amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-07-29 ERMELO 8 PELELE L. SHONGWE BLACK CATS https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52737&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98072030_erm_blacat8.htm MR PATEL May it please you Mr Chairman, I beg leave to call Mr Shongwe. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shongwe, which language would you prefer to use? MR SHONGWE I will testify in Zulu. PELELE L. SHONGWE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL Mr Shongwe, where were you born? MR SHONGWE I was born in Ermelo. MR PATEL And have you lived for most of your live in the Ermelo area? MR SHONGWE Yes, that is correct. MR PATEL At the time that you committed the acts for which you claim amnesty, what was your occupation? MR SHONGWE I was not employed. MR PATEL What is your occupation at present? MR SHONGWE I am under the South African Defence Force. MR PATEL At the time that you committed the acts for which you claim amnesty, did you belong to any political organisation? MR SHONGWE Could you repeat your question please? MR PATEL At the time that you committed the acts for which you are claiming amnesty, did you belong to any political organisation? MR SHONGWE Yes, that is correct. I was a member of the ANC. MR PATEL According to the schedule on page 21 of Volume 1, you are claiming amnesty for firstly the murder of Bongani Malinga. MR SHONGWE Could you please repeat the reference. MR PATEL Page 21 on the right top corner there is a number, paragraph 6.6 and your name is there. MR SHONGWE Yes, I can see that. MR PATEL You claim amnesty for firstly the murder of Bongani Malinga on 22 October 1993 and you also claim amnesty for the murder of Ernest Malele on 15 February 1993 and you claim amnesty for the attempted murder of an unknown black male on 15 February 1993. You claim amnesty for illegal possession of firearms and ammunition and finally for the theft of a firearm and ammunition. Do you confirm that? MR SHONGWE Yes, that is correct. With regard to the murder of Ernest Malele as well as the other unknown black male, there is a mistake - that happened during 1994 and not 1993 as recorded. CHAIRPERSON Which one is this? MR PATEL Numbers 2 and 3. CHAIRPERSON 2 and 3? MR PATEL That is correct. It ought to be 1994. We have had evidence from previous applicants who have identified you as a member of a Self Defence Unit, do you confirm that? MR SHONGWE Yes, that is correct. MR PATEL Let's examine each offence individually. The first murder, that is of Bongani Malinga. Who was he? Did he belong to any political organisation? MR SHONGWE Bongani Malinga was a member of the Black Cats as well as a member of the IFP. MR PATEL Was there any specific order from a higher command that he should be killed? MR SHONGWE Yes, there was an instruction that we should form Self Defence Units and we should do everything in our power or in our discretion in order to arm ourselves and as the members of the Self Defence Unit, we knew the Black Cat members very well and Bongani was one of the people who played a very important role in killing SACP/COSATU and ANC members, as well as members of the community. The instruction that we got was for us to try and quell the violence, so it was up to us to look and see as to who was causing problems. If he did not want to partake in the negotiations. MR PATEL Could you briefly describe how his murder took place? MR SHONGWE I was from my place, that is where the Black Cats are staying, in the same area, at Extension. As I was going out, I saw Bongani Malinga together with Bongi Mkhwanazi, they were from Bongi Mkhwanazi's place. I ran to him and I shot him. I think it was about three houses that could be approximately ten metres away from me. I shot him in the leg and he fell onto the ground. I proceeded to him or towards him. I think I shot him about three times in the ribs and when I was closer to him, I shot him at close range. The firearm was loaded with 15 bullets and I ran off from the scene and I think I shot him about 11 times, because I was left with only four bullets. MR PATEL Yes. Were you alone on that day or were you accompanied by anybody? MR SHONGWE I was with Livingstone, but I left him in my yard or in the house when I went out, that is when I saw this person and I proceeded towards this person all by myself. MR PATEL Okay. The murder of Ernest Malele and this unknown male on 15 February 1994, where did that take place? MR SHONGWE That happened in White River, the main town is White River but the area is called Gogogeo. MR PATEL Do you know whether Ernest Malele and this unknown person belonged to any political organisation? MR SHONGWE I think I have to explain briefly as to how I got to know this, or how I got hold of this information. I don't know if I am permitted to do that. MR PATEL Yes, please do. MR SHONGWE When I realised that my life was in danger in Ermelo, I fled to Nelspruit and I hid at a safe house, that is an ANC safe house. As I was still there, Ernest Malele came, I was with a certain person named Pat but whose surname I do not remember. He said he was looking for his briefcase which contained documents of the National Party or his National Party documents, and we said that we did not know anything about the briefcase, and he asked me as to my identity and where I was coming from. Pat knew this guy very well and he said he was coming back and it was going to be very clear when he came back, as to where I was coming from. When he went out, I asked Pat as to who these guys are and he said I should be very careful of them, because they were National Party people. At about seven or eight o'clock in the evening, I heard a knock at the door and when I opened the door, they showed themselves at the door. I thought that probably they had come to either kill me or attack me and when they left, I had taken my gun earlier on and when I opened the door, they made gestures as if they were taking their guns from their holsters or from their waists. That is when I started shooting. Ernest died on the spot, but the other one did not die on the spot. When we searched them, we got some pangas from their bodies and I indicated that we should put them back into the car in which they arrived and we drove the car. Because I did not know the area, and there was a river somewhere, somehow, I was not able to go through or go passed it, we took the documents which were inside the car and we burnt the car. I am the one who started burning the car. That is when the rain started and it actually extinguished the flames in which the car was engulfed. CHAIRPERSON So, what is the reason you killed Ernest and attempted to kill the other person? MR SHONGWE It is because Pat had already told me that they were members of the National Party which I regarded as the enemy of the ANC and it was clear that they had come to kill me, so I killed them in self defence. They had pointed out at an earlier stage that they were going to sort me out when they came back. MR PATEL The illegal possession of firearms and ammunition, and the theft of the firearm and the ammunition, could you just explain to the Committee how you came to be in possession of it? MR SHONGWE I would like to explain the reason why I wanted to own a gun. I was a member of the SDU and the instruction that had been issued was that we should arm ourselves in whichever way. One day I came across a drunk Policeman and I robbed him of his gun with the sole aim that I should protect the organisations that fell within the ANC and the community at large. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, are you presently serving a sentence? MR SHONGWE No. MR PATEL As a member of the ANC, how did you view members of the National Party, the IFP and the Black Cats? MR SHONGWE At the time members of the Black Cats, the IFP and the National Party were perceived as the enemies of the ANC. MR PATEL In committing any of these offences for which you claim amnesty, were you motivated by personal malice or gain? MR SHONGWE No, that is not correct. MR PATEL And in respect of these offences for which you claim amnesty, have you been prosecuted? MR SHONGWE Yes, I was arrested for the same offences. MR PATEL Which offences were you arrested for? MR SHONGWE I was arrested for killing Bongani Malinga, Ernest Malele and the attempted murder of this other National Party member who was in the company of Ernest Malele and to be found in possession of unlicensed firearm and ammunition. MR PATEL What happened with regard to the charge of murder of Bongani Malinga? MR SHONGWE When I arrived in court, I was granted bail and thereafter I went for the trail in Bethal and the Judge said there wasn't enough evidence, I should go home. I also attended a trial for the Malele case, I was granted a bail and it was also indicated that there wasn't enough evidence to prosecute me and I came back for an inquest and I indicated that I knew nothing, and it was said that I should go home. MR PATEL The person you mentioned that was with you in White River, Pat whose surname is unknown, do you know where he is today? CHAIRPERSON Mr Patel, tell me why is this application then made? I don't follow why it is being made. He is not at risk for prosecution? Indeed in one of the matters he has been at risk and acquitted? MR PATEL Mr Chairman, as I understood the position to be and you must bear with me, I took over these matters at a late stage, these things had been done already but as I understood in so far as Bongani Malinga was concerned, there wasn't an acquittal. It appeared to me to be more a withdrawal of a charge. In so far as Ernest Malele is concerned, also a discharge after an inquest, it still leaves you at risk as far as I can recall. CHAIRPERSON I am not too sure that you are correct, but I suppose we are three quarters through his evidence, you might as well continue with it. Carry on. MR PATEL As it pleases you Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL . CHAIRPERSON What has happened to the fifth count of theft of a firearm and ammunition? MR SHONGWE As I have explained, I came across a drunk Police person and I robbed him of his firearm. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR SHONGWE It is because I wanted to defend the ANC members as well as the community. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kemp, have you got any questions? MR KEMP I have no questions, Mr Chairman. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KEMP . CHAIRPERSON Mrs Van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS VAN DER WALT CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo? MR PRINSLOO No questions, thank you. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PRINSLOO . CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh? You are earning your keep? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Mr Shongwe, with regard to Bongani Malinga, this incident occurred on the 22nd of October 1993, is that correct? MR SHONGWE That is correct. MR HATTINGH We have already heard evidence from one of the previous applicants that by 1993 things had calmed down to a fair extent, that there was no more fighting in Ermelo? MR SHONGWE I would say the situation had not changed here. I am one of the people who reside at Extension where the Black Cats were located. I was not in the position to stay at home because the situation was still the same. Whoever says the situation was better, I want to say before this Commission, that is a mistake. MR HATTINGH I am not going to take it any further, apart from saying it is one of your co-applicants who said so. However, on that day when you killed Bongani, you said that he was together with another person, could you just repeat the name of the other person? MR SHONGWE Would you please repeat the question. MR HATTINGH On the day that you killed Bongani Malinga, he was with another person. What is the name of the other person? MR SHONGWE He was with Bongi Mkhwanazi, a member of the Black Cats. MR HATTINGH All that happened in that incident was that you left your home, you ran towards Bongani Malinga and you shot him? MR SHONGWE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR SHONGWE He was a danger to members of the ANC Youth League as well as the community, such that in the instructions that we received, the instruction was such that we should identify dangerous people. I saw him as a dangerous person because we could not communicate with him, instead he was harming members of the ANC as well as the community. CHAIRPERSON Yes? MR HATTINGH You considered him a dangerous person because of what he did to other members of the community? Was that the only reason? MR SHONGWE Apart from that, he did not want peace and we could not talk to him, he didn't want organisations to operate freely. For example, he didn't want ANC members to go and canvass for support at the Extension. It was difficult to communicate with, he didn't have peace. MR HATTINGH Mr Shongwe, I would like to give you a further opportunity. Were there any other reasons why you ran out of your house, ran towards Bongani and killed him, apart from the ones that you have now mentioned? MR SHONGWE Would you please repeat, I do not understand you? MR HATTINGH I say I would like to give you a further opportunity of telling this Committee your reasons why you killed Bongani Malinga, apart from what you have already mentioned. MR SHONGWE I would like to expand on this one. I don't know whether that is permissible. MR HATTINGH Please. MR SHONGWE I reside at Extension, we grew up together with the same Black Cat members. If a person wanted to continue residing at the area, a person had to join the Black Cats - I refused. And I decided to leave the area, I went away to stay wherever. I was trying all my level best to communicate and talk to these people. Many members who went to join the ANC, did that as a result of my effort trying to talk to them. Instead he refused, he threatened to kill me and destroy the ANC, saying that Inkatha would be the final stamp here. I realised and took him to be a dangerous person in the township. Our aim was to make sure that there was stability. These are some of the reasons that led me to killing him, he was stubborn and full of violence such that these other Black Cat members would after I have recruited them, I would actually ask them how they were doing things and tried to retrieve information about certain individuals within the Black Cats and they indicated to me how dangerous he was. I realised that he was going to harm the community even further, that is why I decided that such a person should die. MR HATTINGH Now your application form which we find on page 144 up to page 149 or 150, if you could just turn to those pages. MR SHONGWE Which page, which area should I look for? MR HATTINGH Who completed this application form? MR SHONGWE On page 134, this has to do with the murder of Obed and this doesn't involve me. MR HATTINGH Turn to page 144. Is this your application form? MR SHONGWE Yes, that is my application. MR HATTINGH Who completed this form? MR SHONGWE I did this myself, but I was being assisted by the people who were in my company because I do not know English quite well, that is why they were assisting me. MR HATTINGH Who were those people in your company? MR SHONGWE These are some of the people who are here, applying for amnesty. MR HATTINGH In your supplementary statement which we find from page 151 and further, in particular on page 152. MR SHONGWE On which page? MR HATTINGH In your supplementary statement which we find on page 151 and further and in particular on page 152, under paragraph (c)(4), it is stated that the background statement submitted with my application, and expanded upon in the document headed Brief Historical Background, do those other two documents in fact form part of your application? MR SHONGWE Would you please refer me to something really tangible on this page, I do not understand what you are talking about. MR HATTINGH Do you understand or are you able to read English? MR SHONGWE As I have indicated, I don't know English quite well, yes, I do try. CHAIRPERSON Listen, it seems your Attorneys in their wisdom drafted two documents relating to the history of these applications and the incidents for which these applications are made. Do you understand? MR SHONGWE Yes, I understand. CHAIRPERSON In your form of application, one or both of these documents have been referred to. Do you understand that? MR SHONGWE Yes, I do understand now. CHAIRPERSON All that the Advocate is asking or let me ask you this before that, do you know what the contents of these two documents are? MR SHONGWE No. Perhaps if you could give me a chance so that I could peruse through this. I wouldn't say I know it, maybe I do, but then I would be in a position to say once given a chance to peruse through this document. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh, does anything much turn on this issue or do we need him to read it? MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, not so much on the background statement as the two statements from pages 5 to I believe approximately page 20, the two statements. Not much turn on that, but I think we should get some clarity as to what comprises his application for amnesty. At this stage it would appear that we have ... CHAIRPERSON If he is given an opportunity to read it now and he comes to tell us, then we know. I see it is quarter past four now and I am trying to finish this witness, hence I ask if anything, a big issue turns on this. If you tell me yes, then I would have to give him a chance to read it. If it is just a mundane question, not relating to anything major, then maybe you can tell me. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, no, I believe we can carry on without having him necessarily have to read those other two documents. I think my next question would then perhaps show whether we need to allow him the ... CHAIRPERSON Let's see then. MR HATTINGH Mr Shongwe, the document that we find on page 151, 152, 153 and 154, have you seen this document before? MR SHONGWE As I have explained, I would like to be granted an opportunity to look through this document, after which I will be in the position to say whether I know it or not. CHAIRPERSON Did he sign this Mr Patel? MR PATEL That is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON How long ago did he sign it? MR PATEL I am under correction, it might have been Tuesday or Wednesday last week. CHAIRPERSON Last week. Mr Shongwe, you signed a document because your Attorney came to show you this document maybe Tuesday or Wednesday last week, do you remember? MR SHONGWE Yes, I do remember. CHAIRPERSON It was a supplementary statement to your application? Do you recall? MR SHONGWE Yes, I do remember Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON And you signed it? MR SHONGWE Yes. CHAIRPERSON That is the document the Advocate is talking about. MR SHONGWE As I have explained, the manner in which we signed it was in a haste, and therefore I didn't have a chance to read through it. My lawyer made me sign this, he didn't give me a chance to look through the document, because we were in a hurry. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I would prefer that we finish with this witness today, but perhaps it would be necessary for him just to confirm at least the supplementary statement, that he understands the contents thereof. I did not foresee that we would run into a problem of this kind at this late stage. CHAIRPERSON In the statement that you signed, you say that the offences, acts and omissions in respect of which I claim amnesty, are detailed in the document headed Schedule Detailing Offences for which Amnesty is Claimed. You have already confirmed that, I can't see that being a problem. MR SHONGWE Yes. CHAIRPERSON Then it goes on to the circumstances and events giving rise to such offences are detailed in the background statement submitted with my application and expanded upon in the document headed Brief Historical Background. Those are the two documents you find on page 5 to page 20. Do you understand that? MR SHONGWE Yes, I do understand. CHAIRPERSON Is that what concerns you Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH That is correct Mr Chairman. I think all that I would like to know is if in his own mind, he wants to make pages 5 to 20 part of his application or not. At this stage it would appear he doesn't know about the other documents. CHAIRPERSON Okay, I am going to make it as easy as possible for him. It depends on what questions flow out of it, then maybe you must give him an opportunity to read it then. Mr Shongwe, these two documents have been drafted by the Attorney with the help of this broad Committee that we have been speaking about all the time. In so far as these two documents relate to you, is it your intention to have it part of your application, because that is what your supplementary application says? MR SHONGWE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON There you have the answer Mr Hattingh. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, if that is the position, then I suppose we should allow him the opportunity of having a look at those papers, those documents which he would like to make part of his application? I am not going to be very much longer with this witness, this applicant, so if we leave it until tomorrow, we can within ... CHAIRPERSON Carry on, that is why I asked you what is the point that you are leading up to, I am not too sure what it is. Is it going to make a big impact or don't you know yet? MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, perhaps I should just carry on and see where we are going to. Mr Shongwe, you completed the original application form yourself, correct? MR SHONGWE Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH In your own handwriting? MR SHONGWE No, that is not correct. I didn't use my own handwriting. I was talking and my lawyer was doing the writing. MR HATTINGH Were you given the opportunity of reading the application form and making sure that everything was correct before signing it? MR SHONGWE As I have explained that I signed this document here in a haste. I don't know whether you are talking about a different statement, apart from this one. I do not follow you now. MR HATTINGH I am referring to page 149 - on page 6 of the application form, where we find a signature. Perhaps you can just tell us whether it is your signature. MR SHONGWE Yes, that is my signature. MR HATTINGH Now if you have a look at page 150, that is page 7 of your application form, it would appear that this document was signed and confirmed on - sometime in May 1997 before a Commissioner of Oaths, a certain Radebe, in Rooihuiskraal? MR SHONGWE As far as I see, when we finished discussing this with our lawyers at our offices, it became necessary that we have somebody to conduct the oath. We couldn't find him. I don't know this Radebe. My lawyer therefore then went looking for this Radebe for the signature. MR HATTINGH So you were not present, you never saw Mr Radebe and you did not sign this application form before a Commissioner of Oaths? MR SHONGWE I don't know Mr Radebe. I think that maybe my lawyers were trying to facilitate my application, because I am not here most of the time, I am at the Army. MR HATTINGH Be that as it may, when you signed the document on page 6 thereof, were you given the opportunity of reading through the document making sure that the contents thereof was correct before you signed it? MR SHONGWE Would you please repeat the page? MR HATTINGH It is in bold black numbering, it is on page 149. You find your signature at the bottom of the page. All I am asking you is, at the time when you put your signature there, when you signed the document, were you given the opportunity of reading your application form to make sure that everything that was noted on the application form, was in fact correct? MR SHONGWE Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH And have you once again, when this hearing started and before giving evidence, once again gone through your application form to familiarise and refresh your memory? MR SHONGWE No. MR HATTINGH I have asked you to give the reasons why you killed Bongani Malinga and despite giving you full opportunity to do so, you never mentioned anything about Bongani attacking you personally, you or your house. Is that correct? MR SHONGWE No, that is not correct. I think I have already given you the explanation. As I have earlier on indicated that Bongani Malinga was a problem to my organisation and the community, having played a very prominent role in the Black Cats. I went as far as explaining that these other members of the Black Cats that I recruited into my organisation, explained to me how dangerous some of the people within the Black Cats were. Therefore they indicated to me what training Bongani had undergone at Mkuzi. He is stubborn and they indicated how dangerous he can be to the community. I think I did explain that, not knowing whether you still remember it or not. MR HATTINGH No, I agree with you, you did explain that. But still you never mentioned that Bongani at any stage attacked you or your house. CHAIRPERSON As a reason why he assassinated him? MR HATTINGH That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did he assassinate him because he was personally attacked? MR HATTINGH Sorry Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON Did he do so because he was attacked or what? MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, at this stage I would like to find out what his reasons were because the reasons that he ... CHAIRPERSON But you have asked him what his reasons were and he gave you the reasons, whether we believe it or not, that is another matter. But you put to him that he didn't mention the fact that he was attacked of a number of occasions by a group which included the deceased, as a reason why he eventually assassinated him. I don't know if that is quite correct. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I would then just put to this witness and ask him to explain why on page 147 in his application form, he wrote whatever he wrote there, or was noted there on his behalf. If you turn to page 147, paragraph (b) in this application form you were asked for your justification regarding the acts that you committed. CHAIRPERSON And then you describe how on a few occasions you were attacked by members of the IFP which included the deceased Malinga, and you go and you describe how you were stabbed in four places on your body and in your hand and in your lip. On the fourth occasion when he and his group attacked you, you shot him. MR SHONGWE That is one of the things that I said, but I think there might be something that my Attorney also added, but what I remember is that I was not under attack on the day that I shot Bongani. MR HATTINGH And on page 148, middle of the page, paragraph 11(a) you said I acted to protect myself. It would appear that that is also not correct because you did not act to protect yourself, you in fact attacked Bongani? MR SHONGWE If you look carefully here, there is an instance where I did indicate that I was protecting and defending myself as well as the ANC structures. MR HATTINGH Show that to us then. MR PATEL If Mr Hattingh would just read paragraph 11(a) in its entirety, he will see it. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I do not quite understand the reason for Mr Patel answering the question. The applicant answered and I asked him to show me where. I do not find that strange for me to ask him to show me where and what he would like to point out to me. CHAIRPERSON Can you point it out? MR SHONGWE Yes, there is an instance here where I have indicated that I was protecting myself. I would like to clarify something here before this Commission, I am not well conversant in English. I think I have said everything that I wanted to say at the time when this form was being filled. Maybe my lawyer may have added something up so that this could be better understood. I also indicated how I killed Bongani. He didn't attack me. I am the one who went charging on him. I don't know why Mr Hattingh should concentrate on this. CHAIRPERSON It is according to your application, one of the possibilities exist that you killed him because he attacked you and when he was attacking you for the fourth time. Now that is not what you have told us in your evidence, that you left your home, you ran after him and you shot him 11 times. Do you understand the problem? MR SHONGWE I do understand. CHAIRPERSON That is what Mr Hattingh is dealing with. MR SHONGWE I think there is some area here where I indicated that I was still going to explain. Some of the people who were attacking me, are still alive. If I was paying a revenge, really I would have done so to all these other people who were attacking me. These other people who are still alive today, were communicable and I could talk to them. Not Bongani, he was dangerous to the community, that is why I decided to kill him. I didn't attack him because he was always among the people who were attacking me, no. MR HATTINGH Is it possible for you to point out which parts or which sentences in your application form is incorrect and which was added by your Attorney without your knowledge? CHAIRPERSON That will involve the assistance of an Interpreter. If you assist, then we have to adjourn and let him do that. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I have no intention of delaying proceedings, but really I think it is important that we need to know what his application consists of. I think, it is already half past four and we are going to finish with him within minutes tomorrow morning, just to clarify this last issue. CHAIRPERSON No, we will finish with him tonight. MR HATTINGH Okay, I appreciate that. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shongwe, you are going to have to ask an Interpreter to assist you in answering that question. I am going to adjourn for ten minutes and hopefully by then you would be able to give the answer. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS PELELE L. SHONGWE (still under oath) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH (continued) ... tell us what part of the contents of this application is not correct and which was added by your Attorney without your knowledge? MR SHONGWE That is where reference is made to an 3.8 mm Plattes and the area where I was attacked on the day when I shot Bongani. I do not concur with this. MR HATTINGH Sorry, if we can start with page 144, just 144 - the first page of your application, is there anything that was not correct on that page? MR SHONGWE Everything is correct on this page. MR HATTINGH If you turn to page 145, would you please indicate what part of that page is perhaps not correct? MR SHONGWE That is where reference is made to the 3.8 mm as well as the name Plattes. MR HATTINGH Sorry, if you could just indicate what paragraph is that, I can't find it. MR SHONGWE That is at the bottom of page 145, (iv). MR HATTINGH So it is only reference to the 3.8 that was incorrect? CHAIRPERSON (Microphone not on) MR SHONGWE Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Well, on this page, if you could just read under (iv) where the heading is Nature and Particulars, the second line thereof is with 9 mm and then what follows there, I can't read that? CHAIRPERSON (Microphone not on) MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. Then on page 146, anything that was incorrect there? MR SHONGWE I concur with the contents here of. MR HATTINGH Page 147, if you can start from the top and indicate exactly which sentences are incorrect. MR SHONGWE I concur with this page, should I say except where it is said he and his colleague. Let me perhaps start here where it is said on the fourth occasion, he and his group attacked me and I shot him. I do not concur with this. MR HATTINGH Only that one sentence? MR SHONGWE Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH And on page 148? MR SHONGWE I concur with that page as well? MR HATTINGH Page 149? MR SHONGWE Yes, I concur with this page as well. MR HATTINGH The signature that we see at the bottom of page 150, the name P.L.J. Shongwe, that is not your signature? MR SHONGWE I am the one who signed here. MR HATTINGH When? MR SHONGWE I do not remember the date, but I remember that I was with my Attorney Julie Mohammed and another black person whom I do not know. MR HATTINGH But that was not in the presence of Mr Radebe? MR SHONGWE As I have stated, I was with my Attorney and another black person whom I do not know. I won't know whether the person was Radebe or not. I didn't know him. ADV SANDI Sorry Mr Hattingh, this black person you say you did not know, did you see him touching the forms and maybe writing anything on the forms? MR SHONGWE Yes, because he was in the company of Julie Mohammed. ADV SANDI What was he doing, what did he do with the forms or on the forms? MR SHONGWE He had ball pens and he took the form as we were sitting down. I think he must be the one who signed here under the Commissioner of Oath column, but yes, he did take the form. MS VAN DER WALT Maybe I can help you here, were you at Rooihuiskraal on that day in the presence of your Attorney and the other black gentleman? Do you know where Rooihuiskraal in Pretoria is? MR SHONGWE Is it Hammanskraal? ADV BOSMAN No, Rooihuiskraal. Were you in Pretoria the day when you were with your Attorney and the other black gentleman? MR SHONGWE We went to Pretoria after having signed or after having concluded the filling of this form. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh, why is this such a big issue? If it was wrongly attested, so what? MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, that I will leave with you. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR HATTINGH Mr Shongwe, if we turn back to page 147, I repeatedly asked you what the problems were that you were experiencing with Bongani Malinga ... CHAIRPERSON Before you carry on, Mr Shongwe, that signature on page 149, is that yours above the word deponent? MR SHONGWE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON And do you confirm that before us now that that is your signature and that you signed it? MR SHONGWE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR HATTINGH I repeatedly asked you to tell this Committee what the problems were that you were having with Bongani Malinga, which led to your killing him. At no stage did you mention anything about four separate attacks by Black Cat groups of which he formed part of, on either you or your home. Why, why did you elect not to mention anything of that kind? MR SHONGWE Here I was explaining how I killed him. I was not explaining about my attack or my being attacked and the attack on my family. Given a chance, I would explain that, but now I was still explaining how I killed him. MR HATTINGH The fact that Bongani or that you were stabbed on four places during these attacks, that Bongani himself stabbed you in the hand, and on your lip on the fourth occasion, or just on your lip, not on the fourth occasion? Was that also something which did not come into play in your reasons for killing Bongani? MR SHONGWE I did explain earlier on that at the time when I was being attacked, there were others who were still alive and who are still alive. If I had killed him for attacking me, I would have killed the others who are still alive today. I went as far as explaining that these others were present when I was being attacked, are people which animosity existed between me and them, is over. MR HATTINGH I put it to you in terms of my instructions received from the family, the mother of the deceased, that Bongani Malinga during 1993 at least, did not pose any threat to either the community or yourself or the political stability of the area. MR SHONGWE I disagree with that. MR HATTINGH And on the day that he was killed by you, he was on his way to the shops and there was absolutely no reason for you to kill him. MR SHONGWE I also disagree with that, because I killed him at our street, there is no shop on that street. MR HATTINGH On page 148 at the bottom, it is stated that you were prosecuted with Bongani Khaba. To which incident does that refer? MR SHONGWE What page? MR HATTINGH Page 148. CHAIRPERSON For which case did you go to court and you were acquitted? Mr Shongwe, carry on. MR SHONGWE On the very same offence, Bongani Khaba and myself took the witness stand, and it was indicated that we were not guilty, we should step down. CHAIRPERSON Yes, was that the Malinga matter, when Malinga was the deceased? MR SHONGWE Are you referring to Bongani, I do not quite understand, will you please repeat. CHAIRPERSON Yes, the case in which you took the stand and you were finally acquitted, was that in respect of Bongani Malinga's death? MR SHONGWE Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Were you prosecuted with Bongani Khaba for that case? MR SHONGWE As I have explained before, we took the witness stand and it was indicated that this case did not have sufficient evidence and therefore we should go home. Nobody asked me any question, be it the Magistrate or the Prosecutor, no question was directed to me. MR HATTINGH At that criminal trial, on the charge of murder of one Bongani Malinga, did you take the oath to testify? MR SHONGWE No. CHAIRPERSON Maybe, I think it is Section 176 of the Criminal Procedure Act, isn't it, 174 the acquittal after the State's case. I don't know where that is getting us to, whether he testified in the matter or not? MR HATTINGH Mr Shongwe, I just further wish to put it to you that the person Bongi Mkhwanazi who was with Bongani Malinga on the day that you killed Bongani Malinga, was to testify at the criminal trial, but he too was murdered on the day before the commencement of the criminal trial. Do you know anything about that? MR SHONGWE Is that a comment or a question? MR PATEL Mr Chairman, I ... CHAIRPERSON Wait, wait, I am going to have to warn him. Mr Shongwe, that is a matter that may, the answer which may incriminate you. You are not compelled to answer that question - if you don't feel like answering that question, you don't have to. Do you understand? MR SHONGWE Yes, I do understand. CHAIRPERSON Because that witness that is referred to as having been killed, it is not a matter that is being discussed in this hearing. Understand? MR SHONGWE Yes, I do understand Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What is your choice? MR SHONGWE I would prefer that Mr Hattingh ask me about the death of Bongani Malinga. I don't know anything about the death of the other one. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH . CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Thank you sir. Mr Shongwe, why did you kill Ernest Malele? MR SHONGWE The manner in which he spoke to me when he left during the day, seemed dangerous to me. When they came back later on, at the time when they knocked at the door, they seemed as if they had guns at their hands. Guns, which were put through the half open door, or slightly open door. I shot first because I thought I was defending myself. MR MAPOMA Now that self defence of yours, did it further the aims and objective of your organisation in a way? MR SHONGWE Would you please repeat? CHAIRPERSON When you defended yourself in shooting these people, were you acting with any political motive or were you just defending yourself? MR SHONGWE I think political motives are also part of it, because at the time the National Party was the enemy of the ANC, such that the very same person at the time when he left that day, he said we ANC members will shit. We will see what is going to happen when we get back. CHAIRPERSON Did he not come to that house where you were, he would not have died, is that not so? MR SHONGWE I think so yes because he too must have come to me with the intention of fighting me. First of all the house that I was using, was regarded as a safe house of the ANC, so that any National Party member who crossed the grounds or the premises, may not have come there with a good intention. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Thank you Mr Chairperson. Thank you sir, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA . CHAIRPERSON Mr Black, have you got any questions? MR BLACK Mr Chairman, there is no questions. I just want for the sake of clarity on page 148 where it is referred that Mr Bongani Khaba was prosecuted. My instructions are that he was never a co-accused with this particular applicant, that he wasn't prosecuted in respect of any of these counts. What happened in fact was that Mr Khaba did appear in court on that day, but it was for the purposes of sentence in respect of the other matter, but it wasn't as if he was being charged, prosecuted, no. That is all. NO CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK . CHAIRPERSON Mr Patel, have you got any re-examination? MR PATEL None, Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL . CHAIRPERSON Francis? ADV SANDI Mr Shongwe, just one or two questions from me. Before this Mr Ernest Malele came to this house where you were hiding, did Pat or Patrick whoever the name of the gentleman may be, did he have any conversation with you about the political situation in this town which you referred to as White River? MR SHONGWE We used to discuss politics, myself and Pat, such that when these people left, I asked him who these people were and he indicated to me that these are National Party members, and this person can be very dangerous, I know him. I am living around here with him, he doesn't like ANC people. ADV SANDI Did he say there were any incidents between members of the National Party and the ANC, that is before these two gentlemen came? MR SHONGWE Would you please repeat the question. ADV SANDI Did he say there were any incidents between the National Party and the ANC before Mr Ernest Malele came to this house, what did he say was happening, if he said anything? MR SHONGWE I think I do remember slightly that he indicated that there is one ANC organiser who was in conflict with the National Party people, who was not allowed to canvass freely, but then he didn't indicate to me who that National Party person was. He just indicated that one ANC organiser had a problem with the National Party members in one of the areas. ADV SANDI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Shongwe, you said that you have made friends with the victims or the next of kin of the victims, you get on well with them now? MR SHONGWE Yes, I can say that. Such that I also asked one of them to take me to Bongani Malinga's mother so that I could talk to her. CHAIRPERSON Have you done so? MR SHONGWE I tried that, but Mangete refused, he said I should not talk to these people because they are under his control. CHAIRPERSON Are you still wanting to do so? MR SHONGWE Yes, I will be very pleased if such a thing can happen. CHAIRPERSON Why didn't you try some other method of going to talk to them? Some other broker if you want? MR SHONGWE I have already identified a person who could broker on this issue, Mtuzi from the IFP. I spoke to him and he willingly indicated that he can do that. CHAIRPERSON Is that all you have done in four years now? MR SHONGWE May the Chairperson please repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON Is that all you have done to make friends in this last four years? MR SHONGWE I am not here most of the time, I reside in Johannesburg, that is where I work. I only come back here on Saturdays and go back on Sundays, therefore I don't have enough time to meet these people. I was also afraid to go to Bongani's place all by myself, because they might say something different the following day. I only had an opportunity now that I have come here for the TRC, that is when I spoke to Mtuzi from the IFP and he willingly indicated that he can broker on the issue. Now I haven't had a chance to talk to these people. Yesterday I went to talk to my lawyer and never had a chance, I think that seeing that I might be finishing today, I will have an opportunity tomorrow to see Bongani's parents, maybe shortly after this gathering here today. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you are excused. We will adjourn till quarter to ... MR SHONGWE I would like to say something. I would request that our parents here in the community and we people who took part in the violence in the community, must assist one another so that we could talk together. We should continue and avoid the conflict because that conflict led to many of us not having any chance, not getting a chance to go to school. If this persists, our children will not have the opportunity to go to school. I would like to apologise to everybody who was wronged by my deeds, and I am inviting others who come before this Commission, to do the same. Right now, I am working for the South African National Defence Force. I am looking and dealing with all nationalities, IFP, ANC and everybody else to ensure that everybody is safe. A special reference to the families of the deceased, it was not our intention really, it was the political circumstances, the atmosphere that prevailed. Forgiveness would be appropriate. I would like to apologise, may they please forgive me and accept my apology. I would like for us to communicate as we used to. We grew up together with these Black Cat boys, they were unfortunately misled by people such as Jwi and Chris, people who were older than them, but after having realised the mistake, we note that this should not happen again. Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON We will adjourn till quarter to nine tomorrow. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS