amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-07-30 ERMELO 9 MANDLINKOSI ENOCH GITAM MNISI https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52739&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98072030_erm_blacat9.htm MR PATEL May it please you Mr Chairman I beg leave to call Mr Mandlinkosi Enoch Gitam Mnisi. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mnisi which language would you prefer to use? MR MNISI Zulu. MANDLINKOSI ENOCH GITAM MNISI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL Mr Mnisi where were you born? MR MNISI In Ermelo. MR PATEL And have you lived all your life in the Ermelo area? MR MNISI Yes that is correct. MR PATEL Now at the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty, what was your occupation? MR MNISI I was working at Checkers Stores. MR PATEL And at present what is your occupation? MR MNISI I'm unemployed. MR PATEL At the time of the commission of the offences for which you claim amnesty did you belong to any political party? MR MNISI Yes that is correct. MR PATEL Which party is that? MR MNISI I was a member of the ANC Youth League and SANCO which we regarded as a political organisation at the time. MR PATEL We've also heard evidence that you were a member of one of the self defence units, is that correct? MR MNISI That is correct. MR PATEL Now according to the schedule on page 22 of Volume 1 you claim amnesty for the following offences. Firstly the illegal possession of two hand grenades. MR MNISI That is correct. MR PATEL You also claim amnesty for the attempted murder and damage to property by hurling a hand grenade in the direction of members of the South African Police and the Black Cat gang. Do you confirm that? MR MNISI Yes I confirm that. MR PATEL When did that take place? MR MNISI That was in 1992. I'm rectifying the statement of the first applicant - that was in 1992 - of the previous witness that his one - that was in 1992, September. MR PATEL Okay and finally you claim amnesty for the attempted murder and damage to property by hurling one hand grenade in the direction of members of the South African Police. Do you confirm that? MR MNISI Yes I do confirm that. MR PATEL Could you just briefly describe to the Committee the circumstances - as I understand it it's all basically one incident. Could you explain the circumstances leading to the commission of these offences? MR MNISI On the 4th September 1992 there was a night vigil of one of our comrades Reggie Masugu. As far as I know Reggie was killed by the Black Cat members. They abandoned him somewhere in the Extension and for the whole week we've been preparing for all these things. The police did nothing about the matter, no one was arrested. They would do anything in the township and they even threatened us but as member of the STU I was effected. On the 4th it happened that I was told I was with comrade Charlie Majola, I received a telephone call saying that the Black Cats were planning to attack and it became evident that they were in the company of police. I told myself that I don't need a command here, I've got to defend the members of the ANC and the ANC Youth League and SANCO. I contacted comrade Biso. I took four hand grenades and I gave the other one to Charlie and I was left with two. I knew very well that we were in - it was obvious that in the Black township sometimes we used to run short of electricity. I decided to switch off the street light so that they will think that there is a problem, a technical problem and the people who didn't move. We moved from the direction of the bar and we saw there standing someone and even the Police Casspir was there. I instructed Charlie to throw the first bomb and we had to get inside the houses next to Tembisa Stores. Charlie threw the first grenade but we had intervals, there were intervals in between because we didn't have enough ammunition. I decided that since we didn't have enough ammunition we've got to get some firearms somewhere else because the people had automatic rifles because they were shooting throughout the night. Charlie threw the other bomb at the centre. There was a Police Casspir next to the advertising board. Fortunately that did not explode. In the morning at about 5 a.m.....[intervention] MR PATEL What time did these first three hand grenades get thrown, approximately what time? MR MNISI The other three hand grenades were thrown during the night. The last one was in the morning at 7 a.m. Charlie threw two and I threw only one grenade but it was very dark and during the day it was brighter that's why I can say that only three hand grenades were used during that and because it was dark. I saw a need to disarm these people. There was only one way to do that was to throw the hand grenade either inside the Police Casspir or outside. Because of the speed that they were driving I decided to throw the hand grenade under the Police Casspir so as to lose direction but the driver managed to hold and he was successful. MR PATEL Mr Mnisi, during the night how far away were the South African Police and the Black Cats people from where you were? MR MNISI I can't calculate the distance in metres but I think the distance was about from where I am right now to that corner times two - they were at a distance. From where I am now and at that point where the corner of the podium is times two. MR PATEL Approximately 50/60 metres Mr Chairman. So you could see them? Could you see them? MR MNISI Yes I could see them but they were at a distance. I couldn't come closer to them but I could see them. I could see that there were Black Cats armed with pangas and the Police armed with big rifles but I couldn't distinguish between an R5 or whatever. MR PATEL Yes and it was your belief that they were going to attack the vigil is that correct? MR MNISI Yes I believed so that they were going to attack the night vigil. What made me to believe so it's because the Black Cats who were not residing at Tembisa so I knew that there was trouble when I saw them there. MR PATEL How did you as a member of the ANC view people who were part of the South African Police, the IFP or the Black Cats? MR MNISI Please repeat the question? MR PATEL You were a member of the ANC, correct? MR MNISI Correct. MR PATEL And how did you view people who belonged to the South African Police or the IFP or members of the Black Cats? MR MNISI All those, to me they looked like one family and they were enemies. They were ANC enemies. MR PATEL In committing these offences for which you claim amnesty did you - were you motivated on anything personal, any malice or did you get any money, any gain out of it? MR MNISI No, that was not my intention. MR PATEL And in respect of these offences for which you claim amnesty were you prosecuted for any of these offences? MR MNISI No, that never happened. MR PATEL I have no further questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Black do you have any questions? MR BLACK I have no questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kemp? MR KEMP I have no questions Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mrs van der Walt? MRS VAN DER WALT No questions. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mapoma? MR MAPOMA No questions. ADV BOSMAN Mr Mnisi from whom did you receive this telephone call? MR MNISI It was from some people who were deployed in some places in the township though I don't know their names but I knew they were coming from an organisation. CHAIRPERSON Just one short question Mr Mnisi. Your participation in the STU, is it correct that the STU were established for political reasons to defend the community is that correct? MR MNISI Yes that is true. CHAIRPERSON How do you feel about what you did? MR MNISI At the moment what I did was bad but I was forced by the situation prevailing at the time but it was bad because people died and some people were injured and some of the people were being harassed and the people have lost their properties and a lot of children were left as orphans and some other people couldn't get education because of those things. CHAIRPERSON Would you agree that whatever the problems were, the deaths of people were unacceptable? MR MNISI It was unacceptable but on the other side of the coin by trying to protect yourself that would lead to the death of a person, yes it was unacceptable but when you look at it, even the people who were working for the judiciary system were in favour of some groups therefore that used to be in your hands to say how to protect yourself. CHAIRPERSON Do you think we should continue with that type of culture? MR MNISI Here today here in this new South Africa that's unacceptable more especially here and the people are not supposed to be harassed. The political parties are not supposed to be dominant among others. There should be some tolerance, political tolerance. That is what is going to make people live in peace. CHAIRPERSON Are you prepared to participate in any mechanism as a starting point to restore the fibre of this community irrespective of political affiliations and irrespective of what has gone by? MR MNISI Yes I am prepared. CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you, you're excused. MR MNISI I would like to say something, I would like to apologise to the families. The families of the Police and the families of the Black Cat members who were injured at the time. I was forced by the political situation, I had no alternative but today I would like us to turn to a new page and we must know that today it's the beginning of the new era where we are going to tolerate each other. We become brothers and sisters and go on with life. Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Mr Patel I suppose that brings to an end all applicants? MR PATEL That is correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Black have you got any further evidence? MR BLACK Mr Chairman, I just wish to indicate that to clarify a very defined and definite issue relating to the instructions given to the STU by Mr Gushu, I propose to call Mr Gushu just to set out the situation. There appear to be two conflicting versions of the nature of the instruction given, one version of Mr Livingstone Lukhele and the other one by Mr Bongani Khaba and ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON How is that going to help your case? MR BLACK As far as Mr Gushu's concerned I may state from the bar, I've consulted with him and if it's going to speed -I don't want to give evidence on his behalf but he's prepared to testify that he did give a general instruction as ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He did that, he testified to that. MR BLACK No - yes but Mr Khaba says that he was given a specific instruction to attack a specific person and Mr Gushu's instructions to me are that he within the ambit of his mandate he did set up the STU's, he confirms that Khaba and Livingstone Lukhele were members of the STU which he addressed and he gave them a mandate to - whatever it is - stabilise the situation as best as they saw fit. CHAIRPERSON Mr Black if you're going to call Mr Gushu you're just going to clutter up the record and make our job more difficult because Mr Gushu has already testified. MR BLACK Yes - no ....[intervention] CHAIRPERSON And if he's going to come give any other type of evidence then that's going to be to his detriment, not so? MR BLACK No he won't, he's not going to deviate from his original evidence. CHAIRPERSON So what's the point in calling him then? MR BLACK Well he's prepared to just state that he will accept responsibility for any actions carried out by the STU's which he established and in whatever vicarious liability may flow from that he is prepared - he would ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I think you safely assume that we will when necessary do that and approach it that way which brings me to the problem raised with you previously and that's the last time I'm going to mention it because then the matter's in your hands. In our view there's a definite conflict of interest between what Khaba says and what Gushu has not said. I'm not too sure what you've got in mind how to reconcile the two but if you are going to have to argue that I'm going to believe one of your clients and not believe the other then there is a problem. MR BLACK Well this is the reason for me wanting to call Mr Gushu because ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON How is that going to solve your problem, Mr Black? MR BLACK Mr Gushu would be able to say as I've said that the instruction that was given to Livingstone and Mr Khaba was given on the one occasion, he at no time gave a separate instruction to Mr Khaba. CHAIRPERSON And Mr Khaba says he did, not so? MR BLACK Yes well that's his interpretation of the general instruction that was given. The interpretation was to take out the leaders and he, Mr Khaba, knew that Obed was one of the leaders. CHAIRPERSON Do you feel you're in between two stools? MR BLACK I don't believe ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Perhaps I may just point out perhaps you're standing in one of them? MR BLACK With respect Mr Chairman there was one instruction given where at the establishment of the STU how Khaba interpreted that as far specifics ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON We've got that evidence, what do we do with it? How can you call Mr Gushu to tell us what Khaba interpreted? MR BLACK No well he can't but he can confirm that he did give that general instruction to the STU's. CHAIRPERSON He's testified to that and we'll accept that this is his evidence. MR BLACK And that he can say that he did not give a specific instruction that Mr Obed Nhlabathi be eliminated. CHAIRPERSON And Khaba says he didn't. MR BLACK Well then that's how Mr Khaba saw the issue. I don't believe there's a real conflict in the real issue ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Well I've mentioned it to you and that's it. MR BLACK But Mr Gushu would apply if necessary for any - and accept responsibility for any liability which - in respect of the death ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Are you expecting he wants to make an application in the respect of Obed? MR BLACK Well if he's going to be held responsible for Mr Obed's death then he is prepared to accept that responsibility and he will ask for Amnesty in respect of that specific ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON No but Mr Black it doesn't work like that. I or this Committee grants or refuses application for amnesty full stop. We're not expected to assume or to deduce applications. Those applications must be before us. MR BLACK Well my - the evidence of Mr Gushu and I don't know if it came out clearly in his evidence that he accepts responsibility in respect of any specific incidence ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON It did come out. MR BLACK ... carried out by STU's within the mandate of STU's and within the mandate of the STU's and in that respect he would ask for amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Maybe we can approach it depending on what you say in your heads. The problem is that there's a factual difference in the evidence and I leave it at that. MR BLACK Yes. CHAIRPERSON Mr Patel do you intend calling any further evidence or witnesses? MR PATEL Mr Chairman there may be one crucial witness with regard to the incident of Mrs Zini Shongwe but he too is an applicant for a future hearing. I'm not sure to what extent this Committee will take into account his evidence at the future hearing and whether it's necessary for me to lead him or not. CHAIRPERSON The factual issue, the present situation is that you must argue and we'll listen to your argument or read your argument and make a decision. One must always bear in mind that one of the crucial aspects in determining whether amnesty must be granted or not is the position of the applicant himself. The evidence of witnesses are not really taken into consideration to make those crucial decisions. The best witnesses can do is to fortify versions maybe but to really clarify the issues that's the applicant's job, after all he makes the application and I would like that your argument will have to carry a lot of weight then, quite honestly. MR PATEL My problem is this, I haven't consulted with this particular person, I'm not exactly sure what he's going to say but I do understand that he's Mr Israel Sugar Shlongwane, that he was the commander at the time of the attack. My problem is that I don't know whether the Committee will look at his evidence to any extent when he gives evidence at a further hearing in so far as it - which I understand is going to take place in September of this year. If that is the case and I don't have to take it any further because I can then argue that once you look at his evidence. If that is not the case then I want to reserve my right. I will speak to him during one of the intervals and then maybe at a later stage ask the Committee if I can call him. He is present at this hearing. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kemp do you intend calling any witnesses? MR KEMP Mr Chairman we have about fourteen witnesses. No Mr Chairman ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON One of those questions are the trivial pursuit you were playing just now? MR KEMP No Mr Chairman, I couldn't resist it, I apologise. No we do not intend to call any witnesses. CHAIRPERSON I take it in the spirit. It's about time we get a little lightheartedness. MRS VAN DER WALT Mr Chairman, I indicated that I wish to bring an application to get back to Mr Andries Gomedi. At that stage I had no instruction from Mr Msibi and I believe it's just a few statements I'm going to make. Mr Msibi is going to be called up as a witness otherwise I'm just going to put Mr Msibi's version if you would grant me the opportunity. CHAIRPERSON Is he going to say what happened there. Is he going to be a victim? MRS VAN DER WALT Mr Msibi? CHAIRPERSON Yes. MRS VAN DER WALT Yes. He was shot at. CHAIRPERSON Madame you know how these things work and I'm going to grant you the opportunity to call him. I do not look forward to a whole string of people cross-questioning him. MRS VAN DER WALT You would understand I have an instruction to have him testify. CHAIRPERSON I understand that. If you could lead him in the normal procedure just to air his feelings. I know why he wants to testify and it's his right to do so. MRS VAN DER WALT I will do so. CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo do you have any witnesses? MR PRINSLOO None Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Have you got less than six left Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH About six Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON One of whom want to come testify on the merits isn't it? A lady who was shot at near a shop. MR HATTINGH That was the incident where Chris Ngwenya got killed together with his wife. CHAIRPERSON She going to come say how people ran and that type of thing? MR HATTINGH Yes. CHAIRPERSON In her case too I would appreciate if you lead her in a way that doesn't invite a whole string of questions. She's after all a victim and she wants to come tell her story and that's basically what the Act is designed for to allow her to say what she needs to say. I assume the other five are in a similar position - they just want to come say how they struggled and suffered as a result of what happened to their loved ones or themselves? MR HATTINGH Yes. Mr Chairman ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON It ought not to take too long. MR HATTINGH No, I do not foresee that we're going to take too long but on the incident of Obed Nhlabathi there will also be witnesses pertaining to the incident itself but that is well I don't think is going to take much time. CHAIRPERSON Well Mr Hattingh is it been disputed that when he died only the two applicants were present when they were shot? MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I in fact have a problem that I since got hold of witness statements to the effect that there were in fact more people present. I at this stage do not intend calling on those witnesses but I think what I should do is and perhaps I could get some direction from the Committee to make available whatever statements I since gathered from Police dockets. CHAIRPERSON As opposed to leading that evidence? MR HATTINGH Yes, just to make it available. CHAIRPERSON For what it's worth. MR HATTINGH For what it's worth as long as the Committee has ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I think that's better. Okay. Mr Mapoma you haven't got any witnesses or do you? MR MAPOMA No sir, no witnesses. MR BLACK Mr Chairman may I indicate that I have been approached by Mr Nkosi who was one of the victims. He would like to testify, it relates to Mr Khaba's application. He's asked me whether he could have an opportunity. CHAIRPERSON Mr Black do you really think you could appear for him? MR BLACK I don't intend to appear for him, he's approached me - I will tell ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON You should refer him to the evidence leader. MR BLACK That's what I intend doing, thanks. CHAIRPERSON I want to point out to everybody concerned that this is not the time to score political points and I'm not addressing the representatives, so those who are entitled to come testify want to hear how you feel about the situation. We don't intend to listen to evidence regarding political stances. We'll adjourn now for tea and reconvene in fifteen minutes time. HEARING ADJOURNS CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] must come tell us why they feel they are victims. Usually that takes a very, very short while because really it is easy to establish whether someone is a victim or not. Victims include people who were either injured themselves or the nearest relative of those who died. I want to point out also that where a person has died, not both his mother and father are referred to the Reparations Committee but only one of them. That's just by way of an example. The opportunity to testify now is only for such people and the Act is designed for that purpose only and not to accommodate or facilitate political speeches. I want to warn that I will stop any political speeches and put the witness who may want to do that back onto the track of the Act. In fact I am duty bound to do that because the Act says so and who is going to come and give evidence - or the decision as to who is going to give evidence are the domain of the representatives. There is no point in two people coming to give evidence on the same incident and I hope I've made myself clear. This hearing is not a political gain. Mrs van der Walt you can call your witness. MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, before Mrs van der Walt calls her witness Bengi Mlangeni, the brother of victim Mlangeni, he says that he opposes the amnesty of Gushu. Msibi who was also involved in this case will be called as a witness by my colleague and that evidence or testimony will be about that case or incident. In other words it would not be necessary for me to call Mlangeni as a witness but he sees himself as a victim because he was family of his brother who was killed. CHAIRPERSON Mr Prinsloo, I appreciate what you just said and I would definitely note it. We will also take it into consideration. MRS VAN DER WALT Can we then at this stage call Mr Gomedi again in order to ask him a few questions? Mr Andries Gomedi. CHAIRPERSON Ma'am the alternative was to submit this in the statements. Just remind me please I did not think about it very well. Why did you want to call Mr Gomedi back again? MRS VAN DER WALT When Mr Gomedi gave evidence I had not received instructions from Mr Msibi yet then there was no cross-examination and Mr Msibi's case was not put to Mr Gomedi. You will remind yourself that Mr Gomedi was basically called by Mr Black in order to give the background of Piet Retief during that period. CHAIRPERSON Ma'am please tell me - I'm not going to say that I will allow it or not. Mr Msibi received notification of this hearing. MRS VAN DER WALT It is so yes. I also asked him to bring the notification. It is dated the 24th June but according to Mr Msibi there was a fax printout that indicates that on the 17th July he received it. It is not when he got it but when he sent it to his attorney in Pretoria. He gave me the instruction that he received it on the 17th July and only then did he receive the notification. A notification was sent to another Mr Msibi, his brother and not to him. CHAIRPERSON Was he not present when Mr Gomedi gave evidence? MRS VAN DER WALT He was here yes but I did not have his instructions at that stage. CHAIRPERSON That is exactly the point. Why did he not then give instructions. He heard the person give evidence. MRS VAN DER WALT Mr Prinsloo at that stage told you that Mr Msibi approached him and told him that his advocate would come the next day and his advocate not come. CHAIRPERSON I understand that I do feel for your position but the point remains that like they say in English call people back in a willy nilly fashion. There must be good reason for it. The fact that you did not have instructions and I'm not talking about you personally but the fact that you only received instructions at a later stage, is that sufficient to call someone back? I ask, I'm not saying that this is my view. MRS VAN DER WALT I'm of the opinion that it is possibly not Mr Msibi's mistake because I do not know why his legal representative was not here and that his attorney only gave this at a later stage I cannot say but possibly Mr Msibi in that regard can be disadvantaged by other parties. CHAIRPERSON You see we must not allow people to think that they can use the whole process or the Committee as they wish and because of their own mistakes or negligence they can do something like that. Before I make a decision how many questions will this entail? MRS VAN DER WALT I think all that I would like to do is I would like to put the case of Mr Msibi to Mr Gomedi. If he wants to make comment on that but Mr Msibi will in any case give evidence or testify. CHAIRPERSON So you will only make a statement and then ask his comments on that and that is it? MRS VAN DER WALT That will be the end, yes. CHAIRPERSON Is Mr Gomedi here? MR BLACK Mr Chairman, may I be of assistance. Mr Gomedi was not subpoenaed by this Committee or anyone to ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Black he has given evidence. MR BLACK Yes that is so. When Mrs van der Walt indicated that there was a possibility of him being recalled I indicated this to him. He arrived here this morning, he said it's impossible for him to be here, he has to be in Durban. There's a joint council meeting between the Durban and Piet Retief areas that cannot be rescheduled it's a long standing arrangement. I asked him to explain this to the leader of evidence and what the situation should be. He's not available to testify today, he is willing at any stage to give evidence and it's - I asked him just ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON You know I'm not willing to just hear his evidence when it's to his convenience. Who excused him from this hearing? MR MAPOMA Mr Chairman, perhaps I may have to explain this. Mr Gomedi is here, in fact what Mr Black now is telling me it was prior to me going to Mr Msibi, I mean to Mr Gomedi again, arranging that he must be available. He is available. CHAIRPERSON Mr Gomedi will you come to the stand please? MR BLACK I'm sorry I was under the impression that he would not be available but I'll ask him to discuss this with the leader of evidence. CHAIRPERSON Mr Gomedi there are just one or two issues which Advocate van der Walt would like to put to you in respect of what she has been instructed in relation to the political situation in Piet Retief at that time and you will be invited to comment if you so wish. I just need you to take the oath again. Or let me put it this way, you're still under oath to tell the truth. MR GOMEDI (s.u.o.) CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MRS VAN DER WALT Mr Gomedi I would like to put it to you and Mr Msibi will testify in this regard and that is in the testimony that you gave regarding the situation in Piet Retief from 1989 that it was a false image that you portrayed to this Committee? CHAIRPERSON And that it was more quiet in that area? INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is not on. MRS VAN DER WALT Mr Msibi will testify that up to the moment when he was shot in Piet Retief - that was now in the Black neighbourhood Ethandakukhanya there was no problems, there were no ANC members shot in that area and if he was the first person who was shot the 12th December 1991. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any comments about that proposition? MR GOMEDI No I don't want to comment. MRS VAN DER WALT Furthermore, Mr Msibi will say that your testimony is false with regards to the fact that he in a dishonest way got rid of the Mayor Malakasi and Mr Msibi in 1988 was elected as a council member of the area and in 1990 became mayor and filled this position till 1994. Would you like to comment on that? MR GOMEDI No I don't want to comment. MRS VAN DER WALT And furthermore which was also not correct in your testimony you said that a certain Mr Pila Ngene was killed in such a manner that could possibly implicate the police. The Msibi will testify that he died in a car accident. Would you like to comment on that? MR GOMEDI Maybe Chairperson you must help me, you know, because if I will start maybe trying to respond to these things we are going to take another five hours, you know. I will rather say I don't want to comment and say I still stand on my statement that I make. CHAIRPERSON Are you suggesting it's your word against his and we must make up our minds? MR GOMEDI Ja. CHAIRPERSON Is that all? MRS VAN DER WALT A few more comments. Mr Msibi will testify that in the neighbourhood, especially the inhabitants provided his service not as a member of a political party, he was not a member of Inkatha. Up till today he's still not a member of Inkatha and he works for the community as a whole not like you testified that he worked against the ANC. Have you got any comments? MR GOMEDI No comment. MRS VAN DER WALT Mr Msibi will further testify that you drove around the neighbourhood with a vehicle with a loudspeaker in which you incited the people against Mr Msibi and the South African Police. CHAIRPERSON Is everything that Mr Msibi thinks will he testify about that? MRS VAN DER WALT That is true, yes. Have you got any comments? MR GOMEDI Maybe Chairperson let me request again that maybe the madame that side you know must say whatever he wants to say and end up and you know, rather than talking and say I must comment, talking and say I must comment. MRS VAN DER WALT I've got no further questions, he doesn't want to answer. MR GOMEDI Thank you Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED MRS VAN DER WALT Then I call Mr Msibi. CHAIRPERSON Mr Msibi, which language would you prefer to use? MR MSIBI I would like to use Zulu and - I'll say 50/50. CHAIRPERSON Mr Msibi, you will use one language please. Otherwise you will cause a big rumpus here with the system so choose one of the languages please. MR MSIBI I will use Zulu. CHAIRPERSON Very well. ALPHEUS DUMUSANE MSIBI (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MRS VAN DER WALT Mr Msibi, you are a resident of Piet Retief is that correct? MR MSIBI Yes. MRS VAN DER WALT Since when have you been living in Piet Retief? MR MSIBI I was born in Piet Retief, stayed in the township as of 1964 to date. MRS VAN DER WALT What work are you doing at this moment? MR MSIBI I'm a business owner. I'm a small business owner. CHAIRPERSON Mr Msibi, I understand that you were injured in the incident in Piet Retief, correct? MR MSIBI Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON How do you feel about that? MR MSIBI I feel bad because I was working for the community at the time. CHAIRPERSON And do you think that your injury or the infliction of the injury was not justified? MR MSIBI Yes, it was not justified nor was it acceptable. CHAIRPERSON: What position did you hold in the community at that time? MR MSIBI I was Mayor of Ethandakukhanya. Maybe we should put this straight - it was spoken here about the mayor of Piet Retief but at the time I was Mayor of Ethandakukhanya under 102 Act and this went on to 127 followed by Act 209. This should be clarified. CHAIRPERSON That was under the apartheid regime those Acts? MR MSIBI I would say the that Act was in use was of course under the Apartheid regime and the Act 127 that I'm talking about was used at the time during which there were democratic negotiations and the 209 Act was following the negotiations at the World Trade Centre. CHAIRPERSON Now do you regard yourself as a victim? MR MSIBI I am a victim that was not supposed to be a victim because I was working for the community not belonging to any political party. I was victimised by thugs and people who were trying to drag me down. CHAIRPERSON Ja but you were a victim in the sense that you were injured as was described here earlier in this hearing and for the purposes of this Act you want to be regarded as a victim? MR MSIBI I don't want to be regarded as a victim, I am a victim. I was shot and harassed at a time when I did not belong to any political party. There were no politics in the area at the time, there was no conflict until I was shot and the manner in which I was working and the manner in which we were elected I would say we were the first township whose councillors were democratically elected at the time. CHAIRPERSON Mr Msibi, I thought I told you and I made it specifically an announcement to the public that this section of the hearing is not to hear about your political attributes - this Act says that this Committee must declare victims and then refer the position of those victims to the Reparations Committee to consider a financial grant. That is all. I'm going to repeat the question - do you want us to regard you as a victim for the purposes of the Act? MR MSIBI Chairperson, I think you will allow me to explain. The one opportunity that you have just granted me is one opportunity that I have long been waiting for. In 1996 ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON No, you're making a mistake now. I did not grant you an opportunity to come make political speeches. I granted you an opportunity to come tell us how you felt and to establish whether you are a victim or not. That's the section that we're busy with in this hearing. The time for saying what you want to say now is to be spent in front of the Human Rights Violations Committee not in front of the Amnesty Committee. MR MSIBI Thank you for explaining that to me. Thank you for informing me that there is another Committee in existence. That was not clear, I didn't know that, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Now can I repeat the question. Do you want us for the purposes of the Act to declare you a victim so that the Reparations Committee can consider some financial ground because you are a victim? MR MSIBI Yes I am a victim in so far as reparation is concerned, it is for the Committee to decide but I am a victim. CHAIRPERSON Tell me what is your address? Why I ask you is that communication can go directly to you. I understand that the subpoena got lost somewhere so I need to tell the Committees who are dealing with this exactly where they can send whatever communication they want to send to you. MR MSIBI My address is Box 167, Piet Retief, Ethandakukhanya, that's the township where I reside. CHAIRPERSON Can you spell that please? MR MSIBI E-t-h-a-n-d-a-k-u-k-h-a-n-y-a. CHAIRPERSON And what's your full names please? MR MSIBI Alpheus Dumusane Msibi. CHAIRPERSON Have you got any other questions? MRS VAN DER WALT If you will just allow me, I would like to put one question. Mr Msibi as you've heard the testimony of Mr Gushu and what you experienced when you were shot do you think that you were shot because of some political reason? MR MSIBI No, that is not correct. MRS VAN DER WALT How did you perceive the situation? What was the peoples' intention when they shot you? MR MSIBI It was thuggery, that's all I can say. It was thuggery. It was not politics. MRS VAN DER WALT Mr Mlangeni who worked for you was he involved in any political organisation? MR MSIBI I wouldn't know but he was just an ordinary community member to me. CHAIRPERSON Mr Msibi, what's Mr Mlangeni's full names? MR MSIBI Themba Mlangeni. CHAIRPERSON And where can he be contacted? MR MSIBI You can try and get hold of Adelaide Mlangeni working at the provincial hospital at Piet Retief or alternatively Beki Mlangeni who resides in Stand Number 298 Tokazani, Piet Retief. CHAIRPERSON That provincial hospital is in Piet Retief? MR MSIBI Yes. MRS VAN DER WALT Did you know about the Black Cats and if you do know about them did you give them shelter at one stage? MR MSIBI That is an insult to me, I've never harboured Black Cats nor were there Black Cats at Piet Retief and I do not harbour thugs at my home. MRS VAN DER WALT No further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MRS VAN DER WALT. CHAIRPERSON I don't suppose anybody else has any questions for this witness? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK I'm directly involved Mr Chairman, I'd like - there's some matters I'd like to clear up if possible. Mr Msibi is it correct you are a prominent member in the community at Piet Retief? MR MSIBI That is true. MR BLACK Yes, in fact it is said that you're the Chairman of the Nationalist Party there? MR MSIBI That is utter lies. MR BLACK So you don't hold out to anybody there that you held a high office in the Nationalist Party? MR MSIBI Not at all those are ...[indistinct] lies. MR BLACK As a prominent member of the community are you aware of the fact that the Human Rights Violations Committee has in fact sat in Piet Retief - in fact sat there last year some time? CHAIRPERSON What relevance is that Mr ...[intervention] MR BLACK The relevance is that he did not testify before the Human Rights Violation Committee. CHAIRPERSON So what. So what - how is that going to effect our deliberations? MR BLACK It is raised now that this is the first time he hears of this, such a Committee and we've got to go through the whole process ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON So what? MR BLACK Well be that as it may then. Then if I'll - I'll move on. Do you know Mr Shlaze? Shleze, sorry. MR MSIBI I just want to correct you. I didn't know what the Chairman ultimately said about the question that you posed earlier on. CHAIRPERSON I gather that the Chairman's view was that it's immaterial to this hearing that the Human Rights Violations Committee did sit in Piet Retief. MR MSIBI With your permission Chairperson, I would like to explain that I was at Piet Retief. Msibi's name was not announced, it was only used in Nelspruit and I was sitting at the front row during those hearings. MR BLACK Ja but the point is you didn't testify you didn't make a claim then, you didn't put your case forward at that hearing, is that so? You may have pretended but you didn't lodge your claims isn't that so? MR MSIBI I don't want to answer that. MR BLACK Fine. Mr Msibi, did you know Mr Shleze in Piet Retief? MR MSIBI Yes he's a resident of Piet Retief. MR BLACK Did you know him as being an ANC activist, Chairman of the ANC Youth League and perhaps an MK Commander. MR MSIBI I was not involved in politics, I was representing the community not taking sides. MR BLACK Okay. Now Mr Msibi, have you any ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Msibi, I'm not going to hold that against you but you say you were the Mayor of the township of Piet Retief prior to 1994? MR MSIBI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON There was a number of calls, decisions and in fact practical steps taken to boycott Apartheid elections do you recall that? Before 1994 in almost every township in this country. Do you remember? MR MSIBI I don't recall that. CHAIRPERSON You don't know about it? MR MSIBI Boycotting the elections, no I know nothing about that. CHAIRPERSON Did you never read on walls "Don't Vote" - "Don't vote in Apartheid elections" etc. Do you not recall that? MR MSIBI Are you referring to the '94 elections or the elections prior to that? CHAIRPERSON Before '94. '94 there was no more Apartheid on the books. MR MSIBI Or '88. CHAIRPERSON Well let's get to '88, there's more reason then I'm sure all the walls said "Don't Vote". MR MSIBI Piet Retief was different. Maybe you're referring to other parts of the country, yes I knew about that. CHAIRPERSON There was nothing in Piet Retief there was no call for a boycott of Apartheid elections there in Piet Retief. MR MSIBI No, not at Piet Retief. The wards there were combined into one and after the boycott which lasted for four days there was an agreement between the Committee of sitting and the old T.P.A. and it was agreed that we were going to use the one vote system. That is when the rental boycott came to an end. That was October 1988. The election in Piet Retief was held in October 1988 on the 29th and the agreement was reached on the 24th October to the effect that the boycott should come to and end so that the people ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Carry on - so that the people? MR MSIBI So that the people who were to be elected by the community would on assuming official duties indicate to the residents that they should start paying. There was a document that was prepared and signed by some of the people. CHAIRPERSON Yes so that the Black township, the African township of Piet Retief had it's own Mayor and Council and the White people of Piet Retief had their own? Are you telling me that the people were satisfied with that? MR MSIBI Yes the ...[indistinct] was. CHAIRPERSON Extraordinary. Now the fact that you were the Mayor, don't you think that in itself attracted the anger of people? MR MSIBI With your permission, Mr Chairman, let me start off by saying - I just want to respond to that. Piet Retief was one area that was seriously harassed in 1983. The people who worked as councillors before were using the policy that people should pay as they earn. That created problems so that the councillors at the time were boycotted by the residents. Some of the councillors threatened that residents who didn't want to pay should vacate their houses. These residents managed to get hold of a lawyer ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Maybe you misunderstand me. I'm not interested in whether there was a rent boycott or whatever, I'm asking you that the fact that you were prepared to do what the Apartheid regime wanted to be done in the African townships and you were the Mayor of that structure, is that not the reason why the people were angry in Piet Retief? MR MSIBI No that is not correct. CHAIRPERSON So you are saying the Black people of Piet Retief were happy to have this structure that the rest of the country was rejecting? MR MSIBI They were very happy because as I have indicated. CHAIRPERSON Good. Mr Black have you got any other questions? MR BLACK I just want to clear up something for Mr Gushu. When we deal with Mr Shleze did you know that he, in your position as mayor, that he was Chairman of the ANC Youth League? MR MSIBI No. I only knew him to be a resident of Ethandakukhanya. MR BLACK Alright. Now there's been evidence given that there was reports made that you were actually entertaining or housing Askaris? MR MSIBI Those are blue lies. I only heard about the Askari reports here. I don't even know what the meaning of that word is, I don't even know whence it came from. MR BLACK Is this the first time you've hear the word Askari? MR MSIBI Yes, I don't even know what it means, perhaps if you were to explain to me. MR BLACK So up until ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Black, a horse that arises from the dead is more dangerous hey. MR BLACK I just want to put one more thing to the witness with respect that as far as the actual incident of the shooting was concerned at your store, there's evidence that Mr Mlangeni who was working for you at the time, he was in the process of closing the store when you were attacked. Do you remember that or did things happen too quickly for you? MR MSIBI Yes I do remember that. MR BLACK Yes. Do you remember that he was in the process of closing and that you had gone to your car when you were shot? MR MSIBI I was inside the van, 4x4 Nissan, not another private car and I had closed the right door with the window open. Mlangeni had already closed the two glass door not having rolled down the roller door and he already had the key in his pocket. He took the flight of stairs down and when he was just about to put the till inside the vehicle there was noise. MR BLACK That's when the shooting started? MR MSIBI Yes, it never occurred to me that those were gunshots I thought maybe it was a train that was driving past. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR MSIBI I'm saying this Chairperson because the manner in which the shots were fired were such that I've never heard of such gunshots before. CHAIRPERSON Mr Black you're long past your last question. MR BLACK I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK CHAIRPERSON Anybody else wants to ask questions? MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman on behalf of Mr Beki Mlangeni the brother of the late Mlangeni, may I just put two questions to the witness, Mr Chairman? MR PRINSLOO Mr Msibi, is it correct that Mr Beki Mlangeni is the brother of Mr Themba Mlangeni, the deceased in this case? MR MSIBI Yes that is correct. MR PRINSLOO And he is also former brother-in-law, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON What's that name Mr Prinsloo? MR PRINSLOO The name of the victim, Mr Chairman? The deceased in this case is Themba Mlangeni and the name of the person, the brother in law of the witness Beki Mlangeni? CHAIRPERSON How does he become a victim, a brother-in-law? MR PRINSLOO No, Mr Chairman, he's the brother of Themba Mlangeni the deceased but the brother-in-law of the witness. CHAIRPERSON Oh, I see. I'm sorry. What's the brother's name? MR PRINSLOO Beki Mlangeni. CHAIRPERSON Good. Can we contact him care of Adelaide Mlangeni, Provincial Hospital, Piet Retief? MR PRINSLOO Or at the same address as the witness, Mr Msibi, Mr Chairman. It's Box 167, Ethandakukanya. CHAIRPERSON Would he prefer that address? MR PRINSLOO That's correct Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Good, okay. MR PRINSLOO Just a last question. Mr Msibi, Mr Beki Mlangeni he says that his late brother was never involved in politics and that his brother was merely a victim of a robbery. Any comment about that? MR MSIBI Yes, that is correct. He was not involved in politics as much as I was not involved in politics. We were working together at my shop. I also worked at Mondi where I worked for twenty years, that led me to establishing the business. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON Anyone else? MR HATTINGH No questions thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAPOMA Yes Chairperson, there's a question. Do you know Noma Themba Mlangeni? MR MSIBI I know her very well. She grew right before me. MR MAPOMA How related is she to Themba? MR MSIBI She is Themba's sister. She's the one whom I said is working at the Provincial Hospital. Her other name is Adelaide. MR MAPOMA Thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAPOMA CHAIRPERSON Yes thank you, you're excused WITNESS EXCUSED MR MSIBI Thank you Chairperson. I would just like to say something. CHAIRPERSON Has it got to do with your injury? MR MSIBI That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Let us hear. MR MSIBI What hurts me, Chairperson, the Committee and everybody present here, is that I was abused not being member of any political party. One of the things I would like to point out is that I thought I would get the truth here as to what happened but nobody spoke the truth. Gushu himself the one who shot at us, he doesn't know me, not do I. He never spoke the truth here and that hurts. I'm a peaceful person and I'm prepared to make peace with him but what I find very strange that we are strangers. He never came to me to apologise not even to say listen I wronged you I'm very sorry. He never did that. CHAIRPERSON But he intends to put that right. He said he's going to set about setting that matter right. MR MSIBI Chairperson, he should also retract from the reference to me as a puppet. What he explained here...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON When you people talk and make your peace, those are issues you can talk about. I can't force him to do anything like that. That's not the purpose of this forum but I certainly hope that if it's going to bring peace between the two of you when you raise it that he will retract it. I can only encourage him to do it if that is going to go anywhere near making peace. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Chairperson. There will be peace yes provided he tells the truth. I was not in conflict with him, I was shot, I am still maintaining that I am for peace. They gave him wrong information. They didn't come to me to verify it and I still maintain that he did not divulge the truth here. That's what he should do - divulge the truth. CHAIRPERSON I will note that. MR MSIBI Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Is that all Madam? MRS VAN DER WALT That is all thank you sir. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH Thank you Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh I would appreciate it if it's one victim per incident. I don't think we want four witnesses to testify to one incident because everybody cannot be victims. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I can indicate that I have on my list seven people whom I would like to call on. CHAIRPERSON You better make it quick because it seems to be increasing the more time you get. MR HATTINGH If we might start straight away? With your permission I would beg leave to call Elias Zwane. Elias Zwane would be the brother of the late Jwi Zwane. Mr Chairman, may I also make the use of the opportunity to make available the documents that I would like hand to the Committee. I'm not before lunch going to refer to those documents. CHAIRPERSON You say not before lunch? MR HATTINGH Let's say I'm not going to refer to those documents before one o'clock. CHAIRPERSON We'll probably sit right through. CHAIRPERSON Mr Zwane what language would you like to use? MR ZWANE I'll testify in Zulu. ELIAS ZWANE (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh, I'm going to appeal to you also to keep it straight on the narrow as far as victims is concerned. EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Mr Zwane, is it correct that you were the brother of the late Jwi Zwane? MR ZWANE That is correct. MR HATTINGH Are you a business man in this area? MR ZWANE That is correct. MR HATTINGH And at the time of the killing of Jwi Zwane were you in business then? MR ZWANE That is correct. MR HATTINGH What kind of business and how many businesses and where were you in business? MR ZWANE From 1986 I have about twelve shops. MR HATTINGH In this area? MR ZWANE Two at the ....[indistinct] border gate, two in Piet Retief and I have six in Ermelo. MR HATTINGH Mr Zwane tell the Committee - your brother the late Jwi Zwane, was he married? MR ZWANE No he wasn't. MR HATTINGH Do you know whether he had any dependents? MR ZWANE Yes he had eight kids. MR HATTINGH What happened to those eight children from the time that he got killed? MR ZWANE They stay with me. MR HATTINGH Are you now responsible for looking after them? CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh, can you ask your attorney to get the names, full names of those children. INTERPRETER Excuse me there's something wrong with the equipment there, the interpreter can't get anything from the floor. CHAIRPERSON And get the full names and get it to us before we adjourn today. Mr Zwane, if those children are declared victims is the TRC able to communicate with them at your address? MR ZWANE Yes that is correct. CHAIRPERSON What is that? MR ZWANE My address is 2671. CHAIRPERSON Ermelo? MR ZWANE Wesselton. 2671 Wesselton. CHAIRPERSON Yes, now tell me, how do you feel about the death of your brother? MR ZWANE I feel very bad. CHAIRPERSON How is - are his children being effected by his death? I'm sure they are. MR ZWANE Yes they were adversely effected. As a result I wanted to show each and every one of the perpetrators and show the kids to them and ask them if they are happy and satisfied with the results that they got out of killing their father. CHAIRPERSON How old are - what's the range of the ages of these children? MR ZWANE The youngest is ten years old. CHAIRPERSON All of them less than ten? MR ZWANE The youngest is ten years old. The others are fourteen, fifteen, sixteen. CHAIRPERSON What's the oldest one? MR ZWANE He or she is twenty two years old. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh will you include the ages of those names please? MR HATTINGH I'll do so Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Things have happened in Ermelo, rightly or wrongly. What is your attitude towards restoring the fibre of the community here in Ermelo? MR ZWANE I never had a problem with the community, it's the community that had a problem with me. CHAIRPERSON But now that things have happened, are you prepared to allow the community to make peace with you and you with the community? MR ZWANE Yes I am prepared but I'm only prepared on condition the perpetrators speak the truth. CHAIRPERSON Otherwise you won't? MR ZWANE No I will not be able to because they're still hiding the facts. CHAIRPERSON Were you present when your brother was killed. MR ZWANE No I was not but it was reported to me at a later stage and I went to the scene. CHAIRPERSON So how do you know they're not telling the truth? MR ZWANE The person who killed him is not telling the truth as to how it happened. CHAIRPERSON Why do you say so, you weren't there? MR ZWANE Yes, I wasn't there. CHAIRPERSON So how can you say he's not telling the truth? MR ZWANE I got the story from the one who related it to me and when I went to check I could see that the one who was telling me was the one who told me the truth before and not the one who testified. CHAIRPERSON Do you not see yourself clear or your way clear despite what has happened before, despite what has happened in this hearing, to participate in a process to restore this community to what it should have been and what it was and what it should be? MR ZWANE No I do not see my way clear because there's no order that was issued, they were just on their own frolic. CHAIRPERSON That may be so as far as you're concerned. How are we going to live together in Ermelo if we're still going to fight with each other? Don't you think it's time for us to make peace despite what has happened before? How can we carry on and on killing each other? MR ZWANE I think, Chairperson, there were instances whereby I could not get what you mean or what you meant because at some stages you refused other people permission to say whatever they wanted to say and as long as you're still refusing them permission to do so I don't see us reconciling. CHAIRPERSON Mr Zwane, let me put it this way, you cannot blame this Committee for anything and even - are you suggesting that if certain things are allowed in this hearing you would be prepared to reconcile? Is that what you're saying? MR ZWANE It's true that we can't allow everybody to come and say whatever he or she pleases, you have to select but there is a lot of evidence that you did not allow to be led you just were selective with regard to what you wanted to listen to. CHAIRPERSON Mr Zwane I'm not going to allow you to ridicule this Committee. If that's the reason you've come here to testify then I'm not going to allow you to do that. Do you understand? You've been allowed here to testify as a victim on behalf of the children and if you have gripes with the community with whom you don't wish to reconcile so be it then. I'm only finding out as to whether you are willing to do so. Do you understand? MR ZWANE I'm not ...[indistinct] the Committee because it has come to assist us. CHAIRPERSON Now let us get back to your attitude. Never mind what has happened in the community before. Forget about what has happened in this hearing, who said what. Whether in your view the truth wasn't spoken. All I'm asking you - can we carry on hating and fighting with each other from now on? Is life - if life so cheap? Shouldn't we stop all this and make friends and get on with our lives as it should be? MR ZWANE Yes there should be negotiations. CHAIRPERSON For a start are you willing to be part of that? MR ZWANE I'm not interested. CHAIRPERSON Yes, is there anything else you would like to raise? MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Zwane, just to get back to your brother. Was your brother working at the time when he got killed? MR ZWANE Yes he was working at my shop, my businesses. MR HATTINGH Where was he staying at the time? Where was he living? MR ZWANE He had hired or he was leasing some place in somebody else's yard. MR HATTINGH You attended most of this hearing, is that correct? MR ZWANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Carry on. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. You attended most of the hearing and you heard everything that was said about your brother Jwi Zwane by the applicants? MR ZWANE Yes I did. MR HATTINGH In short can you tell this Committee anything about those allegations about your brother Jwi Zwane? CHAIRPERSON Well, was he a member of the Black Cats? MR ZWANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And was he a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party? MR ZWANE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON What was the job of the - what did the Black Cats do? MR ZWANE That's a very difficult question for me because the Black Cats were established by the ANC. CHAIRPERSON But I'm going to request - I'm going to request that the public allow us to continue our job. Please don't interrupt us. But surely you can tell us what the Black Cats do because your brother was a member of that Black Cat group? MR ZWANE We chose members of the Black Cats at a stadium as an organisation. We did not call the Black Cats - these were not the Black Cats, I don't know what they called them. We told them that we do not want them within the community. I think there was a meeting, managers meeting. They called members of the Black Cats, they said they wanted to speak to them. CHAIRPERSON Mr Zwane can I just - all I'm asking that in view of the fact that your brother was a member of the Black Cats as you say, what did these Black Cats do. I'm not asking who chose them and how they were formed. What did the Black Cats do? MR ZWANE It was mainly to rob people, they were thugs. CHAIRPERSON I see and I didn't get your answer, was your brother a member of the Inkatha Freedom Party? MR ZWANE He was first an ANC member then he ended up being a member of Inkatha. CHAIRPERSON Yes Mr Hattingh. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Zwane, when you gave me instructions in this matter when it was said that the motive for the killing of your brother was political you indicated to me that in your mind the motive was something else, on a personal level between yourself and Mr John Mndebele. Something about your businesses. Could you just explain that? MR ZWANE This is a very long story but I was told to make it brief. CHAIRPERSON Don't you want to lead him? MR ZWANE This started during the year 1986 when I opened up my shop. MR HATTINGH Mr Zwane, if we could be somewhat brief about this. How long do you know Mr John Mndebele? MR ZWANE A long time. MR HATTINGH When did the first problems start? MR ZWANE I never had a problem with him. MR HATTINGH Were there any problems between you and Mr John Mndebele? MR ZWANE This started whilst Jwi was still alive because the comrades would come to the shop looking for Jwi. MR HATTINGH Yes, carry on? MR ZWANE Then the other time they couldn't get him and they burnt down my shop. They burnt my shop about 10 times. ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Zwane, why do you say your brother was killed? MR ZWANE He was killed because he was working at my shop. CHAIRPERSON Is that the only reason? MR ZWANE That is the only reason. MR HATTINGH Just one last thing, the role that Mr John Mndebele played in the society here or in the community, could you just briefly tell the Committee about it, as far as you saw it? INTERPRETER Can the witness please repeat the answer, the Interpreter did not get it. CHAIRPERSON Can you repeat the answer please? MR ZWANE Anyone who was against him was in trouble. MR HATTINGH Mr Zwane, is there anything further that you would like to say? MR ZWANE No, I don't think there is something else because we have limits here. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I have no further questions but perhaps if you in your wisdom would end this witness' testimony, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Any questions from anybody? None? Mr Zwane, I'm going to make an appeal to you. It seems that you do carry a bit of influence in a section of the community of Ermelo at least, is there no way in which you can see your way clear in participation in a process to end this madness of killing people and destroying their property? There are children that need education and they can't be educated in this atmosphere. There are people who need to live in a good society, they can't in this society. Is there no way you can see your way clear in participating in a process to restore what was here and what should be here? MR ZWANE There is something that I can do. CHAIRPERSON What? MR ZWANE To negotiate with the other side and see what we do so as to stabilise the situation and to go back to the old way and try to solve the problems without killing the people. CHAIRPERSON That's good for a start, but you must also realise that when you talk about a society, society can't exist on an agreement, it goes further than an agreement, it goes to co-existence, not so? Is that what you've got in mind? MR ZWANE Yes, that is what I think. CHAIRPERSON Well hopefully something can be done in the near future where all those have promised here in this public hearing will keep to their promises and let's get a process started at least where this unacceptable nonsense will stop, would you agree? MR ZWANE Yes, I do agree. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Sir. WITNESS EXCUSED MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, the next witness with your permission, Olga Sibiya. She is the mother of Advice Gwala. CHAIRPERSON Which language would you prefer to speak? MRS SIBIYA siZulu. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any objections to taking the oath? MRS SIBIYA I don't have any objections but I don't know why I am supposed to take the oath. CHAIRPERSON When you give evidence you give evidence under oath, have you got a problem with that? MRS SIBIYA I don't. CHAIRPERSON Do you want to give evidence? MRS SIBIYA There is no evidence that I'm going to lead but it was a question that I wanted to ask. CHAIRPERSON Well it could develop into evidence then. I think it would be preferable if you do take the oath and then we can deal with your question. Are you satisfied with that? MRS SIBIYA (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON What is it you wanted to ask? MRS SIBIYA I wanted to hear with regard to my child. CHAIRPERSON What about him, how he died? MRS SIBIYA With regard to the manner in which he died because I am not satisfied by the testimony that has been rendered before this Committee. I went to his case, that is from Natal to this place, but now it's only now that I get an explanation that I did not get before. But some of the evidence that was led in court is not or hasn't been led in this Committee. For instance, that Mr Gushu testified to the effect that he killed my son outside the car and as he killed my son outside the car, he led testimony to the fact that he was standing opposite him. I would like to know as to the fact that if he killed him whilst he was outside the car, how come the car was riddled with bullets? Who was he shooting inside the car or who was he aiming at inside the car? That is the first question that I want to pose. Secondly, according to my knowledge Gushu was standing under a tree opposite the kitchen door. That is where my son went out. His kids first went out, three kids, and they got into the car. The first-born was six years old, the other one was one year and nine months old and the third one was six months old. They went out with their mother who put them in the car and shut the door and went back into the house. Whilst she was inside the house the father of the kids went out to the car because there was a kid who was crying and that kid wanted to get into the car and when he got into the car Gushu started shooting, having seen the kids inside the car. I would like to know as to what aim he had with regard to the kids because up till today the other one was psychologically affected or mentally disturbed. Thirdly, I would like to know as to how many times he shot him. CHAIRPERSON On the third question, Mrs Sibiya, was there no doctor's report? I'm just asking, I don't know if you know. MRS SIBIYA What makes me ask is that he said he shot my son whilst he was outside the car but the car itself was riddled with bullets, even the house itself was riddled with bullets. I don't know whether he was still shooting my son or he wanted to kill us all. CHAIRPERSON Is that all? MRS SIBIYA Yes, that is all besides this court issue. In court Gushu said he was sent or directed by Mr Mabena to kill my son and when I got in here he gave testimony to the effect that Jabu Mkhwanazi directed him to do that. Now as to who gave the order remains a mystery. I came across JJ Mabena, I was from Durban having come to Mbalendle. They talked and their friends, but it comes as a surprise to me that he actually issued the order that my son be killed. Now I want JJ to explain as to how he could issue such an order. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh, will a similar exercise be done in respect of the children of Mr Gwala? MR HATTINGH ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON Mrs Sibiya, you must correct me if I'm mistaken, it seems that most of the questions you ask are related to evidence that was given in the criminal trial, am I right? MRS SIBIYA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now unfortunately I wasn't present at the time and in order to appreciate the position I must add that as far as I know, I could gage, most of these accused pleaded not guilty in the trial, if at all. And it follows they would not tell the truth if we have regard for what they say today or in this hearing, do you follow so far? MRS SIBIYA Yes, I do follow but now I'm asking with relation to this hearing because Mkhwanazi testified, that was not a court statement but it was his own testimony that he spoke to Mabena that Advice should be killed. CHAIRPERSON I'm coming to that. Now to what extend people have not told the truth in the criminal case one never knows. It is obvious that they did not tell the truth in order to get acquittals, but when they come to this forum, into this hearing, they take advantage of an opportunity that has been provided. I know not all the people support this system, I'm aware of that but the fact of the matter is that it is here and it is available to people to come to this hearing and make application for amnesty. They are supposed to tell the truth. Even then one cannot guarantee that the whole truth will come out, hopefully it will. Each of the applicants here have conceded, some in my view unnecessarily, that they were guilty of murder and suchlike crimes. I don't know, I can understand your questions but to compare what was said in the criminal trial to what was said here is likely to give one doubts, as you can understand. I don't know if it would not be more suitable to want to find out the political reasons, the political motives why people were killed as opposed to what happened at the scene of the incident because we are going to go around arguing with each other about the factors and the facts as it happened then and in my view it doesn't get us very far. Perhaps one should question whether there was really a political motive or not to justify that killing. I'm not saying that killing in any way can be justified but the law has taken cognisance of that possibility. I can understand also that you are angry, you've lost a son. I think there are many people in this country who suffered the same heartache. Having said that, I don't know if anyone of us are able to answer these questions for you. It is good to have got it off your chest, to have got it out of your system to have asked the question. One can only hope that it will help to sooth the pain that you obviously are experiencing. That is about all that I can say about the issue and to repeat that I don't know whether anyone of us is able to answer those questions. Mr JJ Mabena you've heard this morning, his matter has been postponed to another hearing. Perhaps I can ask the evidence leader to note your name and address so that you are informed when Mr JJ Mabena is going to testify on this issue. I hope that will help, that you will be informed of that opportunity to go and find out and perhaps even get him to answer such questions that you have. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. Mrs Sibiya, the three children of the late Advice Gwala, were they physically injured in the incident? MRS SIBIYA No, they were not physically injured but the other one I think is psychologically affected or disturbed because after their father's death just after the funeral, each time this child sees a white car he or she runs after that white car saying: "Here comes my father". As long as there is a white car that is travelling along the streets she chases after the car. I would like to get some help with regard to that. I do not know what to do with Mabena, Mkhwanazi and Gushu. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Sibiya, are you looking after those children now? MRS SIBIYA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON So that if the Committee needs to contact anybody in respect of the welfare of those children, are you the person that they must contact? MRS SIBIYA That is correct. CHAIRPERSON What address would that be? MRS SIBIYA It's number 18, Tunner Road. CHAIRPERSON Spell that please. MRS SIBIYA T-U-N-N-E-R. CHAIRPERSON T-U-N-N-E-R Road. MRS SIBIYA Yes. Empangeni. CHAIRPERSON Any other Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I have no questions. Perhaps I would just like to ask the witness whether she has something more to say. CHAIRPERSON I'll do that. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman, then no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON I assume there is nobody else that wants to ask this witness questions. Mrs Sibiya, is there anything else you would like to say? CHAIRPERSON Thank you for your interest in the matter. WITNESS EXCUSED MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. With your permission, Matthew Gwala. He is the brother of the deceased, Advice Gwala. The reason why I'm calling on him is not as a victim but as on the merits of the matter. With him too I don't believe that we are going to be spending a lot of time. CHAIRPERSON Was he present? MR HATTINGH Not at the incident, no Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON So how can it effect the merits? MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, on the basis of the motive, the alleged motive. If - Mr Chairman, I am in your hands, I ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON I appreciate your position, you've probably been, for what of a better word: "harassed" to allow the evidence. You know one gets tangled in the law and not everybody understands the law and this is specifically for victims and in the case of the deceased Mr Gwala we have established who those victims are and we have had a witness on behalf of those three children. How long is he going to be? I don't know why he wants to come and testify. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I don't think we're going to spend more that five or ten minutes with him. I really think that we're not going to serve a good purpose if we keep them away from getting things off their chest. CHAIRPERSON Call him, call him. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Gwala, what language would you prefer to speak? MR GWALA siZulu. CHAIRPERSON Very well, do you have any objection to the taking of the oath? MATTHEW GWALA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Gwala, is it correct that you are the brother of the late Advice Gwala and that you attended this hearing and you listened to all the evidence of the applicants? MR GWALA Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Is it further correct that prior to the incident where your brother got killed, that you stayed with him for a period at his house? MR GWALA Yes, that is correct. As Gushu led his evidence he knows us very well, we were together at Mbalendle. He died after only two months whilst I was in Empangeni. MR HATTINGH Were you still staying with your brother, Advice Gwala, when he got killed? MR GWALA I had already left. I left in August and he died during November, I think it was the 4th of November. MR HATTINGH Can you just briefly give this Committee some indication as to what the situation was in that particular area where Advice Gwala lived during that period? MR GWALA It's shocking to hear that there was violence at Mbalendle. At that stage there was absolutely no violence at Mbalendle. What was there at Mbalendle was that the people were mixing and they had absolutely no problem, there was no violence. Maybe what disturbed members of the community was that other people suspected each other insofar as politics were concerned but these was absolutely no violence at Mbalendle. It was a relatively quiet place. The only problem with Mbalendle was thugism or gangsterism and that would happen during the night not during the day. Gushu himself knows that we used to move around, go to shebeens, drink, have a wonderful time. I met Gushu through Raymond Bopela, that is where Advice Gwala was staying, at Bopela's place. During those days I was not employed so they used to buy liquor for me because they were working and we had absolutely no problem. At times we would visit different places and now he is denying that he knows my brother. It came as a shock to me. MR HATTINGH So you say that Gushu did know your brother, Advice Gwala, before he killed him? MR GWALA He knew him very well. MR HATTINGH The role that your brother played in the area, you've heard all the allegations of his involvement in the friction that occurred in the area, what are your comments in that regard? MR GWALA These are blue lies. I won't put it in any other manner as to say it was a mistake. It's just a blue lie. As I've already explained that Mbalendle never had a problem at any stage so Gushu was telling lies. All the evidence that he rendered was lies and my brother's never been involved in Black Chain gang, I don't even know those Black Chain gangs. I used to be with my brother every time and everywhere. At times we would go to meetings that were addressed by Mr Mabena. It never ever happened that he got involved with the Black Chain gang. He was involved with UWUSA at one stage and I told him that he should stop being involved in politics, he should just look for a job and he ended up working for a company that was based in Pretoria. I think he was working at Evander. MR HATTINGH Nevertheless, was Advice Gwala involved in politics at the time? MR GWALA He was a member of Inkatha but due to the fact that Mbalendle was not active he was also rendered inactive. MR HATTINGH You've heard the motive for the killing of your brother, do you have any comments in that regard? Just briefly. MR GWALA All the evidence that Gushu rendered with regard to the VAT boycott, that is a blue lie because he never did that. He never at any stage advocated for the payment of VAT. Maybe Gushu could tell us more with regard to that. I think Gushu has got a personal problem with Advice Gwala because Gushu knew my brother very well but all of a sudden when he renders his evidence he claims that he never knew my brother. That is what makes me believe that the there was absolutely no political motive or objective because if Gushu said he was sent by a political group because maybe they feared that he was going to rally people to join Inkatha, but now he's talking about VAT matters and he testified to the effect that he does not know Advice Gwala, that's a blue lie. ADV SANDI Are you going to be asking a question on a different aspect? MR HATTINGH No, Mr Chairman, I have finished my questions but once again I would just like to ask you to terminate the examination of the witness, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Any questions from others? MR BLACK Mr Chairman, there's just something I want to clear up. Mr Gwala, this evidence which you've just given to the Committee now about Mr Gushu knowing your brother very well and socialising on occasions with him, did you tell this to Mr Hattingh? MR GWALA No, I never told him because I never got a chance to consult with Mr Hattingh because the session had already started when I came. MR BLACK Yes, but you heard Mr Gushu's evidence I gather? MR GWALA Yes, I did. MR BLACK Not of this was every put to Mr Gushu to give him an opportunity to comment on it, so I'm just putting that to you. You didn't ...[intervention] MR GWALA If I'm not mistaken that question was posed and it was put to Gushu and Gushu answered that he only knew the car as well as the number plate and he further pointed out that he did not know my brother personally. That is where my problem lies because Gushu was not telling the truth. We are here to speak the truth and what is written there is that truth is the road to reconciliation. What are you going to reconcile if there is no truth? CHAIRPERSON Is that all Mr Black? MR BLACK Mr Chairman, obviously from a legal point of view, I'll address the court on that. CHAIRPERSON Mr Gwala, is there anything else you have to say? MR GWALA I would like to voice my feelings with your permission Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON If there's anything you haven't said before, please say it but if you've said it then I've heard it. MR GWALA No, it's not something that I have said, it's the feeling that we have as black people. What I would like to import to this Committee, I have a belief that we have come here to try and reconcile. Now with regard to the applicants, I think it is better for them to tell the truth so that we can be able to reconcile. We regard ourselves as the victims, direct or indirect. Now I would like to tell my brothers and sisters that in such matters, it is detrimental to the community for us to conduct ourselves like animals. I think this is a place that we need to respect and conduct ourselves accordingly and listen to the testimony that is rendered and thereafter we can voice out our comments. It is not good for us to start clapping hands and to start mocking because we are impressed with a certain speaker. This is my personal feeling. I think as people we have got to tolerate each other and realise that whatever we have come here to discuss, by they time we go out we have reconciled because we have shown some tolerance, thank you very much Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON I thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, are we not going to take a break? CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR HATTINGH May I then just ask for a five minute break to consult with the next witness before we carry on. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR HATTINGH Three witnesses. We've gone through three and in the end it will only be six. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] COMMITTEE ADJOURNS ON RESUMPTION MR PRINSLOO Mr Chairman, I omitted to mention the name of a dependant of the deceased Themba Mlangeni. He has got a minor child of 15 years of age. He is in the care of the same person, Bheki Mlangeni, the brother of the deceased. May I just give the name to the Commission? It's a 15 years old boy, his name is Mfanmpela Mlangeni, spelt: M-F-A-N-M-P-E-L-A Mlangeni, 15 years, ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR PRINSLOO Mfanmpela Mlangeni, born on the 15th of October 1983. It's the same address Mr Chairman, thank you Mr Chairman. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, before we proceed, may I just then at this stage hand up the bundle of documents which I made available to the other legal representatives. The next witness will be Thembisile Nkambule and I beg leave to call her. CHAIRPERSON Shall we make this and Exhibit?? MR HATTINGH B I believe. I believe there was an Exhibit A and then this will be B and it's marked from pages 1 to 22. Sorry, I understand from Mr Zuka Mapoma that it is Exhibit 2. CHAIRPERSON Can somebody close that door please. Miss Nkambule, what language would you like to speak? MS NKAMBULE siZulu. CHAIRPERSON Do you have any objections to taking the oath? THEMBISILE NKAMBULE (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Miss Nkambule, is it correct that you are the sister of the lady that got killed on the 12th of April 1992, together with Chris Ngwenya? MS NKAMBULE Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH And that you were also involved in that incident and that you got injured? MS NKAMBULE Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH Is it further correct that this incident occurred towards the evening of that day? MS NKAMBULE That is correct. MR HATTINGH Would you please go ahead and tell the Committee what exactly occurred during that incident? MS NKAMBULE It was on the 12th of April 1992, on a Sunday I think, if I still remember very well. We were coming from home at the hostel, myself, my sister Lindiwe who is now deceased and my brother-in-law, Chris Ngwenya. When we approached the cafe just before we took the corner Motopeng Street, we saw two males standing there. The one was on the left and the other one was on the right next to the disco ...[intervention] MR HATTINGH Miss Nkambule, just slow down a bit. When you came down the street ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Do you want to stand down to recover and we can carry on with somebody else? MS NKAMBULE I can continue. CHAIRPERSON Are you sure? I don't mind standing down. MS NKAMBULE Yes, I'm sure. CHAIRPERSON Okay. MR HATTINGH Before you carry on, I would please ask you to just speak slowly to enable the Interpreter to also interpret for us. When you came down the street with Lindiwe and Chris, how were you walking as a group? MS NKAMBULE When we got into that road my brother-in-law was in front on the left, my sister was in the middle and myself on the side. When we took the corner at the street we were coming from upwards towards Motopeng Street and when we were just in the middle of these two men whom I didn't know then, gunshots started firing ...[intervention] MR HATTINGH Before you carry on, can you stop there please. At the time when you met the people or you reached the people who were eventually to shoot at you, were you and Chris and Lindiwe walking next to each other or what was the position? MS NKAMBULE No, we were not so close as to touch each other, each one was walking freely and separately but together. MR HATTINGH Side by side or behind each other? MS NKAMBULE No, we were walking side by side. MR HATTINGH Did you see the two people before they started to shoot? MS NKAMBULE We approached and we saw them. MR HATTINGH Where did you see them? CHAIRPERSON She said: "Standing on either side of the disco". When they got inbetween them they were shot at. MR HATTINGH Carry on. MS NKAMBULE And when we were in the middle of these two men they started shooting and we fled as we(?) starting shooting. Myself and my brother-in-law took the direction downwards and my ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What do you mean: "downwards", from this direction you came from or how? MS NKAMBULE We were approaching a place that looked like a playground in open space. CHAIRPERSON Yes. MS NKAMBULE And as we were running away, I had not been shot at the time. I was carrying a pot and as I was running I could feel that my leg was now being affected. I threw the pot away and ahead of me there was some sparkle of fire on the pavement. I ran away right up to Mr Mhlango's shop. I got into the shop and related the story to him, during which time he telephoned the police and he suggested that I should not stay there because he was afraid. He did not know the people and they might follow me into the shop. I got out of the shop through the back door and continued running. I got into a house next door, hid myself in the toilet. One person of the household came to the toilet. I stood up afraid as I was, not knowing what was happening and the person who was standing outside the door realised that there was a person inside. The person shouted, indicating that there was somebody in the toilet. Police came. I went back and my brother-in-law was already lying down but at the time I didn't know where my sister was. I indicated to the police that I didn't know where my sister was. They requested that I get into the ambulance and I refused. At the time I hadn't felt the pain but had realised that I got injured. The ambulance attendant wanted to know why I was not getting into the ambulance and I indicated to them that I was afraid because people were being finished off at the hospitals at the time. These people came back later in a white van accompanied by the police. They took me to the hospital where I was under police guard. On that very same evening I was not able to sleep because police keep coming to take statements from me. I had not known the killer at the time and on the following morning when I was supposed to go for an operation with an intention of checking as to whether the bullet was lodged in me or not, there was a group of ANC woman who came saying I should not be admitted to the hospital, I should be removed. People were present refusing permission, people who wanted to come in and see me. I left the hospital without have been healed because the nurses were afraid, seeing that there were allegations that I was a member of the Black Cats. After the operation two days thereafter, I tried to got to the toilet but the stitches got off and they couldn't sew back the stitches. That is how I was discharged back home. The police often came home, that is the detectives trying to get information from me and right up until 1994 when they came to inform me that the killer had been apprehended. MR HATTINGH Do you know with how many shots you were hits? MS NKAMBULE I don't know. I could not count because I was confused and shocked. MR HATTINGH What injuries did you suffer? MS NKAMBULE Would you please explain? CHAIRPERSON Afterwards, how many scars or scabs, or couldn't you find out how many injuries you'd sustained? MS NKAMBULE I sustained one scar on the thigh because the bullet got through my thigh from the back and exited on the front. CHAIRPERSON So you were hit once? MS NKAMBULE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now when were running and you were hit, how far was Ngwenya from you? MS NKAMBULE He was already lying down when I was shot as I was running. CHAIRPERSON He would obviously then have been behind you? MS NKAMBULE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Did you see him fall? MS NKAMBULE No, I only saw once he was lying down. CHAIRPERSON Did you run past him when he was on the ground? MS NKAMBULE Chairperson, I would like to explain. When I threw the pot away I looked back and realised that he was lying down. CHAIRPERSON And your sister? MS NKAMBULE I couldn't see where she had disappeared into and I only heard about her when I was in hospital because for the first time when people came to me in hospital they didn't want to tell me the truth, people like Mtetwa. They were afraid that this was going to affect me seeing that I was still awaiting an operation and they only told me later that she was in the mortuary. CHAIRPERSON When you heard these sounds of gunshots you turned and ran away and you know that Ngwenya was running in the same direction with you, but when you turned around after having thrown the pot away you saw him lying on the ground, do I understand you correctly? MS NKAMBULE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Do you know in which direction your sister ran when you first heard the shots or can't you say? MS NKAMBULE When I saw her last she was taking a direction toward my brother-in-law's place. CHAIRPERSON Would that be in the same direction you were running or some different direction? MS NKAMBULE No. CHAIRPERSON Some other direction to what you were running? MS NKAMBULE She was proceeding towards where we were headed. She went straight to my brother-in-law's place and we took the direction towards the grounds. CHAIRPERSON I see. And you don't know when she was injured? MS NKAMBULE No, I have no idea at all. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Hattingh, any more questions? MR HATTINGH Just confirmation. When you were hit, was that after you had thrown down the pots? CHAIRPERSON No, she said she threw the pot down because she was hit, when she felt there was something wrong with her leg. MR HATTINGH Do you still suffer from any problems today with your leg? MS NKAMBULE Yes, because since then my leg was never the same because I was not even offered any help at the hospital. My leg is no longer the same. For example, when it is cold it is affected. For example, I was playing soccer on Monday and I was affected and I could not walk thereafter. MR HATTINGH Then if we just turn to page 11 of Exhibit B, that will be your statement. In paragraph 3 thereof, the last sentence you say words to the effect that you identified the one person as being an employee of Mr John Mndebele. MS NKAMBULE That is correct. MR HATTINGH Who was this person? MS NKAMBULE The one person that I identified was Mzala. MR HATTINGH Is that his nickname? MS NKAMBULE I don't know whether that's his nickname or not but that is one name that was used in the township. The same name is still being used. MR HATTINGH Just lastly, when the people started to shoot at you, just to confirm, were they in front of you or to your side or at your back? MS NKAMBULE One of them was on the side and the other one was on the other side and we were in the middle of both. MR HATTINGH Just indicate, Chris and Lindiwe, did they have children? MS NKAMBULE Yes. MR HATTINGH What is the present position with their children? What happened to them? MS NKAMBULE They are in a terrible state because they are now under the care of my unemployed uncle. They are just children who are living in the mercy of the Lord because the deceased died pregnant. MR HATTINGH How old are the children? CHAIRPERSON Mr Hattingh, I will accept your attorney's list with their ages. I need an address though and I want it before we go home. MR HATTINGH Then just lastly, your mother was involved in this hearing until some stage, is that correct? CHAIRPERSON Of what relevance is that Mr Hattingh, she's no longer involved? MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I'll skip that question. Were you approached at any stage by anyone to withdraw your opposition to the applications? MS NKAMBULE No, no. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK Yes, Mr Chairman, I want to just clear up two matters here. Miss Nkambule, would you look at that document that you're holding in front of you there. That is a statement which you made to the police under oath, is t hat correct? And have you been through that statement? MS NKAMBULE That is correct. MR BLACK Now from what I gather from the statement in paragraph 3, page 11, you say that you definitely recognised a man called Mzala and as I read that statement as a whole, he was the man that was wearing this orange coloured jacket, is that correct? MS NKAMBULE I said I identified him as wearing that jacket and I identified him to be perhaps the same person as Mzala. MR BLACK No, you said you definitely immediately recognised this man as Mzala. Are you aware of the fact that Mzala was arrested for this offence? MS NKAMBULE I disagree with that. MR BLACK I put it to you that Mzala was arrested and acquitted on these counts, do you know anything about that? MS NKAMBULE I would like to explain to you what I know. You are saying I saw him. I am saying here, the person looked like Mzala and they asked me the same question in court and I indicated to them that I only recognised him and thought of him as Mzala. Mzala himself came to my home to ask me why I had mistaken him for the people who were shooting. I indicated to him that I had mistaken him for the people who were shooting because of the jacket similar to the one he has. MR BLACK Okay, no, but the point I'm getting at is just that Mzala was arrested and acquitted ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Why make the point Mr Black. MR BLACK I just want to clear this up, who Mzala is because it was kept on ...[indistinct] to some. I'll move onto the next issue. CHAIRPERSON Didn't Mzala come and say he was party to the shooting? MR BLACK No, not at all. CHAIRPERSON Well then he's not before this Committee? MR BLACK Yes. If I just carry on. If we just move down your statement, say at paragraph 6, let's get to that paragraph. In paragraph 5 you said you went into Mr Mhlango's shop okay? MS NKAMBULE That is correct. MR BLACK And you go on in paragraph 6 that you noticed that you had blood mark on your rear side of your thigh and Mr Mhlango then telephoned the police and the police arrived, you see that? MS NKAMBULE Yes, I do see that and that is correct. MR BLACK You then say that when you came out of the shop then you found that Chris was lying on a piece of open ground in front of the shop and I assume that this is the shop that you'd run into, that's Mr Mhlango's shop? That's how the statement reads. MS NKAMBULE No, that's not the shop, I would like to explain to you. The one shop in front of which he fell belonged a certain teacher, not Mhlango's shop. Mhlango's shop is the one to which I fled but he fell in front of another shop. I don't know whether you understand. MR BLACK No, that's what I wanted to clear up, that's all I'm trying to do because that's the, you know this is the statement that was written down, possibly by the police, that you. CHAIRPERSON Is that all? MR BLACK Yes, that's all thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK CHAIRPERSON Anybody else? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR PATEL I have a few questions Mr Chair. Miss Nkambule, before I commence any cross-examination, I've been asked by the applicants whom I represent to apologise to you for what happened to you and also to apologise to any other people that have testified before you as victims. Insofar as what you say, I'm a bit confused as to how things happened. Do you understand compass points, north, south, east and west? MS NKAMBULE Yes, I do. CHAIRPERSON Before you carry on Mr Patel, maybe I can cut this whole thing short. In relation to you throwing away that pot that you were carrying, do you know when Chris was injured? MS NKAMBULE I have already explained that I don't know when he really got hurt, what I realised was that he was already lying down, shots were being fired ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON When you threw the pot away? MS NKAMBULE I threw the pot away when I felt something on my leg, I three the pot and I fled. CHAIRPERSON And at the time you turned around and you saw that Chris was lying on the ground? MS NKAMBULE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON I gain the impression that you felt this discomfort after being injured, not necessarily at the exact time you were injured but maybe a couple of seconds or a minute or so afterwards, am I correct? MS NKAMBULE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON And you ran a few metres after feeling this initial discomfort and then you threw this pot away? MS NKAMBULE I threw the pot away when I felt something touching me and I ran away not feeling any pain for some time. I only realised that I was hurt when I got into the shop. CHAIRPERSON I hope that has cut down a bit of the questioning Mr Patel? MR PATEL As it pleases you Mr Chairman. 650 Motopeng Street, this incident took place in Motopeng Street, am I correct? MS NKAMBULE I would like to differ before answering. Initially when you spoke to me you said you have been delegated to apologise on behalf of these people, which signs have they indicated to you, if at all, that they are really sorry and they would like to apologise? MR PATEL Will you answer the question? Will you answer my question? Did this incident take place in Motopeng Street? MS NKAMBULE Yes, that is correct. I am not being impossible, I just want you to answer my question. MR PATEL I am here to ask the questions, you are here to answer them. Do you know where 650 Motopeng Street is? MS NKAMBULE ...[no English translation] MR PATEL I didn't get the translation. MS NKAMBULE I just want to explain to you, maybe you are confused. I just indicated to you that I don't know the numbers, the reason being that I had not stayed there for a very long time, that's why I don't know the numbers. MR PATEL If I understand you correctly, there was one assailant on either side of the group of three ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Mr Patel, can I just ask a question, does what this witness says, does that destroy what your client said? MR PATEL Mr Chairman, this witnesses evidence contradicts what my clients say with regard to her injuries and the death of Lindiwe insofar as she attempts to put them further from Mr Ngwenya who was the target, who my clients, my client's version is that, one of my client's version, is that they were hit accidentally. This witnesses version is to put before the Commission that that version is not correct and that in fact they were hit intentionally. That is the impression I get from the evidence that has been led and put before the Commission. ADV SANDI But Mr Patel, if one is speaking in terms of the chronology of events, what happened to whom and at what stage specifically, I think she says she is unable to say at what stage Chris got hurt. She threw the pot away and when she turned she saw Chris lying on the ground. How does that destroy the version of your client? MR PATEL As I understood her evidence to be, even after the pot was discarded you had shots being fired. This is how I understood her evidence to be and Chris had already fallen. If I'm mistaken in that then I'm mistaken. CHAIRPERSON Were there shots after you threw the pot away? MS NKAMBULE Yes, they continued shooting. I got into the shop and the gunfire continued. ADV SANDI And where was Chris at that stage? MS NKAMBULE He was already lying down. One other thing that I'd like to explain here is that Mr Gushu, as Mr Patel is explaining, Mr Gushu says we were accidentally shot and if that is the case they ought not to have shot me because I had already fled. They should have let me go when I was fleeing, they were not supposed to do anything to me. They shot me at a time when I was a distance away from Chris, that cannot be a mistake. If that was a mistake, really they were not supposed to continue shooting at me. CHAIRPERSON What is your position if they shot at Chris who was behind you in rapid succession and one of the bullets passed him and hit you, by the time you turned around he had fallen. MS NKAMBULE I think if you had had a glimpse of the photographs of the scene of the crime you would understand. CHAIRPERSON Don't answer the question like that now, we're not fighting. I'm asking you whether you can discount the scene I described to you, that you are running, Chris is running virtually in the same direction, as you testified, the target is Chris. They're not only going to shoot him once, they shoot at him a few times. One of the bullets pass him and hit you because you're in front in the general direction of the bullet, can you discount that kind of scene? Because that is what Gushu said. It could be that one of the bullets had passed Ngwenya, struck you? Do you say that can't be true? MS NKAMBULE I understand Chairperson, but I'm not sure, I don't understand. CHAIRPERSON No, you can't understand and not understand. If you don't understand then I must repeat it. You say you ran away in a particular direction, do you understand that? MS NKAMBULE Yes, I do understand. CHAIRPERSON You say when you started to run away Chris ran in the same direction as you were running because you two ran together or started running together, correct? MS NKAMBULE Yes, that is correct. CHAIRPERSON But at some time you were in front of Chris with this pot, correct? MS NKAMBULE That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Now if Chris was their target to be shot and they didn't shoot him only with one shot, they directed a number of shots towards him and one of those shots missed Chris, is it not possible that that shot could have hit you because you were in the general line of fire but in front of Chris? MS NKAMBULE I do understand, I've now answered. CHAIRPERSON Would you discount that scene or would you concede it is a possibility? MS NKAMBULE Yes, I would say that was possible. MR PATEL Thank you Mr Chairman. Miss Nkambule, how many times was your sister shot? MS NKAMBULE I have already explained that I don't know. CHAIRPERSON Ja, I was just going to ask that, she answered that question. MR PATEL As it pleases you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] record of a post-mortem? MR PATEL None that has been put before us except in the Investigation Diary which was part of the other bundle of documents. CHAIRPERSON What does it say? MR PATEL It's Point 7 on the SAP 5 Investigation Diary, that Lindiwe ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON What page is that? MR PATEL It's not part of this bundle that has been given but it's part of those documents that were given to us on the second day. CHAIRPERSON Well we didn't get that but anyway what did it say there? MR PATEL It says that Lindiwe Nkosi was found by Papa Nbokane, 636 Manana Street and Bafana Umkhumalo of 799 Malaza Street. She was lying on her stomach with a chest wound. CHAIRPERSON A chest wound? MR PATEL Shot to the front. CHAIRPERSON Well is that going to be a thing that's common cause? It's the closes I think we've come to an injury to the deceased. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I cannot really say it's common cause, I cannot deny it but I cannot say it's common cause. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] document is it? Who produced that document? MR HATTINGH The document that is being referred to is the Investigating Officer's diary. CHAIRPERSON Who produced that document to this hearing? MR HATTINGH The Evidence Leader. CHAIRPERSON Oh, okay. But you say you cannot deny it also? MR HATTINGH No, we don't have the benefit of the post-mortem so we don't know. CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Patel, is there anything more? MR PATEL One last question Mr Chairman. You will concede, Miss Nkambule, that this event was traumatic for you and that you would have been confused and shocked with regard to the events surrounding it? MS NKAMBULE That is correct. MR PATEL I have no further questions Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR PATEL CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] questions? Yes, thank you, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, pertaining to this incident I would just like to refer you to page 13 and 14 of this new bundle, Exhibit B, the statement of Pindi Mary Jane Yende, in particular paragraphs 3 and 4 thereof where it also deals with this incident, that is the lady at the shop where the previous witness ran into. We're not calling this witness but we're just making it available to the Committee. CHAIRPERSON Have we got one more witness left? MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, one of the witnesses was not here this morning but she apparently arrived in the meantime, Sonto Gertrude Nkosi, the mother of Obed and she will be the next witness. CHAIRPERSON Is she going to testify on the merits Mr Hattingh? MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, no, she is not going to testify on merits. The only thing that she will tell this Committee is that she did visit her son that evening in the hospital and she will tell us what wounds he had a the time and that the next day she was advised that he was killed in hospital. CHAIRPERSON Mrs Nkosi, what language would you like to speak? MRS NKOSI siZulu. CHAIRPERSON Have you any objections to the taking of the oath? MRS NKOSI Yes, I have a problem. CHAIRPERSON What problem? MRS NKOSI I will take the oath. CHAIRPERSON Please stand. SONTO GERTRUDE NKOSI (sworn states) CHAIRPERSON Yes, Mr Hattingh? EXAMINATION BY MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman. Mrs Nkosi, is it correct that Obed Nhlabathi was your son? MRS NKOSI Yes, that is correct. MR HATTINGH At the time of his death, how old was he then? MRS NKOSI He was 17 years old. MR HATTINGH Can we take it that he did not have any dependants at the time of his death? MRS NKOSI No, he didn't have children. MR HATTINGH Is your husband still alive? MRS NKOSI Yes, he is still alive. MR HATTINGH What I first would just like to clarify is that although you are a victim of this particular incident where your son died, is it necessary for your particulars to be entered and referred to the Commission for reparation? CHAIRPERSON What is your full names please and can you spell it? MRS NKOSI Are you talking about my address? CHAIRPERSON Your names first and then your address. MRS NKOSI I am Gertrude, Gertrude Nkosi, Gertrude Sonto Nkosi. CHAIRPERSON What is your address? MRS NKOSI Number 56, Bingubela Hostel. CHAIRPERSON Where is that? MRS NKOSI It's a hostel in Ermelo. CHAIRPERSON Yes, thank you. MR HATTINGH Is it correct that you visited your son in the hospital on the 29th of May 1992? MRS NKOSI Yes, that's correct. MR HATTINGH What was his condition when you saw him in hospital? MRS NKOSI I was also sick. Mtunzi came at about 12 midnight. He told me that Obed was shot next to the disco. I woke up and I went to look for a gentleman who had a car and he took me to the hospital. When I went into the hospital he was asleep. The nurses were stitching him and I asked him what happened. Obed said: "They shot me". He said he was shot by Bongani and I asked the reasons, he said he didn't know, he started crying and I started crying also. The nurses told me not to cry because the bullets were not embedded in the body, they were just on the flesh but he bled profusely. They inserted a drip. We went to the ward, ward number 7 and we undressed him and he put some pyjamas. He told me that he was hungry and I told him that it was already late, the shops were all closed because it was a quarter to two. I promised him that the following day I would bring him some food but he insisted. I told him he must wait until the following day. When I was at the door on my way out I sat down. I sat there. An old man came but I didn't know who he was. He was fat and short. He came and he was driving in a grey car. He asked me where Obed was. He said he was looking for Obed. I didn't respond, I kept quiet. I became afraid. It was about 2 o'clock, 2a.m. We were afraid to go home and we decided to stay there until early in the morning because I didn't trust this man. We left, we went to the graveyard. We went to an, we went up, we went through the graveyard. I went home and I told my mother what happened. I woke up early in the morning and I said I was in a hurry. I wanted to go to my work to tell my bosses that my son was in hospital. When I arrived there at my work my bosses were not there. There was only a child there. I told them that I'm only going to do the washing because I wanted to go to the hospital. I went to the hospital. I brought chips, milk and bread for Obed. When I went into the hospital I went into his ward. I found the people waiting there, waiting for the nurses because they wanted to be discharged. I went past those people and went straight to his ward. The other people were crying inside the ward and I asked the other patients who were there, I asked them about Obed's whereabouts and they asked me if I was related to him. I told that I'm his mother but they said to me: "We won't tell you anything, you better go and ask the nurses". I went to the nurses and I asked them. The nurses kept quiet. I asked again and they kept quiet and I asked again and they said I must come in. They asked me about my relation to Obed. I told them that Obed was my son. I was very worried. The people were still waiting. They wanted to be discharged because they said they wanted to die in their own homes. The nurses told me that Obed passed away and I asked the reason. They said he just died but I said that is not possible. They said he bled, that's why he passed away. I started crying and I got some water to drink and they gave me some tablets. From there I went straight home. MR HATTINGH When you left Obed the previous night, was he already asleep when you left him? MRS NKOSI He was lying facing upwards. MR HATTINGH Was he still awake? MRS NKOSI His eyes were closed but he was not asleep because he had drips all over. MR HATTINGH The wounds that he did have on that previous night when you visited him, would you just describe the wounds, were they on his side, on his arms, on his legs, what did you see? MRS NKOSI The wounds were on the stomach. It means that the bullet came through the front and it went out through the back. That's when I saw him for the first time. The following day I went to the mortuary and I realised that he had another bullet wound on his forehead and the other one was at the back. MR HATTINGH At the hospital that evening, did you see any of Obed's friends there? MRS NKOSI No, there were patients that I didn't know, I didn't identify any of those. I only knew Obed in the ward. MR HATTINGH It was already very late at night, did you see any other people at the hospital, young people apart from patients? MRS NKOSI No, I didn't see anyone. MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, I have no further questions for this witness. I would just like to mention that pages 1 to 10 of Exhibit B pertains to this incident. Page 1 is the certificate of post-morten examination showing the two shot wounds. Page 2 to 5, if I might just say that there are two statements from Selby Sonnyboy Sebusa and Mandla Steven Shongwe who make mention of 10 to 12 people coming to the ward when Obed was killed. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON I take it nobody else has questions? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR BLACK Yes, I have a few questions, thanks Mr Chairman. Mrs Nkosi, you've told us of the terrible thing which happened to your son, but at midnight who came to tell you that Obed was in hospital? What was his name again? MRS NKOSI It was Mtunzi. MR BLACK Mtunzi. Now is Mtunzi a friend of Obed? MRS NKOSI Yes. CHAIRPERSON MR BLACK About the same age? CHAIRPERSON Mr Black, what has this witness said that contradicts your client's version? MR BLACK I just want to clear up something that, who took Obed to the hospital. It seems to be as if ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Well let's find that out. MR BLACK Yes, that's what I'm getting at, thank you. Did Mtunzi tell you who took Obed to the hospital? MRS NKOSI It was Mtunzi who took him to the hospital. MR BLACK And some of Obed's other friends? Did he say that other friends of Obed also went with him to the hospital? MRS NKOSI He went to the hospital with Mtunzi and Cecil. MR BLACK Okay. Another friend of his? MRS NKOSI Yes. MR BLACK Now Mrs Nkosi, at that time you did hear, you were aware of the fact that there were Black Cats and people in the township, is that so? MRS NKOSI Yes. MR BLACK Do you know whether Obed was mixing with some of their friends? MRS NKOSI He was an Inkatha member. MR BLACK Thank you. CHAIRPERSON Does that mean he wasn't a Black Cat? MRS NKOSI I know nothing about the Black Cats, I only know Inkatha. You used to hear people talking about it but I only know Inkatha. MR BLACK I've no further questions than that thanks. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BLACK MR PATEL I have no questions, I've just go a general instruction during lunchtime to apologise once again. On behalf of my clients Mrs Nkosi, we apologise for the bereavement that you've suffered. CHAIRPERSON Mr Kemp? MR KEMP I have no questions Sir. NO QUESTIONS BY MR KEMP CHAIRPERSON It's patience. Miss van der Walt? MS VAN DER WALT No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MS VAN DER WALT MR PRINSLOO No questions, thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PRINSLOO CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible]. Thank you Madam for testifying, you are excused. WITNESS EXCUSED MR HATTINGH Mr Chairman, the last witness will be Ntombi Malinga, the mother of Bongani Malinga. Will she give evidence as a victim, not as witness to the incident? CHAIRPERSON Mrs Malinga, what language would you prefer to speak? MRS MALINGA siZulu. CHAIRPERSON Very well. NTOMBI MALINGA (sworn states) MR HATTINGH Mrs Malinga, is it correct that Bongani Malinga was your son? MRS MALINGA Yes. MR HATTINGH How old was he when he died? MRS MALINGA He was 18 years old. CHAIRPERSON What is your address Mrs Malinga? MRS MALINGA 700 Wesselton Extension. 700 Mofokeng Street, Wesselton Extension. CHAIRPERSON Spell it please, 700, what's the street? MRS MALINGA M-O-F-O-K-E-N-G. CHAIRPERSON Wesselton Extension, Wesselton? MRS MALINGA Yes. MR HATTINGH Is it correct that you cannot really assist the Committee with regard to the circumstances under which your son died? MRS MALINGA I can explain briefly. MR HATTINGH Please go ahead. MRS MALINGA Bongani passed away on a Friday between 3 and 4 o'clock. I didn't know that he went to town to buy some food. When I was at home I heard the people telling me that he passed away, and when we went, when I went there he was already dead. Even the groceries that he had were just scattered all over the place. He was bleeding and it look like the bullet came the other side and went off, came through the other side and went off the other side of the head. MR HATTINGH Was there a criminal trial or anyone prosecuted for the killing of your son? MRS MALINGA The explanation that I got about his death, I heard it when I was here. I used to hear the people talking and because I was not there I never confirmed anything. Even the person who was with him also passed away, even the person who was with him.. MR HATTINGH Who was with your son on the day that he died? MRS MALINGA It was Bongi Kwanasi. MR HATTINGH How do you feel about this incident? MRS MALINGA I'm still hurting because the person who caused this suffering is a child that I used to know. We were together with his parents in the community, but he made me to suffer for the rest of my life. Whereas my house was burnt and Bongani was still busy trying to rebuild, to renovate the house because they said it's because of Bongani. The reason for burning down the house was Bongani. MR HATTINGH Was your son supporting you at the time? MRS MALINGA Yes, he had already started because we were renovating the hostel so that the families can go inside. He was also taking part. On that particular Friday he had just got his wages. MR HATTINGH Do you work? MRS MALINGA No, I'm unemployed. I suffered. In 1990 some people came to attack me after burning down my house. They wanted to kill me. I was affected since then. Even my eyesight is affected. MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HATTINGH CHAIRPERSON Is there anyone who has questions? Francis? ADV BOSMAN No, questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you Mr Malinga. WITNESS EXCUSED CHAIRPERSON Is that it? MR HATTINGH Thank you Mr Chairman, no further witnesses. NO FURTHER WITNESSES TO BE CALLED BY MR HATTINGH MR MAPOMA Nothing further. MR HATTINGH Sorry Mr Chairman, there were further documents annexed to this Annexure. I didn't make particular reference to them but I take it they do form part of the record which will be considered, thank you. CHAIRPERSON It's been a long hearing, two weeks almost and I'd prefer written arguments. These are my directions On behalf of the applicants, in three week's time as from Monday. All the others, five weeks from Monday. Those heads which would apply to the applicants must be also be directed to all the other interested parties here so that they can have an opportunity to read those heads and then reply by the fifth week. Any objections to that? There are two matters that the Committee wishes people who wish to deal to deal with it to be dealt with. 1) The question of whether a revenge attack can nonetheless be described as one committed with a political motive, and while you're at it, whether it would qualify as malicious or not and the same for gangsterism. Any questions? None. I must say before we close that we thank all the people who found it necessary to attend. I just also want to say that these heads must be directed to Cape Town, not to us personally. The head office will see to it that we receive it. I want to say thankyou to the Interpreters and the people responsible for all the electronics that we required in this hearing, the people who were responsible for setting up the venue and all that goes with it. A special thanks to the media for the co-operation, especially in this hearing. And I want to thank all the people who attended this hearing. We appreciate that it is a sensitive matter and I must say, I hope I'm not wrong, but it seems to me that as the hearing progressed the tensions that were quite obvious at the beginning of the hearing had somewhat subsided. I'm very happy about that. You may have heard me on numerous occasions allude to the issue of an uncomplicated life in Ermelo and surrounding areas. A lot has happened in the last couple of years, sometimes extremely painful. For some of us it is not easy to withstand and I talk of both sides of the political spectrum or however many political parties are involved. It is tragic that people were put through this. I don't know what the future holds for us, but this hearing was an attempt to help heal the past and to put everybody on the path to a normal life. I saw this morning a nice small child walk into this hearing. We've got to think of kids like that instead of posturing politically because when we are gone and dead we can't allow children like that to grow up thinking that the only way we can survive and live is by fighting with each other like animals. I particularly hope that the people in this area can see their way clear to resist political manipulation and we've learnt now about third forces, how to identify them and how to avoid them and restore our community. It is no excuse to tell ourselves that we did it for money. You can't buy that of the community. I can only wish you luck on behalf of the Committee, that you don't have to go through that madness again and if there is an attempt to put you through that again, to resist it. I hope my words are heeded. Finally, I wish to thank the representatives for appearing and being of assistance, thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS