as to whether I was going to testify at the Truth Commission. I told her yes, I was going there and she asked me as to with who was I going to testify. I counted the names of the people and she said I should go and call these people, but Morgan refused to go there. We went back and told Winnie that Morgan had refused to come. She said we should wait, she was still busy with her Attorneys.
MR UNTERHALTER: Did she say anything to you as to whether you should or should not testify before the Truth Commission?
MR NTOMBENI: No,she just said I should wait and I told her that I wanted to go. Mgojo went back and I also went back.
MR UNTERHALTER: Did you consult with any of her legal advisers, Mrs Mandela's legal advisers or not?
MR UNTERHALTER: Can I ask you just a few supplementary questions. Were you subpoenaed to come and give evidence before the Truth Commission?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I did get a subpoena, although it didn't have my surname on it.
MR UNTERHALTER: You have made reference to a person called Todo, could that person be Jacob Todo Mahope?
MR UNTERHALTER: And lastly, do you know whether there are any family links between Zinzi Mandela and Sizwe Sithole?
MR UNTERHALTER: What is that link?
MR NTOMBENI: Sizwe is Zinzi's daughter's father, Bambatha.
MR UNTERHALTER: Thank you Mr Chairman.
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR UNTERHALTER: .
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you very much. Mr Vally?
MR VALLY: Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Ntombeni, the last time we called you to give evidence, you heard Mr Semenya objecting. He alleged that we had bribed you, is there any truth in this allegation?
MR NTOMBENI: No, there is nothing of that sort.
MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, maybe for correctness, I communicated to the TRC that I have information that the witness has been offered money. I didn't make the allegation that the witness was bribed. To put it at that level would mean that I am making the allegation, I communicated an information which was given to me. To me those are two different things.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Semenya.
MR VALLY: And he is correct, I also have to record that we have yet to get Mr Semenya to prove this but the witness will be under cross-examination by Mr Semenya. I am sure he could put it to him.
You are presently under the witness protection of the TRC, is that correct?
MR VALLY: Just some of the statements you have made when you were led by your Advocate, I want to ask you about the incident where you refer to I think you said Zinzi carved certain letters into someone's chest? Do you recall that?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I do. I was present on that day.
MR VALLY: Can you tell us where this happened?
MR NTOMBENI: It happened at the shack, the shack that we called Lusaka within Mrs Mandela's yard.
MR VALLY: Do you recall who the people were who these things were done to?
MR NTOMBENI: No, I don't remember the victim.
MR VALLY: If I refer to the Makanda brothers, do that ring a bell at all?
MR NTOMBENI: I don't remember them.
MR VALLY: Do you recall a criminal case which followed in which Mr John Morgan, Mr Absolom (indistinct) and Mr Isaac Maroho were charged for this incident?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I remember very vaguely.
MR VALLY: Let's just go on to another question. You have mentioned a few times the name Nomzamo, who are you referring to?
MR NTOMBENI: It is Mrs Madikizela-Mandela.
MR VALLY: You also talked about the whole situation regarding complaints being brought to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house. There has been an interview with a Mr Lerothodi Ikaneng, a radio interview.
He stated that people would come to Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's house with various complaints or accusations and these would be reported to the boys at the gates who would report them in the book. Do you have any knowledge of this?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I do have knowledge of that.
MR VALLY: Is it true that these accusations were recorded in a book?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, that is true.
MR VALLY: What would happen thereafter?
MR NTOMBENI: Then we would go out and hunt that person down.
MR VALLY: And what would happen after that?
MR NTOMBENI: If we get those persons or that person, we would bring them back into the yard, and we would start assaulting them and disciplining them.
MR VALLY: Was Mrs Madikizela-Mandela present at these assaults?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, she would be present.
MR VALLY: Would she participate in these assaults?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, she would assault some and she didn't assault others.
MR VALLY: Do you know what Shoes' real name is?
MR VALLY: Do you know the name Ronnie Sikokone?
MR NTOMBENI: No, I don't recall that name.
MR VALLY: You mentioned that you were contacted by Mgojo and that is not the Rev Dr Mgojo, who contacted you after you had been subpoenaed to give evidence here before us. Did you see him at this hearing on any of these previous days?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, he is present.
MR VALLY: Is he present today?
MR VALLY: Can you see him from where you are?
MR NTOMBENI: No, I think he is outside, I can't see his face.
MR VALLY: Let's go on. Regarding the incident of Maxwell Modondo where you stated that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela came by, I believe you said it was in a red Audi, the scene where the body of Maxwell Modondo was. Do you recall your evidence there?
MR VALLY: I want to read to you what Mrs Madikizela-Mandela said about this incident when we asked her about it at the second Section 29 inquiry, page 151. I will read you the questioning as well as the answer.
On this occasion Mr Pigou was asking the questions. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, the transcript into the State versus Ikaneng case, the murder of Maxwell Modondo, one of the State witnesses only named as witness B, says that shortly after the murder of Modondo his body was moved across to the other side of the street by Sibusiso Chili and that when the body had been moved across there, while people was still standing around, he saw you in a vehicle looking at the scene at what was there. This is may I remind you, a State witness against the murderers of Mr Modondo. This sight of you in a vehicle is repeated by Mr Sibusiso Chili who was accused 6 in that case. Were you at all present after the murder of Maxwell Modondo at the scene, did you see his body? Mrs Madikizela-Mandela's response, that is absurd Mr Chairman. I am sure you can spend a lifetime going through the court files, getting all sorts of versions of all sorts of things that was said about me, at all sorts of trials.
Mr Pigou, no but the relevance of this particular viewing of yourself and testimony given under oath by Defence witness and a State witness is that you were there. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela, that is absolute rubbish Mr Chairman. Mr Pigou, thank you. Mrs Madikizela-Mandela goes on, all sorts of versions were given under oath by the apartheid. Mr Pigou, we are talking about this specific case, we are not talking - there are lots of interruptions -and then Mrs Madikizela-Mandela goes on, there is absolutely nothing new in what you are telling me, it is absolute nonsense.
Finally, and I ignore the interventions, Mrs Madikizela-Mandela ends of by saying I was nowhere near that scene, it is the first time I am hearing from you.
So Mrs Madikizela-Mandela very strongly denies that she was on the scene, what is your response to her denial?
MR NTOMBENI: I saw her personally because I was approaching from Lerothodi's place and I identified the car in which she was driving, a red Audi.
MR VALLY: Let's go on. Did you personally witness Tholi, I believe his surname is Dlamini, being shot by Sizwe Sithole?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I was present when Tholi Dlamini was shot by Sizwe Sithole.
MR VALLY: My final question is, have you at any stage made a statement to the police about any of these incidents that you have witnessed and you are giving evidence to us today about?
MR NTOMBENI: No, I never submitted any statement except for Tholi's statement.
MR VALLY: Did you make a statement to the police saying that you were an eyewitness to the murder?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I did submit a statement to that effect.
MR VALLY: Were you ever called by police to give evidence at all in any matter relating to Tholi's death?
MR NTOMBENI: No, I was never called.
MR VALLY: Did you volunteer to make the statement or did police come to you to take a statement from you?
MR NTOMBENI: No, they came to me and they said I should submit a statement, I submitted the statement.
MR VALLY: Did they ever come and talk to you again, after you had made a statement to them?
MR NTOMBENI: No, they never came.
MR VALLY: Do you remember which policeman took a statement from you?
MR NTOMBENI: I do not remember the name of the policeman, but I do remember the face and I can easily identify him, should I see him.
MR VALLY: You didn't happen to see him giving evidence at our hearing in the last week?
MR VALLY: Thank you very much, that is all.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Semenya?
MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, can I ask that my cross-examination of this witness stand a little down, two minutes ago I have just been given a statement? I would like to look at that statement and be able to confront this witness with certain things that appear in that statement.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya, is that the statement by Absolom Dumisani Ddonsela?
MR SEMENYA: That is correct Chairperson.
CHAIRPERSON: Would you like a short adjournment? Let's make it three minutes, you can read fast.
CHAIRPERSON: We have lost 21 of these and they are totally useless outside of this hall. If you want a keepsake or memento, pick some grass or the leaf off a flower, anything you like, but please could we have these back again. Those of you who had taken them by mistake, and please again make sure that when you leave for lunch today, that you leave them on the seat.
It is very expensive to replace, they are useless outside, please make sure you bring them back.
MR SEMENYA: Thank you Chairperson. Sir, do you still have a copy of your subpoena?
MR NTOMBENI: No, I don't have it with me, but it is there at home.
MR SEMENYA: Would you be able to bring it for us tomorrow?
MR SEMENYA: Whose name appears on that subpoena?
MR NTOMBENI: The name is Gift.
MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon?
MR NTOMBENI: The name is Desmond?
MR SEMENYA: No, I am trying to establish whose names appear on the subpoena that was served on you?
MR SEMENYA: I beg your pardon?
MR NTOMBENI: It is my name, but the surname is not mine.
MR SEMENYA: Whose surname is on the subpoena served on you?
MR NTOMBENI: It is Desmond's surname.
MR SEMENYA: Whose address appears on this subpoena served on you?
MR NTOMBENI: There wasn't any address.
MR SEMENYA: How was the subpoena then served on you?
MR SEMENYA: Who served the subpoena on you?
MR NTOMBENI: I think it is TRC official.
MR SEMENYA: It was brought to you by another person working with you?
MR NTOMBENI: It is a TRC official. They came together, it is the two of them in a car, they said they were from the TRC, they had brought this subpoena.
MR SEMENYA: Where did they find you?
MR SEMENYA: So the subpoena was having somebody else's name and your address?
MR NTOMBENI: I did say that there was no address.
MR SEMENYA: But how did these people know where you stay then?
MR NTOMBENI: They were brought by Sponge.
MR SEMENYA: Sibusiso Chili shows them your home with a subpoena that doesn't bear your surname?
MR NTOMBENI: He didn't know that it wasn't my surname, he knew me as Gift because he stayed with me.
MR SEMENYA: Yes, but these people go looking for Gift Desmond? They go to Chili's home, Chili's home takes them to you, how does that happen, do you have an explanation?
MR NTOMBENI: They had gone to deliver Sibusiso and Lerothodi's subpoenas and they had to give the other subpoena to me.
MR SEMENYA: Maybe somewhere we will find how a subpoena gets given to you which does not bear your name and doesn't have your address but the TRC ascent to your home?
I was listening to Mr Unterhalter very carefully. He says he has been requested by the TRC to lead your evidence. Is he the one who took this statement the other day?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, he is the one.
MR SEMENYA: Can I ask Mr Unterhalter to confirm?
MR UNTERHALTER: Mr Chairman, that is not correct. I did not take the statement from the witness, it was taken by an assistant, Mr Aswi Campher, who is an assistant of my instructing attorney.
MR SEMENYA: Why do you say Mr Unterhalter took the statement from you?
MR NTOMBENI: I do not know his name, because I just said it is my Attorney.
MR SEMENYA: Now why do you answer ... (intervention)
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya, the interpreter are telling me that you are not giving the witness enough time. I would be grateful if you take it a little bit slower, thank you.
MR SEMENYA: Why when I ask you whether Mr Unterhalter is the one that took your statement, don't you reply who is Mr Unterhalter?
MR NTOMBENI: I am sorry about that.
MR SEMENYA: Have you been convicted for an offence?
MR SEMENYA: Have you been in prison before?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, three times.
MR SEMENYA: For what were you arrested?
MR NTOMBENI: Whilst I was staying with Mrs Mandela.
MR SEMENYA: Can you give me that answer again?
MR NTOMBENI: I was arrested whilst I was still staying in Mrs Mandela's yard.
MR SEMENYA: My question is why were you arrested, do you know?
MR NTOMBENI: I do not know, whenever they came into the yard, they would rake the yard and they would arrest everybody that was there.
But I have never been charged.
MR SEMENYA: Your statement, somewhere you say when the Dudu's house was bombed, I was in custody with her? Do you recall that?
MR SEMENYA: Why were you in custody during that time?
MR NTOMBENI: I don't remember.
MR SEMENYA: You don't remember why you are in custody at the time that Chili's house was bombed?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, that is what I was saying.
MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, from the examination by Mr Vally, it had occurred to us that they have a statement of the witness that I don't have.
I don't know if in the fullness of time, one can get a copy of that statement, I may be wrong.
CHAIRPERSON: Let me ask Mr Vally. Do you know what statement is being referred to?
MR VALLY: I am not too clear. If Mr Semenya can indicate which aspect of the examination, I can possibly help.
MR SEMENYA: It was at a point Mr Vally was saying had you made a statement to the police.
MR VALLY: I certainly wasn't referring to a statement that I have. It is in line with one of the themes we've had that the police have been recalcitrant about properly investigating certain matters, but I do not have a statement in that regard.
MR SEMENYA: Are you quite close to Lerothodi Ikaneng?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, we are friends.
MR SEMENYA: Would you consider yourselves close friends?
MR SEMENYA: Do you know him to have been involved in any criminal activity?
MR NTOMBENI: Can you repeat please.
MR SEMENYA: Do you know Mr Ikaneng, Lerothodi Ikaneng to have been involved in any criminal activities?
MR SEMENYA: In one of the documents here, he is saying that he used to hijack motor vehicles, do you know that?
MR NTOMBENI: No, we were not hijacking, but we were taking targets.
MR SEMENYA: Both you and Mr Ikaneng were holding targets?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, that is true.
MR SEMENYA: Were you arrested ever for holding targets?
MR SEMENYA: Can you explain to the Commissioners what you mean by holding target?
MR NTOMBENI: At the time there was a slogan make every country a battle field, so that is the slogan that we followed.
MR SEMENYA: Can you say it in simple Zulu, what is it to hold a target? What does that phrase mean?
MR NTOMBENI: We used to wait for delivery vans which were coming into the location, as well as furniture vans, we used to stop these cars and we used to burn them down so that they could not get into the location.
MR SEMENYA: Right. Now, were you burning cars of furniture etc, at the instruction of Mrs Winnie Madikizela-Mandela?
MR NTOMBENI: No, we hadn't known her at that time.
MR SEMENYA: When were you holding targets then?
MR NTOMBENI: It was during 1984, 1985.
MR SEMENYA: And when did you go to join the team?
MR SEMENYA: Really? Can I read you the statement of - I can even put it to you according to the statements I have in 1987, in April or May of 1987, I am told that the Football Club was dissolved after information from Mr Mandela from Cape Town.
MR UNTERHALTER: Mr Chairman, in fairness to the witness, one has to identify whose statement and on what basis the information is offered, one cannot just have it in the air.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you Mr Unterhalter, it was he who was speaking and if you will just go through me next time please. Mr Semenya, could you give us those details.
MR SEMENYA: Can I then refer the witness to a statement we have just recently received of Absolom Dumisani Madosela.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Vally, just before we proceed, could you tell us about this statement, have we heard this witness?
MR VALLY: We have not heard this witness as yet. We will briefly give you the context in which we obtained the statement, because this person is presently serving a sentence in prison.
Can I just add one minor item to that before we go on. We have had extensive evidence from the Mandela Crisis Committee on the whole issue of instructions, regarding the disbanding of the Club by the now President. We have also had extensive evidence regarding the presence of Club members in uniform, accompanied by Mrs Madikizela-Mandela whilst Mr Semenya is free to put to the witness as to when the Club was formed or disbanded, he cannot state it as a fact that the Club was disbanded in 1987, which I suspect he is trying to do.
I can give the microphone to Mr Pigou and he can tell you the circumstances in which we took the statement. Mr Semenya is referring to the statement of Mr Madosela I believe.
MR PIGOU: During the course of the weekend contact was made with myself and Commissioner Ntsebeza and an arrangement was made with the south African Police Service to meet them at Leeukop prison on Sunday. I was present when we interviewed Mr Madosela and he asked and agreed to make a statement which was taken by the SAPS in my presence, and that is the statement which has been furnished to Mr Semenya.
CHAIRPERSON: Thank you. Mr Semenya, I think the objection was really that if you expect a coherent answer from a witness, it may as well to say exactly where it is coming from and ask him if he knows about the situation. Just give a few more details please.
MR SEMENYA: Chairperson, can the witness be shown the statement of Madonsela.
CHAIRPERSON: Arrange that please, thank you. Could you refer to the page please Mr Semenya?
MR SEMENYA: On what appears to be numbered page 5, which is page 2 of the document, under paragraph 7, the following phrase appears, some time in April or May 1987 Mrs Mandela returned from Cape Town after visiting her husband in prison.
She then said that Mr Mandela ordered us to disband the soccer club. I then disbanded the club, I then destroyed the relevant books and documentation. Did you understand that?
MR SEMENYA: According to your information, when in 1987 did you join the Club? When in 1987 did you join the Club?
MR NTOMBENI: I don't remember the month and the date.
CHAIRPERSON: Mr Semenya, can I just refer you to his written statement which is before us and perhaps you want to ask him about that. On page 1 he says I joined the Mandela Football Club in January 1987.
MR SEMENYA: Do you know that part of your statement?
MR NTOMBENI: Yes, I started staying in Mrs Mandela's yard during January. Not that I joined the Club in January, I started staying there during January 1987.
MR SEMENYA: When did you join the Club then?
MR NTOMBENI: When I started staying in the yard.
MR SEMENYA: In your evidence you say that Mrs Madikizela-Mandela ordered an assassin to kill you?
MR SEMENYA: Who is this assassin?
MR SEMENYA: Are you talking about Tobogo that was shot and killed by the police?
MR NTOMBENI: No, he is still alive.
MR NTOMBENI: Tobogo from (indistinct). It was Tobogo, Brasoli, Mpo in Brasoli's house.
MR SEMENYA: Do you have some details about this Tobogo, his last name or something?
MR NTOMBENI: I don't know his surname, but I know where he stays.
MR SEMENYA: Can you give us the address or the neighbourhood where this person stays?
MR NTOMBENI: He stays in Vosloorus.
MR SEMENYA: Were you present when Mrs Mandela is requesting this assassin to kill you?
MR NTOMBENI: I wasn't there. On that day we were in Orlando and it so happened that I had an AK47 with me. I was arrested together with Tobogo and Mangena. And at that time we lost that AK47, they arrested Tobogo, they assaulted them.
After assaulting them, I was released by the police. Brasoli had apparently told Nomzamo that Gift had been arrested together with other youths. Nomzamo came and asked as to which Gift was being referred to, they explained it to her and Tobogo came back to tell me that I am no longer safe, he had been sent to come and kill me and I went to ask Mpo, but Mpo just looked at me and stared at me and she said she knew that Tobogo had been sent to kill me, but she couldn't tell that to me straight.
MR SEMENYA: So, it is the assassin that tells you that I have been sent to come and kill you?
MR SEMENYA: You are saying to us that Sizwe Sithole has a brother called Sinet?
MR NTOMBENI: I don't know how were they related, I don't know how to explain this relationship, whether it was his younger brother, but his name was Sinet, he is now late.
MR SEMENYA: Maybe if you can give me these things in short form I will know what you are saying. Are you saying Sizwe Sithole had a brother whose name was Sinet?
MR NTOMBENI: I could say they were related, because he was staying there at his place.
MR SEMENYA: Can you repeat the answer for me please.
MR NTOMBENI: I could say they are related, because they were staying together and when he saw Sinet's father, he called him father, big father, or small father.
MR SEMENYA: But there is no such person called Sinet on my information, and Sizwe didn't have a cousin or a brother or anybody staying at their house called Sinet? Where do you get this from?
MR NTOMBENI: Sinet has got his own brother by the name of Jabu and Jabu comes after Sinet.
MR SEMENYA: I want to put it to you that there is no such a person existing in the Sithole family.
MR NTOMBENI: I don't know whether you know the Sithole family because there is a Sinet at the Sithole place.
MR SEMENYA: Now, I was listening to you, you were describing how Tholi was shot by Sizwe, is that right?