amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-06-24 BOKSBURG 6 PETRUS PAULUS STEYN https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52708&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98061725_bks_boksbur5.htm MR PRIOR Mr Chairman before we continue, Mrs Cambanis asked me to just extend her apology. During the adjournment she was called to the airport to pick up victims. However whatever is going to be said will be recorded and passed to her. So she is not at a disadvantage. MR PRINSLOO Chairperson and the next applicant is number 10 Petrus Paulus Steyn. That is the person in the witness stand. Thank you Chairperson. The application appears on page 172 to 186 and also on page 214 to 223. Thank you Chairperson. PETRUS PAULUS STEYN (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Thank you Chairperson. Mr Steyn you were arrested and prosecuted in the High Court together with the other applicants with regards to the pipe bomb explosions, that is in Bloed Street Western area and Randfontein. And you were found guilty on these charges and sentenced to 21 years imprisonment because of murder, attempted murder and deliberate damage of property and the possession of explosives. Do you confirm that? MR STEYN That is correct Chairperson, except that I wasn't arrested, I gave myself up. MR PRINSLOO Let me just get this right, you gave yourself in? MR STEYN That is correct. I gave myself up to the police. MR PRINSLOO Mr Steyn now you are applying for amnesty for these offences which I have just talked about? MR STEYN That is correct Chairperson. MR PRINSLOO Mr Steyn when you moved up to Ventersdorp, it is on page 182, it is actually page 181 and it carries on to page 182 it is paragraph 9. Did you take your family with you or not? MR STEYN Not at the beginning Chairperson. I left on my own to Ventersdorp and afterwards I arrived at head office. I first wanted to go and summarise the whole situation and discuss it because I did not receive the call-up instruction very clearly. When I arrived at Ventersdorp Brigadier Leon van der Merwe and Major Johan Smit I found them there at head office. I explained to them what my situation was and told them that I would like to see my commander Abe Fourie and there they told me that it is impossible, I cannot go and see him because they are on a farm outside of Ventersdorp and if I join them I would not be able to leave that farm again. MR PRINSLOO Why would you not be able to leave again Mr Steyn? MR STEYN Because apparently the place they were at they told me that a few people was to know about that place. It was quite a secretive place and the women and children and a certain group of people I do not know who exactly was gathered there but that is what they told me and that I cannot go there, and if I wanted to go there at that stage I would have to stay there. I would not be able to leave that place. I assumed after a while that this was the farm of, what's his name, the accused who refuses to appear in front of the Committee. MR PRINSLOO Mr Barnard? MR STEYN That is correct, it was on his farm. MR PRINSLOO And your wife and children what happened to them? MR STEYN They told me that they recommend me to go and fetch them and my wife at that stage, my children were too small, told me that she was not happy with the situation because you can't just leave everything behind without any clarity and just move up somewhere. And there they persuaded me that I must go back to go and fetch my wife and children. MR PRINSLOO Did you do that? MR STEYN I did that after they made certain promises to me. MR PRINSLOO Who made the promises? MR STEYN The promises came from both Major Johan Smit and Brigadier Leon van der Merwe. The promises said that I do not have to be worried about food if we do not have food, I do not have to worry about money either and also I do not have to worry about my job. At that stage I was working in Brakpan, Western Platinum Refinery and I had a permanent post there. MR PRINSLOO What did you do then? MR STEYN At that stage I was on sick leave so I moved up or rather I went to go and fetch my wife and I convinced her which was quite difficult, but eventually I did convince her that we must go together. Also after they told me that they intercepted a fax of the Ystergarde which said that if they found any Ystergarde anywhere he will be eliminated, he will be killed. MR PRINSLOO So did you go to Ventersdorp with your family? MR STEYN MR PRINSLOO Did your wife accompany you then? MR STEYN Yes. MR PRINSLOO And your children? MR STEYN Yes the children were with us as well. MR PRINSLOO And where did your wife and children go? Where were they taken? MR STEYN We arrived at head office, at that stage the people at head office were so busy and many people were arriving at head office and as it is at any office they were trying to put things right for the day's tasks and the first things which was given to us they gave me a form which I had to complete, similar to what you would fill in when you go on a border operation. You would put down your religious connections, etc and your particulars, the names of the next-of-kin. I did that and after that, I am not dead sure but somebody arrived there from the farm and at a later time that day we went to the farm, this is the farm of Cliff Barnard. MR PRINSLOO Mr Steyn we have already heard evidence that you, Mr Nel and Mr Gert Fourie the three of you went to Pretoria with the pipe bombs. is that correct? MR STEYN That is correct. MR PRINSLOO And can you tell the Committee what happened in Pretoria, what did you do that day with regards to the pipe bombs? MR STEYN Chairperson I do not know where to start. Can I start at Pretoria itself? MR PRINSLOO Yes begin with what happened in Pretoria. MR STEYN When we arrived in Pretoria after, I do not know Pretoria well not even today. I do not know how to get in and out of Pretoria but the other applicant, Mr Jaco Nel according to myself knew Pretoria very well and when we arrived in Pretoria we went to certain places, amongst others we went to a taxi rank. There was a lot of police in the vicinity and he said that we cannot then detonate this pipe bomb in that vicinity because we will definitely be arrested if we happen to do that. Afterwards we went to several other places. I am not sure, I do not know Pretoria very well, I know it badly. MR PRINSLOO Which place did you go to? What is this place you went to or places? Did I hear you incorrectly did you say a place or places? MR STEYN Places amongst others I am not sure. We went to another taxi rank, I am not sure, there were a lot of buses and things there but in that vicinity there was also a lot of police and there were a lot of police activities. Once again we returned to the first taxi rank. I do not know exactly where it was, the circumstances were basically the same. Then he recommended - well actually together we decided that we would not be able to complete that mission then because as soon as we throw the bomb we would be arrested. MR PRINSLOO Who of you three was the senior? MR STEYN The applicant who has just spoken before, Mr Jaco Nel. His rank was that of Captain. MR PRINSLOO Were you his subordinate? MR STEYN Yes I was a lieutenant in the Ystergarde and the other applicant who will still appear, Gert Fourie was also a Lieutenant. MR PRINSLOO Continue? MR STEYN Afterwards after we decided that this attempt of ours would not be successful he recommended that he knew people in a flat, friends of his. It seemed to me as if they were his friends but when we got there it was a female friend of his at a flat. I do not exactly where this was and I would not be able to confirm even today where this was. We arrived there and we parked the vehicle in the street in front of the flat and the two pipe bombs were in the back in the boot at that stage and then we found the people in the flat. There were two ladies, an older one and a younger one if I remember correctly. The younger girl I do not know exactly how old she was I would say she was about ten. MR PRINSLOO Were there any men there? MR STEYN No not at all Chairperson. He chatted to them and he introduced us to them and then they offered us some coffee and after we had finished our coffee they were busy with packing. We couldn't determine if they were leaving on holiday or what was going on but afterwards I found out or I learned from them as we were speaking that they were also members of the AWB but they were unknown to me because they did not live in my area or my district. The two ladies and the young girl, after they packed their things Jaco Nel asked them if we can use their flat just to stay over for the night. I do not know if he gave them any reasons, I cannot really say because I was not with them the whole time. He was moving around quite often within this building, mostly in the foyer where we drank coffee we sat there. He went with them to the room and helped them to pack and they had a vehicle I think it was a blue Golf and they moved around in this vehicle. They had lean to where they parked the car underneath. This was at the flat where they stayed. I am not sure but I think Jaco asked them if they could not pull the car out and whilst they were putting their luggage into the Golf, Jaco pulled his car underneath this lean-to so that the car wouldn't be visible because at that stage he still had the original registration plates on the car and there was talk that he would put forged number plates on it later. After a while the people left and when they left Jaco Nel told them that he would see them later because he knew where they were going. Apparently it was a resort at the Hartebeespoort dam where they were going. I still to this day do not know where that place is but I confirm that I was there myself. They used this place for training purposes according to him. MR PRINSLOO Let's stick to what happened in Pretoria. MR STEYN Afterwards they also said - let's stay with Pretoria, afterwards they left and we were there alone. Then we walked to town. We knew that we couldn't go on a mission then because of the strong presence of the police. I had a shoe problem, the sole of my shoe went loose, this is the shoe I was wearing. If I remember correctly we went to the OK Bazaars and I bought myself a pair of takkies or trainers. I think Jaco also bought something it might have been clothing, everybody bought something there. MR PRINSLOO At that stage did you get any number plates? MR STEYN This was at the same time that we went to the OK. Jaco said we had to stand on the one side of the road and that he is quickly going to get number plates made, so he went to the place where he made the number plates and he had to wait awhile. In the meantime - he said he will go and fetch it later, so in the meantime we went to the OK and when we went back he got the number plates. MR PRINSLOO Were these number plates similar to the ones he had? MR STEYN No they were just different. MR PRINSLOO So obtained these number plates. And these number plates did you attach it to the vehicle? MR STEYN The number plates later that day when we drove we changed the number plates, we removed the original ones. MR PRINSLOO Those number plates - did you drive again in the evening with the vehicle or at any other time? MR STEYN I am not a hundred percent sure, during that time while we were there I am not sure if Jaco was driving with his vehicle or whether he was driving with the females vehicle. He might have said that he wanted to go around to his wife. At that stage I was not sure of his wife and the problems between the two of them so I did not know anything of that, I assumed that he was going to go to his wife. MR PRINSLOO So he left the flat for a while? MR STEYN Yes he left alone but myself and Gert Fourie stayed behind on our own at the flat. MR PRINSLOO And Jaco Nel, did he return later? MR STEYN Yes he returned later. MR PRINSLOO Now with regards to that specific evening to come closer to the event, did you drive again? Did you go and look for a target? MR STEYN We went back to this taxi rank where there was still a lot of police around but according to me there was even a stronger police presence than it was the morning or the time we were there during the morning. Afterwards Jaco said, I am not sure, he said he was going to drive to another taxi rank, the one we went to the previous day. On the way there, this is a type of a beer hall or something, I don't know what you would call it, we drove past this place and there were quite a lot of people around and vehicles were parked at the side of this building and I assumed these were the peoples' vehicles who were inside the hall. Jaco then said what is wrong with this place. We looked at the place and we said well whether we throw it at a taxi stand or whether we detonate it here it doesn't matter, as long as we only achieve our goal which was to shock people and to create the psychosis of fear within them so that they would be aware of the fact that bombs are exploding and that they will receive a message some way or another, a message saying that they should not go and vote. That was the instruction which we received, we had to sow panic. MR PRINSLOO So did you decide it was an appropriate target? MR STEYN Ja we decided it was appropriate but mostly Jaco. It was mostly Jaco's target but we identified ourselves with him because we were his subordinates. MR PRINSLOO So it was his instruction, is that what you are saying? MR STEYN Yes. MR PRINSLOO Now at that stage did you use the pipe bomb? MR STEYN I was a passenger, I was sitting on the left at the back of the car and I had the pipe bomb between my legs. At that stage Jaco told me that he was going to drive slowly past this place and I must light this thing and I must throw it out of the car. If I remember correctly there was a telephone pole or a lamp post, he just drove past that and he told me to throw it. The car was kind of idling it was almost standing still so I ignited this thing and I was very stressed and nervous because I have never had to deal with anything like this so I threw it out onto the side-walk and because it was a pipe and it was round it was rolling and it rolled towards the building and then I closed my door and Jaco sped away from there. Before this happened we put it clearly to Jaco that, we asked him is he aware of this vicinity does he know this street but he assured us he basically grew up in Pretoria. So he knew Pretoria well and the way he drove towards the taxi ranks you could see that he knew the place well. When he sped away from there it was as if it wasn't Jaco any longer, he was shocked. Before the first street we turned off, it was a one-way street, he drove left into a one-way street and a police truck came from the front and we moved closer to this police van. I do not know if the police van was in a rush because he did not pay attention to us. Afterwards he turned left into a right street and it was a double lane as I can remember, then he went left and right and up and down. I do not know where he went from there. MR PRINSLOO Why did he act this way? MR STEYN Just after the police van passed us we heard the bang, that is when the pipe bomb exploded. I do not know if it was the bang or the loud noise or whether he was shocked, I do not know why that was his reaction but he was in a state. He drove over stop streets and he didn't stop at places where he was supposed to stop. He disobeyed all the traffic rules. I cannot really say what why he acted this way but if I must express my own opinion I think it was a shock to him. I do not think, according to me he did not know anything about bombs or pipe bombs or anything of that nature. MR PRINSLOO Were you worried about being arrested? MR STEYN Yes we all were worried about this, that is why we postponed this mission all the time and we also said amongst ourselves that the people at the game farm must realise that you would rather be scared than dead. You can't detonate the thing here and the police would see you and will arrest you and you would probably get shot as well. MR PRINSLOO He acted in this manner the way you described it and from there where did you go then? MR STEYN After that Jaco went to some place, I do not know where. He stopped there - no, I am sorry, I would just like to correct myself, before we went on this mission we went to a place where we put the number plates on or changed the number plates. I almost confused myself there, I wanted to say we took them off there but we drove with those number plates to that holiday resort. MR PRINSLOO Why did you go there? MR STEYN Jaco apparently said, and he said it in our presence as well, that he would meet the people there and said that he would go around there and that is also what happened. He then drove there and while we were driving there Jaco was still very shocked according to what we observed. He also told us that we will not get very far, we will not be able to go back to the game farm because he knows this Hartebeespoort Dam road and there are usually road-blocks on this road and that they will arrest us if some one may have noticed a vehicle. He was worried about the police van that drove past us in that one-way street. That he possibly, because I assumed he was not very far from where the bomb exploded and they could have thought that this is the vehicle or they could have thought that this is the vehicle, and he could have identified a blue Toyota although he did not have the right number plates. A point that Jaco then made was that we have to stay there that evening before we drive away because of the road-blocks and everything calms down a bit and then whenever we see that things are quietening down we can then go back to the game farm. MR PRINSLOO Did you then go to this specific place, this resort? MR STEYN Yes I was at this resort. When we arrived there we changed the number plates again, we put on the original ones and in the meantime Jaco went in. The same people were there, the specific two ladies and amongst others, as in his evidence, there were two older men. They were blind yes. They could play very good guitar. They were old Rhodesians, they came from there and they sang songs and they played on the guitars and we sang. We did not sing with them no, we listened to them and in the meantime they told us that they had certain discussions and they said that they are from Rhodesia, etc. Jaco then went into one of the rooms there. There wasn't a door on this room there was just a curtain. They then went into this room and most of the time we heard them talking. I assumed that what we also told them was that Jaco is not feeling very well because we did not want them to know at that stage that we planted the bomb or threw the bomb. Afterwards I am not sure if they wanted to see if they could help Jaco or maybe give him some medication or something, I do not know what the situation was. We waited for Jaco and in the meantime we sat in a kitchen area. The older lady came there at one stage and asked us if we wanted coffee and we said yes it would be nice. She made us coffee as well as for the two older men who played the guitar. That was more or less the story. What we also observed or saw was that there were a lot of other people who we also learnt while we had certain discussions with the two old men, that there were also other people there who were members of the AWB and who gathered there together. I do not know if Jaco was aware of that but according to these two old men they conveyed that to us. MR PRINSLOO From there did you then leave the three of you? MR STEYN No I am not quite sure. When we left there I was quite tired because the previous evening before we left the game farm I was doing guard duty so I did not have much sleep because when I came back from guard duty we then left there. I tried to sleep in the car but it was very difficult with this bomb that we were carrying with us. MR PRINSLOO Can you remember that during your hearing there was a woman who gave evidence against Mr Nel concerning what happened at that resort? MR STEYN Yes I am aware of that but I cannot exactly remember what she said. MR PRINSLOO You then left from the resort? MR STEYN Yes that is true. MR PRINSLOO And what time was that, can you say? MR STEYN I am not quite sure but if I must say it was around 2 o' clock that morning more or less, I am not quite sure. MR PRINSLOO Mr Steyn, the history has been told before this Committee how do you feel about the people who were killed and injured as well as the people in Western area, the damages that was done in Randfontein, how do you feel about these actions? MR STEYN My personal feeling is that I am very sorry about what happened. I do not know if one can really tell the next-of-kin of those victims, to ask them properly or to tell them properly how sorry you are and convince them, if I can say it as follows, for such a cowardice display or act. At this stage I will put it as such, at that stage I believed in what I was doing was the right thing and I did it for my volk and my fatherland and I believed in what I was doing it was the right thing. MR PRINSLOO At that stage did you act by yourself or did you act on behalf of the AWB? MR STEYN I acted fully on behalf of the AWB and I identified myself with their objectives. MR PRINSLOO Mr Steyn, you handed yourself over a while after these events, is that correct? ...[transcriber's own translation] MR STEYN Yes that is correct. MR PRINSLOO Mr Steyn, your application, do you confirm the correctness of your application, that is A and B as well as your application. MR STEYN Yes that is correct. MR PRINSLOO Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO . CHAIRPERSON Mrs van der Walt have you got any questions? MS VAN DER WALT I have got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KRIEL Thank you Mr Chairperson. Sir what was the objectives of the AWB as you understood it then? MR STEYN Mr Chairperson the objectives of the AWB was to obtain an own Volkstaat for the Boerevolk. MR KRIEL Is that all? MR STEYN No, the objectives were also such that, the AWB's objective was to stop the elections and to undermine the government of the day in order to create chaos during that election time. MR KRIEL Was that the only objective of the AWB during April 1994? MR STEYN No Mr Chairperson, the objectives, there were various objectives. The main objective was the obtainment of a Volkstaat and that was also why we were called up. MR KRIEL Were you called up to found this Volkstaat or to protect a future Volkstaat? MR STEYN If there was time we would have established or founded it if we received permission but at that stage there wasn't time because the so-called Volkstaat's borders, we would have been able to protect it and then try and fight and by doing that found the Volkstaat. MR KRIEL You see that is the problem. You were there gathered together and right through the evidence I understand, to protect but not to attack, did you understand it in that way that you are there to protect? MR STEYN Could you please repeat? MR KRIEL You were called up to the Western Transvaal, the Ventersdorp area to protect the farmers and the people and the Volkstaat that will be founded, to protect that. MR STEYN I do not understand the question very well. MR KRIEL You went to Ventersdorp to protect not to attack, with the original call-up instruction? MR STEYN No we did not go there just to protect, we were called up to Ventersdorp to make war. That was our call-up instructions, they told us that and that is why I accepted it when they call me up, that I must take all my weapons and ammunition and equipment with me and if there would be any situation I would have to execute those orders. CHAIRPERSON You see Mr Steyn in a war there are at least two sides, the one attack, the one protect, defend. It does not necessarily mean that when you are called up to make war that you will attack. Now what Mr Kriel is referring to is that during that evidence that we have heard it was said: "We were called up to Ventersdorp to protect the borders of the planned Volkstaat as well as the Boerevolk who were attacked at the farm", do you understand? MR STEYN Yes. CHAIRPERSON And that is what Mr Kriel is referring to, not to attack but to defend and in so doing to make war. MR STEYN Yes that is correct, to protect and defend. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL ADV GCABASHE Thank you, unless you wanted to follow that up with something. My question again is related to the same aspect. To make war as you understood it - is that alright, to make war as you understood it against whom, because the evidence to date covers the NP, the ANC, communists, black people, where do you fit your political motive in? And the political objective of the AWB as you understood it? MR STEYN Mr Chairperson a lot of things were asked to me, maybe if you could just ask it in a shorter way? MR MALAN The question - if I can speak Afrikaans to you I will ask them one by one, the question is that the war that you were talking about against whom would this be, the ANC? MR STEYN The war would be against the ANC Mr Chairperson. MR MALAN Against the SACP? MR STEYN Yes the SACP alliance. MR MALAN Against black people? MR STEYN No not necessarily all the black people. MR MALAN Against white people? MR STEYN Against white people, we would fight a war if they identified themselves with the ANC's policy. MR MALAN Against the National Party? MR STEYN At that stage they were also one of our enemies. MR MALAN What does such a war look like? Have you ever thought to yourself, if the war is now going on where am I, who do I shoot? Did you have a picture in your mind? MR STEYN Mr Chairperson, at that stage I would have believed that all the promises that they made there would be better planning, and I am not saying these things to make war just because our little group did something and they didn't do anything but there were also other people who made promises namely, Constand Viljoen them and people like him, made promises and then great things could have happened in this country. MR MALAN Mr Steyn, am I correct if I say that you did not have any idea how that war would be fought, where it is going to begin, who is going to shoot first, where you are going to shoot, you just want to fight in this war and you were satisfied to fight in this war of the AWB? MR STEYN I was satisfied with the fighting in a war. I was not, and I think only a few people could say what this war would have looked like and how it would have happened. MR MALAN Did you think that on game farm you would sit behind one of the sleeping places and dodge and people are shooting at you? ...[transcriber's own translation] MR STEYN But at that stage I still assumed that it was more in a beginning stage, the game farm, and I did not realise the real purpose of the whole situation at that stage. MR MALAN Did you think that you will fire the first shot or that people would shoot at you? MR STEYN I cannot really say, there we would have had to wait for instructions. MR MALAN So you didn't have any idea what this war would look like, you just knew that you were going to fight in a war? MR STEYN That is correct yes. ADV GCABASHE Now you said in your evidence that the reason you did not take your wife the first time was because you wanted to seek clarity on what exactly was going on, yes? MR STEYN That is correct yes. ADV GCABASHE But you didn't really get any clarity at all did you? MR STEYN After I spoke to Leon van der Merwe and they convinced me, I relied on them in the promises they made and I believed that we could rely on them and I did rely on them. ADV GCABASHE But they simply said to you: "We are going to make war", you didn't really know what you would be doing, how exactly you could fulfil your own ambition as an AWB member through your organisation. You were really just there to take instructions. MR STEYN That is correct yes. ADV GCABASHE So if they had said to you we are going back to, let's take the Bophuthatswana incident, if they had said to you that is where we are going to start, Mangope wants us to do something for him again, you would have done that because they were ordering you to do that and not because you believed you should be going to protect Mangope or prop him up? MR STEYN No Mr Chairperson, it was not part of our Volkstaat's ideal. CHAIRPERSON Why did you go to Bophuthatswana? MR STEYN I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON Why did the AWB go to Bophuthatswana? MR STEYN I carry no knowledge of that, I was not involved there. CHAIRPERSON Did the people not say to you: "We are going to Bophuthatswana for this or that? MR STEYN I saw it over the news and I heard some of it. CHAIRPERSON But in the AWB circles, didn't they discuss it? MR STEYN According to me there were a few AWB members involved in the Bophuthatswana incident. CHAIRPERSON As far as I can remember they did take responsibility for it or am I wrong? MR STEYN I am not quite sure no. CHAIRPERSON Continue. MR KRIEL Mr Chairperson, as a result of your indication earlier this morning, I can see now that it is 3 o clock, do you want me to continue? CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR KRIEL Sir it seems as if you are a very soft person, is that so? This is how it appears to me. I am now talking, I am not a lawyer any more I am talking a man to man. MR MALAN ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON What feeling do you get? MR KRIEL That he is a very soft spoken person and gentle person. MR STEYN Mr Chairperson, I am gentle but I do not think that you must get me at the wrong side. MR KRIEL I would just like to make the comment that you do remind me of Gerrie Coetzee when he was younger. Would you agree with that? MR STEYN Ja. CHAIRPERSON ...(inaudible) MR KRIEL His appearance Mr Chairperson. You were sent by the then government to go and fight in a war in 1979 to 1981, is that correct? MR STEYN Please repeat? MR KRIEL You were sent by the then government to go and fight in a war during the period of 1979 to July 1981? MR STEYN That is correct yes. MR KRIEL What rank did you have while you were busy with those border operations? MR STEYN I was a troop. MR KRIEL And did that war have any effect on you? MR STEYN Mr Chairperson, we went through many things. MR KRIEL I am sorry I did not hear your answer. MR STEYN Yes it did have an effect on me. MR KRIEL What was the effect that it had on you? MR STEYN That you were taken from your home, for two years you must do service, suddenly you are at the border, you were sent into an Angola without a passport in another country. CHAIRPERSON Would a passport have helped? MR STEYN No, I am just mentioning it now. You were sent into an Angola, you are in an operation and you fight for self-determination also at that stage we fought for this country against communism and communism at that time was the ANC government or the present government, the majority of them, and SWAPO and the PAC. There was a lot of loss of life and some of our own people who were with us we lost them there. CHAIRPERSON Mr Steyn, if there was not an alliance with the communists, what would your attitude have been towards the ANC? MR STEYN I do not understand. CHAIRPERSON It seems to me that the communism, communistic aspect of the ANC was a problem and that you fought against communism. What would your attitude be towards the ANC if they did not have an alliance with the communists? MR STEYN I believe that my attitude would have been different Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON To what effect? MR STEYN If they were not part of our enemy then you can classify him differently. CHAIRPERSON Now the Nationalists as far as I know did not have a communists aspect in their policy, why were they the enemy? MR STEYN Because they were traitors in my eyes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR MALAN I just want to make sure I understand you correctly, you say your attitude towards the ANC would have been different if the communists were not part of them, if you saw the ANC as non-communistic. Now I just want to make sure, would that have meant then that you would have been satisfied that they run the country, the whole country that is? You said that you wanted a Volkstaat? MR STEYN That is correct. MR MALAN The Volkstaat is an old ideal that comes from the time the AWB was founded, several times before that. Let's try and put it differently, if things - you know who Inkatha is? MR STEYN Yes. MR MALAN They not communists as far as you are concerned? MR STEYN Yes. MR MALAN And you were in favour of them? MR STEYN That is correct. MR MALAN If you realised that Inkatha was going to govern the whole country, they are going to have the majority vote, would you have been happy then? MR STEYN Yes Chairperson but we still would have wanted our own Volkstaat where we could have self-determination. MR MALAN So the own Volkstaat is non-negotiable whether you are dealing with communists or not? MR STEYN That is correct Chairperson. MR KRIEL You went through a war in 1979 and 1981 and you saw that it did not work, it did not help, you were completely dissatisfied with what you achieved, is that correct? MR STEYN I wasn't dissatisfied we did achieve a lot but the then National government, and if I remember correctly in the nineties the PAC and the ANC they disbanded these organisations and they made them legal if I can put it that way, it was no longer an illegal affair this ANC, PAC. That told me that we did not fight for nothing but if only they helped us at that stage then it would have been different. MR KRIEL But in your eyes this country you fought for during the border war this is being given away by the Nationalists now. MR STEYN That is correct. MR KRIEL Sir why did you want to become involved in a second war? MR STEYN Chairperson it is to fight for self-determination, I was willing to give my life for that. CHAIRPERSON Sir, a few months before this event the AWB, these were the allegations, they tried to do something to Bophuthatswana and according to reports they lost very badly there. What made you think that you could face the force of South Africa, white and black during the elections? MR STEYN Chairperson, as I already testified, according to myself and the information which was available to me there were a very few AWB members who went to Bophuthatswana, the majority of them were Freedom Front people. CHAIRPERSON I am not going to argue with you but what made you think that you can face the force of the rest of South Africa and win? MR STEYN Chairperson, if we can go back into the history, it is the same as the Battle of Bloodriver where there were only a few Boers and they defeated a great majority of people because their religious life was intact. I think in this case as well, if your religion is right then you don't have to have a massive force behind you in order to be victorious. MR KRIEL Sir, when you received your training for the then National government in the army were you indoctrinated? MR STEYN Chairperson, I do not understand that word. I have boxed already, I'm sorry. MR KRIEL That aspect I will leave Mr Chairman. Let's continue. You were scared to take your wife with you but when the promises were made you decided well now I am going to take my wife to Ventersdorp, is that correct? MR STEYN I wasn't scared to take her, the choice was hers, I just didn't want to leave her there on her own. MR KRIEL Where did she live when you moved to Ventersdorp the first time? MR STEYN In the Springs district. MR KRIEL And they made promises to you and they told you there would be food? MR STEYN That is correct. MR KRIEL They told you money is not a problem? MR STEYN That is so yes. MR KRIEL And they told you there is work because we are going to take over and we are going to found this Wesbou and you are going to have a job to protect and secure the towns on the West Rand. MR STEYN Not West Rand, West Transvaal. MR KRIEL West Transvaal I am sorry. So as a result of those promises you were prepared to go back and fetch your wife and to then further take part in the struggle, is that correct. MR STEYN That is correct. MR KRIEL You were positioned or posted to the game farm, can you remember which day? MR STEYN The 22nd I arrived at Ventersdorp, after that we went to Cliff Barnard's farm and that same day the big group who was there together with them we left for Ottosdal and from there the men went to the game farm. MR KRIEL Which day was that, you went to Pretoria on the Monday? MR STEYN The Friday the morning I arrived at the head office in Ventersdorp and the Friday afternoon the big group which was at Clifton Barnard's farm left for Ottosdal to another farm which was more appropriate or more fit for the women. That is the conclusion I made. MR KRIEL Which day did you arrive at the game farm? Was it the Saturday? MR STEYN It was the Saturday morning very early. MR KRIEL And you stood guard - let me put it this way, did you know the members of the Generals in staff? MR STEYN I knew some of them Chairperson. MR KRIEL On the Saturday or the Sunday were there any members of the Generals in staff at the game farm? MR STEYN Yes amongst others I saw General Nico Prinsloo there and Brigadier Leon van der Merwe was also there. MR KRIEL Were they there all the time or did they move back and forth from this place? MR STEYN I didn't see them all the time. I know at one stage Brigadier Leon van der Merwe was there with a motor cycle and then he left and the motor bike was tied to the back of the pick-up. I don't think they were there the whole time. MR KRIEL Very well, the Sunday evening when this meeting was called and Koper Myburgh demonstrated the pipe bombs to you, were you there? MR STEYN Yes I was there. MR KRIEL Was a request then made to people who had vehicles? MR STEYN Yes, they were looking for drivers with their own cars. MR KRIEL And who asked this, was this Jannie du Plessis? MR STEYN Commandant Johan du Plessis. MR KRIEL Did he ask for drivers or did he appoint drivers? MR STEYN I am not sure now, I think he asked for drivers. MR KRIEL Did he say I am looking for four drivers? MR STEYN That is correct. MR KRIEL With vehicles? MR STEYN That is correct. MR KRIEL And how is it that you then got together with Jaco Nel, you and Gert Fourie? MR STEYN Gert Fourie I do not know about but I know Jaco asked me if I would accompany him and I conceded to that. MR KRIEL And Gert Fourie, how was it that he joined you? MR STEYN It was only me and Jaco Nel and a while afterwards, from what I could tell Gert Fourie was doing guard duty and then I do not know if he arrived there afterwards, but they asked him if he also wants to accompany us. MR KRIEL So he was asked to join you? MR STEYN Yes. ADV GCABASHE You say Jaco Nel asked you if you would go with him. Was that an instruction or a request? MR STEYN In my eyes it was an instruction. If such a person ask you that kind of a question in such a situation then you would see it as an instruction. ADV GCABASHE But du Plessis did not instruct you or ask you to go with Nel did he? MR STEYN No, du Plessis did not give me an instruction directly. ADV GCABASHE Now when Nel asked you was this in du Plessis' presence or were you on your own at that stage? MR STEYN I am not sure, du Plessis was in the vicinity but I do not know if he heard him asking me that or if he knew about it. ADV GCABASHE Now in those circumstances who was your commanding officer? MR STEYN The commanding officer of operations was Commandant "Duppie" du Plessis. ADV GCABASHE And yet you took an instruction as you term it or understood it from Nel? MR STEYN That is correct. What I understood about the grouping there was that the drivers had to find themselves two people to join them and he approached me and I told him I would go with him. ADV GCABASHE So it was at the driver's discretion to pick the people he thought should accompany him on a mission? MR STEYN I would assume that yes. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. ADV BOSMAN Mr Steyn who said that the drivers must find people to accompany them? MR STEYN Chairperson, I am not hundred percent sure but if I must say I will say that instruction came specifically from Johan du Plessis. ADV BOSMAN Let me put it this way, you say you are not quite sure. Who was in charge of this grouping? MR STEYN It was Johan du Plessis. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. MR KRIEL You went to Pretoria would you agree with me that the events on Monday in Pretoria the way you describe it is not exactly the same as what Jaco Nel said, would you agree with that? MR STEYN Would you please repeat? MR KRIEL That what happened on the Monday in Pretoria and the way you described it to the Committee it is not the same how Jaco Nel described it, would you agree with that? MR STEYN Yes. MR KRIEL Now both versions cannot be the truth, would you agree with that? MR STEYN No it cannot both be true. MR KRIEL So one of you took the Committee into your trust, either you or Jaco Nel. MR STEYN I cannot confirm that Mr Chair. CHAIRPERSON In other words which one of you are speaking the truth you or Jaco Nel between the two of you? MR STEYN I took an oath saying that I will tell the truth and according to me what I am telling you is the truth. MR KRIEL Thank you Chairperson, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KRIEL . CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MOTLAUNG Thank you Mr Chairman. Sir talking about the way you ultimately found yourself going to Pretoria or being part of the Pretorian mission it is not your evidence that "Duppie" Johan du Plessis ever asked you to be party to any mission correct? MR STEYN As far as I can remember no. MR MOTLAUNG And to the extent that Jaco Nel asked you to accompany him and you say that you agreed to go along, Did you agree to go along because you viewed him as your senior or because he was one of the drivers that asked you to accompany him? MR STEYN Chairperson, I went because he was one of my seniors. MR MOTLAUNG When you were now on the mission in Pretoria, was there a commander among the three of you? MR STEYN I do not understand the question. MR MOTLAUNG Who was the leader of the mission? MR STEYN If I must use my own discretion then I would say this is the way we were trained, it would have been Jaco Nel. MR MOTLAUNG Understand look apparently it is a conclusion or an inference that you are now making. I am trying to understand at the time when you went on the mission, is that how you understood it that Jaco Nel was the leader, is that how everybody understood it amongst the three of you? MR STEYN I do not understand. CHAIRPERSON If a decision had be taken amongst the three of you who could have made that decision? MR STEYN Definitely Jaco Nel Chairperson. MR MOTLAUNG And Sir, were you there when instructions were given by Johan du Plessis about the mission to Pretoria? Let me not put it that way, when - according to paragraph 12 and I quote "Every vehicle driver found him two passengers and they were tasked to go and throw pipe bombs in certain towns." When this happened, the only impression that I get here is that people were told that bombs would have to be thrown or used in certain towns, that is all that that is saying. MR STEYN That is correct. Commandant "Duppie" was present when he gave us these instructions. I do not know if he specifically gave me an instruction. MR MOTLAUNG As you understood them at the time, did anybody say that the pipe bombs must be used at the taxi ranks? MR STEYN That is correct, the pipe bombs had to be thrown at the taxi ranks. I would assume that because you wouldn't often find a white taxi rank. ADV GCABASHE No, but the question is one of fact, did you hear anybody say those bombs should be thrown at black taxi ranks? Don't assume, what did you hear? MR STEYN Yes Chairperson. MR MOTLAUNG Did you hear anybody say that? MR STEYN That is correct Chairperson. MR MOTLAUNG Who was it? MR STEYN It was Commandant "Duppie". MR MOTLAUNG Are you sure about that Sir? MR STEYN I am almost a hundred percent sure Chairperson. MR MOTLAUNG So when you went out to Pretoria you knew that you were going to throw a pipe bomb at the black commuters, is that what you are saying? MR STEYN That is correct Chairperson. MR MOTLAUNG So your intention was to kill them? MR STEYN I wouldn't say to specifically kill them but ...(intervention) CHAIRPERSON What did you think what was going to happen if you throw a bomb there? MR STEYN The possibility existed that they could have been killed but not in all regards. Can I just make it clear? I did not know the strength or the explosion power of that pipe bomb. CHAIRPERSON You must have heard last week it was specifically said that peoples' lives had to be taken. Did you not hear that? MR STEYN I did hear it. CHAIRPERSON So why are we battling here? MR STEYN What I am trying to say Chairperson, is that when we threw the bomb we did not know if people would die or not. ADV BOSMAN Can I put it to you this way Mr Steyn, did you have peace whether people die or not? MR STEYN It was part of our task and Chairperson if people had to die it was one of those things. ADV BOSMAN If you can just give me a simple yes or no. I don't want to push you into a corner, I simply want an answer. You didn't care whether people died or not? MR STEYN Yes. MR MOTLAUNG Sir, listening to the way you gave your testimony and particularly when you were talking about Jaco Nel I am getting an impression and please correct me if it is wrong, that somewhere you feel like you have been abused, like at some stage he took you to some place, it later turned out it is like this was a girlfriend or things like that. Is that impression correct? MR STEYN That is so Chairperson. MR MOTLAUNG And finally, Sir tell me when you went to Pretoria you saw yourself executing a mission as endowed or given to you by Johan du Plessis, correct? MR STEYN That is correct. MR MOTLAUNG And is it also correct that he gave you a particular target that you must go for, correct? MR STEYN That is correct. MR MOTLAUNG You did not go for the target that you have been given, yourself, Jaco Nel and the other one is Mr Gert Fourie decided within your own wisdom at some stage that you are changing the target, correct? MR STEYN That is correct Chairperson. Actually it was not my decision but I identified myself with it. It was impossible to throw the pipe bomb at a taxi rank. MR MOTLAUNG Knowing that you operated like a soldier you knew that now you are carrying out your own mission, this is not the mission that you had been sent out on, correct? MR STEYN No Chairperson, even though we did use our own discretion at that stage it was put clearly to us that we do not go back unless an explosion takes place. MR MOTLAUNG Are you saying that were told that you must go for the black taxi rank or if you can't find a black taxi rank go for anything else otherwise I would have really wanted to hear it before hand. Is that your evidence? MR PRINSLOO Chairperson, that is not what he testified, he specifically explained what happened and why they targeted another target. CHAIRPERSON But he did add that he used his own discretion or that is the impression he gave us. MR PRINSLOO But in all respect the way I understand his evidence was that the bomb had to explode. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but what does it mean when he says you must see that the bomb explode: "You do not return", or words to that effect, "unless you made a bomb explode". MR PRINSLOO That is correct he must make sure the bomb goes off but with respect, he doesn't mean that he had to use his own discretion. CHAIRPERSON Oh then I do not know. MR MOTLAUNG So Mr Steyn, the discretion that you are now talking about is your own discretion that you gave yourself, nobody gave you the discretion about the targets, correct? MR STEYN No Mr Chairperson, the discretion was not my responsibility what to do, the discretion was Jaco Nel's, he chose this specific place and we just had to identify with him or reconcile with his decision. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MOTLAUNG . CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRIOR Mr Steyn just in short three points. I know that it is late but it is not fair to put such limitations. It would have been stupid to detonate the bomb if the police was in the area? MR STEYN That is true yes. MR PRIOR As I understand your position you wanted to plant the bomb there or throw the bomb there but because the police was there you decided against it? MR STEYN Yes that is correct. MR PRIOR And then later that evening you threw it at another place? MR STEYN Yes were there twice at that specific place. MR PRIOR When Mr Myburgh demonstrated these pipe bombs to you he must have surely told you that if you light the fuse you have to get away fast because it will explode? MR STEYN That is true. MR PRIOR Because if you remain in that area you will blow yourself up so you knew that if you detonate that bomb people can be killed in the process? MR STEYN That is correct yes. MR PRIOR Was that in your mind when you rolled out the bomb to the structure where people where sitting drinking in Maraba town? In Mr du Plessis' application on page 113 he gave evidence or testified in front of this Committee that the people who were grouped together they said: "choose your own pipe bomb", is that correct? MR STEYN That is true yes. MR PRIOR What pipe bomb did you choose, a big one, a small one, a round one, which one? MR STEYN I cannot really comment on that. MR PRIOR Indicate to us how long this pipe bomb was? MR STEYN I would say it was approximately 600cm long. MR PRIOR Was it one of the biggest ones that was lying around there? MR STEYN I cannot comment no, it was in a vehicle's boot. MR PRIOR Is it correct that you did not just follow instructions, you identified yourself with the bomb missions that went out from the game farm in order to create chaos and kill people? MR STEYN That is correct yes. MR PRIOR We don't want to take a long route here now but you went after Myburgh? MR STEYN Yes we did identify ourselves with these bombings. MR PRIOR When Myburgh demonstrated there after that meeting under the tree outside, did he talk about killing people? MR STEYN Yes that is true. MR PRIOR Thank you Mr Chairperson. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRIOR FURTHER RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Mr Steyn, are you aware that Commandant du Plessis took down the names of the different groups that went out? Do you know that? MR STEYN No Mr Chairperson but afterwards I did. I understood it that way yes. MR PRINSLOO No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO ADV BOSMAN Just one question. Why did you give yourself up Mr Steyn, because I understand that the AWB people do not betray each other? MR STEYN Mr Chairperson I could not be running the whole time because while I was on the run every evening when I went to bed and sleep and wherever I was, I was not aware what was going on with my wife and children. ADV BOSMAN In other words it was on behalf of your wife and children that you gave yourself up? MR STEYN Yes. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Steyn. WITNESS IS EXCUSED . CHAIRPERSON It is now approximately the time for us to adjourn. We will adjourn then till nine thirty tomorrow morning, thank you very much. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS