amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-07-30 ERMELO 9 DAWID ELVIS MAJOLA https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52738&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98072030_erm_blacat9.htm MR PATEL I think before calling the next applicant maybe if I could deal with the application of Mr J.J. Mabena who is applicant number 8 before this Committee. CHAIRPERSON If you could just give us load down before you do so. Have you worked out the possible anomaly of applying for a blanket amnesty as opposed to certain issues? MR PATEL Yes, what my instructions are is to apply for a postponement of his matter on the following basis - that's if I can just outline to the Committee that Mr Mndebele's application was included in this lot simply because although involvement in the Ermelo situation was somewhat peripheral, it was simply to give a broader, fuller disclosure of all events despite the fact that he might have been peripherally involved. As I understand the situation with regard to the blanket amnesty, I understand that a number of the higher people, the people higher up in the ANC have applied for sort of blanket amnesties and that at one stage the Amnesty Committee did in fact grant such an application. That was I presume some sort of review took place by the Commission itself and it was set aside and those applications still have to be considered. CHAIRPERSON On the basis of course that it's going to be specific acts. How that's going to happen I think is going to be a novel issue, I don't know how they're going to do it. It's all very well saying that the act doesn't make provision for a blanket amnesty but frankly I think cognisance must be given to the fact that while approval must have been given for certain acts, a lot of discretion is given to the operatives and approved of afterwards maybe or whatever but that scene has to play itself out still, I don't know how that's going to work and that's why I said I don't readily agree with that decision myself but I thought that we needed to raise it because there would obviously be arguments against it at the end of the day. Maybe a postponement is the appropriate thing to do although I don't know how this whole problem is going to be solved but I leave that in your hands or whoever is going to do it. MR PATEL You see as you correctly point out Mr Chairman, that scene has to be played out. Mr Mabena falls directly into that category of people. In the result his application should properly be dealt with when those people's applications are dealt with and how they solve it ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Let them do that, you may be involved in it I don't know but maybe you're right, maybe this application must be lumped to that one there. MR PATEL That would be our submission and we would submit that there's not prejudice to any of the parties here. If any of them are effected by what he's going to say they will obviously be notified and they can be present to oppose the application in due course. CHAIRPERSON Mr Patel, what we're prepared to do is to postpone that particular application. We will certainly from the panel's side indicate to those who set up the records and who are charged with lumping different matters together to include this one in any similar application that has still going to be heard. I think it would be prudent also if you would, on your brief cover maybe, indicate to your attorney that he or she should also liaise with the TRC head office in respect of this matter. Remind them what we're doing now and not to allow them to forget that when those high profiled people's application is heard that Mr Mabena's must be included. I think you must pay particular attention to the fact that it may cost a bit of more money, he may have to go to Cape Town or wherever. Such a high profile thing I don't think it's going to be heard in a place like Ermelo but I think that goes with the territory I suppose, it can't be helped. Are there any objections to the postponement of that matter? MR PATEL No objections. CHAIRPERSON That particular application is then postponed c.n.a.d.a for it to be rerolled in the appropriate manner. MR PATEL As the Committee pleases. The next applicant that we wish to call to the stand is Mr David Elvis Majola. Whilst he's on his way may I say that it appears that part of a statement which formed part and parcel of his application form was not included in the bundle. I'm advised by Mr Mapoma that that statement has now been made available to everybody including the Committee. Just for the sake of completeness I think it's probably best to number those two pages as 157(a) and 157(b) which is the way it would fit in, into the Volume, the first bundle. MR MAPOMA Mr Chairman, maybe I have to explain the circumstances pertaining to this particular statement. In fact this statement was handed in by the applicant together with the application form and was inadvertently omitted to be part of the bundle, this particular bundle but in the previous bundle when the matter got postponed this statement was part of that bundle. So for all practical purposes therefore Chairperson, this statement is part of the bundle. CHAIRPERSON I don't suppose anybody else has any objections to the inclusion of it? Yes it will be included as pages 1, 5, 7 (a) and (b). Mr Majola, what language would you prefer to use? MR MAJOLA Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Very well. DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL Mr Majola where were you born? MR MAJOLA Springs. MR PATEL And at what age did you come to Ermelo? MR MAJOLA I was two years old. ADV SANDI Are you able to hear Mr Patel? Can you hear? MR PATEL I'm not getting the translation. ADV SANDI My experience has taught me that one has to avoid putting the documents on top of these things otherwise it throws the volume away. INTERPRETER Can you hear me now? MR PATEL In terms of the schedule that has been prepared and which appears on page 21 of the bundle you claim amnesty for firstly the murder of Mrs Zini Shongwe in 1991, is that correct? MR MAJOLA That is correct. MR PATEL You also claim amnesty for the murder of Carlton Maseko in 1991, is that correct? MR MAJOLA That is correct. MR PATEL And you claim amnesty for the attempted murder of an unknown black male also in 1991, is that correct? MR MAJOLA That is correct. MR PATEL Now at the time of the commission of these three offences were you a member of any political party? MR MAJOLA That is correct. MR PATEL Which political party did you belong to at that stage? MR MAJOLA Would you please repeat the question? MR PATEL At the time in 1991 which political party did you belong to? MR MAJOLA I was in the IFP. MR PATEL Were you also a member of the gang called the Black Cats? MR MAJOLA That is correct. MR PATEL In terms of the schedule you also claim amnesty for the attempted murder and damage to property in that you threw two hand grenades in the direction of members of the South African Police and the Black Cats gang. Do you confirm that? MR MAJOLA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON When would that have happened? When would you have hurled those two hand grenades at the members of the Black Cats and the SAP? MR MAJOLA I think it was 1993 if I still remember very well. CHAIRPERSON When did you change allegiance? MR MAJOLA In 1992. MR PATEL You also claim amnesty for the attempted murder and damage to property when the next applicant still to come, Mr Gitam Mnisi threw a hand grenade in the direction of members of the South African Police is that correct? MR MAJOLA That is correct. MR PATEL And finally you claim amnesty for the illegal possession of two hand grenades? MR MAJOLA That is correct. MR PATEL Now in relation to these offences relating to the hand grenades, at that time were you a member of a political party? MR MAJOLA Yes. MR PATEL And which political party did you belong to at that stage? MR MAJOLA I was member of the ANC. MR PATEL Let's deal with each offence separately. Firstly the murder of Mrs Zini Shongwe in 1991. Could you explain to the Committee the circumstances in which this incident took place? MR MAJOLA I was working at a shop in the township and when I went to Chris Ngwenya's parents' place I learnt that they had a meeting with Mr Mkhwanazi in which they said Bobolina should be sought and killed. Sugar, myself and China and others then left. MR PATEL Do you know the full names of Sugar and China? MR MAJOLA Sugar's full names I really cannot remember. I only also know China to be the other name, I don't know any other. MR PATEL Very well. Continue. MR MAJOLA We went to Bobolina's parent's place. We didn't get into the house, we stood outside and China knocked at the door. China and Sugar then got into the house and it appeared as if there was a woman with whom they were talking inside the house and as we were waiting Sugar came out to say he didn't find Bobolina but instead his mother and they said he too should be killed. He went back and we heard two gunshots being fired, a hand grenade followed and that's when we fled going back to Chris's parents' place. CHAIRPERSON Tell me are you serving sentence for all these matters? MR MAJOLA No. I was not even arrested. CHAIRPERSON Now when you went back into that house you say it was said that she - she was the deceased Mrs Shongwe - had to be killed. Did you agree with that? MR MAJOLA Yes we all agreed that she should be killed. MR PATEL In perpetrating this offence had you been ordered by anybody to go to the house and commit this offence? MR MAJOLA Yes. MR PATEL Who gave the orders? CHAIRPERSON Which offence were you ordered to go commit? MR MAJOLA The Zini Shongwe incident. CHAIRPERSON Weren't you ordered to kill her son or husband? The son, ja. MR MAJOLA Yes that was the instruction. CHAIRPERSON The instruction never mentioned her not so? You didn't go to the house to kill her. That's what you told us. MR MAJOLA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Then why did you kill her? MR MAJOLA We killed her because we couldn't find Bobolina and therefore we just had to kill the mother. CHAIRPERSON How did that effect the politics those days, how was that politically motivated, now you tell me? MR MAJOLA Zini's mother was also a member of the ANC. CHAIRPERSON And so? MR MAJOLA And she too had to be killed? CHAIRPERSON Why? MR MAJOLA We agreed as we were standing outside that she too should be killed because she was an enemy. CHAIRPERSON Yes carry on. MR PATEL As it pleases you Mr Chairman. You went to Mrs Zini's Shongwe's house on the instruction of somebody, is that correct? MR MAJOLA That is correct. MR PATEL Who was it that gave the instruction? MR MAJOLA It was Ntobo Gazi. MR PATEL Alright, the second offense, the murder of Carlton Maseko, could you explain to the Committee how this particular incident took place? MR MAJOLA We actually were on our rounds looking for Happy who had been beaten up another Happy who was an IFP member and Chris Ngwenya instructed us to go and look for Happy. We then went to Moola and somewhere in the middle of the street we came across two boys. One of us said these are some of them and we turned around the boys flat. MR PATEL By some of them, what was meant? MR MAJOLA There were two of them. MR PATEL Yes but who were they identified as being part of? MR MAJOLA They were member of the ANC. MR PATEL Yes okay, carry on. MR MAJOLA They ran away and one of them fell whilst the other one continued fleeing and others who were in my company remain behind and we could not get hold of the one that we were chasing. We came back and as we were walking back we came across Mkhwanzai and Estiba and this other one was already lying down. CHAIRPERSON Tell me, why did you regard the - to be a member of the ANC at that time as an enemy? MR MAJOLA Would you please repeat the question? CHAIRPERSON Why did you regard a member of the ANC, any member as an enemy? MR MAJOLA I don't quite understand. CHAIRPERSON You say that you killed Shongwe. You said you regarded Mrs Shongwe as an enemy because she was a member of the ANC and therefore she was killed. You say you were looking for another person named Happy because he was a member of the ANC, you couldn't find him, you chased somebody else and Carlton Maseko died. Now I'm just trying to find out why you regarded members of the ANC as enemies at that time when you were a Black Cat? MR MAJOLA Yes they were enemies, they were our enemies. CHAIRPERSON Why do you say so? What did they do to become the enemy at that time? What did they do so that you had to regard them as enemies? In other words why were they regarded as enemies that needed to be killed? MR MAJOLA If a person was not a member of the IFP he would obviously fall in the category of people that had to be harassed, that's how I can put it. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR MAJOLA Because they are not members of our organisation. CHAIRPERSON Was that the reasoning at the time? MR MAJOLA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Now when you changed allegiance, became a member of the ANC, did you have the same attitude towards members of Inkatha that they were now the enemy? MR MAJOLA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Why? What did they do? MR MAJOLA I don't understand Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON What don't you understand? MR MAJOLA I don't get you quite well. CHAIRPERSON Is it something to do with the mechanics of the communication apparatus or what? MR MAJOLA I don't understand the question. CHAIRPERSON What don't you understand? What of the question don't you understand? MR MAJOLA I don't quite understand what you're trying to say perhaps you could explain. CHAIRPERSON When you changed, when you became a member of the ANC you say members of Inkatha then became your enemy. Is that correct? Then you started harassing members of Inkatha, correct? MR MAJOLA Members of the IFP also harassed and intimidated me when I defected. They troubled me quite a lot and they would chase me on my way home and they also broke windows at my home. CHAIRPERSON So did that mean any member of Inkatha was then an enemy or only certain members? MR MAJOLA They were enemies to me. CHAIRPERSON All of them? MR MAJOLA Yes. CHAIRPERSON Why? MR MAJOLA It's because they were harassing me as well. CHAIRPERSON Only certain members were harassing you, not so? MR MAJOLA All of them except for women. CHAIRPERSON So women weren't your enemies even though the belonged to the IFP? MR MAJOLA I had no problem with the women, they too had no problem with me. CHAIRPERSON Fortunate. Did you really know what it meant to be a member of any political party? Did you know the implications of it? MR MAJOLA I didn't know. CHAIRPERSON Do you know today what the implications are of being a member of any political party? MR MAJOLA I would say if a person is a member, a person is a member. CHAIRPERSON Does that mean if you're not a member of your party then you're an enemy? MR MAJOLA No he's not an enemy? CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Patel. ADV BOSMAN Mr Patel can I just ask one question? What is your level of education Mr Shongwe, how far did you get at school? MR MAJOLA I never went to school. ADV BOSMAN Thank you. ADV SANDI Zini Shongwe was a woman, why was she killed? You said IFP women were not your enemies involved with things. MR MAJOLA They were enemies. We were paying revenge because Bobolina was not there. CHAIRPERSON Mr Majola, this document marked 157(a) and (b), did you write it? MR MAJOLA 157? CHAIRPERSON You know that statement you wrote or said that you wrote, it was part of your application? Did you write that out? MR MAJOLA No. CHAIRPERSON Is that your statement? MR MAJOLA Yes it's my statement but I did not write it. CHAIRPERSON Did somebody else record it for you when you told them what to write? MR MAJOLA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Carry on Mr Patel. MR PATEL Who wrote out this statement for you? MR MAJOLA By Gita Mnisi. MR PATEL Alright, returning now back to Carlton Maseko and the unknown black man. As I understood your evidence you gave chase of the unknown black male but he eluded your attempts to catch him, is that correct? MR MAJOLA Yes that is correct. MR PATEL And what happened then? You returned and found Mr Maseko? MR MAJOLA That is correct. MR PATEL Now in respect of this killing and the attempted killing were you armed in any way? MR MAJOLA Yes I had a panga. MR PATEL And in respect of these offences were you acting under any orders? MR MAJOLA Yes I did get an order from Chris. MR PATEL And could you tell the Committee what the orders were? MR MAJOLA Chris said we should go and look for Happy and we should destroy anything that is ANC along the way. MR PATEL Yes alright, the next offence, attempted murder and damage to property: two hand grenades thrown in the direction of the South African Police and the Black Cats. Could you explain to the Committee the circumstance in which this incident took place? MR MAJOLA We were at Gita Mnisi's place. Gita went to answer a telephone and he came to me and told me that Black Cats were moving towards a certain direction to attack at a certain night vigil that was held that night. We went to another friend of ours by the name of Basil Dhlamini who stayed at Everest and we got some hand grenades there, about four of them and I took two. We went down the street and Gita Mnisi broke the street light so that it could be dark and when we got to the shops we saw the Black Cats as well as the police. We went towards the beer garden and we went into some yards trying to hide ourselves. That's when we saw the Black Cats as well as the police at a certain corner. We threw the hand grenades towards their direction. The one hit the centre. I threw the first one and I waited for quite a while and tried to observe their reaction and I threw the second one which hit a billboard. That is what I did. MR PATEL Did Mr Mnisi throw any hand grenades at that time? MR MAJOLA I think he threw one. MR PATEL What was the motive or what was the purpose for throwing these hand grenades? MR MAJOLA The reason why we did that was that we were trying to protect the members of the ANC who were attending a night vigil as well as members of the community who were attending the night vigil. MR PATEL Were you acting under any orders in committing this offence? MR MAJOLA As members of the STU's we took it upon ourselves to protect members of the ANC as well as members of the community so that they couldn't proceed to the night vigil to kill people or attack people. MR PATEL Yes. The next offence, that is the attempted murder and damage to property when Mr Mnisi threw a hand grenade at the South African Police. When did this take place? MR MAJOLA Can you repeat your question? MR PATEL There's a further offence for which you claim amnesty, it's again attempted murder and damage to property when Mr Gita Mnisi threw a hand grenade at the South African Police. When did this occur? MR MAJOLA It was at night. CHAIRPERSON Have you got a date for us? MR MAJOLA It was on a Saturday. MR PATEL Do you know what month it was? MR MAJOLA I think it was during 1993. MR PATEL And the month was it January? CHAIRPERSON I think 1993 is good enough Mr Patel. MR PATEL As it pleases you Mr Chairman. The second hand grenade when was that thrown, how long after you had thrown two hand grenades and Mr Mnisi only one? MR MAJOLA I think it was towards dawn if I remember well. MR PATEL And you were with him when he threw his second hand grenade? MR MAJOLA Yes I was with him. MR PATEL As a member of the Black Cats, who was your leader, who was the head of the Black Cats? MR MAJOLA It was Jwi Zwane and Chris Ngwenya. MR PATEL Now in the commission of the offences for which -in the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, were you motivated by any personal malice or gain? MR MAJOLA No there was no personal gain for me. CHAIRPERSON What do categorise as revenge Mr Patel? MR PATEL I beg your pardon Mr Chairman? CHAIRPERSON How would you categorise revenge? MR PATEL I don't think revenge is mutually exclusive from a political objective. CHAIRPERSON It surely can't be argued that if a murder is committed because of revenge or irritation that it could fall within the ambit of the Act. He went there to kill the son of the deceased. He didn't find the son. Merely because she was a member of the ANC and as he says at an irritation of not finding the person they had targeted, they killed the mother. Does this fall within the ambit of the Act? MR PATEL It will be my submission at the end of the day that it does fall within the ambit of the Act given. The type of instruction that had been issued out to these Black Cat members. CHAIRPERSON What if the instruction is not based on a political motive? MR PATEL Well then to some extent then this particular applicant could rely on the fact that he was a "sort of a foot soldier" and following orders from those in authority above him. CHAIRPERSON Still the order must be - find it's foundations within the political spectrum not so and in that absence does it matter whether he acted on an order or not? I ask the question because you asked him if all these offences that he committed was done with a political motive. I'm not talking about matters two, three, four, five and six. The Shongwe murder I refer to specifically and I asked the question and you say you'll make submissions on it. I'll accept that. MR PATEL But you were not motivated by any personal malice or gain you say? MR MAJOLA No I wasn't motivated by any personal malice. CHAIRPERSON Didn't you kill Mrs Shongwe out of malice? MR MAJOLA No I did not kill her out of malice. CHAIRPERSON Didn't you kill her because you were cross that you didn't find her son? MR MAJOLA I was standing next the windows. The person who went inside was Sugar as well as China and they are the ones who shot. CHAIRPERSON Look Mr Majola, you told me you agreed with it. Everybody agreed with it. Didn't you agree to it - with it -because you were cross that you people didn't find her son? Not so? You went there to kill her son, you didn't find him, got angry and decided to kill her. Correct? MR MAJOLA That was not from me but from the people that I was with. CHAIRPERSON So you didn't agree with her being killed? MR MAJOLA I did agree with it because there was nothing I could do. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Patel? MR PATEL As a member of the Black Cats gang did you have any general instructions to commence with? CHAIRPERSON Yes he did, he said so. He says he had general instructions to destroy everything that was ANC. What it meant or how he interpreted it is another matter. MR PATEL As it pleases the Committee. Did you undergo any military training? MR MAJOLA Yes I did. MR PATEL When? MR MAJOLA We went to Mkuzi Camp during 1990, that is where we got trained. CHAIRPERSON I didn't get that answer, will you repeat it please? MR MAJOLA We were trained at Mkuzi Camp. I don't quite remember the date but I think it was during 1990. CHAIRPERSON Who told you to go there? MR MAJOLA We went for six months. We were taken by Inkatha Kombis or in Inkatha Kombis from Wusa. MR PATEL As members of the Black Cats gang were you given any assurances about prosecutions and or arrests in respect of any offences that you committed? MR MAJOLA Yes that is correct. Chris Ngwenya gave us the assurance. MR PATEL What assurance did he give you? MR MAJOLA He told us that we would not get arrested and I realised that it was true because at no stage did I get arrested. MR PATEL Were you - I don't know if I asked this question, were you prosecuted for any of the offences for which you claim amnesty? MR MAJOLA No I never did. MR PATEL Mr Chairman, if I could have just a five minute consultation with my client? CHAIRPERSON No more than five minutes. We're finishing the case today. HEARING ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION DAVID ELVIS MAJOLA (s.u.o.) EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL (continues) Mr Majola in your experience as a member of both the, at one stage as a member of the Black Cats and at one stage, and at this stage a member of the ANC, did you find in the political strife that was present did you find a different approach in respect of the two sides that you were once part of? MR MAJOLA I don't understand your question. MR PATEL Alright, let's try again. What was the approach of the IFP, the black cats with regard to the political turmoil that existed? CHAIRPERSON Mr Patel can you ask him to put ...[inaudible] MR MAJOLA I can hear. CHAIRPERSON Repeat your question then Mr Patel. MR PATEL Okay. As a member of the Black Cats what was the approach of the IFP or the Black Cats in so far as the political situation was concerned? How did they approach the matter? MR MAJOLA As a member I was not satisfied with the political strife that went on. MR PATEL As a - if one could in general talk about the way in which a particular party approaches the political turmoil, how would you say - what would you say was the approach of the Black Cats or Inkatha in dealing with the political unrest? MR MAJOLA They were attacking people, harassing them. MR PATEL Who is they? MR MAJOLA Yes I was referring to Inkatha as well as the Black Cats. MR PATEL When you went to KwaZulu for six months were you given any theoretical matters to deal with? MR MAJOLA Yes I do remember us being instructed. For instance that we should come back and harass and attack members of the ANC. MR PATEL When you turned and became a member of the ANC ..[intervention] ADV SANDI Sorry, Mr Patel can I just ask a few questions pertaining to the last issue, that is training? Who told you to go to Mkusi Camp for training? MR MAJOLA It was Chris as well as Jwi Zwane. ADV SANDI Who were you to go and undergo training with at the Mkusi Camp. MR MAJOLA We were a group. CHAIRPERSON Who trained you? MR MAJOLA It was Peter Mnsani as well as Sugar who was my commander, Sugar. ADV SANDI I understand you have said at some stage Chris Ngwenya had told you that you could do these things without getting into trouble with the Police. Did you ask him why he thought you could never get into trouble with the Police? MR MAJOLA We never asked him any questions but I believed him because I never got arrested. ADV SANDI Thank you Mr Patel. MR PATEL Mr Majola how old were you at the time that you went to KwaZulu Natal? MR MAJOLA I think I must have been between eighteen and twenty. MR PATEL When you became a member of the ANC did you find that their approach to the political strife that existed was any different from that of the IFP or the Black Cats? MR MAJOLA Yes it was different. MR PATEL Could you tell the Committee in which way it differed? MR MAJOLA I would say the approach was different with the ANC because we were mainly defending ourselves or the ANC was defending it's members. MR PATEL I've no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL CHAIRPERSON And when you were a Black Cat? Were they not defending themselves? MR MAJOLA No, their approach was attack. CHAIRPERSON Mr Black have you got any questions? MR BLACK No, I have no questions thank you. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kemp? MR KEMP I have no questions. CHAIRPERSON Mrs van der Walt. MRS VAN DER WALT No questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo? MR PRINSLOO No questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA Yes I have one or two questions thank you. CHAIRPERSON You had to spoil it. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Mr Majola in your evidence in chief you said there was a meeting at Chris Ngwenya's place where a decision was taken to kill Bobolina, do you remember that? MR MAJOLA Yes I do remember but I was from work so I was not at that meeting, I only arrived after the meeting had taken place. MR MAPOMA Was Chris Ngwenya present at that meeting? MR MAJOLA I have no clarity because I did not attend the meeting. MR MAPOMA When exactly did you arrive there? At what stage of the gathering did you arrive there? MR MAJOLA After the meeting had taken place. MR MAPOMA And then there were some people there is it not so? MR MAJOLA Yes there were a few people who were just preparing themselves to go to Bobolina's place. MR MAPOMA Was Chris Ngwenya amongst those people with them? MR MAJOLA He was at his place, the other one I came across was Sugar. MR MAPOMA Then were you instructed to also go to kill Bobolina? MR MAJOLA That is correct. MR MAPOMA Who instructed you to be part of that? MR MAJOLA Sugar, my commander. He was my commander then. MR MAPOMA What reasons did he give as to why Bobolina must be killed? MR MAJOLA No he did not. They we should fire ahead that's all I remember. MR MAPOMA Then was there an instruction to destroy anything that was ANC on the way to Bobolina? MR MAJOLA Yes there was. MR MAPOMA What did you understand that instruction to mean, to kill anything that is ANC? CHAIRPERSON He said to destroy. MR MAPOMA Thank you sir, I'm sorry. To destroy anything that is ANC what did you understand that to mean? MR MAJOLA Could you please repeat your question and be simple please? CHAIRPERSON Look, if you don't understand a question then say so but Mr Mapoma's asking the questions not you. What did you think he meant by when he said you must destroy everything that's ANC? MR MAJOLA I told myself that these people were the enemies of the IFP and we should therefore destroy them because that is the exact instruction that we got - to destroy. MR MAPOMA Mr Majola, I want you to please clarify this. A decision was taken specifically to kill Bobolina and it was not a decision to kill any ANC but to kill Bobolina the person. What was the issue with Bobolina? MR MAJOLA There was a decision that Bobolina led Jwi Zwane to his death. MR MAPOMA And that is the reason why you believed he had to be killed, is it not so? MR MAJOLA Yes. MR MAPOMA And there was no instruction at the time to kill the family of Bobolina, is it not so? MR MAJOLA Excuse me? MR MAPOMA When you left for Bobolina was any decision to kill the family of Bobolina also? MR MAJOLA There was an instruction to that effect. CHAIRPERSON Where did you get the instruction to kill Bobolina? MR MAJOLA From Sugar. CHAIRPERSON Where did you get the instruction to kill Mrs Shongwe? MR MAJOLA ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON What's your problem Mr Majola? MR MAJOLA Yes I have a problem. I did tell you before that I received an instruction from my commander, Sugar. Now I don't know what to answer the following question because I told you I received my instructions from Sugar. CHAIRPERSON No, I think the questions are very simple. Where did you get the instruction to kill Mrs Shongwe or from whom did you get that instruction? If you can't answer the question say so. MR MAJOLA It's not that I'm not able to. CHAIRPERSON Well then answer it please. MR MAJOLA I don't remember. CHAIRPERSON You don't remember where you got an instruction to kill somebody, is that what you're saying? MR MAJOLA We received the instruction from Sugar. CHAIRPERSON To kill Mrs Shongwe? MR MAJOLA Yes I can say that. CHAIRPERSON Was he with you when you went to Bobolina's house? MR MAJOLA Yes he was with us. CHAIRPERSON And he decided to kill the mother? MR MAJOLA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA I thought in your evidence in chief you said you got instructions from Nkobogazi. Would you explain this? CHAIRPERSON Be fair to him Mr Mapoma, he said that person suggested and everybody agreed and that person went into the house and he heard two shots. I think I'm right by that. MR MAPOMA Yes sir, thank you sir. CHAIRPERSON Well you - what was that person's name? MR MAJOLA Nkobogazi. CHAIRPERSON Didn't you say a little earlier that Nkobogazi suggested that since seeing you couldn't find the original person that you targeted that Mrs Shongwe should be killed? Everybody agreed and he went into the house and you heard two shots? MR PATEL With respect Mr Chairman, the evidence in chief was that when he got to the house after the meeting, this is the house where the meeting had been held, it is at this stage that the instruction was given by Mr Nkobogazi. When they went to the house of Mrs Zini Shongwe it was somebody else that was ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Well let me clear that up. You remember you testified that when you went there looking for Bobolina you couldn't find him do you remember? Just yes or no. MR MAJOLA We were in the yard. CHAIRPERSON Now when you go to a house normally you go into a yard. I'm asking you when you got to that house and looked for Bobolina, you couldn't find him. That's you and your colleagues. Do you remember saying so? MR MAJOLA Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON When that was discovered that he wasn't there it was suggested that Mrs Shongwe get killed, not so? MR MAJOLA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Who made that suggestion? MR MAJOLA It was Sugar. CHAIRPERSON And everybody agreed and Sugar went into the house and you heard two shots? MR MAJOLA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Why did he tell - why did you agree that Mrs Shongwe should be killed. What did she do? How did she lead Zwane to his death because that was the purpose of your trip to go sort out the person you suspected of leading Zwane to his death. How did Mrs Shongwe get involved in that, how was she linked to the death of Zwane? Can you answer that? MR MAJOLA It was decided that if we can't get hold of Bobolina it's best that we kill his mother. CHAIRPERSON Ja, that was decided there when you discovered Bobolina couldn't be found, isn't it? I'm asking you why did you agree to it? Have you got a reason or did you just agree with it because you were in the company? MR MAJOLA Yes I went along with it because there was absolutely nothing I could do if the commander had decided on that. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Mapoma. MR MAPOMA Thank you sir. Was Mrs Shongwe alone at her house? MR MAJOLA I do not know because I never go inside, I was standing outside the house. MR MAPOMA Thank you. No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Mr Patel have you got any more questions? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL Just for clarity, Mr Nkobogazi, who is he? MR MAJOLA I do not know his name, he was an Inkatha chairperson. His surname was Nkobogazi, I do not know his first name. MR PATEL Did he accompany - how many people went to the house of Mrs Shongwe? MR MAJOLA It was a large group. MR PATEL Was Mr Nkobogazi part of that group? MR MAJOLA He wasn't. MR PATEL The large group that went to the house, what was the armour, what weapons were taken with? MR MAJOLA Two of them had guns and we had an assortment of weapons, pangas. MR PATEL Apart from that was there any other material? MR MAJOLA I think that was about all, I did not see the hand grenades but I did hear some explosion at some stage. MR PATEL I have no further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL ADV BOSMAN Mr Majola, tell me would Mrs Shongwe was she a member of the IFP or the Black Cats or the ANC? MR MAJOLA She was a member of the ANC. ADV BOSMAN How did you know this? MR MAJOLA I stayed close to her place so I knew it. ADV BOSMAN Alright, let's take the unknown person who was attacked when you were a member of the ANC. Did you know to which political party this person belonged? MR MAJOLA The unknown man that we chased was an IFP member. ADV BOSMAN How did you know that? MR MAJOLA Excuse? ADV BOSMAN How did you know he was a member of the IFP? You didn't know the man, is that right? MR MAJOLA We knew him to be a member of the ANC. ADV BOSMAN But I don't understand, you say you did not know the man? MR MAJOLA Are you referring to the man that we chased whilst we were still IPF members? CHAIRPERSON In 1991 I think you were still an IFP member. You say you attempted to murder an unknown black male, sounds like a police docket, how are you able to say what his political affiliations are if you didn't know who he was? MR MAJOLA We got the ...[indistinct] the two that we chased away. I don't understand your question could you repeat it? CHAIRPERSON Mr Majola, what don't you understand. Exactly what don't you understand? The question is simple. If you didn't know the man how do you know what political affiliations he had and then it follows we're going to ask you why did you attempt to kill him? MR MAJOLA I did not know where he stayed but Chris said we should destroy anything in our path. ADV BOSMAN The question is how did you know to which political organisation he belonged? CHAIRPERSON Isn't it true you didn't know? MR MAJOLA Yes, we were destroying anything and everything in our path regardless of political affiliation because when we met this man one of our members said here are the others, here are some of the members of the political group and we saw them running away. CHAIRPERSON Look, you're confusing me now. I don't know who is more confused, you or me. Was your order now to destroy anything in your path irrespective of political affiliations, was that your new order now? MR MAJOLA Anyone who was not one of our members we had to destroy or attack. ADV BOSMAN How big is this Wesselton township area, how many people live there more or less? Do you have any idea, hundreds of people, thousands of people? MR MAJOLA Thousands but there are different sections. ADV BOSMAN Now how do you know who are IFP and who are ANC and who don't belong perhaps to any organisation? MR MAJOLA We knew each other as members of the IFP and if you were not in our group we assumed that you belonged to the other groups. ADV SANDI Do you perhaps know how old you are Mr Majola? MR MAJOLA I'm twenty eight years old. ADV SANDI Do you have any regrets about having done these things? MR MAJOLA Yes that is so. ADV SANDI What are your regrets? MR MAJOLA I regret having harassed some innocent members of the community and that the IFP used me in order to obtain it's own objectives. ADV SANDI What are you doing at the moment, what is your occupation? Are you working? MR MAJOLA I'm working at the Spoornet. ADV SANDI As what, I suppose as an ordinary worker? MR MAJOLA I washing the trains, I'm cleaning the trains. ADV SANDI Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Why did you change from IFP to the ANC? MR MAJOLA I realised that whatever they were sending me out to do or the instructions conflicted with my principles and beliefs. CHAIRPERSON And how long did it take you to realise that? MR MAJOLA It took me quite some time because I did want to get in touch with ANC members but it was not easy for me to just do that. CHAIRPERSON Now you say you're very sorry about harassing people both members of the IFP and members of the ANC? MR MAJOLA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Is that all you're sorry about? You're not sorry that you took peoples' lives? MR MAJOLA I never killed a person. CHAIRPERSON You agreed with Mrs Shongwe's murder? MR MAJOLA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You agreed with Carlton Maseko's murder? MR MAJOLA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You attempted to murder a person you didn't even know? MR MAJOLA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You attempted to murder and damage property belonging to the South African Police at that time and members of the Black Cats? MR MAJOLA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON You were party to attempting to murder some other members of the South African Police, no so? MR MAJOLA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now you're not sorry about all those things? MR MAJOLA I am sorry. CHAIRPERSON And when you were asked by Mr Sandi why didn't you say so? MR MAJOLA I did say so. CHAIRPERSON Were you ever in jail before? MR MAJOLA No. I've been arrested and I've never been convicted and I've never spent time in jail. CHAIRPERSON Before you found a job at the railways, how did you earn an income. How did you survive? MR MAJOLA I used to have temporary jobs at Albany that's how I survived. CHAIRPERSON I see and during your life you were at the Black Cats did you work? MR MAJOLA Yes I was working. CHAIRPERSON How or with what? MR MAJOLA I wasn't working in one of the General Dealers where I live as well as holding piece jobs at shops. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you, you're excused. MR MAJOLA Can I say something with your permission Chairperson? I would like to say to the members of the IFP as well as the community at large I am very sorry about what happened. I would like there to be reconciliation just like we should live like we lived before. That is all that I would want to say. WITNESS EXCUSED