amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-07-20 ERMELO 1 ANDRIES GAMEDE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52724&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98072030_erm_blacat1.htm MR BLACK Mr Chairman, with the leave of the Committee, my learned friend Mr Patel and myself, as indicated earlier, have felt it would be best to sketch a background to the events. You will note that application is also being sought in respect of certain acts and events which were perpetrated in the Piet Retief area. I thought this would go much quicker, but in order to put the Committee or inform the Committee as to the general events and circumstances which also prevailed at Piet Retief and in respect of Mr Gushu's application in particular relating to that area, I propose calling a witness, the current incumbent Mayor of Piet Retief, Mr Andries Gamede who will be able to advise the Committee as to what circumstances prevailed at the time Mr Gushu was recruited. So, if I may just call Mr Gamede to the ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON Is that bit of evidence very essential given the fact that we have such documentary evidence? MR BLACK Mr Chairman, I don't have really much documentary evidence as relating to Piet Retief area and certain acts were carried out by Mr Gushu in respect of which he is applying for amnesty, and that specifically took place in Piet Retief. Mr Msibi is implicated and there was also rumours circulating about the involvement of certain policemen in Piet Retief, and these two policemen whose names have been mentioned, Mr Mkhwanazi and Warrant Officer Pienaar, are in fact represented at this sitting. CHAIRPERSON Well, I assume you've properly considered the fact that you are calling a public servant and the implications that may arise there. MR BLACK Yes. CHAIRPERSON Well, carry on. Just spell the name please. Can you spell the name, Mr Black? MR GAMEDE I am Andries Mozikefani Gamede. CHAIRPERSON Mr Black, would you spell the name please? MR BLACK Yes. It's Andries, A-N-D-R-I-E-S, Gamede G-A-M-E-D-E. CHAIRPERSON Mr Gamede, have you got any objection to the taking of the oath? MR GAMEDE No. CHAIRPERSON Which language would you prefer to use? MR GAMEDE English. CHAIRPERSON Are you sure? MR GAMEDE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Would you stand please. ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE: (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Be seated. You can be seated. EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK Mr Chairman, I propose, as my indications are that there doesn't seem to be too much of a dispute as to the background information. So, I will be leading the evidence to a large extent to speed it up. My learned friends who represent victims and other parties can object if there's anything leading evidence. Mr Gamede, you are currently the elected Mayor of Piet Retief, is that not so? MR GAMEDE That is so. MR BLACK Mr Gamede, are you going to prefer to speak in Sosotsi. MR GAMEDE I will prefer to speak English. MR BLACK Okay. CHAIRPERSON Mr Gamede, that's what I asked you. I asked what do you prefer, not what you're prepared to do. MR GAMEDE I'm prepared to do that. CHAIRPERSON What do you prefer? MR GAMEDE English. CHAIRPERSON English? MR GAMEDE Yes. MR BLACK Now, Mr Gamede, what we would like you to do is to try and sketch some of the background to the events which were taking place in the Piet Retief community prior to Mr Gushu coming onto the scene and what you experienced. MR GAMEDE Yes. I actually came to Piet Retief from Pongola. I'm a person that was born in Pongola which is about a hundred (100) kilometres away from Piet Retief. I actually went for my education in Swaziland. I came into Piet Retief in 1984. Prior to my coming to Piet Retief, obviously I was looking for work. I would want to indicate that there were already a few incidents that have taken place in Piet Retief. In 1982 Vusimuzi Mbongwa who was from the local township was a member of the MK. He was actually killed by a farmer in an area which is about forty (40) kilometres away from Piet Retief, after a bombing of a petrol station. In 1993 there were two members of the ANC who were killed in the town of Piet Retief. One of the police who were actually injured there was Boshumane. In 1995 ... (intervention) MR BLACK Sorry, Mr Gamede. Is it 1995 or 1985? MR GAMEDE 1985. MR BLACK And the previous date was 1983? MR GAMEDE Yes. 1985 we had the well-known incident that took place in Piet Retief of the person who actually bombed Sasol, Bani Mlungwane who was actually secretly buried in Piet Retief after being killed by the police and some farmers in Piet Retief. In 1986 a member of the underground of the ANC, a local person, Philamyeni, was actually killed under mysterious circumstances which up to date we don't know exactly what happened. During the year of 1987 to 1988 we had a situation where a car full of, a small car, a Toyota Corolla, of members of the ANC were ambushed by the police from Piet Retief. And in 1988 we had a situation where a kombi full of members of the ANC were killed, all of them in that kombi. What actually shocked the community in Piet Retief worse was that there was an inquest that actually took place in Piet Retief where Advocate Moranyani, who is now involved with the Commission of Inquiry in the Shobashobane massacre, one lady was actually shot through her vagina in that incident. Some of the people, the bodies, were stripped with bullets and the car that they were in was stripped with bullets. Obviously in 1990 we had a situation where ... (intervention) MR BLACK Sorry, who was responsible for that shooting of the kombi? MR GAMEDE The people who actually appeared in the inquest, it was Eugene de Kock and Mr Pienaar, and there were quite a few people from Vlakplaas. (Cellular phone ringing) Have you answered? MR BLACK Yes. MR GAMEDE Okay. In 1990 out of the unbanning of the democratic forces, I think in my perception as a person who was in Piet Retief at that time, I think the security forces, if you look in terms of the 80s, they were more involved with operations that were actually directed to members of the ANC. Obviously the community was quite surprised in Piet Retief, you couldn't have a meeting. There were a thousand procedures. Actually 1989 we had the so-called election of the local council and us as democratic forces, I was already there in Piet Retief, we actually opposed the elections of the council. It was a policy that as master democratic movement we actually opposed the question of the re-election of councillors. But, however, people stood which meant that whoever was part of those elections was actually supporting the policies of the former Government which we didn't recognise, the Nationalist Party. Under these circumstances, I think the person who got the highest vote in those elections, because we actually had campaigned in the community to oppose those elections, I think it was Mr Msibi. I think he got about six hundred (600) votes and the others got about fifty two (52) and some of them were just elected unopposed, because nobody actually opposed them. So, we had a council now which was formally established which was actually representing the Nationalist Party from 1989. Then Mayor Mr Vilikazi became the Mayor and we actually campaigned as the community to say that they must resign as councillors because we believed that the system that they were representing was not representing the people of South Africa. Then the perception from the community was that these people must resign and it seemed that in 1990 when the unbanning came, the security forces had a change of strategy because now they were forced to have an ANC which was inside the country which was legal. Now, they had to deal with an ANC which was in Piet Retief which they were not sure who is MK, who is what. As we understand, that there was then an internal decision that was taken because it was seen that Mr Vilikazi was not actually enforcing the police of the Nationalist Party in order to ensure that his oppressors, he was given a free trip to Germany. When he returned from that trip he was overthrown by Mr Msibi who then became the Mayor. When he came back from that trip he was already removed as the Mayor of Piet Retief. I mean it's a township because that time you had four councils. So, it was the way of the township. Then Msibi took over in around 1990 and that's where we actually experienced a lot of difficulties as communities. We couldn't hold meetings because we were not allowed to have meetings, to call meetings, we had to use churches because you will be told that the council must sit before you can get a hall and they are not sure when the council is going to sit. Then in 1990, I think it was around March, the community obviously, because they were demanding that the councillors must resign, water was cut in the township. And that's when things went worse in 1990, when the water was cut. Then there was an attempt at that time to kidnap myself and Councillor Thabede. I wouldn't say, there were a lot of people who were injured, some were shot with rubber bullets who are still carrying those rubber bullets because of that situation, you know. When they tried to kidnap us, unfortunately there were people around. We then approached Baklender who is now the Director-General of Land Affairs. He actually issued, I think that's what actually saved our lives, he issued a letter to Piet Retief to the commander in chief of the security branch which were actually mostly involved with the covert operations. I think that's what actually tried to save our life at that time, but as I have mentioned, that I wouldn't count who was hurt and what-what. Some students were shot in schools. The situation was just chaotic, and we then received information at that time that there was a small gang calling themselves PAC. I think there was an attempt to create a gangster which, when we discussed with our own colleagues in Ermelo, it seems as if the same thing was happening where they will come up with a small gangster and that gangster was actually trying to destabilise the community. In one of the community meetings, I think it was 1991, there was an announcement that was made by the Mayor Mr Msibi that he needed people who are looking for jobs, and those people were actually bused to Gauteng. In Gauteng, as we believe, because most of them came back because they were just ... (indistinct), but they told me that they were looking for work. They were actually going there to be trained. Then around 1990/91 ... (intervention) MR BLACK When you say trained, trained for what? Being trained in what? MR GAMEDE They were trained, as far as we got information from some of them, was that they were going to escort companies that were delivering in the townships in Gauteng. What we couldn't understand why people from Piet Retief could go and stay in hostel and be trained in the hostel to protect transports in Gauteng. But I'm just narrating the situation of how I understand the situation in Piet Retief at that time. Then we then, I think it was 1991, if I'm not mistaken, we then heard that Mr Msibi was shot. Obviously we didn't know exactly what happened. I think the whole community was shocked to hear that Mr Msibi was shot, but after he was shot I think in early 1990, just after he was shot, Mr Eric Nkosi was arrested for allegedly shooting Mr Msibi for business matters. MR BLACK Does Mr Nkosi belong to any political party at all? MR GAMEDE Yes, Mr Nkosi was a member of the ANC. Eric Nkosi, not the one from - I heard you talk about Eric Nkosi here. I think in early 1992 at around one o'clock, Mr Nkosi was killed. Mr Nkosi was killed broad daylight and nothing happened. Nobody was arrested up to to date. And please, if the Commissioners can bear with me, because I'm talking from the perspective of the community and I want to present the perception the community are having, because I believe at the end of the day I would want to summarise this thing because we think as a community of Piet Retief. Okay. Then Mr Nkosi was killed at one o'clock with an AK47 inside his yard. Up to to date nobody was arrested and up to to date nobody knows who shot Mr Nkosi. The situation went worse. Before the end of that year the leader of the ANC Youth League, Sithule Hleza, was shot inside his house and killed. MR SANDI Sorry, I didn't pick up the name. Tuli Hleza? MR GAMEDE Sithule Hleza. He was shot inside his house and killed. This just made things very worse in the community because it was chaos. I won't count the small incident of people who were shot with rubber bullets and what-what, I will stick maybe to the main issues where you had the situation where people were killed. In 1993, when the students were actually having a memorial service for Sithule Hleza, it was just a year after he was killed, three students were executed in a military style. They said they saw something that went up, then they were shot and killed, three of them when they were coming from the burial site in Piet Retief. Just after three days from that a member, a chairperson of the Civic Association, Mandla Magudulela and Mphelele Malinga were killed. Now we know who killed them, because he's arrested by a Mr Msibi who's in Barberton. His name is Mdu Msibi. MR SANDI What was this Mr Msibi politically? MR GAMEDE Well, in his evidence, I actually arrested him in Pongola because we actually received information because the police couldn't do anything. I went undercover in Pongola and I pretended as if I was coming from Mr Sydney Mufamadi's office and at that time when I actually arrested Mdu close to about two hundred (200) soldiers in that court in Pongola because he went to Pongola because one of the members, as we know now, of the hit squad who were operating in Piet Retief, shot an ANC member in Pongola. So, he went to court in Pongola to see his friend who was arrested in Pongola. Now, the allegation that these people - maybe let me finish the incident. I will go to the allegations and I will say why I'm saying it's allegations. When Mandla Magudulela and Mphelele Malinga were killed by Mdu Msibi, again it was just chaos. Politically we tried having meetings with the police, with everybody to say but can't anything be done, people are being killed and I must be honest with you, nothing was done. Then we came to a stage where we called the President of the ANC to come to Piet Retief, Dr Nelson Mandela. I think he came just a day before, it was on the fourth (4th) of September. The day before he came another member of the community, Jusiah Thabede was shot through the window of his house, and as we understand, they were saying they wanted Mr Mandela to walk on top of his blood of his people. Luckily Mr Thabede was not killed. He sustained serious injuries. He went to stay in a hospital in Johannesburg for about three weeks. Now, this is Piet Retief. Late in 1984 we then politically tried to manoeuvre, to find out because we knew that some people knew about what was going on and we actually, one lady who was deployed who fell in love with one of the killers, that when we first ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON Was she deployed or did she fall in love? MR GAMEDE I think we actually deployed her because Mr Msibi was having a business and we understood from the information that we were receiving that these killers were actually floating his bar. MS BOSMAN You mentioned 1984. Is it 1984 or '94? MR GAMEDE 1994. MS BOSMAN '94. MR BLACK Mr Gamede, when you referred to Mr Msibi as you do, who is this Mr Msibi that you're always referring to? MR GAMEDE I've indicated in my evidence that, well, it seemed from the Nationalist Party side and the security establishment, that the Mayor who took over in 1989 out of the local elections was not doing enough, maybe from taking instruction. Then we understand from information that we received that he was deployed strategically to go in a first trip I think in his life to Germany. When he came back from Germany he was then overthrown by Mr Msibi, who was then the Mayor of ... (indistinct) MR BLACK Now, sir, we take it then in future whenever you are referring to Mr Msibi you're referring to the then Mayor who took over. MR GAMEDE Yes. MR BLACK Do you know what political affiliation he had? MR GAMEDE What we understood, and all of us understood in the township was that he was a member of the IFP. Then Khezwa was arrested by us. We handed him over to, obviously there was a lot of thing that happened, we took statements and what-what. He then confessed and he told us what he was involved in and what is a long story. I don't want to delay this Commission. MR BLACK Don't, but who is Mr Khezwa? What is he? Who is he? MR GAMEDE Mr Khezwa, he alleged that he was the bodyguard of Mr Msibi. He was actually recruited by Mr Mkhwanazi who was one of the security police and that evidence was actually led in court and that evidence I think is with the Truth Commission, because he actually applied for amnesty. I think why he failed I believe is because he said he was paid money to do whatever he was doing in Piet Retief. So, that information I think lies with the Truth Commission. MR BLACK Mr Chairman, Mr Khezwa has already applied for amnesty at Nelspruit during the course of early last year. I understand that his application was not successful. A great deal of this evidence came out, his involvement with Mr Msibi. So, I'm just saying that to speed things up a bit. Okay. MR GAMEDE Okay. But before maybe if I can go back a slight, before we actually knew that Khezwa was involved, some of the members of the community wanted to shoot him in a broad daylight. Then we went to the police station to report, because he was seen in a police car with Mkhwanazi, which then Mkhwanazi denied. He said no, he was never involved with Khezwa. Then there were police from Middelburg because we took it politically. Then there was a parade which was done and that was not successful until he then confers that he was involved with this incident. Then we then had another meeting with our, the now Premier of Mpumalanga, Mr Poswa where there was a random shooting, where about four people were killed in the street. We were coming from a meeting from Middelburg to discuss these killings that were going on in Piet Retief. Just four days after that four people were killed. Then this Platos Khezwa then confers that he was the one actually who was given instruction by Mr Msibi, the Mayor, to actually shoot and I must say that this evidence was led in court, but I must be honest with you, there was no court case. We don't know what happened as I'm sitting here. CHAIRPERSON Mr Black, we don't need to hear any of the background beyond the times of the incidents applied for. MR BLACK Yes. So, just to sum things up, one of the applicants, let's put it that way, Mr Gamede, it's not that we don't want to know, the community, and I can understand your need to express the feelings of the community of Piet Retief, but we don't, as indicated by the Committee, we don't really need to know what happened in 1994, and I understand that an attempt was made on your life as well. What is of concern to me is that I'm representing one of the applicants, Mr Gushu, and one of the incidents in respect of which he is seeking amnesty is the shooting of Mr Themba Mlangeni and shooting at Alpheus Msibi. He alleges that Mr Msibi was the then Mayor of Piet Retief and it was perceived that he was an active member of the IFP. I'll read what Mr Gushu says "And that he openly enjoyed the members' support of the South African Police and security forces in carrying out attacks on ANC members." Do you go along with that allegation so far? MR GAMEDE Yes, I would say I fully support that. MR BLACK Ja. MR GAMEDE Because the police will make braais in his house and, you know, it was just chaos. MR BLACK Yes. Then Mr Gushu also in his preliminary summary of his statements says that "During his period as Mayor of Piet Retief, Msibi recruited paramilitary Mkhuze, paramilitary trainees to come to Piet Retief." Is that so? MR GAMEDE Yes, since we understood from the community was that some of these people were actually involved with the attacks in Ermelo. Sometimes they would have hidden in Piet Retief. This is the allegation that we usually heard. MR BLACK And then it's also alleged that they were really trying to carrying out the policies as members of the IFP. MR GAMEDE Yes. MR BLACK As paramilitaries. And then ANC and COSATU people, South African Communist Party it should be, not SAP and organisations aligned to the ANC were being killed in large numbers. MR GAMEDE Yes, as I've indicated. MR BLACK And he mentions the killing of the ANC youth leader who he claims was a local MK commando. MR GAMEDE Yes. MR BLACK Is that correct? MR GAMEDE Yes. MR BLACK And he says prominent ANC members and supporters such as Jusiah Thabede and yourself were at one stage wounded as a result of assaults which were carried out. MR GAMEDE Yes. MR BLACK I think what is of importance too, he does mention that although he wasn't present, and I must make it very clear to those representing these parties, and I have outside the court, he says that Msibi used to house Black Cats. MR GAMEDE As we understood from the people. MR BLACK From the community? MR GAMEDE Yes. MR BLACK Okay. MR GAMEDE It was the perception in the community. MR BLACK And he names that two policemen who were commonly referred to or suspected of supporting the Black Cats, he says that members of the SAP assisted in arming and assisting IFP and Black Cat members in Piet Retief were Warrant Officer Pienaar and Sergeant Mkhwanazi. MR GAMEDE Yes, that was the perception. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, with respect, this evidence is clearly hearsay evidence and purely a perception. There's no basis for this, what this evidence is worth, Mr Chairman. MR BLACK I'm saying that this is what the perception was that these police were, and I made it very clear. MR SANDI Ja but, Mr Black, are we dealing here with a rumour or a perception? MR BLACK Perhaps Mr Gamede could clear that up. What was the feeling in the community? MR GAMEDE I'm saying this was the perception from the community until it was then confirmed by these two people I've indicated that have applied for amnesty that yes, it was so. MR BLACK Which two people are you referring to? MR GAMEDE I'm referring to Platos Khezwa and Mdu Msibi who are actually serving life sentence in Barberton. MR BLACK I see, yes. They have stated that under oath at an amnesty application? MR GAMEDE Yes. MR BLACK Okay, to cut it short. Mr Gushu will then say that he went to the bottle store business of Mr Msibi and the incident he refers to is he shot the bodyguard, Mr Themba Mlangeni. Have you heard about that? MR GAMEDE Yes, we heard about that. MR BLACK Okay. And he shot Mr Msibi as well. MR GAMEDE Yes. MR BLACK Thanks. I've nothing further to put. Thanks. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK CHAIRPERSON Mr Patel, have you got any questions? MR PATEL I've no questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Kemp? MR KEMP I have no further questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR KEMP CHAIRPERSON No questions. Mrs van der Walt? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MRS VAN DER WALT The incidents to which you are referring, Mr Gamede, which occurred in Piet Retief, is this from 1982, before you were in Piet Retief? MR GAMEDE Yes, I actually came in Piet Retief in 1984. MRS VAN DER WALT And that which you mentioned regarding the police officers in Piet Retief reflected the sentiments of the community. You yourself never made any observations, is that so? MR GAMEDE As from 1992, the issue of Mbongwa, Vusimuzi Mbongwa, yes, and the incident of Boshumane. But from 1994 I was there. So, I know ... (inaudible) MRS VAN DER WALT I think that we should limit it to the incidents which has been submitted to this honourable Committee, and that is the amnesty application of the applicants, especially that of Mr Gushu. MR GAMEDE I'm listening. MRS VAN DER WALT You have no knowledge of any incidents regarding the police which have any bearing on Mr Gushu, apart from rumours which you heard? MR GAMEDE Well, I've actually mentioned the incident which was actually an open inquiry, even in the former Government, the killing of the people in the small car and those people, one Indian lady was actually shot through his vagina in the kombi. Those incidents actually took place in Piet Retief. MRS VAN DER WALT Is that according to the application of Mr Gushu, according to which he would have shot Mr Msibi? Does it have to do with that? MR GAMEDE Yes, I'm actually giving you the background of the community of Piet Retief as we perceived situations. Just listen to me. As you are aware, the ANC had the political wing of the ANC and the military wing. I was involved with the political wing of the ANC. Mr Gushu, as you know, he was involved with the underground which, as I'm sitting here, I've got no details of because it was a secret thing. Very few people would know exactly what happens within the military wings of the ANC. But the general purpose of the ANC was to fight the Government of the day which we did successfully and we overthrow and all the organs of State at that stage, whether it was the police or the courts, they were all defending apartheid and to ensure that they keep white people in power and that's how I understand it politically. MRS VAN DER WALT What I asked you was whether you could offer any evidence regarding the case of Mr Gushu and what the South African Police's involvement was in that incident apart from the rumours which you heard, is that correct? MR GAMEDE No ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON To which incident are you referring? MRS VAN DER WALT The incident during which Mr Msibi was shot. MR GAMEDE I'm saying in terms of the policies of the democratic forces at that stage, anyone who was part, I'm talking politically, anyone who was part of the system which Mr Msibi was part, he was representing at that stage, as I'm sitting here today, I'm a Mayor of Piet Retief and I represent the ANC and I actually whatever policies that I throw on the ground are in direction of the ANC which is the Government. Msibi at that stage, he was representing the Nationalist Party which was opposed to the people of South Africa in getting liberation. MRS VAN DER WALT How do you know that Mr Msibi was a member of the National Party or represented the National Party? MR GAMEDE Yes, I'm saying the political order at that stage, the Government in place was the Government that was opposed to the people of South Africa, and whoever participated, all democratic forces made clear that whoever participated within those structures was actually opposed to the transformation and the democratic way of the people of South Africa in getting independent. MRS VAN DER WALT I have asked you the question twice regarding the involvement of the police in Mr Gushu's application before this Committee. You have not answered my question and I will leave it there. How long have you been a member of the ANC? MR GAMEDE Well, from 1993. MR BLACK You keep on saying 1993 or is it 19 ... (intervention) MR GAMEDE 1983. MR BLACK Yes. MRS VAN DER WALT Were you a member of the Civics organisation until your appointment as Mayor? MR GAMEDE Yes. MRS VAN DER WALT No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS VAN DER WALT CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO Mr Gamede, the incident to which you have referred in which a kombi was involved, during which year did this take place? MR GAMEDE It took place, I think it is about just ten (10) or fifteen (15) kilometres away from Piet Retief. MR PRINSLOO During which year, Mr Gamede? MR GAMEDE I think it was between 1987 and 1988. MR PRINSLOO Therefore it was quite a long time before the ANC was unbanned, is that correct? MR GAMEDE Yes. MR PRINSLOO And the persons to which you are referring are persons who entered or infiltrated the country in an unlawful manner? These were not people who resided in Piet Retief, is that correct? MR GAMEDE Well, I think those who actually represented the old order regarded them as illegals. We as ANC members, we regarded them as freedom fighters and the people who were legal to come into the country because it belongs to them. MR PRINSLOO Whatever your perspective, those people had nothing to do with Piet Retief, is that correct? They were people from some place else who were on their way to Durban? MR GAMEDE No, that may be your perception, but my information doesn't say that. As I understand, the majority of them, they were from Durban, you know, and they had work to do in Piet Retief and they had to go to Durban. MR PRINSLOO Do you have personal knowledge of what their instructions were or are you taking a guess? Are you simply trying to colour your evidence to suit the Piet Retief context? MR GAMEDE No, I'm not trying to colour. MR PRINSLOO Did you ever attend the post-mortem inquest? MR GAMEDE From day one until the end. MR PRINSLOO Then you would have known that those people came in from Swaziland, not by means of the border post but over the fence so to speak? MR GAMEDE Yes, I know that. MR PRINSLOO So, why would you want to connect those people to Piet Retief, simply because the incident took place just outside Piet Retief. CHAIRPERSON Because, Mr Prinsloo, they were alleged ANC members and they were shot dead. Isn't that the answer? MR PRINSLOO With respect, as I have understood the evidence which Mr Black wants to place before the Committee, it has to do with the impact on the people of Piet Retief. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. MR PRINSLOO With respect, Chairperson, there is nothing about that which would have affected the community of Piet Retief at all. CHAIRPERSON I don't wish to argue about this, but certain actions took place which, according to his opinion, led to the murder of these individuals and that is his point, not the fact that they came from Durban or Swaziland or whatever. As I have understood his evidence, these events had an impact on the community of Piet Retief. MR PRINSLOO These events of 1988 have been connected to events in 1990 and thereafter. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. CHAIRPERSON He is building up to 1992 and 1993. MR PRINSLOO I wouldn't want to waste any time here, but the evidence presented by this witness regarding the background to certain incidents which have been based on hearsay and have been drawn from other sources ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON That may be so, and you may ask questions regarding that. MR PRINSLOO Well, then for that reason, I would like to beg the opportunity from the honourable Committee that this evidence be presented tomorrow when I have had the opportunity to obtain the documents. INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON Whether they were going to Durban or coming from Swaziland is immaterial. What is the import of that? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairperson, might I just clear up something with Mr Black regarding all these various incidents to which have been referred. I'm not referring to the kombi incident, but to the Khezwa, Msibi and other incidents. It would save us some time. For a moment please, Chairperson. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION ANDRIES MOZIKEFANI GAMEDE (s.u.o.) MR PRINSLOO Thank you, Chairperson. I'm grateful to the Committee for the adjournment. I have no further questions. Just to touch on another aspect regarding the other persons who have been implicated. I have been approached and informed that someone will be appearing tomorrow. That is all which I can tell the Committee in that respect. That is the request which I have received. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON (Inaudible) ... surely. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, Mr Msibi merely approached me during the adjournment now and he told me that he intends appointing counsel which will be present tomorrow in order to present certain questions. CHAIRPERSON Well, that's his problem. He was informed of this hearing. He must do what he thinks is necessary. MR HATTINGH Chairperson, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH MR MAPOMA No questions, sir. NO QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA MR SANDI Mr Gamede, maybe just one question from me. You made mention of a group of people who were taken to Gauteng for military training. Do you recall that? How many people were taken for such training? MR GAMEDE Oh sorry. That incident actually took place in a general meeting which was called by Mr Msibi, that he was looking for people who were looking for work. And on a Monday people were then recruited in the community who were then taken to Gauteng and then that's where they were then trained. But majority of them after two weeks they came back to Piet Retief because they thought they were seriously going there to get work. So, majority of them came back. I think all of them, if I'm not mistaken. MR SANDI Those who came back, what did they come back to say was happening at this place where there was this military training going on? MR GAMEDE Yes, they said actually they went there to be trained. Then let me talk about the perception again. Was that I think it was a bit difficult, in Piet Retief majority of the community are ANC supporters. Now, I think the intention was that these people must come to the township and cause havoc, but obviously when they went there and they were trained for military training, because when they were told that they were going into Gauteng to get jobs and when they entered Gauteng they were then told to go to the township to fight in the township in Gauteng, they then returned back to Piet Retief. MR SANDI Thank you, Mr Gamede. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any questions? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK I just want to clarify one issue. When you were giving your evidence you mentioned that certain people that received training were also operating as it were, IFP operating in Ermelo from Piet Retief? MR GAMEDE Yes. If you're looking to all these incidents, there was a coordination between Piet Retief, Ermelo, Davel. It was similar incidents that were taking place and actually even if we talk about violence in Mpumalanga, it was Piet Retief, Ermelo and Davel. MR BLACK And was this violence of a political nature? MR GAMEDE Yes. MR BLACK Thanks. I've no further questions. Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK MR SANDI Just one aspect with your indulgence, Mr Chairman, on a question which I omitted to ask the witness. You said there was a thought or a belief or a perception in the community that Mr Msibi was an IFP man, is that correct? MR GAMEDE Yes. MR SANDI Why did the people think that Mr Msibi was a member of the IFP? MR GAMEDE Well, he actually associated with them. He used to go to the hostel to have meetings with the IFP members and wherever they were talking, they were saying he is their leader. MR SANDI Thank you. MR GAMEDE Maybe, Commissioner, because I think it's important as a member of the community in Piet Retief to mention this. I think we still have a traumatised community in Piet Retief and I would appeal honestly, you know, I respect your position, but I think those people who were involved, you know, with the violence, I think it's important for unity and reconciliation that people must stop this story of trying to hide because it won't help us. It won't clear. If people believe that I as Andries Gamede I was involved in violence and that person, because it still persists in Piet Retief, there are people who lost loved ones, I believe that more especially Mr Msibi is a person I know very well. He's here today. Mr Pienaar and Mkhwanazi because you can go to Piet Retief now, they believe that those were the people who created violence in that area. I think for their benefit I believe very strongly that they can take lawyers. The system that was there defended them, the courts, the police and everything, they were not prosecuted you know, because of the system that existed, but I think for the interest of the community it will be important that one day maybe in their hearts they must decide which I'm prepared as a leader of the community now that maybe we go back to the community and say, "Sorry, it was part of the conflict. We had hoped that maybe the Nationalist Party was going to continue to be in power and it didn't happen". Because continuing trying to say, "No, I will defend, I will have a lawyer", you'll have money. These TRC processes, other people are just making money, lawyers are just making money, but the issues that the communities where I come from, they have been deeply affected. As I made a mention of that lady who was shot, it was not a question that he was shot, you know, he was led to lie down, that Indian lady and shot through the vagina. And that people know, it happened. It was said in court. So, for people's sake and I'm appealing to everybody, I was not involved with this killing, he knows that, he knows Msibi. I was not involved with the shooting, but I'm appealing honestly, you know, it doesn't help to protect that I know nothing, I know nothing. That's all I want to say. Thank you. MR BLACK Mr Chairman, it's twenty past four. I know that we're scheduled to sit till half past if not later on some occasions. The next witness who I would like to call and who involves the applicant Mr Khaba to a large extent has been up until this weekend detained, I understand, in Durban, Natal and the TRC did subpoena him. We've only been able to speak to him briefly today and I would request that if we could adjourn, it's only ten minutes. If we could see him and before he's taken to prison and able to start tomorrow with his evidence. CHAIRPERSON Is Mr Khaba one of those witnesses who are going to sketch a background? MR BLACK No, Mr Khaba is one of the applicants, yes. No, he's applying for a specific offence. I beg your pardon? CHAIRPERSON Why aren't the applicants being called in order then? MR BLACK This order was an order not produced in consultation with us. What has ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON That's beside the point. They are now the order that I ruled, except if they are going to sketch backgrounds. That is the only application made and that was the understanding that I had, that other than that they would be led as they appear in the application. MR BLACK Mr Chairman, I can tell you the name of this witness who we want to call is Mr Israel Hlongwane. He's not an applicant and his evidence will be of a nature of specific acts and not perceptions which were carried out by military trained members of the IFP in Ermelo. CHAIRPERSON Who's the person you want to call? MR BLACK It's Mr Israel Hlongwane. CHAIRPERSON Mr Khaba. MR BLACK Yes, no. CHAIRPERSON Is it the same person? MR BLACK No, no, Mr Chairman. His evidence has a direct bearing on Mr Khaba's evidence and the reason, I've discussed it with a friend, Mr Khaba, you would have noted from his statement, his activities precede the activities which were carried out by Mr Gushu. The applicant Gushu was in fact called into the area in order to try and stabilise the situation. So, as far as Khaba is concerned, his involvement in the activities that were taking place and how he changed sides as it were and became active with the ANC is quite important that his evidence gets first presented and then Gushu's evidence and then the proper order as set out. And Mr Hlongwane, I haven't had an opportunity of having a full consultation with him, but I understand that his evidence as to the activities and his participation in the activities in that area with Mr Khaba is of crucial importance. CHAIRPERSON You know, Mr Black, I'm going to adjourn now till tomorrow. Now, I want to point out that this matter has been postponed on a previous occasion. From what you tell me, you wouldn't have been prepared at that stage? MR BLACK On the previous occasion, Mr Chairman, we were ready to go ahead. We were ready. We were the ones who were opposing the postponement. But Mr Hlongwane ... (intervention) CHAIRPERSON Well, you could have fooled me in the view of what you're applying for now. MR BLACK Well, Mr Hlongwane only came to light during the course of last week, that he was available to testify. CHAIRPERSON There were many days during my practice I used to sit till three o'clock in the morning. We'll adjourn till nine o'clock tomorrow. WITNESS EXCUSED COMMITTEE ADJOURNS