amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-06-23 BOKSBURG 5 JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS AM6480/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52705&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98061725_bks_boksbur4.htm MS VAN DER WALT Mr Chairperson, the next applicant is the sixth applicant on Volume 6 list, Johan Wilhelm Du Plessis. JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Mr Du Plessis, you applied for amnesty and also filled in the form and that is in Volume 1 from page 101 - 117 and Section B from 214 - 223, is that correct? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Du Plessis, you were with the other applicants in the High Court charged and you were found not guilty on all the charges? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT And is it correct that you apply for amnesty as you set out the deeds that you did in Annexure A that would then be the pipe bombs that went out to the different places, the bomb to Germiston and the bomb to Jan Smuts? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is correct Mr Chairperson MS VAN DER WALT You did not have any knowledge about the Bree Street bomb? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Does he apply for amnesty for these offences and found not guilty? MS VAN DER WALT That is correct yes. CHAIRPERSON I know he can still apply for amnesty but what is the point in applying? MS VAN DER WALT May I answer? In the first instance this applicant was the one who gave the instruction for the pipe bomb, I can say yes, the instruction and if there's any civil charges against him, he must apply for amnesty for that. Mr Du Plessis, the occurrences in Annexure A - you've explained them but there's one aspect I'd like to refer you to and that is paragraph 24, that is on page 112 where it is not completed. You talked about the throwing of the pipe bombs were discussed at the meeting, that you do mention there in paragraph 24? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct Mr Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT Can you tell this Honourable Committee what was discussed? MR DU PLESSIS That specific meeting, we discussed that pipe bombs had to thrown. The instruction or order was given by Nico Prinsloo, other officer who was present was Brigadier Leon van der Merwe. The pertinent target area that was explained to me or given to me was the PWV area. MS VAN DER WALT Was that the Pretoria/Witwatersrand area? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Was anything said to you regarding targets? MR DU PLESSIS Targets that was indicated by General Nico Prinsloo to me was called taxi ranks. MS VAN DER WALT And then you further continue in your application how you conveyed these instructions and you do confirm that? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Then furthermore, page 114, paragraph 27. CHAIRPERSON Before you continue, what happened in the meetings? You said that the throwing pipe bombs was discussed in that meeting? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON As a result of that meeting certain instructions were given? MR DU PLESSIS These instructions were given by me to certain people. CHAIRPERSON Before that, did you take part in the meeting? The meeting, the discussion of the pipe bombs were discussed? MR DU PLESSIS Yes I was present there. CHAIRPERSON Did you take part in the discussions? MR DU PLESSIS No, I did not take part - I was at that meeting told that I must gather or bring people together who will throw these pipe bombs. The target area is the PWV area and that the purpose of the pipe bombs would be to create a fear psychosis amongst the people in order to disrupt the elections. CHAIRPERSON Did you listen when they said that the pipe bombs or that the targets must be taxi ranks. MR DU PLESSIS No, that instruction was given to me pertinently. CHAIRPERSON But did you hear when they discussed it at that meeting? MR DU PLESSIS No, I did not hear when they discussed it, in other words I did not hear that on a general level where the decision was made that the targets must be taxi ranks. MS VAN DER WALT I refer you to paragraph 27 on page 114 -there you mention that on Sunday 24th April, 1994 you went to Koesterfontein. Why did you go there? MR DU PLESSIS General Nico Prinsloo gave me the instruction the evening before that the next morning I must go with Jan de Wet to Koesterfontein on a mission. I do not know what mission it was but I thought it could have been a bomb mission. MS VAN DER WALT Paragraph 29 page 115 you mentioned that at the shooting range, Barnard further gave the instructions of the Staff Generals and was given instruction that a bomb must be planted in a stolen Peugeot. Why did you say that this instruction comes from the Staff Generals? MR DU PLESSIS I had already, it had something to do with Barnard, with the Germiston bomb. I knew that he deals with instructions that was given to him by the Staff Generals in that Nico Prinsloo had told me that I must go with, with the Germiston bomb and the instruction for the Jan Smuts bomb I also received from Cliff Barnard. MS VAN DER WALT Was there any Generals at the shooting range present on that day? MR DU PLESSIS The day before the Jan Smuts bomb exploded, there were a few Generals at the shooting range itself, at the Waterfall Shooting Range in Rustenburg. General Ackerman, General Smit from Welkom as well as Nico Prinsloo, they were present at the shooting range. MS VAN DER WALT And this General Ackerman, it seems that if, according to the application, there was more than one Ackerman, which one do you refer to? MR DU PLESSIS This is the General Ackerman, I think he was currently - I think they talk about him as the Commandant General - the highest General there is. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Du Plessis, is there anything else you would like to add to the happenings in Annexure A? MR DU PLESSIS No, Mr Chairperson. MS VAN DER WALT Do you then confirm the content? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MS VAN DER WALT Do you confirm the content of Annexure A? MR DU PLESSIS What annexure is that? MS VAN DER WALT That is the ideology of the AWB and the -I would just like to get it for you. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Du Plessis, are you satisfied that you take note of the content of the document, have you read it before? MR DU PLESSIS No, Mr Chairperson, I did not read it. CHAIRPERSON Because questions will be put to you regarding that document and it doesn't help to say no now that you agree with it and then later you say "I do not agree", it will not help you. So if you need some time to read it, ask for it and we will give you an opportunity. MR DU PLESSIS I would appreciate some time. CHAIRPERSON And the content of your application, Annexure A, have you read that? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON You do know what the content of it is? MR DU PLESSIS Yes I do. CHAIRPERSON And the fact that you confirm that is that correct? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON Is there nothing you would like to change in that? MR DU PLESSIS No Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON How long do you think he will need to read that document? MS VAN DER WALT I apologise, I did not know that he hadn't read it, that is not my applicant, I accepted it but can I ask for ten minutes? NO FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION JOHAN WILHELM DU PLESSIS (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS After conviction, one of the family members of the applicants sent a message via the court orderly to Mrs Keane to say we're sorry about your white child's death. Mrs Keane rejected that and said she would only consider it if the apology was extended or the sympathy was extended to all the families of all the deceased regardless of colour and that never came back. Do you have any knowledge of that incident? Of that specific incident I carry no knowledge. MS CAMBANIS What is your attitude to the apology to whites only? MR DU PLESSIS I think that it is wrong, I agree that that apology must be extended to all the victims. MS CAMBANIS When did you decide that it should be extended to all the victims and their families? MR DU PLESSIS That is how I feel about it. MS CAMBANIS Is that how you felt during your trial? MR DU PLESSIS During the trial? Yes. MS CAMBANIS Why such a long hesitation, what did you have to think about? MR DU PLESSIS I wanted to think if I can at a specific time decided that - because it was part of a question you put to me. MS CAMBANIS Thank you. NO FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MS CAMBANIS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL Mr Du Plessis, do you currently live in Ficksburg? MR DU PLESSIS I live on the farm of my father in the Ficksburg district. MR KRIEL Do you farm there? MR DU PLESSIS No, I do not farm, I work in town. MR KRIEL This form, the form that was completed, pages 101, 102, 103 - was that in your own handwriting? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, part of it was not completed in my own handwriting. MR KRIEL What part of it was not completed by yourself or in your own handwriting? MR DU PLESSIS Questions 9a and b, 10a and b, c, 11a and b, 12a and b, c, d, e, and that is it. MR KRIEL It was not completed by yourself? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct yes. MR KRIEL 13 - did you complete that yourself? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, it looks like it. MR KRIEL Tell us about the application that was pending, certain civil cases, pending on the grounds of people who were killed from some of these bombings and the amount that he's asking from you? MR DU PLESSIS I'm not quite sure but it's a large amount. Approximately I think they talk about R120 000 in one case and the other one is more than R200 000. MR KRIEL I see that Judge Flemming - he refers to R15 000 000's of damage - are you aware of that? MR DU PLESSIS The damage I am aware of but I do not know if all the people there wanted to make civil claims. MR KRIEL When did you decide that you have to apologise to all the victims? MR DU PLESSIS When I heard after the bomb, after attacks or explosions, the Germiston bomb and some of the pipe bomb attacks and I heard that people were killed. MR KRIEL Approximately when did you hear about the Germiston Bomb? MR DU PLESSIS It is difficult, I cannot remember exactly when I heard about it, the bomb was the morning, if I can remember correctly, it could have been the television or the radio, I heard about the bomb itself. MR KRIEL So, let me put it as follows, you were a member of the AWB? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is correct. MR KRIEL And you supported the idealogies and ideals of the AWB? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is correct. MR KRIEL And you still followed or agreed with it? MR DU PLESSIS I identified myself with the Volkstaat, that the AWB wants but I did not identify myself with all their struggles and goals and objectives. MR KRIEL So I can still accept that you're still a member of the AWB? MR DU PLESSIS At various opportunities they've approached me and asked me if I want to take part in marches etc and I refused. In the last few years I also did not pay my membership fees, I did not resign but I will say but I'm not an active member of the AWB any more. MR KRIEL You're not an active member but you're still a member? MR DU PLESSIS If you do not pay your membership fees, no. MR KRIEL No, I do not understand your answer. MR DU PLESSIS Yearly membership fees are asked and as far as I'm concerned, if I do not pay my membership fees of a specific organisation for three or four years then I'm not a member any more. MR KRIEL But when you joined how many years did you pay in advance? MR DU PLESSIS No I've never paid in advance. MR KRIEL But you still follow the ideals of the AWB? MR DU PLESSIS Some of them, yes. MR KRIEL Please tell me about purity of race? MR DU PLESSIS It is a term that I would say was inspired by the German's in the second world war. MR KRIEL And do you follow purity of race, the idealogy of it? MR DU PLESSIS No, I do not. MR KRIEL Was it one of the ideologies that you do not follow in the AWB? MR DU PLESSIS I would say that the ideology of purity of race is not an ideology of the AWB. MR KRIEL Then why in Annexure B, paragraph 2, you would like to further and create in a Boerevolk an awareness of their nationalism, their heritage in the interest of promoting purity of race? MR DU PLESSIS As far as that point is concerned I do no longer identify with it. CHAIRPERSON Did you identify with it at one point in your life? MR DU PLESSIS Chairperson, while I was a member of the AWB on several occasions I asked several people if there's a connection between the AWB and the Nazi's of the second world war and some of these people answered and said that there would never be any such connection. The term of purity of race I consider this to be a term which came from that period in history and I do not identify with it at all. CHAIRPERSON Where you aware of the fact that it was a policy of the AWB? MR DU PLESSIS This is the policy of the purity of race? CHAIRPERSON Yes, as it's written there. MR DU PLESSIS No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Were you not aware of it? MR DU PLESSIS No, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So what was your purpose in becoming a member of the AWB? MR DU PLESSIS Chairperson, the purpose, the reason why I became a member of the AWB was because I did not want that the ANC/SACP Alliance or government take over our country. I did not want them to be in control of our country and that is completely on a political basis that I became a member of the AWB. I am anti-communism. CHAIRPERSON Is the AWB the only party in this country that is anti-communistic? MR DU PLESSIS The National Party at that stage, Mr Chairperson, I considered that party to be one which would sell us out to the communists. I was scared that the same would happen here as what happened in Angola and Mozambique. CHAIRPERSON Any other party you know of? MR DU PLESSIS I also identified myself with the strives of the HNP but they were not militant enough for me, Chairperson. They did not want to become physically involved, they did not want to take up the weapon. CHAIRPERSON So the only reason was that because there were Communist reasons, was that your biggest problem? MR DU PLESSIS I still believe that there are still communist opinions, that is my opinion. CHAIRPERSON What do you say about the PAC? MR DU PLESSIS The Truth and Reconciliation Committee? CHAIRPERSON The PAC - that they're not a communist party? MR DU PLESSIS I'd say that the PAC also have certain communists - they still support communist positions and people - I cannot mention names. CHAIRPERSON Are you sure? MR DU PLESSIS Well, some of the PAC's people was trained together with the ANC members in certain African states - I'm not quite up to scratch with regards to the PAC. CHAIRPERSON That's why I'm asking, you were looking for a party that did not support communism and according to your own opinion, the ANC was one and that's why you wanted to fight against the ANC? MR DU PLESSIS That's correct Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON But therefore I asked the question - what with regards to the PAC? MR DU PLESSIS I've listened to some of the PAC people and as far as I know they are also socialistically inspired. MR KRIEL Thank you, Chairperson. When you became a member of the AWB did you complete a membership form? MR DU PLESSIS Yes I completed a membership form. MR KRIEL And the last thing that you're confirming on that form if you look at Exhibit 7 in bundle A, if I remember correctly, or item 7 in bundle A - Exhibit A page 7. The last thing which is marked with an asterisk "I confirm herewith that I'm a White South African Citizen" is that correct? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, Chairperson. MR KRIEL And if you look at page 8 and I read for you second paragraph from the bottom: "To promote among Afrikaner Boers a powerful awareness of their white descendant and heritage, the blood relationship and nationalism and the importance of racial purity" Did you find it? MR DU PLESSIS Chairperson, I saw it as they wanted us whites, our ancestry such as Van Riebeek etc, that was what they were referring to - that we are proud of our ancestry and where we are coming from - that's how I see it. MR KRIEL But let's stay with this racial purity - what do you understand with regards to that? MR DU PLESSIS Let me put it simply to you - if you look at the German's in the second world war and their policy - they put the Jews in concentration camps and a great amount of Jews died - I did not see it - the fact that the AWB would put black people in concentration camps and that they would starve them to death. That's not how I saw it. CHAIRPERSON I don't know if Jan van Riebeek believed in racial purity. MR KRIEL If you want me follow it up, I will Chairperson. Let's put it this way, sir. One of the previous applicants did testify to this - you would allow a black person in your Volkstaat if he comes to work for you, is that correct? Do you identify with that statement? MR DU PLESSIS I did not see it in such a way, how I see it is that we would allow black people and they'd be free to live there if they wanted to but they would not have the political vote. CHAIRPERSON Could they have stayed anywhere they want? MR DU PLESSIS As far as I'm concerned yes, they could go anywhere they want and I as a citizen of that republic, if my passport is in order, I would also be allowed to travel outside of the Volkstaat. MR KRIEL And a member of the AWB - could they marry a black woman? MR DU PLESSIS If it was his choice? Yes, Chairperson. MR KRIEL If it's his choice - you did not have a problem with that? That's the general policy of the AWB? MR DU PLESSIS If that's their policy then it is so. MR KRIEL But is this the policy of the AWB, do they put it like that in these documents? Sir, you were a member, not myself. ADV PRIOR I think to be fair to the witness, you started off asking him his views and now you're shifting to the AWB but just as long as you can distinguish. MR KRIEL I apologise, Mr Chairman. Let's clarify this, let's forget about how you see it, let's hear what was the AWB's view of this? MR DU PLESSIS The AWB's view, sir? MR KRIEL Yes. MR DU PLESSIS A member of the AWB can marry a black woman. MR KRIEL I do not believe that he would be held in high regard if he married a black member. CHAIRPERSON Would he still be a member? MR DU PLESSIS I believe they would not expel him immediately but I think if he did that - he would probably retire from the AWB himself. If you asked my personal opinion, about it, no Chairperson, I would not marry a black woman. MR KRIEL Further aspects - you did not know anything about the Bree Street bomb? MR DU PLESSIS I did not know anything about the Bree Street bomb. MR KRIEL When's the first time you heard about the Bree Street bomb? MR DU PLESSIS The Bree Street bomb, the first time I heard about that was on television and that was, if I remember correctly, that Sunday evening at the game farm, Chairperson. MR KRIEL And did you not discuss it? MR DU PLESSIS There were discussions that it was a powerful bomb - we were surprised at the amount of damage it caused. Some of us wondered who did it. MR KRIEL Let me just stop you there. At that stage when you heard that report, wasn't there speculation that the SACP, the South African Communist Party was behind the bomb explosion? MR DU PLESSIS Chairperson, I did not hear any such speculation - I thought it was the right-wing party that was responsible. MR KRIEL But on the news, they did not speculate about who planted the bomb? MR DU PLESSIS I cannot remember the specific news reports, maybe I imagined that it might have been in later news reports but if I remember correctly, there was speculation that it was a right-wing organisation that was responsible for it. MR KRIEL But it did not become known from the talk amongst the people at the game farm? MR DU PLESSIS No, Chairperson. MR KRIEL Monday morning you went to Koesterfontein? MR DU PLESSIS Yes Monday morning I went to Koesterfontein, that is correct. MR KRIEL On whose request? MR DU PLESSIS General Nico Prinsloo told me that I must go to Koesterfontein on a mission and I went together with Jan de Wet and I left the game farm together with Jan de Wet. MR KRIEL When you arrived there, this is now Koesterfontein, did you see that this trailer was changed into a bomb or this trailer is a bomb, let me put it that way? MR DU PLESSIS At Koesterfontein I found Cliff Barnard and he told me and Jan that we are going to go on a bomb mission to Germiston. MR KRIEL Did Nico Prinsloo indicate to you what would be the target of that bomb? MR DU PLESSIS No, Chairperson, I did not know what the target was to be. MR KRIEL Who indicated to you what the target would be? MR DU PLESSIS The target I learned about when I was together with Etienne Le Roux in the car and he told me that it would be a taxi stand in Germiston. MR KRIEL So Etienne Le Roux knew before he arrived at Germiston that the attack would be a taxi stand then? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR KRIEL And a taxi stand which is used mainly by black drivers and black members of the public? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. MR KRIEL So it was a black target? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR KRIEL Similar to the instruction given with regards to the firebombs - black targets? MR DU PLESSIS That was not pertinently put like that but the instruction was definitely taxi stands. MR KRIEL And in 1994 - a taxi rank would you consider a black target or not? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR KRIEL So once again a black target? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you understand it in such a way? MR DU PLESSIS Chairperson, I saw and realised that it is indeed a black target. What I can say is the way I justified it to myself was that most of the ANC supporters were black people and that it would create fear amongst them. MR KRIEL So when you were driving with Le Roux, you did discuss this issue? MR DU PLESSIS He only said to me that a taxi rank was the target. MR KRIEL I asked the question to the previous applicant, he couldn't help me, but you were at the game farm and you were also at Koesterfontein, how far were they away from each other? MR DU PLESSIS I'd say Koesterfontein and the game farm, if I make a rough estimate, I would say about 15 to 20 kilometres away from each other. MR KRIEL And from Koesterfontein to Germiston? MR DU PLESSIS I do not know the exact distance but if I had to make an estimate I'd say about 100 kilometres. MR KRIEL And what did you talk about while you were driving this 100 kilometres? MR DU PLESSIS A great part of the distance we did not say anything - I was scared that we might hit a police roadblock and the other part of the distance I was trying to fix the radio because we no longer had radio communication with the other vehicle and that's that. MR KRIEL Were you also scared that the bomb might explode on the way? MR DU PLESSIS Yes I was scared of that as well, Chairperson. MR KRIEL And the other members of the crew, of the Koesterfontein group, did they experience similar fears and did they express them? MR DU PLESSIS Not that I know of Chairperson. MR KRIEL Because I still do not know why it was necessary that four of you went together, in other words, two - I think you used the word "ghost car" or guiding vehicle - and two in the vehicle which towed the trailer? MR DU PLESSIS If I can give you my opinion about why I was driving with the first vehicle, I think they wanted to train me to take part, so that I can take part in other similar bomb attacks. I think that's why they gave me the instruction to join them. MR KRIEL If I read the statement of Judge Flemming, the word "commitment" was used - he wanted the commitment of the Natalians, he wanted the commitment of members who didn't do anything, do you think they wanted commitment from your side? MR DU PLESSIS I do believe that, Chairperson, yes. A physical deed would commit me to the struggle. MR KRIEL Would you have helped with the stealing of the 4x4's? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I was in charge of that meeting, Chairperson. MR KRIEL And why would you have stolen 4x4's? MR DU PLESSIS Originally, they said that we would have to drive in areas which was difficult to drive in. MR KRIEL When was this instruction given? MR DU PLESSIS Before the operation of car theft started, that was at the game farm. I'd say the Saturday evening, if that's correct, Chairperson. MR KRIEL So at that stage you needed the 4x4 vehicles to go on patrols, it was not to make bombs with them? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that's correct, that is what General Nico Prinsloo told me. MR KRIEL And I accept that by Saturday evening it was very clear to everyone that the Defence Force will not at all provide you with Ratels and other armoured vehicles? MR DU PLESSIS It was not pertinently put to us but at that stage I still hoped that the things that was planned with the Defence Force would realise. MR KRIEL But if it would realise, why must you steal 4x4's if the government would provide you with it or the Defence Force would provide you with it? MR DU PLESSIS I do not know why Nico Prinsloo made that decision. MR KRIEL You acted on instructions from Nico Prinsloo, are you going to call him as a witness in your application? MR DU PLESSIS I do not know what Nico Prinsloo's position is at the moment and the reason why he doesn't want to testify here. MR KRIEL Did you ask him to come and testify? MR DU PLESSIS I think some of the advocates have approached him. MR KRIEL You yourself, did you ever approach him to come and testify? MR DU PLESSIS No, Mr Chairperson. MR KRIEL Why not? MR DU PLESSIS There was talk about in last week that the advocates would get him here, I did not follow it up further. MR KRIEL Did you receive any feedback from your legal team concerning General Nico Prinsloo? MR DU PLESSIS No, I haven't, I haven't asked them either. MR KRIEL When do you think when you will be able to inform us regarding Nico Prinsloo? MR DU PLESSIS I will take it up with my advocates. MR KRIEL Orders or instructions were also given by Cliffie Barnard, is that correct? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR KRIEL Are you planning to call Barnard to testify regarding his instructions? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Nicolas Barnard withdrew his application in front of the court. MR KRIEL I do not think we've got confirmation about that but will you call him as a witness to give evidence on behalf of you in saying that he gave instructions to you on behalf of the AWB? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Nicolas Barnard is in the same prison as Koper Myburgh - Koper Myburgh was physically here to withdraw his application. Mr Nicolas Barnard was not even willing to come here and withdraw his own application, he did it through a fax to the TRC and withdrew it in that manner. MR KRIEL But would you like him to testify on behalf of you? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I would be glad if he can do it? CHAIRPERSON To say what - how will he help you? MR DU PLESSIS He can help me and some of the other applicants in to come and say that he did give us some of these instructions and that would enforce our case or strengthen our case that the instructions came from the AWB top structure. MR KRIEL Thank you Mr Chairperson, that's all from my side. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL EXAMINATION BY MR BRACHER Mr Du Plessis, you were a Commandant in the Ystergarde, is that right? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, yes. MR BRACHER Barnard was a Captain? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, yes. MR BRACHER Why did you take orders from him? MR DU PLESSIS At various opportunities I saw that Cliff Barnard was in the presence of General Nico Prinsloo and it seemed to me as if Mr Barnard was in charge of certain operations that were launched and because of his order in these operations I accepted his instructions. MR BRACHER That's the only reason because you saw him frequently in the company of Prinsloo? MR DU PLESSIS Yes and I knew that he acted on the instructions of the Generals and staff. MR BRACHER Just repeat that last answer please? MR DU PLESSIS I knew that he acted on orders or instructions from the Generals and staff of the AWB. As I've just said I saw him in the company of General Nico Prinsloo and I made that assumption. MR BRACHER That's what I mean, you made an assumption because you saw him with Prinsloo frequently? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, yes. MR BRACHER Can you please explain to me what is the purpose of Annexure B that we adjourned for you to read? MR DU PLESSIS The reason for that was that I read this typed Annexure B because I haven't seen it in that form. I did - a day before the closing of the amnesty application, we did have a discussion regarding the AWB and their ideologies and objectives and as I said, I did not read that annexure in the typed form. MR BRACHER In what form did you see it before? MR DU PLESSIS With my advocate it was in an oral form. MR BRACHER 'n Mondelingse vorm? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, we spoke about it. MR BRACHER But where do all those words come from, whose words are they? MR DU PLESSIS The words in that annexure is not my own words. MR BRACHER And the first time you've ever heard those words was when you discussed them with your advocate preparing for this amnesty application? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct yes. MR BRACHER So it has nothing to do with your motivation at the time of these deeds because you'd never heard of those words then? MR DU PLESSIS Those words no, but I did have time to read through this annexure and that is at times when these deeds were committed, it was my motivation and that is correct yes. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, Mr Du Plessis, where did you live? MR DU PLESSIS At that stage I lived in the Ficksburg District. CHAIRPERSON Were you part of the people who were called up to Ventersdorp? MR DU PLESSIS I was called by Leon van der Merwe on the phone. CHAIRPERSON Why did you go to Ventersdorp - what did you think will happen there? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, before the elections, certain promises were made. I attended various AWB meetings and then also meetings of the Volksfront. In the Volksfront, former Generals of the Defence Force and Police also served and they told us that the volk must stand together and the nation must stand together and that is why the Conservative Party and the AWB in the Volksfront or why they combined all of them together was my opinion that the Defence Force, the AWB, the Volksfront will not accept the communist takeover in the country and that there would be a coup. CHAIRPERSON So the reason why you went to Ventersdorp was to help in order to create a coup? MR DU PLESSIS The reason why I went to Ventersdorp was it was said to me before that an Afrikaner Volkstaat will be created in the Western Transvaal and I wanted to be in that Afrikaner Volkstaat. It was also said to me that some of the Defence Force members and police would walk over to our side and assist us in order to establish that Volkstaat. That is why I left the Free State to the Western Transvaal. CHAIRPERSON To go and found or establish or help establish a Volkstaat? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. CHAIRPERSON So you thought there would be a Volkstaat - from home you thought that you were going to your new home? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER Mr Du Plessis, coming back to Annexure B, we know that racial purity is not part of your motivation, you've already said that? MR DU PLESSIS That's correct. MR BRACHER So those words don't come from you? MR DU PLESSIS Purity of race, no Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER When you first saw all those words - it's about eight pages of motivation - whose words are they, did you draw them up? MR DU PLESSIS No, Mr Chairperson, I did not write it. Those words are from an AWB policy piece which was drawn up by the AWB's, I assume, Generals in Staff. Mr Chairperson, my advocate has got a copy of it and they call it the "First Phase Wen Kommando Officers Course" and the words appear in that Annexure B or comes from that book. MR BRACHER You say the words come out of this book? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, yes. I do not know if it is word for word. MR BRACHER Were you in the Wen Kommando? MR DU PLESSIS Before I became a member of the Ystergarde, I was there for a short period of time, yes. MR BRACHER And you subscribed to everything in this book? MR DU PLESSIS Could you please repeat the question? MR BRACHER I say, do you subscribe to everything in this book, is that where you get your motivation from? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, that specific book I did not read, I did read other policies of the AWB, that specific book is a course for officers in the Wen Kommando. MR BRACHER You first said it was the document, then you said it was a verbal form, then you said it was this, now you say it's not that. Will you please tell me where you got your motivation for your deeds at the time you bombed people? What book had you read then or what had you written down or what was your motivation for your deeds then? MR DU PLESSIS When the bombs were planted, the book that I read was a black book, I think the title was "The Principles of the AWB". In that book the strives for a Volkstaat is described and the leader structure of the AWB at that stage and that is where I found my motivation. MR BRACHER Does it say anything in that book about racial purity? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, I cannot remember if I ever read the words "purity of race" in that book. Many of the things that is said in that book is similar to what is said in that Boerevolk identity document that Mr Fourie submitted to the Commission. MR BRACHER Can we have it absolutely clear - if we get a black book called "Die Beginsels van die AWB" - that is what you subscribed to? And it was different from B - you don't subscribe to B, you subscribed to that at the time of the bombing? MR DU PLESSIS I would not say that everything that is pertinently said in that book that that was my personal principles. MR BRACHER Right, Mr Du Plessis, take as long as you want this afternoon and the whole of tomorrow if you like, tell this Committee what you subscribed to at the time of the bombing, that cause you to commit these bombings. CHAIRPERSON I hope you're not serious. MR BRACHER I am serious. Don't read anything, just tell us from your own words what you subscribed to, what - can I just read to you from your form because this is what it's supposed to be. You see it says in your application form "Mention political motive that wanted to be reached and through your motivation say why you committed these offences with a political objective and how you see this." The political objective or your deeds and the motivation for your deeds. MR DU PLESSIS Question 10a - we can begin and say that the political objectives that I wanted to reach through my deeds was firstly to fight the struggle against the ANC/SACP Alliance, against Communism. CHAIRPERSON Is that contained in one of the documents? MR DU PLESSIS I think it is in Annexure B, I would just like to see what specific point that is. MR BRACHER That's point number 1 "Fight against the ANC/SACP Alliance. MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. Point number 2 - the establishment of an Afrikaner Boere Volkstaat. Before the general elections, we realised that such a state would not be handed over to us and that is why we also then ...[intervention] ADV GCABASHE Sorry, I had to stop you - you say "we realised" can you make this "you" specific, it helps us better because the question I think is related to your political motivation, your political objective. So in your answer it confuses us if you talk about the "we" and then the "I" - we just want to know about you personally, it will help us a lot more. Thanks. CHAIRPERSON That's correct, I'll do it. I was therefore willing to fight for the establishment of a Volkstaat and to fight so that the ANC/SACP Alliance will be prevented from coming into power. That is in short, the political objectives that I personally had. My motivation for the deeds, if I read the question correctly, that was my connection with political objectives, my political objective was that of the AWB movement, it is then also the political party to which I belonged to at that stage and the objectives that I personally had is the same as the AWB's political objectives and that is on the basis of that that I can answer that question in the application. MR BRACHER What were those "doelstellings" from the AWB that you identified with? MR DU PLESSIS The objectives of the AWB with which I identified myself is the striving for a Volkstaat and as well as the struggle against communism. MR BRACHER Now did that include targeting innocent people? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, at that stage it was decided by the Generals in Staff of the AWB - you will see this I think in that little book that you've got there - they talk about Phase 3 and I think in Annexure B it's also contained that a guerilla warfare would be on the order of the day at certain times. MR BRACHER Where do you get that from as the policy of the AWB? MR DU PLESSIS Can we just look in Annexure B? MR BRACHER No, but you didn't read Annexure B, you've never seen till today so forget about Annexure B, forget about that book because you didn't use that either. Who told you or where did you read that you had to ...[intervention] MR DU PLESSIS The ideology of guerilla warfare, I learned this to be - I learned this as a student in the South African Defence Force. For two years I was in the South African Defence Force and I followed a course there in the infantry school in Oudtshoorn and there they elaborated quite extensively with regards to guerilla warfare, that's where I learned about it. MR BRACHER When you joined the AWB did you intend in the course of your struggle to target innocent people? MR DU PLESSIS If it went as far as that, yes Chairperson. MR BRACHER Would you have to get an instruction to do that or would you just do it on your own? MR DU PLESSIS I would have had to receive an instruction and I also received an instruction. MR BRACHER Now these two bombings of which you were responsible and the pipe bombings - let's leave the pipe bombings for a minute - start with Germiston - who gave you instructions to target innocent people? MR DU PLESSIS The instruction came from Nico Prinsloo. MR BRACHER Just tell me about that, don't go further, when did he give you that instruction? MR DU PLESSIS He gave me that instruction at the game farm and he told me that I must go with Jan de Wet and I must join him for a mission. At that stage I did not know what the mission entailed. MR BRACHER No, Mr Du Plessis, that is not an instruction to kill innocent people, that is an instruction to go on a mission. Who told you to target innocent people in those specific instructions not vague stuff. Whoever told you to do that in the AWB? MR DU PLESSIS Before the elections, the leader of the AWB, he said on several occasions that the day when the ANC takes over in this country then there would be war. That was his words. It was quite evident to all of us that the ANC would take power. MR BRACHER Your leader didn't say when it becomes clear they're going to take over go and kill innocent people, he never said that? Mr Du Plessis, I'm going to ask you once more then I'm going to submit to the Commission that you're not telling the truth, I'm only going to ask you once more. Who in the AWB ever gave you instructions to target innocent people? I'm not asking this question again so think carefully who gave you that instruction ever. MR DU PLESSIS In those specific words no, nobody gave me that instruction pertinently, Chairperson. MR BRACHER You say in the beginning of your application three times, your enemy was the ANC/SACP Alliance and Communists. MR DU PLESSIS That's correct. MR BRACHER That was why you joined the AWB and that was why you fought the war? MR DU PLESSIS That as well as the establishment of the Boere Volkstaat. CHAIRPERSON That's what I don't follow. The reason for the Volkstaat was to get away from communism and all those other things that you do not agree with, is that not true? MR DU PLESSIS That's correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON If a Boerestaat was founded then you wouldn't have minded whether there was communism around or not? MR DU PLESSIS But there wasn't a Boerestaat. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but is it untrue, if you had a Boerestaat then Communism would not have mattered? MR DU PLESSIS Then we would have had a place. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand that, but the fact that the ANC would govern the rest of South Africa, would not have mattered because now you've got your Volkstaat. MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So how did it take place or how did it happen that the motivation for you was to fight communism because if you were successful and you had a Volkstaat, it wouldn't have been necessary? That's according to your evidence, is that not so? MR DU PLESSIS If I can put it this way, if the coup, when I'm saying this, it was planned by certain people in this country, if that coup was successful, then there wouldn't have been an election and then it would not have been necessary to immediately obtain a Volkstaat. CHAIRPERSON Mr Du Plessis, if you really do not understand me well, then say so. Listen carefully. The two reasons why you joined the AWB are not parallel because according to your evidence the reason why you became member of the AWB was because you did not like ANC because they were together with the communists? MR DU PLESSIS That's correct. CHAIRPERSON The second reason is because of that you wanted to help in the establishment of a Boere Volkstaat, is that correct? MR DU PLESSIS That's correct. CHAIRPERSON Now if you succeeded in founding this Volkstaat, then it would not have mattered if the ANC won the election or not, is that not true? Then the Volkstaat would have existed and communism would also have existed? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON If you were successful in your onslaught against communism and the reason for a Volkstaat would have fallen away because then wouldn't it have been communism for your purposes? MR DU PLESSIS That's correct. If communism and the ideologies within this country - if we could effectively have fought it then it wouldn't have been necessary for a Volkstaat. CHAIRPERSON Let's say all the communists are thrown out of the country, it no longer exists, then the reason for you, for your purposes, the reason for the existence of a Volkstaat are no longer there? MR DU PLESSIS That's correct. CHAIRPERSON They are two different reasons, they're apart from each other, I do not understand it. It's one or the other, not both of them. Please explain it to me, how could you have fought for both of these reasons? MR DU PLESSIS I do not understand the question very well but I will try to answer it. CHAIRPERSON Well what do you not understand before you try to answer it? MR DU PLESSIS I do not understand how you can say if there wasn't communism that the purpose of a Volkstaat would no longer be necessary because the communism and their part in the ANC is a fact. CHAIRPERSON Let's say the AWB was successful in the prevention that the ANC and therefore communism govern the country, then your reason for a Volkstaat would fall away? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, then it wouldn't be necessary for me to go and live in a Volkstaat. CHAIRPERSON Yes, that's how I understood it. The two do not go hand in hand, that's what I do not understand. Either you've got the one or you've got the other, you couldn't have fought for both of them? MR DU PLESSIS I do not understand. Sorry, I do not understand it. CHAIRPERSON Let me put it this way. You said yourself - if the ANC did not take over the country, then you would have been satisfied? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And then you yourself would not have wanted to obtain a Volkstaat? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON If the ANC did take over together with communism then you wanted a Volkstaat to get away from the communism? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, yes. CHAIRPERSON But if there wasn't any communism around, then there also would not have been a Volkstaat? MR DU PLESSIS If I can answer it in a different manner, I believe that the communists in the ANC government at the moment they are busy with a lot of legislature which would take the farmers right to water. There are many communist inspired legislature which they are going to implement and which would make the life of the Afrikaner Boer or the actual farmer very difficult and that's why I'd say we'd rather want our Volkstaat rather than having to live under communism. CHAIRPERSON Am I correct then that your anti-communist attitude that you hold has got nothing to do with the matter -you only wanted a Volkstaat? MR DU PLESSIS I'd say it's definitely got to do with it. MR BRACHER Have you got your application in front of you, Annexure A? MR DU PLESSIS That's correct, Mr Chairman. MR BRACHER Now look at paragraph 3 - "After I left the army, I became more and more interested in politics" can you see that? Now presumably you're not going to try and tell us that you didn't know in March that General Viljoen had pulled out of the alliance and was now entering the election? MR DU PLESSIS I knew that he registered himself for the election, yes I did know that. I did not think that the plans which they put there in the first place, that he forgot these plans. MR BRACHER But you've no reason to believe otherwise? MR DU PLESSIS There were certain instructions given in which it was said that we together with the Volksfront - let's call it we'll fight together for a Boerestaat and as far as I know Mr Viljoen did not withdraw from those plans. MR BRACHER ..[inaudible] obviously had. MR DU PLESSIS He did register himself for the election but as far as I know, he did not withdraw from those plans. CHAIRPERSON This is what's confusing me, Mr Du Plessis. We know that the AWB was opposed against the elections itself. MR DU PLESSIS That's correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And those who took part in the elections were considered to be traitors, is that not true? MR DU PLESSIS In a way, yes. CHAIRPERSON No, it's not only in a way or to a certain extent, either you're going to take part in the elections or you're not, is that not so and if you did take part in the election then you betrayed. MR DU PLESSIS At that stage I did not exactly see it in that way, Chairperson, I thought that maybe Viljoen had a different agenda. CHAIRPERSON Where did you get this idea from that maybe this man Viljoen was a double agent? Where did you get the idea from? MR DU PLESSIS Chairperson, that idea if I can just run ahead a bit here, all over the country, in almost every town, there were people of the Volksfront and the B.K.A. and they, the leaders of the Volksfront, for example Viljoen, these people were given certain instructions that let's say certain orders were given, those towns had to be taken over - the Commandos and the police stations etc. At that stage I thought it might end up in a coup and those orders were never withdrawn. All that happened was that General Viljoen registered for the elections but those orders were never withdrawn and I was never pertinently told that, that those instructions were taken back or that those plans were not going to realise. MR BRACHER Mr Du Plessis, look at your words in the end of paragraph 5: "I was also at meetings where General Constand Viljoen and Ferdi Hartzenberg told the people that there would be no negotiations but that war would be waged." Now, by the time you performed these terrible acts, that was history because he was negotiating, he was negotiating for a Volkstaat, he was appearing on public platforms as a candidate, he was on the ballot paper, he was in the press as a person who was negotiating, not fighting a war and you had no reason to believe anything different. You had no facts upon which to believe anything different. MR DU PLESSIS The facts, before the election now which we looked at, at that point was that these promises were made to us. MR BRACHER He changed his mind obviously? MR DU PLESSIS Before the election or before these events they never told us that the promises are no longer there. MR BRACHER He did - he said "I'm going into the election." MR DU PLESSIS I did not know about it. I knew that he registered for the election. ADV MALAN CHAIRPERSON Mr Du Plessis, did you know that Constand Viljoen wanted a seat in the Cape's Parliament and that's why he was taking part in the election? MR DU PLESSIS I knew he registered for the elections and he registered a political party, I did not know what his agenda was - I still thought that all the other plans which were made would still continue being carried out. CHAIRPERSON Why, what made you think that? MR DU PLESSIS Neither him nor any other person of the AWB gave the instruction that those plans are being suspended. CHAIRPERSON Could you not think by yourself, we now withdraw - he want to go into parliament - why must everything happen through instructions? Couldn't you think for yourself? MR DU PLESSIS At that stage I did not think of it, no. ADV GCABASHE So essentially, what you are saying is if the NP had granted you a Volkstaat on the morning of the 25th April because your actions followed that, you wouldn't have known about it - you would have continued with your plans because you had been instructed to do particular things and you would therefore not have done anything about it? MR DU PLESSIS If the National Party in that morning did give us a Volkstaat, I believe that some of the Generals and Staff or Mr Eugene Terreblanche would convey the message that we do not continue with the instructions that were given to us. ADV GCABASHE This is the point - had they not communicated that to you, you would have continued with the bombing of Germiston and Jan Smuts Airport? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, yes. ADV GCABASHE You weren't allowed to use your heads in the organisation to reason and say logically this is what should happen? MR DU PLESSIS No, we were not allowed to think in that line, together with us there were Generals in Staff - Nico Prinsloo - and he was at that stage the representative of head quarters. He had contact with head office, with Mr Terreblanche and if decisions were made regarding the suspension, then I believe that we would have received that instruction or message but we did not receive it. ADV GCABASHE This was a condition for joining the organisation, you should strictly follow orders, don't use your head in any particular circumstances? MR DU PLESSIS I would not say that it was a condition but I was trained as a soldier for two years and I think that is probably why they also used me for certain things, to do certain things because I follow instructions as a soldier and accept them as such. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. MR BRACHER Mr Du Plessis, you weren't in the army you were in an organisation where you could have resigned at any minute. MR DU PLESSIS That is not correct - if you join the Ystergarde you had to take an oath which amongst other things "If you walk in front follow me, if I turn back, shoot me." CHAIRPERSON Are you still a member of the Ystergarde? MR DU PLESSIS No, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you're still alive? MR DU PLESSIS Yes I'm still alive I was not shot, that is true yes. MR BRACHER But Mr Du Plessis, we've heard witness after witness saying they have turned their back on the AWB, it's the easiest thing in the world to do? Yes, you're still a member aren't you but all the other people who have testified here have resigned and left the AWB? MR DU PLESSIS It is true, I did not physically hand in my resignation but I'm not an active member any more. MR BRACHER If you don't like killing innocent people you didn't have to, you could have resigned and gone to the Eastern Transvaal instead of the Western Transvaal or back to Ficksburg? MR DU PLESSIS I could have done that yes. MR BRACHER In paragraph 11 you refer to a closed meeting, were you present at that meeting? MR DU PLESSIS That was the meeting that was held at Trim Park in Ventersdorp if I'm not confused. MR BRACHER Were you part of the closed meeting? MR DU PLESSIS I was present at that closed meeting yes. MR BRACHER No that talks about a coalition with the Afrikaner Volkfront - that had also fallen apart by the time you did the bombings because you couldn't have had General Viljoen in parliament and in a separate Volkstaat, could you? MR DU PLESSIS As far as I know, General Viljoen founded a political party, I do not know if he disbanded the Volksfront as such. MR BRACHER But the coalition was gone because he couldn't be a member of parliament in one country and a leader of another Volkstaat? MR DU PLESSIS Viljoen was not the only member or the only person who governed the Volksfront. There were other Generals in that Volksfront Committee. MR BRACHER Who were you relying on? What other Generals were you relying on? MR DU PLESSIS The specific names I cannot remember at this stage but I know that there were other Generals who were in the police in the past. MR BRACHER Look at paragraph 13, you will remember at Ventersdorp there was a meeting and Mr Terreblanche said that the Commandos must go back and find out whether the people are ready for war or not. Do you remember that? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct yes. MR BRACHER General Ackerman called for war and Terreblanche said "Hang on just go and find out whether people want war". Now nobody has ever testified here in this hearing that anybody came back and said the people wanted war or not? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, I do not know about that but I personally did not go back and say that the people are looking for war. At that day when General Ackerman and Mr Eugene Terreblanche addressed this meeting, I was pertinently told by Leon van der Merwe that I must go back, prepare myself, get my things ready, that in two or three weeks - he did not give me a specific date - then I will be called up to come back to the Western Transvaal. MR BRACHER But no Mr Du Plessis, your leader is Mr Eugene Terreblanche. He says "hang on, General Ackerman has called for war but first go and find out whether people want war or not." How can you override that instruction and say that somebody else told you differently. Do you obey anybody who gives you the order that you want to hear? MR DU PLESSIS As far as I know, a decision was made regarding war. CHAIRPERSON Were you ever approached regarding war, fighting this war as it stands in paragraph 13? MR DU PLESSIS At that meeting I was not pertinently asked. CHAIRPERSON But that is my point, Terreblanche according to this paragraph said "wait, hold on it's good to on the one hand shout for war but go and find out if the people want a war, if they are prepared and ready for war." Were you yourself asked about this war? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, at some of the previous meetings where Mr Terreblanche made this address that there would be war, I did agree with his speeches and some of my Commanders like Brigadier van der Merwe...[intervention]. CHAIRPERSON Mr Du Plessis, if someone approached you, it could have been that you might have answered yes. I would like to know, did someone ask you if you are ready and prepared? As the order was given? MR DU PLESSIS Pertinently at that meeting, I would not say that they asked me that but they knew it. CHAIRPERSON And at home did they ask you at a later stage? MR DU PLESSIS When I was called up Brigadier Leon van der Merwe did ask me if I was ready and if I can come up to the Western Transvaal. CHAIRPERSON Mr Du Plessis, when you received the call up the decision was already made there is going to be a war. In order to make that decision, Eugene Terreblanche asked "go and find out from the people if they are ready for war" at home, at work or wherever. Were you approached? MR DU PLESSIS That question was not put to me as pertinently as that? CHAIRPERSON Or any other place - were you asked if you were ready? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, when Brigadier Leon van der Merwe called me up he asked me if I was ready. CHAIRPERSON So before that decision was made you were never approached to find out if you were ready for war? MR DU PLESSIS Yes I agree with that, it was not a democratic decision. ADV BOSMAN Mr Du Plessis, concerning this question - you were now a Commandant - the people over which you had command was that in the Ficksburg area? MR DU PLESSIS It was yes and the Eastern Free State area. ADV BOSMAN Did you hear from them if they were ready for war and what their role would be in this whole call up? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, they were not prepared to leave the Eastern Free State and go to the Western Transvaal. ADV BOSMAN Not even a single person? MR DU PLESSIS There were a few people but most of the people under my command did not go with. ADV BOSMAN Did you report that back to your higher command? MR DU PLESSIS I did report it to Brigadier Leon van der Merwe. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. MR BRACHER How many people were under you command in the Eastern Free State? MR DU PLESSIS If I can make a rough estimate it would be thirty. MR BRACHER Just move on to paragraph 22 - what does it mean to be a Commandant of Operations? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, at that stage I saw it, at the game farm that they placed me in command of the patrols and of certain operations that might take place. When I was appointed in that position I did not know exactly what those operations would entail. I thought that I would be used in liaising with the Defence Force or that it could include war deeds. MR BRACHER When you were appointed Commandant of Operations that was to oversee the patrols? MR DU PLESSIS Originally yes. MR BRACHER Now when you spoke on Sunday 24th April, this is paragraph 24, there was a meeting and the question of throwing of pipe bombs were discussed - the meeting where they said it should be taxi ranks? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct yes? MR BRACHER And when you went out to the meeting of the members - in the next paragraph - were they told to throw bombs at taxi ranks? MR DU PLESSIS When I left there the meeting where I addressed the other people and got them to form groups to go and throw pipe bombs, yes that is correct. MR BRACHER Was that an instruction given to people - throw them at taxi ranks? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that was an order that was given to them. MR BRACHER That's an order they had to obey? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR BRACHER Look at the next page - I think you're already there - "they had to choose their own pipe bombs, the groups were sent to different towns where they had to find their own targets." Now how does that agree with what you've just said? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, I came from the Free State and I did not know where the taxi ranks were, I did not even know where most of the towns in the PWV area was and when I told the people to go and throw these pipe bombs at the taxi ranks I asked them what towns they know well and they could specify or choose to which town they want to go and some of them or most them could choose the groups in which they wanted to go. MR BRACHER I understand all that but look at the next bit -after you've chosen the dorp where they have to choose their own target - how does that agree with what you have said because they were told to choose taxi ranks. MR DU PLESSIS There could be a few taxi ranks in some of the larger towns - they could choose which one they wanted to attack. MR BRACHER They must choose their own taxi ranks? MR DU PLESSIS I could not exactly tell him to go to that taxi rank on the corner of that and that - I could not say that pertinently which target to choose. MR BRACHER Now if you look on the next page it says three of the pipe bomb missions were a success - now the Pretoria one wasn't at a taxi rank - why was that a success if they disobeyed an order? MR DU PLESSIS I do not know, Mr Chairperson, I do not know why they did not listen to this instruction - the bomb did explode though. MR BRACHER But it wasn't a success because they were told to bomb taxi ranks? MR DU PLESSIS I would say that it was a success because the bomb did explode. MR BRACHER As long as the bomb went off you didn't mind where? MR DU PLESSIS That is true yes. ADV BOSMAN Where did the bomb explode, Mr Du Plessis, in Pretoria? MR DU PLESSIS The Pretoria bomb, if I can remember correctly, I think it was a beer hall, Timbaraba's Town close to Pretoria. MR BRACHER Go back to paragraph 24 - you had a meeting with a General, a Brigadier, a Commandant, a Major, you yourself as a commandant, the question about the throwing of pipe bombs was discussed. Now we are now on Sunday night the 24th April 1994, there's no discussion about car bombs, not so? MR DU PLESSIS That's correct. MR BRACHER Can I just ask you something that occurs to me, in order to be acquitted in the criminal case, I presume you lied? MR DU PLESSIS In the criminal court, I did lie yes, that is correct. MR BRACHER You originally made a confession and then you withdrew it didn't you? MR DU PLESSIS I did not make a statement, no. CHAIRPERSON Did you make a written admittance? MR DU PLESSIS No, not at all, I did give evidence yes. MR BRACHER Now - Bree Street bombing - all you knew about that bombing was what you saw on television? MR DU PLESSIS The Sunday evening yes. MR BRACHER That's the same night when you had meetings to discuss pipe bombs? None of your Generals said "well we've got bombing squads out there already with vehicle bombs, car bombs, nobody said that to you? MR DU PLESSIS No, nothing. MR BRACHER Nobody afterwards said "three cheers we've had a success with the car bomb" the state has begun? MR DU PLESSIS No, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER Despite the fact you'd gathered after that as well, didn't you, after the bomb had gone off? MR DU PLESSIS Which bomb? MR BRACHER The Bree Street bomb. MR DU PLESSIS A meeting after the bomb? MR BRACHER That was in that - when you were watching TV there was a whole group of AWB people watching, 70 of them probably. MR DU PLESSIS I do not think everybody, but I think there was quite a few who watched the T.V. MR BRACHER There were many AWB people and nobody says "our bomb has succeeded" or "great guys we've got in Koesterfontein" nothing like that? MR DU PLESSIS No, nothing. MR BRACHER No General comes and announces the successful beginning of operations? MR DU PLESSIS No, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER Now move on to paragraph 27 because you've got seven lines about a most significant event and I want details. That first sentence says that Barnard, Le Roux, Koekemoer, built the bomb at Koesterfontein on the Sunday night. Were you there at the time? MR DU PLESSIS No, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER Now why do you say that in your submission then? MR DU PLESSIS The next day, the morning, when we went to Germiston I found that out. Myself and Jan de Wet arrived at Koesterfontein and there we found Etienne Le Roux, Koekemoer and Cliff Barnard. Cliff Barnard told me that the bomb will go to Germiston, that it is a bomb and that it's going to Germiston and that I must drive with Etienne le Roux. MR BRACHER When did you arrive there, with whom? Did you come with de Wet and Vlok? MR DU PLESSIS No, I arrived there with De Wet, coming from the game farm. MR BRACHER When the two of you were driving there, did you know that you were going on a bombing mission? MR DU PLESSIS I did not know that I'm going on a bomb expedition, no. MR BRACHER So the first time you heard was from Barnard? MR DU PLESSIS Yes. MR BRACHER When you got to the farm was it already - was the bomb complete and covered in sand already or did you help? MR DU PLESSIS Some of the people were busy there to use spades and to throw soil on top of it. Not long afterwards they closed it up and the trailer was hooked onto Jan de Wet's vehicle, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Now you think that you were taken on that mission in order to lock you in so that you could do further bombings because once you've been part of one crime it's in for a penny in for a pound as they say? MR DU PLESSIS That's correct Chairperson. MR BRACHER Now that is not consistent with AWB conduct as you've explained it today. You didn't have to be locked in, you told us that if the AWB gave you an order, you'd perform it, you didn't have to be locked in to anything. You were being locked into a splinter group weren't you? MR DU PLESSIS No, Chairperson, it was not a splinter group. MR BRACHER Why did you have to get locked in then when you already have the best obeyer of orders I have ever heard? MR DU PLESSIS As I already said, it was not a splinter group and I identified myself with the goals those people strived for and I went along with it. MR BRACHER Why did you think then that they would lock you in by taking you as a passenger on the first run? MR DU PLESSIS The reason therefore I do not know. MR BRACHER Well there's only one reason because that was the way to get your commitment to that group? MR DU PLESSIS It might be the case, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Did they know that you came with De Wet? MR DU PLESSIS Chairperson, I do not know if they knew it. Maybe Cliff Barnard and Nico Prinsloo had a meeting, I do not know. CHAIRPERSON Why did you go with De Wet? MR DU PLESSIS Because Nico Prinsloo told me that I must go with De Wet, I must drive with him and go on a mission. MR BRACHER Mr Du Plessis, you gave in your evidence what I thought was a terrible answer, an awful answer. You said "I heard that people died" when you were talking about the Germiston bomb. Now you helped take the bomb there, you parked it - you actually armed the bomb, didn't you? MR DU PLESSIS No, Chairperson. MR BRACHER Well you knew it was going to go off in a crowded place? MR DU PLESSIS I did drive through with Etienne le Roux, I saw that there were a lot of taxis so I knew about it. MR BRACHER Not taxis - people. Real people. MR DU PLESSIS If I might say, a lot of the taxis were empty. MR BRACHER There were people around there, you killed lots of people in a busy time. MR DU PLESSIS There were people, I agree. MR BRACHER "I heard people were dead" - you knew you were going to kill people. MR DU PLESSIS There was a possibility that people might not have died, Chairperson, a lot of the taxis were empty and the people who were commuted by the taxis early that morning was no longer in the taxis. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but Mr Du Plessis, your instruction was to take the lives of people. MR DU PLESSIS That was not - I was not told that pertinently but I assumed that people would lose their lives -that was the tactics, Chairperson. MR BRACHER If you had looked into the shop you would have seen the Ontong's son working there. There were people working in the shops neighbouring, weren't there? MR DU PLESSIS I couldn't see into the shops but I assume that there must have been people working there. MR BRACHER You'd seen on the T.V. the night before what a bomb can do in a public place - dead and injured all over the place is that not so? MR DU PLESSIS I did see that, Chairperson. MR BRACHER Mr Du Plessis, what worries me, you're still a member of the AWB, you want amnesty, what's to say that you're not going to do the same for the next election? Nothing has changed in your mind - you still subscribe to these aims and objects - you're still a member of the AWB, you're still a person who doesn't care about human life apparently. Why shouldn't you do it at the next election? MR DU PLESSIS I can only tell you that I would definitely not do it again. In those specific circumstances which reigned at that time and the instructions we were given and the promises which were made - because of that we thought we would get away with it. What happened in this specific cases we did not get away with it and the law took it's course against us and I definitely will not do it again. MR BRACHER You say definitely not? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, definitely not. MR BRACHER Under the same circumstances you would do it again. If some leader arises now between now and the next election, that you've got faith in, you would do the same again? MR DU PLESSIS No, I will not do it again? MR BRACHER Why not, what has changed? MR DU PLESSIS If I can put it this way, in the Defence Force we were indoctrinated to follow orders and to fight against the communist, physically. I mean to fight physically against them and now after these events I realise we were only used as pawns, that we had to do the dirty work for some or other political organisation and to spread propaganda for them and we got into trouble. I definitely won't do it again. MR BRACHER But if you found an organisation which you had confidence in that wasn't going to drop you, you would do it again. The Communist Party is going to be in the next election isn't it? MR DU PLESSIS I do not know. MR BRACHER Yes, I'm telling you it is. MR DU PLESSIS Then I accept it as such. MR BRACHER Will you still treat them as an enemy? MR DU PLESSIS I still regard them as an enemy of the Boere people but I would not make war against them in the next election, Chairperson. MR BRACHER Who chose the target in Germiston? MR DU PLESSIS I do not know who gave the general instruction for that bomb. MR BRACHER Who chose that spot to blow up people? MR DU PLESSIS That place if I remember correctly was indicated by Etienne le Roux, Chairperson. MR BRACHER What is his rank? MR DU PLESSIS At that time I think his rank was that of Lieutenant, Chairperson. MR BRACHER You were senior to him? MR DU PLESSIS I was his senior yes. MR BRACHER You could have overridden that instruction? MR DU PLESSIS Not on that mission. MR BRACHER Yes, exactly, exactly. Not in that mission because if you were doing it for the AWB you could override it, if you were in a splinter group that you had just joined, you can't override it, can you? MR DU PLESSIS I'd say maybe that was another grouping of the AWB. MR BRACHER Yes another grouping, not of the AWB? MR DU PLESSIS Yes of the AWB. MR BRACHER They were all members of the AWB but the ranks had all changed, different people were giving orders to different people. It was all upside down, it had nothing to do with the AWB structure. MR DU PLESSIS Seniority on those missions depended not on rank so much but on what they did before. I was a novice in that milieu. MR BRACHER Who told you that? MR DU PLESSIS Chairperson, that's how I understood it. MR BRACHER You were not a novice, you were the Commandant of Operations. There wasn't anybody more senior than you there. MR DU PLESSIS From before, I never planted any bombs. MR BRACHER That had nothing to do with it. MR DU PLESSIS I think it's got a lot to do with it. MR BRACHER You were a senior officer, if you're on an AWB mission - you don't deny that? MR DU PLESSIS I agree with that yes. MR BRACHER Now tell me what was the purpose of the Jan Smuts bomb? MR DU PLESSIS The reason which I was given by Nicolas Barnard with regards to the Jan Smuts bomb was that foreign tourists must be prevented from coming into the country. That was the reason I was given. MR BRACHER To prevent tourists from entering the country? Then why did you put it in the parking garage? MR DU PLESSIS It would have been difficult to drive the bomb into the airport itself. MR BRACHER You could park it outside the front entrance of International Arrivals? MR DU PLESSIS In what parking area are you now talking about? MR BRACHER There's a thing called a drop off area, you drop people right outside the door when they want to get on an international flight? CHAIRPERSON He wasn't going to drop people, he was going to drop a bomb. MR BRACHER You know when you go to an airport, you go to the front door and the people get out of your car and walk in - your car's parked there all day every day. You could have put your bomb there. MR DU PLESSIS Is that not where we put the bomb? MR BRACHER But why not there if you wanted to attack overseas tourists? Most overseas tourists don't go and park underground. CHAIRPERSON He's not saying he wanted to attack overseas -he wanted to discourage tourists. MR DU PLESSIS Chairperson, that specific bomb as far as I know was not aimed at killing people. That specific area - when the bomb exploded, there weren't people there, there were no people around. Inside the building there were people, yes, but the important thing here according to me is that maybe who wanted to cause damage to the building and to focus the media's attention to it and that foreign tourists would be discouraged from coming into the country. MR BRACHER There were people injured, weren't there? MR DU PLESSIS If I remember correctly, I think two people. MR BRACHER Eighteen. MR DU PLESSIS Eighteen? I don't know about that Chairperson. It might be the case. MR BRACHER Those were also innocent civilians, you weren't targeting any particular state personnel? MR DU PLESSIS No, Chairperson, they were innocent people I agree. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. Now you're saying that this bomb at Jan Smuts was not intended to kill people, yes? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Now, I have understood the evidence generally to be that the idea was to create chaos before the election and as part of that chaos, people had to be killed? MR DU PLESSIS That's correct. ADV GCABASHE Who changed this instruction, who said people should not be killed? MR DU PLESSIS Me personally, placed that bomb in such a way. I had two options, I could either plant the bomb on the middle level next to a tour bus and this bus was full of people or I could have taken the left exit and I could have placed the bomb on top of that where there were no people who were standing around outside and I took the second option to go and place it above the other level. That's where I took the decision not to kill the people in the tour bus. ADV GCABASHE Now the question is, were you authorised to change that targeting because as I've understood it, people had to be killed. This was part of the impact of your struggle. Were you authorised in those circumstances to choose one level and not the other and if so who authorised you to do that in those circumstances? MR DU PLESSIS I was not specifically told by Clifton Barnard that people had to die therefore I took the decision on my own and I thought that if the bomb explodes and the building is damaged then that would create enough publicity for us, Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Now did you discuss this with Mr le Roux? MR DU PLESSIS I did not. ADV GCABASHE Because if my memory serves me well, Mr le Roux told us that there was a specific instruction that foreigners should not be killed? MR DU PLESSIS I cannot remember that. ADV GCABASHE You know nothing at all about that? MR DU PLESSIS I cannot remember it. I cannot remember that I was told that, Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE You see this still doesn't clear up for me when you could use your own discretion and when you had to follow orders strictly, you know considering your last answer the last time I asked you about when you could use your head and when not. This is a reversal of what you said earlier. Here you used your head and put it in a non-lethal sense, not so risky area whereas with the others you didn't seem to have this discretion. MR DU PLESSIS At none of the other explosions did I have that discretion. The bomb missions on which I went the first time was to Germiston and there the decision was taken by someone, by Etienne le Roux and this bomb mission to Jan Smuts which the first mission I was on or which I led and therefore Le Roux indicated to me that I must follow that road and physically we did go to the building and I executed the instruction which I had to. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Have you got many more questions? MR BRACHER I've got about three more. Now this bomb at the airport had nothing to do with stopping the election? MR DU PLESSIS I think in a way it did have to do with the election. There were several observers from abroad who had to come through the airport but the reason I was given was to discourage foreigners from entering the country. MR BRACHER The election was just about begun by then? MR DU PLESSIS What day was the Jan Smuts bomb - was it the Wednesday? MR BRACHER It was the day of the election. MR DU PLESSIS The same day? In a sense, in a way it could have served as a way maybe stopping the elections but I don't think it would have done that. MR BRACHER What was the purpose in relation to your aims and motivation, what did you have to achieve for your motivations by this bomb? MR DU PLESSIS By planting this bomb, I thought that we could gain publicity for our Volkstaat idea. MR BRACHER Killing and causing damage does that give you the publicity you want? MR DU PLESSIS Chairperson, the strife for a Volkstaat is something that's come a very long way, a long time and it always fell on deaf ears and I'd say that these bomb explosions was a desperate attempt from our side to focus attention on our political strife. MR BRACHER You see you're the second witness who has used the word desperate. I'm putting to you that what happened at the end here, you'd failed and you were just letting off bombs in some desperate show of force by your little splinter group as an ultimate frustration of a totally failed plan or your whole organisation had disbanded just about? MR DU PLESSIS In a way it's correct - we did feel that the Volksfront and the National Party and even the AWB left us in the lurch. CHAIRPERSON Let's ask the question in a different fashion. At that time several arrests were being made. Your war was finished and as things looked, there was no chance of stopping the election, because it was already in progress, why did you then plant a bomb at the airport? MR DU PLESSIS The airport bomb was the last bomb before the people were arrested at the shooting range. CHAIRPERSON Beforehand? MR DU PLESSIS That morning we left the shooting range with the car bomb and I do not know specifically when the police arrested the people at the shooting range but I thought it was before we planted the bomb. That's when they got arrested. MR BRACHER When the pipe bombs were sent out, you were the Commandant of Operations for that operation? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct? MR BRACHER That is the first time you've been a Commandant of Operations for a pipe bomb operation? MR DU PLESSIS That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR BRACHER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BRACHER MR MALAN Thank you, Mr Chairperson, just a few questions. Mr Du Plessis, did you know that during January 1994 in the State Gazette it was announced that the establishment of a Volkstaat Council in order to discuss the idea of this Volkstaat at a very high level. In other words, the proposition was that there would be 20 members, that the people would be in parliament and that the people there who supported this idea in parliament would be included in this council? MR DU PLESSIS I was aware that there was a Volkstaat Council in order to investigate the idea of a Volkstaat and I think it was presented in parliament. MR MALAN That information, did that get to you or did you receive that information? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I knew that they did establish such a council. MR MALAN And what was the reaction of the AWB towards this suggestion in the State Gazette? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, I do not know what the reaction of the AWB was but I thought that it was just another way to deter. MR MALAN Did you not think that it was a positive step to deal with this very difficult question so close to the elections in order to defuse the situation. Terreblanche called for a war and if the government of the day went over to this positive step in order to establish a council for those who supported the idea of a Volkstaat, was that not enough? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, I do not know if the people who served on that committee did support that idea. What I know is that they were appointed to investigate it. What I thought was that the government of the day established such a council because they saw that certain rightwing groups became militant and they wanted to calm down or quiet down the rightwing. MR MALAN Is it correct if I put it to you as follows that Mr Eugene Terreblanche refused that concept? MR DU PLESSIS I cannot positively answer on that but I think that is what he would have done, yes. MR MALAN It is interesting that you mention that the groupings of the Germiston bomb group and the Jan Smuts bomb group was differently grouped as the other members at the game farm. That was your evidence? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, the Germiston bomb group originally came from Koesterfontein and that grouping of the members who were at the game farm, they wanted to include them in their activities as in the Jan Smuts bomb, an extra person was included who had to drive the vehicle. ADV MALAN The judge, on page 95 of Bundle 2, in his statement talked about the Bree Street bomb and how it was built and how it was executed and he said that the offence could have been done by the BKA of which applicants 1 - 4 were members, i.e. Myburgh, Le Roux and De Wet. Was that when you talked about a different grouping Ystergarde or AWB members? Did you not maybe indicate towards the BKA who built these bombs and planted them? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, as far as I know, those four members were not members of the BKA. ADV MALAN And you yourself? MR DU PLESSIS No I'm not a member of the BKA. ADV MALAN Page 85 - just for your comment - the judge in the second or third paragraph said the following: "In general, it is the interpretation that the Jan Smuts Airport Bombing stands alone and was executed by a conspiracy, an independent conspiracy. Evidence shows that later that evening at the shooting range that someone took a decision to make a last bomb seemingly out of frustration in order to illustrate something to the security police." What is your comment on that? MR DU PLESSIS I would not say that it was a separate grouping - the grouping was still Mr Cliff Barnard, Koekemoer still built the bomb and Cliff Barnard gave me the order to go and detonate the bomb. ADV MALAN As you understood it from Prinsloo, did you still understand the favour or as the Judge discussed it that in the end out of frustration to go out on a last mission. Did you do it out of frustration? MR DU PLESSIS Nico Prinsloo was present at the shooting range. Later that evening he left. I'm also sure that he was aware that Cliff Barnard was present there. I'm also sure that he knew that explosives were there, I think he's got the blessing. ADV MALAN I understand it was a broader part of the instruction that you got initially to execute these operations? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, that is correct. ADV MALAN Can you say Mr Randall, Mr Fred Randall, did you know him? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, I did not know him up and to that stage - I did meet him in court, at the High Court. ADV MALAN During your court case did he give evidence or testify? MR DU PLESSIS He was at the court case yes. I cannot remember if he testified or not. ADV MALAN At page 13 of Bundle A, that is at the Annexure file that was submitted, words were ascribed to Mr Randall and amongst others I quote: "According to Mr Randall the AWB plans to" - I would just like to say the date, this is the 22nd April 1994, that was now before the court case. He was quoted as follows: "According to Mr Randall the AWB plan to protect people on farms within the area, their property, the offices of town councils will also be protected" and this is the part that is important: "we are not planning to act aggressively but if our people are attacked they'll have to face the force of the whole AWB and furthermore we will not disrupt the elections. What must we do to prevent them to get to the voting polls, we will not do it because we are not kaffirs." It seems to us out of this article while the AWB was busy saying that on the 22nd, especially the 22nd April before you started with your bomb attacks that the AWB will not go over to aggression, they were not planning to do it. MR DU PLESSIS It was definitely not true, the AWB did go over to aggression. I do not remember in what capacity Mr Randall made those utterances, I heard in this hearing that he was the spokesperson of the AWB but I do not see him as the spokesperson of the leader of the AWB or of the Generals in Staff. MR MALAN A last quote, there was an article in the Citizen on the 2nd April 1996 and that was just after your court case. The headline reads as follows: "AWB never gave orders for bombings - leaders of the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging had never issued instructions to members to plant bombs to derail the April 1994 general election, AWB media spokesman, Mr Randall told the Rand Supreme Court in Germiston yesterday." Did you hear that evidence? MR DU PLESSIS I'm not aware of it no. MR MALAN It seems that in mitigating ...[inaudible] MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, I was found not guilty. MR MALAN Did you then leave? MR DU PLESSIS I do not know if I was present then, no. MR MALAN But you do identify or you don't identify yourself with that utterance of Mr Randall if it would be the truth? MR DU PLESSIS I assume that it is the truth but I do not identify or reconcile myself with that, that is not how it was conveyed to us. MR MALAN Thank you, I've got no further questions. ADV BOSMAN Can I just clarify something, you said that you do identify yourself that it is the truth, what do you mean by saying that it was the truth? MR DU PLESSIS I assume, Mr Chairperson, that Mr Randall made those utterances at the court but I'm not saying that it is the truth that it was the AWB's viewpoint. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. In Annexure A you said to the Committee it will be that orally certain things were discussed with your advocate? MR DU PLESSIS Yes that is correct. ADV BOSMAN Where did you sign your statement? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, it was a day before the Application for Amnesty had to be in, it was typed in Bloemfontein. What I can add there is that it could have been possible that I have seen that typed version, I cannot remember at this stage. ADV BOSMAN So you say it was a day before the closing, it would be then the 9th May, although it's not very clear on my copy on page 103, I don't know about your copy. So it was the 9th May in Bloemfontein where you signed it? MR DU PLESSIS Yes, I did. ADV BOSMAN No further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. We adjourn till tomorrow morning at half past nine. WITNESS EXCUSED MR PRIOR ...[inaudible] certainty over Mr Barnard's application be obtained. Unfortunately, all the investigators in Gauteng have gone down to Cape Town to a meeting. The prison authorities have indicated they are very loathe to get involved and take statements so we're at an impasse until I have an investigator to go and visit Mr Barnard at the jail. That is in the pipeline and we hope to have an answer tomorrow. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS