amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-07-28 ERMELO 7 NICOLAS MFUNDISI ZWANE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52732&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98072030_erm_blacat7.htm ON RESUMPTION MR PATEL I call Mr Nicolas Zwane. CHAIRPERSON Mr Zwane, what language do you speak? MR ZWANE I'll render my testimony in Zulu. NICOLAS ZWANE (sworn states) MR PATEL Mr Zwane, where were you born? MR ZWANE In Ermelo. MR PATEL And have you lived your entire life in the Ermelo area? MR ZWANE That is correct. MR PATEL At the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, what was your occupation? MR ZWANE I was a teacher in Ermelo. MR PATEL And what is your present occupation? MR ZWANE I'm still a teacher. MR PATEL At the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, were you a member of any political organisation? MR ZWANE Yes, I was. MR PATEL Could you tell the Committee which organisation were you a member of? MR ZWANE I was a member of the Civic Organisation in Ermelo, which is now called SANCO it's still a Civic Organisation. I was also a member of the ANC. MR PATEL Did you hold - were an officer bearer of any of these organisations? MR ZWANE Yes, within the ANC I was just an ordinary member or supporter and within SANCO I was a Deputy Chairperson. MR PATEL Now you've heard the evidence of Mr Mndebele regarding the Background Statement. Before we get there, there is some discrepancy between the evidence of Mr Mndebele and Mr Mkhwanazi with regard to who went to Mr Chris Hani. What is your recollection of the events, who was it that attended the meeting with Mr Chris Hani in Johannesburg in Shell House? MR ZWANE It was John Mndebele, myself Nicolas Zwane, as well as Silas Nkonyane. MR PATEL Now with regard to the Background Statement that I read and Mr Mndebele confirmed, do you agree with that Background Statement insofar as it relates to you? MR ZWANE Could you repeat your question please? MR PATEL The Background Statement, the one which, if I may direct your attention to, which appears on pages 9 including Exhibit A and A1 up to page 17, 18 sorry, 19. That is the Background Statement I read and Mr Mndebele confirmed. Do you recall being present at that time? MR ZWANE Yes, I do recall I was present. MR PATEL Do you confirm the correctness of that statement insofar as it relates to you? MR ZWANE Yes, I do confirm. MR PATEL In particular, do you confirm paragraph 16 which appears on page 13 of the Background Statement? MR ZWANE Are you referring to this bundle that I have in front of me? MR PATEL Yes. On page 13, paragraph 16. MR ZWANE There are certain numbers written in big letters as well as small letters, could you please assist me in pinpointing the correct paragraph you're referring to? Yes, I do agree with what is contained herein. MR PATEL According to the schedule which appears on page 20 to 22 of the bundle, your name appears under paragraph 3 at the bottom of page 20, is that you? MR ZWANE Yes, that is correct, this is my name although there's a slight spelling mistake but I think this is my name. My name is Nicolas Mfundisi Zwane. There is a spelling error which Mtundisi. They have used a "t" instead of an "f". MR PATEL We apologise for the error. According to the schedule you are claiming amnesty for the murder of Jwi Zwane, do you confirm that? MR ZWANE That is correct. MR PATEL The attempted murder of Happy Mshlongo, a Sibusiso Tito Nkosi and Eric Nkosi, is that correct? MR ZWANE That is true. MR PATEL For the murder of Chris Ngwenya, is that correct? MR ZWANE That is correct. MR PATEL You also claim amnesty for the murder of Lindiwe Nkosi, is that correct? MR ZWANE Yes, that is correct. MR PATEL And you also claim amnesty for the attempted murder of Thembisile Nkambule? MR ZWANE That is correct. MR PATEL And finally you claim amnesty for a general instruction to set up self-defence units who were to illegally arm themselves and to protect themselves in the community from unlawful attacks and at all costs to achieve stability in the area, do you confirm that? MR ZWANE That is correct. MR PATEL Now in your Special Committee you - as we understand the evidence thusfar, Mr Mkhwanazi was to have Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya assassinated, was that the instruction given to Mr Mkhwanazi by your committee? MR ZWANE Could you please repeat the names? Yes, it was Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya. MR PATEL Did you know that Javi Mkhwanazi was to instruct Mr Gushu? MR ZWANE That is correct, I knew that. MR PATEL And did you know Mr Gushu at the time? MR ZWANE Yes, I knew him as a comrade or a fellow comrade. That is about all I know about him or I knew about him at that time. MR PATEL Did you know Chris Ngwenya? MR ZWANE Yes, I did. MR PATEL And did you know Mr Jwi Zwane? MR ZWANE Yes, I did. MR PATEL And did you know which political organisations they belonged to? MR ZWANE Yes, I knew they were IFP members which was working hand in hand with the Black Cats. MR PATEL Yes. Did you know if they held any positions in either the Black Cats or the IFP? MR ZWANE All I knew was that they were Inkatha members but with regard to the Black Cats they were the leaders of the group. MR PATEL As member of the ANC, how did you view people belonged to the IFP and/or the Black Cats? MR ZWANE I viewed them as our opposers as well as people who were against our policies and then with regard to the Black Cats, I think I regarded them as our adversaries as the ANC. MR PATEL And the situation in Westvilleton(?), Ermelo at the time, how did you view that situation? MR ZWANE I could say that there was violence, people were being killed and innocent people were becoming victims of murder. MR PATEL Who according to you and your knowledge was responsible for these acts of violence and murders? MR ZWANE It's the leaders of the Black Cats, that is Jwi Zwane as well as Chris Ngwenya. MR PATEL In issuing out these instructions as part of the Special Committee, did you act out of personal gain, did you act for personal gain or any malice? MR ZWANE No, that is not true. There was absolutely no personal gain or monies but we were protecting ourselves as well as the community within which we lived and the surrounding areas and members of the ANC. MR PATEL Could you tell the Committee what the situation was after the assassination of Mr Jwi Zwane insofar as violence is concerned? MR ZWANE After Jwi Zwane's death I think the violence became even worse and it was clear to us that the members of the Black Cats were now launching revenge attacks but after quite a few days the violence continued as before. MR PATEL In the Background Statement there is talk of mediation between the two factions that existed, did you represent your party, the ANC at these meetings? MR ZWANE Yes, I was part. MR PATEL And who according to your knowledge represented the Black Cats of the IFP member? MR ZWANE With regard to the negotiations with the IFP there would be Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya but there was an instance where some people from Ulundi came. I remember Mr Mhlango was present. I do not remember the rest but many a times when we negotiated with members of the IFP it would be Chris or Jwi. MR PATEL Mr Jwi Zwane, did you know him personally? MR ZWANE Yes, I did know him personally. MR PATEL Do you know if he had a business? MR ZWANE I've never seen Jwi's business. I do not know of its existence. MR PATEL Were you prosecuted, have you been prosecuted for any of the offences for which you claim amnesty? MR ZWANE No, I haven't been prosecuted. MR PATEL Have you got any personal knowledge of any complicity by the South African Police, with regard to their assistance of the Black Cats? MR ZWANE Yes, I do have plenty of information with regard to that. CHAIRPERSON Now you've been asked about personal knowledge. MR ZWANE Personal information. MR PATEL Do you have personal knowledge of South African Police complicity? CHAIRPERSON We don't know here what you heard, not yet anyway. Do you know of police complicity in Black Cats operations that you yourself saw? MR ZWANE Whatever I am going to relate is something that I experienced personally. MR PATEL Would you relate these experiences to the Committee? MR ZWANE During the 1990's as I've already pointed out there was a lot of violence in those areas. We were being attacked and I was also personally attacked, my house was attacked by members of the Black Cats but luckily I was able to escape and evade the attack. The following day I got in touch with members of the ANC who were in higher positions. I went to Johannesburg as well as Nelspruit and when I came back from Nelspruit I went straight to Steve Ngwenya's office here in Ermelo. I received a telephone call that Black Cats had arrived at my place and they were attacking my place. They also had some petrol bombs. I had left my kids but they were not specifically at my house but at the neighbour's place. Now I realised that they were going to attack them because they were just nearby and I decided to go and check as to whether my children were safe or not. At Steve Ngwenya's office there was a certain man who had a car. I asked him to take me and accompany me to my place. We duly went into the residential area. Even before we got to my place we came across a number of policemen who were forming a blockade. They stopped our car and they arrested me there and then and I was taken. Before I was taken, may I please just explain as to who arrested me? I was arrested by van Zwiel as well as Captain Botha. The other policemen were playing a passive role or standing guard for me not to be able to escape. I was taken into a private car. That is where van Zwiel uttered the statement that as long as he is still alive and around in Ermelo we were not going to be able to carry out Mandela's instructions because it was just after Mandela had been released. He said this is not Mandela's place and we were not going to do anything that Mandela wanted. I was arrested and I was put in custody. It was a corrugated iron type of a building. There two policemen who were keeping guard over me. I knew the one policeman but the other one was unknown to me, Mr Dlamini who is now late. I stayed with them from two up to six in the evening. When I was arrested I could see that some houses were being burnt and some were being attacked. As I was still inside the police cell the door was slightly ajar and I saw quite a number of guys or males who had an assortment of weapons and when I looked at them I could identify them as Black Cat members. I asked Dlamini and told them that: "Here are the people who had come to attack me earlier on", and I wanted him to ensure me as to my safety because they had just come in at random and I felt scared, but Mr Dlamini said he could not ensure as to my safety. The only person who can tell me with regard to that is Captain Botha and Captain Botha was not present at that time. They kept on pointing at me and making signs that that evening they were going to kill me, as I'm indicating. That shocked me, that kind of behaviour, that it could go on right inside the police cell. They were quite free within the place. They were busy asking for water, pacing up and down the place. They were quite used to the place. You could see that they were moving around freely. I remained there until round about 10 in the evening and at that time Captain Botha arrived and called me to a place where I was supposed to submit a statement. That is where Captain Botha told me that he was releasing, I should go back home but because I knew that it wasn't safe to be released at that time of the night and I elected to remain in police custody. I even pointed out to him that he could provide me with the safety that I needed. He would release me that following day. I gave him the instruction to keep me but he actually refused. He kept on telling me that I was the instigator of violence in the residential areas but I was scared of dying and he kept on pushing me to get out of the police station but there were two other white policemen who were inside there whose names I do not know. At that stage these policemen took out their name tags and they pushed me outside the police station and they shut the door after me. In my mind it occurred that they probably had sent the Black Cats, they'd set them on me. I tried to run but I realised that I could not outrun them from the police station to my place. My best was to find a place to hide in the meantime. I hope you know where the police station is, it's close to the post office. There were still trees and shrubs at the post office and I went to hide myself in those shrubs. Within a few minutes of my having done so I saw a group of about six or seven who were approaching from the police station. They had an assortment of weapons including pangas. Some of them went around the corner, that is towards the United Building and others went straight down the road. They were running. I realised that if I remained there they might probably get me when they come back. I did have a suspicion that they were actually looking for me. After they had disappeared I went right into the centre of town and I ran towards the Boland Bank, trying to find a place of refuge. I got to the Holiday Inn and took the road that proceeds towards Ermelo next to Pine Spares Stores. There was a shop called: "Into Africa" just a short distance from the Holiday Inn. I had a red jersey on and the area was well lit. When I approached Pine Spares they saw me, that's when they blew their whistles alerting each other to the fact that they had seen me or they were seeing me. INTERPRETER Excuse me, the Interpreter did not hear that. CHAIRPERSON Will you repeat your last answer please. MR ZWANE When I approached Pine Spares, they were next to a certain shop called: "Into Africa" and when I saw them they alerted each other by whistling that I was approaching. That is when I decided that I had to run for my life and I was able to outrun them because I was faster than them and I was able to get into the residential area before they could get me. That incident actually indicated to me that there was complicity as far as police were concerned. The following day I realised that I was the only one who had not been attacked personally because quite a number of my colleagues had been attacked and injured and they were in hospitals. I decided to run away that very same day and I went away for a period of about three months. After John had been, after John had gone out of the hospital I decided to go see him so that we could discuss this issue and report it to the ANC structures. We proceeded - can I go on? MR PATEL I think that that would be sufficient for that particular purpose. Returning now to the offences concerned, could you just explain to the Committee what your motivation was behind committing the offences for which you claim amnesty? MR ZWANE What prompted me to take an active part is that we were not the only ones who got attacked. At a stage we discovered that a number of people, that is community members as well as innocent people were becoming attacked. Members of the ANC were being attacked, the ANC Youth League as well as the SACP and other members of the community who were innocent. I could say that is the basis for what I did. MR PATEL What did you intend to do about these attacks or the violence, what was your intention with regard thereto? MR ZWANE With regard to the attacks launched upon us, we decided that we would get together with our adversaries and discuss the issues so that these attacks on citizens or innocent citizens should stop and life should go on like before. MR PATEL Now we know that according to your evidence that the attempts at negotiations or mediations failed, what then became your purpose in committing the offences for which you claim amnesty? Let me put it to you this way, you've claimed amnesty for a number of murders and attempted murders, is that correct? MR ZWANE That is correct. MR PATEL And the setting up of self-defence units or an instruction to do so, is that correct? MR ZWANE Yes, that is correct. MR PATEL Now these murders and the setting up of the self-defence units, what was the purpose behind them? MR ZWANE I think the main reason was for us to be able to protect ourselves after realising that there was absolutely no way that we could negotiate with our opponents and that the negotiations were not bringing any peace and tranquillity, and upon realising that the police were working hand in hand with the Black Cats, we realised that we had to find a way to protect ourselves and other members of the community. MR PATEL I have no further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL CHAIRPERSON Mr Black, I don't suppose you've got any questions have you? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK There's just one issue which, of information I'd like clarified. Perhaps this witness can, thank you. Mr Zwane, whenever reference is made to the committee making a decision to get rid of, let's put it that way, or eliminate Mr Jwi Zwane, both Mr Mndebele and Mr Mkhwanazi make reference a funeral that was held and shots had been fired into a coffin, were you present at that funeral? MR ZWANE Yes, I was present. MR BLACK Is it possible for you to tell us exactly what happened with regard to the shooting and whether Mr Jwi Zwane or his brother played any role at that shooting? MR ZWANE Yes, I can briefly explain. When we went to the funeral we were small little groups. I was not in the group that was at the front and when the shooting started we got scattered but what I saw at a distance was Jwi Zwane standing in front of the coffin shooting into the coffin and by that time the coffin was on the ground. MR BLACK I have not further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KEMP Thank you Mr Chairman, I will be very brief. This last incident which you've referred to where Mr Jwi Zwane fired shots into the coffin, did you witness this yourself? MR ZWANE I witnessed it personally. MR KEMP And approximately how many shots did he fire? MR ZWANE I will not be able to recall as to how many times he shot but I could see him shooting. I was at a distance and I could see him as I'm indicating, shooting into the coffin. As to how many times I have no clarity. MR KEMP Are you aware that these or this allegation of yours was one of the allegations that was thoroughly investigated by the Goldstone Commission? MR ZWANE I wouldn't know that. MR KEMP I put to you that the Goldstone Commission thoroughly investigated it and that investigation and the reports after that incident indicated that not one single shot had been fired into that coffin. MR ZWANE What I know is what happened, what the Goldstone Commission found out is its own findings. MR KEMP It is apparent Sir, that you are imagining a lot of stuff. MR PATEL Objection Mr Chairman, on what is that based, this imagination? MR KEMP Do you want me to clarify that Mr Commissioner? CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR KEMP Well, there was proper evidence let by numerous witnesses at the Goldstone Commission that at that particular incident there was no damage to the corpse or to the coffin after that incident, so if shots were fired they must have been blanks or imagined. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any comment? MR ZWANE If that is Goldstone's findings, I have no knowledge thereof but I'm telling you about what I saw and I stand by what I saw. MR KEMP If called to reply to any of the allegations that you made, the particular members of the South African Police whom you referred to will deny that they in any way helped or assisted the Black Cats as indicated by you or that any attempt was made on your life with the assistance of any member of the former South African Police. MR ZWANE I will not deny that. It is very clear that nobody would plead guilty to anything. We would all like to plead not guilty and absolve ourselves of any crimes that we have committed, that is what is happening with those police. But they chased me out of the police station and thereafter the Black Cats came out of the very same police station, so you can make your own conclusions. They knew that what they were not doing was not lawful, that is why they would deny it. MR KEMP Mr Chairman, I do not intend to pursue this any further, I don't think it goes to the merits of these applications. I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR KEMP CHAIRPERSON Miss van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Are you going to be long? MS VAN DER WALT No, but it's always a difficult question to answer Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Do you plan on taking some time? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT Sir, I have a problem with your application for amnesty, the one where you have to comply, where you have to receive amnesty from this Committee and that is the official form, page 90. Could you page there? This application form, did you fill it in yourself? It would seem as if you were assisted by an attorney, Mr Radebe, is that correct? MR ZWANE Yes, I was assisted by my attorney. MS VAN DER WALT And in accordance with Section 21 of the Act, you have to comply with the requirements to hand in a proper application. Did you tell the attorney all the facts, did you give him all the facts when you filled in this form? This would be the 1st of May 1997. MR ZWANE What is your question? MS VAN DER WALT Did you give him all the facts as you have testified here today, as to the incidents for which you apply for amnesty? As you have testified today, all the particulars, did you tell the attorney? MR ZWANE I gave my attorney all that was needed in order to complete the form fully and I told myself that whatever additional information I would give when I render my evidence. MS VAN DER WALT So according to this form that was sent to the Amnesty Committee, on page 93 you say that you acted in accordance with instruction, that is question 11(a) and you give all the particulars "Special Committee to deal with violence in Ermelo, ANC Ermelo" Do you see that? MR ZWANE Yes, I do. MS VAN DER WALT Are those the particulars you gave to your attorney? MR ZWANE Yes. MS VAN DER WALT Nothing else? MR ZWANE With regard to what? MS VAN DER WALT Your amnesty application, the incidents for which you apply for amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Did you tell your attorney the whole story? MR ZWANE Yes, I did. CHAIRPERSON Especially insofar as your participation in the whole affair? MR ZWANE Yes, I did. MS VAN DER WALT But that does not appear in your application, that is my problem. MR ZWANE What is it that is not contained in my amnesty application, what is it exactly? MS VAN DER WALT Nothing that you said today. MR PATEL With respect Mr Chairman, my learned friend must be more specific with regard to what is not contained in his form as apposed to his evidence today, more particularly when you look at the form it refers to the Background Statement. MS VAN DER WALT We'll get to that. CHAIRPERSON What are you referring to? MS VAN DER WALT It says here only if the Honourable Committee received this application form because it is clear, and I do not want to pre-empt my cross-examination but what is meant here, what is said here in paragraph (b) says "Background Statement" The documents before this Committee, from that it would seem that the Background Statement did not come with this form, so if this had to be heard in chambers then nothing would have been said because the Background Statement is not annexed to this application form and that is what I wish to ask him because ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Madam, you are well aware that if that document was not attached then the Investigative Teams would have asked the attorney where the statement was which he referred to. MS VAN DER WALT That is correct. I will go further Sir. I wish to put it to you, you mention here, and that is my problem, because with other applications where there was just a word wrong the poor applicant had a hard time. Now I wish to take you to this Background Statement. According to Volume 1, page 9, and in your testimony when it was lead by your legal representative you confirmed that this was the Background Statement, is that correct? MR PATEL That is not correct Mr Chairman. The Background Statement which I put to the witness in his testimony with regard, which covers from page 9 onwards, was put to him on the basis that: "This was what was read to Mr Mndebele, do confirm the correctness thereof insofar as it relates to you"? It's common cause that the Background Statement which accompanied the application form is the one which commences on page 5 of Volume 1. MS VAN DER WALT Sir, can you page to page 5 please? Do you know that statement? MR ZWANE Yes, I do. MS VAN DER WALT Who compiled it? MR ZWANE It was members of the committee including myself assisted by my attorney. MS VAN DER WALT This statement that continues up to page 8, is that the statement? Did you sign it at any stage? MR ZWANE Where is the signature that you are referring to? MS VAN DER WALT No, I'm asking you, did you sign this? MR ZWANE I do believe that the documents that were signed were signed on the day that there was a dispute with regard to signatures. We did not sign at that particular time but we signed at a later stage but we did not read the documents. MS VAN DER WALT Either I'm making a big mistake, and the Chairperson would put me right, this is the first time since your evidence was led that there is reference made to this statement, that is from page 5 onwards. MR PATEL What is the purpose of the question, what is the relevance that it's not been referred to? CHAIRPERSON It wasn't part of his evidence in chief. MR PATEL I never led him on it. CHAIRPERSON Well the question begs the conclusion that it was never part of his evidence in chief. MS VAN DER WALT Sir, if one looks at your application form and you refer to "See Background Statement" Do you refer to this statement that is contained in pages 5 to 8? MR ZWANE Is that a question? MS VAN DER WALT Sir, I will put it to you again. I do not know if you can hear the interpretation very well. I would like to ask you again, if you look at your application on page 92 and 93, question number 9 ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Sorry Madam, before we continue, there are certain applicants who went to a certain attorney and said they would like to apply for amnesty and it seems to me as if there are two Background Statements that were compiled by the attorney and submitted as a broad background of what happened, the one more than the other it seems to me. In all these applications which this attorney dealt with it seems as if they refer to one or both of these statements. Do you agree with me that it seems like that? When I read these pieces I experienced exactly that same problem because I did not know what statement they are referring to. It seems to me as if you've got the same problem but I do not know if we can blame the applicant for that. We can however ask him whether he doesn't know, if he can maybe explain it. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Chairperson, it is correct. I got the impression when I went through the documents, that this statement which is referred to now is a summary by someone and we do not know who. No references are made to Annexure A or B in the statement. The evidence of this applicant was led by an experienced legal person and when he was questioned on this it was confirmed, the evidence, Mr Mndebele's testimony but it when it was led by his applicant it was confirmed ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Let us assume or accept that it is not before this Committee, what regard to his application, whereto then? What is then the point? MS VAN DER WALT That the statement on page 5 is not part of his application, is that what you are saying? CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MS VAN DER WALT Oh, because you see, if that statement is part of his application then I would like to cross-examine him on that because now, and I know we are going to adjourn and he will get the opportunity to go through it because it does differ from the testimony that he just gave, and that is why I wanted to give him the opportunity to tell me that that statement is part of his application, because his legal representative did not do that. CHAIRPERSON Would it not be fair if we adjourn now, ask him to read through it and then we ask him tomorrow morning: "Does that form part of your application or not"? MS VAN DER WALT That would be fair but I do not think that the cross-examination would add onto anything. It is a very long statement and a lot of detail is given. CHAIRPERSON It's just to be fair, he does not know what it says. MS VAN DER WALT Yes. CHAIRPERSON Let him say if it is part of his application or not. MS VAN DER WALT I agree with you. CHAIRPERSON Can we begin at a quarter to nine tomorrow morning? Does anyone have a problem with that? Very well, we then adjourn until a quarter to nine. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION: 29TH JULY 1998 CHAIRPERSON Mr Patel, in so far as it is necessary, would you undertake to report back to Mr Black any controversial issues? MR PATEL I will do so Mr Chairman. NICHOLAS ZWANE (still under oath) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT (continued) Mr Zwane, did you have the opportunity to look at this document from page 5 in Volume 1? MR ZWANE (No translation) MS VAN DER WALT Can you tell the Committee what document this is? MR ZWANE I was supposed to go and read the background from page 5. MS VAN DER WALT Have you seen this document before? MR ZWANE Yes. MS VAN DER WALT When? MR ZWANE It was at the time when we were consulting with our legal representatives. CHAIRPERSON Mr Zwane, does this document form part of your application? MR ZWANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And the other statement on page 9? MR ZWANE Let me start with page 5. CHAIRPERSON No, no, I am just wanting to clear up something first. The document from page 5 to 9, you say you wish to have that incorporated in your application, correct? MR ZWANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON There is a document starting on page 9 and it ends on I think page 14, am I correct? That is a document that is headed Brief Historical Background, that is another document. Do you wish that document also to be incorporated in your application in so far as it effects you? MR ZWANE Yes, this is the same part. CHAIRPERSON And the first document starting on page 5, do you wish to incorporate that into your application in so far as it effects you? MR ZWANE Yes, that is correct. MS VAN DER WALT Sir you say that this document was drawn up when you consulted with your legal representative, and then do you confirm the document, everything as it is here, you worked through it last night? MR ZWANE Yes, I did read it last night. MS VAN DER WALT Very well sir, why in your application for amnesty that starts on page 90, why did you then, why do you apply for amnesty for happenings that occurred in Ermelo only? If you look at page 93, paragraph 11(a)? MR ZWANE I can see that. Would you please repeat the question. MS VAN DER WALT Why do you apply for amnesty only for occurrences in Ermelo? MR ZWANE I would like to explain it as follows, that what appear on page 5 right up to page 9, is what we were discussing as a Committee with the lawyers. In so far as page 93 is concerned, is that I am reporting or stating things that happened within my knowledge here at Ermelo. MS VAN DER WALT What instructions did you give in terms of Piet Retief? MR ZWANE There is no instruction that I issued in so far as that is concerned. MS VAN DER WALT And Mr Mkhwanazi also testified the same, the previous applicant, that he gave no direct instruction to Gushu in Piet Retief. Did you hear that? MR ZWANE Yes, I did hear that. CHAIRPERSON Don't you mean that he gave no direct instruction with regard to Piet Retief? MS VAN DER WALT Do you understand my question? You as a member of the Committee, did you give any instructions with regard to Piet Retief? MR ZWANE None. CHAIRPERSON Did you ever find out that he had ever done anything in Piet Retief that amounted to a crime? MR ZWANE As I have explained that I was concerned about what was happening here at Ermelo and Mkhwanazi was the one who was in charge of things happening in other areas. We were only reported on what was happening here at Ermelo. CHAIRPERSON Did you find out after the event, that Gushu had done something in Piet Retief? MR ZWANE I didn't attempt to get that information. CHAIRPERSON So you didn't have any knowledge of what happened in Piet Retief? MR ZWANE No, I didn't have knowledge. I just knew that there was violence at Piet Retief as well, but I had no idea as to who was in charge of the comrades there. I didn't have all the necessary details. MS VAN DER WALT Why do you then say on page 7, at the top of the page, the assassination of Alfius Msibi was planned in such a way that it appeared at the time to be a robbery, rather than politically motivated? CHAIRPERSON I wonder if we can't find out now if this is one of the incidents regarding him. If you will remember that he said it was part of his application in so far as it regards him. It is not clear from this if this is one of the incidents which he binds himself to. MS VAN DER WALT Mr Chairperson, that is my problem with this application. That is my problem with this document. CHAIRPERSON I understand your problem, but it is so and it is going to take some time, but then we have to find out. MS VAN DER WALT Do you see that aspect concerning Mr Alfius Msibi on page 7? CHAIRPERSON Let's put it this way. You have heard certain testimony tendered thus far in this hearing, regarding an incident related to Mr Msibi in Piet Retief, correct? MR ZWANE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is that one of the incidents for which you think you are responsible? MR ZWANE No, that is not so. MS VAN DER WALT Were you there when this document was drawn up? MR ZWANE Everybody who was effected by the violence, submitted their own points and expressions and the lawyers were the ones who compiled the information. Part of the information here is my own personal expression and not everything here. MS VAN DER WALT Were you not present when Mr Mkhwanazi gave the information to the Attorney? MR ZWANE Which Attorney are you talking about? MS VAN DER WALT The one who drew up this document? MR ZWANE It is as I have stated, that this doesn't mean that we were all together at the time when this document was being drafted. Instead people sent their submissions to the lawyer at different times. I can say that I was not present when the document itself was being drafted or compiled. MS VAN DER WALT I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT . MR PRINSLOO No questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO . CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Mr Zwane, who was the Chairman of this Special Committee? MR ZWANE The Committee was such that there was no Chairperson. It was just a Committee for us to get together around a table and discuss issues. MR HATTINGH When you testified that you were the Deputy Chairperson, to which Committee did you then refer? MR ZWANE I was Deputy Chairperson in the Civic Organisation. MR HATTINGH On page 6 of the Volume, the paragraph in the middle of the page which reads, all decisions to eliminate members of the Black Cats were taken in this Committee. Was that something with which you associated yourself with and in which you also took part? MR ZWANE Yes, that is correct. I supported this at the time and I still concur with the information as it appears in the document. MR HATTINGH Without referring to all the paragraphs, is it correct then to say that the only decisions to eliminate people pertained to Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya and no one else? MR ZWANE Would you please repeat the question. MR HATTINGH The decisions taken at this Special Committee for the elimination of a person, pertained only to Chris Ngwenya and Jwi Zwane and no other person? MR ZWANE Yes, that is correct but the decision that was made was that we at Wesselton had a problem or Ermelo as a whole, we wanted stability. The person who had to carry out this duty was supposed to ensure that we have stability at the end. But then we would not go around killing everybody. It became clear that the people who were problematic were amongst others Jwi Zwane, first of all and after Jwi Zwane, the problem continued and we also discussed Chris, because we realised that he too was equally problematic. That is how he got eliminated. MR HATTINGH To clarify this issue, were there any other name or person on a list of people to be assassinated regarding which a decision was made by your Special Committee? CHAIRPERSON I think what the Advocate is asking, was there any specific decision in regard to any specific person other than the two already mentioned? MR ZWANE Yes, I agree with that. We as a Committee, decided that if there is no stability people should continue working as expected, but ensure that no innocent people got hurt. But we never mentioned specifically any name, we just said they should continue ensuring that there is stability in the community. MR HATTINGH Just to clarify this, you did specifically mention the names of Chris Ngwenya and Jwi Zwane, but apart from those two names, no other names were mentioned, is that correct? MR ZWANE That is correct. MR HATTINGH Apart from these specific instructions from your Committee for the assassination of people, was there another instruction to any of the operatives to proceed and to commit assassinations where necessary? MR ZWANE We had delegated Mr Mkhwanazi to ensure that stability is maintained. I trust that he too passed the message on to his foot soldiers. What I would like to clarify here however, is that the violence never subsided after the death of the two, but then it was no longer clear as to who was taking the lead now in perpetrating this violence. It became clear that Jabu Mkhwanazi should talk to the people with whom he was working, and indicate to them that the violence should be brought to an end. This is one other decision that we took. CHAIRPERSON That instructions to maintain or achieve stability, would that include killing other people? MR ZWANE If it was necessary yes, I would say that is so because we were trying to identify the perpetrator and if the person was perpetrating the violence such that we would not bring him to discussions, there was no alternatives, but to eliminate such a person. MR HATTINGH Would it be correct to say that yourself, John Mndebele and Silos Nkonyane are old residents from this area and that Mkhwanazi was someone new to the area? MR ZWANE That is correct. MR HATTINGH So if anyone would know who the leaders were at the time who were causing all the violence and conflict, it would be you who had been living in this area and not someone new? MR ZWANE That is correct. MR HATTINGH Now, apart from or let me just ask this first, did you know Chris Ngwenya? MR ZWANE Yes, I knew him. MR HATTINGH Did you know Jwi Zwane? MR ZWANE Yes, I knew him as well. MR HATTINGH Is it from your own personal knowledge that you say that they were the trouble makers at the time? MR ZWANE That is correct. MR HATTINGH Now, were there any other particular person who remained a trouble maker after Chris Ngwenya and Jwi Zwane had been assassinated? MR ZWANE I wouldn't say specifically there was one particular person who was problematic, but I can say that the violence continued. We were no longer in the position to identify the one person who was perpetrating this violence. MR HATTINGH Do you know a person called Gozo? MR ZWANE No, I don't know a person called Gozo? MR HATTINGH Did you know Bongani Malinga? MR ZWANE No, I don't know him as well. MR HATTINGH Did you know Obed Nhlabathi? MR ZWANE Let me put it this way, these boys who were here involved in the violence, were very young boys, far much younger than I am. I therefore don't know many of them. I only knew people my age like Jwi and Chris Ngwenya, those are the people that I knew very well. One other person that I knew after some time, was the one boy called Baba. I don't know the others. I started to know the other one very recently, the one person who came and started making noise here at the hall. I didn't know all these younger boys. MR HATTINGH Can we just get confirmation with regard to the last mentioned name, Obed Nhlabathi, you did not know the person at the time, is that correct? MR ZWANE No, I didn't know him. He died without me knowing him. MR HATTINGH And your Committee did not discuss the elimination of any of the three mentioned people at any stage, even though you may not have known them personally? MR ZWANE As I have said that after instructing the SDU's about the elimination of Jwi, no other name was raised, except to say that violence should be brought to an end and stabilise the area. CHAIRPERSON If Gushu had to come tell us that that is so, he did receive instructions in respect of those two particular people, but he committed other murders in pursuance of your other instruction to maintain stability in the area, would you accept that that would fall under the third instruction? MR ZWANE Yes, I would accept that. CHAIRPERSON You say that you only knew of Obed Nhlabathi, you only knew of him after his death, did I understand you correctly? MR ZWANE No. I didn't know him after his death. I said I didn't know him when he died. CHAIRPERSON You only got to know of him after his death? MR ZWANE I didn't know him at all. What I knew is that he died. I have not seen or met him personally. I may have met him, without knowing it was him. CHAIRPERSON But today you know of him? MR ZWANE Yes, I know about his history today. CHAIRPERSON Would his death, would you regard his death as having been caused in terms of that third instruction? MR ZWANE Yes, I would say so. MR HATTINGH Mr Zwane, when did you hear the details and the reasons about the assassination of Obed Nhlabathi? MR ZWANE I didn't get information about the instruction to kill him per se. I only got information that he had died. He was in hospital apparently at the time and there was fear that Black Cats might attack some of our people who were in hospital and the only way to ensure the safety of those people, was to eliminate Obed. I received the news and accepted it. MR HATTINGH Mr Zwane, I would prefer if you would answer the question and not give us the full story and background. When did you hear about the incident of the killing of Obed Nhlabathi, just when, that is all that I want to know. MR ZWANE I never heard about this death. I only heard that he had already died, I don't know anything about the plans. CHAIRPERSON When did you hear that? MR ZWANE I think I heard about it the following day, even though I am not sure of the dates. CHAIRPERSON Will we be correct to say more or less a day or two after the death? MR ZWANE As I have indicated, I am not quite sure how many days thereafter it was. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh, I think that is the closest we are going to get to it. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman, I appreciate that. Who reported back to you about this incident? MR ZWANE (Indistinct) Nkosi told me about this. MR HATTINGH Is this person that you have just mentioned, is he also an applicant at this hearing? MR ZWANE No. The person is not an applicant here and I think the person is also not involved, but that is the person from whom I got the information, who were in the same organisation. MR HATTINGH I would like to refer you to page 7 of the bundle of documents, about one third from the bottom under the heading Robberies. When you annexed this background statement to your application, what was meant by this paragraph a number of robberies were committed? What was the purpose of enclosing that information? Do you take responsibility for the robberies? MR ZWANE No. I am not responsible because I don't know about it. The people who knew about it, included it here. I did indicate earlier on that people make their written submissions to the legal representative and I therefore think that this might have been somebody else's submission. MR HATTINGH Did you or your Committee give instructions for robberies to be committed, armed robberies? CHAIRPERSON Specifically. MR ZWANE Would you please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON Did you or your Committee give specific instructions that robberies could or must be committed? MR ZWANE We did not say that robberies should be committed, but what we said was that everything possible should be done so that the violence should come to an end. The people therefore had to make use of their own discretion as to the acquisition of arms and ammunition. CHAIRPERSON In exercising that discretion, if they committed further crimes, would you say that would be in line with that third instruction? MR ZWANE When they are doing what? Would you please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON If in maintaining this or achieving this stability, further crimes had to be committed, and these crimes were committed in the exercise of the discretion given to an operative, would you say that would fall in line with the instruction, the third instruction given by the Committee? MR ZWANE I can agree with that, that yes, it is in line with it because we never gave them specific instructions as to what to do. We just instructed them that we would be pleased if there was stability at Ermelo. I also think that if I were to explain further, we also indicated that we accepted their manner of operation, accept it and pleased about it, knowing that they were attempting to bring about stability. At the same time being aware that some people might get injured. We knew that many other people might get injured in the process and that was how it really, exactly happened. ADV BOSMAN Mr Zwane, did you foresee that robberies could be committed, did you have robberies and other killings in mind when you spoke about this wide instruction? MR ZWANE Yes, we didn't have money, we did think that they might do things that were not acceptable in the community, but then there was nothing we could do at the time because we had nothing to give them to ensure that stability is brought back and maintained. ADV SANDI Mr Zwane, I think I have heard you saying for more than two times, everything possible had to be done. What did your Committee have in mind by saying everything possible? MR ZWANE We were thinking that there might be a way and means of acquiring firearms so that they could protect the community and what was uppermost in our minds, was that if there were people who had guns, they would get those guns and protect themselves. CHAIRPERSON By fair or foul means? MR ZWANE Yes, that is correct because it was a war situation. There really was no sympathy, we had our sympathy with the people who were being attacked. There were only a few people going around carrying guns and those are basically the guns we were referring to. It didn't matter with us as to how they managed to get hold of the guns. If they managed to get hold of the guns with a smile from the owners, that was okay, but if not, still acceptable. MR HATTINGH Mr Zwane, will it be correct to say that at some stage you and or your Committee became aware of the fact that armed robberies were being committed with the view of financing and arming the SDU's? MR ZWANE Yes, we did hear about that. MR HATTINGH Was it reported to you by any of the operatives? MR ZWANE It was not reported by the operatives, we were not communicating really with the operatives. We only communicated with Mr Mkhwanazi. He is the one who was reporting on all developments, and we would make the necessary approval. MR HATTINGH Who reported back to the Committee about the armed robberies that had been committed? If you could just give us the name? MR ZWANE Jabu Mkhwanazi. MR HATTINGH How many armed robberies did he report to your Committee? MR ZWANE He reported on two armed robberies. He reported on the first armed robbery and after some months, he came back to us to report on another robbery. MR HATTINGH About which two armed robberies did he report to you, if you could just identify them? MR ZWANE The one that happened at Piet Retief, that is the robbery that took place there, and the other one that happened at Secunda. I don't know exactly where but I am told there is a mine or a firm, that is where it took place. MR HATTINGH Was that the incident where Mr De Bruyn got killed? Would that assist you, (indistinct) compound incident? MR ZWANE I would not be in the position to explain really, but I know that a white person died at Secunda and another one got injured. If that is the one that you are talking about, I think, yes. MR HATTINGH Did your Committee then approve of the fact that those robberies had been committed? MR ZWANE Yes, we accepted it because there was no alternative. MR HATTINGH When you discussed the situation with the late Mr Chris Hani during July 1990, did you discuss with him the possibility of armed robberies to be committed? MR ZWANE No. We did not discuss that. MR HATTINGH Did he give any indication in that regard, that it was to be allowed? MR ZWANE No, he did not. MR HATTINGH You - I just want to find the paragraph - you and your Committee acted under the instructions of the ANC command, when you did what you did in this area, is that correct? MR ZWANE I would say yes that is the case, even though there were some instances where we had to make decisions ourselves such as instructing them that they should do everything in their power, in their means to bring about peace and stability. We didn't get that from the ANC, we made that decision ourselves. MR HATTINGH If you could just clarify or tell us more about the command structure that you fell under, who they were and what instructions you in fact got from them and at what time? MR ZWANE There was no structure under which we operated except to say we liaised with Chris Hani. We went to him for the first time asking him to assist us procure firearms. CHAIRPERSON Do I understand you correctly that this Committee whatever form it was made up, was an authority onto itself here in the area of Ermelo, Piet Retief etc? MR ZWANE No. The Committee was based here at Ermelo, concentrating on what was happening here. CHAIRPERSON And it saw itself being entitled to issue orders or not? MR ZWANE Yes, that is correct because of the circumstances here at Ermelo at the time. CHAIRPERSON Explain to me then, if that is so, what was the connection between the Committee and Chris Hani then? Chris Hani being on the (indistinct) of national authority. MR ZWANE Yes, there was connection. That is after we went to him, deliberated with him and he indicated to us that we should go back home and do all in our power to see how we defended ourselves and maintained stability. That is when it became necessary that we set up a Self Defence Unit for this purpose. CHAIRPERSON So he didn't have authority over that Committee? MR ZWANE He did have authority. What I was just trying to explain here is that things such as doing whatever in our power, that was something that we decided ourselves, because we had nothing with which to protect ourselves. The SDU's therefore had it incumbent upon themselves to do everything within their means to defend the community. I am saying here that this is not necessarily something that came from Chris Hani, but the person in charge here was the one who had to make that decision. ADV BOSMAN Mr Hattingh, one moment. Mr Zwane, did I hear you correctly, did you say that you also went to Mr Hani to ask him to give you, to help you with arms, is that right, did I hear you correctly? MR ZWANE Yes, that is correct. Initially we didn't have knowledge, I think it was about 1990 shortly after the unbanning of the ANC, we thought that when we went to ANC, should I say Chris Hani himself being a soldier, he might be in the position to help us with firearms, and he then explained to us that they didn't have arms. Instead we should come up with our own means to protect ourselves. I don't know whether that answer is satisfactory. ADV BOSMAN No, that is what I wanted to clarify, thank you. MR HATTINGH Did Mr Chris Hani imply that you were allowed to commit armed robberies to obtain arms, or did you understand him to imply that? MR ZWANE As I have explained, he never gave us that authority and we never, ever assumed that he was saying that. But because we were frustrated here, that is why we made these decisions. He said we should form the Self Defence Units and protect the people, and we decided that we should do everything at our disposal to protect the people. MR HATTINGH Would you please turn to page 13 of the Bundle, the first paragraph on page 5 of your statement, paragraph 15 on page 13 of the Bundle. The third line it is said that and to put into practice the orders received from the ANC command. To what orders are you referring to in this sentence? MR ZWANE Here we are talking about the setting up of the Self Defence Units. MR HATTINGH Did you receive any further orders from the ANC command apart from that very first instruction from Chris Hani in July 1990? CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh, if he did other than what he has already said, what relevance would that be of? We are busy with certain applications for amnesty in respect of certain issues. He said that the orders he received was to ensure that Self Defence Units were set up. He has already said and this could be the only relevance, that the decisions as to how to maintain and arm these Self Defence Units, was a decision made locally. That is quite relevant to the applications. If he received any other orders, of what relevance would that other orders be to this application? MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I would then not ask this question. I will accept that. To conclude this issue, could you just tell the Committee, did you after the initial instruction from Chris Hani of July 1990, did you report back to Chris Hani or any other command structure in the ANC about what you did during this period 1990 to 1992? MR ZWANE Reporting on what? MR HATTINGH You had received instructions or orders from ANC command. CHAIRPERSON In other words Chris Hani told you to ensure that Self Defence Units were to be set up. The question is did you go back to anybody and specifically perhaps to Chris Hani himself, to give a progress report on how you are going about setting up or complying with these orders? Is that the question Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH That is correct Mr Chairman, thank you. MR ZWANE To answer that question, I would say after having met Chris Hani we came back and set up the Self Defence Units. After which we started liaising with J.J. Mabena, we no longer went back to Chris Hani. But instead we reported whatever was happening to J.J. Mabena because he was at the upper rank. MR HATTINGH And what was J.J. Mabena's position at that time? MR ZWANE He was Chairman of the ANC in the area, also leading COSATU in the region. ADV SANDI Mr Zwane, when you left Mr Hani that is after the meeting that you had with him, was it part of the understanding between yourself and him that you were going to come back to him, that is Mr Hani, to give a report back as to the progress? MR ZWANE I don't quite understand the question, would you please repeat the question. CHAIRPERSON Was he under the impression that you were going to come back to him to give a progress report, that is Chris Hani himself? MR ZWANE No, he didn't say that. CHAIRPERSON As I understand it then, do I understand you correctly then that this whole process was in the hands of the Committee now, they would make decisions and expect the operatives to follow it? MR ZWANE That is correct. MR HATTINGH Did you know Mr Gushu at the time, 1990 to 1992, did you meet him, did you know him? MR ZWANE Mr Gushu came here and became one of the comrades, that is how I knew him. MR HATTINGH Did he attend your Special Committee meetings? MR ZWANE No, he never attended such meetings. MR HATTINGH Just to put matters into perspective, when did Mr Mkhwanazi come onto the scene in these events, approximately when? There were certain developments with regard to the Black Cats and when they were sort of ousted and there were those public meetings to oust them and then the Special Committee formed. When did Mr Mkhwanazi come onto the scene? MR ZWANE When Mr Mkhwanazi arrived here, the Special Committee was already in place. I think it was round about 1991. I am not quite sure of the dates, and he arrived here around 1991. That is if I still remember very well. MR HATTINGH With regard to the instructions from your Special Committee for the assassination of Chris Ngwenya and Jwi Zwane, it would appear from the documentation that the instructions or the decision was made by your Committee and the person was then killed only some extensive time thereafter, at least a month or two months thereafter. Why this delay while the people were known in this area, you knew where they were living? Why not were they immediately executed? CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh, can this witness answer that, and didn't we get an explanation whether we accept it or not is another matter, from the person who committed the crime? MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, my submission would be that this Committee had a very real interest in having their orders executed, and if there was such an inordinate delay, perhaps the witness can assist us by telling ... CHAIRPERSON ... they made enquiries and said well, maybe ... MR HATTINGH Mr Zwane, could you just assist the Committee. Your Special Committee made decisions for the assassination of two people, Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya, but it would appear that there were in both instances, an extensive delay in the execution of your orders. Did you make enquiries about the delay? I mean at the time there was a tremendous fighting and conflict, your orders were not executed immediately. Did you make enquiries? MR ZWANE No, we did not because we had not discussed the time factor. We didn't say to them that they should kill him before the end of the week or the end of the month. We just indicated to them that such and such a person is problematic and therefore must be eliminated. It was up to them how long it took them to carry out the instruction. MR HATTINGH Okay, then the second last issue I would like to deal with is the annexures to the second statement, that is Annexure A and A1 which you will find on pages 15 to 19. Did you assist in the compilation of this Annexure A and A1? MR ZWANE Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Would it be correct to say that you do not know the details of any other incidents which you can now remember and which you can add to this list? MR ZWANE No, I cannot add, not now. Maybe if I was given time to go back and read through this again, maybe I will be in a position to remember other things. MR HATTINGH But at the time that this list was compiled and where you assisted, even at that time you could not remember any further incidents? MR ZWANE Yes, there are some other things that I could not remember, but I think I can be of help here, such as saying for example yesterday, we also remembered that there is one incident that was not included here, the death or the killing of Themba. I have just forgotten his surname, and he used to be called Abe as well. He died and on looking at this, I realised that his name does not appear here. The arrival of Inkatha, driving in a bus where a number of people were killed, these are some of the things. There are many other incidents that were not included here, not because we didn't want to but because we couldn't remember them at the time. MR HATTINGH The incident where you allege Zwane fired several shots at the coffin and or the body of the person at a particular funeral, will it be correct to say that that incident sort of sparked off the decision that Jwi Zwane was to be assassinated? MR ZWANE That is not correct. That is not the one incident that sparked off or inspired the decision for his assassination. MR HATTINGH Lastly I would like to put to you per instructions of the families and the next of kin of victims, that Jwi Zwane did not take part and he was not the person causing all the trouble in this area, and that there was no need for him to be assassinated. MR ZWANE I don't know whether you are asking me or just stating? MR HATTINGH I am stating. CHAIRPERSON He is stating it and we are inviting a comment if you want to. MR ZWANE What you are saying is not correct. As far as I know, Jwi Zwane was the one who was in the middle of this conflict. For example before his death, there were people, many of them, who were found dead and mutilated. Their body parts were missing and later on we discovered that Jwi Zwane was the leader of the Black Cats. I am also of the opinion that those who are going to testify after me, will bear me out on this one. After his death, as an indication that he was leader of the boys, the boys got angry and the violence escalated. Thereafter the leadership position was taken over by Chris Ngwenya. After the death of Chris Ngwenya the same patter followed, violence exacerbated and subsided thereafter. After their deaths, violence did not die completely. Violence continued, albeit on a lower scale until this whole thing came to an end around 1994. MR HATTINGH Mr Zwane, I would further like to put it to you on instructions, that the brother of Jwi Zwane, Elias Zwane had a business which was in competition with Mr John Mndebele, that Jwi Zwane was working with his brother in his brother's business, and that that was the reason why Jwi Zwane was eliminated, because of a personal thing between Mr John Mndebele and the Zwane family? Would you care to comment? MR ZWANE Let me start by saying that I do not agree with your allegation that there was bad blood between the Zwane's and the Mndebele's. I am also a Zwane. What I can say here is that Jwi Zwane never had a business, I heard yesterday that he once owned a business. He actually never owned a business. It was also indicated here that he worked for his brother. I cannot deny that, but at the time of the violence, he was not working for his brother. I also explained here before this Committee yesterday, that I met Jwi Zwane at the Police station where he used to spend most of his time. There was also a time when the Black Cats left the township and they came to stay in town. MR HATTINGH Okay, I would further wish to put it to you that Chris Ngwenya, there was no reason for him to be assassinated, apart from the fact that there was also a personal problem between Chris Ngwenya and Mr John Mndebele which came to a head on that Saturday, the day before Chris was killed, when John Mndebele laid a charge with the Police against Mr Chris Ngwenya? MR ZWANE I know not of any information about a charge being laid by Mr Mndebele against Chris. What we did was to come together and tried to identify any remaining problem and make the necessary decision. I therefore cannot comment on what John Mndebele did in so far as the laying of the charge is concerned. He never told us anything to that effect. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma, do you have any questions? MR MAPOMA Thank you sir, no questions. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA . CHAIRPERSON Mr Patel, have you got any re-examination? None? ADV BOSMAN Mr Zwane, you mentioned that you are also a Zwane. Were you related to Jwi Zwane in any manner? MR ZWANE No, we are not related, we just have the same surnames. In our culture it turns, we do refer to each other as relatives, but not in the true sense of the word. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. ADV SANDI Mr Zwane, before all this problems started, what did you know to have been the occupation of Jwi Zwane? MR ZWANE I have never known him to work. I have known him to be working at any stage whatsoever. Ever since I knew him, he was not working. ADV SANDI And what was the occupation of Chris Ngwenya in your knowledge before the problems started? MR ZWANE Chris Ngwenya was a student at that time, but when the violence started, he got involved in the violence and stopped schooling so he was not employed. CHAIRPERSON Mr Zwane, while you may not have been a relative of the deceased Jwi Zwane, did you belong to the same clan? MR ZWANE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON You in that context, you say that you never knew Jwi Zwane to be employed or operating a business of any sort. MR ZWANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You say also that you did not know whether his brother Elias had a business? MR ZWANE Elias Zwane does have a business, it was only Jwi who did not have a business. CHAIRPERSON I see. Now would you know because of your clan connections, whether Jwi would be working for his brother or not? How can you say he didn't? MR ZWANE You would get Jwi at any place, even before the violence, he would come and visit me and at no stage did he mention that he was working. CHAIRPERSON I accept that, but at the time of his death, is it not possible that he was working for his brother? MR PATEL Mr Chairman, with respect, the applicant said the following about the employment. As Mr Chairman correctly points out, he talks about the clan connection, he says he heard this yesterday. He said that it was also alleged and indicated that he was working for his brother and then he said, I cannot dispute that, so in so far as the working for his brother is concerned, his evidence has been that he cannot dispute that. CHAIRPERSON So it is possible that he did work for his brother at the time? MR ZWANE I wouldn't say whether he was working for his brother or not, but as a relative I would talk with him from time to time, but at no stage did he ever mention that he was going to work, so I cannot deny nor admit that he was working for his brother. CHAIRPERSON Now, you know the strife this country had to put up with, even till today, is unacceptable. There seems to be some forces in this country that are bent on retaining that set of circumstances. It is further heartbreaking to note that even families and clans are broken up by this. That in itself is unacceptable. Is there no way that the traditions of clans and families can be restored in this area? MR ZWANE I don't think I understand you. Could you just rephrase your question and be a bit brief? CHAIRPERSON Yes, is there no way people can come together and live the way they should, in this area? This community in particular the black community, has been torn apart, tragically I think. MR ZWANE I don't think there is a way forward for us through negotiations, not unless the very same elements who were involved in tearing apart the fabric of the society, still gets involved in continuing to do the very same thing. I think we will be able to sit down and negotiate, especially after these hearings. I think I would be able to explain to members of the community as to why I did those things and how I did them and ask for their forgiveness so that I could go back into the community that I originated from, so that they could also forgive me for my deeds because the decisions that I took were very difficult decisions, but under the circumstances, I had no other option but to act in the manner that I did. We have lost Jwi whom I regard as my brother. I can just point out that that was a painful decision for me to take, it doesn't bring me joy in any way, even today as an individual and I don't think the community is impressed with all that has happened. CHAIRPERSON You see, it is all very well to say we need to negotiate. Maybe negotiations is a stepping stone, starting point but families, clans, communities are not based on agreements that are negotiated. All these years in our country, the existence of communities are based on respect for human integrity. Do you see any chance of reaching that stage, maybe initially by negotiations, but proceeding beyond that? We can't be living with each other based on an agreement, it doesn't work like that. MR ZWANE The life that we lived before is divided into two. We lived peacefully before and thereafter there was violence. Now I would be very grateful if the Commission or the Committee would assist the community in trying to re-establish the ties that we once had as members of the clan, as well as members of the community who are now victims and families of victims. I think we can re-establish the ties. I do hope that everybody now realises that there is nothing that we achieved from fighting and from the violence, that took place. We cannot continue fighting in the manner that we did before and I believe that that is going to start with us as individual members of the community, victims in different ways, to start talking and start committing ourselves to peace. It is only then that we can achieve peace. I think that the idea I have with regard to peace, because even if the violence would start once more, those who decide to fight, will fight, but at the end of the day we are left holding the shorter end of the stick, because we end up being victims or we end up being a society of victims and we end up having a generation of victims. It becomes a very vicious cycle, so I think we do need help as individuals, as a society, as a group, we do need help or some intervention from outer forces in order to assist us to achieve this. CHAIRPERSON And you say you are happy, you really want to go through that process? MR ZWANE Yes, I think I am very committed to the process of reconciliation, because that was the idea in the very first place, to negotiate and achieve peace without having to use arms to fight, but our efforts proved futile, but I think now we have experienced a lot of pain and we do not want to go back to that situation that we experienced before. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. You are excused. MR ZWANE I would like to take this opportunity and address the victims and the families of the victims. On my part, I do regret ... CHAIRPERSON Will you speak loud enough for them to hear. MR ZWANE To the families of the victims, I would like to say that I am deeply sorry for the part that I played in killing people. That was not our intention that people should die, but it was to maintain peace and stability in Ermelo. I am very much aware of the consequences of our actions. I do ask for their forgiveness from the depth of my heart. But what I would like to point out is that today there is relative calm and peace in Ermelo and I hope that the people do appreciate the peace and calm that we have, even though we are from a past of violence. I request that as from today, we will look at each other as elements of human nature, and we should respect the sanctity of life and bring peace in our own community. I thank you very much. WITNESS EXCUSED