amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-06-23 BOKSBURG 5 J H VLOK AM7888/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52704&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98061725_bks_boksbur4.htm MS VAN DER WALT Mr Chairperson, I call the next applicant, Mr J.H. Vlok. J H VLOK (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Mr Vlok, your amnesty application is in Bundle 1 from page 81 to 100 and Annexure B of page 214 to 232. Your amnesty application you submitted according to the Act, you completed it and signed it? MR VLOK Yes that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT In your application you mention that you were charged in the High Court, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT What happened in this case? MR VLOK The case was withdrawn on the 11th May 1998. MS VAN DER WALT And what were you charged with? MR VLOK For the Germiston bombing. MS VAN DER WALT And that is for that offence that you've applied for amnesty? MR VLOK Yes that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And you described what happened in full in Annexure A, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT You then went to Koesterfontein where you received instructions, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Who gave you these instructions and what instructions did you receive? MR VLOK Cliff Barnard gave me the instruction or order. He said that he received instructions from the Staff Generals that chaos must be created during the period of the elections in order to stop the elections, that the people will be prevented from going to the polling booths where they will take part in the election in order to force them to give a Volkstaat MS VAN DER WALT Did you then get an instruction to go to Germiston? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Nicolas Barnard gave the instruction to accompany Johan de Wet to Germiston. MS VAN DER WALT Is there anything else that you would like to add to your application as it appears in front of the Committee? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT Do you confirm the contents of Annexure A and B? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT You also heard the evidence of Mr Johan de Wet and where his evidence has got something to do with you, do you confirm that? MR VLOK Yes I do. MS VAN DER WALT No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MS CAMBANIS Mr Chair as it doesn't concern Bree Street, I will not have any questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MS CAMBANIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL Mr Vlok, page 85 paragraph 12, you just gave evidence that your case was withdrawn on the 11th May. It is not incorrect or in contrast with 12a, is the 11th or the 19th May? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, in May or the 11th May 1989, I appeared in front of them, they then withdrawn the case. Before that I appeared I think it was on the 19th May as well because it was also in May but in 1997. They then postponed it pending the amnesty and then with the last hearing they withdraw. MR KRIEL Page 88 you refer to your parents who brought you up in order that - and that different nations were created by God. Were you also part of this so called Israelis? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL To what church do you belong to? MR VLOK I'm in the Afrikaner Protestant Church. MR KRIEL You became involved in the AWB when you were approximately 17 or 18 years old? MR VLOK Yes that is correct. MR KRIEL And you were approximately 20 years old when you started serving in the AWB Headquarters in Ventersdorp? MR VLOK Yes that is correct. MR KRIEL And you were trained and you were the personal bodyguard of Mr Terreblanche? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL You were very close to Mr Eugene Terreblanche? MR VLOK Yes I worked for him. MR KRIEL You refer to an event where a meeting was held at the dam, paragraph 10, page 91. MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL When exactly was this meeting held? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember the specific date because it was so long ago and so many meetings were held during that period but it was the beginning of 1994. MR KRIEL You cannot say when? CHAIRPERSON Can you give us a year? MR KRIEL He said the beginning of 1994 Mr Chairperson. Who was present at that meeting? MR VLOK The complete Generals and staff that were called up to that meeting and were represented, the leader himself and members of the Volksfront were present there. I do not exactly know who it was, it was too long ago but I know that the Volksfront were also represented there. MR KRIEL Page 92 you make reference to the fact that you looked up to General Viljoen? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL You considered him as a very good military leader? MR VLOK Yes that is correct. MR KRIEL And that you believed in what he said? CHAIRPERSON Why did you consider him as a good leader? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, General Constand Viljoen, a retired General of the Defence Force - I'm talking now about that period there. CHAIRPERSON Please understand me, I'm not saying he was, I'm just asking you why did you think that he was a good leader? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, with his military background I believed that this person has got the ability to help our nation together with the Conservative Party so that he could lead us to freedom in order for us to obtain a Volkstaat and that is why I believed he was a good leader. ADV GCABASHE More so than Eugene Terreblanche? Did you believe in him and his ability to lead your people to true freedom more than you believed in Eugene Terreblanche's ability to that - to be a good leader? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I believed in all our leaders because I knew they had the integrity to lead us otherwise they would not have been placed there. CHAIRPERSON Now, you say, I would just like to have clarity here, you believed that these people would lead you to freedom? Were you not free at that stage? MR VLOK Please repeat? CHAIRPERSON Why did you think that you needed freedom in comparison. MR VLOK Could you just try again Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Why did you think that you needed freedom in comparison with what was available at that stage. MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, we went through a period just before the elections that we believed that if the ANC comes to power we will not get a Volkstaat and that we will lose our country. CHAIRPERSON Was that the only reason? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, as I just said to you and to add on to that I believed in a Volkstaat, that there can be a Volkstaat where my people and I under Boere leaders and religious people could be leaded in a place where we also had a say just as other nations has got a say. CHAIRPERSON Now please help me here, I was never a member of the AWB, I'm trying to understand this. For me, according to the evidence that I've heard so far it seems to me as if the AWB was established mainly to establish a Volkstaat, is that not true or am I wrong? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, the AWB was established in order to look after the interests of the Afrikaner Volk, the Boerevolk and one of the things that they wanted was a Volkstaat. Mr Chairperson at that stage it was a Volkstaat, yes. CHAIRPERSON Now how old is the AWB? MR VLOK Sir, at that stage it was approximately 21 years, I do not know now. CHAIRPERSON In other words it's around 1975 when it was established? Now what was wrong in the country at that stage that necessitated an organisation like that or the founding of an organisation like the AWB? Everybody knew then that Apartheid was at it's height. MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, the AWB was founded as a political organisation in order to provide for the needs of the Boerevolk. We would receive training - to prepare themselves because you also knew that the ANC at that stage were busy with active terror, they attacked farmers, certain acts of terrors occurred throughout the country and that is why the AWB was founded or established in order to resist this and protect ourselves in the then government of the day. ADV BOSMAN What I do not understand Sir,is that in 1975 the National Party was in power and the ANC was declared enemy of the government of the day. The government was controlling the Defence Force - then where did the AWB fit in, what exactly did they - regarding or in terms of their government, what did they resist? MR VLOK Could you please repeat? ADV BOSMAN In 1975, when the AWB was established or founded, the National Party was the government of the day - they were in control of the Defence Force with the ANC as a declared enemy - then why was it they would have been needed if it was against the ANC, I do not understand it. Did you have a problem with the government of the day at that stage? MR VLOK At that period of time I was not a member of the AWB so I cannot comment on that. CHAIRPERSON No, but when you became a member, you say when you were approximately 18 years old, the policy was not really different from what it was in the 1970's. What changed when you became a member? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, when I became a member of the AWB, there were various acts of terror across the country and attacks were launched at us as Afrikaners and the government of the day and I reconciled myself with the principles of the AWB and I wanted to be trained at that stage because at that stage I hadn't received any training and that is why I joined the AWB in order to, at the end of the day, also receive training and also reconcile myself with my people who feel the way I feel. The National Party at that stage was pro-ANC because the ANC at the beginning of 1990 were disbanded and made legal and at that stage there was already talk about the provision of voting rights and that would result in the fact that we would lose our country and that is why I reconciled myself with the AWB and they were opposed to this, that the ANC will come to power because then we knew that we would lose our land and it was during those times there was already affirmative action and various people lost their jobs - I could not find a job because of affirmative action before the elections. CHAIRPERSON You see, I don't understand it. In 1990 and 1991 negotiations started. The current President was still in jail. How did you think the land will be taken away at that stage when the negotiations were not even completed. MR VLOK Could you please repeat the last part of the question? CHAIRPERSON Why did you think that the land will be taken away, that all these other things would happen if the negotiations were still continuing in that time when you became a member of the AWB? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, the ANC was at one time an illegal organisation that committed acts of terror and attacked farmers who were innocent and now the government of the day sits down with them and negotiates with our enemy and that is why I could not reconcile myself with this. CHAIRPERSON And how did you think when the bombs were planted, what did you think that that was right, because that is precisely what happened and that is why we've got a hearing. MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, we received instructions to stop the elections, to prevent people to go to the polling booths to take part in the elections, we wanted the election to stop in order to enforce the then government to provide us with a Volkstaat. CHAIRPERSON That is why I do not understand it, one of the reasons that you've just given as a reason why you became a member of the AWB was that according to your evidence, it was the enemy, namely the ANC, who terrorised the country by planting bombs and to kill people etc., innocent people, you said. Now I understand that as you've just testified but when the AWB decided to plant bombs to stop the elections, is it exactly what was decided that you were opposed to in 1990. What was your position when it was decided to plant bombs and unfortunately, innocent people will also be killed and terrorise the country and create fear amongst the people in order not to go to the election polls. Was that not the same thing? What was your attitude? MR VLOK Chairperson, I absolutely believed, I thought that we also have the right to our own land and to be governed by our own people and to plant bombs and to kill innocent people. CHAIRPERSON In other words, in 1991 or 1990, when you became a member, was wrong for a certain party to do such a thing because in 1994 the AWB followed the same tactics. How did you feel about it at that time? MR VLOK Chairperson, at that time I wanted to be trained myself by my own people in order to act as an instructor later amongst my own people and to get my people ready to offer resistance against attacks which were launched. CHAIRPERSON Continue. MR KRIEL Thank you Chairperson. Let's go back. You looked up to Constand Viljoen, those were your words, correct? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. MR KRIEL And you believed in what Viljoen told you. MR VLOK Yes Chairperson. MR KRIEL Do you agree that what was put yesterday to Mr De Wet, that about the 12th March 1994, Constand Viljoen reconciled himself with the election and he took part in it? MR VLOK I do not know, Chairperson. MR KRIEL You do not know that Viljoen took part in the elections? MR VLOK Yes, that he took part in the elections I know, but I didn't know that he already registered at that time. MR KRIEL Do you agree with me that he took part in the election, his party was registered, it was one of the parties you could have voted for in the elections, he had posters put up. I believe it was the sign of the Freedom Front. MR VLOK Please repeat the question? MR KRIEL Were you aware that Constand Viljoen took part in the election? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson. MR KRIEL So he did not involve himself in the struggle, he formed part of the elections? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson, but whether he had a double agenda, I do not know, I was not involved with the planning. MR KRIEL But here's a man who you held in high regard, he was a leader you believed in. Why did you not follow him? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I was a supporter of the AWB and I reconciled myself with the objectives of the AWB and therefore I went, which I believed was the right way and that the elections had to be stopped and that we had to enforce a Volkstaat. MR KRIEL Here's a leader that you held in high regards, why did you not join him in the elections? MR VLOK Chairperson, because I could not reconcile myself with taking part in the elections. MR KRIEL Paragraphs 12 - 16 you mention a meeting which was held and at which there were several speeches made. If I understand your evidence correctly, one again you were only a guards, you did not really take part in the meeting. MR VLOK That's correct, Chairperson, I was a guard. MR KRIEL So you did not take part in the meetings and everything that's written here from paragraphs 12 - 16, is everything hearsay evidence, you were not there yourself? MR VLOK I was there. I know about all these proceedings and the speeches which were made, we were in the vicinity of the speeches being made. MR KRIEL And also the closed or secret one - after the closed one was finished? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson. MR KRIEL How did you form part of the closed meeting or the secret meeting? MR VLOK Chairperson, it was on an open air piece of ground, that's where the meetings were held and you could hear what was said but you were not present all the time because you moved around so you would have moved out of earshot, you couldn't hear what was said all the time and during consultation with my advocates we received some more clarity about this whole matter in order to bring the truth to the panel. MR KRIEL But that's the whole point I'm trying to make, sir. You did not hear personally at the meetings, only afterwards you heard it from other people, is that correct? MR VLOK No, Chairperson, I was aware of all these things. MR KRIEL Page 92 - Mr Barnard - was he a member of the AWB or was he member of the Ystergarde? MR VLOK Yes that's correct. MR KRIEL Which rank did he have in the Ystergarde? MR VLOK Cliffie was a Captain in the Ystergarde and a Colonel in the Wen Kommando. MR KRIEL And in the AWB structure in Ventersdorp? MR VLOK There he was my senior, Chairperson. MR KRIEL What was his job there at head office at Ventersdorp? MR VLOK He was a colonel, he was addressed as a colonel and his instructions were that he did correspondence and he worked closer together with Terreblanche himself and he also performed other tasks which were given to him by the leader or by the generals who were there. MR KRIEL Let's move to paragraph 26 - that's page 97. The men were taken to the game farm in Magaliesberg. From there the members would have had to protect the borders of the future Volkstaat as well as the farmers during the coming elections, is that correct? MR VLOK That's correct, Chairperson. MR KRIEL So that's why you went to the game farm? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson and also that further instructions would be given later on. MR KRIEL No, the impression I've had all the time is that the group went to the game farm in order to protect the borders as well as the farmers in that vicinity - that was the main purpose? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson, but later we would have received further instructions, that's how Brigadier van der Merwe conveyed it. Further instructions would be given at a later stage. MR KRIEL Yes, there would have been later instructions but your first main instruction was, go to the game farm, protect the borders and protect the farmers in that vicinity, later you would receive further instructions? MR VLOK That's correct, Chairperson. MR KRIEL Why did you go to Ventersdorp? MR VLOK Sorry Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Why did you go to Ventersdorp or why did you think you were going there? MR VLOK Chairperson, we were told that we're going to make war in order to obtain a Volkstaat and it would be enforced and we'd demand it from the government of the day. CHAIRPERSON This is before you went to Ventersdorp, so you went to Ventersdorp to go and wage a war? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Who told you this? MR VLOK Chairperson, it was discussed at meetings. CHAIRPERSON You got a call up instruction saying you're going to Ventersdorp then you're going to go there, is that correct? MR VLOK I was at head office already, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And what was the reason that you were given why you'd go to Ventersdorp or why you're going to gather there? MR VLOK To wage war, to stop the elections and to enforce a Volkstaat. CHAIRPERSON And going to Magaliesberg was part of this instruction to wage war? MR VLOK It was part of the general plan. CHAIRPERSON So when you were told you were going to make war in order to enforce this Volkstaat, what did you think, what was going to happen. Are you going to plant bombs or are you going to wage a normal war? MR VLOK The way I saw it, Chairperson, was that acts of terror would be committed and if the army or the government of the day tried to force us to let go of the idea of a war we would have protected our country and the Volkstaat. MR KRIEL Mr Vlok, you said you went to head office from Ventersdorp. MR VLOK Chairperson, I was already at Ventersdorp. MR KRIEL Where? MR VLOK Ventersdorp, I worked at head office. MR KRIEL So you worked permanently at head office? MR VLOK Yes that is correct, Chairperson. MR KRIEL Day after day? MR VLOK Yes that is correct, Chairperson. MR KRIEL Office hours? MR VLOK Yes that is correct, Chairperson. MR KRIEL Who told you to go to Ventersdorp or to go to the game farm. MR VLOK I wasn't at the game farm, Chairperson. MR KRIEL Were you not called up? MR VLOK I was already in Ventersdorp, Chairperson, I was working there. MR KRIEL You moved up together with the men, where did you get together the first time, at the ...[inaudible]? MR VLOK That's correct, Chairperson. MR KRIEL Who sent you to the ...[inaudible] who gave the instructions? MR VLOK Leon van der Merwe. MR KRIEL And you were told that you did not have to go to head office the next day? MR VLOK No, Chairperson, I was tasked by General Leon van der Merwe to continue with my tasks whilst the others moved up to the game farm. MR KRIEL With your tasks at head office? MR VLOK That's correct Chairperson, to ensure the security of Mr Terreblanche and the head office and the personnel who was working there. MR KRIEL Okay, thank you. I also understood it in such a way the whole time you've been working in Ventersdorp, you were working there as a employee of the AWB? MR VLOK That is correct, Chairperson. MR KRIEL What was your monthly salary? MR VLOK Five hundred Rand. MR KRIEL Per month? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. MR KRIEL And your task was to protect the leader and the people at head office. You yourself was not called up as such? MR VLOK Chairperson, I was called up and Brigadier Leon van der Merwe told me that we're going to be part of the total struggle and war which would be waged. MR KRIEL That's the point, sir. At this time there's not a total struggle, people are being sent to Magaliesberg to the game farm in order to protect the borders of the country - of the Volkstaat and these were your words, paragraph 26. MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson, but at that stage I was tasked to ensure the security of head office and Brigadier Leon van der Merwe told me to be on standby in case other tasks were given to me. MR KRIEL So later he would have given you orders and the further task that he asked you to do was that you must accompany people from Ventersdorp to Koper Myburgh's farm? MR VLOK That's correct, Chairperson. MR KRIEL Sunday the 24th, this is according to paragraph 27 of your affidavit - you were at head office, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes I was in Ventersdorp, Chairperson. MR KRIEL What time did Koper Myburgh arrive there? MR VLOK Chairperson, I cannot actually remember the exact time but it was late morning or almost afternoon. MR KRIEL Was it round about 12 o'clock that day? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson, I cannot tell you exactly. MR KRIEL Now Koper Myburgh arrived there, Clifton Barnard arrived there and Etienne le Roux also arrived there? MR VLOK That is correct, Chairperson. MR KRIEL And you say if I understand you correctly that the AWB trailer was hooked to Mr Le Roux's vehicle? MR VLOK Yes that is correct, Chairperson. MR KRIEL So at this stage if those people wanted to build a bomb in the trailer and if they wanted to pull it to Germiston, they had the trailer, they also had Le Roux's vehicles which had a towbar on it, which could have pulled the trailer, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. MR KRIEL Now, can you think of a reason why Barnard, Myburgh and Le Roux went to de Wet and asked de Wet look, we need your car because you've got a towbar on your car? MR VLOK I wouldn't be able to say, Chairperson. MR KRIEL Would you agree with me that it's ridiculous because he had the necessary vehicle with the necessary towbar? MR VLOK At that stage I did not know what was going on and I would not be able to see who gave Jan de Wet his instructions. MR KRIEL If you look at the situation, Myburgh and Barnard, they had a vehicle, Le Roux's vehicle with a towbar and a trailer. Was it necessary to obtain another vehicle? That's the point I'm trying to make. MS VAN DER WALT Chairperson, Mr Le Roux testified, Mr de Wet testified, the representatives of the family had the bundles, they knew what was written in the applications - those questions were asked to Le Roux and de Wet - this applicant cannot answer those questions. MR KRIEL Chairperson, surely I can continue with my cross questioning on the basis I consider to be good? I noticed it yesterday and I kept that part of my cross questioning for this applicant because now he's making it difficult for De Wet. I do not want that he must say that he must say anything on behalf of de Wet but I want from him - or the point I'm trying to make is - here's the necessary vehicle, here's the trailer and in his eyes will he agree with me - I'm making the suggestion to him that it wasn't necessary to look for another vehicle. CHAIRPERSON Let's put it that way then. MR KRIEL Thank you. Sir, I put it to you then that as far you were concerned it was not necessary to make use of another vehicle because you have a vehicle with a towbar which belongs to Le Roux and Le Roux is together with Myburgh and Barnard? MR VLOK Please repeat the question? MR KRIEL As far as you are concerned, the way you saw it and also seen from the eyes of a reasonable person, it was not necessary to go and look for another vehicle because here you have a vehicle with a towbar and a trailer and Barnard, Le Roux and Koper Myburgh wanted to build a bomb in this trailer and explode it. MR VLOK Chairperson, at that stage I did not know the bomb was going to Germiston, so I cannot answer. MR KRIEL But the point is they did not need another vehicle, they had one? MR VLOK I was not at the game farm at all. I did not know that they were looking for a vehicle, I only heard it from the other people's evidence, Chairperson. MR KRIEL I'll leave that for argument, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Vlok, did you belong to the Wen Kommando? MR VLOK No Chairperson, I was a member of the Ystergarde. I had no rank in the Kommandos. CHAIRPERSON And the Ystergarde? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What were you? MR VLOK I was a Captain. CHAIRPERSON Sorry? MR VLOK A Captain, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON In the Ystergarde - from whom would you have received instructions? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I would have received orders from a co-captain and officers above me and if needed that I must receive instructions from other officers that was placed in control of a specific task or operation then I would have received it from them. CHAIRPERSON The order to accompany people to the farms etc., in what capacity did you do that? MR VLOK Brigadier Leon van der Merwe told me that I must take all the people who arrived late to Koesterfontein. CHAIRPERSON At the office - what type of work did you do there? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I did security work, I was Commander, guard Commander - I placed the guards around head office as well as the leader's house and the guarders house next to it. I did paperwork and other orders that was given to me I also had to follow that. CHAIRPERSON By going to the post office etc? MR VLOK Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON To accompany people to the farms - was that one of those instructions, office instructions? MR VLOK Chairperson, that was what Brigadier van der Merwe told me when we left to the game farm - he said that I must accompany the people to Koesterfontein. CHAIRPERSON What type of order was that? MR VLOK It was an order from my Commander. CHAIRPERSON But the way I understand it is that the Ystergarde was mainly people who protected the leadership. MR VLOK That is correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON This instruction to accompany people to the farm was not one of the duties of the Ystergarde would do you agree with that? It was not a protection job but rather just to show people where to go - if I understand you and correct me if I'm wrong? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, at that stage it was an order from Brigadier Leon van der Merwe that I'd followed. CHAIRPERSON But it was not an order to a member of the Ystergarde surely? MR VLOK At that stage it was because it came from my Commander but it was not the type of work that the Ystergarde did. CHAIRPERSON You were not asked to do something within your capacity as a member of the Ystergarde? It was not protection work? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, we not only did security, we were also responsible for training and any other tasks that was given to us by our officers. CHAIRPERSON But wasn't it one of your tasks or duties that would fall under your office duties and that is to accompany people to the farm? MR VLOK It was told to me Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But the Ystergarde was a special and elite group of people, is that not true? MR VLOK Repeat please? CHAIRPERSON The Ystergarde was a special unit, is that not true? MR VLOK Yes Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON It was an elite group? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And if I understand the evidence they mainly protected the leadership of the AWB, they also did certain training courses for new members etc? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Their work was not to go to the post office, to do paperwork, to go accompany people to a specific place etc., is that not true? MR VLOK In general, no, but if you do get that instruction you must do it. CHAIRPERSON But to accompany people to a certain place was more in the line of office work, is that not true? MR VLOK Not at that stage, Mr Chairperson, because at that stage people were called up to the Western Transvaal in order to protect the Volkstaat and to enforce or command this Volkstaat from the government of the day and to stop the elections. CHAIRPERSON Did you ever go back to the office? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, everyday I continued with my daily duties CHAIRPERSON After you accompanied the people to the farm did you go back to the office? MR VLOK Yes I did. CHAIRPERSON When? MR VLOK Monday the 25th. CHAIRPERSON And when did you go there - to Magaliesberg? MR VLOK The 24th. CHAIRPERSON So the following day you went back? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What time did you take these people to Magaliesberg? The 24th, how late that day did you take the people? MR VLOK It was in the evening. CHAIRPERSON And what time did you go back to the office the following day? MR VLOK Early the next morning, I do not exactly know what time it was. CHAIRPERSON So it seems as if you just helped people to get to Magaliesberg but you were constantly at the office, so your work was at the office and no other place? MR VLOK My work was at the office, yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR KRIEL Sir, I would then like to go to the following point - the Sunday morning when Myburgh, Barnard and Le Roux arrived there - that was late the Sunday morning, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes it is. MR KRIEL And Koper Myburgh tells you that you must accompany him to Koesterfontein to help because they are busy to build car bombs, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes, it was an order on behalf of the Staff Generals. MR KRIEL That is what Myburgh said to you. Did you then go to Koesterfontein? MR VLOK Not at that stage, no. MR KRIEL You only later that day with the two Botha's you went to Koesterfontein? MR VLOK Yes that is correct. MR KRIEL That is the Sunday, Sunday the 24th, correct? MR VLOK Yes, it is. MR KRIEL And, if I can just interrupt myself there, how far is Ventersdorp from Koesterfontein and how far is Koesterfontein down to the farm in Magaliesberg? MR VLOK Koesterfontein to Ventersdorp, I cannot say exactly I think it's plus minus 80 kilometres. MR KRIEL From Ventersdorp to the Koesterfontein - from Koesterfontein to the game farm? MR VLOK I do not know, Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL Did you not go to the game farm at any stage? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL Did you know where the game farm was? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL Let me put it this way. What district is Koesterfontein? MR VLOK Magaliesberg area, Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL You and the two Botha's then went to Koesterfontein and met the others there and you said that the Sunday afternoon he was busy building a car bomb. In what car was he busy building this bomb? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, he was building a bomb on top of a table that had to be placed in the trailer. That is what Cliff Barnard told me. MR KRIEL In other words it was a normal bomb, it was not specifically a car bomb? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, I do not know anything about bombs. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kriel, if it was in a trailer or a caravan or a car, it was still a bomb. MR KRIEL If you say so Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON We know what this person is talking about. MR KRIEL The point that I'd like to make is that it is the trailer bomb that was being built because there is still a car bomb and that is the Jan Smit's bomb and that is the point I'd like to make. CHAIRPERSON But we know that this witness gave evidence about the Germiston bomb and everybody knows that it was in a trailer. MR KRIEL It was so yes, but he uses the word "car" bomb. CHAIRPERSON We do not want to split hairs now. MR KRIEL Koekemoer was building this bomb, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes that is correct. MR KRIEL Did you know Koekemoer before? MR VLOK Yes I did. MR KRIEL How long have you known him? MR VLOK At that stage, that is the Sunday the 24th, I knew that he was a member of the Ystergarde. MR KRIEL What rank did he have within the Ystergarde? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember, at that stage we did not carry our insignia or ranks but I assume he was a Lieutenant. MR KRIEL How did you know that he was part of the Ystergarde? MR VLOK Because I'd seen him at previous opportunities. MR KRIEL Did he wear an Ystergarde uniform, how long was he a member of the Ystergarde before this date the 24th? MR VLOK I do not know. MR KRIEL But Sir,you worked at head office. MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, at various meetings many members were present and you cannot remember all the faces or how long he's been a member of that organisation. MR KRIEL You were given instructions to mix diesel and a another substance? MR VLOK Mr Cliff Barnard told me to help him - he would use me, he would explain to me and give me instructions. MR KRIEL Nicolas Barnard said what to you, I'm sorry? MR VLOK Mr Cliff Barnard gave me the order or instruction to assist Mr Koekemoer and where he would use us or where he needed us. MR KRIEL When did de Wet arrive at Koesterfontein? MR VLOK I cannot remember Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL Was that the Sunday? MR VLOK Yes Mr Chairperson, that was the Sunday when he arrived. MR KRIEL Koekemoer, according to your evidence, showed you how to activate the bomb, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes. MR KRIEL There were two activation mechanisms, one at the towbar and one in the vehicle itself? MR VLOK That is correct, yes. MR KRIEL Was it the same type of detonator? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL Explain to me, explain to the Committee how you would detonate this bomb or activate it? MR VLOK He gave me a battery, he said that I must put one wire on the one pole and the other on the other pole and then the bomb will be activated or detonated. MR KRIEL Yes, but how? MR VLOK I do not know, I carry no knowledge about bombs. MR KRIEL But the point I would like to make, it was very simple, you've got two wires, you've got two terminals on a battery, you attached them to these poles and the bomb will explode? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL And you said the same mechanism was used at the trailer as well as within the vehicle that would pull this trailer? MR VLOK Yes, that is correct. MR KRIEL If it was so simple, do you think it was necessary to take someone extra in order to activate or detonate that bomb? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL Why? MR VLOK Because Jan de Wet was driving and my instruction was that I must detonate the bomb if we would meet up with a roadblock. MR KRIEL But, Sir,you could have activated from within a vehicle, that was the whole idea? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL So it was not necessary to take someone with? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, my instruction was that I must drive with Jan de Wet and I must accompany him to Germiston and also to operate the radio. MR KRIEL Did de Wet help to build the bomb? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, not as far as I can remember. MR KRIEL Look at paragraph 30. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kriel, are we talking about the same weekend? Is it the same weekend when this witness stayed overnight? MR KRIEL Would you please repeat? CHAIRPERSON Is it the same weekend that this witness stayed over the night at this farm, he was sent from the office, he accompanied the people and early the next morning he went back to the office? When did all of this happen? MR KRIEL That is the point I'm trying to make - as I understand the evidence, he was told on Sunday to go to Koesterfontein, he then went to Koesterfontein with the two Bothas. At Koesterfontein he helped Koekemoer to build this bomb in the trailer and the same evening if I understand him correctly, de Wet arrived there and the next morning, that is the point I'd like to make, the Monday before the Germiston bomb, left Koesterfontein. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR KRIEL No, Mr Chairperson, the point is that Koekemoer and this applicant then loaded sand in the trailer to help with the explosion. That is how I understood it and that is what I would like to clear up with the applicant. CHAIRPERSON Clear it up then. MR KRIEL Is this how I explained it, the occurrences, the sequence of events. The sequence of events was that on that Sunday, the morning, Koekemoer, Barnard and Le Roux came to you? MR VLOK Etienne le Roux, Barnard and Abraham Myburgh, they were there. MR KRIEL And Koper Myburgh gave you the instruction to go to Koesterfontein to go and help build car bombs. Later that day you left with the two Bothas to Koesterfontein? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL There you helped Koekemoer to build the bomb in the trailer. MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL And later that Sunday Jan de Wet arrived at Koesterfontein. MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, but he then again left Koesterfontein. MR KRIEL Okay, he left again. The following morning, the Monday, that is the day the bomb exploded in Germiston, Jan de Wet went back? MR VLOK To Koesterfontein, yes Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL To Koesterfontein and you hooked the trailer on the back of Jan de Wet's vehicle and Koekemoer gave you instructions to load extra sand in the trailer? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, the sand was already loaded in before Mr de Wet arrived. MR KRIEL Why is it then that contradictory to your statement? Look at page 99. MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, the trailer, myself and Etienne Le Roux and Cliff Barnard towed this trailer to a certain place where we loaded the sand. Mr Koekemoer helped us to load the sand on top of the bomb in order to give it weight, then Mr de Wet arrived where he hooked the trailer and Mr Koekemoer connected the wires in order for it to go to the front and that showed me that I must remove the wires when the trailer was unhooked in order to detonate the bomb. CHAIRPERSON Mr Vlok can you explain the contradiction, we heard what happened, can you please explain to us the contradiction, that's the question Mr Kriel is asking you. MR VLOK Put the question again please? CHAIRPERSON I put it to you that there's a contradiction but you asked me to repeat the question. Apparently, please understand, apparently there's a contradiction with what you said in your oral evidence and what's written in paragraph 30 of your application. All Mr Kriel wants to know or all he asked you is are you in a position to explain the contradiction to which he referred. Can you explain that or can you not. If you are in a position to explain this, please do so. Thank you. No, Mr Kriel, he does not understand what the contradiction is, could you please point it out to him? MR KRIEL If you read paragraph 30, the next day: "The Monday, we hooked this trailer onto the back of the vehicle of Jan de Wet. Koekemoer gave us an instruction to throw sand or soil on the bomb in the trailer to give it extra weight." So the point I'm trying to make is that Jan de Wet was present, he was there, he formed part of the loading of the sand into the trailer and in your oral evidence you said just now, a few minutes ago, that de Wet only arrived later after you've thrown sand on the bomb and that's when he arrived. MR VLOK Is that the contradiction? MR KRIEL That is the contradiction. MR VLOK Chairperson, this is how I saw it and during consultation there was more clarity about this event and that's when we consulted with our representatives, Advocate Louisa van der Walt that is, in order to get better clarity on this whole thing because I can't remember everything because things happened which I forgot about and therefore we consulted to get a better perspective on this whole case. MR KRIEL And specifically to remove these contradictions? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. MR KRIEL And did you tell her that this was contradictory? Did you tell her paragraph 30 is not correct? MR VLOK No, Chairperson, I didn't. MR KRIEL Mr Vlok, the loading of the sand into the trailer is quite an important issue, surely you can recall that? Give us the facts now as you remember them. Let's just make sure what is your version with regards to the facts. MR VLOK I was given instruction ....[intervention] MR KRIEL Sorry, I do not want you to speak about the instruction, I'm talking about the loading of the sand into the trailer, can you still remember it, can you see it? How you physically loaded the sand into the trailer. Where was the trailer, where was the vehicle? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson, how I remembered it is we hooked the trailer on Etienne's vehicle, we pulled it to the land where there was a lot of loose soil, we took spades and used the spades to throw sand on the back of the trailer. MR KRIEL You said it was hooked to Mr Le Roux's vehicle? MR VLOK Yes, we pulled it into the land. There's a road right next to the land, we unhooked the trailer and we unloaded the sand in there. MR KRIEL And you said it was Mr Le Roux's car who towed the trailer there? What kind of vehicle was it? MR VLOK I cannot remember exactly what vehicle it was Chairperson. MR KRIEL What colour was it? MR VLOK I cannot remember, Chairperson. MR KRIEL Why do you remember that it was Le Roux's vehicle? MR VLOK Because it was said there that it was Le Roux's vehicle. MR KRIEL But you do not know? MR VLOK I cannot say with certainty. MR KRIEL Why do you say things under oath which you do not know? That's the question. If you do not know that why should we believe anything else you say? MR VLOK Chairperson, that's how I saw it that it was Etienne Le Roux's vehicle. MR KRIEL Sir, so you drove with de Wet to Germiston? MR VLOK That's correct, Chairperson. MR KRIEL In paragraph 31 you talk about the fact that later on the radio you heard about the explosion in Germiston. Was that the car radio you're talking about which was in the car or were these the extra radios you were carrying to be in connection with each other or both? MR VLOK It was the car radio, sir. MR KRIEL So De Wet's car had a car radio in it? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. MR KRIEL So you could listen to the news on the car radio? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. MR MALAN You said "we loaded sand into the trailer" - who is the "we"? MR VLOK Me, Etienne Le Roux ....[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Give the answer in the light of what Mr Malan asked you - how do you remember the facts now - who are the "we"? Who took the car and the trailer to the land, who had the spades etc? MR VLOK Sir, Etienne le Roux was there, I was there, Cliff Barnard, Abraham Myburgh and Koekemoer was there. We hooked the trailer, we unhooked it. CHAIRPERSON Was de Wet there? MR VLOK No, Chairperson. We hooked the trailer, we drove then we stopped, we unhooked it, we loaded the sand in the trailer and at that stage de Wet arrived. He turned around his car, we stopped him, we hooked the car to this trailer. CHAIRPERSON Before you continue, did de Wet arrive there while you were busy loading the sand or were you finished? MR VLOK No, we were finished, we were standing there and then de Wet arrived. CHAIRPERSON And the trailer was still hooked onto Le Roux's vehicle when de Wet arrived? MR VLOK No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Where was Le Roux's vehicle? MR VLOK He pulled it away. CHAIRPERSON But was the vehicle there? Mr Le Roux's vehicle that is? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Why did you unhook it? MR VLOK Because instructions were given that Jan de Wet would tow the vehicle. CHAIRPERSON Who said that? MR VLOK Cliff Barnard, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you know that de Wet was going to come? MR VLOK We waited for him, Chairperson because he was tasked to come there. He was tasked to hook the trailer onto his vehicle because I was told to drive with them. MR KRIEL The contradictions in paragraph 30, when did you notice them? MR VLOK Now you mentioned it to me, Chairperson. MR KRIEL Not yesterday when Mr de Wet gave evidence? MR VLOK No Chairperson. MR KRIEL Did you not want to discuss it with your legal representative? MR VLOK No Chairperson. MR KRIEL At any stage were you arrested after these explosions? MR VLOK No, Chairperson. At a very later stage I was taken into custody. MR KRIEL When was that and how long were you under arrest? MR VLOK Please repeat? MR KRIEL When were you arrested and how long were you in custody? MR VLOK I was arrested - I can't remember exactly but I think on the 3rd August 1996, it was on a Saturday morning. I was detained in Germiston up until the Monday morning and then I was taken to the district court. MR KRIEL Two or three days? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson. MR KRIEL So at all times you had access to legal representatives and the legal representatives that's now supporting you? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. MR KRIEL In other words you were not behind bars, you didn't have problems making contact with people outside of prison? MR VLOK I was behind bar, Chairperson, for three days. CHAIRPERSON The Monday you got bail or what happened? MR VLOK Yes, I received bail. CHAIRPERSON And from that Monday up until the time you received bail, it's put to you that you were free, a free person and at any time you could have spoken to a legal representative? Now answer that please? MR KRIEL That was 1996 you said? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson. MR KRIEL When you were free. MR VLOK End of 1996. MR KRIEL Up until now? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. MR KRIEL And you knew about the chaos concerned with the Germiston bomb? MR VLOK Afterwards Chairperson? MR KRIEL Yes, the chaos which was caused by the Germiston bomb, the loss of life, the damage to the buildings which were destroyed, the vehicles? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson, I saw it on television. MR KRIEL And you knew people were injured at that explosion? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson. MR KRIEL Now I'm asking you the same question the Chairperson asked Mr de Wet yesterday. At this time did you try to make contact with any of the people who were injured or whose property was damaged or whose family members died? MR VLOK No Chairperson. MR KRIEL Why not? MR VLOK Chairperson, I acted in the interest of the AWB and I reconciled myself with the objectives in order to stop the elections and to enforce a Volkstaat for my people. MR KRIEL But in 1996 the election was long time finished. Why couldn't you approach these people - the elections were already finished for two years, it happened two years ago. MR VLOK I could have, Chairperson. MR KRIEL The ideals of the AWB - are they still close to your heart today? MR VLOK Sorry? MR KRIEL The ideals of the AWB - do you still consider them very important, are they still close to you? MR VLOK The ideals of the AWB - Chairperson, my mission is to continue with my life and I do not associate myself with any political party any more. MR KRIEL So when did you remove yourself from the ideals of the AWB? MR VLOK Chairperson, I now came to the realisation that our leaders are not prepared to support us and at that time we were just used as pawns in order to obtain their objectives. We were misused by them. MR KRIEL When did you come to this decision? MR VLOK I can't tell you exactly when but at this stage that's my feelings Chairperson. MR KRIEL Was it a month ago, a week ago, a year ago or a day ago or maybe an hour ago? MR VLOK No, Chairperson, my trust was still in Terreblanche and his Generals and staff and other leaders who were willing to give instructions at that time and I was prepared to fight and at this stage it's not the case - they are not willing to stand with us. They are not prepared to seek reconciliation and now I am now under the impression that these people would not support and assist us, Chairperson. I cannot reconcile myself with that any more. CHAIRPERSON When did this happen that you realised that you no longer want to be part of the AWB? MR VLOK Chairperson, just after the elections, when I was on the run. CHAIRPERSON That's four years ago round about? MR VLOK Yes, plus minus, Chairperson. MR KRIEL And in the four years after you've left the AWB and their ideologies and you didn't reconcile yourself with anything that the AWB stood for. Could you not have made contact with any of these people who were either injured or who lost family members or damage to property, couldn't you make contact with any one of them and say to them "I'm no longer with the AWB, I'm sorry."? MR VLOK No Chairperson, I did not. Afterwards, after the elections took place, I absolutely felt and I believed that the AWB would take responsibility and that they would also come to find reconciliation. MR KRIEL And in four years neither the AWB nor Mr Terreblanche came and said "we'd take responsibility."? MR VLOK No, Chairperson, not that I know of. MR KRIEL Cliffie Barnard - do you know what his position is? MR VLOK Chairperson, he is in prison. MR KRIEL Well with regards to the truth with regards to an application for amnesty, do you know what his position is? MR VLOK Chairperson, as was submitted to the Committee, Nicolas Barnard withdrew his Application for Amnesty. MR KRIEL We'll get there later. Koper Myburgh - he was also on the run after these bombs exploded - is that correct? MR VLOK I do not know. MR KRIEL Did Koper Myburgh continue to plant further bombs? MR VLOK Where was this, Chairperson? MR KRIEL Amongst others, in the Cape? MR VLOK I do not know Chairperson. MR KRIEL You have no knowledge of that? MR VLOK Chairperson, all I know of is what we heard now, that he was found guilty of those bomb explosions, Chairperson. At that stage I did not know. I do know now. MR KRIEL And did your advocate give you access to Bundle A which was submitted by Advocate Landman? MR VLOK I do not know which bundle you are referring to. MR KRIEL The advocate did not give you access to Bundle A? Mr Chairperson, I realise that it's almost eleven o'clock, there's a few points that I need clarity on - I don't know if it's maybe a good time to adjourn? COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION J H VLOK (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL (cont) In April 1994, did you believe in the AWB ideology of a pure race - is that correct? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, that every nation has got it's right to be governed by their own people. MR KRIEL Is that what race purity means or purity of race means? MR VLOK That is how I see it Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL And now, in 1998? Do you still believe in the purity of race? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, at the moment I am here in front of the Truth Commission to explain my participation in the period before the election in the revolution and to continue with my life and to get amnesty for it. MR KRIEL And now in 1998 - what is the borders of the Fatherland at this stage? MR VLOK Would you please put the question again? MR KRIEL Now in 1998, what is the borders of this Fatherland currently? MR VLOK Of what Fatherland? MR KRIEL That is what I would like to know from you. Your Fatherland today. Not the Volkstaat - the Fatherland? MR VLOK Could you please repeat again? MR KRIEL The Fatherland, the Fatherland now - what is the borders of the Fatherland now? CHAIRPERSON Does something like that exist for you? MR VLOK No, at this stage there's unfortunately not a Volkstaat or a Fatherland that is only governed by the Afrikaner Boerevolk. CHAIRPERSON You say unfortunately - are you still planning in the future to get something like that? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, but I believe at this stage that the ANC government will provide us with land where we can be governed by our own people and that is why I am in front of this Truth Commission in order for reconciliation and in the hope that the ANC government of the day will give us a piece of land where we can be governed by our own people. CHAIRPERSON And who will govern it? MR VLOK Please repeat? CHAIRPERSON What party will govern that piece of land? MR VLOK Will want to give it, Mr Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON No, I'm talking about govern. MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I do not know what party but it will be represented by the Afrikaner Boerevolk. CHAIRPERSON And if you do not get this piece of land? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, that decision rests with the ANC/SACP government that is governing this country at the moment. CHAIRPERSON But if they decide not to give that piece of land to you, what will your action be then? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, then I will discontinue with my life as it is at present. CHAIRPERSON And why did you not do that four years ago? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, at that stage my belief in my leaders and the AWB and I believed that they will be able to get us a Volkstaat. CHAIRPERSON What would have happened if there had been a better leadership? MR VLOK I would not be able to say, Mr Chairperson, I cannot say because that is not the case. CHAIRPERSON As I understand your evidence, your problem now with the whole ideal and the AWB is the leadership that abandoned you, is that correct? MR VLOK Amongst other things, yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What are the other things? I haven't heard what other reasons you've given because you're not a member of the AWB any more. MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, as I said earlier on, we were abandoned by our leaders and the top structures or we were given instructions rather to do these activities in the name of the AWB and we reconciled ourselves with them, we trusted them and the nation out there and now that we came to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, we asked for reconciliation and truth and now they're not prepared to stand with us and that is why I'm disappointed. CHAIRPERSON And is that the reason you're not a member of the AWB any more? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Is that the only reason or are there other reasons? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes what - is that the only reason? MR VLOK Yes, that is my reason. CHAIRPERSON What will happen then regarding membership in the AWB if a democratic election takes place within the circles of the AWB and the leadership or the leaders are someone else - in people whom you trust and not the people who abandoned you now? You say that the only reason why you are not a member of the AWB is because the leadership - that you are angry with them, with this leadership, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What is your position regarding membership of the AWB - what will your position be if there's changes or a complete change of the leadership of the AWB? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I will not be a member of any political organisation again because I believe that there's other methods to, if so, obtain a Volkstaat from the ANC government. CHAIRPERSON And what is that? MR VLOK Through negotiations because that is why I'm also here - to ask for reconciliation and to tell the truth about the deeds. MR KRIEL Thank you Mr Chairperson, that is all. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BRACHER Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Vlok, when you gave your evidence this morning, you said that you confirmed not only your own evidence but the evidence given by Mr de Wet yesterday, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER In so far as it affected you? Now you agree therefore that no one in the AWB ever issued an instruction for the killing of innocent civilians, which was Mr De Wet's explicit evidence two or three times yesterday? MR VLOK Could you please repeat? MR BRACHER Mr de Wet said two or three times yesterday that nobody in the AWB leadership gave instructions for the targeting of innocent civilians by bombs, due you agree with that evidence of Mr De Wet? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, because instructions were given by Cliff Barnard that we must detonate the bomb in Germiston and Mr Barnard did tell us that it came directly from the Generals and staff. MR BRACHER Do you want to add anything or is that the only instruction you know from an AWB member to target innocent civilians? ADV PRIOR Actually, that's a good point. MR BRACHER Was that Mr Barnard's instruction that you should target innocent civilians when you went out with the bomb on the Monday? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, his instruction was that we must go to Germiston in order to detonate the bomb and he there mentioned that it was the instruction that we must - to do acts of terror amongst the people who would like to take part in the elections and to stop the elections in order to force them to provide a Volkstaat. MR BRACHER Is that your answer? Did he tell you to target innocent civilians? MS VAN DER WALT That was not the instruction, that was not the target. He just said what the target was and what the purpose was. CHAIRPERSON I do not understand your objection? MS VAN DER WALT The witness was asked what was the order of Barnard, was it to kill innocent people and the applicant very seriously and clearly put it that the instruction was to plant a bomb in order to - as an act of terror - in order to stop the elections and that was his instruction. If the conclusions are made then it's another story but that was his instruction. CHAIRPERSON Could you then rephrase your question, Mr ...[inaudible] MR BRACHER Mr Chairman, I always know when I've got a good question when I get interrupted by Advocate van der Walt. I'm not rephrasing the question, I want an answer to that question - did Mr Barnard tell you to target innocent civilians explicitly. I'm entitled to an answer to that question, yes or no? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, Nicolas Barnard - and I say again what I said earlier on - gave me the instruction to go with the vehicle to Germiston to detonate the bomb there as an act of terror, that people must be killed in order to create panic amongst the people so that we can try and attempt to stop the elections and that a Volkstaat will be enforced. MR BRACHER Is that all he said to you about the target? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, I was not involved in the planning of the bomb, that was my order. CHAIRPERSON So including the instruction then it was also said that people must lose their lives? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER Okay now, that's what Barnard said to you, has anybody else said anything about targeting innocent civilians in the AWB leadership? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, people that talk about war and we went up to wage a war, to stop the elections and to force them to give us a Volkstaat and war talk - there was talk about a definite possibility of people who would be killed but the direct instruction that I received was from Cliff Barnard. CHAIRPERSON Concerning your own opinion, was there ever a possibility before you decided on war that this Volkstaat will be handed over, was that not one of the options in your own opinion? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER You see, you said in your evidence however "ons moet die mense verhoed om by die stembusse uit te kom" we want to prevent the people from getting to the polling booths. Now what did the Germiston bombing have to do with that, how did that prevent people from voting? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, it was said to us that the bomb would create so much chaos and panic that the people would fear to go to the polling booths. MR BRACHER Well they'd have a fear of going to taxi ranks in Germiston, that's all they'd fear from your bomb? CHAIRPERSON And perhaps to a bank. MR BRACHER Perhaps to a bank - why would that prevent them from voting? Why didn't you choose voting booths? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I was not part of the planning of the bombs, where they must be planted. MR VLOK No, but when you set the fuse you knew you were going to kill. When you put the battery and the two pieces of wire together you knew who you were going to kill - absolutely random, innocent people. Why did you do it? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I acted on behalf of the AWB and I believed that we will get a Volkstaat and that this bomb that I detonated would prevent people from voting in the elections. The elections would be postponed if possible. MR BRACHER But if that is your intention, why not target voting booths or something to do with the election? That's your best target if that's you aim? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, that was my instruction and I executed this order or followed this order. MR BRACHER Whose instruction was it to target random, innocent people in Germiston? It wasn't Barnard. MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I was told there at Koesterfontein by Cliffie that I must go with in the Germiston bomb - I wasn't part of the planning, I cannot give account for what was said. MR BRACHER Who chose the target? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I was not present - of where the bomb must be planted. CHAIRPERSON Who told you where to plant this bomb? MR VLOK Cliff said that it must be in Germiston and that Etienne le Roux will drive the guide vehicle to indicate specifically where we must plant this bomb. MR BRACHER Who told you that that was the point where you must arm the bomb? MR VLOK Etienne le Roux, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER Now, why in your application and in your evidence in chief did you hide the fact that you were a Captain in the Ystergarde? Would you like to look at it? It doesn't appear in your written application at all, it didn't appear in your evidence, it came out by chance in the cross-examination. MS VAN DER WALT With respect Sir,it cannot be said that he hid the fact - his evidence was that we're trying to save time - we confirm that was said in here and in this first question that was put to him what his rank was, he said - if it was not in his application it is not saying that he hides the fact. How can such a statement be made? CHAIRPERSON Mrs van der Walt, I do not know what form you used but if we look at the usual form, page 81, 82, question 7. MS VAN DER WALT It says a member of the Ystergarde, it did not say he was a Captain but it is a reason to say that he hid the fact. MR BRACHER ...[inaudible] MS VAN DER WALT Is this also not splitting hairs again - the applicant said that he was a Captain. CHAIRPERSON Let me put it this way - Mr Vlok, why is there any specific reason why you did not mention in your written application that you are a Captain of the Ystergarde? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER There was a reason because you wanted to give the impression that you were a simple of the Ystergarde taking orders from Koper Myburgh. He had no higher rank than you, did he? MR VLOK Please repeat the question? MR BRACHER The reason you hid the fact that you were a Captain was because you wanted to give the impression that you were an ordinary member, taking orders from people above you like Koper Myburgh who was not in fact of a higher rank? MR VLOK That is not the case Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER Is it correct that Myburgh was not of a higher rank than Captain? MR VLOK Are you talking about Abraham Myburgh? MR BRACHER Ja, what was his rank? MR VLOK He was a Captain. MR BRACHER And were you one of the lucky few to know what Barnard's rank was? MR VLOK Please repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON Did you know ...[intervention] MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, Cliff Barnard. CHAIRPERSON What was he? MR VLOK He was a Captain in the Ystergarde and a Colonel in the Kommandos. MR BRACHER Now one of the reasons you decided to join the AWB was because you were shocked by the fact that the ANC had attacked innocent Boere, is that right? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER Why were you shocked by that fact particularly? MR VLOK At that stage, Chairperson, the ANC was not yet in power and they caused acts of terrors in order to obtain their objectives and therefore I was shocked that they would have taken the lives of innocent people because in the process in which they believed was correct and therefore I also wanted to be ready - I also wanted to be trained in order to protect my people and to protect myself, Chairperson. MR BRACHER Now that's right - you wanted to be an instructor so that you can defend your people, is that right, against these attacks on innocent people? MR VLOK To train them to enable them to defend themselves against these attacks. MR BRACHER Yes, you wanted to instruct people how to defend themselves against these attacks on innocent people, is that right? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. MR BRACHER And you said in paragraph 4 "the courses entailed drills, baton handling, weapon handling etc." Paragraph 4 - that etc. does not include the making of bombs, does it? You had no instruction in the making of bombs because when you said you met Koekemoer you didn't know anything about bombs? MR VLOK Chairperson, Koekemoer himself did not know how to make a bomb, that's why Koekemoer asked me to help me mix the diesel and fertiliser. MR BRACHER The "opleiding" which the instructions and courses that you attended and gave on behalf of the AWB did not include the making of bombs, car bombs? MR VLOK No, Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. I don't quite understand you last answer, you say Koekemoer himself did not know how to make bombs, that's why he asked you to mix the diesel? That's what I picked up over the translation. Just repeat that? MR VLOK No, then I contradicted myself. Koekemoer was the man who built the bomb, he was the man with the expertise - that's what Barnard told me. Koekemoer was the man with the expertise and he makes the bombs and because of that he gave me instruction to help with the other men to mix the fertiliser and diesel. CHAIRPERSON What did you misunderstand with the question the lawyer asked you and then you gave another answer because now you've changed your whole answer? MR VLOK I don't know what I said before but that's what I meant Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON The previous time you said that Koekemoer himself did not know how to build bombs and therefore he asked you to mix the fertiliser. MS VAN DER WALT ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON I listened to his Afrikaans words. Mr Malan also says that I am correct, we heard you correctly the first time. All I want to know is - Mr Brasher's question now - what did you misunderstand and then you gave the wrong answer which differs so much with the answer you've just given now? MR VLOK Then I just contradicted myself, Chairperson and I apologise. CHAIRPERSON Let's accept that you contradicted yourself or what led to the fact that you contradicted yourself? What did you misunderstand, what did you understand with regards to the question Mr Brasher asked you? MS VAN DER WALT ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON I can't remember that. I think he asked to the effect - the instruction you were given to people did not include the making of bombs and it was only Koekemoer who was the expert when it came to the making of bombs, that was his question I believe and you yourself gave instructions to others, trained other people - you had no knowledge to the making of bombs? MR MALAN Chairperson, the answer in my notes is the following, he referred you to paragraph 4 of your statement and he read here about the nature of the training and he referred to the "etc" and he was asking if this "etc" also refers to the making of bombs whether he also received instructions about how to make the bombs and then said that you did not receive such an instruction and then he asked you your comment and then you answered that Koekemoer himself did not know how to make a bomb, he asked you to mix the fertiliser and diesel and when you were told that you said Koekemoer himself did not know, you said "well I must have contradicted myself then." Now the question is, did you misunderstand the question or try to explain why you said Koekemoer himself did not know. That's the point. MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, then I misunderstood the question and I did not hear him correctly because I know the Chairperson asked if it included bomb making and I said no, it was not included in the training, bomb making that is. CHAIRPERSON But what did you misunderstand, that's what I would like to know? MR VLOK Chairperson, if I have it right, there were two questions he asked. The first one was "was it included in our training?" and I said no and the second question I cannot remember. CHAIRPERSON What led to your answer - let me finish please - and what led to the fact that you said Koekemoer himself did not know how to make bombs? MR VLOK No, Chairperson, what I meant there was - what I understood was - the advocate asked me if - I do not know Chairperson, I thought he wanted to know why I helped with the making of the bomb. That's why I said my instruction was - and I received my instruction from Koekemoer but then I contradicted myself when I said that Koekemoer did not know how to make a bomb. Koekemoer was a trained man in civvy street with regards to these things. CHAIRPERSON I think this point will be properly dealt with in argument, Mr Brasher, we're not going to ...[inaudible]. MR BRACHER The way I phrased the question was that the "ensovoorts" couldn't have included the making of bombs because the first time he saw bombs being made was when he saw Koekemoer was making them or something to that effect but I don't need to go any further than that. Mr Vlok, when did you first know that General Viljoen was taking part in the election? MR VLOK Chairperson, I don't remember exactly when and I am speaking under correction and I do not want to lie, I do not want to dare giving you an answer - it was at the election and the fact that he actually took part, so let's say the day he took part in the election. CHAIRPERSON You were at the office of the AWB is that not true? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did the office of the AWB not know at least a week before the election that Viljoen was going to take part in the elections? MR VLOK They should have, yes. CHAIRPERSON How come did you not know? MR VLOK I cannot remember, Chairperson. MR BRACHER Mr Vlok, I want to tell you that I don't believe you because everybody has given evidence that the AWB is not just an army, it's also a political organisation and I cannot believe that you could go through this time of preparing for war without taking notice of what was going on in the politics of this country and if that is your answer, tell me that is what you did. MR VLOK Please repeat? MR BRACHER Let me just start it again. I'll put it simpler to you - are you telling this Commission that you moved from being an ordinary office worker of the AWB to bombing innocent civilians without keeping track of the political events in this country? MR VLOK I don't know if I understand you correctly but my answer is I had instruction which I had to execute and I acted on behalf of the AWB and I committed this act. MR BRACHER If your instruction was to prevent the election did you go ahead with your activities without knowing what was going on in the election down to the most basic thing as to who the candidates were? MR VLOK Chairperson, I knew who the candidates were, unfortunately I cannot remember all of them but I continued with my instruction because at that stage it was my instruction and I executed it in the name of the AWB - it was to stop the election and to enforce a Volkstaat. CHAIRPERSON But Mr Vlok you've just said that you cannot remember if you knew or if you knew it was at the moment of the election that Viljoen decided to take part in the elections. Now you are saying you knew who the candidates were but you can't remember who all of them were but surely the name of Viljoen, you must remember that, you must remember whether he took part in the elections? MR VLOK That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So what's your position, did you know or did you not? MR VLOK I did know Chairperson, but I can't remember the exact date. I think the question earlier was when, I cannot remember exactly when - it was shortly before the elections, it's then I realised Viljoen would take part in the elections because it was on the pamphlets and it was also on television news. CHAIRPERSON Now before we speak of Mr Viljoen - without trying to make a suggestion that it's not true, each of the applicants came here and testified and this includes you, to the effect that the fact that Mr Viljoen decided to take part in the elections, the AWB was not certain whether he had a double agenda and you continued because the possibility still existed that he would also take part in the war, can you remember that? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now was that aspect discussed amongst your co-members, did you discuss it with anyone that this is the possibility - maybe he's taking part in the elections but we know that there's a good possibility that he's also going to take part in the war at the same time. Did you discuss this with anyone? CHAIRPERSON Yes, Chairperson, I didn't physically discuss it with someone but I know there was talk also at head office that there's a possibility, the doubt was there whether he is going to take part in the election - he registered. CHAIRPERSON Now who said that? MR VLOK Chairperson, I cannot remember the exact people but I know it was said at head office. CHAIRPERSON But that's quite important, Mr Vlok. The status of Mr Viljoen was discussed and what his capacity would be in the war or the election - it's two opposing tactics - why can you not say who told you this or who discussed this? MR VLOK The importance of the matter is, is that I acted on behalf of the AWB. CHAIRPERSON Yes we know that, Mr Vlok, I'm asking you a simple question. Why can you not say who discussed Viljoen's status in the whole affair at the head office? MR VLOK Chairperson, if I remember correctly it would have been General Andries and the leader himself must have been there, Chairperson, Eugene Terreblanche. CHAIRPERSON And Andries who? MR VLOK Andries Terreblanche. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR VLOK And definitely some of the female personnel who were working there at that stage but the importance for me is that even though he continued with the election and maybe didn't identify himself with us any more - the principle of the matter is, is that we identified ourselves with Terreblanche and his political organisation which is the AWB and we acted on behalf of them, we fought for them and the Conservative Party and the Afrikaner Volksfront formed a coalition and they would have also have offered their assistance so I continued to believe that there would be a Volkstaat and that war would be waged for that purpose and that's why we committed these acts and that's why we went there, in order to fight a war to obtain our Volkstaat. CHAIRPERSON If that's the case, why on one of Kriel's questions you answered "well he might have taken part or he maybe planned to take part in the election" but you thought he might have had a double agenda? MR VLOK That's how I saw it, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you are saying it didn't matter to you whether he was part of it or not. MR BRACHER You see, Mr Vlok, that's exactly the point. The key to getting the army involved was General Viljoen and by the time you arrived there or by the time the AWB members arrived there on about the 14th April, you knew that that was no longer a possibility because you knew by then General Viljoen was taking part in the election, is that correct? MR VLOK No, Chairperson, I told you that I cannot tell you exactly when but at that stage, I knew that it was said by General Etsabeth at the Trimpark and he said that the army, in co-operation with the police, would also lend us assistance. MR BRACHER MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I believed that General Viljoen would assist us because he talked about thousands of men who he had available to provide or to assist us, the AWB, to reach this goal of ours. Please repeat the second part of the question? MR BRACHER I said that was the key to the whole movement -was General Viljoen with his military background leading you with the help of the army to your Volkstaat. By the time you arrived there on the 14th, by the time the AWB arrived to gather on the 14th April, that was no longer a possibility because he was part of the election. MR VLOK At that stage I did not know that, that he was already part of the election. MR BRACHER Well then you didn't take any notice of what was going on in the election that you bombed people about, is that correct? MR VLOK I was aware what was going on. MR BRACHER Mr Vlok, if we're to believe your evidence, you killed innocent people without knowing anything about the political events of major importance in this country. MR VLOK But Mr Chairperson, my instructions were given to me by my officers. CHAIRPERSON Let me put it as follows, Mr Vlok, as I understand your evidence, you did not know of what was going on politically and in this country just before the election -that was war and that is it, is that correct? What would have happened if the government of the day said to the AWB "here, take your Volkstaat" - you would not know about it, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes, we would have. CHAIRPERSON How? MR VLOK I believe that our leadership, our Generals, would have conveyed it to us as the message just came to us. CHAIRPERSON But you worked in the office - would you not have known about it? MR VLOK I would have, yes Mr Chairperson and I believed an instruction would be given to me. CHAIRPERSON Did you know everything that was going on there regarding politics when you worked there? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Especially where it was about the AWB? MR VLOK Yes, more or less I knew everything that had to do with the AWB. CHAIRPERSON When Mr Viljoen decided that he was going to take part in the elections, did the whole world, basically the whole world took note of the statement that he made and in the AWB office they did not know about it? The day when he made this announcement. MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, they did know about it. CHAIRPERSON You know about it? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So, you knew? MR VLOK That he was going to take part - yes. CHAIRPERSON And that is the day when he announced it? MR VLOK Yes, but I cannot remember the specific date. CHAIRPERSON But that was weeks before the election? MR VLOK I cannot remember, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Before the meeting or the whole operation did you then know that you will not have the support of the whole Defence Force? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I was under the impression that the Defence Force will be present because General Etsabeth said that the Defence Force will assist us and that they will provide us with equipment and armoury. CHAIRPERSON That person, was he a formal member of the Defence Force or was he an AWB General? MR VLOK No, he was an AWB General. CHAIRPERSON So the whole point is that a person who would guarantee the assistance of the Defence Force and that was Mr Viljoen and now he left, he went to go and take part in the election in the Cape? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I assume that if he will not provide us with the weapons or with the Defence Force assistance, it would be through the AWB that we could get this and the decision rests with the command structure of the AWB what to do further if General Viljoen did not identify himself. CHAIRPERSON And how many soldiers would that be? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I assume and I believe it would be forty thousand men. CHAIRPERSON Now the AWB is without the Defence Force assistance, how many soldiers would put this Volkstaat in place? MR VLOK I do not know because I wasn't part of that planning. MR BRACHER Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Vlok, the last answer you gave me, I'm not letting you get away with. You said "I received instructions from my officers". We know that you didn't get instructions from any officers - you merely had conversations with people of equal rank to you - Myburgh and Barnard - is that correct? MR VLOK Repeat the question please before I can answer it? CHAIRPERSON Your last answer to me was that you worked on instructions from "my offisiere" but you did not have instructions from any officers senior to you, you had conversations with Barnard and Myburgh who were both Captains in the Ystergarde - equal rank to you - is that correct? MR VLOK No Mr Chairperson, I received an instruction from Cliff Barnard to assist them. MR BRACHER How do you get an order from somebody of equal rank? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, he was my senior, he was there longer at his office and I, because he had the rank of a Colonel in the Kommando, I also saw him as a higher officer. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps in fairness to the witness we must accept that this wasn't a conventional army - some strange ways of communication. MR BRACHER The evidence was they had structures of military as well. CHAIRPERSON Well not the way we understand it. MR BRACHER I'll leave it to argument. Mr Vlok, I want to get from you the time when you went from defence to attack and you answered Mr Kriel's question here that when you gathered at the Wildsplaas it was still for the purpose of defending the Volkstaat. CHAIRPERSON He went to the Wildsplaas. MR BRACHER No, no, at that time when "at that stage when the men were taken to the game farm, I was served to protect the leader and his family" and so on. You said that when the people were called to gather in the Western Transvaal, they gathered to defend the Volkstaat and your answer to that was you were also awaiting further instructions at that time - is that correct? MR VLOK That is correct, yes. MR BRACHER And the first instruction you got to go on an attack was on Sunday 24th April 1994, you say you were instructed by Mr Barnard? MR VLOK That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER Now, there's a huge gap here, between those two events had you heard nothing at all about the Bree Street bombing? MR VLOK Repeat that please? MR BRACHER Well let me put it more simply, had you - before you received instructions to go to Germiston, had you heard anything about the Bree Street bombing? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, when Abraham Myburgh gave me instructions to go to Koesterfontein, he said to me that they were busy with the building of the bomb, they said that they set off a bomb in Bree Street. MR BRACHER And did you know then that the AWB had not taken responsibility for that bomb? MR VLOK At that stage, no. MR BRACHER Put it the other way round - you hadn't heard that the AWB had taken responsibility for that bomb, publicly? MR VLOK No, they did not take responsibility as far as I know. MR BRACHER We're now on Sunday 24th April, 1994. Your war is now on the go, isn't it? You're fighting this election? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER Now, you were gathered in by Myburgh in Ventersdorp by the Gardehuis, is that right? MR VLOK That is correct, yes. MR BRACHER Now, in the midst of this war of yours, I presume there was lots of Generals from the AWB in Ventersdorp? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, they were at various bases. MR BRACHER Were there Generals in Ventersdorp at the head office of the AWB? MR VLOK Yes, General Nico Prinsloo and General Andries Terreblanche. Concerning Generals? MR BRACHER Yes. MR VLOK Concerning Generals - no it was only Andries Terreblanche and Nico Prinsloo. MR BRACHER What officers were there, senior to you? MR VLOK General Nico Prinsloo was the Secretary General and above him the leader himself, Eugene Terreblanche. MR BRACHER They were all present in Ventersdorp on Sunday 24th April at the head office? MR VLOK I do not know, no Mr Chairperson, not as far as I can remember. MR BRACHER Mr Vlok, who was running this war from your head office? MR VLOK Chairperson, there was a radio room in the Gardehuis and from there they communicated with the Kommandos and they did the work there. MR BRACHER Now when you were told by Myburgh to go and bomb innocent civilians did you take it upon yourself to ask any senior officer of the AWB in Ventersdorp whether this was now the policy of the AWB? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, when I received the instruction that I had to execute, I knew I'm doing it in the name of the AWB and I did not question the decision of a senior officer and officers that was conveyed to the people at grassroots level and to myself. I did not doubt it, doubt their decisions because I trusted them. CHAIRPERSON That is precisely the point that is made. The policy of the AWB, as I understand it, was not to put the people's lives in danger, is that not true? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, that was war. CHAIRPERSON We're getting there. The changes in that policy was to put people's lives in danger. What Mr Brasher is asking you is that you thought it good to ask someone in the top structure "have we changed our policy now?" MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, because I did not doubt their integrity. MR BRACHER Thank you Mr Chairman. I'm now moving on to paragraph 28 of your...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Brasher, you want to leave that point - I just need certain clarity on this point - the question was put to you when you took note or when you realised that you are going to plant bombs indiscriminately, did you not ask anyone if the policy changed or why it changed? Are you busy telling us that it was normal for you, you did not see it as strange? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I knew that it was war, that the elections must be stopped and that a Volkstaat must be enforced and I believed that there will or we will get a Volkstaat at any cost. CHAIRPERSON So are you telling us that you knew earlier on that anything could happen before you received the instruction? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, because at the Trimpark Brigadier Leon van der Merwe said that we must protect this Volkstaat at any cost. CHAIRPERSON Did you then decide that it includes bombs? MR VLOK It could have been anything, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you think that? MR VLOK Not at that stage, no Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But it appears to me as if it was no surprise to you when you heard that you have to plant bombs amongst innocent civilians. Didn't it seem strange to you? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, because I knew it could entail anything. CHAIRPERSON And you were willing to do it out of your own? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I would not have done it out of my own, but in the name of the AWB I would have done it and in the interests of that which I believed in. CHAIRPERSON I do not want to know why you did it, I want to know what your attitude was. If you were the leader of the AWB at that stage, wouldn't it have been strange to you to come forward with such a policy in order to stop the elections? Is that what you're saying to us because it appears to me, while all the other applicants gave evidence that it was a change, for you it was as if nothing changed. Why would that be? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, it was a change but I expected that anything will happen, I expected that the government of the day who was in power would act against us and that we had to protect ourselves and our Volkstaat for the reason we were there. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Brasher. MR BRACHER Mr Vlok, paragraph 28, you talk about two Bothas who went to Koesterfontein with you. As I understand it those two Bothas were not involved in building bombs or were they? MR VLOK No Chairperson. MR BRACHER How many other member of the AWB who were on Koesterfontein who weren't involved with building the bomb? MR VLOK It was Etienne le Roux ...[intervention] MR BRACHER No, no, he was involved with building - how many people were not involved with the bomb who were on Koesterfontein. You were told to take anybody who arrived late to Koesterfontein - how many people turned up there? MR VLOK Koesterfontein? MR BRACHER Ja. MR VLOK The ones who came with me? MR BRACHER Later that day - that's Sunday 24th April. Later that day together with two Bothas "we went to Koesterfontein, other AWB members were there who were not involved in building the bomb?" MR VLOK None. MR BRACHER What happened to the Bothas then? MR VLOK They were accompanied to the game farm. MR BRACHER So the only people on Koesterfontein building bombs was Barnard, Myburgh, yourself, Le Roux and Koekemoer -and de Wet who arrived later? MR VLOK Yes Mr Chairperson, de Wet arrived later. It was me, Etienne, Cliff, Abraham and Koekemoer. MR BRACHER Why do you suppose it was done in such secrecy away from the general membership of the AWB? MR VLOK I do not know because I did not take the decision that Koesterfontein would be the place where the bombs would be built. MR BRACHER You were building a bomb - did it ever occur to you why is this being done secretly away from the general membership of the AWB who have come to fight this war? MR VLOK Everybody was placed at different bases and I believe this was the base pointed out to them where they should do their job. MR BRACHER But you see, you were told to bring latecomers to Koesterfontein and as soon as they get there, they're taken away somewhere else and there's a small group of bombers left. Now did that not occur to you as strange? MR VLOK Repeat the question please? MR BRACHER Let me divide it up. Your instruction was to take the latecomers to Koesterfontein. Two of those we know were the two Bothas but the latecomers aren't kept on Koesterfontein and they're immediately taken somewhere else leaving five bombers on Koesterfontein, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson. MR BRACHER There's no general AWB gathering on Koesterfontein? MR VLOK No, Chairperson. MR BRACHER Didn't it strike you as strange that you were doing this away from the general gathering of the AWB soldiers coming to fight this war? MR VLOK Please repeat? MR BRACHER Did it strike you as strange that this was done secretly on Koesterfontein away from the general body of AWB members? MR VLOK No, Chairperson, because I accepted and I assumed that they knew what they were doing because I was not there when the decisions were taken about where this would be done. MR BRACHER Mr Vlok, is it fair to summarise what you say -you didn't think about anything, you just simply took orders from anybody at all - even people of equal rank? MR VLOK Please repeat? MR BRACHER I said is it fair to summarise your evidence that you didn't think about any decisions, you simply took orders even from people of equal rank? MR VLOK Chairperson, I received my instructions from them, I took it from them because they were placed in control of the operation and that's why I took my orders from them. MR BRACHER I'll leave that to argument. The last sentence of paragraph 28 "after the bomb was placed in the trailer we placed loose iron on top of this bomb for maximum effect - injury and damage". Did you know you were going to bomb innocent civilians? MR VLOK Chairperson, I did not build it, I only assisted where it was necessary. MR BRACHER Mr Vlok, take it from me that putting loose pieces of metal on top of a bomb is building a bomb. MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. MR BRACHER When you were building the bomb for maximum damage, injury and death, did you know you were going to target innocent civilians? MR VLOK Chairperson, that was my instruction and I executed it. MR BRACHER Did you know you were going to target innocent civilians when you put the "los yster" on the bomb? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson because Barnard informed me. MR BRACHER That you were going to target innocent civilians in Germiston - that had already been decided, is that what you're saying? MR VLOK They already took the decision that Germiston would be the target and he explained it to me as such and he gave me the instruction that I would go with Jan de Wet. CHAIRPERSON When did he do this, after the bomb or before the bomb or whilst you were building the bomb? MR VLOK Whilst we were building the bomb. CHAIRPERSON Did you ask him about the use of the bomb which you were busy building? MR VLOK No, Chairperson, he only told me that would be the case and I obeyed the instructions and I did not in any sense doubt them, doubt the fact that they were in control of this operation, that they knew what they were busy doing. I do not know what the effect would have been of the bomb because I did not know bombs. CHAIRPERSON Mr Vlok, I must be honest and you must correct me if I am wrong, maybe I misunderstood you earlier - I definitely got the impression that you were informed that the target would entail the loss of life. It's when you discussed where the bomb would be planted, not whilst you were making the bomb, but if I'm wrong, if I misunderstand you, please tell me but I thought you testified to that extent earlier. MR VLOK Please repeat it again, Chairperson? CHAIRPERSON Earlier, I understood your evidence to be that you found out that the target of the bomb which was already built would include or entail the loss of life. MR VLOK Yes, that was discussed at Koesterfontein. CHAIRPERSON Now, as I understand your evidence, your earlier evidence, this was only discussed when you decided where to plant the bomb, not whilst you were making the bomb, but I concede I might be wrong. Please tell me - did you testify to that extent earlier or not? MR VLOK I did testify to that extent but what I meant was that whilst we were at Koesterfontein and at Ventersdorp itself and I received instructions, I knew that the bombs which were going to explode would possibly include the loss of life and when we got to Koesterfontein, Cliff gave me the instruction and told me to assist Koekemoer ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Vlok, I'm not talking about that - I'm talking about the time you were informed. MR VLOK What time are you talking about, are you talking about the Trimpark? CHAIRPERSON That's what I want to know from you - I'm talking about the time when you were informed that loss of life is a necessity. MR VLOK That happened at Koesterfontein, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Not later when you discussed about where you'd plant the bomb? MR VLOK No, the decision about where the bomb would be exploded was made beforehand. I was only instructed that it should happen in Germiston, Chairperson. MR BRACHER Mr Vlok, you haven't quite answered my question yet. I know you knew it was going to Germiston - I want to know if you knew it was going to target innocent civilians when you were that Sunday afternoon on Koesterfontein because you can go to Germiston, you can bomb an empty police station, you bomb a government building, you can bomb an electric pylon, you can bomb a voting booth with nobody in it. So Germiston's not good enough, did you know it was targeted for innocent civilians in Germiston when you were building it on the Sunday afternoon? MR VLOK Chairperson, the planning was done beforehand that the bomb would go off in Germiston and I executed my instruction as I received it, I did not have a choice about where the bomb would explode. MR BRACHER ...[inaudible] choice, I'm only asking if you knew on the Sunday afternoon it was going to target innocent civilians? It's yes or no, it's not a difficult question. MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson, the Sunday evening of course. MR BRACHER ...[inaudible] MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. MR BRACHER Now, this is the very thing that you hated about the ANC that they targeted innocent civilians, you had the whole night to think about it, did you try and get in touch with any General or other leader of the AWB to find out about this change of plan? Change of policy? MR VLOK No, Chairperson, I did not contact any other Generals because I executed my instruction and I knew that these people were in charge of that operation because they had the ability to accomplish that. MR BRACHER Now I'm coming to your next act, you're now in Germiston and you're about ...[inaudible] MR MALAN Excuse me, Mr Brasher, I just want to pursue this just to understand his mind set at the time. Mr Vlok you testified that part of the things that motivated you to act the way you did and to become involved was the fact that the ANC as you understood it killed innocent people, that's to say the farmers, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson. MR MALAN And you also testified and Mr Brasher put it to you, that you hated it - you absolutely hated the fact that they did that, that they killed people. MR VLOK No, I didn't hate it, my view was that I was there to stop the elections as we were told at previous meetings. MR MALAN I do not want to try and make connection between your acts - all I'm trying to find out from you and this is Mr Bracher's question - you thought that the ANC killing innocent people is acting very badly, maliciously and it shouldn't be that way - that's what I understood from you evidence or did you think they were doing the right thing by killing innocent civilians? MR VLOK No Chairperson. MR MALAN Did you think it was a bad thing to do, that they must be stopped? MR VLOK Yes, they had to be stopped doing that, yes I believed that and also that we had to have our own Volkstaat. MR MALAN No, I don't want to talk about the politics. This is the question - you are very unhappy about the fact that the ANC kills innocent people or were you not unhappy about it? MR VLOK Yes, I was. MR MALAN So how did you motivate yourself then that it's good enough for you to kill innocent people, because you realised this was going to happen? MR VLOK I identified myself with all the people who were with me and I was willing to wage a war together with them in order to stop the elections and to enforce a Volkstaat. MR MALAN If I can summarise it correctly, you are saying that if the ANC can kill innocent people that's bad but if we kill innocent people for our cause then it's okay? MR VLOK I did what I believed in. MR MALAN And what you believed in was that you can take innocent lives but the ANC cannot? MR VLOK No, Chairperson, I have as much right as him to take innocent lives in order to obtain my objective. MR BRACHER Mr Vlok, you've just given a very important answer, you said "I identified myself with the people I was with". Now those people were a group of four people, five people, is that correct? Barnard, Myburgh, Le Roux, de Wet and yourself? MR VLOK Not De Wet, no. Please repeat the names? MR BRACHER Myburgh, Barnard, Le Roux, de Wet and yourself? MR VLOK Koekemoer and myself, de Wet at that stage was not there. MR BRACHER de Wet helped with the bombing? MR VLOK To place it, yes. MR BRACHER Now, you now - the next morning, you haven't had a conscience overnight, apparently, you're driving to Germiston, you said in your evidence "I worked with the radio". Did you have some sort of radio communication in that car? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, yes. It was a Defence Force radio. MR BRACHER Who were you in communication with? MR VLOK With the ghost vehicle, the vehicle that drove in front. MR BRACHER Could you get in touch with your head office or not? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER But you could talk to the other Le Roux in the other vehicle in other words? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER Did he tell you on the radio about how he was going to go about choosing a target or how he would point it out to you? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER How did he point out the target to your car? MR VLOK He showed me by lifting up his hand and saying it's right because the radio at that stage - we could not get a frequency at that stage. MR BRACHER On his signal, you stopped the car and you're going to arm the bomb. If you look around you, you'll see innocent people who have nothing to do with any particular group as far as you know, is that correct. MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I saw the people but I was there to execute my order and I did it. MR BRACHER If you looked around you, you would have seen white people - for all you knew, they were members of the AWB? MR VLOK Yes Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER And did you not have second thoughts at that stage? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, because I believed that what I was doing was right, it was to further the interests for our Volkstaat. MR BRACHER When you look around you, did you see any State property? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, not that I could see, no. MR BRACHER No further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRACHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Mr Chairperson, may I just say that from the various families who are present, they have got various questions. I would try and put them together to this applicant, it's from the Zasi family and the Mashenini family. Mr Vlok, the head office was in contact with the game farm by radio communication, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, they were in contact with the radio operation room. MR PRIOR While you were at the head office, according to your knowledge, was there any contact between head office, the leader Mr Terreblanche and for example the game farm or any of the other bases that were established? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, Mr Terreblanche had access to the radio room. MR PRIOR I'm not talking about just access, were you aware of instructions, direct instructions that was conveyed with that radio? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson. MR PRIOR Mr Fourie was the Camp Commandant at the game farm, did you know that? MR VLOK Yes, I found out only later. MR PRIOR Before you left Ventersdorp, that is the evening or the day of the 24th, did you not know that Commandant Fourie was the camp commandant in that area, Magaliesberg? MR VLOK Of the game farm, no Mr Chairperson. MR PRIOR Did you know that there was a base at the game farm? MR VLOK Yes Mr Chairperson. MR PRIOR How did you know this? MR VLOK Because they left Ventersdorp in a convoy, they said they were on their way to the game farm. MR PRIOR Did you leave Ventersdorp in a convoy? How many vehicles? MR VLOK I do not know, Mr Chairperson, they went in small groups. Some people were at Cliff's farm, Cliff Barnard's farm. Nicolas Barnard's farm was just outside of Ventersdorp, that is where the women were. MR PRIOR At Koesterfontein, at the building of the bomb and the assistance that you provided, did you ask any questions concerning the bomb, the building of the bomb? For example, what would happen if the bomb would detonate, will we be safe, will we have enough time to get away? MR VLOK No, they did tell me Mr Chairperson, that is why they explained to me how to activate it. They said to me that you've got a certain amount of seconds to get away. MR PRIOR At that stage you did not know anything of explosives you knew nothing? MR VLOK No, I didn't know. MR PRIOR And they gave you the instruction to activate this massive bomb? MR VLOK Yes, they trusted me and that was just after a few explanations that probably took a few minutes. MR PRIOR You were entrusted with the activation or detonation of this massive, powerful bomb after you received a few minutes of instructions? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. MR PRIOR Is there any reason why Koekemoer, he built the bomb, why didn't he go with to detonate the bomb? Weren't you scared that you could have died in this explosion? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, because at that stage I was willing to give even my life for that which I believed in. MR PRIOR One aspect of Constand Viljoen's involvement at head office, while you were there did they ever talk about Constand Viljoen as a traitor - that he sold us out, that he's going to take part in the elections now - anything in that nature? MR VLOK No, not as far as I can remember. MR PRIOR And you were always or most of the times you were with the leader, Eugene Terreblanche, is that correct? MR VLOK Yes, that is correct. MR PRIOR And he never made any comment that he is disappointed in General Constand Viljoen? MR VLOK Not as far as I can remember, no. MR PRIOR It is so that forgiveness is not a requirement in this act of reconciliation or in your amnesty application but the families who sit here and listen to the application requested me in the following questions and the first question is - how did you feel after you found out that various people, black people as well as white people died because of this bomb that you planted there? We haven't heard how you felt about it. MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, at that stage after the incident I believed that that what I did was in the interest of the AWB and it would further the struggle to obtain a Volkstaat. MR PRIOR So at any other level - on a personal level, you didn't feel anything? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, for me it was difficult, the fact that innocent lives were taken, it was difficult for me but at that stage I was so desperate and I believed that that what I was doing would be to further my principles and my support of the movement. MR PRIOR As Mr Malan put it to you, the fact that the ANC in their campaign for freedom killed people, planted bombs etc, did you see that as justified, that it justified your actions? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, because I did in what I believe in. MR PRIOR Do you concede now that there were better targets to convey your message, in other words, to stop the elections as it was suggested by the other legal representatives? For example the polling booths, police stations etc? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, there could have been other targets or bombed, but at that stage it was my instruction and I executed it in that manner. I knew before the elections, before 1993 and 1994 there was acts of terror or sabotage and that other targets were hit and the task that I did was explained to me and it was conveyed to me that lives will be lost in order for the election to be stopped and that would help in the whole process. MR PRIOR In Exhibit F, that is the newspaper article, of 8 February 1994, that is when Mr Terreblanche spoke at Lichtenberg. There was an explosion at a power station. There was also talk about nineteen similar explosions in the Western Transvaal. Do you carry any knowledge concerning this? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, I did see the newspaper article. MR PRIOR How many of those nineteen explosions resulted in the loss of life? MR VLOK As far as I know, none. MR PRIOR They were against certain buildings etc., is that correct? MR VLOK Yes, it was to sabotage, Mr Chairperson. MR PRIOR Concerning the families of the victims and those who died who listen to your application, the question is, is there anything that you would like to tell them about your feelings? They've got the feeling that you sit there, you ask for amnesty, nothing was said about them, if you at all consider them or consider their feelings while you answer questions that are put to you? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, I would like to convey my condolences to these people, that they were the targets of our goals that we wanted to reach and in which we believed in very strongly at that stage. MR PRIOR If I look at the charge sheet in the High Court, it seems to me as if most of the victims except two, who were white, the rest of them were all black people and the places where the bombs were planted or thrown, I'm talking about the pipe bombs, was places where usually a person would expect to find black people? MR VLOK I do not know, Mr Chairperson, I was not there. MR PRIOR But we know now and you must have heard in the last week or so that it was the case? MR VLOK Yes, I did hear about this. MR PRIOR At any stage did anybody talk about the target of violence would be the black group of people, are you saying that it is coincidence that your Germiston bomb was set off at a taxi rank? MR VLOK No, I was not part of the planning so I do not know. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR ADV BOSMAN No questions. ADV GCABASHE Thank you, Chair, I have one question. This is in relation to a point raised by Mr Bracher. If you look at page 98 of Volume 1, where you talk about the two Bothas. Now are you saying that you were instructed to accompany the two Bothas to Koesterfontein? I'm just now contextualising your evidence? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I received the instruction when they left Ventersdorp and went to the game farm. Leon van der Merwe gave the instructions and said that if someone arrives late, I must take them to Koesterfontein where they will be picked up and taken to the game farm. ADV GCABASHE Now you see, that's exactly what I want to know, you hadn't told us about the picking up before, so let me get this right. You were told to take late arrivals like the Bothas to Koesterfontein. MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Now who picked them up at Koesterfontein? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, I do not know because I was in the building and they were outside. ADV GCABASHE Two questions - did they see the other members of the party that was at Koesterfontein? Maybe that one first. MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, because Nicolas Barnard came out and Abraham Myburgh also saw and so they must have seen them yes. ADV GCABASHE Did they see the bomb that was being made? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, because it was inside the building, it was a closed building. ADV GCABASHE Was there any discussion at this point when the Bothas were there about the whole bombing spree, what was going to be happening? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Was there any discussion at all about the bomb that had gone off that morning at Bree Street - if I don't have my facts wrong? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, there was no such discussion. ADV GCABASHE Now give me a time, roughly at what time were you at Koesterfontein with the Bothas? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson it was after dark, I do not know exactly the time, let's say approximately eight o'clock. ADV GCABASHE Because you say later in the day, so you think roughly about eight o'clock that evening? MR VLOK Yes. ADV GCABASHE Now eight o'clock that evening, where exactly was this motor bomb being built, you know line three, Koekemoer was busy building this bomb. Where exactly was this? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, it was inside the old house, it was inside the house. There was a big room and the bomb was on a table and they were busy putting the explosives around this bottle. ADV GCABASHE And having done that you then went to bed? MR VLOK Yes, Mr Chairperson, after the bomb went off I went to bed. ADV GCABASHE You testified at some point that the following morning you went back to head office, yes? MR VLOK Yes Mr Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE When exactly was that? MR VLOK No, I cannot say but it was in the span of the morning, if I must guess it was approximately eleven o'clock. ADV GCABASHE Are you saying this was after you had returned from Germiston? MR VLOK Yes Mr Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE You see my impression had been earlier, much earlier that you had gone back to the office fairly early in the morning - that impression was wrong? MR VLOK Yes Mr Chairperson, it was after the bombing. ADV GCABASHE When you got back to the office who did you find there? MR VLOK Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember exactly but it was the members who worked at head office in other words the women, the women who worked there. ADV GCABASHE Now this is a Monday morning, the Generals hadn't turned up yet, they weren't there? MR VLOK No, not as far as I know. ADV GCABASHE So you were the most senior person in the office on Monday morning at eleven o'clock? MR VLOK I cannot remember. ADV GCABASHE Now who else would have been senior to you in the office on Monday morning? MR VLOK No, I do not know, I was probably the senior there. ADV GCABASHE Now did you discuss Germiston, what had happened at Germiston with anybody in the office? MR VLOK No Mr Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Why not, weren't you feeling good about what had happened? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, it was a policy that any member or any operational area will talk to the public and it was in public. It was away from the base so in other words I could not discuss it. ADV GCABASHE But as I understand it, all the people in that office at that particular time were committed AWB members? MR VLOK Yes Mr Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE You all shared the same objectives you were all there to fight a war? MR VLOK Yes Mr Chairperson but I cannot remember if there were any civilian people in the head office. ADV GCABASHE No, we're just talking about people like your AWB members who shared the same objective, who were there for roughly the same reason to wage war in the short or long term secure a Volkstaat. I'm talking about those people and my question really is, why didn't you share one of your achievements with people who, like you, wanted to know when you were successful? MR VLOK Just repeat that question please? ADV GCABASHE My question is a very simple one, you had just had a major success, yes? MR VLOK Yes, the operation was successful, the bomb did go off. ADV GCABASHE Right, you personally were involved in that success? MR VLOK In the operation that succeeded, yes. ADV GCABASHE That success was aimed at achieving a particular objective that had been set by the AWB? MR VLOK That is correct, yes. ADV GCABASHE You are in an office with other AWB members, who like you, are fighting for the same objective? MR VLOK Yes Mr Chairperson but they were who had to do duties in the office and they were not there to fight. The rest of the Commandos were already placed out in other bases. ADV GCABASHE So you would not share your success with other members of the AWB in those circumstances? MR VLOK No Mr Chairperson because I feel that the instruction - that it would be the duty of a senior officer who gave the instructions to then convey it to them. ADV GCABASHE Did this secrecy, you know keeping things to yourself, did this extend to other members of the Garde? MR VLOK Can you please repeat the question? ADV GCABASHE This secrecy, this keeping your success to yourself, did this extend to the other members of your community of the Ystergarde? MR VLOK No, I do not know Mr Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE No, no, no - in relation to what you would share with your colleagues, people of your rank, of your standing in your military formation - in your military formation, the Ystergarde - you would not talk to them either about this success of yours? MR VLOK No, Mr Chairperson, because if it was - if I had to tell them they also would have been involved in this operation. ADV GCABASHE Then finally on the same aspect - whose responsibility was it to report to your senior officers on the success of the mission? MR VLOK Chairperson, I believe it was Jan de Wet's instruction because he was on his way back to the base where they were stationed. ADV GCABASHE No, not what you believe, what you know? If you don't know then you don't know, not what you believe. MR VLOK Please repeat the question? ADV GCABASHE Whose responsibility was it to inform your superior officers that you had been successful in Germiston? You after all had the activator, you pressed those wires together? MR VLOK Yes,Mr Chairperson, I put the wires together against the battery's terminals but it was De Wet's task to go and report back to Nicolas Barnard and that was how the instruction was given, that he must go back and give a report to him. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Thank you Chair. ADV BOSMAN At the stage when you left for Koesterfontein, where was General Prinsloo and Brigadier van der Merwe? MR VLOK I do not know, Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN When did General Prinsloo or rather Brigadier van der Merwe, when did he give you the instruction to accompany people to Koesterfontein? MR VLOK Chairperson, that was in Ventersdorp at the Trimpark. ADV BOSMAN Was that the previous day? The Friday already or when was this? MR VLOK No, Chairperson, that was when we got together at the Trimpark and when the Ystergarde gathered together when they were called up the first time. ADV BOSMAN Because you sat with two instructions when you went to Koesterfontein and one was that of Brigadier van der Merwe, that is accompany people to Koesterfontein, did he say you have to return then, is that how you understood it? MR VLOK Please repeat? ADV BOSMAN When Brigadier van der Merwe told you to accompany people to Koesterfontein, did you understand that you must go and do something at Koesterfontein or did you understand you must then return to your base? MR VLOK At that stage I believed I must return to Ventersdorp. ADV BOSMAN And when you went to Koesterfontein, you actually went there to go and help build bombs? MR VLOK Chairperson, as I've said before, it was the Sunday the 24th and then Abraham Myburgh and Nicolas Barnard arrived at the Garde House and they gave me the instruction to accompany them to Koesterfontein. ADV BOSMAN But to make bombs? Did they tell you then it's to make bombs at the Garde House? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. ADV BOSMAN Did you not know where Brigadier van der Merwe was at that stage? MR VLOK I was under the impression that he was at the game farm and I believed that's where he went the day they left Ventersdorp. ADV BOSMAN Wasn't there anyone else that you could talk about with regards to these two instructions because now you have two instructions - one is go to Koesterfontein and then you returned and the other instruction is go to Koesterfontein and build bombs. MR VLOK Cliff Barnard told me that Brigadier Leon van der Merwe said that I must go to Koesterfontein. ADV BOSMAN And when you returned where was General Prinsloo and Leon van der Merwe then, after the bomb now? MR VLOK I do not know Chairperson, I believe they were still at the game farm. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Vlok, the making of a bomb, how late in the day did this happen? MR VLOK Chairperson, I do not know what time on Sunday the 24th they started making the bomb but I know I was there just after dark and the bomb was at an advanced stage. CHAIRPERSON And how late in the day was the sand thrown over the bomb in the trailer? MR VLOK The next morning, very early? CHAIRPERSON The morning? MR VLOK Yes, the next morning, the 25th, very early. CHAIRPERSON Was the sun already up? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson, the sun was already up. CHAIRPERSON Is this April month, the month of April and then de Wet arrived? MR VLOK Yes Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now did it take you the whole night to make the bomb? MR VLOK No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Who was in charge of you guys? MR VLOK Cliff Barnard, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And he gave the orders? MR VLOK He gave me the order that I must go with Jan de Wet to Germiston but Koekemoer was in charge of the actual making of the bomb, he built the bomb. He gave the people instructions how to build a bomb and to place the bomb on the trailer. CHAIRPERSON Yes, we understand that, but I'm not talking about in whose charge you were, who was the Commander, let me put it that way of Koesterfontein that evening? MR VLOK Nicolas Barnard, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Several occasions, you in your evidence said that you acted in the interests of the AWB - which interests is this? MR VLOK Chairperson, the interests of the AWB was at that stage to stop the elections and to enforce a Volkstaat and if they would not give us a Volkstaat, we thought we'll enforce it because at that stage we thought, we were under the impression that the ANC government - the future ANC government would not give us an election once they come to power. CHAIRPERSON Just before you brought about this bomb in Germiston or you accomplished the exploding of a bomb, did you try and find out from head office if the Volkstaat was handed over to you, just before you detonated the bomb? MR VLOK No Chairperson, I feel then we would have been stopped by our commanding structure as the messages were conveyed down from the top. CHAIRPERSON But you knew you going to plant a bomb and you're going to detonate the bomb and people are going to be killed, is that not true? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did you think before we take these people's lives just for final sake let's just contact head office and just find out if maybe we did succeed in obtaining this Volkstaat? MR VLOK And the question is? No we did not contact them. CHAIRPERSON Did you think about it? MR VLOK No Chairperson because I believed that I was there to perform my task and automatically it would have come from the top if we had to stop. It was my task and I had to perform it. CHAIRPERSON Please tell me, when you received the instruction - I'm not quite sure what was your exact instruction but as I understand your evidence at least you had to take these people to a farm. MR VLOK That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What would have happened if you said "I don't want to"? MR VLOK At that stage I do not know but then I believed that there was no turning around, that's what Nicolas Barnard also told us. My purpose was there that I wanted to achieve my purpose and we also had an oath in the Garde which said that if you turn around or you turn away from them you would be shot and at that stage we were in a war situation and there was no turning back. CHAIRPERSON Is that the reason - let me put it this way - is that what you were scared of, that you might be killed, you might be shot dead? MR VLOK Please repeat your question? CHAIRPERSON Did you fear that you might get shot? In other words, the possibility that if you turned around that you might be shot - did you believe in that possibility? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I'm asking this question because several times during your evidence you make mention of the fact that you acted according to instructions and that these instructions, you were following these instructions. Now these instructions, did you obey them under force, under coercion? MR VLOK No, Chairperson, not at all, I was there because I believed in the principles of the AWB and that was why I was willing to even give my life for the cause. CHAIRPERSON Because Mr Kriel and Brasher asked you did you not think about the lives of the people who died and both times you answered "I acted according to my instructions" that's why I'm asking you - did you feel that act under coercion? MR VLOK No Chairperson, I acted in accordance with what I believed which was the Volkstaat. CHAIRPERSON Did you not think about the lives that you were going to take? MR VLOK No Chairperson because at that stage I was desperate to share my Volkstaat with my people and to stop the elections so that our demands would be met. CHAIRPERSON Now you're saying that the policy as you understood it and you believed in this policy that each race in this country must look after itself. Did I understand you correctly? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now how many races were you thinking about? MR VLOK Well Chairperson, at that stage I saw it as all the different nations who lived together in this country. Each one had the right to self-determination. CHAIRPERSON But how many races or nations were you taking into consideration then? MR VLOK If you say take into consideration, what do you mean? CHAIRPERSON In other words, how many did you think about? That in this country how many of them should govern themselves in this country? MR VLOK At that stage I thought about the ANC government and the same way they wanted South Africa, we as Afrikaner Boerevolk wanted our own bit of ground, Chairperson, our own bit of land because we knew that the ANC would win the elections, it was quite evident from the amounts of people representing the ANC and looking at the amounts representing the Afrikaner Volk, you can't even compare it and it's impossible to win an election. CHAIRPERSON I'm not talking about elections, Mr Vlok, I not talking about states of nation, I'm simply asking you - if it was the policy as you understood it - the policy of the AWB that is - that each nation must look after itself, how many nations were you talking about within this country? CHAIRPERSON Each one that's being represented, Chairperson, Tswanas, Xhosas, Vendas, Portuguese people, each one, Greeks, the English and the Afrikaners. CHAIRPERSON I wonder how that flag would have looked. In any case, what did you did in the furthering of this policy that each race would look after itself - or nation? MR VLOK Please repeat, I do not understand. CHAIRPERSON What did you or the AWB do to further this policy, the policy which says each person must look after itself, each nation must look after itself. For example you named Tswanas or Greeks - what would you do with regard to the Greeks? How would you have helped them? MR VLOK No, then I misunderstood you Chairperson, I will take you back to the answer earlier. From what I understood from your question was that you were asking me who are all represented in this country and that's how I saw it. CHAIRPERSON Well, it get's to that, what I really want to know is, how many nations did you conceive who would be looking after themselves? MR VLOK I do not understand what you mean, what did you conceive, I cannot remember the question before that? CHAIRPERSON If there were so many nations in this country and each nation agrees that they want self-determination, then it wouldn't have been necessary to obtain an Afrikaner Volkstaat for the Afrikaner Boere, because then everybody would have lived in South Africa without problems, is that not true? MR VLOK No, Chairperson, I saw that we as Afrikaner volk also had the right, as all the other nations, we had the right to live in our own land. The fact of the matter is, the Afrikaner Boerevolk did not have a piece of land of it's own where he can be governed by his own people where they cannot be governed by their own Boerevolk leaders and that's why I identified to that, that's why I fought for them. CHAIRPERSON Let's say it was a possibility and the Greeks and the Tswanas and everyone, they all agree - but South Africa was not divided in areas like that. Now in terms of the policy of the AWB, what did you do in order to accomplish that on behalf of the Greek people? MR VLOK I did not represent the Greek people. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but how would the AWB accomplish this, all these small little states, surely it couldn't only be for the Afrikaner Boerevolk according to your policy? According to your policy you couldn't only have it for the Afrikaners, according to your policy each nation must have his own piece of land. How did you try and bring about the policy of the AWB with regards to all the nations? MR VLOK Unfortunately, I still don't understand you. CHAIRPERSON The Volkstaat, if I understand you correctly, the Volkstaat idea was for the Afrikaner where they would be governed by the Afrikaners. MR VLOK No, outside of the borders of the Volkstaat, the rest of the nations would have been able to govern themselves and they would have had their say to the government. CHAIRPERSON No, I don't understand you because earlier in your evidence you spoke about the purity of nations, do you remember that? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now the purity of nations, I understand is Greeks, Tswanas, is that not true. MR VLOK Yes, each is a nation on it's own. CHAIRPERSON And it's the policy of the AWB? MR VLOK Each one has a culture of it's own, a religion and principles according to which they live and that's what the AWB is trying to achieve. CHAIRPERSON But up until 1994, up until that time, what did the AWB do in terms of the Greek states in South Africa, what did they try and do to try and accomplish that? MR VLOK Nothing that I know of Chairperson, nothing. CHAIRPERSON So it was only about the Afrikaner Boerevolk, the Volkstaat? MR VLOK Yes, that would have been for the Afrikaner. CHAIRPERSON One last question, you testified that you wanted to speak the truth and to reconcile, is that correct? What reconciliation are you talking about, what do you understand with that? MR VLOK Chairperson, reconciliation means as I understand it that you come in front of this Committee and you tell them that you were fighting a struggle at that time and you come and tell this to the world and to the Committee here and that order you can take a decision whether there will be amnesty or not and to express my sympathy and condolences to the families outside who died because of the objectives we wanted to achieve and to tell them that we are sorry. CHAIRPERSON And do you want to reconcile yourself with them? MR VLOK Chairperson as I have said, I give my condolences and if I get amnesty I would like to go out, back to my house where I live in the Cape and I want to be able to continue with my life in peace. CHAIRPERSON I do not understand you, do you want to reconcile with the people who suffered in one or other way because of that bomb? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you want to open your heart towards them? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson, that's why I came here and sat here and told you about the things that I did. CHAIRPERSON Did you make any effort to speak to them? MR VLOK Chairperson, I was on the run for two years and almost three months yesterday, that's why I'm sitting here so I'd like to tell the victims' parents of these things so that they also know what happened. CHAIRPERSON But did you actually go to them and try and talk to them and tell them how sorry you are and that you've changed? MR VLOK I thought that would be the chance I'll be granted now, when I'm sitting in front of you. CHAIRPERSON Are you willing to make such an effort after the hearing to go and talk to them yourself? MR VLOK Yes Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You applicants, have you discussed this amongst yourselves? MR VLOK No, Chairperson, because we want to finish the case first and then the families of the victims, if they approve of it and they accept our apologies. CHAIRPERSON How are you going to find out about this? MR VLOK Finding out what, please repeat? CHAIRPERSON How are you going to find out? MR VLOK We'll discuss it amongst ourselves as soon as we get together again and from there we can act. CHAIRPERSON What would be the position if we refuse to give you amnesty, would you still try to go and reconcile yourself with these people? MR VLOK Yes, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED