amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-06-18 UMTATA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52699&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98061719_umt_dandala2.htm CHAIRPERSON: When we adjourned yesterday the legal representatives of the implicated persons were about to commence cross-examining Mr Dandala. Mr Dandala may I remind you that you are still under oath to speak the truth. GCINISIKO LAMONI DANDALA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes. Would you please try and speak Sir. Yes very well. Have you gentlemen decided who is going to go first? MR WESSELS Thank you Mr Chairman I will be starting. CHAIRPERSON For the record Mr Wessels would you just indicate on whose behalf you are acting. MR WESSELS Thank you Mr Chairman I am representing General Kawe, the implicated person in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Wessels. MR WESSELS Thank you Mr Chairman. Inspector Dandala you would have noticed that General Kawe has been attending these proceedings and he is also presently in attendance. MR DANDALA That is correct. MR WESSELS Now I am representing General Kawe and I am instructed in this matter by my attorney, Mr Herbert. What I just want to mention to you is that our only interest in this matter is to deal with the evidence which you gave implicating General Kawe. We are not here to either support or oppose your amnesty application. Do you understand that. MR DANDALA I understand that. MR WESSELS Would you kindly refer to page 13 of the bundle of documents? What you have in front of you is part of your founding affidavit supporting your application for amnesty. That is page 13 of the documents. I am not hearing a reply. INTERPRETER There is no answer as yet. CHAIRPERSON You do have the bundle in front of you? MR DANDALA Yes I do have the bundle in front of me. MR WESSELS Thank you. Now as I understand your evidence what is contained in this founding affidavit is in fact the truth. MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR WESSELS On page 13 at paragraph 30, that is the very last paragraph it is stated "The Umtata head office instructed us to come back and we did so." Now just in the context this is now after the shooting incident and after you had reported to the gentleman there at Elliot. That is following that, that you state as is set out in paragraph 30. MR DANDALA Correct Sir, it was after the incident. MR WESSELS Now what is stated in paragraph 30 is that the truth? MR DANDALA Correct Dir. MR WESSELS Would you kindly turn to page 21 of the bundle of documents? This appears to be a typed statement by yourself. It is not the original document but it is a typed statement which is dated the 10th of May 1997. Do you agree? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. MR WESSELS And what is contained in this document, this statement which starts on page 19 to 21 is this also the truth? MR DANDALA As I have said yesterday the first statement there was a lot of cover-ups in the first statement. It does not look the same as the affidavit because of the cover-ups. Some of the things are written by hand and later typed and the typed thing would come with additions also including things that do not appear there. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dandala please confine yourself to the question that you are being asked. What Mr Wessels is asking you about it is the statement which appears at pages 19 through to 21 which is dated the 10th of May 1997. Do you understand that? Do you see that statement? It commences at page 19 and it goes all the way to page 21. Do you see this? MR DANDALA Yes I do. CHAIRPERSON Do you recognise that statement? MR DANDALA I do know it Sir. CHAIRPERSON Does that statement set out the truth? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. MR WESSELS Thank you Mr Chairman. Now in particular on page 21 of the bundle of documents the 7th line from the top it is stated "Umtata head office instructed us to come to them and we did so." Do you have that reference? MR DANDALA I do see it Sir. MR WESSELS Is that also the truth? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR WESSELS Will you then kindly page to page 38 of the bundle of documents? What you have before you now is the handwritten statement taken down by the Special Investigating Officer that is Inspector Jordaan to whom I presume you also told the truth. MR DANDALA I do see it Sir. CHAIRPERSON Wait a minute. What do you say to what Mr Wessels is saying? That is he presume that you told Mr Jordaan the truth? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR WESSELS Thank you Mr Chairman. Now if you look at page 38 you will see that there are two endorsements on the left hand margin indicating an initial. You see those two initials on the left hand margin? MR DANDALA I see them Sir. MR WESSELS Now below the bottom initial, about two, three lines below that one there is a sentence which reads "After Bra Mos spoke to the short heavily white man at Elliot Security Branch he came to us and told us that Umtata's head office of the security branch was needing us in Umtata." Do you see that? MR DANDALA I do see it Sir. MR WESSELS Is that also the truth? MR DANDALA Yes Sir. MR WESSELS So we have now, I have now referred you to three statements setting out the fact that Umtata head office called you back. Do you agree with that? MR DANDALA Yes Sir. MR WESSELS Your evidence in this proceedings was that it was General Kawe that instructed you to come back. Do you recall that evidence that you gave? MR DANDALA I do remember that Sir. MR WESSELS You will agree with me that the version that General Kawe instructed you to come back is not the same as is set out in those three statements that I referred you to? MR DANDALA One thing is that the head office of security was General Kawe and it is he who then instructed that we return back to Umtata. MR WESSELS Is this only an assumption that you are making or is it in fact the situation that it was General Kawe that instructed you to return to Umtata? MR DANDALA It was General Kawe. CHAIRPERSON I think what he is highlighting Mr Wessels is that General Kawe was the head of the security branch in Umtata. MR DANDALA Yes. MR WESSELS Thank you Mr Chairman. But Mr Dandala why then if it was in fact General Kawe that instructed you to return, why then did you decide in three statements not to mention his name as the one that asked you to return but just referred to Umtata head office? Do you understand the point I am making? MR DANDALA I hear you Sir. As the person who was heading the security section and the instruction coming from him that we must return. Clearly I did not mention him in the statement but what I meant when I said that the head office had said we must return I meant it was he who did that. MR WESSELS You are not suggesting that it was General Kawe that spoke to you personally in instructing or conveying this instruction that you must return to head office? MR DANDALA No he did not talk to me directly. He referred to the office of Elliot and we then got from Elliot that he had said we must return to Umtata. MR WESSELS So bearing that in mind you will agree with me that your assumption that it was General Kawe that instructed you to return could be wrong? It could have been somebody else? MR DANDALA It cannot be somebody else because we were told clearly that it was he who had said that we must return. MR WESSELS Let us proceed with your evidence about when you arrived at Umtata head office, the security branch at Umtata. Who did you meet with? MR DANDALA I met Colonel Booi. MR WESSELS And what happened after you met Colonel Booi at Umtata? MR DANDALA Are you talking about the 24th? MR WESSELS That is on the day after the shooting incident that occurred. MR DANDALA I met Colonel Booi at his office. MR WESSELS What happened when you met Colonel Booi at his office? MR DANDALA General Kawe came to Colonel Booi's office and he said me and Bra Mos must make statements. MR WESSELS Is that all that happened? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. MR WESSELS Would you kindly turn to page 38 of the bundle of documents? About the 6th line from the bottom. The sentence reads as follows "On our arrival at the Umtata head office security branch Colonel Booi took us to General Kawe." Do you have that reference? MR DANDALA I see Sir. MR WESSELS It does not state there that General Kawe came to Colonel Booi's office as you have now explained. MR DANDALA When we arrived we went to Colonel Booi's office. General Kawe came to the office of Colonel Booi and he then say I and Bra Mos must make statements. We then proceeded making those statements. We then moved from that office to General Kawe's office. MR WESSELS Very well. Regarding the making of the statements is it your evidence that only you and Bra Mos were instructed to make statements? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. MR WESSELS Now I don't want to play with words but was the instruction that only the two of you must make statements and not the others or was the instruction that the two of you must make statements? Do you understand the emphasis that I am drawing between the two versions that I am putting to you? MR DANDALA I would like the question to be repeated please? MR WESSELS Is it your evidence that the instruction was that only - and let's underline only, that only you and Bra Mos must make statements and not the others? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. I am certain Sir. MR WESSELS Did anybody tell the other two persons not to make statements? That is Shosha and Shabalala. MR DANDALA I do not remember and I did not get to hear anything about them. MR WESSELS Were all four of you in General Kawe's presence at Umtata or was it just yourself in the presence of General Kawe? MR DANDALA It was myself and Bra Mos. MR WESSELS And why was it necessary for only you and Bra Mos to make the statements? MR DANDALA We were told that it was in preparation of the case so that it cannot fly - to destroy the case that is. MR WESSELS This reference to the destroying of the case was that mentioned by General Kawe? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. Just to go on to refer. After we made those statements we were then told that it is only me and Shabalala who were supposed to accept being charged. All of that in preparation for destroying that case. MR WESSELS Well let us now not confuse the issue. There were two incidents. The first report, the first appearance there with General Kawe that you referred to and then after a couple of days when you were called again. Do you remember that? MR DANDALA Yes I do remember that. MR WESSELS Now I am presently dealing with the first visit to General Kawe when you were instructed as you say that only you and Bra Mos were to make statements. At that stage, on that occasion, that first occasion was there talk of the destroying of the case? MR DANDALA Yes there was talk. MR WESSELS By General Kawe, is that your evidence? MR DANDALA Yes Sir. MR WESSELS Was there talk at the second visit to General Kawe's office of the destroying of the case? MR DANDALA Even when we were at the office of Colonel Booi it started there when we arrived. MR WESSELS Just listen to what I am asking you. You have explained to us now that on your first visit to General Kawe's office there was talk about the destroying of the case. What I am asking you is was there talk of the destroying of the case at your second visit? This is after a few days at your second visit to General Kawe's office? MR DANDALA Yes there was, even from when we first arrived. Even at the second occasion he did. MR WESSELS Let us then just look at your founding affidavit and I will ask you to turn to page 14 of the bundle of documents at paragraph 31. Do you have that in front of you? MR DANDALA Yes. MR WESSELS Paragraph 31 reads that "General Kawe, who was the head of the security branch instructed that only myself and Bra Mos should make statements concerning the incident." MR DANDALA I see it Sir. MR WESSELS And then paragraph 32 deals with the second visit. Do you see that? MR DANDALA I do Sir. MR WESSELS In other words in paragraph 31 dealing with the first visit there is no reference there of destroying the case. Do you agree with me? MR DANDALA It does refer to that in the sense that he said it is only me and Bra Mos who are supposed to make statements. And yet we were four operatives at the incident. MR WESSELS I understand what you are saying but what I am pointing out to you is that in paragraph 31 you describe the first visit to General Kawe and nowhere in paragraph 31 do you make any mention of the fact that it was said by General Kawe that the statements must be made so that the case can be destroyed. Do you see that? MR DANDALA As far as I am concerned this is very clear that when he said statements must be made by myself and Bra Mos and yet we were four it shows. MR WESSELS I propose labouring that point further. Let us deal with the command structure as it was in 1984 at head office Umtata. Who was Colonel Booi's supervisor? MR DANDALA General Kawe. MR WESSELS Was there not somebody in between? MR DANDALA There were people in between. MR WESSELS Give me their names? MR DANDALA General Damooi, Brigadier Tamsanye. MR WESSELS General Damooi at that stage still a brigadier? MR DANDALA Yes he was a brigadier at the time. MR WESSELS Did you report to Brigadier Damooi on your return to Umtata after the shooting incident? MR DANDALA No we go to Colonel Booi. MR WESSELS Would you please turn to page 18 of the bundle of documents? This is part of the cover-up statement if we can refer to it as that. Do you agree? Page 17 and 18 is part of the so-called cover-up statement? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR WESSELS Now on page 18 the second last paragraph the last sentence of the second last paragraph reads "We then returned to Umtata and reported the matter to Brigadier Damooi." Do you see that? MR DANDALA Yes I do see that. MR WESSELS Was that the truth? MR DANDALA No Sir we got to Colonel Booi. MR WESSELS Why does that reference to the reporting to Brigadier Damooi appear in that statement? MR DANDALA As I have said so before that this statement was written more as a statement to cover up the truth and some of the things were added that were added even without my knowledge departing from the statement that may have been written by hand. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dandala if you had reported to Colonel Booi upon your return to Umtata do you know what were the reasons for suggesting that you reported to Brigadier Damooi when in fact you didn't report to him? What would be the purpose of saying you reported to Brigadier Damooi instead of Colonel Booi? Do you know what would be the reason for that? MR DANDALA I do not understand why such a thing would be written as from even the beginning I never made a mistake of saying that we were reporting to Brigadier Damooi. CHAIRPERSON Did you read this statement before you signed it? MR DANDALA I did read it Sir. CHAIRPERSON Did you query anything in this statement? MR DANDALA No I did not query anything because it was explained to me that this statement is written as a cover-up. CHAIRPERSON To understand is in your mind what was supposed to be covered by suggesting that you reported to Brigadier Damooi when in fact you had reported to Colonel Booi? I mean what was there to cover that? Because you reported to Colonel Booi. I mean what difference does it make do you know? MR DANDALA No I do not know. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you Mr Wessels. MR WESSELS Thank you Mr Chairman. The statements that you and Bra Mos then prepared according to the instructions of General Kawe did those statements contain the truth? MR DANDALA No Sir. MR WESSELS Well then I am afraid you must help me with what is contained on page 39 of the bundle of documents. You could possibly just look at the last sentence at page 38 of the documents which reads "General Kawe told us to make statements," and then it continues; "Bra Mos and I were the only ones to make statements. We wrote the statements ourselves. Bra Mos assisted me in making a statement. I think I told the truth." Do you see that? MR DANDALA I see it Sir. MR WESSELS Could you explain that in the light of the evidence that you have testified to? MR DANDALA At the office of Colonel Booi it was me and Bra Mos. We were told to make statements. We then did so in that office helping each other from time to time. MR WESSELS Are you finished? MR DANDALA Yes Sir. MR WESSELS The answer that I am waiting for is it is your evidence that those statements that you wrote were not the truth. That was your evidence that you gave before the Committee. Now I refer you to what is contained on page 39 of your statement where you say that: "I think I told the truth." Now this you said to the police investigating officer. Could you explain that please? MR DANDALA I say so that I said I spoke the truth because truly the statements were written by me and Bra Mos. CHAIRPERSON Are you referring to the so-called cover-up statement - for want of a better word? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON So is it your evidence that when you made that statement you were telling the truth? MR DANDALA The one of the cover-up? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DANDALA The truth was that it was I and Bra Mos who were told to make statements. CHAIRPERSON You see I think what counsel is drawing your attention to is the statement that you made which occurs at page 39, this is now the statement that you made to Mr Jordaan I think it is. In which you said after stating that General Kawe told you and Bra Mos to make a statement and that you were the only ones who were required to make statements and then you then continued and then you say: "We wrote the statements ourselves." That is now referring to yourself and Bra Mos. MR DANDALA That is so Sir. CHAIRPERSON Okay and then you went on to say: "Bra Mos assisted me in making a statement." And then you added: "I think I told the truth." MR DANDALA That is so Sir. CHAIRPERSON That is in the statement which you wrote out yourself? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir but. CHAIRPERSON Is that the statement that has now been described as being a cover-up statement? MR DANDALA It is the same Sir. It returned having had additions that did not appear in the ones where we had made the writing using our own hand. CHAIRPERSON Is the position that assisted by Bra Mos you wrote out a statement describing what had occurred in your own handwriting? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON And then you handed in that handwritten statement for typing? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON When the statement was returned to you it contained statements which you had not made? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON And you did not query that? MR DANDALA No I did not query that because we were told that this statement was to be a cover-up. CHAIRPERSON When were you told that? Were you told before you wrote the statement or after you were given the statement? MR DANDALA It was after we had written the statement. Even before we were told it was only me and Bra Mos who were supposed to write statements. And in the attempt to cover the whole case. CHAIRPERSON But you spoke the truth in the statement that you wrote? MR DANDALA In the statement I wrote using my own handwriting I have written the truth. CHAIRPERSON It contained cover-up material? MR DANDALA The cover-up one was coming with additions yes. MR WESSELS Thank you Mr Chairman. So just to understand what the Chairman dealt with here. This statement that you wrote which you handed in for typing which was later returned to you in the typewritten form was then this statement which is part of the documents filed as pages 17 and 18. That is the one that was returned to you after it had been typed? MR DANDALA That is the statement Sir. MR WESSELS So when you initially wrote that statement before it was handed in for typing you told the truth in that statement? MR DANDALA As far as I am concerned I told the truth but it came with some other things that were there because they said that information is for cover up in order to destroy the case. MR WESSELS Just to make one point very clear. On your version when you were instructed by General Kawe to make a statement, to write a statement he did not instruct you to make a false statement? MR DANDALA He never said that. He never said I must make a false statement. MR WESSELS On your version it was his instruction write a statement, you did so and you wrote the truth? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR WESSELS In your evidence when you said that General Kawe did not assist in the drafting of this false statement you added to this that maybe he had knowledge but you will agree with me that the converse could also be true? That is maybe he did not have knowledge. MR DANDALA Will you please repeat the question Sir? MR WESSELS When you testified that General Kawe did not assist you in drafting this false statement. Do you remember that evidence you gave? You said he did not assist. Do you remember that? MR DANDALA Yes I can remember that. MR WESSELS But when you were asked about this you said maybe he had knowledge of this false statement. Do you remember that? MR DANDALA Yes I remember Sir. MR WESSELS You will agree with me that when you say maybe General Kawe had knowledge that you are merely speculating? MR DANDALA Will you please repeat that question Sir? MR WESSELS You will agree with me that when you say the maybe General Kawe had knowledge of this false statement that you are merely speculating? MR DANDALA I can explain like this. I think he had knowledge about this false statement because the words of cover-up were coming directly from him. The intention of that statement is to cover up this situation and the fact that it is only myself and Bra Mos to make a statement. MR WESSELS Inspector Dandala let me just remind you when you say that only you and Bra Mos were told to make statements that it was your evidence that you did not hear them instructing the others to make statements. Do you remember that? MR DANDALA Yes I didn't hear any one instructing the others to make statements except that it was myself and Bra Mos. MR WESSELS So maybe the others may well have been asked to make statements. You just did not hear. MR DANDALA Will you please repeat the question Sir? MR WESSELS I say maybe the others were asked to make statements. That you just did not hear because it is your evidence that you did not hear them instructing the others to make statements. MR DANDALA Yes I didn't hear anybody instructing the others to make statements because in the office it was only myself and Bra Mos. CHAIRPERSON Mr Wessels if I may know what is the version of General Kawe on these matters that you are cross-examining Mr Dandala on? I mean did he give instructions that only the applicant and Bra Mos should make the statement? MR WESSELS I was about to get to that stage where I will be putting General Kawe's version. I am just trying to understand what the applicant's version is before I deal with that Mr Chairman. My instructions from General Kawe regarding this matter is that he never spoke to you personally on your return after the shooting incident. Do you hear what I am saying? MR DANDALA Yes I hear what you saying. He spoke to me for the first time in Colonel Booi's office and after that we were taken to his office. MR WESSELS He will say if it becomes necessary for him to testify that he gave no such instructions as you claim that it was only you and Bra Mos that had to make statements. MR DANDALA All I know is that it was only myself and Bra Mos in the office and he said only myself and Bra Mos who should make statements. MR WESSELS And Colonel Kawe will also deny that there was any suggestion of a case being destroyed or of a cover-up. MR DANDALA I wouldn't say that he said I must make statements myself and Bra Mos and then come back again and say it was only myself and Shabalala who was charged whereas nobody ever said that. MR WESSELS I must put it to you directly that General Kawe will deny that he was ever party to the cover-up of anything that had to do with the deceased death in this matter. MR DANDALA If he denies that, that is his own business I didn't know that but all I know is that he said only myself and Bra Mos should make statements in order to destroy the case. And he further called me to his office and he said to me only myself and Shabalala would be charged whereas Shabalala never made any statement. Even there he said the intention of this was to destroy the case. MR WESSELS Regarding your appearance in the court did you appear directly for the first time in the Supreme Court without going through the process of first appearing in the Magistrate's Court? MR DANDALA I went straight to the Supreme Court. MR WESSELS Now you will know as a policeman that for a policeman to be charged it is a decision taken by the Attorney General. Are you aware of that? MR DANDALA Yes I am very much aware of that. MR WESSELS And you will accept that once you had been charged and your case was before the courts your matter was then in the hands of the Attorney General. MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR WESSELS Will you also accept that under those circumstances General Kawe would have had no control over what may or may not have happened to you in the court process? MR DANDALA What surprised me was that I rushed straight to the Supreme Court without going first to the Magistrate's Court in the hands of the Attorney General. All that indicates that there was a cover-up. MR WESSELS Are you suggesting that even the Attorney General was part of this cover-up MR DANDALA I won't know that Sir. MR WESSELS Just one last matter that I want to touch on. I am not going to labour this aspect but an issue was made of the so-called underground unit. It is your evidence that General Kawe was aware of this unit? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR WESSELS I have discussed this matter and I have taken instructions in this regard. My instructions from General Kawe is that there was no such unit as an underground unit described by yourself. MR DANDALA Sir there are other people that was in the underground unit who can support that statement that there was an underground unit. MR WESSELS It is not in dispute that various field officers from the security branch may have adopted different tactics in gathering information but the formation of an underground unit as you described it, a special unit that is specifically denied by General Kawe. MR DANDALA I don't know what he means if he denies that there was an underground unit because Mr Colonel Booi's office wasn't the head office. That is the office where we were reporting and he was sitting there with him. They were all together in the head office. MR WESSELS I want to suggest to you that there are possibly two explanations for this so-called underground unit. Firstly that you were acting under the misconception that you were part of a so-called underground group whereas in truth and in fact you were not part of such a group. That is the one possibility I am putting to you. Do you wish to comment on that? MR DANDALA I said there is a group of people that I was working with in that underground unit who can also support that there was an underground unit and I was also part of that unit. MR WESSELS The other possibility that I am putting to you although this is a remote possibility a most improbable possibility and that is that your unit if there was such a unit was operating so clandestinely that not even the commander of the security branch is aware of that. And that is ridiculous. Would you agree? MR DANDALA Colonel Booi, who was our head he knows about it. MR WESSELS I want to suggest to you that your knowledge as it was possibly aptly described here as being shallow dealing when it came to important political matters speaks for itself that you could not have been part of a special underground unit. MR DANDALA I won't deny that but I was working for the underground unit. There is some information to support that. MR WESSELS Mr Chairman would you just bear with me a moment please? Thank you Mr Chairman that is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR WESSELS . CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Wessels. Yes Mr Matuweni? MR MATUWENI Thank you Mr Chairman. Inspector Dandala similarly I am representing Colonel Booi and General Nkalitshana. I am neither supporting nor preventing or opposing your application. I am only going to cross-examine you regarding Colonel Booi whom you have mentioned in your evidence. Could I refer you to the bundle 17 to 18. At the time you made this statement there was no thought of amnesty. Is that correct? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR MATUWENI The only think that could save your skin would be if you could allege that your shooting of Batandwa Ndondo was lawful in that he was escaping from a lawful arrest? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR MATUWENI Is it then correct to assume that the other ... is the picture. Isn't that correct? MR DANDALA Are you talking about the affidavit? MR MATUWENI Yes the affidavit itself. MR DANDALA In the affidavit it is exactly what happened. That is the truth. But in the first statement there are some distortions that were meant to cover up the situation, to destroy the case. MR MATUWENI It is not clear how the case would be destroyed by you being in fact charged and making a statement admitting the shooting. How would the case be destroyed? MR DANDALA I don't know Sir how do they come up with that but it is what they said that they intend to destroy the case but I don't know in which manner. Perhaps that is why they said that myself and Bra Mos should make statements and they end up saying that myself and Shabalala should be charged. MR MATUWENI You came up with the name of Colonel Booi as a person who assisted you in making your statement. Only when you were cross-examined here yesterday you didn't mention that in your examination in chief. Isn't that correct? MR DANDALA That is so. I said there were other suggestions from other people that even if I am making statement I mustn't implicate the others because when they come back they will come back to me they might attack me. MR MATUWENI Who did you in fact save by not mentioning in your statement because you seemed to have mentioned four of you? MR DANDALA I mentioned the four of them in my statement. MR MATUWENI Then could you explain what you mean by saying that you would save others by not mentioning them if you have mentioned all four? How would they be saved? MR DANDALA I won't be able to explain but I did mention them. But I am saying there were suggestions that when I am making my statement I must not implicate them. MR MATUWENI Is it correct that you claimed yesterday you were advised by a number of persons some of whom you no longer remember by name? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR MATUWENI Would you be able to say about how many advised you to make this statement? MR DANDALA I wouldn't be able to say so. MR MATUWENI Would you be able to say which advice you followed of these many people who advised you? MR DANDALA I won't be able to say Sir. MR MATUWENI Colonel Booi will deny that he advised you in any way in making your statement. MR DANDALA If he denies that I don't know. MR MATUWENI Are you afraid of Colonel Booi? MR DANDALA No I am not afraid of him. MR MATUWENI What surprises me is that you were bold enough to mention the head of the security, General Kawe whom I would have expected you would be scared to mention and you then left out Colonel Booi in your evidence in chief. It was only after cross-examination that you mentioned his name. MR DANDALA Will you please repeat the question? MR MATUWENI What I am saying is I would have expected that you would be scared to mention the head of the security who was in a much higher position. But you were not scare to mention General Kawe as the person who tried to cover up and General Booi's name only came at cross-examination stage. How is that? MR DANDALA I don't think there is anything that I would be afraid to say or maybe there would be a person that I would be afraid to mention his name. MR MATUWENI I would put it to you that you are falsely implicating General Booi. He never assisted you. Hence you didn't mention his name in your application for amnesty. MR DANDALA Colonel Booi was my superior. Normally you discuss with the person who is your superior. In cases like this he would give some suggestions to ensure that the case is destroyed to prepare the case for the court. CHAIRPERSON Mr Matuweni when you put it to the witness that he never mentioned Colonel Booi in his application for amnesty you have got to be specific because as far as I recall he mentioned Colonel Booi as being a person who called him I think in about September 1995 I think it was and assigned him to the duties in Barkley where he was supposed to go and assist the South African security branch. I mean that occurs at page 8 paragraph 9 of the bundle. So perhaps you would have to indicate the context in which he omitted to mention him. MR MATUWENI Sorry Mr Chairman no I take your point. Perhaps I should have been more specific. I was actually referring to the area of the cover. In your application for amnesty you mentioned that there was a cover-up and you mention specifically General Kawe. Is that correct? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR MATUWENI Is there any reason why you didn't mention Colonel Booi at that stage if he indeed was involved in any way in the cover-up? MR DANDALA I won't say so. MR MATUWENI Why didn't you mention his name if that was the case? MR DANDALA The person who called me to his office was General Kawe when he was telling me that I was to be charged, myself and Shabalala in order to destroy the case. And even by the time when we arrived he said only myself and Bra Mos who must make the statements. MR MATUWENI I will put it to you that you are twisting the situation in order to fit your application within the amnesty situation. That what you are saying in implicating General Booi is not in fact correct. MR DANDALA Colonel Booi was my superior where I was working. That alone I am not implicating him. He knows that. MR MATUWENI On page 18 of your statement you mention that you reported the matter to Brigadier Damooi. What was the value of that if that was not the truth? Why did you say you reported to Brigadier Damooi? MR DANDALA I don't remember that concerning Brigadier Damooi. MR MATUWENI Could you turn to page 18. I think you have been referred to this before. The second last paragraph, at the end there. You said, the last sentence "We then returned to Umtata and reported the matter to Brigadier Damooi." MR DANDALA I see that. MR MATUWENI Could you explain why then you reported to Brigadier Damooi and not your supervisor? MR DANDALA It is what I don't know. Only Colonel Booi whom I went to. MR MATUWENI Colonel Booi will deny that (...intervention) CHAIRPERSON I beg your pardon Mr Matuweni. Is the position that in the statement, in the handwritten statement you had written that you returned to Umtata and reported the matter to Colonel Booi? MR DANDALA Colonel Booi. CHAIRPERSON That is what you said in your statement? MR DANDALA I think so Sir because I don't remember General Damooi. CHAIRPERSON Let's understand that when the statement was returned to you after it had been typed it now contained Brigadier Damooi. MR DANDALA (... no English translation) CHAIRPERSON Well is that what happened? I am trying to find out. MR DANDALA I can't remember if I saw that at the time but I can see it now. CHAIRPERSON You see what I want to find out is in the handwritten statement that you wrote out yourself you had written that you reported the matter to Colonel Booi. MR DANDALA I am sure that he is the person that I talked to in the office. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) for one moment about. What I am asking you is in the statement that you wrote out in your own handwriting you had written: "We returned to Umtata and reported the matter to Colonel Booi." MR DANDALA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON When this statement was returned to you after it had been typed it now had a reference to Brigadier Damooi. MR DANDALA I just saw that now. I don't remember if I did see it before but now I can see it. I don't remember seeing it before. CHAIRPERSON I see so when you read the statement then before signing it you didn't notice that? MR DANDALA No Sir. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MATUWENI My learned friend had referred you to the same paragraph in cross-examination and you didn't speculate as you are now saying that it is probable that in your handwritten statement you had written Colonel Damooi. Why is that? You had two opportunities to explain this away? MR DANDALA Will you please repeat that question Sir? MR MATUWENI I am saying that my learned friend here Mr Wessels referred you to this specifically to your reporting to General Damooi. I have also referred you to it. But now it seems you are saying it is probable that you had in your written statement entered Colonel Booi and not Brigadier Damooi. MR DANDALA My answer was this, Brigadier Damooi I never saw him. The person that I mentioned was Colonel Booi. I wouldn't mention Brigadier Damooi if I didn't meet him. MR MATUWENI I must leave that point. I am going to refer to the question of this underground security. Colonel Booi will deny that there was a formal unit known as underground security but there was a situation where a few of the security people would be allowed not to present themselves as police officers in order that they be not known by the general police force. But that it was not a special unit that was formally created. Would you agree with that? MR DANDALA I disagree with him because in that unit he was our superior. I first said there are other people who can prove that. The people that I was working with. CHAIRPERSON Mr Matuweni is what you are putting to the witness that there was for want of a better word what one may describe as being an informal underground well, undercover group which operated on an undercover basis just like he described in his evidence but that it was not a formal structure? MR MATUWENI What I was putting to you is that he will not necessarily deny that you had acted in that capacity but that it was not a formal structure. Are you denying that? MR DANDALA If it was not a formal structure I won't know. But all I know is that there was an underground security unit. MR MATUWENI Did you get a letter of appointment formally appointing you to this unit? MR DANDALA No I never received that. MR MATUWENI Colonel Booi will deny that he assisted you in any way in making or in trying to cover up anything. And that in fact you were formally charged. MR DANDALA I said he gave suggestions like the others were giving suggestions. MR MATUWENI Could you spare a moment? I put it to you that you are attempting to fit your application within the now present amnesty situation otherwise your act was purely criminal. MR DANDALA Please explain that to me Sir? MR MATUWENI I put it this way. That you are formally charged with murder. That is a criminal act. Isn't that correct? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR MATUWENI And the statement you made at the time in order to avoid that murder charge was that you were trying to prevent the deceased from escaping. MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR MATUWENI So I am putting it to you now that you are dragging in cover-ups in order to fit your application within the amnesty situation. MR DANDALA I disagree with that Sir if you put it that way. MR MATUWENI Thank you Mr Chairman. I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MATUWENI . CHAIRPERSON Very well thank you. Mr Dilizo do you have any re-examination? MR DILIZO Yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Yes go ahead. RE-EXAMINATION BY MR DILIZO MR DILIZO Mr Dandala during your cross-examination a number of issues were raised. Firstly you have stated under cross-examination that you were five members who were forming the underground unit. Do you remember? MR DANDALA I remember that Sir. MR DILIZO Was that unit of five members responsible for the entire Transkei then? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. The entire Transkei. MR DILIZO You say you were therefore adequately sufficient to gather the underground information being five for the entire Transkei? MR DANDALA We were not sufficient for the entire Transkei. MR DILIZO As you were five did you have any transport? MR DANDALA We had only one car for the five of us. And even that car was not enough for the work to be performed in Transkei. MR DILIZO Would that perhaps affect your extent of becoming informed of the underground situation in Transkei or not? MR DANDALA Please repeat your question? MR DILIZO The fact that you were five for the entire Transkei with one transport would it have any bearing to the extent of you gathering sufficient information about the underground activities in Transkei? MR DANDALA As I have already said that we were only a few of us and we had only one transport. We were unable to get some of the information. We would get the information later because we were few and we didn't have transport. MR DILIZO Would you know how the information or the underground activity or political activity information would be brought to the attention of the politicians in Transkei? MR DANDALA I wouldn't know that because we were not the only people in Transkei. There were also people from the Intelligence Services who would also bring some information to the government. MR DILIZO This intelligence you are talking about was it also a part of the security branch here in Transkei? MR DANDALA Yes it was part of it because I am sure they were also gathering information and passed that information to their superiors. MR DILIZO Was it responsible to the security branch? MR DANDALA It was not part of the security branch but they were doing the same job as the security branch. MR DILIZO That is? MR DANDALA I can say to pass the information to the authorities. It wouldn't only be the security branch to do that job. Even the intelligence services people from that branch would pass that information to the authorities. MR DILIZO And now this question of you, a Transkeian policeman accompanying the SA police coming into Transkei do you know what was the purpose for that? MR DANDALA I can say the purpose was that when they come to work in Transkei they must not be known that they are coming from the Republic of South Africa. Therefore they were obliged to go to the offices in Transkei to get Transkeian police so that if there is a need to arrest some one sometimes the police from Transkei would go with those police from the Republic to go and arrest that person. Or the Transkeian police would arrest that person and hand him over to the Republican police. MR DILIZO In the event of the Transkeian police handing over the arrested person from the Transkei were you informed what would happen to that person who was handed over to the SAP? MR DANDALA No we wouldn't be told. MR DILIZO You were also questioned about - Mr Chairman I am referring to page 15 of the record paragraph 38 which reads as follows "Could the operation which resulted in the killing of Batandwa was done at the instance and in the interest of the government of the then Republic of Transkei and I was acting in the cause and the scope of my employment of the department of police of the said government. The government of the day was fully appreciative of the operation." What do you mean by this? Could you please explain this to us? What does that mean? MR DANDALA I can say maybe the authorities knew about this. Although we were not told about anything. In the sense that the State President himself uttered something about the death of Batandwa and the fact that when we arrived in Elliot we were congratulated. It shows that perhaps they met though we were not aware of that situation. MR DILIZO Let's talk about this congratulations by the Lieutenant at Barkley East. What was your impression out of that congratulation? What did you make out with regard to the attitude of that lieutenant concerning the death of Batandwa? MR DANDALA I could see that he was happy. And I also realised that by congratulating us that was not the end. It could happen that, that was the mood of the authorities. The government itself appreciated the death of the terrorist. MR DILIZO You say the impression that you gained out of that congratulation was for his personal interest on behalf of the security police or the government? MR DANDALA I think it was done on behalf of the government at that time. MR DILIZO With regard to the utterances uttered by the (...indistinct) Matanzima what did you make out concerning the death of Batandwa? MR DANDALA I can say he was happy about that. Because I want to say perhaps these governments they were meeting each other because the way he was talking, the manner in which he was talking I think he was happy for that. And he was happy because of the death of the terrorist. MR DILIZO (...indistinct) perhaps the government on top like the former State President was aware and appreciating any killing of a terrorist in Transkei without you being aware perhaps of being used? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. I can say perhaps he was aware although we were not aware of that. MR DILIZO Now with regard to the question of cover-ups who would add the unknown or false information or deduct the correct information from the statements you have made? Do you know. MR DANDALA I am not in a position to say so. But all I can say even in this document there is a statement, Shabalala's statement that was made and his legal representative said he is going to deny that he made this statement because he didn't sign the statement saying that he doesn't know anything about that statement. MR DILIZO Would you be a party to the change or alteration to the contents of the statement you had initially made or not a party? MR DANDALA No. MR DILIZO So now when subsequently finding an already typed statement with some information which is not within your knowledge would you sign that statement or would you query it? MR DANDALA I wouldn't query it Sir because they said they were trying to destroy the case about some of the information. MR DILIZO You mean you would sign the statement even if the contents thereof are not the correct version? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR DILIZO As a person who was attached to the security and also involved in the underground unit, what was terrorism? Was it a criminal offence or not in Transkei? MR DANDALA It was not a criminal offence. In the sense that I take as if a person who leaves the country with the aim of acquiring some training at the same time that becomes and offence. That becomes an offence immediately. MR DILIZO I thought you say it was not an offence - terrorism per se was not an offence. MR DANDALA I am saying terrorism. Once a person leaves the country with the aim of getting some training that becomes an offence. MR DILIZO Do you mean not a criminal offence? MR DANDALA Not a criminal offence. MR DILIZO What do you mean political offence or what? MR DANDALA Political offence. MR DILIZO You mean a mere going out of the country with the intentions of training is in itself an offence? MR DANDALA Yes it is a political offence. MR DILIZO And therefore that person is automatically termed a terrorist? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR DILIZO You were also questioned about the question of the tinted windows in the kombi that you were using. That the fact that it was so tinted was intended to abduct not to arrest. What was the policy or procedure concerning the use of such tinted windows in Transkei by the security police? Do you know? MR DANDALA I can say they wanted to make sure they were doing that for if there is some one who is arrested especially terrorists their intention they didn't want the people to see that one terrorist is arrested so that they can go on telling the others. MR DILIZO So do you therefore mean that there was nothing sinister about using the tinted windows during the execution of your duties as security people? MR DANDALA I don't see anything sinister in that. MR DILIZO For instance you were questioned on that is Mr Chairman on page 18 of the bundle. You were questioned about the knife and the handcuffs which were in possession of Shosha which is contained there but you said you have not seen it. How come that it could be in your statement and yet you have not seen that yourself? MR DANDALA As I have already mentioned that this statement was only made for the cover-up the knife and the handcuffs I didn't see. I take it as part of the cover-up. MR DILIZO Mr Chairman on page 39 of the bundle. That is the then (...indistinct) statement, the handwritten statement. Whose handwriting is this Mr Dandala? It starts on page 29 up to 40. Whose handwriting is that? MR DANDALA That is Inspector Jordaan's handwriting. MR DILIZO So it is not your handwriting? MR DANDALA No. MR DILIZO Do you know why being an inspector did not make this out of your own handwriting? MR DANDALA No I don't have any knowledge about that. MR DILIZO That is all Mr Chairman with my re-examination. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DILIZO . CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Dilizo. I suppose Mr Hugo and Mr Knight would you have any questions for re-examination? MR HUGO I have no questions thank you Mr Chair. MR KNIGHT I have no questions Mr Chairman. MR DUKADA Sorry Mr Chair can I ask these two questions to the witness? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR DUKADA Mr Dandala you have said repeatedly that Colonel Booi was your superior concerning this operation? MR DANDALA He was my superior. MR DUKADA And he was also in charge of the underground unit? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR DUKADA I have gone through the entire year of documents in this matter but Colonel Booi never made a statement at all. MR DANDALA You mean he didn't make a statement. MR DUKADA Yes. MR DANDALA I don't know Sir. MR DUKADA Do you know if he made any statement? MR DANDALA Please repeat that question? MR DUKADA Do you know if Colonel Booi made a statement after the death of Batandwa Ndondo? MR DANDALA No I don't know Sir. MR DUKADA And Mr Dandala do you agree with me that the cover-ups you have constantly been referring to are extremely important. The idea was to conceal the truth? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR DUKADA And do you also agree with me that it was imperative on you to mention in your supporting affidavit for the application all those cover-ups? MR DANDALA Sir in my affidavit initially there was nothing about the TRC. We were just preparing for the court. In the affidavit I am saying what happened exactly. MR DUKADA Yes but I am saying to you Mr Dandala don't you think it was imperative for the purposes of your present application to mention all those cover-ups in your supporting affidavits? CHAIRPERSON Did you ask him that question yesterday and I think he answered it? ...(inaudible) dealing with matters that may have arisen not matters that have been dealt with already. MR DUKADA I take your point Mr Chairman. The last question I have to the witness. Mr Dandala did you tell your legal representatives that you made cover-ups? MR DANDALA According to this statement he also asked why was it done in this manner I told him that it was done to destroy the case. MR DUKADA Thank you. Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DUKADA . CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Thank you Sir just one question. Lieutenant Geleli is he the one to whom you reported the incident in Nxala after (...indistinct) MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR MAPOMA Is he the one who was the investigating officer of the criminal case about the murder of Batandwa? MR DANDALA I don't know who investigated the case. MR MAPOMA Thank you. CHAIRPERSON You do not know who was the investigating officer in relation to? MR DANDALA No I didn't get to know who was investigating the case. CHAIRPERSON Who told you to go to court? MR DANDALA When a person is being charged he is called and the docket is opened and the particulars are taken and the finger prints are taken. I was never called and charged in that manner. I was just told to go to the court. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that the formal procedures that are required to be gone through when you are charging a person were never complied with in your case? MR DANDALA That never happened. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) make a statement and thereafter your first appearance was in the High Court? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON We will take the tea adjournment now until quarter past eleven. Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS . ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Dukada you have ...(inaudible) MR DUKADA Mr Chairman this is various news but the first one with the heading: "Concern grows for safety of detainees in Transkei." It is Survey Trading and the second articles were Sunday Star. The third article is the Eastern Province Herald. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dilizo have you had sight of these newspaper cuttings? MR DILIZO Yes Sir. CHAIRPERSON Do you have objections to them being ...(inaudible)? MR DILIZO No objections Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hugo? MR HUGO I have no objection. CHAIRPERSON Mr Knight? MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman I have no objection just subject to of course the probative value of the content it is what it purports to be but you can't go further than that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Mr Wessels and Mr Matuweni? MR WESSELS Mr Chairman it seems that we have not been favoured with copies of these documents. CHAIRPERSON I suppose it is because you are behind I suppose. The people often overlook you I suppose. MR WESSELS Thank you Mr Chairman but once we receive them we have no problem to deal with that. CHAIRPERSON They are just cuttings from various newspapers. These cuttings from the various newspapers will be then admitted as Exhibit C. Is that right? Exhibit C yes very well. Mr Sibanyoni do you have any questions to put to the witness? MR SIBANYONI Yes thank you Mr Chairperson. Inspector Dandala where your evidence now before this Committee or your affidavit supporting your application for amnesty differs with previous statements should we see that as an attempt by you to comply with the requirements of this Act or is it an attempt by you to tell the truth as it happened? MR DANDALA In terms of the affidavit I am saying all the truth and in the first statement of the cover-up process it is true there are a lot of covering up statements there. MR SIBANYONI I take it you are aware that what is expected in terms of the TRC Act is that you must make a full disclosure? In other words explain things as they did happen. MR DANDALA That is so Sir. MR SIBANYONI Just another aspect I want to clarify. When you were requested to assist the South African Police operating in Transkei was it for the first time that they were operating or you had information that they did operate before your involvement? MR DANDALA There were rumours that there were sometimes that the South African Police would come to Transkei and operate on the Transkei territory. Sometimes security sometimes other branches. MR SIBANYONI Now is the deceased Batandwa Ndondo was he a South African citizen or was he a Transkeian citizen? MR DANDALA Transkeian citizen. MR SIBANYONI According to you what would have happened after he was arrested was he supposed to be charged here in Transkei or taken over to South Africa? MR DANDALA When arrested in Transkei he must be interrogated and charged in Transkei. MR SIBANYONI What was going to happen about him? MR DANDALA That was not explained as to where he was going to be taken after arrest. But I took it when we drove with that kombi we were going to the charge office. MR SIBANYONI And was it a surprise to you that you were requested to produce your appointment certificate? I understood you saying that you were not supposed to be known that you are police operating but after Batandwa was in the kombi you were requested to produce your appointment certificate. Was that a surprise to you? MR DANDALA No it was not a surprise because at the time he was under arrest. MR SIBANYONI Another aspect. Before he tried to run away, to escape was the window of the kombi closed or did he open it? MR DANDALA It was closed and he opened it. MR SIBANYONI Right you are saying this was the first and the last instance where you were involved in an operation. I take it you are also saying it shocked you, it surprised you therefore I take it that it is something you will not forget easily including the details as to how it happened. Am I correct? MR DANDALA That is correct. MR SIBANYONI And where either Shabalala or any other person differs with you as to how it happened you are maintaining that your version will be the correct one? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. MR SIBANYONI You are saying Shabalala ... chased the deceased around the house and when they were approaching from behind the house you approached them from the front. Is that correct? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR SIBANYONI And if I understood you very well yesterday as you were explaining the events you say that was they were approaching the deceased stood and then you fired a shot at him. MR DANDALA That is correct. MR SIBANYONI After he had stopped? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. MR SIBANYONI To me it will appear as if you didn't shoot him to either effect an arrest or to stop him from running away but it would appear predominantly that you shot at him because of your concern that if you don't do anything, if you don't participate then these people will come and kill you. Am I understanding you correctly? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Sibanyoni. Advocate Sigidi? ADV SIGIDI It is just one aspect that I want to clarify with you. When you got to Batandwa's home you say that you went in and then you asked for him and you met this tall guy. And went back to the kombi is that correct? MR DANDALA Correct. ADV SIGIDI So when he came out he came out on his own free will? MR DANDALA That is so. ADV SIGIDI And in you affidavit you mention that he boarded the kombi on paragraph 19 page 11 he boarded the kombi and they talked to him and he understood the language. And as a result the kombi was turned back up the street towards the charge office direction. So when they talked, in fact who talked to him when he got to the kombi? MR DANDALA Bra Mos. ADV SIGIDI And what impression did you gain? Did you gain the impression that he knew him or what? Did you gain the impression that he knew Bra Mos before bordering the kombi? MR DANDALA I thought so that they may have met each other some time back. ADV SIGIDI So he just got into the kombi freely and willingly? MR DANDALA Yes because all of us were inside the kombi. He entered by himself. ADV SIGIDI I just want clarity on this language that he spoke because I just want to get the effects around the arrest. Of the language that you said he understood. What kind of language are you referring to? MR DANDALA He said we must take a short ride to discuss something. ADV SIGIDI And did he just go with people he had never seen, never met or did you get the impression that he knew these people? MR DANDALA Because he agreed I then thought he may know them from meetings before or if he did not know them I think he would not have agreed to move with them. ADV SIGIDI And he only fled or jumped out of the kombi when you identified yourself as a policeman? MR DANDALA That is correct Ma'am. ADV SIGIDI What did you do when you identified yourself? Did you tell him that you were arresting him or what did you say? Did you just say I am a policeman or what? MR DANDALA I took my appointment card out and gave it to him and he took my appointment card to his hand and looked at it and Bra Mos told him that he is under arrest at the time. ADV SIGIDI And he immediately jumped out through the window? MR DANDALA Correct Ma'am. ADV SIGIDI And the other aspect which sort of puzzles me is the fact that you never knew him and when you went to arrest him or you were told by these people that they were askaris, did you believe him? Did you believe them when they told you that he was a terrorist? MR DANDALA Because there was a conversation in the kombi I could here that they are talking about their experiences of training outside of the country and then I believed them. ADV SIGIDI Was it the first time that you were working with askaris then or had you worked with askaris before? MR DANDALA It was the first time. ADV SIGIDI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Yes. I understand that before you proceeded to arrest well to go to the house where the deceased was you proceeded to Nxala security offices. Whose idea was it that you should first go to Nxala security offices? MR DANDALA It was my idea. CHAIRPERSON What were your concerns? MR DANDALA I had heard that I was not driving with policemen. I was moving with trained terrorists and that insight told me I was not safe myself now and according to the knowledge that I had when you get to any area, when you get to another area you are compelled to go and report to those police there to tell them that you are coming to operate within that area. CHAIRPERSON And then when you arrived at Nxala security office did you get out of the kombi to go into the offices? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON Who did you speak to there? MR DANDALA Constable Noma. CHAIRPERSON And what did you tell him? MR DANDALA I told him that we were around here in Nxala to come and do some work and then I told him that we come to fetch somebody called Batandwa Ndondo. And I asked them as to how we could get hold of that person and he told me that he had just passed the police station driving a Golf car going to the direction where he stays. Truly we had met a Golf that passed us. CHAIRPERSON Did you get the impression that the police at the security branch at Nxala knew the deceased fairly well? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON Did Constable Noma comment on the activities of the deceased? MR DANDALA He did not make any comments. CHAIRPERSON Did he indicate to you that they were also looking for him perhaps or that they were monitoring his movements? MR DANDALA No he did not say anything to that. He did not make any comment. He did not say or show that they were also after him. CHAIRPERSON And then from there you then proceeded to the house where the car was parked I think you said? MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON And you were under the impression from the conversation you had heard with Bra Mos, Shosha and Shabalala that you were going to arrest a trained terrorist right? MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you perhaps consider the deceased to be somewhat dangerous? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON And when you approached the house what safety precautions did you take before approaching the house? MR DANDALA No I just moved out of the kombi going to the house knowing that the person does not know me. CHAIRPERSON Did you have your firearm with you? MR DANDALA I had my firearm with me. CHAIRPERSON Would you please explain to us firstly the sitting arrangement in the kombi? This is a Hi-Ace is it right? MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON How many seats did it have, rows of seats? You have the driver's and the passenger's seat? MR DANDALA There is the back seat, the front seat, the one before that one and another and the back seat. CHAIRPERSON And how were you seated in the car just before the deceased entered the kombi? MR DANDALA Bra Mos sat in the driver's, Shabalala passenger's seat. Myself behind them. Shosha at the back seat. CHAIRPERSON The seat immediately behind you was that vacant? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now when the deceased entered the kombi where did he sit? MR DANDALA At the seat behind me. CHAIRPERSON You then gave him your appointment card and then he was told by Bra Mos that he is under arrest? MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON Could you then describe to us how the accused managed to get out of the kombi? MR DANDALA He opened the car window, the one to the sliding door at the back door and he jumped out. CHAIRPERSON And what were you doing when he was doing all this? MR DANDALA I tried to catch him with his leg because his whole upper body was outside the kombi. CHAIRPERSON But he was behind you was he not? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON At what stage did you see him? Did you see him as he was opening the window or was he already half out of the kombi when you saw him? MR DANDALA I saw him when he was half out. And I then quickly grabbed him with his foot. CHAIRPERSON What drew your attention to him? MR DANDALA When he was told that he was under arrest I then realised that he was trying to run away because he knew that he was under arrest. CHAIRPERSON I understand that. He only by the time you looked at him he was already half way out of the car. MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON What I want to know is what is it that drew your attention to him? MR DANDALA As I have already said before that we were going to arrest him. CHAIRPERSON As I understand your evidence you were sitting at a seat just in front of where he was seated right? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And he was behind you? MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON And the window that he went through was that the window that was behind you? MR DANDALA It was on my side to my behind. CHAIRPERSON Were you looking at him? MR DANDALA He returned my appointment certificate and I put it in my pocket when I turned to look at him I saw him half way out of the window. CHAIRPERSON So you gave him the appointment certificate and he returned it to you, you put it in and by the time you look at him he was already half way out of the car? MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON And Shosha was sitting right at the back? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Did Shosha warn you that here is a man who is trying to escape? MR DANDALA No I did not hear anything. CHAIRPERSON He did not say anything either? CHAIRPERSON I did not see him opening the window it was closed. I did not see him opening the window but I know that it was closed before he had opened it. CHAIRPERSON It must have been very stupid of the deceased to have attempted to get out of the kombi in front of all these police officers in the car? Do you accept that? MR DANDALA Please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON I say it must have been fully stupid of the deceased to have attempted to get out of the kombi in the presence of all these police officers whilst the kombi was moving? MR DANDALA I cannot say that, that is stupidity. I do not know what he thought or that he had been told that he was under arrest it could be that but I cannot say that it was stupidity. CHAIRPERSON And he knew that you were police officers? MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON And that you were armed? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And that you would probably shoot him? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And the kombi was moving? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON And yet he just went through the window? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Shosha didn't sound the warning that here is a man trying to get out of the kombi? MR DANDALA No I did not hear him talking. CHAIRPERSON And all you saw was this man who was already half way out through the window? MR DANDALA Correct CHAIRPERSON While the kombi was moving? MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON You then held on to his legs? MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON And he kicked you? MR DANDALA Correct and he slipped. CHAIRPERSON And he fell outside? MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON And the kombi was moving at the time? MR DANDALA It was in motion but Bra Mos was breaking it. CHAIRPERSON Did anyone assist you before the kombi came to a standstill? MR DANDALA Shabalala went out of the car as it was stopping. Because it was not moving fast at the time. It had just turned a corner. When the car was about to stop he jumped out. CHAIRPERSON But before Shabalala alighted from the kombi did anyone assist you? MR DANDALA No. CHAIRPERSON Shabalala says in his statement somewhere that he assisted you I think it is. Yes I think at page 50 paragraph 39 where he says "The Transkeian policeman and I were holding onto Batandwa's legs who was by this time half way out of the kombi window. We were unable to hold him any longer and we let go and he fell out of the vehicle." MR DANDALA He was at the front seat so he jumped out of the car using the door of the front. CHAIRPERSON You were the Transkeian police in the car? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON So what Shabalala is saying here is not correct? MR DANDALA No not correct. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR DANDALA It is not right. CHAIRPERSON When you shot at the deceased he was no longer running. He had come to standstill. MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON Was he facing you? MR DANDALA He was facing sideways. CHAIRPERSON And then Shabalala continued to shoot at the deceased? MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON He fell down? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Shabalala reloaded the magazine? MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Continued to shoot at him? MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON And how far was (...indistinct) from the deceased? MR DANDALA He was quite near to the deceased. Just like we are sitting here. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) shooting directly at the deceased? MR DANDALA At the deceased. CHAIRPERSON And yet the deceased didn't die there and then? MR DANDALA No he did not die at that spot. CHAIRPERSON He was taken to the charge office. MR DANDALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON And then from the charge office you were told to take him to hospital? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON Then subsequent to these events you were then required to make a statement? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON And you wrote this statement in your own handwriting? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON You then mentioned that you were assisted in the writing of this statement. You testified that you were being assisted by various persons when you wrote this statement? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON What was the nature of the assistance that you were given? MR DANDALA The sort of assistance was such that I must not implicate the others because I had said that the one who had shot the most was Shabalala. And I was told that I must not explain it that way because he would then sink in court. That is the type of assistance I was getting. That we must make a cover-up. All of what happened at the time. CHAIRPERSON What is it that you got the impression was intended to be covered up? MR DANDALA I can say as I have said before that they had told us that he was a terrorist. And also the government I can say he was happy for it that we prepare for the destruction of the case. CHAIRPERSON What I want to find out from you that as you were there being given this assistance what impression did you gain? What is it that they intended to conceal? Was it the fact that the deceased had been shot? MR DANDALA I can only say it is that - the fact that he was shot and killed. CHAIRPERSON But in your statement you did mention though that he was shot by you and Shabalala. MR DANDALA I want to ask which one? CHAIRPERSON In that statement CR92/9/85 the so-called cover-up statement. MR DANDALA I do not understand the question. CHAIRPERSON You know you are saying that what was intended to be concealed was that the deceased had been shot. MR DANDALA Yes. CHAIRPERSON What I am saying to you is that but in the statement that you made which was intended to be a cover-up statement you mention the fact that yourself and Shabalala shot at the deceased. MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON So that wasn't concealed. The fact that he was shot was not concealed? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON That is what I want to know. What is it that was supposed to be concealed? MR DANDALA I would not know Sir. The only thing I know is that all of it was in preparation of the destruction of the case. All that was done then. CHAIRPERSON But did they tell you why? MR DANDALA They did not tell me Sir. CHAIRPERSON See in your statement for example or the so-called cover-up statement you mention that when the deceased came out of the house he was still wearing pyjamas. And that he was given the opportunity to go back and get dressed. Was he wearing pyjamas when he was there? MR DANDALA No he was not wearing pyjamas. CHAIRPERSON Was that included in your statement as part of a cover-up? MR DANDALA That is what I can say Sir because I did not write that in my statement. As I had said I did not speak directly to him. I talked with a slender person and then went back to the kombi. When he came out he came already clad into the car. CHAIRPERSON Did you see this in your statement before you signed it? MR DANDALA I cannot remember whether I saw it or not Sir. CHAIRPERSON Did you read your statement? MR DANDALA Yes Sir. CHAIRPERSON From your own knowledge how would making a statement that the deceased came out wearing pyjamas and was then allowed to go back and get dressed help to conceal the shooting? Do you know? MR DANDALA No Sir. CHAIRPERSON I understand that the reason why you left the kombi to go and participate in the chasing of the deceased and eventually shooting at the deceased was the fear that the askaris once they finish with the deceased they will come back and kill you? MR DANDALA That occurred to me. CHAIRPERSON Is that the only reason why you left, you got out of the kombi to go and participate in the chasing and the shooting of the deceased? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON Had it not been this fear of being killed by the askaris would you have participated in the shooting of the deceased? MR DANDALA Please repeat the question Sir? CHAIRPERSON Had it not been for this fear of being killed by the askaris would you have participated in the shooting of the deceased? MR DANDALA Correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON You would not have participated? MR DANDALA If I had not heard the warning or the threat that in their operations a person who did not participate they come back and kill that one I would not have participated. CHAIRPERSON You would not have left the kombi to go and shoot at the deceased? MR DANDALA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON I understand that Shosha did not go out of the kombi? MR DANDALA Correct Sir she went out of the car later. CHAIRPERSON She did not participate in the shooting? MR DANDALA No. CHAIRPERSON Did she participate in the chasing? MR DANDALA No. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Dilizo is there anything arising? MR DILIZO No questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hugo? MR HUGO No questions thank you. MR KNIGHT No questions Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Tabato? MR TABATO No questions Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Wessels? MR WESSELS No questions thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr ...(inaudible) MR DUKADA No questions. CHAIRPERSON Yes very well. Thank you Mr Dandala you may stand down. MR DANDALA Thank you. WITNESS IS EXCUSED . MR DILIZO Mr Chairman that is the evidence for the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Yes very well. CHAIRPERSON Mr Knight are you ready to proceed straight away or do you want a minute or two to? MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman a minute or two would be appreciated just so that we can make the final seating arrangements. CHAIRPERSON How much time do you need? MR KNIGHT 10 to 15 minutes. CHAIRPERSON 10 to 15? MR KNIGHT It will be maybe 5. It won't be long. It just depend on all my colleagues. CHAIRPERSON What is it? Is it 5, 10 or 15? MR KNIGHT 5 minutes. CHAIRPERSON Okay well shall we give you 10? MR KNIGHT If you wish. CHAIRPERSON Yes very well. We will rest for 10 minutes. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS . ON RESUMPTION MR KNIGHT ... that I have put in qualifications that were in fact left blank in the original. My understanding is that there is a precedent that the applications may be amended. There is no question of the fact that application wasn't made. It is properly made before and it is properly before the Commission. It is just amending some of the pages. So I have prepared an annexure and I would request that the amendment be granted in respect of this incident Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman I must apologise for the copies. The photostat machine wasn't working when copies were made. I will endeavour to have clean copies placed before you. CHAIRPERSON One of my colleagues here, Advocate Sigidi doesn't have a copy of the amended application. Do you have an extra one? MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman I will just check through here. I might have one. There were additional copies made. Mr Hugo kindly ... CHAIRPERSON Well we have got one now yes. Now what parts of the. Mr Mapoma do you have any objections to the application for amendment? MR MAPOMA Mr Chairman I don't have objection. Especially in the sense that this amendment is mainly an addition of the gaps that were not completed by the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Where is the original one? Does that occur at page 44? Is that it? MR MAPOMA From page 41, 42, 43. But I take it that the affidavit will remain as it is. The amendment won't affect the affidavit. That which starts from page 44, 45, 46, 47, 48 up to page 53. To the extent that this amendment does not alter the contents of the affidavit I won't have a problem Sir. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dukada? MR DUKADA Mr Chairman I have no objection to the proposed amendment. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Hugo? MR HUGO I have no objection thank you Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON Mr Wessels? MR WESSELS I have no objection. Thank you Mr Chairman. MR DUKADA I have no objection. CHAIRPERSON Will be granted. MR KNIGHT As Mr Chairman pleases. Mr Chairman may I proceed to call Mr Shabalala? CHAIRPERSON Yes very well. What language is Mr Shabalala going to speak? MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman Mr Shabalala will testify in Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You may sit down. MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman I intend leading the witness on a background and then with regard to the incident. Thank you. Mr Shabalala could you state your age for the record? I am 45 years of age. MR KNIGHT Where are you currently employed? MR SHABALALA At the moment I work in Pretoria. MR KNIGHT As what? MR SHABALALA I am working as a security in a company in Pretoria. Security guard or security officer. MR KNIGHT Now from the period approximately 1982 until the end of Vlakplaas you were based there. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA That is correct Sir I was working there. MR KNIGHT Could you give the Commission some background information relating to your military training that you received with the ANC before you went to Vlakplaas? MR SHABALALA Yes I can tell. I stayed with the ANC almost 4 years outside the country. MR KNIGHT In which countries did you receive training? MR SHABALALA I was in Angola most of the time. I left for Germany. I stayed there for something like 6 months. I went back to Angola again. I stayed there for almost 4 years if I am not mistaken. MR KNIGHT Now in approximately 1982 you returned to South Africa. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes that is correct. I came back to South Africa. MR KNIGHT And you approached the South African Police at Newcastle. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA That is correct Sir. MR KNIGHT When you were at Newcastle for a short period then you were transferred to Vlakplaas. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA That is correct Sir. MR KNIGHT When you arrived at Vlakplaas can you recall who your commanding officer was at that time? MR SHABALALA My commanding officer at the time was Jan Coetzee - Coetzee but I can't remember the first name. MR KNIGHT Jan Coetzee. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA That is correct Sir. It was Jan Coetzee. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shabalala I would request that you raise your voice when giving your evidence so that the people at the back there next to the door hear what you are saying. Thank you Sir. Wait a minute. Now in 1982 you say you returned to South Africa and then you approached the SAP in Newcastle. Is that right? MR SHABALALA Yes that is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON What did you do there? What did you say to the SAP? MR SHABALALA I had some difficulties because I wanted to go home because I was tired of staying out of the country. I didn't want to be there any more. I talked to them and they said if I can work with them and cooperate with them as a person who had some knowledge of the things that were happening outside they can let me work with them because I didn't want to be there any more. I was already in South Africa at that time. CHAIRPERSON So is the position that when you returned in 1982 you proceeded to the South African Police in Newcastle and you told them that you were a member of the ANC from exile who was now sick and tired of life in exile. You wanted to return to South Africa? MR SHABALALA That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON And one of the conditions that was imposed was that you would have to cooperate and work with them? With the police? MR SHABALALA Yes they said I must cooperate. I must work with them because there was no other way. CHAIRPERSON And did you accept those conditions? MR SHABALALA I accepted the conditions because I didn't have a choice because I was already home. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MALE SPEAKER Sorry Mr Chairperson. Can I just clarify this. Did you return on your own to South Africa or were you infiltrated into the country and then thereafter you changed your mind to hand yourself over to the police? MR SHABALALA I came back on my own. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. Now shortly after your arrival the first commanding officer was Captain Jan Coetzee and is it correct that there was a further commanding officer called Jack Cronje who followed him? MR SHABALALA Shortly after my arrival he became my commanding officer. MR KNIGHT And at the time of the incident that we are presently moving to, that we are applying for amnesty here today at that time Colonel Eugene de Kock was your commanding officer. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes he was the commanding officer after the other one. MR KNIGHT What were your duties at Vlakplaas as an askaris? Can you just tell the Committee briefly what your function was? MR SHABALALA Most of the times we were dealing with arresting those who were outside and we were dealing with ammunition, explosives. Some of them we could identify them. We knew them. MR KNIGHT So your official function as askaris was to assist in the tracing of insurgents and the arrest of the insurgents. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes that is correct that was my job. MR KNIGHT Now in operations would people be abducted? There was obviously a lot of things that happened at Vlakplaas that were not normal police work in the strict sense of the word? In the uniform sense of the word? MR SHABALALA I don't get your question Sir. CHAIRPERSON The question is; in the Vlakplaas were you responsible for abducting people because a lot of things that were happening there is things that were not normal? That were not the job of the policemen. Were you working on your own? Doing your own things? MR SHABALALA The way we were operating as far as I am concerned when we were arresting a person we would arrest that person and we would take the person to the nearest police station wherever we were. Or if that person is from the exile we would try to convince that person to work with us and if possible we would work with him. But if he refuses or disagrees we would charge that person. That person would be charged. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. Now after your arrival at Vlakplaas you were appointed as a police officer. Is that correct? As a constable? MR SHABALALA Yes that is correct. MR KNIGHT Now at the time that you were at Vlakplaas did you ever get orders that were in writing? MR SHABALALA No none, no instructions that I got in writing. MR KNIGHT Is it true to say that all of the orders given at Vlakplaas to yourself as a student constable and askaris would have been verbal? MR SHABALALA Yes the orders were verbally but they were reading from something, from a book but they were telling us verbally. They wouldn't give us something written for us to read. They wouldn't give us anything to read. MR KNIGHT Did you ever question any of the orders that you were given? MR SHABALALA No I never questioned. MR KNIGHT Did you regard the orders that you received as legal orders? MR SHABALALA As our officers we saw it as the right thing and the job that we were doing we didn't have a problem. MR KNIGHT Now were any disciplinary steps ever taken against you for your activities at Vlakplaas and regarding the present application in respect of the death of the deceased? MR SHABALALA There was no problem. Nothing happened. MR KNIGHT Now moving to this application in respect of the murder. Were you part of the planning of the operation to move from Vlakplaas to go to Barkley East? Were you part of that planning or did you just receive orders to proceed? MR SHABALALA We got the orders telling us where to go but concerning the deceased we got the orders when we were already in the Transkei in the Barkley East that is when we were told that there are people who were dangerous to the community who were involved in some activities. MR KNIGHT Yes I will come to that later. I am just trying to establish at this point your level of seniority at Vlakplaas was am operational, you were a foot soldier. You didn't have any working in target evaluation or projects. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA I was just a constable. MR KNIGHT And you were following orders. MR SHABALALA Yes our seniors would give us instructions. MR KNIGHT Now did you regard the operation that you proceeded in to arrest or abduct the deceased in this matter as being an operation directed against the African National Congress? MR SHABALALA I regarded it as a job because if the government issued some instructions I wouldn't have a problem. I would proceed with the job that I was given. I wouldn't suspect anything. I wouldn't think of anything wrong or right. I was just taking orders. MR KNIGHT Yes I understand that. I am asking was it directed against the ANC because the deceased was a member of the ANC? MR SHABALALA I can say this was directed to the ANC and the PAC. Those were the organisations that were existing. MR KNIGHT Now at the time was the ANC and the PAC in 1985 a band organisation? MR SHABALALA That is correct they were band. MR KNIGHT Did you regard the ANC and the PAC as enemies of the Republic of South Africa? MR SHABALALA Yes I regarded them as the enemy. MR KNIGHT Now the deceased was he to your knowledge a member of the ANC? MR SHABALALA I didn't know him as a member of the ANC but we got that information that he was a member of the ANC. MR KNIGHT You were told this? MR SHABALALA Yes. MR KNIGHT Now Mr Shabalala before we proceed into the details of the incident I just want to go through parts of your previous amnesty application and I want to refer you to 41 of the paginated record. Now this is the statement dated the 13th of December 1996. This statement. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes that is correct. MR KNIGHT Now where was this statement, where were you at the time? Were you in prison? MR SHABALALA Yes I was in detention in Piet Retief. MR KNIGHT For what reason were you in detention in prison in Piet Retief? MR SHABALALA There is an incident that took place in 19-something when I arrived in Piet Retief at work I was charged for that incident. MR KNIGHT And that is the subject matter of another amnesty application. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes I made an application to that effect. MR KNIGHT Now at page 54 of the record there is another amnesty application and this is filled in, in handwriting. Can you identify whose handwriting it is that wrote the application out for you? Is it the person who signed at page 60, being Reverend Dino Gabriel? Did he also assist you in the drafting of your amnesty application? MR SHABALALA Yes this is the Reverend that I met in Piet Retief and I had some books during the trial telling me that I can make some applications. That is what I got in Piet Retief from that Reverend. MR KNIGHT So why did you have two applications? Did you get worried that the one wasn't being dealt with and you were approached in prison? MR SHABALALA I decided to deal with all these things because most of the things took place while I was at work. I decided to combine all these incidents. MR KNIGHT If I can just refer you to page 48 of the record that is paginated 48 at paragraph 28. You will see the date reflected there is 1996. Is this correct? MR SHABALALA That is very wrong. It is not right. The date is wrong. MR KNIGHT The date is incorrect. It should actually read 1985? MR SHABALALA Yes it is 1985. MR KNIGHT Now on page 46 of the application at paragraph 12 you say that "Once I became a full member of the SAP I was provided with new identity documents. I was asked by Colonel Eugene de Kock to choose a name and then I chose the name 'Thulani Basil Mavusu.' I was issued with a false identity book as well as a new police identity certificate. No particular explanations was given to me for the change of my identity." Now is it correct that your name only changed after the murder of the deceased in this matter and that you had become a police officer long before this? Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes that is true. MR KNIGHT This paragraph is not entirely correct? In the sense that it is placed out of context. What happened, happened but not at the time that you were a constable. It happened after the murder of the deceased in this matter. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes that is correct. MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman perhaps it might be a convenient time to the other amendment - not the amendment but the paper I gave in with the amended papers yesterday was a photostat copy of the identity document. And perhaps one could enter this now and just give it an exhibit number for the sake of convenience. CHAIRPERSON Shall we perhaps mark the amended application Exhibit E and the photocopy of the first page of the applicant's identity document shall then be entered as Exhibit F. MR KNIGHT As it pleases the Commission Mr Chairman if I may proceed? Now I am showing you this photostat copy of your identity book. Does that reflect your correct name? The name that you were born with? MR SHABALALA No this is not my real name. MR KNIGHT This is a copy of the identity document that you received? MR SHABALALA Yes it is a copy of the identity document that I received. MR KNIGHT And you received this after the death of the deceased in this matter? MR SHABALALA Yes I got it after his death. MR KNIGHT Now moving towards the incident itself. At that time in 1985 the Transkei was an independent country. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes it was independent. Transkei was independent. MR KNIGHT Did Vlakplaas have jurisdiction, the South African police officers have jurisdiction to operate in the Transkei or any of the other homelands that were independent? MR SHABALALA As our senior officers the head quarters, we don't know how do they used to operate because we would enter Transkei, they would talk. I don't know how but we would come and enter Transkei. MR KNIGHT Yes but did you as a South African police officer have the right to arrest a foreign national in a foreign country? MR SHABALALA No. MR KNIGHT No. And that was the purpose why - if one were to take the Transkei incident - why it was necessary to have a Transkei policeman supporting yourself? Or being in your group for him to effect the arrest if there was an arrest to be made? MR SHABALALA Yes that is correct. MR KNIGHT Now is it true to say that in many instances people were arrested and then handed over to South African authorities on South African soil? MR SHABALALA That is correct. MR KNIGHT Now when the Vlakplaas people went into the Transkei did you use false registration numbers on the motor vehicles? MR SHABALALA Yes we were using false registration numbers. MR KNIGHT Was this as a matter of course? In other word did it always happen? MR SHABALALA Yes most of the times it happened that way because if we were coming to Transkei we would use the Transkei registration number. MR KNIGHT Now at your level of seniority at Vlakplaas you would have been supplied with the false number plates. It wouldn't have been your job to think about it and say: "No we need false plates." It would have been told to you. Or was it just a common practice that developed? MR SHABALALA It was something common at the time. MR KNIGHT Now the day before the murder in this matter took place you were at Vlakplaas. Am I correct in that or did you come down a little while earlier? Or let me rather rephrase the question. You were sent from Vlakplaas to a place in the Eastern Cape called Barkley East. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA That is correct. MR KNIGHT Whilst in Barkley East you were introduced to certain Transkei policemen. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes in Barkley East we got certain white policemen from the Barkley East with two African men. MR KNIGHT Yes and was one of the Transkei policemen the first applicant, Mr Dandala? MR SHABALALA Yes he was also there. MR KNIGHT Now were there, how did you come up with the name? How did it come about that you were instructed to arrest and abduct Mr Ndondo, the deceased in this matter? MR SHABALALA When we arrived there at Badplaas their commander told us it was a person. It was not one person. There was a list of names and there was also a photo album where there were certain people who were said to be dangerous in the Transkei. So we would recognise some of them. He was also among those people that we had managed to recognise. There was another girl also who was in our company who knew him. Who was with him. MR KNIGHT So it wasn't as if sitting at Vlakplaas you got the order go and arrest the deceased, Mr Ndondo. The decision to go and look for him and arrest him came after he had been identified in the so-called terrorist albums that you had looked through together with your colleague Shosha at the time and it was her that recognised. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA I don't get your question. MR KNIGHT Simply when you were at Vlakplaas before you left for Barkley East it wasn't told to you then you are going to go and abduct the deceased or to arrest the deceased. You are going to go to Barkley East. It is at Barkley East that you look at the so-called terrorist albums and you then get the photograph there. So the planning to arrest Ndondo at that time was made in Barkley East. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes that was decided in Barkley East. CHAIRPERSON The orders that you had received when you were in Vlakplaas were these the orders simply to go to Barkley East and assist the security branch in Transkei in apprehending the insurgents? MR SHABALALA When we left the Vlakplaas we knew that we were going to work with the Transkeian police because we were going to the Transkei. We met them at the Barkley East where we started with our journey. CHAIRPERSON And then the security branch in Transkei was then going to indicate to you the kind of assistance that they required from you? MR SHABALALA Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. Mr Knight the time now, my watch says it is about a minute or two to one 'o clock. You may continue but when it is convenient would you? MR KNIGHT Mr Chairman it would be a convenient time now presently to take the adjournment. CHAIRPERSON Okay we will take the lunch adjournment and return at two 'o clock. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS . ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Shabalala may I remind you that you are still under oath. MBUSO ENOCK SHABALALA (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes you may continue Mr Knight. EXAMINATION BY MR KNIGHT (cont) Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shabalala if we can move now to the time just before you left for the Transkei. Who was in the motor vehicle? MR SHABALALA The people in that car that were driving it was myself and Bra Mos and Shosha. MR KNIGHT And was the Transkei policeman there - Mr Dandala? MR SHABALALA He was not there. MR KNIGHT Was this when you left Elliot for the Transkei, he was not there? Surely he was with you? MR SHABALALA He was not in the Vlakplaas. We got him at the Barkley East. MR KNIGHT Yes. No I am talking about the time at Barkley East. It was Bra Mos, the other woman Shosha, yourself and Mr Dandala. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Correct. MR KNIGHT Now can you recall what rank Bra Mos had as a policeman? MR SHABALALA Bra Mos at the time was a lieutenant. MR KNIGHT He was a lieutenant. Now was he a senior officer to you? MR SHABALALA Yes he was security senior. MR KNIGHT So he would as your senior officer you would take orders from him? MR SHABALALA Yes that is correct. MR KNIGHT And if he gave you an order you would obey it. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes I listen from him. MR KNIGHT Now this incident relating to the death of Mr Ndondo is approximately 14 years ago. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes that is correct. MR KNIGHT Now in those 14 years have you ever made notes or written things down as to how things happened to refresh your memory? In the sense, contemporaneous notes. Notes made at the time of how things happened? MR SHABALALA No I did not write anything. I remember all of it. MR KNIGHT So you are relying in the statements that you have made, on your memory. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes very much. MR KNIGHT Do you find that your memory in certain instances that there are certain things that you possibly can't remember in great detail and other things that you can remember in detail? MR SHABALALA A little not much that's happened. MR KNIGHT So at the time that you filled in your amnesty application and at the time that you gave the statement to Inspector Jordaan you were relying on your memory of how you remember the events. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes that is correct. MR KNIGHT Now once you left Barkley East and entered into the Transkei with Captain Mos, yourself, Shosha and Inspector Dandala who was sitting where in the vehicle? MR SHABALALA When we left from Barkley East I was sitting at the front, Dandala to my back and Bra Mos in the front. I was sitting next to Bra Mos when we left Barkley East proceeding to pick up Shosha at Elliot. MR KNIGHT And what happened after this when you picked up Shosha? MR SHABALALA When I then moved from the from seat and I went to the back seat when we picked up Shosha. I went to the back seat yes. And Shosha took the place I had been occupying at the front. MR KNIGHT Where did you then proceed to? MR SHABALALA When we picked Shosha up we then proceeded to Nxala. MR KNIGHT Now did you go directly to Nxala or did you go somewhere else to receive information and then go to Nxala? MR SHABALALA When we left Elliot we went to Nxala. We had information already. MR KNIGHT So where did you proceed to? MR SHABALALA When we left there we went to Nxala if I am not mistaken. MR KNIGHT Yes and what happened at Nxala? MR SHABALALA When we got to Nxala we had already talked along the way that the person we wanted to get is this one. We then informed each other and Dandala. He was the one who was going to identify him easily by seeing him. I don't know when we got there whether it was a police station or what but it was where Dandala disembarked and went there and came back. When he came back he told us the person is around but they are not certain where he is. MR KNIGHT Do you recall that it was to your recollection did you know whether it was or wasn't a police station that he went into to enquire as to the whereabouts of the deceased? MR SHABALALA It looked like a police station in the beginning when I recall. MR KNIGHT Was this at Nxala? MR SHABALALA Yes this was at Nxala next to a residential area but a little bit off from the residential place. MR KNIGHT Is it correct that at that time you proceeded to the house that the deceased or in the direction of where the deceased was staying? MR SHABALALA When we left the police station we did not move a long distance going to that house where Dandala had seen a car. He then pointed the car to us. I remember. MR KNIGHT Now from who had you got a description of the car? Can you recall? MR SHABALALA It is Dandala who came back with a description from that place seemingly looking like a police station. MR KNIGHT Now can you tell the Committee at this point who was sitting where in the vehicle? Captain Mos was driving. Where were the other people? MR SHABALALA Shosha at the front seat. Dandala behind Mos and then a seat that you can close in order to allow others to pass. I was sitting on that seat that you can close with a space allowing me to go out. MR KNIGHT Would that have been to the left of Mr Dandala or am I correct in assuming that, that is directly behind Shosha, in the front seat? Or am I incorrect? MR SHABALALA There is an empty chair with a folding seat behind Shosha. I am behind that folding seat. In technical I am behind Shosha but there is that folding seat in front of me or between me and Shosha. MR KNIGHT I see. Now the vehicle (...intervention) CHAIRPERSON There is a seat that is immediately behind the driver's seat. Is that where Dandala was seated? MR SHABALALA Yes he was exactly behind the driver. CHAIRPERSON And were you seated on the same seat but on the left side? MR SHABALALA I had passed the seat where Dandala was sitting and went to the following one. CHAIRPERSON That would be the one from the back? MR SHABALALA Yes. Correct the third chair from the front. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. The vehicle that you were travelling in is it correct that it had false registration numbers and tinted windows? MR SHABALALA Yes that is true. MR KNIGHT Now what happened when you approached the house of the deceased? Can you tell the Committee what happened up until the time that the deceased got into the motor vehicle? MR SHABALALA As we saw the car from the distance we saw some one alighting from that car going into that house. When that person got into that house we were approaching. It is then that Dandala alighted and went into the (...indistinct) that house. MR KNIGHT Now (...intervention) CHAIRPERSON What time of the day was this? MR SHABALALA That was early nine to ten, it was early in the morning. It was not late. MR KNIGHT Now when the deceased came out of his house or the house at which he was staying what happened directly after that? CHAIRPERSON Just allow him to tell us what happened because as I understand him Dandala left the kombi and went into the house. What happened thereafter? MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. MR SHABALALA After Dandala had alighted and gone into the or to the direction of the house he came back. When he came back he went into the car he told us that the person will be coming. When the person came from the house, that is Batandwa he was wearing a track suit. If I am not mistaken it was a track suit. Before he came to the car, he was a distance away from the car Shosha said indeed this is the person we are coming to find. As he was coming we were then certain that indeed this is the person we were after. I was at that seat where I was sitting and Shosha in the front seat. Dandala when he came back from the house he went to the same seat where he was sitting before. MR KNIGHT And then what transpired? MR SHABALALA When he came to the car he came in, closed the door. Its the door close by him or myself I don't know. I cannot remember. My window was open. He came into the car. When inside Bra Mos asked Dandala to introduce himself to that person. Dandala complied and showed that person his ID. He showed him, this person. After showing him he took this ID and looked at it and from there Noma Shosha or Shosha sat on that seat facing now to the back straight with Dandala. That is now Shosha is at the front. She had looked back kneeling on the seat, on the front seat holding handcuffs with her hands, holding handcuffs with her hands. Noma Shosha or Shosha she named him by a name telling him: "Batandwa can you remember me still?" That is where Batandwa jumped. The door could not open as we were, the door of the car we were travelling in. When the door would not open he decided to use the alternative of the window, the nearest one trying to go out. His whole upper body was outside. When he tried to escape that way me and Dandala at that time the car is in motion. Bra Mos was saying: "We are trying to discuss with you something." Before the car could leave and Dandala showing the ID. The car moved on and it showed that he was not prepared to, he tried to run away. We held his feet, it is me and Dandala. This person had a hefty body and his whole body was outside and it was apparent that he was too heavy and he was using his feet and kicking and so on and we could not go on holding his feet. Bra Mos decided because this person is going to get hurt as the car is in motion. Bra Mos then decided to reduce the speed until it then stopped. At that time we are still trying to hold on to his feet and his shoe ... MR KNIGHT ... at when he jumped out of the window or attempted to jump out what speed was the vehicle doing in your estimation? MR SHABALALA The estimation of the speed is that it was moving very slowly. It was then that Bra Mos tried to stop the car because he could see that we could not go on holding Ndondo that way. CHAIRPERSON Could you estimate the speed or can you not? MR SHABALALA It had no speed really. It was about to stop. Very slow. CHAIRPERSON But at the time when the deceased you know started to jump at what speed was the motor vehicle travelling at the time? MR SHABALALA It may have been moving 10 km per hour. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. How far had you travelled in the vehicle from the deceased house to the point that he attempted to jump out of the vehicle? How long had that been? Was it a short distance? How far had you managed to travel? Can you recollect that? MR SHABALALA Say it is 100m from where he stayed. It was not far. MR KNIGHT Now at the time that he entered into the vehicle and Bra Mos drove off and this is before he jumped out of the vehicle what was your understanding of where you were going to take him? What I am getting to is were you going to take him to the police station or were you going to take him back to Barkley East? MR SHABALALA What I can say is that the decision was to be taken by Bra Mos but our way seemed to be pointing to Barkley East. MR KNIGHT So you were heading in the direction of Barkley East. Now Bra Mos was your commanding officer and is it correct that he was in charge of where the vehicle was going? You didn't know precisely where he was going to go or did you? MR SHABALALA Yes that is correct. MR KNIGHT Now just before we get into the incident something I want to clarify regarding the manner in which South African police co-operated with the Transkei police. Is it true that you as a South African policeman on Transkei soil could not arrest him for a crime committed in South Africa or suspected in South Africa? MR SHABALALA It was so but we had a Transkeian policeman who was the one who was then supposed to represent us in certain matters. MR KNIGHT And as far as your understanding of the planning of that day and your recollection thereof goes the intention was to take him back to Barkley East. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA I think so. That is how I see it. MR KNIGHT What would have happened had he not escaped and had you proceeded to Barkley East? What would have become of Mr Ndondo? To whom would he have been handed over? MR SHABALALA As we had found him it would have been necessary for Mos to try and phone senior members who had provided Dandala and to communicate with those and to determine where that person must be taken to. MR KNIGHT How would you have communicated with him? Did you have a radio in the car or? MR SHABALALA We did not have a radio but we had phone numbers. MR KNIGHT Now let us go back now to the details of immediately after the deceased fell from the car and the car came to a halt. You were saying that Bra Mos then jumped out. Can you then continue to tell us what happened? MR SHABALALA When the car stopped, Bra Mos when it stopped we had already lost control of him. I was trying to reach my gun as Bra Mos was jumping out of the car he went in front of the car holding him. Bra Mos was carrying a gun. MR KNIGHT Is the HMC a 9mm gun? MR SHABALALA It is HMC something like that. He was holding that gun. Bra Mos started shooting with that HMC. When I was alighting trying to open the door took out my gun as I was holding a clutch bag. As I was alighting Bra Mos said he must not run. He started shooting I too started shooting at that time. MR KNIGHT So Bra Mos started shooting. At the time that Bra Mos started shooting the deceased had run away from the vehicle. Is that correct? He was not at the vehicle? He was running away. How far would you say he was when the first shots were fired to your recollection? If you can't remember you must say you can't remember but. MR SHABALALA I would say the distance that he had ran may have been about 15 m away from the kombi when Bra Mos started shooting. When I alighted he was about 20 m away from the car. CHAIRPERSON Was that the deceased or Bra Mos? MR SHABALALA It was the deceased who was at that distance. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. Now what prevented you from alighting the car immediately that he had fallen to the ground? MR SHABALALA The reason why I could not alight from the car fast a gun was on the seat. MR KNIGHT And was the sliding door locked? MR SHABALALA The sliding door of the kombi we were using you could not open from the inside. You had to open using your hand from the outside handle. MR KNIGHT Now immediately that you alighted the vehicle the evidence of Mr Dandala was that you became ensued in a struggle with the deceased and that he then escaped your grasp and you shot him at a very close range as he was running away. What is your comment on that? MR SHABALALA I disagree with that because I was at the back seat. As if I distort story that I could go to him and have a struggle with him. I could not. That I disagree with that. I only held him whilst we were inside. With Dandala I disagree with that. MR KNIGHT In your experience as a policeman if the deceased had been 8 m away from you or a very short distance away from you and you opened fire do you think he would have been able to run? What would the effect have been of bullets entering him? MR SHABALALA He could only fall. CHAIRPERSON That would have depended on what where the shot was aimed at right? MR KNIGHT Yes Mr Chairman. The other thing I wanted to ask you with regard to the initial firing of the shots. Who gave the orders to shoot? MR SHABALALA I can say it was Uncle Mos who gave us the order to shoot because he had already starting shooting. We could not have shot had he not started shooting. MR KNIGHT And did you regard that as a lawful command? MR SHABALALA As a commander if he has given an order I cannot say no because he had already started shooting. CHAIRPERSON Did Uncle Mos or Bra Mos specifically order you to shoot at the deceased? MR SHABALALA I can say Bra Mos did not talk with me alone. What he said was: "Let's shoot to prevent him running away," because he had already started shooting. MR KNIGHT Although you were not the person who commenced the shooting or gave the order for the shooting to commence what to your mind must have been the reason for preventing the deceased from escaping? MR SHABALALA Can the question please be repeated? MR KNIGHT Why was it necessary to shoot the deceased to prevent his escape? MR SHABALALA What I can say it was to prevent his escape. Secondly to avoid him increasing the distance between us and also ultimately divulging the information about Shosha. MR KNIGHT What would have become of Shosha had the deceased managed to escape and give away the information that she was working with the security police? MR SHABALALA It would have been very dangerous for Shosha. MR KNIGHT Would she have been able to continue operating in a covert manner that she was? MR SHABALALA Yes that is so. CHAIRPERSON I am not sure whether you understood the question. The question is had Shosha's identity been revealed to the public in general would she have been in a position to continue her duties as an askaris? MR SHABALALA No she would not have been able. It would have disturbed the whole process. MR KNIGHT In the evidence of Mr Dandala he made a further allegation that you took out a second magazine and then shot further shots at the deceased whilst the deceased was lying on the ground. What is your comment on that? MR SHABALALA I disagree with that seriously because I had only one magazine. I did not have a second one. What I can say is when we were about to get to him with Bra Mos I took out the magazine out and then took out the cartridge and took it back the magazine and put the magazine back and took the person physically because he we already defeated. That is all I can say. I disagree with him. MR KNIGHT So are you saying that you then cleared the round from the chamber after he had - I don't understand what happened there? Did you take your magazine out, clear the round from the chamber and then put the round that was in the chamber back into the magazine? MR SHABALALA Yes I took the bullet from the chamber and took it back to the magazine and then returned my gun so that we could arrest this person. MR KNIGHT So it is a procedure in making your weapon safe after you fired it so that you don't shoot yourself accidentally? MR SHABALALA Yes that is an easy way to avoid it having a bullet in front. To keep it safe also. MR KNIGHT After the deceased was lying on the ground it was decided to load him into the Hi-Ace that you were driving. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes that is what we did. CHAIRPERSON You have not told us what you did. Did you shoot at the deceased when you told us that Bra Mos said to you, you must shoot at the deceased. MR SHABALALA Yes I too shot about 4 bullets at the deceased. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. When you shot the 4 rounds at the deceased was he facing towards you or facing away from you? MR SHABALALA I was about behind him to the left and Bra Mos was at the right. Dandala was also to his left, that is the deceased left. CHAIRPERSON But when you shot at the deceased was he running away from you or was he running towards you? MR SHABALALA When we shot he was running, he was going to a certain house there. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. At that time where was Inspector Dandala? Can you recall? MR SHABALALA At the time of the shooting he too alighted from the car and he was to my left and was in the middle of somewhere and Bra Mos was to our right. We were more or less same distance if you take the distance and Bra Mos was at the extreme right. MR KNIGHT So he did not remain in the car? He was alongside you shooting as well? MR SHABALALA When I alighted he too followed. The only person who was left at the car was the lady. He was part of those who were chasing that person. MR KNIGHT At the time that the deceased fell was he seriously wounded or was he still conscious? What was your observation? MR SHABALALA When we got to him there were drops of blood at his back. It became apparent that he had been hit. MR KNIGHT Was he still alive? MR SHABALALA Yes he was still alive, he was alive. MR KNIGHT If I can refer you to page 50 of the bundle, the paginated bundle at paragraph 42 it says "Captain Mos then drove the kombi to Batandwa's body. He was put in the kombi and taken to the local police station." Now is it your recollection that this was a police station or because I want to refer you to if you look at that? Or let me ask you this. Is that correct that you took him to the police station and left him there? MR SHABALALA What I can say we took him to the police station. Because where we had left him. It did not look like a place with distances between. It looked like an integrated area. It looked like a very near area to us as far as I could see where we left him. It could have been a place we moved from this area this side of the road perhaps to that other side of the road as far as I could see. CHAIRPERSON And what did this place look like? Was it a hospital, a mortuary or a police station? MR SHABALALA That place appeared to me like a police station. It was at the back, we went via the back of that building. It could have been a police station or a hospital as far as I could see. CHAIRPERSON Where exactly at that place did you leave him? MR SHABALALA People from that building came to us with a stretcher and they took him from the car. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. MR KNIGHT Thank you. If I can refer you to page 77 of the paginated bundle. This is the statement given to Inspector Jordaan at the almost in the middle of the page there is a sentence which reads "Mos and Dandala reported the incident at Nxala police station. After that we took Batandwa to the mortuary. But I am not certain whether it was a state or hospital mortuary." Do you recall making that statement. Do you understand what has just been read to you? MR SHABALALA I did not know whether it was a hospital or what. MR KNIGHT Have you ever been to Nxala since the incident or prior to that incident? MR SHABALALA I did go after the incident if I am not mistaken. MR KNIGHT What I want to establish is do you know the area well or not? MR SHABALALA I don't the area of Nxala but I can remember that. MR KNIGHT After you had taken the deceased to the hospital where did you proceed to? MR SHABALALA After taking the person to that building we then proceeded to Elliot. MR KNIGHT Who proceeded to Elliot? MR SHABALALA All of us in that kombi. MR KNIGHT When you got to Elliot what did you do? MR SHABALALA When we got to Elliot we went to the police station there at Elliot. When we got to that police station there were white people there. I don't know whether they were resident there or from Transkei. I do not know who they were. Bra Mos then gave them a report about what happened. MR KNIGHT The people that you are referring to, although you do not recall their names or identities was your understanding that they were policemen? MR SHABALALA Yes they were policemen. Yes they were policemen. MR KNIGHT If I can refer you to page 62 of the paginated record of proceedings there is a statement which is called A19 which starts with your name and describes you as a special constable in the Transkei police. Would you like to comment on this document? Did you draft this document? MR SHABALALA The statement I never gave that statement in Transkei. The only statement they came it was one at Piet Retief. I don't know about such statement. I don't know anything. MR KNIGHT So after this incident and after your return to Elliot where Captain Mos went and reported to the other white policemen at the police station did you immediately proceed back to Pretoria or did you leave the following day? How long after that incident did you go back to Vlakplaas? MR SHABALALA I don't know how long it took us. It could have been days, one day. I do not remember any longer how long it took us. As to how many days I do not remember any longer. MR KNIGHT If I can refer you to page 78 of this statement that was given to Inspector Jordaan. I just want to ask you some questions relating to this statement. Is it correct that this statement was taken whilst you were in detention in Piet Retief prison? MR SHABALALA Yes correct. The statement was taken from me at Piet Retief. MR KNIGHT Did he use an interpreter when he minuted the statement from you? MR SHABALALA No there was no interpreter I talked out of myself. MR KNIGHT And do you understand, can you read Afrikaans? MR SHABALALA I have problems in Afrikaans. I prefer English. MR KNIGHT Perhaps before I deal with this question of the statement. When you went back to Vlakplaas when was the first time you knew that you were coming down to Umtata to stand trial with regard to the death of Ndondo? MR SHABALALA I was at Piet Retief at the time when I got there the one who took the statement from me told me that there is this case. That is how I got to hear that I was supposed to appear. MR KNIGHT Did you ever appear in Umtata? You must have appeared if you had gone down to Umtata? MR SHABALALA I went to the court at Umtata while I was still working. That was a long time back while I was still working. And Vlakplaas was still in existence. I did go there. MR KNIGHT But now was that for the purpose of the - was it related to the murder of Mr Ndondo? MR SHABALALA Yes that is what I went there for at Umtata. MR KNIGHT And was the matter merely postponed? Was it remanded to another date or did it proceed? MR SHABALALA It was postponed remanded for another day. MR KNIGHT Now can you recall what happened at Vlakplaas at that time? And I am referring now specifically to Annexure F this being the change of your identity. CHAIRPERSON Just before you came to that point when you spoke to the police officer who took the statement from you, you said that you talked directly to the officer. There was no interpreter. MR SHABALALA I do not understand well. CHAIRPERSON Jordaan came to you to take a statement. MR SHABALALA Correct. CHAIRPERSON And you said that you did not make use of an interpreter. MR SHABALALA Yes I was talking myself. I was talking. There was no interpreter. CHAIRPERSON What language did you use? MR SHABALALA I was talking in English. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. Is it true that Colonel de Kock came to you whilst at Vlakplaas and advised you that your name must be changed? MR SHABALALA Yes correct. MR KNIGHT Was it ever told to you who had given the orders for that or was it merely said to you that this is how it is going to happen? MR SHABALALA No I was not told. I was simply told that I must change my name and surname. MR KNIGHT And after having chosen the name you did what happened? Were you then provided with a new identity book and police certificate? MR SHABALALA I got a new ID, the one shown in front of us all now. The police force number I got only later. It took some time before I could get it. MR KNIGHT If we can just return back to the appearances at court at the Umtata Supreme Court. And I want to refer you to the statement given to Inspector Jordaan at page 78 of the minutes half way down the page. It is and I will just read it into the record "Captain de Kock told me that during the court proceedings I should present myself as Captain Mos. Thus it was Dandala and Mos who stood trial. This decision was made because the real Captain Mos had lived in the Transkei and had family there." Now the question I want to ask you is, is this entirely correct that you had to impersonate Captain Mos in the Umtata Supreme Court? Is that correct? MR SHABALALA No it is not the truth. MR KNIGHT Did you ever - how do you think this would have come into the statement? Do you think it was as a result of a misunderstanding with Inspector Jordaan? MR SHABALALA Right there the statement does not connect. It is not the right thing. I disagree with that section. MR KNIGHT Yes. CHAIRPERSON What is your answer? Isn't the question that is being asked is whether was this as a result of a misunderstanding between you? MR SHABALALA It may have happened that because Bra Mos was the one who had, who was charged and he was the one who stayed in this area. And it could happen that his parents may be in danger and it was then that I would then appear in court as Mos. CHAIRPERSON You had appeared in court as Bra Mos or as Shabalala or as Mbuso? MR SHABALALA Here at Transkei I appeared at court. I think I was Shabalala. (...indistinct) my calling I was not even called - I was not even called to the dock. I was simply told that my case would not be heard that day. CHAIRPERSON You were just advised whilst outside court that your case was being postponed? MR SHABALALA There was the head quarters and then I moved from there to court. It was just over the road. When I got there I just stood there around with others I never got to the witness box or anything like that. Somebody came to me and told me: "Ah your case is being postponed." And then I left. Took the car and went to Barkley East. CHAIRPERSON And when you went to court you went to court as Mbuso Enock Shabalala? MR SHABALALA I must agree because at the time I was still under that identity. I was not Mbuso Shabalala. CHAIRPERSON You seem to hesitate. MR SHABALALA No I don't doubt. I was Enock Mbuso Shabalala. That was a fact. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. Now you also state just down the page still on page 78 of the record "On that day Captain de Kock was present in Umtata and he was busy organising the case." Now to your recollection was Captain de Kock at Umtata? MR SHABALALA This section again de Kock never came here to Umtata. It was only me and Bra Mos who came to Umtata. de Kock did not come to Umtata. It must have been a mistake. He did not come. MR KNIGHT Now for all intents and purposes after you were provided with the new identity you never heard of this matter again? MR SHABALALA No, after that I never got to hear about this matter. MR KNIGHT I just want to just return to your capacity acting under the orders of Captain Bra Mos at the time that the order was given to shoot. Did you regard that as a lawful order given to you? MR SHABALALA I saw it lawful because Bra Mos had told me, the same as the work we were supposed to come and do. MR KNIGHT So you regarded it was a lawful order? MR SHABALALA Yes I cannot dispute that. MR KNIGHT At the time were you on duty with the South African Police? MR SHABALALA Yes correct. MR KNIGHT Were you acting in the course and scope of your employment with the South African Police? MR SHABALALA Yes I was following it. MR KNIGHT Now I just want to refer you to paragraph 10a of Annexure E. It is stated there that Batandwa Ndondo was suspected of being an ANC terrorist and he was to be abducted and brought back to the Republic of South Africa for interrogation and possible recruitment as an askaris. Now my question is; recruitment as an askaris was this something that was pre-planned at Elliot before you left or was it something that would normally take place when a trained terrorist was captured? MR SHABALALA I do not understand the question. MR KNIGHT Let me put it to you in another way. If a trained terrorist was captured by yourselves would you in the normal course attempt to make that person an askaris? To recruit him as an askaris? MR SHABALALA Yes it used to happen. MR KNIGHT Yes. So the intention of abducting or let me put it this way or to bring into South Africa to be handed to the police was in fact for the purpose of him being interrogated. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes that is so. MR KNIGHT The security police wanted information from Ndondo. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA True. CHAIRPERSON Who wanted information from the deceased? MR KNIGHT The security police, the South African security police. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Let me clarify this. I understood you to say earlier on that you did not know what was to become of the deceased. Bra Mos was going to make the decision as the leader of your group. Did you not tell us that? MR SHABALALA I said so. CHAIRPERSON But now are you now saying that the purpose of going to the deceased was to abduct him, return him to South Africa for the purposes of being interrogated by the South African security branch? MR SHABALALA What I will say that the security branch of South Africa we were united with Transkei we would work with the Transkei police. It was not only going to be South Africa police. CHAIRPERSON But I got the impression when you testified earlier on that all you knew was that there was an ANC operative who was operating in Nxala and that you are going to assist to apprehend that person. What was to become of that person whilst he was arrested it was going to be the decision of Bra Mos. But I understand you now as saying that the reason why you went to the deceased in the first place was to abduct him so that you can return him to the Republic of South Africa for interrogation and possible recruitment. Do you understand the problem that I am trying to outline to you? MR SHABALALA I see it but I was talking in relation to the time we were supposed to come and fetch him. That small time before I alighted, it was only that small time. Bra Mos would tell us where are supposed to find that person. Whether to go and phone or whatever. CHAIRPERSON And eventually who were you going to phone? MR SHABALALA We would have phoned ultimately the one who was leading Dandala and others here in Transkei and that the others on the list. CHAIRPERSON Phone them and say what to them? MR SHABALALA Phone them and tell them that we found this person and they must tell us what we must do with this person. CHAIRPERSON Because you didn't know what you were supposed to do with him? MR SHABALALA No our job was just to go and fetch him. CHAIRPERSON You were to arrest the deceased and take him where? MR SHABALALA To Barkley East. CHAIRPERSON And hand him over? To the Transkei security branch there? MR SHABALALA We would fetch him from there and take him to Barkley East to that police station there. Most times we met there with the Transkeian police there we would meet there ordinarily. Many times we would meet there with the Transkeian police. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Now when were you going to take him to South Africa? MR SHABALALA At the time we found him we tried to phone and see where we were supposed to take that person and quickly take that person to wherever we were directed. CHAIRPERSON I am not too sure I am with you. You see while you were giving your evidence here you told us what was going to happen to the deceased that was going to be decided by Mos. Didn't you say that? MR SHABALALA Yes I said so. CHAIRPERSON And now in this statement that was just read to you I gather that what you were told to do was to go there to the Transkei and abduct the deceased and come back with him to the Republic of South Africa in order to interrogate him and also to try and recruit him in your organisation. MR SHABALALA I disagree with that. It is clear I did not hear the question properly. I heard that question saying does it ever happen that when we find a person we try to recruit them to change them into our way of thinking and acting. Not in relation to this. As to whether does it ever happen for us to try and recruit him to correctly communicate and cooperate with us. Not this one. CHAIRPERSON When you left Vlakplaas to Barkley East did you know what you were going to do at Barkley East? MR SHABALALA We did not know when we left Vlakplaas what we would be going to do there. CHAIRPERSON Were you going to be given further orders once you arrive at Barkley East? MR SHABALALA That is what happened. CHAIRPERSON Were you told perhaps that you are going there to assist the security branch in the Transkei in order to identify and arrest people who were suspected of being terrorists? MR SHABALALA Yes when we got to Barkley East that is what happened. CHAIRPERSON Were those the kind of broad instructions that you were given at Vlakplaas? MR SHABALALA No that instruction we got at Barkley East. CHAIRPERSON Now and who gave you those instructions? MR SHABALALA You see when we got to Barkley East we got a white man there who has always been there who was moving with Dandala and others. And then a white man we were moving with and then an officer, Bra Mos who then gave us names of people here in Transkei. Saying here we are supposed to deal with these people, here are the photo's and so on, whatever photo's we are given. CHAIRPERSON Were those the people that Transkei security branch were looking for? MR SHABALALA Yes correct. CHAIRPERSON Now what were you instructed to do about those persons? MR SHABALALA We were instructed to come and help the Transkei police to find those persons. Because they are the people who are responsible for trouble here in Transkei. To help them. CHAIRPERSON Once these persons have been captured were you told what is going to happen to them? MR SHABALALA If we found those persons it would be determined what their activities are. It was the officers who were supposed to deal with that. CHAIRPERSON Were the officers? Which officers were those now? Were those the officers who gave you the instructions at Barkley East? MR SHABALALA It is the ones who are supposed to deal then with those people further. CHAIRPERSON These officers were then going to decide what was to become of these persons that you have captured? MR SHABALALA Correct they would continue with investigations and we would then proceed doing our work as usual. CHAIRPERSON And looking for other persons? MR SHABALALA Yes so. CHAIRPERSON So you were not told that: "Go and capture the deceased and return him to South Africa for interrogation"? Those were not your instructions? MR SHABALALA That way I can put it. I don't know how I must put it. Because when we found him we were supposed to take him back to Barkley East. CHAIRPERSON You were going to give him to the Transkei police to interrogate him? MR SHABALALA As the white man who was heading Dandala's group he was the one who would be part of those to determine what would happen to him as when this person is found. CHAIRPERSON Yes you may continue Mr Knight yes. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Shabalala when you received the order from Colonel de Kock to go down from Vlakplaas to Barkley East there were two other white officers that came to Barkley East with you from Vlakplaas. Can you recall their names? MR SHABALALA Yes they were white people, there were two. MR KNIGHT Can you recall their names? MR SHABALALA It must have been Adjutant Snor Vermeulen and whether it was a lieutenant I do not remember well but it was du Plessis. MR KNIGHT Now du Plessis and Vermeulen are those the policemen who were at Barkley East who Ndondo was to be taken to by Bra Mos? MR SHABALALA The ones who were there it was that two and another policeman of Transkei, a white man who was working with Dandala. He was part of the security officers here. We found him at Barkley East. They were moving all of them together. It was those who were supposed to determine what must be done. MR KNIGHT So it was not your function to take part in the interrogation? Your job was to identify and bring to Barkley East and from there it would be left to the white officers as to decide which way it goes? MR SHABALALA Yes that is what was supposed to happen. MR KNIGHT Now just a question I would like to ask you with regard to Vlakplaas. Is it true that Vlakplaas is a farm just outside Pretoria? MR SHABALALA Correct. MR KNIGHT Were you ever allowed visitors at Vlakplaas or allowed to tell anybody that you worked for Vlakplaas? MR SHABALALA No that was not allowed. Nobody would be visited there any way. MR KNIGHT In fact it was a secret base. MR SHABALALA Correct it was a government secret base. MR KNIGHT Now when you returned to Vlakplaas at the end of that month after Ndondo had been killed did you get any reward directly or indirectly? MR SHABALALA When I returned to Vlakplaas if I am not mistaken we were given R500 each, all three of us. MR KNIGHT That being yourself, Bra Mos and Shosha? MR SHABALALA Yes correct. MR KNIGHT Now when you got the R500 as far as you can recollect and it is a long time ago was it specifically said this is for killing a person or was it just something that was given without any explanation? MR SHABALALA What I can say is that I think we were given the money because we had done a good job. That is what I think. MR KNIGHT But you were never told? CHAIRPERSON Did you regard this R500 as a reward for having killed the deceased? MR SHABALALA To me to be given that money shows to me that those who gave us the money seemed to think that we had done a good job. CHAIRPERSON On other occasions had you gone out on similar missions before? On previous occasions you had gone out to do some work for Vlakplaas had you not? MR SHABALALA You mean in other countries? CHAIRPERSON At certain occasions you would go out and go and work for Vlakplaas when you come back were you rewarded with money or something like that? MR SHABALALA No CHAIRPERSON So was this the first occasion when you were given a sum of money upon the return from your mission? MR SHABALALA It was the first time for us to come to Transkei yes. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman. Now you continued to work at Vlakplaas until its disbandment. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes I was working there until it was closed. MR KNIGHT Under what name did you work until its disbandment? Did you continue working under the name reflected in Annexure F? MR SHABALALA Yes I was using that name until Vlakplaas was closed. MR KNIGHT And from the last time you went to Umtata where the matter was postponed, the criminal matter you never heard about the Ndondo incident ever again? MR SHABALALA I never got to hear anything about this again. I proceeded working and I never got to hear about it again. MR KNIGHT And you never faced any form of enquiry or disciplinary hearing resulting from that incident or your activities at Vlakplaas? MR SHABALALA After the closure of Vlakplaas there was nobody who came to me talking about this issue. Nothing, nothing. There was nothing. MR KNIGHT Now in 1994 you in fact received a retrenchment package from the police. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes I got it. MR KNIGHT: You say in your statement on page 79 of the record that you were in fact congratulated by the then Minister of Law and Order, Mr Adriaan Vlok. Can you recall this and can you recall in relation to what it was that he congratulated Vlakplaas people? MR SHABALALA When he congratulated us because he used to visit Vlakplaas quite a lot of times and he would get reports from our offices there and hear what the Vlakplaas people was doing. That is why he was then congratulating us for work done. MR KNIGHT Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions in chief. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KNIGHT . CHAIRPERSON I suppose it is either you Mr Hugo or Mr Dilizo who would go first. Have you decided who is going to go? MR HUGO We haven't decided Mr Chairman but I am with the microphone in front of me I suppose it will spare us some time if I can proceed now. Then we don't have to play musical chairs and take a short adjournment. CHAIRPERSON Mr Dilizo do you have any objection if Mr Hugo commences his cross-examination of this witness? And then perhaps once he is finished you can take over? MR DILIZO ...(inaudible) CHAIRPERSON Yes very well thank you. Would you be in a position to proceed now? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO I am in a position to proceed. Thank you Mr Chair. Mr Shabalala how old are you now? MR SHABALALA 40, 45 I was born in 1956. CHAIRPERSON When were you born? MR SHABALALA 1956. MR HUGO Well Mr Shabalala then you are 42 years of age. Is that not so? MR SHABALALA I agree. MR HUGO Now what is your correct date of birth? MR SHABALALA 14th of May. MR HUGO Yes of which year? MR SHABALALA 1956. MR HUGO Just for clarity sake will you just look at Exhibit E that was handed in. Have you got it in front of you? MR SHABALALA Yes. I do. MR HUGO Mr Chairman I think he has Exhibit F in front of him. Exhibit E is the amended application. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR HUGO Mr Shabalala you will see there that you have set out your identity number in paragraph 4. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes. MR HUGO Is this your correct identity number or is this the forged identity number, the number that was obtained later by the assistance from Mr de Kock? MR SHABALALA I think the correct one is this one. This is the right one. MR HUGO Will you then just look at Exhibit F that is a copy of your identity book. And you see that the identity number there is exactly the same as it appears in Exhibit E. Do you agree with that? MR SHABALALA Yes I agree. I can see these numbers are the same. MR HUGO So are you then saying that your identity number was never changed by Mr de Kock? It remained the same throughout the years? MR SHABALALA I did not know this number. I did not know that they were the same. What I looked was the names and thought that maybe the numbers were not the same. Because this ID number was lost. I never got to see it. CHAIRPERSON Which ID got lost? MR SHABALALA The one belonging to Shabalala. CHAIRPERSON Which has the number at paragraph 4 of Exhibit E? MR SHABALALA Yes the one of Shabalala I did not know its number. CHAIRPERSON How was this number then obtained at paragraph 4? MR SHABALALA This number I got because I had this police ID. That is how they got to get this number. Because I did not have an ID. CHAIRPERSON The new certificate or the old one? MR SHABALALA The old one. CHAIRPERSON But I thought you were issued with a new appointment certificate as well. MR SHABALALA Yes I was given an appointment certificate, a new one and the numbers were not the same on the appointment certificate. I did not see that on the ID it is still (...intervention) CHAIRPERSON I think what counsel wants to establish is the documents that we have would seem to suggest that your names may have been changed but your ID number appears to have remained the same. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA As far as I can see I didn't think this one is an old ID. CHAIRPERSON Which one the one that is Exhibit E? MR SHABALALA Exhibit E. CHAIRPERSON Do you think this one belongs to the old ID? MR SHABALALA I don't believe it (...intervention) CHAIRPERSON You think this is the new one? MR SHABALALA I don't think this is that old ID number. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shabalala you see your new ID which reflects your surname as Mavuso bears the same number, the ID number that appears on your application form. So are you saying this is your new ID number? MR SHABALALA Yes I agree that I see it as I see it here. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Hugo. MR HUGO Thank you Mr Chairman. Just to clarify a further aspect. You will see on Exhibit E at paragraph 5 there you say your date of birth is the 14th of May 1957. This is now another date of birth that you giving us. Is that correct or not? MR SHABALALA May 14th? MR HUGO Yes but the year is it now 1957? MR SHABALALA No it should be 1956. MR HUGO So is this just a typing error? It should have been '56? MR SHABALALA Yes it must have been a typing error. MR HUGO Now Mr Shabalala I want to go back to the time when you re-entered South Africa after you had been in exile. Can you remember that you said that you came back voluntarily? MR SHABALALA Yes. MR HUGO Through which border post did you enter the country? MR SHABALALA Ermelo, Ooshoek. MR HUGO And is it correct that you then proceeded to go to Newcastle? MR SHABALALA Yes I went on my walks I proceeded to Maritzburg and then from Maritzburg I went to Newcastle. MR HUGO Yes and to which specific person did you report when you approached the police to say that you want to join them or alternatively that you have been in exile and you are now back in the country? Which specific individual did you report to? MR SHABALALA I do not remember the person's name any longer. I don't remember. MR HUGO Did you go to the charge office in Newcastle and just present yourself there or did you go to the security branch in Newcastle? MR SHABALALA I went to the security police in Newcastle. CHAIRPERSON Had you approached the police in Ermelo? MR SHABALALA It is the police at Ermelo that I approached and who then told me how and who I must proceed on moving with the police. CHAIRPERSON From Ermelo to Newcastle you were under police escort? MR SHABALALA Correct. MR HUGO So at Newcastle you were then introduced to the security policemen that were in charge of the security section there and what did they tell you to do or what actions did they take vis-a-vis your position? MR SHABALALA When I arrived at Newcastle there was white man who had arrived from Ladysmith who then questioned me this way or that way: when did you arrive, where are you coming from, did you arrive and so on. When he finished and he said when I finish there I must go on to Pretoria and talk to those at Pretoria. MR HUGO Were you detained or tortured during this experience that you had with this policeman that asked you these questions? MR SHABALALA Ja he did beat me from time to time but it was not very, very harsh. But it was not very tough. He did beat me from time to time. MR HUGO Who is this person? Can you remember? MR SHABALALA No I don't remember any longer. I stayed for a month. MR HUGO Did this particular person take a formal statement from you that was signed by you and signed in the presence of a Commissioner of Oaths? Can you remember whether you did that? MR HUGO I do not remember if he took a statement as to whether I had signed. I don't think I was required to sign. I don't think I had to sign anything. MR HUGO And why was it necessary for you to be kept in Newcastle for a month before you were sent to Vlakplaas? MR SHABALALA They were still writing my biography and what the story was generally where I had lived in exile and came to South Africa. How I had left South Africa what were the circumstances that lead to my coming back. They were asking all of those things. MR HUGO Yes that is what I was hoping you would tell us. You were aware of the fact that they were compiling a profile on you as an ex-member of the ANC or the PAC. Is that correct? MR SHABALALA Yes that is what they were doing during my stay at Newcastle. Requiring of me all details surrounding me and my history. MR HUGO Now you know it will become important later but let me put it to you at this stage already that. Let me rather ask you; were you aware of the fact that these summaries of people that were turned or became South African police sympathisers that used to be members of the ANC these summaries were then distributed to all the security force or security police branches in the country? Were you aware of that? MR SHABALALA No I did not know. MR HUGO Have they never told you that all the security branches in the country have your information on their files obviously to enable them to assist with searches and operations in their areas or jurisdiction? MR SHABALALA Can the question please be repeated? MR HUGO All that I want to know Mr Shabalala is were you aware of the fact that security branches all over the country had access to this particular file of yours? MR SHABALALA Yes. MR HUGO For instance this particular file of yours and Bra Mos would have the same and obviously Shosha as well they would be made available for instance to the security police at Barkley East. Were you aware of that? MR SHABALALA No I did not know that. MR HUGO Well let me put it to you that Mr de Kock will testify that the modus operandi used by the security police was quite simply that they would compile and prepare these files on askaris. That would then be distributed nation-wide and the purpose of that was to enable various security branches to ascertain whether an askaris comes from their area and whether they could use a particular askaris to identify suspected ANC members in their region. Were you aware of this particular method? MR SHABALALA No I did not know. MR HUGO But do I understand you correctly though that when you say that you spent a month in Newcastle that all this information was extracted and gleaned from you before you arrived at Vlakplaas? MR HUGO ... 62 of the bundle in front of us. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hugo before you put any further questions to this witness may I just warn you that we will adjourn at four. So whenever it is convenient for you, you can just indicate. MR HUGO Mr Chairman maybe this would be a convenient time. I am going over onto a different subject now so maybe it is convenient. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS .