amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-06-17 UMTATA GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52698&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98061719_umt_dandala.htm CHAIRPERSON Good morning ladies and gentlemen. I want to start by welcoming all of you to these hearings. There are two matters that are set down for hearing for today. The first matter is that of an application by Gcinisiko Lamont Dandala, Mbuso Enock Shabalala, Eugene de Kock which relates to the death of Batandwa Ndondo. The other matter is an Application by Pumalele Gumengu and Aaron Tiani in regard to the murder of Sitembele Zokwe. For the benefit of those who might not be familiar with some of the languages that we will be using, channel 1 is Afrikaans, channel 2 is English and channel 3 is Xhosa. Let me introduce the members of the Committee. On my right we have Advocate Sigodi of the Port Elizabeth Bar and on my left we have Mr J B Sibanyoni, an attorney from Pretoria. I am Sandele Ngcobo, the Judge of the High Court in Cape Town. Would the legal representatives introduce themselves. Shall we perhaps begin with those who are appearing for the Applicants? MR DILIZO Mr Chairman, I am Advocate Dilizo, appearing on behalf of Applicant Gcinisiko Lamont Dandala. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you sir. MR HUGO Mr Chairman, I’m Mr Schalk Hugo, I’m appearing on behalf of the third Applicant, Mr Eugene Alexander de Kock. MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman, my name is Julian Knight. I am appearing on behalf of the second Applicant, Mr Shabalala. MR DUKADA Mr Chairman and all members, I’m N Dukada. I’m instructed by Attorneys ...[inaudible] Incorporated and I’m representing the family of the deceased, Batandwa Ndondo. MR MAPOMA Mr Chairman, I’m Zuko Mapoma, leader of evidence for the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Thank you gentlemen. Mr Mapoma, I understand that the other Application that is related to Sitembele Sokwe is not proceeding, is that right? MR MAPOMA Yes, Chairperson. The legal representative for the Applicants and also the families legal representative are agreed that the matter is not ripe for hearing and I also, Chairperson, from the point of view of the investigation, I am of the view that there are some other areas which need to be investigated in that matter and the matter is not ripe for hearing. CHAIRPERSON Who is appearing for the Applicants in that matter? Sir, would you place your name on Record? MR MALAN Thank you Mr Chairman, my name is Kobus Malan from attorneys Kobus Malan, attorney in Northern. I appear on behalf of both of the Applicants in this regard and I can confirm what Mr Mapoma has informed you. CHAIRPERSON I gather that there is no date that has been set for this matter? MR MAPOMA Yes, the date is yet to be fixed. CHAIRPERSON Very well. The Application for Amnesty by Pumalele Gumengu and Aaron Tiani in respect of the death of Sitembele Zonkwe will therefore be postponed to a date to be arranged. The reason for the postponement is that the investigations relating to that matter have not yet been completed and further investigations still require to be conducted into that matter and for that reason it cannot continue today, thank you. Mr Malan I think you may be excused. We will now proceed with the matter of Dandala and Shabalala and de Kock. Have you gentlemen any request as to who is going to start? MR DILIZO Mr Chairman we have agreed that I’ll be leading the evidence of Mr Dandala first. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. Do you desire to make an opening statement at this stage? For the benefit of the Committee Mr Dukada would you please indicate the basis upon which the victims oppose the Application? MR DUKADA Mr Chairman, honourable members of the Committee, an Affidavit was prepared on behalf of the mother of the late Batandwa Ndondo and certain grounds are set out in the Affidavit for opposing this Application. I will just put briefly the grounds for objecting the Application as follows. Firstly, Mr Chairman, honourable members, the family of the deceased believes that there has been no full disclosure of facts relating to the killing of the deceased. Secondly, the family also believes that the killing was a criminal act, not related to the furtherance or achievement of any political objective by the killers, particularly the Applicant in these proceedings. Thirdly, my instructions are that the killing was an abuse of State authority and a complete misuse of the criminal justice system by the killers of the deceased. And lastly Mr Chairman, the instructions are that even if the killing was a political objective, the killing itself was disproportionate in the circumstances. There were alternative ways of destroying the late Batandwa Ndondo politically than killing him. Those are the grounds for objection. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well thank you. MR DILIZO Mr Chairman I’m leading the evidence of the Applicant Gcinisiko Lamont Dandala. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dandala are you going to speak in English or in Xhosa? MR DANDALA I am going to speak Xhosa. MS SIGODI Please rise. Please give us your full names. MR DANDALA My name is Gcinisiko Lamont Dandala. GCINISIKO LAMONT DANDALA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Dandala you are going to have to speak up very loud, do you understand that? So that people at the back of the hall could hear you. Do you understand that? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, you may proceed. MR DILIZO Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Dandala, are you the First Applicant in this matter? MR DANDALA That’s correct sir. MR DILIZO Having made your founding affidavit in respect of your application? MR DANDALA That’s correct sir. MR DILIZO Which is now forming part of the bundle, starting from Page 6 to Page 16? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR DILIZO Have you read that affidavit and are you aware of it’s contents fully? MR DANDALA Yes, I have read the Affidavit. MR DILIZO Do you also adopt it and that it should be incorporated as your evidence into this bundle before this Committee? MR DANDALA That’s correct sir. MR DILIZO In paragraph 5, that is on Page 7 of the bundle of your Affidavit you stated your background as to when you joined the Police Force, is that correct? MR DANDALA That’s correct sir. MR DILIZO And further on the same Page 7, on paragraph 6 you also indicated that you joined the underground Security Branch and were transferred to Umtata head office? MR DANDALA That’s correct sir. MR DILIZO Briefly, what were the duties of the underground security policemen? Could you please tell this Honourable Court? MR DANDALA The duties of the underground security police was to infiltrate and get information in connection with those groups that we were fighting, the Government of the day. We would pass the information to the superiors so that that particular person would be arrested. MR DILIZO So those duties are also contained on Paragraph 8 on Page 8 of the bundle? MR DANDALA That’s correct sir. MR DILIZO Who was your supervisor in the execution of your duties as an underground security policeman? MR DANDALA It was Colonel Booi. MR DILIZO Do you know the deceased in this matter, that is Batandwa Ndondo? MR DANDALA Yes I know him. MR DILIZO Can you tell the Honourable Mr Chairman and the Honourable members of the Committee how come that you knew him and what happened? MR DANDALA That was when we were in Xala when we went there to arrest him. MR DILIZO That is on the date of his death? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR DILIZO Yes, proceed. MR DANDALA ... [no translation] MR DILIZO Yes, how come that you went to Xala? Who gave you such instructions, if any? MR DANDALA When I went to Xala I was in the Barkly East and I left Barkly East with Moss and Shabalala. When we left there we were to fetch a certain lady from Elliott whose name was Shosha. We left, the four of us, we left for Xala. When we arrived there we started at the security offices with the aim of telling the people that we were around there. And with the aim of getting Batandwa’s whereabouts. We went to Constable Numa who told me that Batandwa was around, he past their offices driving in a Golf and he went to where he was staying in Mr Ntsibeza’s residence. We arrived in Mr Ntsibeza’s place. We parked the kombi, the car that we were driving, the kombi and Braam Moss instructed me to get into the house to call him, that’s Batandwa. Inside the house there was a tall gentleman who was thin, who was sitting in the sitting room. I asked for Batandwa. He said to me he was going to call him because he was still in the bathroom. This gentleman left and he came back and said Batandwa was coming. I left the house, I went back to the kombi. While we were still in the kombi Batandwa came, he came to the kombi. Just before he get into the kombi he pointed at Shosha and said, she was the one whom they were together in the training. CHAIRPERSON Who pointed out to the other person as being the person with whom they trained? MR DANDALA It was Shosha. CHAIRPERSON So as the deceased was approaching the kombi Shosha pointed out to the deceased as being the person with whom she had undergone military training? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR DILIZO So in other words he knew that Batandwa Ndondo was required in connection with training, military training? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DILIZO Proceed. MR DANDALA He got into the kombi when he was inside. In the front seat there was Braam Moss who was a driver, in the passenger’s seat there was Shabalala. Behind them it was myself and he came and occupied the seat behind me and right in the back seat there was Shosha. Braam Moss and the others talked to him and they said to him they asked him to leave with them to discuss a certain matter and Batandwa left with them, with us and the kombi took a direction to the police station. When we were on the way, on the road I saw the kombi turning against the direction of the police station. Mr Braam Moss instructed me to produce my ID to introduce myself as a policeman. I did so. I gave him my ID document and I told him that I was a policeman. MR DILIZO Just a minute, who is this Braam Moss? What can you tell us about him? MR DANDALA Braam Moss was the gentleman who was driving the kombi. MR DILIZO Do you know whether he was a policeman or not? MR DANDALA On the way to Xala I tried to ask if all of us in that kombi were policemen but they said they were not police. They said they were members, they were ex members of the MK and they left the organisation. They were working for the Government but they were not policemen. MR DILIZO Does that also apply to Shabalala and Shosha? MR DANDALA That’s correct. When I told him that I was a policeman I saw him opening the window of the kombi and he jumped out of the window. When he jumped I tried to catch him by his leg but I was not successful. At that time the kombi was about to stop. Shabalala was already out of the kombi and he caught him. When he caught him there was a struggle. He managed to escape. He ran away. And Braam Moss was already out of the kombi from the driver’s seat. They tried to chase him, both of them. While they were still chasing him they started shooting. They went to a certain house. They went behind the house. During that time myself and Shosha were still in the kombi. When they went behind the house they were still shooting. I thought about all the things that they were saying in the kombi while we were still going to that place. I decided to get out of the kombi. MR DILIZO What is it that they told you that you thought of in the kombi? MR DANDALA When I was asking them if they were all policemen they said they were not police but they were trained outside and they said, we went on with the conversation but I realised that in their operations when wherever they were, when they operate they normally get someone who is not a part of that operation and when they finished the operation they will come back and kill that person. That’s the reason that made me to leave the kombi. MR DILIZO Do you mean that you also thought that on their return you might be killed if you did not participate? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR DILIZO Okay, proceed. MR DANDALA I left the kombi. I went to the right hand side. When I was in the yard I saw them coming from another kombi, from another corner that was in front. Shabalala was behind Batandwa and Braam Moss was also behind. They were still firing. I saw Batandwa, he stood still in a rough way. I took off my firearm and I fired one bullet. MR DILIZO Firing where? MR DANDALA I was pointing at him. MR DILIZO Could you please tell the Honourable Chairperson and the Honourable Members what were your intentions of going out of the kombi rushing towards the direction of the deceased? What did you have in mind at that stage? MR DANDALA At that time I was thinking that it might happen, that he ran and disappeared. I was also going to chase him but I saw them coming again from that corner. MR DILIZO So what I want to find out whether by joining them, were your intentions to arrest him or to join them in the shooting of the deceased or what? MR DANDALA I was intending to arrest him. MR DILIZO Okay proceed. MR DUKADA Sorry Mr Chairperson, may I ask you Mr Dandala, I heard you explaining that Batandwa stood in a rough way, it was interpreted as standing in a rough way, what exactly do you mean by that? MR DANDALA It looked like he was choking. MR DILIZO Did you fully come to a complete standstill when you fired a shot at him at that stage? MR DANDALA I shot while he was standing but after that he fell. MR DILIZO Can you tell this Committee, you intended to arrest him or to prevent him from the escape. Now you have suddenly come to a standstill, now you are firing at him already in a standstill, what can you say about that? MR DANDALA About that I had already heard that he was trained, he was a trained soldier. He was a trained ANC soldier. My intention was to catch him, to prevent him from running away because a trained member of the ANC, they were people who were actually fighting the Government of the day. MR DILIZO Yes, proceed. MS SIGODI When you saw him standing still, just before shooting, how far were you approximately from him? MR DANDALA I think it was about 8 metres if I am not mistaken. MR DILIZO Okay, proceed. MR DANDALA When he fell down, Shabalala continued firing. I saw him taking off a magazine that looked like it was finished and then he inserted the second one and he continued firing. He fired and he eventually stopped. I don’t know how many bullets that he fired. After that I said we must take him to the charge office. We did that, we took him into the kombi and we took him to the charge office. We went to Lieutenant Gilele, he said we must rush him to the hospital. We did that. We took him to the hospital. After some time we heard that he died, he later died. We went back to the charge office to Lieutenant Gilele who phoned the head office in Umtata. He reported the matter. We left the charge office. We went to Elliott. We went to the security offices there. There was a white man there. There was a boer who was in the office who shaked our hands because of what happened. MR DILIZO Can you remember who that white man was? MR DANDALA I don’t know his name. MR DILIZO Do you know whether he as a policeman or not? MR DANDALA He was a policeman because he was in the office. MR DILIZO Okay, proceed. MR DANDALA After that he also phoned Umtata head office and General Kawe instructed us to come back to Umtata. We left Elliott and we went to Umtata. We went to the head office where we were instructed to write statements. It was myself and Braam Moss who were making the statements. MR DILIZO And what about Shabalala and Shosha? MR DANDALA Shabalala and Shosha, I didn’t hear them being instructed to make some statements but what I heard is that they said myself and Braam Moss must make statements so that the case could be destroyed. MR DILIZO Which case, the matter of Batandwa Ndondo? MR DANDALA That’s correct sir. MR DILIZO Who said so. MR DANDALA It was General Kawe. MR DILIZO Did he advance any reason why that case should, to use the term destroyed? MR DANDALA He didn’t mention anything except that. MR DILIZO Who were eventually charged in the matter of Batandwa Ndondo? MR DANDALA After some time I was called again by General Kawe. He called me to his office. He said they’ve decided to charge myself and Shabalala, not to charge Braam Moss because Braam Moss was from Ntobo and the people from Ntobo would identify him and kill him. It was myself and Shabalala who were charged from Bizana. MR DILIZO Do you know the district from which Shabalala is coming? MR DANDALA No, I don’t know. MR DILIZO Okay. proceed. MR DANDALA We went to Court, myself and Shabalala. We went there twice. during the third time Shabalala didn’t pitch up. The fourth time he also didn’t pitch up. I went there alone and the case was withdrawn and they said they are going to wait until Shabalala is arrested. MR DILIZO So what is the position now with regard to that case which was withdrawn? Does it still remain withdrawn even up to now? MR DANDALA Yes, it was still withdrawn but I decided to submit an Application for Amnesty. MR DILIZO Mr Dandala, this incident occurred in 1985. Do you still remember the events very well which occurred on that particular day? MR DANDALA I still remember sir. I can still remember. MR DILIZO So what are you therefore applying to this Honourable Court? MR DANDALA Before this Committee, I am applying for amnesty because I admit that we killed Batandwa although I’m not sure whether it was my own bullet that killed him but in the name of reconciliation and nation building I am saying it was a mistake. Therefore I ask for forgiveness. MR DILIZO To whom are you asking for this pardoning? MR DANDALA To the families of Batandwa and the community at large. MR DILIZO So do I understand you clearly to mean that you are not sure whether your own bullet actually hit the deceased but if so, you admit that it might be? MR DANDALA Yes, I’m not sure but I admit that we killed him. MR DILIZO Is there anything else Mr Dandala which you would like to bring to the attention of this Honourable Committee? MR DANDALA I can start from the beginning where I stayed. I was working as an underground security police. As I have already said that in the underground security police we were not allowed to arrest, ours was to gather information and get information about a certain person and pass that information to the head office and the head office would arrest that person but it happened Colonel Booi called me in that underground security police and he send me to the Barkly East. It was on the 23rd September 1985. We left here in the evening and we left in the afternoon and we arrived there during the night. We went to Constable Booyse and we woke up early in the morning preparing ourselves to go to work. In the house where I spent the night, it was myself and Constable Booyse. There was no other person who gave me anything except that he asked Constable Booyse how do things work there and then he said they were still busy patrolling the Transkei. I also want to say that even there I didn’t know the situation that was prevailing at the time. I was not told what kind of job was going to be done. But all I was told was that I was going to assist the South African Police. The police at the time were called, termed terrorist who were appointing some people. I am aware of the fact that after some time there will be a situation like that. MR DILIZO Did you know where Braam Moss, Shabalala and Shosha were coming from, or stationed? MR DANDALA No I didn’t know them. I just saw them for the very first time that day. MR DILIZO Mr Chairman, that is the evidence of the Applicant, Mr Dandala. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DILIZO CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. It has just occurred to me that there are legal representative here who are representing the implicated persons but who have not placed themselves on Record in regard to the individuals on whose behalf they appear. Would the legal representative who represent the implicated persons please place themselves on Record and indicate the person or the individual on whose behalf they appear. MR WESSELS Thank you. May it please Mr Chairman, my name is Wessels, J W Wessels. I am an advocate from the Port Elizabeth Bar. I am representing General Kawe in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wessels. MR MACHOKWENE May it please you Mr Chairman, my name is Advocate Macho, S D Machokwene, from the Transkei Bar. I am representing General Nkalitshana and Colonel Booi in this matter. CHAIRPERSON General who? MR MACHOKWENE General Nkalitshana. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Machokwene. Yes, very well. Mr Knight do you have any questions you want to put to the witness? MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman I do but before I proceed with my cross examination I understand that a copy of the post-mortem was going to be available or is available and I would seek the indulgence of a short adjournment just to peruse the post-mortem before I proceed with cross examination and I do see that it is almost tea time so would it be a convenient time to possibly take an early adjournment? CHAIRPERSON Yes. Is the post-mortem available? MR DUKADA Mr Chairman I am in possession of a copy of the post-mortem report, not the original. Nevertheless I have tried to make copies for my colleagues if they want to peruse it during the adjournment. CHAIRPERSON Do we have enough copies of that report? MR DUKADA Well I’m not sure Mr Chairman, there are many persons who are entitled to it. I have three copies with me. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma do you have a copy? You don’t have a copy of the post-mortem report. MR MAPOMA Mr Chairman I don’t have it with me but we do have a photocopy and we can make copies available. CHAIRPERSON Very well. In view of the fact that we have unfortunately, for inexplicable reasons already lost time, we will rise now and come back at quarter past eleven. Mr Dukada would you please be kind enough to make the necessary copies and make them available to Mr Knight and presumably the other members of the legal representatives so that when we come back at quarter past eleven we can proceed without any further interruptions. Is that the only document that you need Mr. MR KNIGHT Yes it is Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Okay, we will rise then. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Knight have you been furnished with a copy of the post-mortem report? MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman I have been furnished with a copy of the post-mortem report. However during the tea adjournment the legal representatives of the family approached me with a request that they would prefer it if they would be permitted, of course with your consent, to proceed with cross examination and then for myself to follow. I have no objection to that and if that is what they wish I’m happy to oblige. CHAIRPERSON What’s the rationale for that sequence. I mean shouldn’t you, because you’re the next one in line proceed with the cross examination? Is there any specific reason for the departure from. MR MACHOKWENE Mr Chairman I was just asking my colleague if it’s not possible for us to begin first with cross examination but there is no specific rationale or any reason as such if. CHAIRPERSON Mr Knight will you proceed please. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR KNIGHT CHAIRPERSON Mr Dandala, may I remind you that you are still under oath. Yes, Mr Knight? GCINISIKO LAMONI DANDALA (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KNIGHT (cont) Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Dandala, at the time in 1985 what was the situation with the South African Police in the Transkei? Were they permitted to operate within the Transkei? MR DANDALA They had no permission to operate in Transkei. If they so wanted, they had to get permission and get police from Transkei accompanying them. MR KNIGHT And was that the purpose of your involvement? MR DANDALA Yes that was the purpose. Colonel Booi had said that I was supposed to assist them when they came to operate here in Transkei. MR KNIGHT And what would the function be if South African Police were looking for a suspect. What would the procedure normally be to facilitate for that person’s arrest? MR DANDALA Police from Transkei would accompany those from South Africa to go and arrest such a person or the Transkeian Police only would go and arrest that person and hand that person over to South Africa. MR KNIGHT So is it correct to say that the South African Police didn’t have jurisdiction in the Transkei at the time? They would work under the auspices of the Transkeian Police? MR DANDALA Yes, it was okay for them to work in Transkei but they had to be accompanied by those of Transkei. MR KNIGHT Now, when you were in, it was Barkly East, you were then divided into a group with Braam Moss, Mr Shabalala, the woman called Shosha and Mr Shabalala, is that correct? MR DANDALA Yes. MR KNIGHT Thank you, I’m getting to my next question. Can you accurately, you know you said in your evidence in chief that you have a very firm recollection of that day but bearing in mind the years that have past, if Mr Shabalala has a different recollection what transpired, would you be prepared to concede that in certain instances you might have, it might be a possibility that everybody’s memory is failing in the sense that it’s an event that occurred fourteen years ago? MR DANDALA Yes I would concede that a person’s memory is fallible. MR KNIGHT Yes. To proceed to the time when the incident took place, what led you to believe that people like, for instance Mr Shabalala as well as Braam Moss were not in fact police officers? MR DANDALA They themselves told me after I had asked as to whether all of us were policemen. MR KNIGHT Would it surprise you to note that they were in fact police officers? I’m not referring to Shosha but I’m referring specifically to Mr Shabalala and to Captain Braam Moss? MR DANDALA That would surprise me because they told me that they were not policemen. MR KNIGHT And do you recall when the South African Police operated in the Transkei and with your assistance that the vehicles would have false registration numbers? MR DANDALA Yes that did sometimes happen that cars would be driven with false registration numbers. MR KNIGHT What to your mind was the purpose of that? MR DANDALA To prevent identification as police vehicles. MR KNIGHT To keep their operations in the Transkei secret in other words? MR DANDALA Yes. MR KNIGHT Now, returning to the incident that took place, when you went to Xala and approached the, you in your statement said that you went to a police station to find out the whereabouts of the deceased? MR DANDALA To the security offices. MR KNIGHT To the security offices? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON ... [inaudible] firstly to introduce themselves to the security branch there that they were present in the area and also to establish the whereabouts of the deceased. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. From there you went to the deceased’s house where he then came out? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR KNIGHT When he entered into the vehicle, do you have a recollection of having closed the door after he entered and putting the door on a lock so it couldn’t be opened from the inside? MR DANDALA The door was closed by the deceased because he entered while we were sitting inside and he closed the door behind him. He closed the door himself. MR KNIGHT He closed the door himself? Can you accurately remember precisely, apart from the fact that Captain Moss was driving the vehicle but the actual seating of the persons? MR DANDALA Sorry. MR KNIGHT Can you accurately recall where everyone was seated? MR DANDALA Yes. MR KNIGHT Because Mr Shabalala’s recollection is that Shosha was in fact sitting in the front seat? MR DANDALA I can recall clearly. Shabalala was on the passenger’s seat and Braam Moss was driving the kombi. I was seated behind him and Shosha was in the back seat of the kombi. MR KNIGHT Well unfortunately Braam Moss and Shosha are both deceased at this point but Mr Shabalala will say that he has a different recollection of the seating, where everyone was seated. In fact he says that it was Shosha who was sitting in front. With regard to the, just before the deceased attempted to jump out of the window or in fact managed eventually to jump out of the window, your evidence was that this was as a result of yourselves identifying yourselves as a police officer. Did it also have anything to do with the fact that at that time he recognised Shosha? MR DANDALA It could be that point. MR KNIGHT Because Mr Shabalala will say that it was at the time that, on his recollection, it was at the time that Shosha in fact identified herself to the, or not identified herself but was recognised by the deceased that he then suddenly realised that there was something wrong and he started to shiver. Do you recall, do you have a recollection of him shivering in the car or shaking with nervousness? MR DANDALA No. Because he was just behind me. MR KNIGHT He was behind you? MR DANDALA Yes. I didn’t see any shivering. MR KNIGHT Did you have your eyes on him at the time? MR DANDALA No, my eyes were not at him. At that time. MR KNIGHT And then he jumped out of the window? MR DANDALA Yes. MR KNIGHT What happened then? Who grabbed him by the legs? MR DANDALA Yes. MR KNIGHT Who grabbed him? MR DANDALA Sorry? MR KNIGHT Who grabbed the deceased by the legs? MR DANDALA Myself. I grabbed him by the leg. MR KNIGHT And Mr Shabalala as well? MR DANDALA Mr Shabalala was inside the kombi at that time but he managed to jump out of the kombi very fast and grabbed him outside the kombi. MR KNIGHT Who grabbed him? MR DANDALA Shabalala. CHAIRPERSON Shabalala only grabbed the deceased once the deceased was outside of the kombi? MR DANDALA Outside of the kombi, yes. MR KNIGHT Mr Shabalala has a different recollection of that and that is basically that there was no struggle with him after he had got out of the vehicle for the simple reason that the vehicle was still moving at the time that he managed to alight from the vehicle exiting through the window and by the time the vehicle had stopped he, the deceased was running away from the vehicle and Mr Shabalala will further state that he had to open the sliding door from the outside and it was at that stage that he joined Captain Moss in the pursuit of the deceased and Captain Moss had already started shooting. What is your comment on that? MR DANDALA Maybe his memory is not good. Because it was just as I’m saying. MR KNIGHT Well could you describe if Mr Shabalala had a struggle with the deceased, how was it that the deceased managed to escape? MR DANDALA They struggled, I don’t know, how can I put it, because Shabalala was, grabbed him then Batandwa tried to free himself from him and he managed to free himself and ran away. MR KNIGHT And who then commenced shooting? MR DANDALA Sorry? MR KNIGHT Who commenced the shooting? Who was the first person to start shooting? MR DANDALA It was Shabalala. MR KNIGHT And Captain Moss? MR DANDALA And Braam Moss. MR KNIGHT And where was Moss at this stage? MR DANDALA They were chasing him. MR KNIGHT Because do you remember what Braam Moss looked like? MR DANDALA Yes, he was a hefty man. MR KNIGHT He couldn’t run very fast? MR DANDALA He couldn’t run very fast but it was a short distance. MR KNIGHT Because Mr Shabalala will further state that when he alighted, managed to get out of the vehicle that it was Captain Moss who had alighted first, had managed to get out first and had commenced shooting and it was only he that started shooting at a later stage. MR DANDALA The man who came out first was Shabalala. Braam Moss came out later and as I have said that, they ran around the house and then when they came around the front corner, Braam Moss were at the back. MR KNIGHT Now with regard to the shooting, Mr Shabalala will also say that when he commenced firing he was standing just to the side of the vehicle that he had alighted from and that you were at that stage standing to his side and that as he commenced firing, his recollection was that he could hear you firing as well? MR DANDALA I can recall clearly that I was inside the kombi at that time. MR KNIGHT Now when the deceased fell, your evidence in chief as I understand it was that Mr Shabalala in fact re-loaded after having, well used up all of the rounds of ammunition in his one magazine, then re-loaded and started shooting again? MR DANDALA Yes. MR KNIGHT Now Mr Shabalala disputes this. He says that he didn’t have a spare magazine. What is your comment on that? MR DANDALA I saw him taking off the first one and putting in the second one. MR KNIGHT How many shots would you say were shot in total? MR DANDALA By whom? MR KNIGHT Well, in total by all of the people shooting at the deceased. MR DANDALA By each and every one? MR KNIGHT Yes, the total amount of shots fired in the incident? MR DANDALA No, I don’t know the number. MR KNIGHT If you think about, you said that he then re-loaded his weapon and then at a very short distance or range, shot off a second magazine, was that your evidence? MR DANDALA Yes. MR KNIGHT Now, how many bullets would be in a magazine? MR DANDALA In magazine, hence it was a 9mm? There should be fifteen rounds in a magazine. MR KNIGHT Fifteen rounds? MR DANDALA Yes. MR KNIGHT Now, at close range, one would imagine that fifteen rounds would hit their target? MR DANDALA I don’t know how many. CHAIRPERSON But wait a minute. But doesn’t that depend on how many bullets were in the magazine at the time when it was fired? MR KNIGHT Yes, I agree with you Mr Chairman. The reason why I’m mentioning this is, if one has regard to the post-mortem report, it reflects a total of eight bullets having been, the deceased having had eight bullet wounds and although one doesn’t know how many bullets were in the magazines or the one magazine that the accused, one of the accused, that Mr Shabalala had, that it would appear inconsistent that he would only be wounded eight times with regard to the evidence that you are giving of the amount of rounds that must have been shot into him. MR DANDALA As they were running, shooting, running, maybe they missed him with the first shots. As they were running. But I don’t know. MR KNIGHT Yes. CHAIRPERSON What is the state of this post-mortem report. Is it being handed in as an exhibit, what is the position? MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman, not by the Applicant. I would imagine that the exhibit will be entered in to evidence by my colleague who is appearing for the family. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dukada, is it intended to hand in this post-mortem report? MR DUKADA That is correct Mr Chairman, we intend to hand in the report when we are cross examining the witness or leading the evidence from the family. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Is there any reason why it shouldn’t be handed in at this stage? Is there any objection to this report? MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman I have no objection from my side. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hugo? MR HUGO I have no objection, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No objection sir. CHAIRPERSON To the extent that Mr Wessels and Mr Machokwene you may have a say in the matter. Do you have any objection to this? MR MACHOKWENE No. MR WESSELS No objection. CHAIRPERSON Yes. I see you have seen it, have you? Yes very well. The post-mortem report which is Xala CR 92/9/85 will therefore be handed in by consent as Exhibit "A". Yes thank you Mr Knight, you may continue. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Dandala, what led you to believe that had you not participated, that you might have been killed by the Vlakplaas contingent? MR DANDALA It was heard by the people I was going with that if someone doesn’t participate in what is being done, they would come back and deal with him or kill him. MR KNIGHT Did they specifically, what I’m trying to establish is whether this was your perception of what might or might not have been said or whether it was actually said to you? MR DANDALA It was said by them. MR KNIGHT That they would come and kill you if you didn’t assist? That they would kill you? MR DANDALA Not myself. The person with whom I operating, I mean with whom I’m doing that operation. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dandala what Mr Knight is endeavouring to find out is, did any one of the individuals in the kombi say to you, if you do not take part in this operation, they will come back and kill you? MR DANDALA There was no specific person who said to me they would come back and kill me. It was through conversation in the kombi. MR KNIGHT So it was just your perception because Mr Shabalala will say that he has no recollection of any conversation along those lines at that time. He doesn’t dispute that there might have been a chat along the way about general operations but his feeling is that being a co-operative unit there would never have been the necessity or any, it would never have come into their mind to make any threats of this nature against a fellow policeman. CHAIRPERSON In his evidence there is no suggestion that there were any direct facts, you know, at him, but it emerged in their description of how they operate that if a person does not participate in an operation, they usually come back and kill the person. And presumably from that he assumed that if he does not participate in this operation, they may well come back and kill him. That’s how I understand his. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. I won’t take the matter further. Mr Chairman if you would just bear with me, I’m almost finished. MS SIGODI I just want to ask a question from the Applicant. When this was said, if you don’t participate in an operation then they would come back and kill the person, when was this said? Was it said before you went to collect the deceased or was it said, at what stage was it said? MR DANDALA It was on the way to Xala. MS SIGODI Before? MR DANDALA Before we reached Xala. MS SIGODI And in what context, what specific operation were they referring to? MR DANDALA I don’t know but it was just a conversation, specifically there was no operation that were. MS SIGODI There was no operation that you had in mind at that time? MR DANDALA Yes. MS SIGODI You did not know, did you know that Batandwa was going to be killed or did you not know? MR DANDALA No, I did not know. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Knight. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. I have no further questions. NO FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR KNIGHT CHAIRPERSON Mr Hugo? MR HUGO Thank you Mr Chairman, I just have a few questions. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO MR HUGO Mr Dandala you, are you still a member of the South African Police? MR DANDALA Yes, that’s correct. MR HUGO So no steps have been taken against you since this incident? Disciplinary steps? MR DANDALA No there were no disciplinary steps. MR HUGO And where are you at present stationed? MR DANDALA At Umzimkulu. MR HUGO Which is where? Is it still part of the Transkei, sorry. MR DANDALA Yes, part of Transkei. CHAIRPERSON Where are you stationed? MR DANDALA Umzimkulu. CHAIRPERSON Would you just speak up Mr Dandala if you don’t mind? MR DANDALA Yes. Okay, thank you. I’m stationed at Umzimkulu. MR HUGO And Mr Dandala what is your present rank in the South African Police? MR DANDALA I am an Inspector. MR HUGO So you have been promoted fairly rapidly since that particular incident, is that correct? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR HUGO Would you say this was in the normal course of events or do you think it actually happened quicker than what normally is the case? If you understand what I’m trying to get at? MR DANDALA No I don’t understand. MR HUGO Well, let me put it rather bluntly. Were you rewarded in the sense that you got promoted to you present position or was there nothing untoward about your promotion? MR DANDALA No, I was not rewarded. It was as normal promotion. MR HUGO I see in your affidavit that you joined the police in 1982. Sorry Mr Chairman there’s a bit of a problem, it’s fine. In 1982 you underwent your initial training at the Umtata Police College for a period of six months, is that correct? MR DANDALA Yes that’s correct. MR HUGO And then you were at Mount Frere Police Station in the uniform branch, is that also correct? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR HUGO You were then recruited to become a member of the security branch whilst you were there at Mount Frere. MR DANDALA At Mount Frere, yes. MR HUGO Now by whom were you recruited? MR DANDALA I don’t know. To the security branch, I don’t know. MR HUGO What was your understanding as to what your functions would be when you were recruited from the uniform branch to become a member of the security branch? MR DANDALA I knew that I’m going to trace, I’m going to look for people who are doing subversive activities against the Government. MR DANDALA What was your understanding as to what subversive activities would entail? MR DANDALA By that time it was terrorism. MR HUGO Well terrorism in what sense, who were the terrorists? MR DANDALA The people who went abroad and have trainings in some other countries. MR HUGO Was it ever mooted to you that they should be or should deem to be members of a freedom organisation like the ANC or the PAC? MR DANDALA Yes, those people. MR HUGO That was your understanding? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO And you were to work on members of the ANC and PAC that went abroad for training? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO Right. Now I’ve seen your affidavit. You then go further and you’ve said that you were then once more recruited to become a member of the underground security branch which I take is a different section of the security police, is that correct? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR HUGO Now what is the difference between the security, the normal security police and the so-called underground security police? MR DANDALA The difference is this. In underground security we were to gather information and bring it to the head of this. And to spot these trained people so that they can be arrested. In that effecting of arrest we should not be there. We should act as if we are not policemen. MR HUGO And did you, as an underground security policeman, did you not carry with you any police identity documents I take it? MR DANDALA We had identity documents. MR HUGO But you were not supposed to indicate to the people that you were investigating, that you are from the underground security? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO Now, can you just give us an indication of the rank structure that was in place at the time? Who was your officer commanding in the underground security branch at the time? MR DANDALA It was Colonel Booi. MR HUGO And how many of you belonged to this particular underground security branch? MR DANDALA We were five. MR HUGO So this whole section just consisted of five of you and I take it then Colonel Booi was the Commander, is that correct? Six in total? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR HUGO And who were the other ones that were part of this particular cell or unit, the other names? MR DANDALA It was Bongani Wana. MR HUGO Yes. MR DANDALA Nombanga. MR HUGO Yes. MR DANDALA Bogela, Ngalani. MR HUGO And Colonel Booi, was he a Colonel at the time? MR DANDALA He was not a Colonel at the time, he was a captain. MR HUGO And to whom did he in turn report? MR DANDALA Colonel Booi? MR HUGO Yes. MR DANDALA To the head of the security. MR HUGO And who was the head of the security at the time? MR DANDALA It was General Kawe. MR HUGO But was there not somebody else that he had to report to in between the General and himself? MR DANDALA I mean ourselves? MR HUGO No no, Colonel Booi, was there not a higher rank than him before he got to the General, that he had to report to? Or did he report straight to the General? MR DANDALA Straight to the General, yes. MR HUGO And was the General aware of the activities of this so-called underground security branch and what it entailed? MR DANDALA He was aware. MR HUGO Was the General also to your knowledge aware of the fact that you the members of the underground security branch was working and co-operating closely with the South African Police at the time? MR DANDALA No, because we were working in Transkei only. MR HUGO No no. The question is, was the General the head of the security branch, was he aware of the fact that you as Transkeian policemen were co-operating, helping and assisting South African policemen to operate in Transkei? MR DANDALA I don’t know whether he was aware or not. But I was taken by Colonel Booi who was the head of it at that time. MR HUGO Well, was Colonel Booi aware of the fact that you are co-operating with the South African police whilst they were operating in Transkei? MR DANDALA He was aware. MR HUGO And what were his instructions to you in respect of the co-operation and the assistance that were to be given to the South African Police? MR DANDALA He gave me instructions to go and assist South African Police only. MR HUGO But assist in what way? MR DANDALA In tracing the trained terrorists. MR HUGO And did you yourself do any research on the so-called terrorist in the sense that you, did you have a name and a list of suspects etc., during your investigations in the Transkei? MR DANDALA I had no list of the persons. MR HUGO Did you ever, before this particular incident, come to know the name of the deceased Mr Ndondo? MR DANDALA I knew about him on that particular day. MR HUGO For the first time? MR DANDALA For the first time? MR HUGO So is it then fair to say that as far as you are concerned working on so-called terrorists that Mr Ndondo wasn’t a high profile activist or a member of the ANC or the PAC and that you haven’t heard of him before this particular incident occurred? MR DANDALA I had no knowledge about him. MR HUGO And you had no knowledge of the fact that he was a member of the Student Representative Council at the Umtata University at the time or just in 1984? MR DANDALA No I had no knowledge. MR HUGO And you similarly had no knowledge of him having been expelled for political activities in 1985 from the university? MR DANDALA No I don’t know. I mean I had no knowledge about that. MR HUGO Can you just, whilst we’re busy with that, go back to the bundle of documents, it’s Page 2. It says there, summary of substantial facts and then Paragraph 5, this is now after the incident, In a public speech subsequently, the then Transkei State President K T Matanzima gave political justification of the murder claiming that the deceased was killed because of his involvement in a bombing incident in Umtata previously. You see that? MR DANDALA Yes I see it. MR HUGO Now, can you recall this particular public speech that was given by the former President? MR DANDALA Yes I recall this, the speech. MR HUGO And you see that he refers to a bombing incident in Umtata previously, was that true, to the best of your knowledge? MR DANDALA As I heard it from the radio. MR HUGO I beg your pardon, you only heard this speech on the radio? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO No but did you have personal knowledge in your work as a member of the underground security force that this particular, that the deceased Mr Ndondo was involved in this bombing incident? MR DANDALA No, I had no knowledge about bombing. MR HUGO So this, the knowledge of this bombing incident certainly did not or was not conveyed by your section to the then President? MR DANDALA No. MR HUGO Then I want you to just go to Page 17 of the same bundle. Have you got it in front of you? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO Do you recognise this document? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO Now can you just identify it for us please? MR DANDALA Sorry. MR HUGO Can you just identify this document for us. Just tell us what this is about? MR DANDALA It was the statement made by me on the 24th of 9, 1985. MR HUGO To whom did or in whose presence did you make this statement? MR DANDALA In the presence of Braam Moss. MR HUGO But who was the author of this statement? Who drew it up and who arranged for this statement to be typed? MR DANDALA I don’t know but I could say it was the superiors, but I don’t know exactly who organised it to be typed. MR HUGO You see Mr Dandala with all due respect, I think this document is of very great importance. Try and recall the matters in a little bit, in a more detailed fashion. When was this document drawn up? MR DANDALA It was after the incident. MR HUGO Well, let me try and help you. On Page 18, right at the bottom, Page 18, it says there, Umtata and then 13/11/1985. Does that sound right to you? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO Do you think that is more or less the date when this document was drawn up? MR DANDALA Yes, it could be. MR HUGO And it was signed by yourself I see at the bottom of the page, is that your signature? MR DANDALA Yes, it’s my signature. MR HUGO So you were happy with the contents of this document? MR DANDALA At that time I was happy because some other people, they were trying to assist me in making this statement. MR HUGO Yes, well that was what I wanted to know, Mr Dandala. Who are these people that were trying to assist you to make this Affidavit? MR DANDALA I cannot recall because in the assistance that they were giving is that I mustn’t disclose everything so as to destroy Shabalala because this is going to be heard at the Court. Now they were telling me that if I can disclose everything maybe these people I was going with could come and also kill me because I’m destroying them. MR HUGO Yes, I understand that Mr Dandala. We all know that we were then living in terrible times and dreadful things happened. What I’m after is, you have to make a proper and a full disclosure to enable you to qualify for amnesty, you understand that, is that not so? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO Now we have a situation on your own version where you say that people were trying to assist you. Now we want to know who are these people that were trying to assist you at the time? So that we can ask them questions as to why they did this. Who were they? MR DANDALA They were like Constable Booyse, they also tried to assist me. MR HUGO Yes, that’s now one name. Who else? MR DANDALA I cannot recall others because there were many there in the office. MR HUGO Yes? MR DANDALA One ... [inaudible] sometimes come to me and say, hey this thing which happened, but I don’t like it and I don’t like it to say at Court that Shabalala shot so many rounds. You must just say Shabalala, I mean after I have shot a shot Shabalala stopped firing, things like that. MR HUGO Yes, but who are the people that were advising you to do these things? Not to reveal the whole truth. Over and above Constable Booyse now, who else? MR DANDALA If I can recall clearly, Sergeant Ncabani was there. MR HUGO Yes. Is he also a member of the deep security unit? MR DANDALA No no. He was a member and the head of this. MR HUGO And is he still in the South African Police? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO What is his rank at present? MR DANDALA Captain. MR HUGO Who else? MR DANDALA ... [inaudible], Mdotana. MR HUGO Yes. And he’s still in the South African Police? MR DANDALA I’m not sure. CHAIRPERSON What is the name of the gentleman? Could you just repeat the name for me please? The name. MR DANDALA Mdotana. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR HUGO Any other names that you can remember? MR DANDALA I don’t recall others. MR HUGO Well let’s just go through the names that were part of your secret unit. Bongani Wana, was he one that assisted you with this? MR DANDALA No, he didn’t assist me with this. MR HUGO Nombanga, also known as black cat. Did he assist you? MR DANDALA No. MR HUGO Pugela? MR DANDALA No. MR HUGO Nkalane? MR DANDALA No. MR HUGO And Colonel Booi? MR DANDALA Yes, Colonel Booi assisted me. MR HUGO Yes, with this particular statement? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO Which was not a correct statement, is that correct? You agree now, with hindsight, it’s not correct? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO And is it true to say that this particular statement was drawn up to conceal the correct facts? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO And where is Colonel Booi at present? MR DANDALA He is a pensioner. MR HUGO And the General, I’m sorry I can’t pronounce the name properly, Kawe? MR DANDALA Yes. He is also a pensioner. MR HUGO Yes, did he assist you with this? MR DANDALA No, he didn’t assist me. MR HUGO And to the best of your knowledge was he aware of this cover up? Of this cover up, in the sense that you were making a statement containing facts that were not true or at the very best, half truths? MR DANDALA Maybe he had a knowledge about it. MR HUGO Why are you saying that? MR DANDALA Because firstly he said, the statements should be made by me, myself and Braam Moss. Secondly he said people who are going to be charged, it’s myself and Shabalala. MR HUGO Yes. And you deduced from that that he knew about this cover up and he was part and parcel of this cover up? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO Mr Dandala, how many other operations were you involved in with members of the South African Police in the Transkei? MR DANDALA It was this one only. MR HUGO This was the first one and the last one? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO When you appeared in the Supreme Court in Umtata for the first time, can you remember that? MR DANDALA I don’t remember the date. MR HUGO No no, not the date but the incident, the fact that you, can you recall your first appearance in Court? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO With whom did you appear in Court as your co-accused? MR DANDALA With Shabalala. MR HUGO Mr Shabalala? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO Were there at the Court during your appearance, were there any other South African policemen present when you were in Court? MR DANDALA No, there were no other policemen from South Africa. MR HUGO Do you know Mr de Kock? MR DANDALA No, I don’t know him. MR HUGO Was he present at Court during the first appearance? CHAIRPERSON Did he say he knows him? MR DANDALA I don’t know him. MR HUGO No. So you wouldn’t be able to tell us whether he was there? MR DANDALA Yes, I couldn’t be able. MR HUGO Had he been there you would have recognised him though? Today you would have? MR DANDALA No. When? MR HUGO Had he been there the first time? MR DANDALA Yes. MR HUGO Then you would be able to tell us that he was there though? MR DANDALA I cannot be able. MR HUGO I have no further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Dukada? CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Dandala what are the reasons for you to apply for amnesty in this Committee? MR DANDALA The reason that I killed Batandwa because I had already heard by the members I was going with that he is a trained terrorist and for the fact that he was running away then I was trying to stop him from escaping and for the security of the then Government. MR DUKADA Those are the reasons for you to apply for amnesty in the Committee? MR DANDALA Yes, that I have killed him. MR DUKADA Let me just go through the, you have made a number of statements over this incident, is that correct? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA More than four statements? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Now in the statement you made immediately after the killing of the deceased, can you turn to Page 18 of the bundle. On Page 18 of the bundle, the very last paragraph, you say that you killed the deceased because he was attempting to escape from local custody, do you remember that? MR DANDALA Yes, I can see it. MR DUKADA And in this statement you never mentioned at all that you were threatened by askaris to partake in the killing. Do you agree with me? MR DANDALA If you can go through it? MR DUKADA Yes I can give you time to go through it, you never mentioned at all that you were threatened by askaris to participate in the killing. MR DANDALA Yes, there is nothing. MR DUKADA Yes, why did you not mention that? CHAIRPERSON Why did he not mention what? That he was threatened by? MS SIGODI Askaris. MR DUKADA Mr Chairman the witness in his evidence in chief mentioned that the reason why he participated in the killing of the deceased was because the askaris had earlier threatened him that if anybody does not co-operate in their mission they kill that person. The question I’m asking to the witness is why did he not mention. CHAIRPERSON I think more accurately would be the witness that in the conversation it emerged that the askaris kill a person who does not participate in the operation and that he was of the view that they may well do that to him as well. Do you understand the question sir? MR DANDALA Yes I understand the question? CHAIRPERSON Yes. What is your answer? MR DANDALA Maybe in my memory then I didn’t recall it. MR DUKADA But this was an earlier statement. You made this statement on the 13th November 1985 and the one you are relying on today for the amnesty, you made it only on the 4th June 1998. MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Why do you now recall only on the 4th June 1998 that you were coerced by askaris to kill Ndondo, yet on the 13th November 1985, three months after the killing you don’t mention that in the statement? MR DANDALA As I have said earlier that some members were trying to assist me in telling me that I mustn’t disclose everything by then so as to destroy my co-accused at Court. MR DUKADA In other words in this statement dated 13th November 1985 you deliberately omitted to mention askaris? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA In order to protect Shabalala? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Can you look at Page. CHAIRPERSON I thought you told us earlier on that the reason why you didn’t mention that in your statement was that it didn’t come to your mind, at the time of making of the statement? MR DANDALA I said maybe in my memory then, it didn’t come into my mind but now I do recall that in some cases they were telling me that I mustn’t destroy them. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand that but I think what I want to know is, did you not mention this fact in the statement because it didn’t occur to you at the time of the making of the statement or did you not mention it because you were told by the individuals that you had mentioned here not to disclose it? MR DANDALA Yes. After I have told by the individuals so I didn’t mention it. CHAIRPERSON You did mention it? MR DANDALA I didn’t. CHAIRPERSON You did not mention it because you were told not to mention it? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. At Page 15 of the fresh Affidavit you deposed on the 4th June 1998, particularly at Paragraph 38. I will read the paragraph for you so that you are able to understand the next question I shall be putting to you. There you say, "The oppression which resulted in the killing of Batandwa was done at the instance and in the interest of the Government of the then Republic of Transkei and I was acting in the course and scope of my employment of the Department of Police of the said Government." Then it goes further, you say, "The Government of the day was fully appreciative of the operation." Do you get that? MR DANDALA Yes I get it. MR DUKADA Is this one of the reasons you are applying for amnesty in this Committee? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And then at Page 15, if you move backwards, at Paragraph 36, the very last sentence, you say, "It was only by mistake that Batandwa was killed in the operation since I only intended to arrest him and not to kill him." Do you get that? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Ja, go back Mr Dandala, you mentioned that firstly he was escaping from local custody. Secondly, you were threatened by askaris to partake in the killing. Thirdly, the killing was sanctioned by your Department and the Government of the day was fully appreciative of the operation. And fourthly, you killed Batandwa by mistake. What I want to find out from you, precisely what is the reason for you to apply for amnesty in the Committee? MR DANDALA That I have killed Batandwa. MR DUKADA ...[inaudible] the reason? MR DANDALA That is the reason, that I have killed him. MR DUKADA No no sir. I have set out different versions which come from the documents which you signed, statements. Can I come again? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Well Mr Dukada I’m not too sure whether you can take this matter any further because the witness does say that he’s applying for amnesty because he killed the deceased. That’s the upshot of his answer. MR DUKADA Mr Chairman I just want to find out from the witness the motive for killing the deceased. Everybody, with respect, knows that the deceased Batandwa died but I just want to find out the ...[inaudible] motive, if there was any motive for the killing. Mr Dandala I’ve set out all these versions you mentioned from the various documents but what I want to find out from you, what was the reason if you can just move from the question of amnesty. What was the reason for you to kill the deceased? MR DANDALA Firstly I said, since I have already heard that he is a trained terrorist and secondly that I was acting on security of the state and thirdly that he was running away, escaping. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR DUKADA Now, let’s go back to the underground security branch. You were initially a member of the security branch in the Transkeian Police Force. Is that correct? MR DANDALA Yes, that is correct. MR DUKADA And thereafter you joined the underground unit within the Department of Police in Transkei? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Now what was the purpose of the security branch? MR DANDALA The purpose of? MR DUKADA The security branch in Transkei. MR DANDALA Security branch? MR DUKADA Yes. MR DANDALA It was to safeguard the country against terrorism. MR DUKADA And then the unit, the underground unit? MR DANDALA No, the security branch. The underground unit, it had also those duties but doing them in a way that they can’t, they cannot be identified as policemen. But the duties were the same. That we had to safeguard the country. MR DUKADA What was the point of duplicating functions Mr Dandala? If there was a security branch to look after so-called terrorists, why was there a need for an underground unit? MR DANDALA Could you please come again? MR DUKADA Was not a duplication of functions, if there was a security branch to combat terrorism then why did, what was the reason for establishing the underground unit? MR DANDALA It was for infiltration. MR DUKADA That could have been done easily by any member of the security branch then? MR DANDALA Yes, that could be done by any member but it so happened that there was this underground security. MR DUKADA Yes, but you must know Mr Dandala why the unit was established. I want to find out from you the reasons for the formation of this unit? MR DANDALA I don’t know the reasons for the formation of this unit. MR DUKADA And when was it formed? MR DANDALA I don’t know. I mean we were the first people on this underground security. I’m sure it was formed early 1985. MR DUKADA Was it a formal unit in the sense in that it was in the books of the Department of Police or it was a clandestine unit, not known by other members of the Police Force? MR DANDALA Yes, it was in clandestine movement. CHAIRPERSON Was it known to other members of the security branch? MR DANDALA Other members of the security branch didn’t know about this branch. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. And what operations did you conduct before this incident as a member of the underground unit? MR DANDALA There were no operations. MR DUKADA Do you understand that the first functioning of this underground unit was when Ndondo was killed on the 24th September 1985? MR DANDALA Sorry, could you please come again? MR DUKADA Do I understand from you, if I’m correct, that the first functioning of this unit was when Ndondo was killed on the 24th September 1985? MR DANDALA It was not the function of this unit. MR DUKADA But I’m talking about the operation of the unit Mr Dandala. CHAIRPERSON What he is asking you is this, the incident relating to the death of the deceased was this the first operation in which your unit got involved? Is that the question? MR DUKADA That is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Do you understand the question? MR DANDALA I understand the question. But I don’t think those were the duties of that unit. That operation could have been done by each and every policeman, a member of the police. MR DUKADA No but what I’m going to find out before I move to this, Mr Dandala, what other operations were conducted by this unit before the killing of Batandwa? MR DANDALA Okay, let me express it like this. In this unit we were not supposed to arrest in this unit. We were supposed to gather information only and bring it to the head office. If we have spotted somebody, we bring that information to the head office so that he can be arrested by other members, not by the members of this unit. MR DUKADA Mr Dandala, can you tell this Committee what information did you gather in Transkei prior to the killing of Ndondo? MR DANDALA No there was no information gathered prior to the killing of Batandwa. MR DUKADA In other words are you saying that as a unit you had done nothing until the day Ndondo was killed? MR DANDALA I could say so because really there was no information about him. MR DUKADA In other words all your files were empty as a unit before the killing of Ndondo? MR DANDALA Could you please come again? MR DUKADA You had done absolutely nothing as a unit in terms of gathering information about terrorism in Transkei until Ndondo was killed on the 24th September? MR DANDALA No, there were some informations, but not relating to this one of Batandwa. MR DUKADA That’s the information I need Mr Dandala. MR DANDALA No there was no information about him. MR DUKADA No no what I’m saying, the information I need. What information did you gather about terrorism in Transkei before the death of Ndondo? MR DANDALA I cannot recall but there were some reports that were made by our unit. MR DUKADA Which reports? MR DANDALA I cannot recall. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that prior to the death of the deceased, your unit had been gathering information on other activities not relating to the deceased? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON I think what Counsel wants to know is what are those activities? What information did you gather relating to other activities? MR DANDALA That there is a person somewhere, a trained person somewhere but I cannot recall clearly the reports that were made but there were some reports that were made by this unit. But I cannot recall the exact ... [inaudible]. CHAIRPERSON So is the position that you had information that there were people trained, there was a person who had been trained somewhere? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON But you had no idea who this individual was and where he was at the time? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Were you responsible for gathering that information or did somebody else gather that information? MR DANDALA No, I was not responsible because as we were five, so I was not responsible by myself in that information. CHAIRPERSON But you personally, had you gathered any information? MR DANDALA No. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. In other words Mr Dandala, right where you are seated now, you are not in a position to tell this Committee at all which people in Transkei were recorded in your books as being involved in terrorist activities? MR DANDALA There were some that I knew. People like Sisa Ngombane. MR DUKADA Yes. MR DANDALA People like Mr Mquegeza. MR DUKADA Yes. MR DANDALA People like, others, I have forgotten their names. MR DUKADA Yes, and what was this information for now. If you get the information about certain people what would happen? MR DANDALA Sorry? MR DUKADA What would you do with that information, say you get the name of Sisa Mbongane, what would you do about him? MR DANDALA I would take the information to the head office. MR DUKADA So that arrest could be made? MR DANDALA So that he could be arrested later. MR DUKADA You know the police in parts of South Africa at that time had their own unit or units dealing with terrorism, is that correct? MR DANDALA I don’t know but as there were these people I was going with, that could be possible. MR DUKADA And surely Mr Dandala your underground. CHAIRPERSON That could be possible, are you saying that it’s possible that the South African Police had it’s own security branch members who were dealing with these matters? You don’t know about that? MR DANDALA That there were some units? CHAIRPERSON Similar to your unit? The underground unit? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Oh, I see. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. And surely your underground unit was working hand in hand with any relevant unit existing in the Republic of South Africa? MR DANDALA Otherwise in Transkei we were just working around Transkei, not in South Africa. But I cannot say we were working hand in hand with the South African police members. MR DUKADA Why, because. MR DANDALA Because. MR DUKADA Sorry, do you want to finish? MR DANDALA Because we were working in Transkei only. MR DUKADA Yes but surely your underground unit must have had dealings with any relevant body dealing with terrorism in South Africa? MR DANDALA No. MR DUKADA Are you saying that, sorry? MR DANDALA Because as we were working in Transkei we were not in a position to know everything in South Africa. MR DUKADA Even a matter relating to the security of the State? MR DANDALA As we were working around Transkei really we didn’t know what was happening in South Africa. MR DUKADA So your evidence that the underground unit had no dealings with what was happening in South Africa? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And no member of, sorry, no member of the South African Police was working with this unit? MR DANDALA No. MR DUKADA Now in your evidence you mention that the South African Police were operating in Transkei with full knowledge of authorities in Transkei? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And surely there were meetings between members of the security branch in South Africa and those in Transkei? MR DANDALA I don’t know in the higher authorities, I don’t know. MR DUKADA Now before the killing of Mr Ndondo which instances where you were working with members of the security branch in South Africa? MR DANDALA There were no instances that I worked with members of South Africa. MR DUKADA Until it was only this day? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA That is the, in fact 23rd September 1985? MR DANDALA ‘85, yes. MR DUKADA It was your first day to deal with members of the South African security branch? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Were politicians in Transkei briefed about the activities of underground unit? MR DANDALA Can you come again please? MR DUKADA Were politicians in Transkei briefed about the activities of the underground unit? MR DANDALA No. MR DUKADA Now Mr Dandala, surely, you are a Transkeian, and have been in Transkei for quite some time? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And were you born in Transkei? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And 1984 in Transkei was a year of crises at the University of Transkei? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Okay. There were deportations, banishments and arrests as well as detention of students? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Do you agree with that? And surely your five, as a member of an underground unit, had some information about these student activities at the University? MR DANDALA I was recruited late, I’m sure it was November, between November and December 1984 to the security branch. MR DUKADA Yes, but. MR DANDALA So I don’t know about those deportations exactly. It was the thing that I heard from the radios. MR DUKADA And ‘85, in fact to be more precise, 1984 and 1985 there was a crises at the University? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And members of the police force were deployed to look after the unrest? MR DANDALA No, I don’t know. MR DUKADA You see, long before the killing of the deceased, do you remember an incident when a Minister of Education, the late Mr Bubu, read out the names of certain students at the University of Transkei who had received military training at Lesotho? MR DANDALA No, I don’t remember. MR DUKADA Yes, but that was broadcast in Radio Transkei long before the killing of Ndondo? You must know that. MR DANDALA I don’t remember that. MR DUKADA You mean as a member of the underground unit you were not aware about that? MR DANDALA I don’t recall it. MR DUKADA So I take it that up to now you as a member of the underground unit, you don’t know that a Minister of State went to Radio Transkei and read out a list of names of students at the University of Transkei who had received training at Lesotho? MR DANDALA No, I don’t know it. MR DUKADA And in that list it was Batandwa Ndondo and he was mentioned as the last student in the list, read by the Minister? MR DANDALA I didn’t even see it, I don’t know it. MR DUKADA Now surely your knowledge about the politics of Transkei must be very shallow Mr Dandala? Do you agree with me? MR DANDALA It could be. MR DUKADA Particularly as a member of the underground unit who was supposed to be vigilant, your knowledge about the events that were taking place is very shallow? MR DANDALA As I say, it could be. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dukada, when was this broadcast over the radio? MR DUKADA Sorry Mr Chairman, it was in 1984. CHAIRPERSON ... [inaudible] Mr Dandala, the kind of information which the Minister is alleged to have broadcast over the radio, would that be the sort of information that as a security branch you would be interested in? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. And Mr Dandala, during 1984, Batandwa Ndondo was detained by the security police for the activities at the University of Transkei many times, you know about that? MR DANDALA No, I don’t know it. MR DUKADA You mean Mr Dandala, as a member of an underground unit, you don’t know that Batandwa Ndondo was detained in Transkei by the security branch many times? MR DANDALA Sorry, can I ask the question? MR DUKADA The question to you is. MR DANDALA Because I was recruited late 1984 so I don’t know what happened during the year 1984. CHAIRPERSON The question that is being put to you is that, are you suggesting that, as a member of the security branch operating in Transkei, you had no knowledge that the deceased had been detained by the Transkeian security branch many times? MR DANDALA Yes, I have no knowledge. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. Now, I mean as a member of, sorry Mr Chairman, I’m repeating the same question but I’m just putting an emphasis to the witness, you mean at the time Mr Dandala, as a member, not necessarily as a member of the underground unit but as a member of the security branch, you were completely aware about the detentions which took place at the University of Transkei? MR DANDALA No I was not aware of those detentions. CHAIRPERSON Where were you stationed as a security branch police officer? MR DANDALA Firstly I was stationed at Manfrey then I was taken to the head office. CHAIRPERSON And where was the head office? MR DANDALA Sorry? CHAIRPERSON Where was the head office? MR DANDALA Here in ...[inaudible]. CHAIRPERSON In Umtata? MR DANDALA In Umtata. CHAIRPERSON Yes and when was that? MR DANDALA It was in 1985. I don’t remember the month, but early. CHAIRPERSON So by early 1985 you were operating as a security branch in Umtata? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. And at the time Ndondo in 1984 was not only an ordinary student at the University but he was a high profile student, a student activist, did you know that? MR DANDALA No. I didn’t know it. MR DUKADA Did you know of any other student activist belonging to the University of Transkei? MR DANDALA No. MR DUKADA Do you know of any student being detained in Transkei in 1984? MR DANDALA No, I don’t know. MR DUKADA Now in 1985, 26th June, ‘85 the Umtata Fuel Depot was bombed. MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Did you get any information about the culprits? MR DANDALA No I didn’t get that information about the culprits. MR DUKADA What did you do as the underground unit? MR DANDALA In fact as the underground security member we were trying to get information but we couldn’t manage to get it, concerning the bombing. MR DUKADA And subsequently you know very well that on the 12th October 1985, K T Matanzima announced publicly that Ndondo was responsible for the bombing? MR DANDALA I heard that announcement from the radio. MR DUKADA And you know very well that a different person, a complete different person was charged with the bombing of the fuel depot? MR DANDALA No, I don’t know. MR DUKADA Don’t you know that a certain gentleman by the name of Venner was charged with the bombing? MR DANDALA No. MR DUKADA But you were still a member of the underground unit in Transkei? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And yet you didn’t know that an MK cadre was charged with the bombing of Umtata Fuel Depot, not Batandwa Ndondo? MR DANDALA No, I didn’t know that he was charged of bombing. MR DUKADA And you don’t even know that the gentleman Venner was ultimately released after the ANC had been unbanned, you don’t know that as well? MR DANDALA No, I don’t know it. MR DUKADA Now if I can read to you before we, sorry Mr Chairman, this is irritating, it’s done by me unintentionally. I’ll just read it to you, a daily despatch of the Sunday Star, in fact the quotation I will be reading out to you it spreads throughout the national newspapers in Transkei as well as the Republic. It’s a statement which was made by the then State President of Transkei, K T Matanzima. "I want the whole world to know that here in Transkei we know the people who are causing trouble. Recently a young man called Ndondo was killed in Xala. Many people are asking why Mr Ndondo was killed. He is the one who came from Lesotho with others and exploded a bomb in Umtata. The petrol depot which exploded should have killed the whole of the Umtata population was destroyed by this young fellow, Ndondo. You will see the Communists when we are asking what has Ndondo done. Must you all be killed because of these people." Now I just want you to concentrate on this following paragraph. "Your President, your Prime Minister and your cabinet will not allow such atrocities to take place in Transkei." You know about this speech? MR DANDALA Yes I know about it from the radios. MR DUKADA And surely the person, when the former State President said your President, your Prime Minister and your cabinet will not allow such atrocities to take place in Transkei. That gives the impression that you had known about the killing before it took place? MR DANDALA That myself? MR DUKADA No, ...[inaudible] the President, yes. MR DANDALA No no. MR DUKADA Do you understand the question? MR DANDALA Could you come again please? MR DUKADA No. When he says that your President, your Prime Minister and your cabinet will not allow such atrocities to take place in Transkei, that gives the impression that he had known about the killing before it took place, do you agree with me? MR DANDALA Myself or? CHAIRPERSON It doesn’t follow Mr Dukada does it? MR DANDALA I don’t understand your question. MR DUKADA I’m sorry Mr Chairman let me just re-phrase the question. It might be sounding inappropriate. CHAIRPERSON ... [inaudible] MR DUKADA It’s the Sunday Star but I have more cuttings ... [inaudible]. CHAIRPERSON ... [inaudible] MR DUKADA That is correct yes. CHAIRPERSON ... [inaudible] MR DUKADA Well unfortunately Mr Chairman I have one copy. At the appropriate stage I will hand them in. CHAIRPERSON ... [inaudible] MR DUKADA I’ll be coming back to this topic later Mr Dandala but can I ask you a question now. Did the former State President know about the killing of Ndondo before it took place? MR DANDALA No, I don’t know. MR DUKADA You don’t know? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA But surely that is not a remark which can be made by a head of state irresponsibly, do you agree with me? MR DANDALA That it could be made by the head of the state? MR DUKADA I say to you that a statement, a sinister statement of this nature would not be made by a head of state irresponsibly. He had information? MR DANDALA Yes, as far as I can hear it from you. Seemingly he had information about it. Myself I don’t know whether he had any information about it. MR DUKADA And that information would come from the underground unit in Transkei? MR DANDALA: I don’t know whether he had any information about, I mean, when making that statement. MR DUKADA Do you think Mr Dandala a head of state would just go publicly and make an announcement of this nature when he was not possessed with facts? MR DANDALA I don’t know where he got it. MR DUKADA Did you subsequently find out? MR DANDALA No, I didn’t. MR DUKADA Did you make any endeavours to investigate the statement? MR DANDALA No, I didn’t investigate it. MR DUKADA Did you have any interest to the statement as a member of the underground unit? MR DANDALA I had interest but I didn’t investigate it. MR DUKADA Now on the 23rd of September 1984 you were called by Colonel Booi at Bodostow Building and briefed about your trip to Barkly East, is that correct? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Can you just tell the Committee what was discussed in the office of Colonel Booi? MR DANDALA Discussed by Colonel Booi together with me? MR DUKADA Yes. MR DANDALA He just told me that I must go to Barkly East to assist the members of the South African Police when they are coming in Transkei. They cannot go to the offices to ask for a policeman. MR DUKADA To assist in what? MR DANDALA When they are coming to operate in Transkei. MR DUKADA Yes, exactly. This is what I want to find out. To do what in Transkei? MR DANDALA To arrest political, I mean ANC members. MR DUKADA Yes but please, Mr Dandala, just give us a full picture of what took place in the office of Colonel Booi before departing to Barkly East? What was the nature of assignment given to you? What was discussed there together with Colonel Booi? MR DANDALA Colonel Booi told me that I am going to work, I’m going to assist South African Police members who are working with trained terrorists only. MR DUKADA Yes. And then you said in one of your statements that after you had been told by Colonel Booi that you were supposed to go to Barkly East and he suggested to you that your mission there might be longer. You went and came back with your belongings. Is that correct? MR DANDALA Yes. He said I must go and collect my clothing. MR DUKADA And when you came back you found Braam Moss, Eric Shabalala and there were a lot of other people? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Yes. Surely? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Surely something was discussed? MR DANDALA By myself and Colonel Booi? MR DUKADA By everybody who was in the office of Colonel Booi? MR DANDALA No, Colonel Booi was just alone in the office. MR DUKADA No, what I’m saying is that when you were about to leave when you came back with your clothes, then you met Braam Moss, Shabalala and a lot of other people. What actually took place? MR DANDALA These people they were in kombis, in the kombis. MR DUKADA And proceeding to Barkly East? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Did you ask the details of the mission? MR DANDALA No, I didn’t ask the details of the mission. MR DUKADA You knew nothing about the precise details of the mission? MR DANDALA About what? MR DUKADA The precise details of the mission? MR DANDALA No. MR DUKADA You see but you know Mr Dandala, Shabalala, in his statement, your companion, he says that he and various other officials of the security branch in the Republic on that day, they were instructed to operate in Transkei. It was a joint operation between the members of ...[inaudible] branch in Transkei and those in South Africa. You know about that? MR DANDALA No. I didn’t see it. I don’t know it. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that you didn’t see it? MR DANDALA I mean I didn’t see his statement. CHAIRPERSON But what’s been put to you is that his statement suggests that there was a joint operation between the Transkei security branch and the South African security branch. Do you agree with that? MR DANDALA I can agree, yes. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. And this joint operation consisted of Captain Eugene de Kock. There were also some other members of the security branch or should I say from the Department of Police in the Republic of South Africa who joined you at Barkly East? MR DANDALA I don’t know Eugene de Kock. MR DUKADA No no I’m sorry, let me just put, I might be putting an inaccurate statement, sorry. According to Shabalala, he was a member of Vlakplaas Security Branch and on the day in question he received instructions to go down to Barkly East, did you know about that? MR DANDALA No, I didn’t know about that. MR DUKADA Then on your arrival at Barkly East, what was discussed there concerning operations in Transkei? MR DANDALA On our arrival there I was taken to the room where Constable Booyse was sleeping. MR DUKADA Yes. MR DANDALA There were no discussions together with these people. I was just with Constable Booyse in the room for the whole night. We slept together. MR DUKADA Did you plan the operation? MR DANDALA No, we didn’t plan. We had no plans. We didn’t plan any operations. We were just called in the morning by Braam Moss. MR DUKADA You had two mini buses? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Both of them full of passengers? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Did you find this as an ordinary routine operation? MR DANDALA ... [inaudible] to see them so I don’t know whether it was their routine or what. MR DUKADA But surely Mr Dandala this should have raised eyebrows. For the first time you as a security policeman, you have one of the kombis is having tinted windows? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Were you not curious to find out exactly what was happening? MR DANDALA Yes but I didn’t ask anything about that. MR DUKADA You had no interest to find out from any of your colleagues at, whilst you were at Barkly East? MR DANDALA No. MR DUKADA What was really happening? MR DANDALA I didn’t try to find out from anybody. MR DUKADA And the mini bus with tinted windows had an XC. MR DANDALA XS. MR DUKADA Sorry, XS registration and that is the registration number of Xala where Ndondo was residing? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Then what, again that didn’t even raise any eyebrows to you? MR DANDALA No, because there were sometimes even Transkei they were putting false registration numbers so as not to be identified by the people that they are police. CHAIRPERSON When it is convenient Mr Dukada would you indicate so that we can take the ... [inaudible] adjournment. MR DUKADA No, thank you Mr Chairman, I would appreciate an adjournment Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Did you finish that point? Yes, very well. We’ll adjourn for lunch. We’ll come back at 2 o’clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON ... [inaudible] you’re still under oath? GCINISIKO LAMONI DANDALA That’s correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Dukada. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DUKADA (cont) Thank you Mr Chairman, Honourable members. Mr Dandala, remember that when we adjourned I was asking you about what was taking place at Barkly East. When you arrived there, but before we deal with what happened there, who did you meet on arrival at Barkly East, besides Constable Booyse? MR DANDALA I did not find any other person there. MR DUKADA Was there anything said to you by any policemen there? MR DANDALA No, no such thing was said, any such thing was said. MR DUKADA You have given evidence to say that you did not know that Braam Moss, Shabalala and Shosha were askaris? MR DANDALA Yes, I did not know. MR DUKADA And you first knew that they were askaris when you were proceeding down, facing the direction of Elliott, just before Batandwa could jump out? I’m sorry to correct myself Mr Chairman. When you were proceeding to Xala, you heard them conversing about a person who doesn’t co-operate with them and it was then that you became aware that they were askaris? MR DANDALA I asked as to whether all of us were policemen in the kombi and they said no they are not policemen. MR DUKADA You made a statement to an investigating officer, I don’t remember the name, if you could turn to Page - I’m sorry Mr Chairman, I’ve just lost the trend. CHAIRPERSON ... [inaudible] appears on Page 29 which was probably made, I think it’s on the 2nd October 1997, is that the one? INTERPRETER ...[problem with microphone] MR DUKADA I’m sorry Mr Chairman. I’ve got the exact paragraph I want to refer the witness to at Page 30 of the bundle. There is a statement which was made by the witness on the 2nd October 1997 but will you Mr Dandala, have a look at Page 30 of the document? Do you know this sentence begins with the words, "I don’t know if it is okay to mention", have you seen that? MR DANDALA Yes, I see it. CHAIRPERSON The statement which commences from Page 29, all the way through to 40. The statement that commences at Page 29 of the bundle of documents which begins by saying, "the statement of suspect Gcinisiko Lamont Dandala". Is that the statement that you made to the investigating officer? MR DANDALA That’s correct sir. CHAIRPERSON Do you recall when this statement was made? It says it was made on the 2nd October 1997. MR DANDALA Yes I do. I do remember. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ... [inaudible] direct you to Page 30. Do you have Page 30 there? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. Will you please read Page 30 of the bundle, the sentence which begins with the words, "I don’t know", can you read that? MR DANDALA I don’t know if it is okay to mention that these men were not SAP members. Were not SAP members. I don’t know if it is okay to mention that these men were SAP members because there is something that I realised later. What I realised later is that they were askaris, these were askaris. Askaris are trained terrorists. I realised it after the offence was committed. MR DUKADA Yes sorry. Just stop there. Unless you wish to proceed? Can you see now that in the statement you made you say that you first knew that Braam Moss, Shabalala and Shosha were askaris after the killing of Batandwa? MR DANDALA What I was trying to explain here is that there is this word askaris. I did not know it. I used to know the word trained terrorist. Trained terrorist. I got to know the word askari after they were killed. I mean after the killing of Ndondo. MR DUKADA In your evidence in chief you indicated that you began to know that the three were defectors from the ANC, whilst you were on the way to Xala? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And you felt threatened, as a result of the threat you participated in the killing, is that correct? MR DANDALA Yes, that’s so. MR DUKADA But now, in your statement you say, "I realised it after the offence was committed". MR DANDALA That is why I’m saying I was trying to explain about the word askaris. MR DUKADA I’m not concerned about the word askari Mr Dandala. What I’m concerned about is that before you reached, on the way to Xala you discovered that the three were ANC defectors? MR DANDALA That is correct. MR DUKADA And as a result of the conversation which was taking place you felt threatened? MR DANDALA Correct. MR DUKADA Now you say in your, let me just again refer to this paragraph, "I don’t know if it is okay to mention that these men were SAP members" because there is something that I realised later. What I realised later is that they were askaris. In other words what you are saying here, you realised that they were ANC defectors after the killing? MR DANDALA If I understand you correctly, as far as I am concerned I was trying to explain the word askari. It may be that it does not sound like that but that’s what I was trying to do. But I did not know that word. I got to know about it after the incident. MR DUKADA Can I ask this question to you. Can I ask you this question Mr Dandala? When did you first know that the three were ANC defectors? MR DANDALA Along the way towards Xala. MR DUKADA You see after the incident all of you made statements, is that correct? MR DANDALA No, it’s me and Braam Moss. MR DUKADA And in his statement Braam Moss indicated, right at the beginning of his statement, Mr Chairman it’s not part of the bundle. I must apologise the assumption I made which was in fact a mistake, I just, all these documents they come from the TRC offices, I just assumed that all the panels are in possession of the document. I shall nevertheless hand in the statements during the course of the proceedings. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Dukada. MR DUKADA In the statement made by Braam Moss, after the killing, he says, "I am a former member of the African National Congress. I was arrested on 4th September 1972 in Queenstown by the South African Police. I was released after co-operating and testifying for the State in several court cases. Because of the knowledge and background I possess on the ANC I was employed by the Transkeian Police to assist them in combating and investigating the activities of the ANC in the Republic of Transkei." Surely you must know about that? MR DANDALA No I don’t know about it. MR DUKADA Do you mean that the fact that Braam Moss was employed by the Transkeian Police was not known to you prior to the killing of Batandwa? MR DANDALA Can you please repeat your question? MR DUKADA Do you mean that before the killing of Batandwa, you did not know that Braam Moss was employed by the Transkeian Police to cope with the ANC? MR DANDALA No, I did not know. CHAIRPERSON You didn’t know Moss at all? MR DANDALA I did not know him at all. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. And again Shosha also made a statement where she indicated that she was also a defector from the ANC and he was assisting the Transkeian Police in combating the activities of the ANC in Transkei, that you also don’t know? MR DANDALA No, I don’t know that too. MR DUKADA Despite the fact that you were in the underground unit specially established to deal with ANC, you don’t know that these three were co-operating with Transkei? MR DANDALA I did not know those three and it was the first time for me to meet them. MR DUKADA Right, now you see the, on the 23rd September 1985 you slept at Barkly East in a hotel, together with Constable Booyse? MR DANDALA Correct. MR DUKADA Was Constable Booyse a member of the Transkeian Police Force? MR DANDALA Yes, he was part of the Transkeian Police Force. MR DUKADA Did you enquire from him what was the mission about? MR DANDALA I asked and he said they were busy patrolling the Transkei. MR DUKADA Now the following morning, 24th September 1984, sorry ‘85, you drove from Barkly East, picked up Shosha, the informer and proceeded to Xala, is that correct? MR DANDALA Correct. MR DUKADA And on arrival at the police station you identified yourselves and wanted the whereabouts of the place of residence for the security officers, that is correct? MR DANDALA The security offices yes. MR DUKADA Now can you turn to Page 17 of the statement you made after the incident. Paragraph 2. I will not read the first sentence of Paragraph 2. The second sentence reads, "We were instructed to go and arrest Batandwa Ndondo in connection with terrorism ANC. We were told by the members of Xala Security Branch that they have also received instructions from the Security Branch Umtata to arrest Batandwa Ndondo." Can you see that? MR DANDALA I do. MR DUKADA Were you aware that the Umtata Security Office had issued those instructions to the security men at Xala that Ndondo should be arrested? MR DANDALA No, I did not know. MR DUKADA So as an underground member of the unit you were not informed about this? MR DANDALA No. MR DUKADA Now, do you still maintain this is what you stated in your statement? MR DANDALA In this statement, as I have said, part of what is written thereon was written in order to cover up and some of the things I did not do out of my own free will. I was told to do so on the advice to destroy the case. MR DUKADA Are you saying Mr Dandala that when you were told by the police at Xala, sorry let me re-phrase the question. When you mentioned here that the police at Xala advised you that they had been informed by Umtata head office to arrest Ndondo, it was a cover up? MR DANDALA Yes I can say so. That was not what I said. It was not coming out of me. It was part of the cover up story. MR DUKADA What was the purpose of the cover? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA What was the purpose? MR DANDALA There was the story that the trace must be destroyed. MR DUKADA Yes but for you to mention this, to what extent would the case be destroyed? MR DANDALA The intention was to frustrate any progress in the case. MR DUKADA To what extent? You had been given instructions to go and arrest Ndondo. You were four in a mini bus. Now when you arrived at the police station according to you, the policemen there told you that they had already received instructions from head office in Umtata to arrest Ndondo. What I’m asking you, this fabrication, to what extent would it destroy the case? MR DANDALA The policemen that they got there was one. He did not say this. What he said to me, Ndondo had just past, driving a car. He did not say they were ever instructed by Umtata to arrest him. That’s why this was to cover up because some of the things it was said this must be done this way in order to make sure that the case falters. MR DUKADA I’m asking you for the third time, to what extent would such fabrication destroy the case, or make a cover up? MR DANDALA I would not know. MR DUKADA Tell me Mr Dandala, of all what you have stated in this Committee as well as previous affidavits, including the affidavit you deposed to to apply for amnesty in this matter, which matter is a cover up? And which matters are not a cover up? MR DANDALA What I can say in my affidavit, the one I used to apply for amnesty, I said all that had happened on that day and in this statement I got a lot of advices that is why I say I was advised in order to prefer for the case, some of the things did not come directly from me. MR DUKADA Yes, but here at this Committee you are expected to disclose the full truth. Why did you not mention in your affidavit supporting your application that certain issues previously mentioned in the other statements were intended to be a cover up? MR DANDALA It may be an omission on my part but as far as the affidavit goes, what I said therein is all true and what has happened. MR DUKADA You see Mr Dandala, you’ve made five or six statements on different occasions and in none of those statements you mentioned that some of the things were a cover up, do you understand? MR DANDALA Yes I do. MR DUKADA Now even in your latest affidavit you deposed to on the 4th June ‘98, to ask amnesty, you never mentioned that some of the things were intended to be a cover up, do you understand that? MR DANDALA I do. MR DUKADA Now, listen to my question. The next question is very important now. Everybody here is interested to know. You had a meeting with Lieutenant Booi in Umtata to go to Barkly in order to prepare the arrest of Batandwa. You went to Barkly and you also went to Xala Police to notify your presence there. Why was there a need to take all these steps instead of simply phoning the security police at Xala, whilst you are in Umtata and tell them to arrest Ndondo? MR DANDALA I would not know. That must be asked from Colonel Booi. MR DUKADA Did you ask Colonel Booi? MR DANDALA No, I didn’t ask. I did not ask Colonel Booi about that. MR DUKADA Do you not find it curious that a Colonel, this is a simple thing, would deal with an ordinary student activist who is not a danger to anybody? Let’s phone the police at Xala to go and arrest Batandwa because they are the better people who knew him and knew where he resided? MR DANDALA He did not say we were supposed to go and arrest Batandwa. He said I must go and assist South African Police. MR DUKADA Assist in what? MR DANDALA As they are coming to do their work in Transkei. MR DUKADA So is it evidence that throughout your dealings with the police, South African Police including the askaris, you didn’t even know what the nature of the operations to be conducted in Transkei? MR DANDALA No I did not know. MS SIGODI Had you ever assisted the South African Police before? MR DANDALA No, never before. MR DUKADA Thank you. And even on the following morning when you were being addressed by Braam Moss, you never even asked what the nature of the operations were about? MR DANDALA What he said when he was explaining to us, we must move to Xala, to go and arrest Batandwa Ndondo. I did not ask anything. MR DUKADA To arrest Ndondo for what? MR DANDALA I did not ask anything because I assumed that they were going to arrest a terrorist. I did not ask anything. MR DUKADA In other words are you saying that after the stage Ndondo was killed, you had not known at all what he had done, politically? MR DANDALA No I did not know. MR DUKADA Are you really serious Mr Dandala? MR DANDALA I’m serious. I cannot say I knew and yet I did not know. MR DUKADA Again, as a member of the underground unit, you did not even know what Batandwa had done? MR DANDALA No I did not know anything about him and I did not know him. MR DUKADA And at what stage did you know about Batandwa? MR DANDALA It was only at the time when I was told we were going to arrest him at Xala that I got to hear his name. MR DUKADA Now what I’m asking you, at what stage did you become to know about Batandwa? What was the reason for him to be killed or arrested? MR DANDALA I never got to know the reason, that’s why I’m saying I did not ask because I realised that a trained person was going to be arrested. MR DUKADA So all what you know until Batandwa was first at his home and killed, all what you knew was that there was a terrorist by the name of Batandwa Ndondo to be arrested at Xala? MR DANDALA ... [no English translation] MR DUKADA All what you knew from Barkly to Xala, you understood that there was a terrorist by the name of Batandwa Ndondo, who was going to be fetched at Xala? MR DANDALA Correct. MR DUKADA You did not know what he had done wrong? MR DANDALA No I did not know, I was not told. MR DUKADA Not even bother to ask what he had done? I’m talking to you now as a member of the underground unit. MR DANDALA No I did not ask. MR DUKADA So you arrived at Xala. Why, you know, you say that you fabricated the version that police at Xala on arrival told you that there had been instructions from Umtata to arrest Ndondo, you say you fabricated that? MR DANDALA Yes that was a fabrication. MR DUKADA Now if it was an ordinary arrest of a political offender, was it necessary to have askaris? We are not talking about a man who was a danger to the society or the Government then we are talking about a man who was simply accused of having undergone a training at Lesotho. MR DANDALA Can you please repeat. MR DUKADA Was it necessary to have a contingent of yourself and askaris in a tinted window mini bus when effecting arrest of Batandwa? MR DANDALA Because I did not know the way of the modus operandi as there were also askaris, I did not even know that I was moving around with askaris. I got to know about it along the way. CHAIRPERSON May I just clarify one thing. I gather that Braam Moss or Captain Moss informed you on the morning that you were going to arrest Batandwa Ndondo? MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON You did not enquire from him what for, you simply assumed that Batandwa Ndondo was one of the persons that you would be looking for, a terrorist? MR DANDALA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So, and that was the purpose of going to Xala, to arrest him? MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON In your statement to which your attention has been drawn by Counsel there is a portion which indicates that you were instructed to go and arrest Batandwa in connection with terrorism, do you see that portion? The very first paragraph, I think it’s the second sentence of the second paragraph. Is that right? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now I understand from you that that is a fabrication, that’s not true. What stands in that statement is not true? MR DANDALA As I have said some of the sections. CHAIRPERSON Forget about other portions, I’m just asking you about this portion that I have just directed your attention to? MR DANDALA This is part of the truth. CHAIRPERSON What about the next sentence which says, "we were told by the members of the Xala security branch that they have also received instructions to, from the security branch in Umtata to arrest Batandwa Ndondo, is that true? MR DANDALA No, that was not true as it is part of the effort to cover up. But it is true that the instruction came from Braam Moss that we must go and arrest Batandwa. CHAIRPERSON So it was a cover up for you to have made, to have stated in your statement that the Xala Police officers also informed you that they had also received instructions to go and arrest the deceased? MR DANDALA That was not so. CHAIRPERSON It was a cover up? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Do you know what it was intended to cover up? MR DANDALA The usual speech was they were trying to make the case okay. I did not know how they would make the case okay. CHAIRPERSON Can you just think of a reason how that would have covered up the fact that you were going there to arrest the deceased? MR DANDALA Can you please repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON How that would have covered up the fact that you had gone to Xala to arrest the deceased? MR DANDALA I don’t understand the question. CHAIRPERSON As I understand your evidence, you were told by Captain Moss or Braam Moss that you were going to Xala in order to arrest the deceased? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now you say, it is a cover up for you to state in your statement that the police in Xala were also looking for the deceased on the instructions of Umtata Police? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Now, what I want to know from your own knowledge, what was intended to be covered by that statement? Why was it necessary to say that if it wasn’t true? Do you know? MR DANDALA I can only say they were preparing this for the head office and the security members. CHAIRPERSON Well, you were already, you had already been given instructions to go and arrest the deceased? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And these instructions came from. MR DANDALA Braam Moss. CHAIRPERSON From Moss. Did Moss indicate where those instructions had come from? MR DANDALA No he did not say. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. Just before we actually get into the main event Mr Dandala. Can you explain, why did you have to sleep at Barkly East for simply arresting a man who was at Xala? What planning took place? MR DANDALA Please repeat the question? MR DUKADA Why did you have to sleep at Barkly East if you were going to do a simple thing to arrest Ndondo at Xala? MR DANDALA It was because Colonel Booi had said I must go to Barkly East and assist the South African Police. I then got it at Barkly East that we had to go and arrest Batandwa. MR DUKADA Yes but at Barkly East, it appears to this Committee that it was merely your sleeping place. According to your evidence nothing whatsoever was discussed about Ndondo. Do you know why you had to sleep at Barkly East? To drive from Umtata, sleep at Barkly East, the following day you go and do this simple thing that is an arrest? MR DANDALA I do not know the reason. MR DUKADA Did you ask Braam Moss or any other policemen on the 23rd September 1985 why are we supposed to sleep here? MR DANDALA No. I don’t remember asking any other person. MR DUKADA Do you agree with me Mr Dandala that there was no need for engaging askaris and yourself as well if all what had to be done was to arrest Ndondo only? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Do you agree with me, there was no need for that? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Now can you tell the Committee truly why the askaris were engaged to do a simple thing, that is to effect an arrest, which could have been done by the Xala Police? MR DANDALA I would not be able to tell because I did not know the reason why askaris had to be brought in. MR DUKADA Even today you don’t know why askaris were engaged in the operation? MR DANDALA Are you referring to incidents relating to that day or are you referring generally? MR DUKADA I’m referring to any day Mr Dandala. MR DANDALA I got to know about the reasons later that askaris and I got to know about it that they are the people who point people out, that there is a person and that person be arrested and they are not instrumental in arresting people. That’s how I got to know about it. MR DUKADA At this point we are dealing here with a student activist, a man who had a high profile throughout Transkei, a man who was known in his own place, a man who was close to a family which was in and out of detention, that is the Ntsebeza family. Was there any need for informers or askaris to go and identify Batandwa when simply the police at Xala would have just driven a van and pick up Ndondo and arrest him? CHAIRPERSON I thought there was something in the statement that indicates that Shosha had to identify the deceased as having been the person with whom he underwent training in Lesotho? MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman the point I’m developing is that Batandwa was well known in Transkei as a whole and as the policemen whom they found at Xala was easy for him to say that the gentleman had just past. The question I’m asking Mr Chairman, was there any need for identification of Ndondo when he was a public figure in Transkei? CHAIRPERSON Identification for what purpose? For the purposes of an arrest or for the purposes of identifying a person who underwent military training with Shosha at Lesotho? What Shosha did? MR DUKADA Sorry, I don’t know whether Mr Chairman here, with me the point I’m putting to the witness. CHAIRPERSON Where is this going to take us? The witness has said that insofar as he is concerned, there was no need to have the askaris. MR DUKADA Yes. Thank you Mr Chairman, if you are satisfied with the point. Now if you are travelling, I don’t know whether you still have the picture from the Ntsebeza house where Batandwa was fetched to the police station or let me put it this way, to the spot where Batandwa was killed. You have to pass the police station, do you agree with me? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And it is a distance of approximately half a kilometre to travel from the place where he was first, to the police station? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And if the purpose was to arrest Ndondo, why did you pass the police station? MR DANDALA That is why I’m saying I was surprised when I saw the kombi turning away from the charge office instead of going towards it. MR DUKADA Did you ask anybody inside why was the kombi passing the police station? MR DANDALA No I did not ask, instead Braam Moss said I must produce my ID. MR DUKADA You didn’t find it necessary to ask? MR DANDALA No, I did not ask. MR DUKADA Where were you going? Did you even ask where was the kombi proceeding to? MR DANDALA Are you saying when it was turning about, no I did not ask. MR DUKADA Not asking at any stage, the kombi was turning about. I’m asking you, you were from Ndondo’s house, you drove and past, for about half a kilometre, you past the police station and after you had past the police station, you didn’t even know where the kombi was proceeding to? MR DANDALA I did not know. MR DUKADA Why did you not ask? MR DANDALA I’m saying, the kombi turned and I was then told I must produce, that I must indicate that I was a policeman. I then did not ask any further questions. MR DUKADA But in your statement you say that the kombi past the police station and you became surprised. CHAIRPERSON Which statement is that? There are a number of statements. Would that be the affidavit or the statement? The affidavit, yes, very well. Which one, the, yes. MR DUKADA Page 11 of the bundle. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. MR DUKADA Paragraph 19, you say that, the second sentence, "Up to that stage I thought that we are going to charge office but to my surprise the kombi was turned to the direction of Elliott and I was told by Moss to produce my ID." Now, my question is, when the kombi took the direction of Elliott, why did you not ask where were you proceeding to? MR DANDALA I did not ask. MR DUKADA And you were just taking a ride in the kombi, not knowing which direction you were going to? MR DANDALA Firstly, when he entered the kombi Braam Moss had said, "let us take a ride", there’s something he would like to discuss with him, that’s why he agreed. MR DUKADA Now if you turn at Page 62 of the bundle. The statement by Shabalala. Shabalala there gives a detailed narrative, Page 62 Mr Chairman, he gives a detailed narrative. The first date he mentioned in Paragraph 3, the 19th of September 1985 at about 1 o’clock he was with Moss and they were on duty at Ngobo. The next date and is the 20th September 1985 where it was on Friday they were visiting a certain detainee, the detainee mentioned the names of certain people whom he had trained with in Lesotho and the last paragraph of that statement Shabalala says that after confronting the informer, that is this Shosha apparently. There were names of certain gentlemen who were disclosed to him as trained ANC members in Lesotho then he goes on to say, that is the last sentence, "We conveyed this information to Brigadier de Mooi who instructed us to arrest Toby ...[inaudible] and Batandwa Ndondo." Do you get that? MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman, if I might just add at this point, this statement that my learned colleague is reading from with regard to Mr Shabalala, Mr Shabalala never signed and denies ever having made, just for the Record. So I don’t, I just wanted to inform the Committee of that. It would come out of his evidence and in fact if the Committee refers to the statement that was made by Mr Shabalala to the Attorney General’s special investigative team, he specifically, on Page, I think it is 79 of the bundle, towards the end, I don’t have the reference. CHAIRPERSON That begins at Page 71? Is that the one? MR KNIGHT That is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Well this is the statement of the arresting officer, at Page 66 which goes all the way to. MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman it’s Page 78, right at the top of the page. That is the paginated 78. Where he says, " I deny that this A17 was done by me and I have no knowledge of the content thereof." And it continues Mr Chairman. I just wanted to. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR DUKADA May I proceed Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON What is the date of this statement? The one that, this is the one that is in Afrikaans right? When was that made? MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman, at Piet Retief on the 24th April 1997 before Inspector Jordaan who is with the Attorney General special investigative unit. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Knight. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman, I don’t know whether this was intended to stop me from referring the witness to the statement made by Shabalala or shall I proceed with my question? CHAIRPERSON I think that the point that is being made is that Shabalala didn’t make a statement, that the document which appears here at Pages 62, all the way through 65 I think it is, is not a statement by Shabalala. MR DUKADA Mr Chairman I believe that I am entitled to pursue my questioning of the witness on this statement because I’m testing the credibility of what the witness is saying. Shabalala, if he comes back, when he testified for amnesty he is free to say that he never made the statement. CHAIRPERSON You see the problem is that that statement is not signed by Shabalala and we would now have the statement on behalf of. INTERPRETER The speaker is not on the mike. MR DUKADA I take your point Mr Chairman. May I proceed? Thank you. Mr Dandala when you arrived at Ndondo’s home you stated that it was only yourself who alighted from the kombi and talked to Ndondo? MR DANDALA No. I only found a slim person at the house. MR DUKADA What I’m saying is that you ultimately talked to Ndondo and he said he will be coming to join you? MR DANDALA I got this youngish fellow who went to Ndondo at the bathroom and came back with the message saying that Ndondo will be coming and I then left the house first. MR DUKADA He joined you in the kombi and you drove away? MR DANDALA Correct. MR DUKADA You mean as somebody was accused of being a terrorist, you never even bothered to conduct a search in his premises? MR DANDALA No we did not conduct any search. MR DUKADA You did not even look for any weapons at his home? MR DANDALA No we did not. MR DUKADA In this case no warrant had been issued for the arrest of Ndondo? Do you agree with me? MR DANDALA No, there was no warrant. MR DUKADA And surely that was irregular, you know that? As an experienced policeman you know that it was irregular to arrest somebody without a warrant in those circumstances? MR DANDALA You can arrest a person without a warrant. MR DUKADA But now the point I’m saying is that at the time he boarded the kombi, he had not been told at all about the accusation of being a terrorist? MR DANDALA No he was not told. MR DUKADA Do you agree with me Mr Dandala in retrospect, there was no need to kill Batandwa on the day in question? If you wanted to destroy him politically, it was simple to arrest and take him to Court. Do you agree with me? MR DANDALA Yes I agree. MR DUKADA It would have been very easy even if he was running away to catch him. To apprehend him and take him to the police cells. MR DANDALA It was easy but because he had already contested the arrest by struggling against Shabalala and winning they started shooting. MR DUKADA Now but do you agree with me, right where you are seated now, that the shooting itself was not necessary? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Do you agree with me? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA If you wanted to apprehend him again it was very easy in the circumstances to do so? MR DANDALA It was easy because in the beginning the kombi was not supposed to have left without going first to the charge office. MR DUKADA Then it is not true that Batandwa was shot because he was escaping from lawful custody? MR DANDALA That is true because he was already under arrest at the time. MR DUKADA Yes but I’m sorry to repeat the question but what I’m saying to you, to re-arrest him it was an easy task? MR DANDALA To re-arrest him? MR DUKADA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON On the evidence of this witness, the deceased somehow got out of the kombi through a window and then was running away. So on his evidence, to give chase to arrest him ... [inaudible]. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Dandala, if you wanted to re-arrest Batandwa Ndondo unharmed you would have done that easily? MR DANDALA Correct. MR DUKADA Simple thing to fire a shot in the sky to warn him about the danger of escaping from lawful custody? MR DANDALA No that was not done. As far as I am concerned they fired straight to him. MR DUKADA Now what I’m saying to you sir is that if there was a real intention to re-arrest him, one of the ways of stopping him from fleeing was to fire a warning shot? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And the warning shot was never fired? MR DANDALA No. MR DUKADA And according to your evidence the firing started when he was about eight paces away from Shabalala? MR DANDALA You mean Batandwa? MR DUKADA That is correct. MR DANDALA He was not far as such, because it was from Shabalala, after the struggle he ran away. He was not far. MR DUKADA Would you agree with me that he was about at least eight paces away when the firing, from Shabalala? MR DANDALA No, not eight paces. MR DUKADA Was it less or more? MR DANDALA It was less. MR DUKADA It was less than eight paces? MR DANDALA Less than eight paces. MR DUKADA Then can you estimate the distance? MR DANDALA In my estimation it’s less than eight paces. MR DUKADA Can you estimate the distance? What distance would you estimate? MR DANDALA It would be as near as the advocate sitting there. MR DUKADA I think the estimation, it’s about five paces, Mr Chairman and Honourable members if everybody agrees with me? CHAIRPERSON About three paces. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. We all, Mr Dandala, do you agree with me, the intention was to kill Mr Ndondo, not to arrest him? MR DANDALA The intention as far as I am concerned was not to kill him. As far as I am concerned it was to arrest him. MR DUKADA But why would Shabalala empty a magazine, re-load a loaded magazine and continue firing if the intention was not to kill him. MR DANDALA I think that question can be properly answered by Shabalala. I never got to know why. MR DUKADA And then why did you fire? MR DANDALA Sorry? MR DUKADA Why did you fire? MR DANDALA When I fired it was because I had remembered what they had said in the kombi whilst we were going to Xala. MR DUKADA You see we have a post-mortem report which reveals that Mr Ndondo sustained about three injuries from the front. Mr Chairman there is another document which I asked one of the members of the Commission to assist me by providing a copy and I thought - Mr Chairperson there is a document which is being circulated, I’m going to refer the witness to that document. Mr Dandala, can you turn to Page 3 of the document? CHAIRPERSON This document that you are referring to now, what is it? MR DUKADA Mr Chairman it’s a post-mortem examination which was recorded by the doctor who conducted the post-mortem. There are two documents but I’m referring now to the second one, not the earlier document. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] by the same doctor? Yes, very well. Shall be make it Exhibit "B". MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Dandala can you turn to Page 3 of the document which has just been given to you. Just look at, there are three, I think there are four figures there, just look at the first one. You got the first figure, at the foot, just below, there’s "e" representing entry wound, "ex" that is exit wound. There if you look there are three entry wounds at the abdomen, going down to the left hip. Can you see that? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA There’s no doubt this gives the impression that at the time the deceased was shot, when he sustained these three wounds, he was facing the assailant, do you agree with me? MR DANDALA If they entered inside, it is clear that he was facing the assailant. MR DUKADA Can you explain to us how he suffered these three wounds which were inflicted when he was facing the assailant? MR DANDALA I would not know because they were chasing him from the kombi until they went after or beyond the house when they re-appeared with him still running in front. MR DUKADA And surely you would agree with me that anybody who fired shots at the deceased when the deceased was facing the assailant wanted to kill the deceased? MR DANDALA ... [no English translation] MR DUKADA You see, when he was hit facing the assailant the intention was to kill him. Do you agree with me? MR DANDALA When he is facing him, yes, that person is intending to kill him. MR DUKADA And according to the post-mortem report he sustained, there were eight bullets which penetrated the body. Have you looked at the post-mortem? CHAIRPERSON A or B? MR DANDALA Yes I see it now. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. And do you agree with me that firing, I mean inflicting eight bullet wounds on a person, there was no intention to re-arrest that person but to kill him? Do you agree with me? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And up to now you don’t know the reason why Ndondo was killed? MR DANDALA I can only say he was killed because he was running away. MR DUKADA No that shouldn’t be the position Mr Dandala. He was killed because you wanted him to die? MR DANDALA That is not so as far as I am concerned. MR DUKADA Would you also agree with me that the whole incident that Ndondo alighted from the mini bus and ran away was faked up? MR DANDALA Can you please explain? MR DUKADA The purpose, it was done deliberately when Ndondo was allowed to ran out of the mini bus, the purpose was to kill him and have a justification for the killing? MR DANDALA I can say the purpose was to stop him from running away. CHAIRPERSON What is being put to you is this. The police officers who were in the kombi deliberately allowed the deceased to escape out of the kombi so that they can thereafter shoot and kill him. What do you say to that? MR DANDALA No, he was not allowed to leave, he simply left out of his own. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. That is precisely ... [inaudible] Mr Dandala, Mr Ndondo was given an opportunity to run out of the mini bus and the purpose was to kill him as he was running away in order to justify the killing? MR DANDALA Nobody allowed him or told him to run away. MR DUKADA The purpose of, sorry the reason for shooting him in this manner as he was running away was to justify the killing? MR DANDALA No, I would not agree. MR DUKADA Mr Dandala, statements which were made indicate that Shosha had handcuffs, do you know about that? MR DANDALA No I did not see any handcuffs. MR DUKADA You never saw handcuffs? MR DANDALA No. MR DUKADA Just give me a second Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON You didn’t see a pocket knife, did you? MR DANDALA No I did not see any pocket knife. MR DUKADA Can you turn to Page 18 of the papers? You read Paragraph 3, only the first sentence of Paragraph 3. Can you read that sentence? The first sentence of Paragraph 3. Can you read that sentence please only? Not the entire paragraph. MR DANDALA "The informer approached us and I noticed a pocket knife in the left hand and handcuffs in the right hand." MR DUKADA Please Mr Dandala raise up your voice, people can’t hear you I’m sure. I have a difficulty even hearing you. Can you see there in your own statement you said the informer had a knife and handcuffs? MR DANDALA This is a statement that I made initially where it was said that a case should go in a certain manner because I didn’t even know whether Shosha was an informer or not. MR DUKADA Now this is the statement which you made to the police to be used in Courts? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And in the statement you made for purposes of applying for the amnesty you never mentioned that this statement was incorrect? MR DANDALA I never mentioned that. MR DUKADA Just one second Mr Chairperson. So it’s one of the portions which you say it was a cover up, the mentioning of handcuffs? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR DUKADA Can I ask you again, to what extent would that destroy the case? To simply mention that the informer had handcuffs? MR DANDALA I wouldn’t know because from the beginning I didn’t even know that she was an informer. MR DUKADA So you can’t explain why handcuffs are mentioned? MR DANDALA No I won’t be able to explain. MR DUKADA You see Mr Dandala, just tell me from, just look at your statement, tell the Committee which portion is true? MR DANDALA The affidavit. MR DUKADA Because time and again I gain the impression that everything you said there was a fabrication? MR DANDALA The affidavit is true. MR DUKADA Are you saying all what is contained in the statement in front of you is a fabrication? CHAIRPERSON No, he’s not saying that. He’s already told us that the portions that are read to him initially were correct. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. Can you turn to Page 21, 21 of the papers? That’s not the statements you made after the killing, the second sentence, in fact it’s the third sentence, where you say that, "We proceeded to the charge office again where our weapons were inspected by the same Lieutenant Gilele, thereafter we proceeded to Elliott where we met a white man, unknown to me who congratulated us and phoned Umtata." CHAIRPERSON What page are you reading? MR DUKADA 21 Mr Chairman. MR DANDALA Will you please repeat the. MR DUKADA Are you at Page 21 of the bundle? Mr Dandala, are you looking at Page 21 of the bundle? MR DANDALA Page 21, yes. MR DUKADA Yes, and if you skip the first two sentences, you start with the sentence which reads, "We proceeded", "We proceeded to the charge office again where our weapons were inspected by the same Lieutenant Gilele, thereafter we proceeded to Elliott where we met a white male unknown to me who congratulated us and phoned Umtata." MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA What was the congratulation for? MR DANDALA It was for what happened, the incident. MR DUKADA For having killed Mr Ndondo? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Did you question why you had been congratulated? MR DANDALA No I didn’t ask him. MR DUKADA Did you find it curious to enquire about congratulation? MR DANDALA I was not in a position to ask because I was still amazed, I couldn’t question him. MR DUKADA Yes but now that was long after the incident, you know, when you were congratulated? MR DANDALA I did not question. MR DUKADA You didn’t find it necessary to ask exactly what was this killing about? MR DANDALA ... [no English translation] MR DUKADA Did you not find it necessary to ask from the white gentleman exactly what was the killing about? MR DANDALA I didn’t talk to anybody at the time because I was still amazed. MR DUKADA There is also a statement, Mr Chairperson my Afrikaans is limping and my colleague if again having to quote his client incorrectly, he will correct me. There is a statement made by Mr Shabalala who has indicated that after the killing there was a braai. MR DANDALA There was no braai. CHAIRPERSON What page is that? MR DUKADA I’m just reading from a summary, it’s an Afrikaans version of a statement. I’m just reading from a summary which I have been given by a translator. You say you are not aware about a braai? MR DANDALA No. MR DUKADA But the statement you made to a policeman, the hand-written statement, you say you did not have a braai on that day? Exactly which day did you have a braai? MR DANDALA I was never in a braai with them. MR DUKADA Mr Dandala after this achievement when you were congratulated, you never even had some drinks at a pub or a celebration? MR DANDALA No not at all. MR DUKADA But it became very clear to you that it was a killing which made every policeman around you to be happy? Am I correct? MR DANDALA Do you mean among us? No. MR DUKADA No. In fact if I put it the other way, it was a killing which made the white gentleman you spoke to at Elliott to be happy? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And again despite that, you never, as a member of the underground unit, you never bothered to follow up this? To satisfy yourself why there was too much enthusiasm to kill Ndondo? MR DANDALA Are you referring to a policeman that welcomed us? MR DUKADA That is correct. MR DANDALA No I didn’t ask because when we left that place he phoned Umtata and we left immediately. We came to Umtata. MR DUKADA Now what I’m saying to you is that as a member of an underground unit in Transkei you were congratulated for having killed Ndondo. Did you not find it necessary to investigate exactly the nature of this killing? MR DANDALA I said from the beginning that I was still surprised there was nothing else that I uttered thereafter. MR DUKADA Are you still shocked today? MR DANDALA Even today I’m not happy about that. MR DUKADA Even today you are not interested to find out the nature of the killing? MR DANDALA Yes I am interested but I don’t feel good about it. MR DUKADA No, what I’m saying to you is that throughout your period as a member of the underground unit, you never bothered to convince yourself about the nature of the killing which deserved congratulations? MR DANDALA I never looked at it that way. MR DUKADA Do you regard Mr Dandala this killing as a political killing or an ordinary killing? MR DANDALA It was a political killing. MR DUKADA Political killing? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Yes and a killing which would definitely interest a member of an underground unit in Transkei? MR DANDALA Will you please repeat the question? MR DUKADA It is a political killing which would obviously attract the interest of any member of an underground unit in Transkei? MR DANDALA That’s correct sir. MR DUKADA And an ordinary member of that unit would investigate that killing to satisfy himself? MR DANDALA Yes a person would investigate and satisfy himself. MR DUKADA But in your case you did nothing? MR DANDALA I did not investigate because the people that I was with they had told me that he was a terrorist therefore I didn’t investigate anything. MR DUKADA Mr Chairperson I’m being reluctant to ask a very short adjournment but I’m just rounding up my cross examination of the witness so I would be happy to get a very short adjournment. CHAIRPERSON What for? MR DUKADA I just want to establish that I have covered all the aspects which ... [inaudible] from the family and the instructing attorneys about all the aspects. CHAIRPERSON Is that not the instructing attorney sitting next to you? MR DUKADA He is sitting next to me Mr Chairman but he is definitely not well informed about all the issues. There are other persons informed. CHAIRPERSON How much time do you need? MR DUKADA Fifteen minutes would be enough Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You can then resume your cross examination. Will that be a problem or do you have to, do we have to adjourn for fifteen minutes now? Or will you be content if the others continue and then at some point maybe you can take instructions and then resume your cross examination? MR DUKADA Mr Chairman I will be happy with the arrangement if other members of the Committee they take over and cross examine the witness. I say Mr Chairperson I will be happy with the arrangement you are proposing. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma do you have any problem with that arrangement? MR MAPOMA No sir I don’t have a problem with it. CHAIRPERSON If he is instructed to put further questions tomorrow, he can put those questions? MR MAPOMA Yes I agree. CHAIRPERSON Mr Knight do you have a problem with that? MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman I don’t. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hugo? MR HUGO I have no problem with that thank you. CHAIRPERSON Have you relevant questions now? ... [inaudible] proceed? MR DUKADA I have a few questions. May I just say this Mr Chairperson, I have a few questions to put to the witness but I wouldn’t like to close my cross examination without having consulted. CHAIRPERSON Yes we understand that. No, we understand that. I thought you were saying that ... [inaudible] in order to take instructions and then continue thereafter. If you have further questions then by all means. Yes by all means put whatever questions you have. MR DUKADA Mr Chairperson I must apologise to keep interfering with the mike. I’m not used to such a sophisticated mike. Mr Dandala, during the years, especially at 1984, there was, as I pointed out earlier to you a crises at the University of Transkei. Do you still remember? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And at that time, 1985, Paramount Chief K T Matanzima was due to retire as the State President, do you recall that? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And he was making speeches at various districts of the former Transkei? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR DUKADA And in the course of his speeches he was talking about communism and terrorism which was infiltrating Transkei, do you remember that? MR DANDALA No, I can’t remember that. MR DUKADA Now, but out of the speeches which the former State President was making he was voicing his anger about what was taking place in the country? MR DANDALA I won’t know that. As far as I am concerned. CHAIRPERSON What is it that you say you don’t know? MR DANDALA The fact that he was voicing his anger. CHAIRPERSON But did you have the occasion to listen to what he had to say? MR DANDALA Yes he was allowed, he could say that but about his anger I don’t know anything about that. CHAIRPERSON I’m not with you. Did you hear Mr Matanzima making speeches in regard to the situation in Transkei in general? MR DANDALA I used to hear him making his speeches. CHAIRPERSON Commenting on the situation in the Transkei? MR DANDALA The speech that I heard clearly, it was after the death of Batandwa. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. Now, the former State President that is K T Matanzima delivered a speech at Bizana where he indicated that black students who were agitating ... [inaudible] should be punished by a stick? MR DANDALA I didn’t hear that. MR DUKADA And thereafter police started panicking because they were worried about the politician who was exhorting them to assault students? MR DANDALA ... [no English translation] MR DUKADA You didn’t know about that? MR DANDALA No, I can’t remember. MR DUKADA And do you agree with me that out of the various speeches which were made by K T Matanzima in 1985 he was panicking about the wave of unrest in Transkei? MR DANDALA Yes I can agree with you if you put it that way. MR DUKADA And he used to call meetings time and again with the top management of the student branch in Transkei? MR DANDALA No I don’t know that. MR DUKADA Right let’s leave this aspect. You arrested Myapi in Bizana long after Ndondo had been killed? Sorry, Nzamele? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA You arrested? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA You had been instructed to go and arrest him? MR DANDALA No, there was no instruction given. He was spotted by one of the policemen who used to be my colleague. MR DUKADA And you went there to arrest him on your own? MR DANDALA We went there on our own. MR DUKADA It was you who effected the arrest? MR DANDALA No, there were three of us. MR DUKADA Now, but earlier on you said that it was not your duty to arrest. Your duty was to collect information? MR DANDALA I was no longer an underground policeman at the time. MR DUKADA When did you leave the underground security? MR DANDALA It was in 1985 but I can’t remember the date and the month but it was in 1985. MR DUKADA Why were you removed? MR DANDALA It was after Batandwa’s death I was removed. MR DUKADA I’m asking why were you removed from the unit because you had gathered some knowledge about, which was useful to the State about terrorists? MR DANDALA I think it was because of Batandwa’s death. MR DUKADA Yes but you had been earlier congratulated about the death of Ndondo. Why would you be removed now from the unit which had become useful? MR DANDALA We were congratulated in Elliott and I was removed in Transkei. MR DUKADA No, what I’m asking, why would you be removed, do you know the reasons? MR DANDALA No I don’t know the reasons but I can say it is because of Batandwa’s death. MR DUKADA Wana was one of the members of the unit. He killed Zolele Sangono who was accused of being a terrorist in Transkei, is that correct? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And he was also one of the members of the underground unit? MR DANDALA He was there but at the time he was no longer there. MR DUKADA Are you saying by the time he, but he was in the security branch? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Do you know Bigela? Bigela was also in your unit. MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR DUKADA Bigela killed Katula? MR DANDALA I don’t know that. MR DUKADA You don’t know that? MR DANDALA No I don’t know that. MR DUKADA You don’t know that Bigela killed an ANC cadre by the name of Katula, Leo Katula? MR DANDALA No. MR DUKADA Mr Chairman, so far as I say that I don’t want to inconvenience the Committee proceedings at all but if there is no other colleague who will be putting questions to the witness, I would be happy Mr Chairman if I am given a very short adjournment, just to consult with the family in case I have omitted any aspect in the matter. CHAIRPERSON I think we have about 25 minutes to go. I think we can usefully use this time to continue with the cross examination of the witness. If you have any questions arising from the consultation with the family members you may put those questions once you have instructions. You don’t have any questions at this stage? MR DUKADA Mr Chairman I don’t have any questions at all at this stage. NO FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR DUKADA CHAIRPERSON Very well. Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions? CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson, one or two. Mr Dandala, when you left from Barkly East for Xala, your instructions were to arrest Batandwa, you said so? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR MAPOMA And you were never instructed to kill Batandwa? MR DANDALA No. MR MAPOMA And you were never instructed to abduct Batandwa? MR DANDALA No. MR MAPOMA Now when you were in Xala at the Ntsebeza home, you did not introduce yourself to Batandwa as a policeman? MR DANDALA No. MR MAPOMA You did not even tell him that you are arresting him when you left with him? MR DANDALA No, we didn’t tell him. MR MAPOMA I suggest that you abducted him from the Ntsebeza home where he was and not arrested him? What do you say to that? MR DANDALA I thought that he was already arrested once he entered in the kombi and the kombi went up because I thought that the kombi was going straight to the charge office. MR MAPOMA But as a trained policeman, when you arrest a person, you know the procedure, that you tell the person instantly that he is under arrest now and you arrest that person. Isn’t that so? MR DANDALA That is correct but I didn’t know how do the other operate when they have reached the person. MR MAPOMA But you were the only Transkei police there and you were the only person who was accountable to the Transkei Government there, isn’t this so? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR MAPOMA Now, can you say that the Transkei Government which you were serving had a policy to kill the ANC terrorist at that time? MR DANDALA No. There was no such policy. MR MAPOMA Now can you say that when you were killing Batandwa Ndondo you were furthering the aims of the Transkei Government? MR DANDALA I can’t say that because from the beginning, when we left I didn’t get any instructions to kill. As far as I am concerned I was not willing to kill. MR MAPOMA You just killed by mistake? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR MAPOMA Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Wessels are there any questions that you want to put to this witness. ... [microphone problems] CHAIRPERSON I don’t want to pin you down to, are you going to be long in your cross examination? MR WESSELS I will restrict my questioning to. CHAIRPERSON Yes I would have thought so, ... [microphone problems] CHAIRPERSON Because I think at the very onset I should warn both of you and Mr Machokwene that you would have to confine your questions to matters affecting your client and also to the extent that these matters may be relevant. One doesn’t want to get involved in a situation where you re-open ...[inaudible] of issues. But I gather that you have no microphones there. Perhaps we should. Mr Dukada, this is what we propose doing. We propose affording you at least about ten minutes to fifteen minutes within which to consult with the family and then we will resume at 4 o’clock and then continue thereafter. Will that be okay with you? MR DUKADA Yes I’m satisfied Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. We will take a short adjournment and we will come back at 4 o’clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION GCINISIKO LAMONI DANDALA (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR DUKADA (cont) As I have indicated to you already that you said Shabalala removed the empty magazine, re-loaded and continued firing at Ndondo whilst he was still lying on the ground, do you remember that? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And you say Shabalala fired a number of shots at Ndondo whilst he was lying on the ground? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR DUKADA Now my question is, if the intention was to arrest, why did you not stop Shabalala? MR DANDALA I was not in a position to. MR DUKADA Yes but what I want to ask, what I’m asking you, why did you not stop him? MR DANDALA I didn’t manage because he was firing, I couldn’t stop him. CHAIRPERSON What do you mean by saying ... [inaudible], what’s that supposed to mean sir? MR DANDALA I mean that I didn’t utter a word trying to stop him. CHAIRPERSON I think what Counsel is trying to find out from you is this, the purpose of shooting at the deceased was to stop him from running away. Now he is shot at and he falls down, okay? And once he had fallen down he was no longer running away, do you understand that? Now it was not necessary to continue shooting the deceased at that stage. Do you understand that? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON But we understand from your evidence that Shabalala continued to fire further shots at the deceased as he was lying down. What Counsel wants to find out is why did you not, if your purpose was to stop the deceased from running away, why did you not stop Shabalala from shooting at the deceased after the deceased had fallen down? MR DANDALA They themselves, I was afraid of them. I didn’t trust them. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you may continue Mr Dukada thank you. MR DUKADA Thank you Mr Chairman. Are you saying that you didn’t trust the men you were working with? MR DANDALA Because from the beginning I realised that they were not policemen. They were people, ex MK members, that’s the reason why I couldn’t trust them. I was afraid of them. MR DUKADA But you had fired a shot already, indicating to them that you were working with them, approving what they were doing? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR DUKADA What would cause you now to not to trust them? MR DANDALA In that situation, the situation that was prevailing at the time I had no alternative because I couldn’t trust them anymore. MR DUKADA And you’ve already indicated that you had known nothing politically about Batandwa Ndondo before the day of the killing? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR DUKADA And all what you were simply told was that he was an ANC terrorist? MR DANDALA That’s correct. MR DUKADA And you never even made enquiries from the askaris or Colonel Booi or any person to convince yourself that Batandwa was a terrorist? MR DANDALA No I didn’t ask anybody. MR DUKADA And by the time Batandwa was killed, you had no reason to believe that Batandwa was a terrorist? MR DANDALA I believed in the sense that they talked about him and Shosha pointed at him and said, "he was the one". MR DUKADA You see the reason why you say the, if I understand what you are saying, the reason why you say the killing was political is because the askaris told you that Batandwa was a terrorist? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA And just one aspect Mr Chairperson. But according to my instructions, by the time Batandwa was killed Moss was already a member of the South African Police Force? MR DANDALA I didn’t know him. MR DUKADA Are you saying that you had no knowledge about the background of all the askaris at the time Batandwa was killed? MR DANDALA That’s correct sir. MR DUKADA You say, there’s a quotation which I read out to you before lunch. Where you say, "The Government of the day was fully appreciative of the operation." Can you explain that? MR DANDALA I can say so because of the things that the President said, the way he was talking. MR DUKADA In other words are you saying that even that before the killing, the Government of the day in Transkei was aware that Batandwa was going to be killed? MR DANDALA No I didn’t know that. MR DUKADA Yes but when you say that the Government of the day was fully appreciative of the operation, what do you mean? I take it the operation means the killing? MR DANDALA I am saying the way that the State President was talking he was indicating that the Government appreciated that. MR DUKADA No Mr Dandala, I’m not asking about that. I’m saying I’m just referring you to your sworn statement, where you say, "The Government of the day was fully appreciative of the operation." Do you agree with me that the word "operation", it means the killing? MR DANDALA Yes. MR DUKADA Do you also agree with me that the Government of the day had prior knowledge about the killing? The Government of the day had knowledge about the killing of Batandwa before he could even be killed? MR DANDALA No, I don’t know. MR DUKADA Mr Chairperson that’s all what I wanted to ask from the witness, thank you. NO FURTHER CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR DUKADA CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well thank you Mr Dukada. We propose adjourning at this stage so that the legal representatives on behalf of the implicated persons may commence their cross examination of Inspector Dandala tomorrow morning. We propose starting tomorrow at 9.30. Will that be convenient for you Mr Dukada? MR DUKADA The time will be convenient to me Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Yes sir, it will be convenient. CHAIRPERSON Mr Knight? MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman the time is convenient for me. CHAIRPERSON We will rise and we will resume the hearing tomorrow morning at 9.30 and would you make sure, legal representatives of the implicated person take their seats at a place where they can cross examine the witness because at the moment they don’t have microphones. MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson ... [inaudible]. MR DUKADA Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DUKADA Mr Chairperson, for record purposes may I indicate that the Deutshman, a newspaper cutting referred to earlier on, I shall be making it available tomorrow, copies of it. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you Mr Dukada. That being the case, shall we then rise until tomorrow morning at 9.30. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS