amntrans AMNESTY HEARINGS 1998-07-10 SEBOKENG 4 VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU AM 1707/96 SEBOKENG ATTACK, BOIPATONG ATTACK https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52720&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98070614_sbk_boipato2.htm CHAIRPERSON: Mr Mthembu, may I remind you that you're still under oath. VICTOR MTHANDENI MTHEMBU (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Berger, you may proceed. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BERGER (Continues) Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mthembu, is it correct that you came to the Vaal in 1988? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And that you went to live in the Kwamasiza Hostel, correct? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER You left Kwamasiza and you landed up at Kwamadala, correct? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Is it correct that that was because the residents of Kwamasiza were predominantly Xhosa speaking and they didn't want you there because you were Zulu speaking, is that correct? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And that was the reason for Kwamadala being occupied in the first place by Zulu speaking residents? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And in fact the vast majority of the residents from Kwamadala were ex-residents of Kwamasiza who had been chased out of Kwamasiza by the Xhosa speaking residents? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And Kwamasiza is in Sebokeng, is that correct? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Now, is it also correct that you had two very close friends at Kwamadala? You've already told the Committee about Mr Themba Mabote but you were also very friendly with Mr Sipho Lukhozi. MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Did you share the same room at Kwamadala? MR MTHEMBU No, we did not share a room. MR BERGER What room were you in? MR MTHEMBU I used 300, Room 3008. MR BERGER And Themba Mabote? MR MTHEMBU He used another room but I do not remember the number thereof. MR BERGER And Mr Sipho Lukhozi? MR MTHEMBU He too had his own room. MR BERGER I'm asking for the number of his room. MR MTHEMBU I cannot remember what room number he was in. MR BERGER The night of the attack, can you tell the Committee whether Sipho Lukhozi was present? MR MTHEMBU Yes, he was present. MR BERGER Where did you see him? MR MTHEMBU I saw him as we were going through the main gate to go and attack. MR BERGER Could you give the Committee the names of all the people that you saw that night at one point or another who were part of the attacking group? MR MTHEMBU There were many people there and therefore it is not possible to give the names of each one of them. There were many of them and we did not know one another. MR BERGER Can you give the names of the ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Can you just give us the names of those persons that you can still recall, if you don't recall say so. MR MTHEMBU I am trying to say here that I do not remember the names. I am sure about Sipho Lukhozi who was present that evening. MR BERGER You cannot remember a single other name? MR MTHEMBU No, I do not remember others because I too went there because I was angry knowing that we were going to attack and I therefore did not have time to record down people's names. MR BERGER And in the six years since the attack you haven't been able to recall a single other name? MR MTHEMBU As you have just explained that it is after six years, you too can see that it is difficult, it is after a long time now. MR SIBANYONI Through you Mr Chairperson. Mr Mthembu, you can't even remember whether your fellow co-applicants were one of the people who were in the group during the night of the attack? MR MTHEMBU Some were present but some were not. MR SIBANYONI Who of them in your group do you still remember? MR MTHEMBU As I have explained Sir, I do not remember, it is very difficult for me. I've just indicated that I do not remember. MR SIBANYONI Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER What about your co-accused at the trial? You can't remember whether anyone of them was present at the attack? MR MTHEMBU As I have explained that I had, I was with Khanyile and Msane, those are the two names that I can still recall. MR BERGER Well according to you yesterday, you could recall Buthelezi's name. MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR LAX Just one second Mr Berger. Sorry Mr Mthembu, just so that we can be clear here. The question wasn't who was with you on that night, the question was who do you remember seeing on that night, okay? MR MTHEMBU Now I do understand. I am trying to explain that I do not remember. The gentleman should understand that. MR BERGER Isn't it just that you don't want to tell, you do remember but you don't want to tell? MR MTHEMBU I wouldn't say I don't want to talk about something that I have to say here before this Committee. I am just saying that I do not remember. I think you understand that it's been a long time since this thing happened. MR BERGER Mr Sipho Lukhozi has made an affidavit in which he says that he was not present during the attack. I will read it to you, it's paragraph 2 of his affidavit "In this moment or at this moment I don't like to go and sit in front of the TRC hearing because I was sentenced for this case of Boipatong Massacre when I was not present. I was not even around the area of Boipatong" Is that false according to you? MR MTHEMBU As far as I know Sipho was present. It may as well be that he is saying this because he was sentenced. If he was not present, why then was he sentenced? CHAIRPERSON You just testified that you saw him at the gate as you were leaving the hostel, is that right? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you see him in Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU No, I do not recall seeing him at Boipatong. MR BERGER What was he doing at the gate when you saw him? MR MTHEMBU He was standing there as one of those people who were going to accompany us. MR BERGER He was armed and part of the attacking group? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Chairperson, I'd just like to point out that if one has a look at the amnesty application of Mr Themba Lukhozi, I beg your pardon, Mr Sipho Lukhozi, he says there at page 145 "The night of the 17th of June 1992 we went to the Boipatong residential armed with kierries, assegais, spears, firearms and other weapons" ...[no Afrikaans translation - transcriber's own translation] And he sets out that in fact he was there and that he was part of the attack but ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Does it say in his affidavit that he has just filed, doesn't he mention something about being forced of some kind to make the application? MR BERGER No, he ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON "furthermore I didn't make any application for amnesty. Advocate Strydom and other one came to me about myself to make application" he refused. MR BERGER Indeed. CHAIRPERSON So if that is the case, what value does one place either on that statement that you've just read or on the affidavit itself? MR BERGER I just wanted to point out to the Committee that there seems to be something funny going on, and the reason I say that Chairperson, is because if you look at the bottom of page 146 and you see there who signed as the deponent and you compare that signature with the signature of Thomas Lukhozi on the affidavit, it's a completely different signature. CHAIRPERSON Precisely the point, that's the point I'm trying to make to you and that is, in this affidavit the man says: "I was approached to make an application for amnesty but I refused". If one accepts that then it's simple ...[indistinct] to question the application that occurs at 144. In fact it is our - in view of this affidavit by Mr Lukhozi, we propose I think to do no more than just to strike this application off the role with the direction that perhaps the TRC should go back to Mr Lukhozi and advise him of his rights concerning an application for amnesty and the consequences of the withdrawal of this application in view of the fact that it may well be after the cut-off date. That is what we propose doing. We are not disposed at this stage simply to withdraw his application on the basis, we believe that his rights ought to be explained to him before any further steps can be taken. Suffice it to say that in view of this affidavit, the signatures that appear on this document and the one there, there may well be something in what he says in this affidavit. MR BERGER About not making an application? CHAIRPERSON Yes, but that is not what we have to decide. MR BERGER Indeed Chairperson, but the point I'm making is that this application of Mr Lukhozi starting at page 144, was submitted as part of a group of applications and I'm suggesting that there is something funny with this application and this application wasn't submitted on its own, it was submitted as a group and there might be something in that. I won't take it any further at this stage. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, may I come in at this stage? Firstly I want to make the point that I can't see what this issue has to do with the cross-examination of the witness on the witness stand at this moment. Secondly I want to place it on record that I went to Medium B Prison, Diepkloof and I obtained this statement which appears on page 144 to 146 from Mr Lukhozi and interpreter accompanied me, he signed that statement in my presence, that is his signature and if needs be I will call the interpreter and lead evidence on this aspect. I furthermore state that his second affidavit, the one that was handed in yesterday does not reflect the true situation and I will give evidence to that effect if needs be. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger? MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, the reason that I'm asking you about this is because in one application Mr Lukhozi says he was part of the attack, in another statement he says he wasn't part of the attack and I'm asking you whether he was and you say: "Yes, he was part of the attack", is that correct? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER I want to now refer you, well tell you about a document and ask you for your response. This is a memorandum ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, just before you proceed, to the extent that the affidavit by Mr Lukhozi has now been referred to, perhaps it is appropriate to enter it on the record and this would be the first of those, wouldn't it? Shall we make it Exhibit A, I think it is. MR BERGER Yes, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Very well, the handwritten statement which is undated, made by Thomas Sipho Lukhozi, which at the second page indicates that it was taken by one, S M Madiba, will be handed in as Exhibit A and in view of the contents of that statement it appears appropriate at this stage to have the application by Thomas Lukhozi, which is AM7396/97 being struck off the role. We would recommend that the TRC should endeavour to get in touch with Mr Lukhozi and indicate the implications of the withdrawal of his application if that is what he intends to do. It appears from his statement that he has given to, he has given a name of an Advocate A S Burger and his cellular phone number, perhaps the TRC could also get in touch with the lawyer reflected in that statement. Mr Strydom, is there anything you want to add to that? MR STRYDOM I've got nothing to add. CHAIRPERSON You do confirm that you're not acting for him? MR STRYDOM I'm not acting for him. CHAIRPERSON Yes, indeed. MR STRYDOM Maybe I can just place on record what happened here. After he signed that first statement, the application, there was a request for further particulars and a request to submit an affidavit. He was again visited in jail and at that stage he did not want to speak to us any further and he said his advocate is Advocate Burger and that's the reason why at the beginning of this hearing we withdraw as his representatives. CHAIRPERSON Is there anything you wanted to place on record in this regard? MR BERGER Chairperson, the application has been struck off the role but I take it that the documents themselves are still capable of being referred to? CHAIRPERSON Well, for whatever relevance ...[intervention] MR BERGER For whatever they're worth. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BERGER Chairperson, just also for record purposes, I'm not the Advocate Berger that is referred to in that statement. CHAIRPERSON We accept that. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, ...[intervention] MR STRYDOM Sorry to interrupt again, sorry. There was reference to the signature that differs in his statement. I've got another statement which the same Thomas Lukhozi has signed and this statement was to withdraw his bail because he was serving a sentence in any event on another charge and if there's going to be a reference to his signature, I would like to hand up this document just to show the signature on this document as well. I would beg leave to hand up this document. CHAIRPERSON Do we have enough copies of this document? MR STRYDOM Unfortunately I haven't got copies at this stage. CHAIRPERSON That's okay. ...[indistinct] on record, this signature which appears here differs from the one that is on the handwritten statement and it also differs from the one - well does it, I'm no handwriting expert but it does seem to me that it's similar to the one that is on page 146 of the application paper. Would you like to have a look at this Mr Brink? Would you also show it to Mr Berger? MR PRIOR Mr Chairman, likewise I don't pretend to be a handwriting expert but the signatures on this document and that which appears at page 146 appears to be the same. CHAIRPERSON Will you show that to Mr Berger? MR BERGER I'm also no handwriting expert but it could be, I don't know. CHAIRPERSON Very well, the sworn statement by Thomas Mkeshleni Lukhozi deposed to on the 5th of February 1998 will be handed in as Exhibit B. Yes, very well. Thank you Mr Berger, will you proceed? MR BERGER Thank you Chairman. Mr Mthembu, I want to read to you from a document which was compiled by the police and I want to ask you to comment if you can on the allegations made in this document. It says: "On the 15th of March 1992, an attack took place at Chiefs Place Tavern in Sharpeville. Two woman were killed and several injured" Do you know anything about that attack? MR MTHEMBU No, Sir, I know nothing about that. MR BERGER One of the perpetrators of the attack was injured by one of his colleagues by accident. He has stated on affidavit as follows. Now, this is his affidavit "I am able to live a the Kwamadala Hostel without charge. I am unemployed, as are several of the other residents of the hostel. We are supported by those residents who are employed" I assume you can confirm that as applying to the people who came from Umsinga, is that correct? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct Sir. MR BERGER He goes on to say "In addition we received food parcels from the International Red Cross every two weeks" MR MTHEMBU Yes, I have knowledge about that. MR BERGER "We also robbed people in town. We as a group approached individuals and threatened them so that they gave us money" MR MTHEMBU No comment. MR BERGER Does that mean you have no knowledge or you don't want to comment? CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, does that relate to the Boipatong Massacre? MR BERGER Indeed it does. CHAIRPERSON Yes, please let's get to the point at some point. MR BERGER Chairperson, if I could just tell you that this document came out of the docket. It has a covering sheet, the subject is "Moord: Boipatong 92.06.17" And it says and I'm translating: "Attached is a statement from a nameless person which has been obtained in a very sensitive way" Second paragraph: "The content of the statement was for me however of great value in the investigation. Please hand this over to Lieutenant Colonel Eager and explain the situation to him" And then it speaks about one of the people mentioned in the statement. Now this statement is particularly relevant to the Boipatong attack, I would submit. I've tried to get to the point as quickly as possible by, instead of asking a whole lot of questions, to say to the witness: "Can you confirm this", and to take him through the statement. I can't think of a quicker way of doing it, thank you. I will try and summarise large chunks and then you can tell me whether you agree or don't agree Mr Mthembu. I will leave out the non-important parts. He says: "All the residents of the Kwamadala Hostel are members of the Inkatha Freedom Party. Amongst the residents there are individuals whom are leaders of the Inkatha Freedom Party" Correct? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR BERGER "Amongst them is one, Buthelezi" One of the leaders, yes? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR BERGER He then says "A system exists at the Kwamadala Hostel whereby each resident becomes part of a unit" Is that correct? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR BERGER "I was placed in a unit consisting of four members" Mr Mthembu, how many members were in your unit? MR MTHEMBU There were three. MR BERGER And who were the people in your unit? MR MTHEMBU Mr Thembelani Buthelezi, myself and Ntwzee, the secretary. MR BERGER Do you know people in any of the other units? MR MTHEMBU There were some although I cannot specify their names but there were people in other units. MR BERGER And what were these units called, what was the name given to these units? MR MTHEMBU They were the Indunas in the hostel. MR BERGER Were you an Induna? MR MTHEMBU No. MR BERGER I don't understand, but let me continue. He says "I was trained in the use of weapons by Buthelezi" MR MTHEMBU I don't know anything about that, I don't even know who you are talking about. MR BERGER Well he goes on to say "Every resident is trained in the use of weapons" MR MTHEMBU I don't have knowledge of that. MR BERGER Well you were trained in the use of weapons were you not? MR MTHEMBU No. MR BERGER How was it possible for you to successfully apply for three firearms if you had no training in weapons? MR MTHEMBU I think that is a mistake, there were two guns not three. I went to the Vereeniging shooting range and that's where I practised shooting. MR BERGER Chairperson, I don't have copies available for the Committee at this stage but I have a document which is also taken from the docket, which is an extract from Mr Mthembu's identity document and in there there is space for firearm licences. There are three firearm licences reflected there. I will make copies of that document and hand it in to the Committee. Two of those guns I can tell you Mr Mthembu, were applied for and granted at the beginning of 1992 and the third gun was applied for and granted at the beginning of June 1992. MR MTHEMBU Sir, I admit that I applied for licences for my guns but what I do not agree with is the amount, the number of guns. I explained even yesterday that I have only two guns. MR BERGER Did you or did you not successfully apply for a licence at the beginning of June 1992? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON Let's assume this man had 20 firearms, how is that relevant to the question of whether or not he went to Boipatong and was part of the attack and indeed he took part in the attack? I think the point has been made. I gather that you're going to give us some documentation to support what you're saying, and that is that he had three firearms issued to him and he says on the one hand that he only had two. He's given us an explanation yesterday as to how that occurred. Can you take the matter any further, because I think all that you need to do is just to provide us with the documents which indicate that. MR BERGER As you please Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, because I don't think we'll take the matter any further now, you've made the point. MR BERGER The question I want to ask you Mr Mthembu is, why were you applying for so many weapons and why were you making application in June of 1992 for another weapon? MR MTHEMBU Sir, the reason for applying for these licences was for self-protection where I resided and also in the streets. MR BERGER And for that you needed more than one gun? MR MTHEMBU I applied for two because I needed them. MR BERGER Let me continue with this affidavit. "I am aware that other members of other units who were also trained in the use of weapons" MR MTHEMBU I don't have any comment on that. MR BERGER "I have seen many arms and ammunition stored in the Kwamadala Hostel" MR MTHEMBU I don't have any knowledge of that. MR BERGER Well let me refer you to page 6 of your amnesty application, page 6 of the bundle, paragraph 7. You say there "Vanana Zulu was in control of the weapons at Kwamadala Hostel. The weapons that I can recall were AK47's. There were more or less 20 and hand weapons. There were more or less 8 to 10 that I saw. These weapons were brought to the Kwamadala Hostel by Xoltlo from Vosloorus" MR MTHEMBU That so correct. MR BERGER Do you confirm that? MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR BERGER Well then why do you dispute the sentence which I just read out to you "I have seen many arms and ammunition stored at the Kwamadala Hostel" MR MTHEMBU I don't understand where you get that from or where it comes from. CHAIRPERSON The difficulty that you have there Mr Berger is this, you're reading a document in which the person who made that statement claims that he saw these firearms. Now when the witness says: "I can't comment, I don't know about that", he may well be saying: "I don't know whether there person saw those weapons". Do you see the difficulty? MR BERGER Perhaps my question was too loose. CHAIRPERSON Yes, indeed, indeed. MR BERGER You do know about arms and ammunition stored at the Kwamadala Hostel do you not? MR MTHEMBU Yes, Sir, I do. MR BERGER For how long had those arms been stored at Kwamadala? Since you arrived were there arms or was it only after you arrived? MR MTHEMBU I would not know about that because when I arrived there were already residents at Kwamadala Hostel and I did not know whether they were already stored there or not. MR BERGER When did you become aware of the fact that arms were being stored at Kwamadala Hostel? MR MTHEMBU I first knew because I saw them when we went to attack Boipatong. MR BERGER Was that the first time that you became aware that weapons were being stored at Kwamadala Hostel, the night of the attack on Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct Sir. MR BERGER Before that night, before the 17th of June 1992, you were not aware of any arms that were being stored at Kwamadala Hostel? MR MTHEMBU No, Sir. MR BERGER Let me read to you what you say in paragraph 8, page 6 "These weapons were kept by Vanana Zulu and he hid them away. I saw these weapons when they were handed to us by Vanana Zulu one by one" Are you saying that that is on the night of the attack? MR MTHEMBU No, I am trying to explain here that I saw the weapons on the night or on the evening that we were supposed to attack Boipatong. MR BERGER Yes, but when you say in your affidavit "These weapons were kept by Vanana Zulu and he hid them away" MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR BERGER When are you referring to, when did he hide them away? MR MTHEMBU I am speaking of the period of when the weapons arrived at Kwamadala Hostel. MR BERGER And when was that period? MR MTHEMBU Prior to the attack on Boipatong. MR BERGER So prior to the attack on Boipatong you were aware that weapons were being hidden in the hostel? MR MTHEMBU Although I cannot explain it but I think there were because we were then supposed to attack. CHAIRPERSON Are you saying that because these firearms were handed out to you on the night of the attack, you assume that they must have always been there? END OF TAPE - POSSIBLE WORDS LOST MR MTHEMBU ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Is there a person called Damarra Chonco. MR MTHEMBU Damarra Chonco, yes. CHAIRPERSON Well in paragraph 6 of your affidavit you referred to a person by the name of Damarra Chonco. MR MTHEMBU Yes. CHAIRPERSON What is his surname, is it Gonku or Chonco? MR MTHEMBU It's Chonco. CHAIRPERSON So there's a mistake here? MR MTHEMBU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Alright. Vanana Zulu, is it Vanana Zulu or is it Fanana Zulu? MR MTHEMBU Vanana. CHAIRPERSON Vanana: V-A? MR MTHEMBU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Okay, very well. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, is it your evidence that nobody informed you prior to the attack on Boipatong that weapons were being purchased from the money that had been collected from you and other residents and that those weapons were being brought to Kwamadala? Nobody informed you and you never became aware of that? MR MTHEMBU Nobody informed me about that. MR BERGER And you never became aware of that from anybody? MR MTHEMBU What I can explain is that I once saw Mr Chonco arriving in a car having these weapons. MR BERGER And that was many days before the attack on Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU It was shortly before the attack on Boipatong. MR BERGER Why then do you say that you assumed that weapons were kept at the hostel before the attack on Boipatong when in fact you knew that weapons had been brought to the hostel before the attack on Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU As I have already explained Sir, that I cannot be aware of everything that happens in that hostel because I had other things to do. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, isn't it correct that money was collected before the attack, well before the attack on Boipatong? Money was collected from hostel residents at Kwamadala to buy guns? MR MTHEMBU That happened. When I arrived there it was already happening at the hostel but I had no knowledge of what the money was being used for. MR BERGER Isn't it correct that at previous meetings before the attack on Boipatong, you were told that the money which had been collected from you, you being all the residents, had been used to purchase guns, weapons? MR MTHEMBU It is possible but I may not have been present at that meeting. MR BERGER I'm asking whether you were told at those meetings that the money you collected was being used to buy guns? MR MTHEMBU As I have already mentioned, I may not have been at that meeting when they were told. MR BERGER Let me read to you what you've said. The question was put to you, page 20, paragraph 24 "You allege that Damarra Chonco brought weapons from Vosloorus to Kwamadala"? Your answer at page 32, paragraph 24: "Yes" 24.1 "How do you know he brought weapons from Vosloorus"? Answer, page 32, paragraph 24.1: "They told us at previous meetings that Mr Chonco went to buy weapons with our money that they collected from us. He used his car and went to Vosloorus and we were supposed to pay him some more money for using his car" How can you now say that you were not at those meetings and you can't say what was said? MR MTHEMBU I say that because I know that, I may not have been present at the meetings and I may have heard about this from other people or from Mr Chonco himself after those meetings were held. MR BERGER Let me refer you to page 6, paragraph 8 "I also saw many weapons during the police operation at the hostel. When they were attacked the South African Police came to search the hostel and found a lot of firearms which they confiscated. No weapons were left, which resulted in Vanana Zulu telling us that everybody had to contribute so that more weapons could be bought. We had to pay R800 per person who were working at the time, for these weapons" Were you not at that meeting either? MR MTHEMBU I think I was present at that meeting because it is explained here, I was present at the meeting. MR BERGER And then after - and aren't those the previous meetings that you're referring to at page 32, paragraph 24.1? MS PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, may I just mention one thing, that this statement on page 6 and paragraph 8 is in regard to the Sebokeng attacks and those Sebokeng attacks occurred after the Boipatong attack. I think that is why it reads "When they were attacked the South African Police came to search the hostel and found a lot of firearms which they confiscated" This refers to the Sebokeng attack and not to the Boipatong attack. The Boipatong attack only starts on page 8. MR BERGER Chairperson, with respect, if my learned friend could allow the witness to answer those questions it would be far more useful. He now has a perfect avenue for escape. CHAIRPERSON The perfect avenue for - the issue is whether the question is permissable in the first place. What is the basis of your objection? MS PRETORIUS My objection is that it is clear from this statement that this first part was the affidavit that was annexed to the application for the Sebokeng matter, so this happened after the Boipatong massacre. It must just be clear to the Committee, in my mind, that this has no bearing on what happened before the Boipatong attack. This happened after the Boipatong attack. MR BERGER It's not clear from the statement at all Chairperson, that that is the position. MS PRETORIUS That is as far as I can take it Chairperson because as I say, this statement was initially attached to the Sebokeng matter. CHAIRPERSON Well, where does it indicate that it relates to the Sebokeng attack? MS PRETORIUS Unfortunately it does not because, it does not say that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS PRETORIUS But on page 8 there is a heading that says "The Boipatong Massacre" and then it deals with the Boipatong Massacre. CHAIRPERSON Yes, at page 8 it deals with it. MS PRETORIUS And in paragraph 8 on page 6 it says "When they were attacked the South African Police came to search the hostel and found a lot of firearms which they confiscated" CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS PRETORIUS There he speaks about the attack. CHAIRPERSON Yes. Well unless you can indicate precisely what is the basis for the objection, I'm disposed to allow the question because it does seem to me that the statement itself does not purport to restrict itself to Sebokeng but on the contrary it appears to refer broadly to the situation which obtained in Boipatong. MS PRETORIUS As the Chairperson pleases. CHAIRPERSON But I think you are perfectly entitled to re-examine the witness on the issues so as to clarify the matter that may well have been obscured by the vagueness of the statement, do you understand that? MS PRETORIUS I do, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. Do you still remember the question? Mr Berger, do you want to put the question again? MR BERGER I'll put the question Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, page 6, paragraph 8 of your affidavit, you talk there about Mr Vanana Zulu telling after the police had confiscated guns from the hostel that money is required to purchase weapons and that you had to contribute R800 per person for those weapons. MR MTHEMBU As I've explained before, as it has been explained, this statement relates to the Sebokeng attack. CHAIRPERSON Let me ask you this, prior to the attack on Boipatong, were you aware that there were weapons in Kwamadala Hostel? MR MTHEMBU No, I did not have knowledge of that. CHAIRPERSON Were you aware, prior to the attack on Boipatong, that certain monies were being collected and that the purpose of collecting those monies was to buy weapons? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I had knowledge of that. CHAIRPERSON Do you know whether these weapons were indeed purchased with that money? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I'm certain that they were bought. CHAIRPERSON And this was well before the attack on Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Does that help you Mr Berger? MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson, it does. Now Mr Mthembu, what I want to ask you is, and I'm talking about the period before the attack on Boipatong so we get no mistake about that, right, is it your evidence that Vanana Zulu was the person who was in control of the purchasing of weapons for Kwamadala Hostel? MR MTHEMBU That is not correct Sir. MR BERGER Who was the person in control of purchasing weapons for Kwamadala Hostel before the Boipatong attack? MR MTHEMBU Mr Chonco. MR BERGER Before the Boipatong attack, who was in control of the weapons at the Kwamadala Hostel? MR MTHEMBU Mr Vanana Zulu. MR BERGER So Mr Vanana Zulu would call meetings, this is before the Boipatong attack, he would call meetings, he would say to the residents: "We need money to buy guns", those residents who were working would contribute, Vanana Zulu would then collect the money and give it to Mr Chonco, Mr Chonco would then go and purchase the guns and bring to the Kwamadala Hostel, is that the way it worked? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And as far as you knew, Mr Chonco purchased those guns or got those guns from Vosloorus Hostel? MR MTHEMBU Yes, Sir. MR BERGER That is what you heard but you don't know precisely where the guns came from, is that correct? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Where is Mr Vanana Zulu today? MR MTHEMBU I do not know where he is. MR BERGER He is alive is he not? MR MTHEMBU Yes, he's still alive. MR BERGER Who would know where he is today? MR MTHEMBU I would not have knowledge of that because I am in custody. MR BERGER The last time that you saw Mr Vanana Zulu, where was he? MR MTHEMBU I saw him for the last time on the other side down there. MR BERGER Where is there on the other side, I don't understand you? MR MTHEMBU I'm talking about on the basement, that's where we meet when we arrive here. CHAIRPERSON Was that this week? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Oh, he was here at the hearings? CHAIRPERSON He saw him outside. MR MTHEMBU I saw him outside not inside. MR BERGER And when was that that you saw him? MR MTHEMBU On Tuesday. MR BERGER Can you see if he's in the audience today? MR MTHEMBU No, I don't see him. MR BERGER At the time of the Boipatong attack, would it be correct to say that Mr Vanana Zulu was the most senior member of the IFP at Kwamadala Hostel? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And is it also correct that he was not permanently resident in the Kwamadala Hostel at that time? MR MTHEMBU I knew him to be a fulltime resident of the hostel. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, when you are moving on to the point, will you indicate as there's one thing that I just want to clarify in regard to the purchase of the arms. MR BERGER Yes, Chairperson. What work was Mr Vanana Zulu doing at that time, besides organising attacks? What was he employed to do? MR MTHEMBU He was working for Iscor. MR BERGER He was not one of your co-accused, is that correct? MR MTHEMBU No. MR BERGER Do you know whether he is still working for Iscor? MR MTHEMBU No, I don't know whether he is still working there or not. MR BERGER Is it correct that from time to time before the Boipatong attack, Vanana Zulu would leave the hostel, go away for a couple of days and then return to the hostel? MR MTHEMBU I have no knowledge about that. MR BERGER Chairperson, I'm going to come back now to this affidavit, so perhaps this would be an appropriate point. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Prior to the attack on Boipatong, had the police conducted any raids into the hostel? MR MTHEMBU The police used to come often to conduct raids in the hostel. CHAIRPERSON During those raids, would the police confiscate firearms found in the hostel? MR MTHEMBU Some of these things happened when I was at work and I would get the report back from work and I would be informed as to what they took and what they did not confiscate. CHAIRPERSON Were you ever told? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that's correct. CHAIRPERSON What? MR MTHEMBU I was told that the police raided the hostel. CHAIRPERSON But were you ever told that they had confiscated firearms? MR MTHEMBU I would not know. The person who was telling me would actually just tell me and he would not give me all the necessary details. CHAIRPERSON Okay. You did witness did you not, some of the operations when the police would come to the hostel and confiscate firearms? Well that's what you said in your affidavit, you say so. MR MTHEMBU Sir, sometimes the police would come at different times. CHAIRPERSON I understand that, but all I want to find out is, you say in paragraph 8 that "I saw many weapons during the police operations at the hostel. When they were attacked the South African Police came to search the hostel and found a lot of firearms which they confiscated" That's what I'm asking about, that's what you say, that's true, right? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now did this occur prior to the Boipatong attack? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Okay. So once the police had come there to confiscate the firearms there were no firearms in the hostel? MR MTHEMBU I would not have knowledge about that, as to whether they confiscated all the firearms or not. CHAIRPERSON If you know, if you don't know say so. The confiscation of the weapons by the police, did it trigger the need to collect money so as to buy more weapons for the residents at the hostel? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct Sir. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. Following on from that Mr Mthembu, and let me just put you in the picture, this is now before the attack on Boipatong, after the police have confiscated weapons from the hostel and there is now a need to collect money to get more weapons right? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct Sir. MR BERGER It's at that point that there is a meeting and Mr Vanana Zulu then called upon the residents, including you, to contribute R800 if you are working so that guns can be purchased, right? MR MTHEMBU That's correct. MR BERGER And you had no choice, you had to pay because otherwise you feared that you could have been killed by one of the members of the Umsinga contingent? MR MTHEMBU That is correct Sir, I also contributed. MR BERGER So this group of men form Umsinga, they were brought to the hostel and they were there to make sure that all the hostel residents were kept in check and did as they were told, am I right? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that's correct Sir. MR BERGER Now the money that was collected, was that given to Mr Vanana Zulu? MR MTHEMBU It was given to Mr Chonco. MR BERGER Was Mr Chonco part of this unit from Umsinga? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct Sir. MR BERGER You moved to the Kwamadala Hostel in 1990, is that correct? MR MTHEMBU That is correct Sir. MR BERGER You were also arrested by the police in 1990, were you not? MR MTHEMBU In 1990? MR BERGER Yes. MR MTHEMBU No, I don't remember. MR BERGER When was the first time that you were arrested by the police Mr Mthembu? CHAIRPERSON In connection with what? MR BERGER At all Chairperson. MR MTHEMBU This question I can explain. Here you're talking about my being arrested for the first time. I've been arrested several times and I cannot remember exactly when. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, let me go back to this affidavit. I'm sorry, it's just been pointed out to me. Mr Sibusiso Chonco, is he the same Mr Chonco that you referred to who was head of the Umsinga contingent? MR MTHEMBU The one that I am talking about is Damarra, I don't know about Sibusiso. MR BERGER You see, because I have a note here that you and a number of people including Mr Sibusiso Chonco were arrested by the police in 1990, that's why I asked you about that arrest but you say that you can't remember? MR MTHEMBU As I have explained Sir, that I do not remember because you are talking about 1990. If you calculate from 1990 up to now, really I don't know how many years. I do not record things as they happen. CHAIRPERSON All that you're being asked about now is Sibusiso Chonco. Is Sibusiso Chonco the same person as Damarra Chonco, to your knowledge? MR MTHEMBU As far as I know I did explain Sir, I indicated the I know Damarra Chonco, not Sibusiso. Maybe he is a different person. CHAIRPERSON There is a document in front of him which indicates that in 1990 you were arrested together with the person names Sibusiso Chonco. You don't recall that incident? MR MTHEMBU No, I don't recall that. MR BERGER Did it happen that from 1990 onwards, as you've said the police used to raid Kwamadala Hostel at various intervals, did it happen during one of those raids that you were arrested? MR MTHEMBU What I still remember is that I was arrested at night in 1993 when the police came. MR BERGER: Alright, let me go back to this affidavit. "After the sentence I have seen many arms and ammunition stored at the Kwamadala Hostel" is the sentence. "Meetings were held every Tuesday and Thursday" Is that correct Mr Mthembu? MR MTHEMBU On what page is that Sir? MR BERGER You won't find that in the page before you, I'm reading from another affidavit. I'm asking you, is it correct that every Tuesday and every Thursday meetings were held at the Kwamadala Hostel? MR MTHEMBU We used to hold youth meetings on those days. MR BERGER Every Tuesday and every Thursday? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER It goes on "At these meetings we were informed when new weapons had arrived" MR MTHEMBU I do not have knowledge about that. MR BERGER Yesterday you told the Committee that you only had meetings three times a month. MR MTHEMBU I was giving you an example that we might perhaps hold meetings three times a month. On Tuesdays and Wednesdays we sometimes never had an opportunity or for some reason not hold the meeting when we were supposed to. MR BERGER I just asked you whether meetings were held every Tuesday and every Thursday and you said yes. MR MTHEMBU Yes, I did admit. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, why is it that you are so reluctant to impart information all the time? If you had meetings every Tuesday and every Thursday, why yesterday did you tell the Committee that you met three times a month? MR MTHEMBU You must also understand that you are asking me about something that happened some years ago. MR BERGER And why also yesterday did you say that your meetings were just the three of you, you, the chairperson and the secretary when now it seems that they were youth meetings every Tuesday and every Thursday? MR MTHEMBU Now you are asking me something which I really cannot answer, you are asking me about something that had already happened. CHAIRPERSON Well yesterday you mentioned that there were the three of you, I think Mr Buthelezi, yourself and Ntzwee was the other person. Did the three of you meet separately from the rest of the members of the youth? MR MTHEMBU We used to meet with the other youth members, we did not hold our own separate meeting. CHAIRPERSON So every time the three of you meet you also meet together with representatives of the youth? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON So the three meetings that you estimated you had a month, you were referring to those meetings? MR MTHEMBU Yes, Sir, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now these meetings that you've just referred to now which were held every Tuesday and Thursday, who met at those meetings? MR MTHEMBU The whole youth would meet because they knew that we would hold meetings on Tuesdays and on Thursdays. MR BERGER My question Mr Mthembu is why did you not mention any of this yesterday? MR MTHEMBU I would not answer to something that has not been asked. MR BERGER I'll leave that answer. CHAIRPERSON Would this perhaps be an appropriate time to take the tea adjournment? MR BERGER It would, thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well, we will take the tea adjournment now and we will return at eleven thirty. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION CHAIRPERSON Mr Mthembu, may I remind you that you're still under oath. VICTOR MTHEMBU (s.u.o.) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Berger? MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mthembu, is it not correct that Sibusiso Chonco and Damarra Chonco are the same person, one and the same person? MR MTHEMBU What I can say is I do not know whether it is the same person because I have just spoken of Damarra Chonco. CHAIRPERSON I think what counsel is asking you is whether, is it not a fact that Damarra Chonco and Sibusiso Chonco is one and the same person. MR MTHEMBU I do not know this name Sibusiso Chonco. MR BERGER You knew Damarra Chonco from 1990 until 1993, is that correct? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR BERGER And the two of you were in the same unit, is that correct? MR MTHEMBU Do you mean the youth? MR BERGER Yes. MR MTHEMBU He was not in the youth. MR BERGER And in the unit that you spoke about earlier? Do you remember you agreed with me that all residents were split up into units, was he in that unit? CHAIRPERSON That is now in the unit in which he belonged? MR BERGER Yes. CHAIRPERSON His unit as I understand, consisted of himself, Buthelezi and Ntzwee. MR BERGER Oh, it's my mistake, I apologise for that Mr Mthembu. CHAIRPERSON As I under Chonco, Chonco was the leader of the Umsinga contingent. MR BERGER Is that correct Mr Mthembu? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER And it was in that capacity as leader of this Umsinga contingent that you knew him from 1990? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Do you know of a person called Darkie Chonco? MR MTHEMBU Yes, Sir. MR BERGER Who is he? MR MTHEMBU He is Damarra Chonco's youngest brother. MR BERGER I want to turn back to Mr Vanana Zulu. Do you see him today? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I do. MR BERGER Is he sitting in this hall? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Is he sitting there in the front row on the ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON If you want the witness to identify Mr Zulu, why don't you just ask the witness to do so. If he's here he must be somewhere around here. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, could you point out Mr Vanana Zulu? MR MTHEMBU There he is. CHAIRPERSON If there is a Mr Vanana Zulu inside the hall, would you please stand up? VANANA ZULU STANDS UP CHAIRPERSON Thank you Sir. MR BERGER And the person who has just stood up now, Mr Vanana Zulu, he was sitting in that same seat just before the adjournment, is that not correct? MR MTHEMBU I did not see him before the break. MR BERGER At the break he came up to speak to you, correct? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I was with him outside. MR BERGER And what did he tell you? MR MTHEMBU He greeted me. MR BERGER What else did he tell you? MR MTHEMBU He did not say anything else. MR BERGER How long did you spend with him outside? MR MTHEMBU It was not for long, I was with my co-accused at the time. MR BERGER And all he did was greet you and say nothing more? MR MTHEMBU Yes, he just greeted me. MR BERGER I saw Mr Vanana Zulu having a long conversation at the foot of the stage, are you aware of that? MR MTHEMBU At the stairs? MR BERGER Yes, just after the adjournment, Mr Vanana Zulu came up to where you and all the applicants were sitting and had a conversation. MR MTHEMBU Maybe you saw somebody else. MR BERGER Are you saying that you have had no conversation with Mr Vanana Zulu today? CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, he has just told us that during the tea adjournment he spoke to Mr Zulu, you can put that question. If you want to find out whether there was a discussion with Mr Zulu inside the hall, that's probably the way you should put it unless you want to make a distinction between just greeting and a conversation. MR BERGER Well that was my understanding. CHAIRPERSON Okay, very well. Do you understand the question? MR MTHEMBU I understand the question that Mr Berger is asking but he is not satisfied with my response and I do not know how to respond to his question so that he is satisfied. MR BERGER Then I'll be more specific. Other than Mr Vanana Zulu greeting you, you have not had any other conversation with Mr Vanana Zulu today? MR MTHEMBU Because of the short time that we have and because I had to speak to the other people as well, I did not speak to him for long. The mere fact that he greeted me means something to me. MR BERGER Besides the greeting, what else did Mr Vanana Zulu say to you either inside the hall or outside the hall? MR MTHEMBU There is nothing that he said to me. I did not see him in the hall but he spoke to me at the basement. MR MALINDI Mr Chairman, may I pose just one question? Mr Mthembu, you also said on Tuesday when you arrived you saw him in the basement, did he speak to you on Tuesday? MR MTHEMBU Yes, he did speak to me. MR MALINDI Did you have a lengthy discussion? MR MTHEMBU We did not speak for long because there are some of my co-accused whom I haven't seen for a long time, therefore I have to speak to each and everyone of them and I cannot concentrate on one person. MR MALINDI Thank you Mr Chairperson. MR BERGER Thank you. Let me go back to this affidavit. I'm sorry there is something else I have to put to you about Mr Vanana Zulu. You said that Mr Vanana Zulu was not part of the attack on Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU Yes, Sir. MR BERGER How do you know that? MR MTHEMBU I know because he was not there, he had gone home. MR BERGER How do you know that? Did he tell you that before he left: "I'm going home"? MR MTHEMBU He did not tell me but I saw him when he left in the car. MR BERGER When did he leave the hostel? MR MTHEMBU Although I cannot specify the time, but it was on a Wednesday afternoon. MR BERGER On Wednesday the 17th of June 1992? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is so. MR BERGER So you're saying he left the hostel a few hours before the attack started? MR MTHEMBU As I've just explained he left in the afternoon. MR BERGER And where did he go? You say to his family, my question is: "Where"? CHAIRPERSON Just before you opt, when you want to move onto the next point would you just indicate as there's a matte that I just want to raise, thank you. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, I asked you a question. MR MTHEMBU He went home. MR BERGER My question is, where was his home? MR MTHEMBU That's Nongoma in KwaZulu Natal. MR BERGER Did he tell you: "I'm going home to Nongoma"? MR MTHEMBU He did not tell me that he was going to Nongoma, but what I know is that if a person uses these taxis to Nongoma, he must be going home. MR BERGER But you never saw him using a taxi did you, you saw him leaving in his car? MR MTHEMBU These taxis to Nongoma park outside the hostel so when he got into one I knew that he must be going home. MR BERGER No, you told the Committee that he got into his car and left the hostel that Wednesday afternoon. MR MTHEMBU I do not understand what you mean. I meant that he got into the taxi, the car that I was talking about. MR BERGER Why did you then tell the Committee that he got into his car and drove away from the hostel? MR MTHEMBU I did not say that he got into his car, I am only hearing it from you that he has his own car. MR BERGER Isn't it correct that Mr Vanana Zulu has family in Boipatong or had family in Boipatong at that time? MR MTHEMBU At what time? MR BERGER June 1992. MR MTHEMBU I don't know about that. MR BERGER Isn't it correct that Mr Vanana Zulu was involved in the attack on Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU I have no comment on that. MR BERGER I can tell you that there is a witness who can say that he was in Boipatong that night, in fact he went into a house which was occupied by one of his co-workers at Iscor and the owner of the house said: "Why are you coming to kill me", and Vanana Zulu left that house. You are absolutely certain that Vanana Zulu wasn't in Boipatong that night? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I am certain. MR BERGER He wasn't at the stadium and he wasn't part of the attacking group, of that you are certain? MR MTHEMBU No, I did not see him. MR BERGER Who then was in control of the guns at Kwamadala Hostel when Vanana Zulu wasn't there? MR MTHEMBU I would not know who was responsible for that Sir. MR BERGER Chairperson, perhaps at this point you would care to clear up that point. CHAIRPERSON Very well. Mr Vanana Zulu, would you please stand up Sir. MR VANANA ZULU STANDS UP CHAIRPERSON To the extent that there may be allegations made in these proceedings against you, you have the right to be present at these hearings and to dispute any such allegations that are made against you and if you so wish, to engage a legal representative to represent you. Do you understand those rights? MR ZULU Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Very well. MR DA SILVA Mr Chairman, if I might come in here. I am under the understanding - a number of notices have been sent to the IFP of implicated persons, I have been brought under the understanding that Mr Frederich, the representatives there on the other side are handling a watching brief for these persons. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, we would like to clarify this with Mr Vanana Zulu. For that purpose we would seek a short adjournment or we can resolve the situation after the adjournment at half past one but if it's important, if the Chairperson feels that we must sort it out now, I would ask for a short adjournment to sort it out now. CHAIRPERSON I think it is, so that if we do proceed we are at least assured that if Mr Zulu desires to be legally represented there is at least someone to look after his interests. MR BERGER I agree with that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. We will take a very short adjournment of about five minutes and then we will return to the hall to enable counsel to take instructions, if any from Mr Zulu as to his desire or otherwise to be represented, thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION VICTOR MTHEMBU (s.u.o.) MR STRYDOM Chairperson, my attorney has been instructed to appear on behalf of Mr Vanana Zulu, to look after his interests as well. CHAIRPERSON Mr Zulu, you do confirm that do you? Mr Zulu you do confirm that you now are legally represented in these proceedings? We have been told that you are now represented. Yes, thank you very much. Thank you Mr Strydom. Mr Berger, would you proceed please. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. Chairperson, following on from what was said just before the adjournment, if Mr Strydom and his attorney have a watching brief for the IFP and for other implicated persons, I would ask on behalf of the victims that that be disclosed to the Committee and that the names of the people on whose behalf there is a watching brief be disclosed. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR STRYDOM Chairperson, we've been instructed to carry a watching brief for the IFP as well as members of the IFP possibly implicated in this matter. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. RECORDING EQUIPMENT SWITCHED OFF MR BERGER Mr Strydom, just something that concerns me, a whole range of people were given Section 19(4) notices relevant to these proceedings and it may just help me, I don't know if it would help the rest of the Committee, to know which of those people that received 19(4) notices you are acting for in a watching brief type capacity, i.e. just covering their interests. You don't have to read them all out now, maybe you can just provide us with a schedule in due course but that may just help us know, I would simply like to know who specifically is represented and whose interests may not be covered so that we don't end up with a situation where someone's named at a later stage when we have to go through the same process again of just confirming that instruction. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I'm not aware of all the notices that have been sent out, that the names I have seen in relation to notices are: Mr Themba Khoza, Mr Humphrey Ndlovu, Mr Gobela. Those are the names I can remember but I will make sure about that and I will let the Committee know. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] understand the position regardless of any notices that might have been issued, you are looking after the interests of the IFP and any members of the IFP who might be implicated in the course of these proceedings? MR STRYDOM That is indeed so Chairperson, and in fact there was also a notice sent to the IFP as a party. CHAIRPERSON Yes. RECORDING EQUIPMENT SWITCHED OFF MR BERGER You see Mr Strydom, what concerns me is just a general sense of representing people, you don't know whether they've actually instructed you or not and they may want someone else to represent them for all I know. We've already had a problem with Mr Lukhozi which you alerted us to. I'm just concerned that there may be conflicts of interest between different individuals and someone. This sort of blanket mandate isn't very desirable. MR STRYDOM Chairperson, I appear for the IFP and the members of the IFP on a watching brief basis and not in any other capacity and that is why I initially did not place that on record because I don't see the need to place yourself on record if you just carry a watching brief. MR BERGER That's fine, let's leave it at that. CHAIRPERSON Please proceed Mr Berger. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mthembu, could you turn please to page 6 of the papers, paragraph 8. You say there: "These weapons were kept by Vanana Zulu and he hid them away. I saw these weapons when they were handed to us by Vanana Zulu one by one" Do you see that? MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR BERGER When did this take place? MR MTHEMBU What I explained here relates to another era and not for what we are here about. MR BERGER When did this take place is my question. MR MTHEMBU I am explaining about something that happened at some other time. As my lawyer had explained, this did not happen when we went to attack Boipatong. MR BERGER I'm asking you a simple question, I'm just asking you to say when it happened. MR MTHEMBU It happened at another time. I cannot be specific about the date. There was - I thought we were talking or we were discussing Boipatong. CHAIRPERSON Was it before or after the attack on Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU After the Boipatong attack. MR BERGER Who handed out the weapons on the night of the Boipatong attack? MR MTHEMBU I would not know because I knew Mr Chonco to be responsible for the weapons. MR BERGER Are you saying you did not see anybody hand out any weapons on the night of the attack? MR MTHEMBU No, I did not see anybody. MR BERGER I'm going back now to that affidavit I was reading from. The last sentence we read, just to put you in the picture, said "At these meetings" those are the Tuesday and Thursday meetings. "we were informed when new weapons had arrived" We've dealt with that. It goes on to say: "The arms are brought by members of the Inkatha Freedom Party who arrive at the hostel from Natal. I have seen them arrive with AK47's and spears with poison tips" Do you know anything about this? MR MTHEMBU No. MR BERGER You have never witnessed or heard of members of the IFP bringing weapons to the hostel, Kwamadala, from Natal? MR MTHEMBU No, I did not see it Sir. MR BERGER It continues - I'm sorry, as far as you're concerned all the weapons came from Vosloorus? MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR BERGER "Some of those who arrived come to the area to work. However others come to carry out missions and attacks in the local township. Others come to bring arms and then leave" Do you know anything about people who came to carry out missions and attacks in the local township? MR MTHEMBU No, I have no knowledge. MR BERGER Do you have any knowledge of any missions other than the - I'm not talking now about the Boipatong Massacre on the 17th of June 1992, do you have knowledge of any missions, whether by you or whether by anybody else, where attacks were carried out in the local township? MR MTHEMBU At that time there were many incidents that occurred that we would hear about on the radio. These attacks took place in the townships. MR BERGER Did the people from Umsinga ever go out on their own to carry out attacks in the local township? MR MTHEMBU I would not have knowledge of that Sir. MR BERGER At any time I'm talking about. MR MTHEMBU As I have mentioned that I cannot have or I do not have knowledge of it, I mean that exactly. MR BERGER Do you have knowledge of any members of the Umsinga contingent going out of the hostel at any time to shoot at the ANC or to shoot at members of the ANC? MR MTHEMBU No, I do not have knowledge about that. MR BERGER At any stage they went out, you have no knowledge? MR MTHEMBU No, I do not. MR BERGER Please have a look at page 14, paragraph 29. You say there "The hitsquad of Umsinga also went out several times on their own initiative to shoot members of the ANC" What do you say about that Mr Mthembu? CHAIRPERSON What paragraph are you referring to? MR BERGER Paragraph 29 at the bottom of page 14. CHAIRPERSON Before you answer that, does this relate to the Boipatong incident or is it a subject of another application for amnesty? MS PRETORIUS Mr Chairperson, may just say that on page 14 there is a heading "1993" It relates to things that happened in 1993 in the Sebokeng area. If that is of any help. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Berger? MR BERGER Chairperson, first of all when this ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON You can put the question. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, do you remember the question? MR MTHEMBU Yes. What you actually asking about has nothing to do with the reason why we are here. CHAIRPERSON You see Mr Mthembu, the paragraph that has just been read over to you, that's were you say "The hitsquad in Umsinga also went out several times on their own initiative to shoot members of the ANC" That's what he's asking you about. MR MTHEMBU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Well, what is your answer to that? MR MTHEMBU Yes, it did happen but it has nothing to do with why we are here today. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, when you gave your evidence on Monday you were very careful to point out that pages 4 to 8 concern the Sebokeng attack and that pages 8 to 17 concern the Boipatong Massacre. More than that, I was very careful in the way that I asked you the question and I think on more than one occasion I said to you that my question related to at: "any time". I asked you: "At any time, did the members of the Umsinga contingent go out on their own initiative to shoot members of the ANC", and you said: "No". Do you recall that? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I do, but if you look from page 8 to page 12 it is specified that that is the Boipatong Massacre. MR BERGER Why did you say: "At not time did the members of the Umsinga contingent go out on their own initiative to shoot members of the ANC"? MR MTHEMBU Mr Berger, this happened a long time ago. I am not like a computer. MR BERGER To go back to this affidavit that I'm reading from, will you now agree with the sentence which reads "However" Well let me go one sentence back: "Some of those who arrived come to the area to work. However others come to carry out missions and attacks in the local township" Will you now agree with that sentence? MR MTHEMBU I will not agree with something that I do not know about. MR BERGER When according to you did the members of the Umsinga contingent begin their initiatives, going out to shoot members of the ANC, when did that start? MR MTHEMBU I do not know when that began. MR BERGER The Umsinga contingent arrived in 1990 you told us. MR MTHEMBU I arrived at Kwamadala Hostel in 1990 and that's when I saw them. I do not know when they arrived at the hostel. MR BERGER Then just for clarity Mr Mthembu, is the reference on page 14 to a hitsquad also a typing mistake? MR MTHEMBU There is not a mistake but you should be careful of the year that is being referred to. The year in this page is 1993. MR BERGER So in 1993 they were a hitsquad? MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR BERGER In 1992 they were a self-defence unit? MR MTHEMBU ...[no English translation] MR BERGER Self-protection unit Mr Mthembu. MR MTHEMBU That is one and the same thing that we are talking about. MR BERGER A self-protection unit, I beg your pardon. Are you saying that a self-protecting unit and a hitsquad is the same thing? MR MTHEMBU ...[no reply] MR BERGER Sorry Interpreters, the question was: "Are you saying that a self-protection unit and a hitsquad are the same thing"? INTERPRETER It was asked. MR BERGER It didn't come through for some reason, maybe you forgot to press the button. Would you just repeat it please? MR MTHEMBU In my opinion I think we may use the self-protection unit and no the word: "hitsquad". MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, let's please try and get some certainty on this. On page 14, paragraph 29 you again use the word: "hitsquad". You told the Committee that is not an error, you meant to use the word: "hitsquad", correct? MR MTHEMBU We spoke about this yesterday. I don't know whether you do not understand it correctly. MR BERGER After you said to the Committee: "This was not a mistake", this particular one when I asked you, you then said: "But it's the time that I'm referring to. I'm referring to a later time". My question to you then was: "The contingent from Umsinga that you call a hitsquad in 1993, you call a self-protection unit in 1992 but it's the same thing", am I correct? MR MTHEMBU As I explained that this was a typing error. It was the self-protection unit, not that it changed in 1993, it was still the self-protection unit. MR BERGER So this at the bottom of page 14 is a typing error? MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR BERGER The affidavit then continues "During the four months that I have lived at the Kwamadala Hostel I have seen units being sent out on missions, however I have not known exactly where they have been sent to or what missions they have carried out" I take it you can't comment on that? MR MTHEMBU No, I have no knowledge of that. MR BERGER The rest of the affidavit deals with the attack on the 15th of March 1992, and you've already told the Committee you have no knowledge of that. I just want to ask you one thing, there's an allegation here that the unit members were given arms by Buthelezi. Do you know of any Buthelezi who had access to the arms which were stored at Kwamadala Hostel? MR MTHEMBU I have no knowledge about that person. MR BERGER As far as your co-applicant Thembelani Buthelezi is concerned, he did not have access to the guns and the weapons stored at the Kwamadala Hostel? MR MTHEMBU I have no knowledge about that, I only knew him to be the Chairman. MR BERGER Well, he was also part of your unit, you would have known if he had access to guns would you not? MR MTHEMBU No, I would not have known. MR BERGER On the night of the massacre, 17 June 1992, you say you did not see any guns being handed out, is that correct? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Did you see any people carrying guns that night? CHAIRPERSON Apart from those who were in his company which he has already told us about. MR BERGER Yes. Apart from Mr Chonco and Mr Khanyile I believe it was. MR MTHEMBU As I've already explained before I had gone as part of the attack on the ANC and not to check maybe as a journalist as to who had what, who did what at what time. CHAIRPERSON It would help us a great deal Mr Mthembu, if you just confine yourself to answering the question. If you did not see any other persons carrying firearms please say so. I think it will help us to shorten this proceeding, rather than to keep on making comments. MR MTHEMBU I did not see anybody else. MR BERGER Let's get certainty Mr Mthembu. Besides Mr Khanyile, besides Mr Chonco, you did not see any other person carrying any other firearm that night, correct? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR BERGER You did not see anybody carrying an AK47? MR MTHEMBU No, I did not. MR STRYDOM Can I just object here, I just want to put something right. Initially Mr Khanyile's name wasn't mentioned, it was Mr Mabote's name that was mentioned. So it wasn't Khanyile, although his name was mentioned today but initially the name that was mentioned was Mabote. MR BERGER Well Mr Mthembu, then let's get certainty on that. Did you see Mr Mabote carrying a gun? MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR BERGER What gun was he carrying? MR MTHEMBU He had a small gun. MR BERGER Mr Chonco, he was carrying a gun? MR MTHEMBU Yes, he had a gun. MR BERGER What gun did he have? MR MTHEMBU An AK47. MR BERGER Mr Khanyile was he carrying a gun? MR MTHEMBU I don't remember what weapon he had. MR BERGER Alright. Besides those three men you did not see anyone else carrying any gun the night of the attack, correct? MR MTHEMBU That is correct Sir, I did not see anybody else. MR BERGER That is before, during or after the attack you did not see? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR BERGER Nobody? MR MTHEMBU There was no-one besides the ones that I have mentioned to you. MR BERGER Let me read to you what you say at page 37, paragraph 6 "We sang songs and we went out through the only main gate of Kwamadala Hostel. We went straight under the bridge across the road and entered Boipatong. All these people who came from Umsinga were holding the machine guns such as AK47 rifles" MR MTHEMBU I have just told you that Mr Chonco is the person who had the AK47. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, I'll read it again to you, the sentence that really concerns me and you will recall in your affidavit you said there were 40 to 50 people from Umsinga and in this paragraph you now say "All these people who came from Umsinga were holding the machine guns such as AK47 rifles" All, not Mr Chonco, all. MR MTHEMBU I don't think you clarify this when you say 40 to 50 people. What I know is that the 40 to 50 people were protecting the community of Kwamadala, not that all of them went to attack at Boipatong. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mthembu, the point is this, you told us that the only persons that you saw carrying guns that night were the individuals that you've mentioned, I think you mentioned Mabote and another person. Now in your affidavit you state that there people from Umsinga who were carrying machine guns, do you see the difference? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON That's what counsel wants you to explain. Is that right? MR BERGER Yes, Chairperson. MR MTHEMBU I'll explain that. What happened is that I do not mean that all these people had guns but because Mr Chonco was one of the people from Umsinga he is the person that I saw carrying a gun but I cannot say that I saw the others with the guns because there were many people at that gathering. CHAIRPERSON You see counsel wants to find out the following: You told us that the only persons that you saw carrying firearms that night were the individuals that you've mentioned which about two I think it is, but in your affidavit you indicate that people from Umsinga as well also had firearms and you give the number as being, well, the point is that you also mention that there were people from Umsinga who also had machine guns. In other words, it was not only these two individuals that you mentioned who had firearms but there were other people including the people from Umsinga who had firearms, is that right? MR MTHEMBU I did not fully understand whether you meant whether these people were present in the attack or were merely present residing at the hostel. CHAIRPERSON You gave us two individuals who you say had firearms, okay. MR MTHEMBU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Apart from those two individuals were there any persons in the group that attacked Boipatong who had firearms? MR MTHEMBU Yes, there were other people who had guns but I cannot say who they were. CHAIRPERSON So there were other individuals? MR MTHEMBU Yes, there were but I don't know who they are because it was at night and I could not see clearly who had what gun. MR BERGER But you knew that those people that had the guns were the people from Umsinga. MR MTHEMBU Not only the people from Umsinga were launching the attack but many of us from the hostel were also part of this attack. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, in paragraph 6 you state as a fact that the people from Umsinga were holding AK47's, all of them. MR LAX To correct you Mr Berger, he says "They were holding machine guns like AK47's" So there might have been other kinds of machine guns but I just don't want to put wrong words in his mouth. MR BERGER Thank you Mr Lax. The people from Umsinga, all of them you saw were holding machine guns? MR MTHEMBU Mr Berger, you don't understand, not only the people from Umsinga were going out on this attack, that you should know. We went there in large numbers. I'm talking here about residents from Kwamadala Hostel, they went out the attack. I don't know really what it is that you want. MR BERGER Are you saying that the only person you saw with an AK47 was Mr Chonco or are you saying that you saw many people carrying AK47's? MR MTHEMBU Sir, I am saying here that some of the people in our company had guns but the one person that I saw with an AK47 was Mr Chonco and I therefore cannot answer to other people carrying guns when I did not see the guns. MR BERGER Please listen carefully to my question. Did you that night either before, during or after the attack, see a lot of AK47's? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER Where did you see them? MR MTHEMBU At the stadium. MR BERGER Who was carrying them? MR MTHEMBU They were on the ground, nobody was carrying them. END OF TAPE - POSSIBLE WORDS LOST MR MTHEMBU They were sprinkled with some traditional medicine and others took the guns away and we went out on the attack. MR BERGER Who took the guns when you went out on the attack? MR MTHEMBU I would not have knowledge of that Sir. MR BERGER There were people that you saw taking these guns but you don't know who they were, is that what you're saying? MR MTHEMBU Sir, I am trying to explain here that as the people were leaving the stadium to go and attack I was also concentrating on what I had to do. MR BERGER Let me come back to the beginning then Mr Mthembu. Why when I asked you whether you saw anybody carrying a firearm that night, either before, during or after the attack, did you not mention the men from Umsinga who you saw holding machine guns? Why didn't you mention that? MR MTHEMBU I don't know really what you want me to say now. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, I'm putting to you once again that you are deliberately being selective with what you disclose. You are deliberately holding back relevant information relating to the Boipatong attack. MR MTHEMBU Mr Berger, I came before this Commission here because I want reconciliation between myself and the residents of Boipatong. There is nothing else that I am holding back. I am just disclosing here what information I have. MR BERGER When I asked you to disclose the various committees to the Committee, the various committees at Kwamadala, you mentioned the Senior Committee, you mentioned the Youth Committee, we've now dealt with the hitsquads, I want to ask you about another committee, the Amabutho, do you know about them? MR MTHEMBU No, I don't know them. MR BERGER Have you heard the word: "Amabutho"? MR MTHEMBU I did hear the name before back home. There is a place where these Amabutho gather. MR BERGER Is that the only meaning that you can attach to the word: "Amabutho", it's a place where certain people gather in Natal? MR MTHEMBU Yes, Sir. MR BERGER You don't know that Amabutho means warriors? MR MTHEMBU No, I don't know about that. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, is Zulu not your mother tongue? MR MTHEMBU It is. MR BERGER Do you know Mr Bhekinkosi Mkhize? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I know him. MR BERGER Was he not the leader of the Amabutho at the Kwamadala Hostel? MR MTHEMBU I don't know whether he was a leader or not. MR BERGER Was he a member of the Amabutho at the Kwamadala Hostel? MR MTHEMBU I don't know Sir. As I have explained, I really don't know whether he was a member or not. It was not my duty to know what he was and what he was not. MR BERGER Were you a member of the Amabutho at the Kwamadala Hostel? MR MTHEMBU As I have explained Sir, that I was a member of the youth. MR BERGER Do I understand your evidence that you know absolutely nothing about the Amabutho at the Kwamadala Hostel? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I don't have knowledge to that effect. MR BERGER And if Mr Mkhize says that the Amabutho are a senior committee of the IFP, you will say you know nothing about that? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I know nothing about this. MR BERGER And if he says that Mr Damarra Chonco was a member of the Amabutho you have no knowledge of that? MR MTHEMBU Yes. CHAIRPERSON There was a committee in Kwamadala which was referred to as the Senior Committee, were you aware of that? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I know that. CHAIRPERSON What was the Zulu word for that Committee? MR MTHEMBU I don't have a word or a name. I don't know how to put it. I don't have an alternative in isiZulu. It was a Senior Committee. CHAIRPERSON I do understand ...[intervention] MR MTHEMBU ...[no English translation] CHAIRPERSON Is that how it was referred to, ...[indistinct]? MR MTHEMBU I am referring to it as a Senior Committee. For example when a meeting was to be held these are the people who had to give us permission. CHAIRPERSON It didn't have any specific name apart from being referred to as a Senior Committee? MR MTHEMBU No, I don't have knowledge. MR BERGER Is it your evidence that Mr Mkhize was not a leader in the hostel, Bhekinkosi Mkhize? MR MTHEMBU I don't understand Sir. MR BERGER You remember yesterday I asked you for the names of the leaders in the hostel. You told the Committee that Mr Khumalo and Mr Vanana Zulu were the leaders of the Senior Committee, you told the Committee that Mr Buthelezi, Mr Mthembu, yourself, and Ntzwee were the leaders of the Youth Committee. MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR BERGER According to you there are no other committees, correct? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I don't know of any other committee. MR BERGER So I'm asking you, is it your evidence that Mr Mkhize was not a leader within the hostel? MR MTHEMBU No. MR BERGER No, he was not or no, that was not your evidence? MR MTHEMBU I mean as far as I know yesterday I mentioned people's names whom I knew were in the committee. MR BERGER And you know Mr Mkhize? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I know him. MR BERGER Let me read to you what he says at page 70, paragraph 4.2 "The political structures were the senior men and the youth. The political structures had nothing to do with the management structure in the hostel" 4.3 "The youth was responsible for the organisation of rallies whilst the senior structure was responsible for discipline within the IFP party as well a decision making that relates to the IFP within the hostel" 4.4 "The steering committee was ultimately responsible to Iscor. The structure I was the leader of was called Amabutho and in that capacity I was the leader of the IFP in the hostel" You never knew that, is that your evidence? MR MTHEMBU No, I didn't know that. MR BERGER According to you, who was the leader of the IFP in the hostel? MR MTHEMBU Mr Vanana Zulu. MR BERGER As far as you knew, Mr Bhekinkosi Mkhize held no position of leadership in the hostel at all? MR MTHEMBU Yes, Sir. MR BERGER And yet according to you he was one of two people who gave the instruction to attack Boipatong. How is that possible Mr Mthembu? MR MTHEMBU That is possible because our own people were dying, he too may have said that we should go out and attack. MR BERGER Who made the decision to attack Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU I can explain here that decisions were taken by each one person who had already suffered, any Kwamadala Resident. They knew how people were being necklaced and there had come a time to show the people of Boipatong that we too were human just like them and we could not stand aloof as our people were being necklaced. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, who made the decision to attack this Vaal community? MR MTHEMBU It was Mr Chonco. MR BERGER At page 19 you were asked the question, paragraph 17.1 "Who made the decision to attack a Vaal community"? Your answer, page 29, paragraph 17.1: "To my best knowledge Mr Vanana Zulu and Mkhize made the decision to attack the Vaal community" MR MTHEMBU You are talking about something else here, you are talking about the Vaal community, you're not talking about the Boipatong matter anymore. MR BERGER Which decision are you referring to here? MR MTHEMBU Here I am referring to - you asked me as to who took the decisions to attack the people in Boipatong and I explained to you and I really don't know how else you want me to explain here. MR BERGER You say that this answer at page 29 relates to another decision, not the decision to attack Boipatong. I'm asking you which decision is this now that you are referring to? MR MTHEMBU Here I am referring to the decision to attack Boipatong. MR BERGER I'm talking about paragraph 17.1 where you say "To my best knowledge, Mr Vanana Zulu and Mkhize made the decision to attack the Vaal community" Let me ask you this question then, that decision that you are referring to in 17.1, when was it taken? CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger, I think in fairness to the witness please do point out that the response that occurs at the pages that you've drawn his attention to are in response to questions which occurs on page 19. MR BERGER I've done that. CHAIRPERSON Yes. 17.1 deals with the Vaal community. 17.2 deals with the Vaal community and then 17.3 then deals with Boipatong and then if you look at 17.3 he says in his statement "Mkhize became angry and agreed with Mr Chonco to attack the residents of Boipatong" MR BERGER Yes. CHAIRPERSON And that's how I understood his evidence so far, that the decision to attack Boipatong was taken by Chonco and Mkhize. MR BERGER Chairperson, the question in 17.1 is "Who made the decision to attack a Vaal community"? CHAIRPERSON Well I don't know whether we can take the matter any further that this because it becomes clear here that a distinction is being made as to took the decision to attack which part. MR LAX Sorry Mr Mthembu, maybe you can just help us here. A question was asked of you in the request for further particulars, referring to a Vaal community, you understand that, not the Vaal community, a specific Vaal community. Which community did you understand you were replying to when you gave your lawyers instructions to answer that question? MR MTHEMBU Here I was explaining about incidents that happened in the Vaal community, Boipatong included, Sebokeng included. When we're talking about the Vaal community I think we are talking about the community in that area. MR LAX Mr Berger's question is then to you, if you thought it was a general meeting at which a decision was taken to attack the Vaal community in general terms, when was that meeting? That is what he's asking you. It's not a meeting to attack Boipatong, it's a meeting to attack in general terms and you give a specific answer and he wants to know - and it will help us a great deal if you can help us, when was that meeting? Which is different from the Boipatong specific meeting, on your evidence so far. Can you help us there perhaps? MR MTHEMBU I do not have knowledge about that meeting Sir. MR BERGER Well then why do you say "To my best knowledge, Mr Vanana Zulu and Mkhize made the decision to attack the Vaal community" MR MTHEMBU I am saying this because there were people who were older than us, that is at the hostel, and if they too had come to realise that it is enough, the pain is enough it was therefore upon themselves too to indicate that we should attack the people who were killing our people. MR BERGER So your leaders, am I right then, your leaders in the hostel took a decision at some time before the Boipatong attack, took a decision in general terms: "We are now going to launch attacks on the Vaal community, be it Sebokeng, Boipatong, Sharpeville, wherever. In general, we are now going to launch attacks, the leaders decided that", correct? MR MTHEMBU Even though I did not hear them decide but everybody who was a resident at Kwamadala Hostel had already suffered a lot of harassment from the people or by the people at the Vaal community or of the Vaal community. MR BERGER But you see Mr Mthembu, when you were asked a question and you understood that question meant a decision to attack the Vaal community, you identified two people, Vanana Zulu and Mkhize as being the people who took that decision. MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR BERGER My question to you is, why did you identify those two people? MR MTHEMBU I am explaining this because Mr Zulu was in charge of us at the hostel and every hostel resident had grown tired of what was happening to them.. MR BERGER You see Mr Mthembu it's really very simple, and I don't know why you don't want to say this, but if Mr Mkhize was not a leader why did you mention him in paragraph 17.1? MR MTHEMBU I am referring to him here because he too was a resident at the hostel and he too was suffering the same pain at the hands of the township residents. CHAIRPERSON You were not present when the decision to attack a Vaal community or the Vaal community was taken. MR MTHEMBU No, Sir. CHAIRPERSON You don't know who took that decision but you assumed that is must have been the senior people? MR MTHEMBU Yes, Sir, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Who were in the position of leadership? MR MTHEMBU That is correct Sir. CHAIRPERSON If that is so, Mkhize must have been a leader, he was a leader of what? MR MTHEMBU ...[no English translation] CHAIRPERSON He was a leader of what? MR MTHEMBU Mr Berger is reading here that he was a leader of Amabutho. CHAIRPERSON But that's the assumption you made. MR MTHEMBU What I am saying here is because Mr Berger had just read to me from Mkhize's statement. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I understand that but all I want to find out is this, the answer that you gave suggests that you were assuming that a decision to attack the Vaal community must have been taken by persons who were in a leadership position. You do say "To the best of your knowledge" MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is according to my knowledge because the decision was taken by people at top ranks. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. Now at the time you made that statement, in your mind what leadership position did Mr Mkhize hold at the time? MR MTHEMBU As far as I know I did not have knowledge about his position. CHAIRPERSON Okay. Was he an influential person perhaps within the Kwamadala Hostel? MR MTHEMBU No, he was a respected person because he was an elderly. MR BERGER He was an elderly person so he was respected? MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR BERGER But he was not a leader, he was not one of the leaders? MR MTHEMBU As far as I know Sir, as I have explained I did not have knowledge about that. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, who were the commanders in chief of the attack on Boipatong on the 17th of June 1992? MR MTHEMBU As I have explained Sir, that Mr Chonco was the person who was in charge of the attack at Boipatong. MR BERGER And what about Mr Mkhize? Was he in charge, also in charge of the attack? MR MTHEMBU I have no knowledge. What I can say is that he was present at the stadium where we were addressed about the fact that we were going to launch an attack on Boipatong. MR BERGER The question is simple Mr Mthembu, was Mr Mkhize a commander of the attack or not? MR MTHEMBU No, I don't have knowledge about that Sir. MR BERGER At page 19, question 16 you were asked "Who between Mr Bhekinkosi Mkhize and Mr Damarra Chonco was commander in chief of the attackers on 17 June 1992 in Boipatong"? Your answer, page 28, paragraph 16: "Both of them were the commanders of the Boipatong attack on the 17th of June 1992" Do you have any explanation for that Mr Mthembu? MR MTHEMBU As I have explained here that Mr Chonco was the person in charge and I also indicated that Mkhize was also present at the stadium just before we left on the attack. CHAIRPERSON At the stadium, did Mr Chonco address you or address the people who had gathered there? MR MTHEMBU That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mkhize, did he address them as well? MR MTHEMBU I don't remember Sir, whether he addressed us or not. MR BERGER Chairperson, I'm no moving onto another section, thank you. CHAIRPERSON We intend rising at one thirty, so perhaps closer to the time you will indicate when it is appropriate for you to do so. MR BERGER I will. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well, thanks. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, I want you now to try an be as specific as you can. You've said that at some point a decision was taken to attack the Vaal community, we're now talking a number of townships, correct? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that is correct. MR BERGER You don't know when that decision was taken, can you tell the Committee how many months before the attack on Boipatong was that decision taken? MR MTHEMBU I do not have knowledge about that. MR BERGER You cannot say whether it was two weeks before the attack or two months or two years before the attack? MR MTHEMBU I would not have knowledge about that Sir. MR BERGER Why was the decision taken? And please try and be very careful in your answer, why was the decision taken to attack the townships of the Vaal if I can put it that way. MR MTHEMBU As far as I know it was because there were many people from our organisation who had been burnt in the townships. There had been several incidents of this nature. Even in the town people would be abducted and burnt. I think that was the reason why people were eventually attacked. MR BERGER Mr Mthembu, that's why I ask you please to concentrate on my questions. I'm asking you why the decision was taken to attack the townships of the Vaal, not the decision to attack Boipatong. Do you see the difference? MR MTHEMBU As I'm explaining it to you Sir, as far as I know I think it was taken because there were some of our people who were being burnt down in the townships. MR BERGER Now when did that start, the killing of IFP members in the townships? MR MTHEMBU As far as I know we started suffering in July 1990, after we had held a meeting in a stadium in Zone 7. From then onwards we started encountering problems, like people going to work would be abducted and be burnt in the township. MR BERGER You say: "in the township", which township are you referring to? MR MTHEMBU I am talking of townships such as Sharpeville. MR BERGER And which others? CHAIRPERSON I'm sorry, the meeting that you're referring to which was held at Zone 7, is that right? Was that in Sebokeng? MR MTHEMBU Yes. CHAIRPERSON Alright. Was that the meeting of the IFP? MR MTHEMBU Yes, Sir, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Was that the first meeting of the IFP in Sebokeng? MR MTHEMBU As far as I know it was the first meeting in Sebokeng. MR BERGER Thank you. These attacks that you are talking about are attacks that took place in Sharpeville? MR MTHEMBU What I'm explaining Sir is that that is one of the areas of which I heard that our people were being terrorised but our people were also being terrorised in other townships in the Vaal Triangle. MR BERGER Well, let's be more specific then, when was the decision taken to attack Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU As far as I know there were people in the Boipatong township who had families there and on their way to their homes they would be abducted and necklaced such as a Mr Gazu that I can still remember and another boy, Mbatha boy, who had also been killed in Boipatong. It then came to a point where it was discussed that these attacks were now continuing on our people. CHAIRPERSON I think the question that you're being asked is this: when was the decision to attack Boipatong taken and the date if you know? That is your question, is that right Mr Berger? MR BERGER Yes, yes indeed. MR MTHEMBU I would not have knowledge Sir, on when the decision was taken. MR BERGER When did you become aware of the decision to attack Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU I knew about it when I had already arrived at the stadium. MR BERGER This was on the night of the 17th of June? MR MTHEMBU That is correct Sir. MR BERGER Now the people who were killed in Boipatong, if I understand you correctly Boipatong was selected as a target for attack because members of the IFP had been killed in Boipatong, is that your evidence? MR MTHEMBU Yes, Sir. MR BERGER The people who you say were killed in Boipatong are one, Gazu ...[intervention] MR MTHEMBU ...[no English translation] MR BERGER Gazwe? MR MTHEMBU Gazu. MR BERGER Gazu. And am I correct, you mentioned Mbatha? MR MTHEMBU Yes, one of them was a boy from the Mbatha family in Mashlabateni. MR BERGER Anybody else that you say was killed in Boipatong or are these two the only two? MR MTHEMBU I'm only naming those that I know or those that I remember. I cannot mention others because I do not know them. MR BERGER And you do not know of them either, you do not know of any other killings other than Gazu and Mbatha. MR MTHEMBU No, I do not. CHAIRPERSON Well the question is, apart from Gazu and Mbatha, were there any other IFP persons who were killed in Boipatong but whose particulars you don't know? MR MTHEMBU I am trying to explain that there were others that were killed but whose or details I do not know. MR BERGER Do you know when Gazu was killed? MR MTHEMBU Although I may not remember but it was before the attack on Boipatong. MR BERGER How long before the attack, one week, one month, one year? CHAIRPERSON Is there an issue as to whether Gazu or Mbatha were killed in Boipatong? MR BERGER Indeed yes. CHAIRPERSON Is the evidence that there were no such deaths, these individuals were not killed in Boipatong? MR BERGER Well Chairperson, the first time that we've had any particularity on who was killed is now. CHAIRPERSON Yes, but I just want to find out, is it an issue that these two individuals were killed in Boipatong? MR BERGER Yes, yes it is. CHAIRPERSON What is the issue, is it that they were not killed? MR BERGER Well Chairperson, I have consulted on this specific issue ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I know that but I want to know so that we can give the witness the opportunity to know what is it that is an issue about this. MR BERGER Chairperson, on the basis of the instructions that I have so far these two names are not mentioned. I cannot now say as a matter of fact I'm disputing it, I'll have to take instructions on that but on the instructions that I have thusfar there is no Gazu and there is no Mbatha. CHAIRPERSON We're not here to decide whether or not Mbatha was killed or Gazu in Boipatong. We're here about whether or not these individuals are entitled to amnesty in regard to the killings in Boipatong. This is why I'm trying to limit the scope of the inquiry. If you have the information which differs from what the witness says, please put it to him so that he can have the opportunity. I understand that on the instructions you have, these two names do not appear. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. Mr Mthembu, on the instructions I have up to this point there is no Gazu and no Mbatha who were killed in Boipatong, are you adamant that those two were killed in Boipatong before the attack? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I am certain that these people were killed in Boipatong. MR BERGER I now want to read to you from certain confessions which were made at the time of the massacre. This is a confession which was made by Bhekinkosi Mkhize. MR STRYDOM May I intervene at this stage Chairperson. It's my instructions that that confession is not an admissible confession in terms of the Constitution and in terms of the Criminal Procedure Act. In fact the State prosecutor during the trial elected not to use those confessions on - well I can't say on that basis, but we opposed the admissibility of those confessions and we still maintain that those confessions are inadmissible evidence. MR BERGER Chairperson, this very issued was argued at the Amnesty Hearings into the death of Mr Chris Hani and it was ruled then that any confessions, any statement that has been made can be used for the purposes of cross-examination in an Amnesty Hearing. CHAIRPERSON That issue is before this Committee, not then. We want to hear argument now as to why you say it is. MR BERGER Well there is a statement here, on the face of it it was made freely and voluntarily. There is nothing in this document to suggest that it's not a document signed by Mr Nkosi, Mr Mkhize, I beg your pardon. The purpose of these inquiries I would submit is to get to the truth, to ensure that there is full disclosure and here is a document which I submit is highly relevant to the issues that this Committee has to decide. CHAIRPERSON What's the position of Mr Mkhize in regard to this document? MR STRYDOM I must take specific instructions in this regard. I can just rely on my memory. My instructions previously were that that confession was not freely and voluntarily made. CHAIRPERSON Well shouldn't you take instruction from your client and let us know what the basis is upon which this is being, we can sit here and you can just take those instructions now. Will you be able to do that? MR STRYDOM I can do it but I firstly haven't go the confession at hand so I'll have to get it. I haven't got it in my possession right now. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR STRYDOM It makes it a bit difficult. I see it's twenty six minutes past already and as the Chairman indicated to take the adjournment at half past, so with the leave of the Chairman I would do it over the weekend. CHAIRPERSON Okay. We will leave aside for the moment the question of the confession and then would you go on with other ...[inaudible] END OF TAPE - POSSIBLE WORDS LOST CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] and come and tell us the basis if any upon which there is an objection to the use of the statement. MR BERGER I shall Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. MR BERGER Chairperson, I would then like to refer the witness to another confession not made by any of the applicants. CHAIRPERSON Would you refer to others matters other than the confession. Do you have other questions on other matters not on confessions? MR BERGER I do Chairperson. It's twenty seven minutes past one ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Okay. Perhaps, why don't you refer to those other matters and then the question of the confession will then be argued first thing on Monday and then we can go on with issues relating to the confessions. That confession, does it relate to one of the persons who are applicants here? MR BERGER No, it's not, it's not a confession by an applicant. CHAIRPERSON Well I think it would be proper to deal with the question of confessions thereafter. Perhaps you should continue with other questions which are not related to the confessions. MR BERGER Chairperson, even if this document on the face of it, is freely and voluntarily made. CHAIRPERSON All confessions are. MR BERGER All confessions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Berger? MR BERGER I'm back on track. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. I just want to mention one point. Mr Strydom, once you've taken instructions from your client, as soon as possible would you indicate to Mr Berger the basis upon which there will be any objection if any? MR STRYDOM I will do so Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON So that he can prepare himself accordingly. MR STRYDOM Yes, very well. MR BERGER Thank you Chairperson. I will have to leave that whole section that I was cross-examining on because the confessions fall into something else. I will move now Mr Mthembu to the question of SADF involvement in the attack. You've told the Committee about the presence of SAP vehicles, you remember? MR MTHEMBU Yes, I remember. MR BERGER And you said that as you were going past the vehicles you saw the police, they must have seen you, they did nothing to stop you. MR MTHEMBU That is correct. MR BERGER That was during the attack, am I right? MR MTHEMBU It was after the attack as we were returning. MR BERGER I will come to the police in a moment, let's deal with the SADF. Are you saying that there was no SADF involvement in the attack at all? CHAIRPERSON A broad question. MR BERGER Alright, I'll ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Perhaps you should - yes, please. MR BERGER Alright. Was the army present either before, during or after the attack on Boipatong that night? MR MTHEMBU As I've explained, when we left Boipatong as we were about to cross the road near the garage, that is where I became aware that there were soldiers standing around there, some near the robots. MR BERGER This is now as you're leaving Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU Yes. MR BERGER Did you leave through Umzumgogo Street, is that the street you left on? MR MTHEMBU I think we left through the ...[indistinct] National Board. MR BERGER ...[inaudible] next to those factories that you saw the soldiers. MR MTHEMBU It was not close by but there is a garage near the robots where I saw army vehicles parked there. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR MTHEMBU No, I do not. CHAIRPERSON You mentioned that you also saw the police. MR MTHEMBU Yes. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] to the army, where were the police? MR MTHEMBU As I've explained, army vehicles and SAP vehicles, I saw both these vehicles, they were all parked near these factories near the garage. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR BERGER So the police and the army were parked together? MR MTHEMBU Yes, that's how I would put it, it was in one area. MR BERGER What do you say about an allegation that one of your comrades shot at an army vehicle? CHAIRPERSON That is during the attack? MR BERGER During the attack yes. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MR MTHEMBU I have no knowledge about that Sir. MR BERGER You saw no army vehicle inside Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU No, I did not see any inside Boipatong. MR BERGER Did you see any police vehicles inside Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU No. MR BERGER Did you see any policemen inside Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU No, I did not. MR BERGER Did you see any whites inside Boipatong? MR MTHEMBU No, I did not. MR BERGER I take it you didn't see any white policemen inside Boipatong either? MR MTHEMBU No, I did not. MR BERGER During your criminal trial, it was part the defence case, your case, that there were members of the South African Police and in particular white members of the South African Police involved in the attack, is that correct? MR MTHEMBU I have no knowledge of that Sir. MR BERGER But it was part - let me read to you from page 3724, from the Judgment of the Court. It's at page 276 of the bundle Chairperson, line 11: "Soos reeds van tevore gemeld, ontken die beskuldigdes dat hulle enige aandeel gehad het in die aanval op Boipatong gedurende die aan van 17de Junie 1992. Uit hoofde van hulle verweer beweer die beskuldigdes dat hulle nie in staat is om te vermeld wie verantwoordelik was vir of meegedoen het aan die aanval nie maar vermeld hulle tog dat daar na die aanval gerigte was dat die Suid Afrikaanse Polisie en meer in besonder blanke lede van die Suid Afrikaanse Polisie betrokke was. Die Staatsgetuies is met bewerings van ooggetuies wat polisie betrokkenheid tydens die sitting van die Goldstone Kommissie beweer het gekonfronteer en tydens die verdedigingssaak is twee getuies, ene Selo en ene Mabuza geroep om polisie betrokkenheid te bewys" Now my question to you is, first of all do you confirm that it was part of your case in the criminal trial that there was police involvement and in particular the involvement of white policemen during the attack, that that was your case? MR MTHEMBU As I have explained Sir, I do not have knowledge about the presence of the police. I did indicate that I did not see policemen inside the township. MR BERGER Do you confirm that it was part of your case that there was such police involvement and in particular involvement by white policemen? MR MTHEMBU I am saying I have no knowledge about that. MR LAX Just explain to the witness. You know to us lawyers it's easy to know what it means: "it was part of your case" but to a lay person it's not very apparent what that means. If you could just explain what you mean by that then he'd be able to give you a direct answer I think. CHAIRPERSON Yes, and also in regard to what is meant by: "involvement". Involvement in the sense that the police were there but you know, but they just stood there without taking any action or whether they were also amongst the people who were attacking. I think that's what would maybe help. Bearing in mind that when you tell us we will rise. MR BERGER Chairperson, I'm quite happy to tell Mr Mthembu what I mean and I'll do that now but as far as the actual involvement of the police, I would have to check the record on that and so I will ask that I do that on Monday. CHAIRPERSON I think the proper thing to do probably is for you to get a sense, to go back to the record and find out what was that degree of involvement that was mentioned so that you can put that to the witness. MR BERGER What was put on behalf of the defence? CHAIRPERSON Yes, indeed. MR BERGER I will do that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I think so. MR BERGER Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Have you run out of questions now? MR BERGER No, Chairperson, I haven't. CHAIRPERSON So far? MR BERGER But I think this would be an appropriate point to take the adjournment. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well, so that you canvass this other matter. We're thinking of 9 o'clock on Monday. MR BERGER To start? CHAIRPERSON To start. MR BERGER Yes, yes, that's alright. CHAIRPERSON 9 o'clock yes. Mr Brink, 9 o'clock on Monday" MR BRINK I'm very happy with that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, very well. At this stage these proceedings are then adjourned until Monday at 9 o'clock. Thank you Mr Mthembu. I just want to remind you that you're still under oath and you are not required to discuss this case with anyone else whilst you're still under oath, do you understand that? Very well. WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS UNTIL MONDAY 13TH JULY 1998