amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-07-31 PRETORIA 10 MR ANDRIES JOHANNES VAN HEERDEN AM 3763/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52746&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98072031_pre_cosatu10.htm MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman, I will then call Mr Dries also known as Brood van Heerden. You will also find his application at Volume 1, page 159 to 179. ANDRIES JOHANNES VAN HEERDEN (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR ROSSOUW Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr van Heerden, I refer you to page 159 of your Amnesty Application in Volume 1. Do you confirm the contents of the paragraphs on that first page up to 7(b)? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW Do you confirm that you were a member of the IFP? MR VAN HEERDEN That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And during 1987 and 1988? MR VAN HEERDEN At that stage I was still a supporter of the National Party. MR ROSSOUW On the following page 160, do you confirm the contents of that page as far as your role as a Police Officer is concerned and also for the periods which you were in the Police 1972 to 1987 and then from 1988 onwards? MR VAN HEERDEN That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Is it correct that during 1987 you were a member or an employee of a bank group in South Africa, not a member of the Police and that any reference to your involvement in the Cosatu House is entirely incorrect? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes that's true. MR ROSSOUW Then on the next page up to page 163, end of that page is that your signature which appears on the application, do you confirm it? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW Then on page 164, annexure to your Amnesty Application, do you confirm the contents of paragraphs 1, 2 thereof? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW And specifically on page 165 in the second paragraph you there state that during your period of service in the Police you were indoctrinated specifically to the extent that you had to struggle against this communism, the onslaught of communism and that was also strengthened by the statements made by senior members of the Police and politicians, pointed out the ANC as enemies of the Republic? MR VAN HEERDEN Correct. MR ROSSOUW And it's in this background that you served in the South African Police? MR VAN HEERDEN Correct. MR ROSSOUW Mr van Heerden, on page 167 you apply for amnesty for the Cry Freedom incident and the explosion at the Alexandra Theatre. You've heard that it was also called the King's Theatre? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes that is correct. MR ROSSOUW And you ask for amnesty for any offence, omission or delict which may have arisen from that action, is that correct? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW You mention that you were only aware of the explosion, you weren't involved in the planning or execution thereof, is that correct? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW You say that you knew that Colonel Niels van Wyk instructed Mr Zeelie to prepare a limpet mine which was given to Joe Matsemela? MR VAN HEERDEN That is what Mr Zeelie told me. MR ROSSOUW So that was what was told to you? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes, indeed. MR ROSSOUW You were in Mr Zeelie's office when the limpet mine was prepared by him? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW And thereafter you went with him, where? MR VAN HEERDEN I went with him to Colonel van Wyk's office. He went into Van Wyk's office, I went past to the filing office. MR ROSSOUW You say the limpet mine was to be placed in the theatre to prevent the screening of the Cry Freedom film which related to the life of Steve Biko? MR VAN HEERDEN What I mentioned there is what I was told after the explosion had taken place that the thing had been placed at a theatre and the reasons therefore. MR ROSSOUW You say that after the explosion you went to the scene? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes that's correct. MR ROSSOUW Mr van Heerden, you also made a statement to the Attorney General regarding this incident and this appears on page 173 to 175 of Volume A? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes, that's correct. MR ROSSOUW There you mention all the things that you now confirmed. I'd like to just refer you to paragraph 12.1.2. There you state in the fourth line from the bottom that Boet Engelbrecht, the investigating officer, was told or he was told that he would be the investigating officer and he was told this after the incident? MR VAN HEERDEN Correct. MR ROSSOUW You then mention a number of people, Colonel Victor, Nic Deetlefs, Fleischman, Brits and At van Niekerk. Is it correct that they were members of the investigation team and you don't mean that they actually knew of the operation beforehand? MR VAN HEERDEN That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Mr van Heerden, then you say that no one was injured or killed during the explosion or no one was killed. Do you know whether anybody was injured? MR VAN HEERDEN No one was injured. MR ROSSOUW But the theatre was damaged? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes that is correct. MR ROSSOUW As far as the political objective was concerned you listened to the evidence of General van der Merwe and Minister Vlok and also General du Toit, do you associate yourself with that, do you agree that that was the political objective with this action? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW And you request that it be seen as part of your application? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW 169, you say there you saw the planting of a limpet mine as an action associated with a political objective, seeing as it was a politically inspired film dealing with the life of a political activist and your action would prevent the screening of it? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW You also say that according to your opinion, the preventing of the screening of the film would prevent any further emphasis which was placed by the liberation movements on the struggle against the government and that the screening could actually place a lot of emphasis on the liberation movement's struggle amongst the members of the broader public and help them? MR VAN HEERDEN That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Did you derive any benefit financial or otherwise from your actions? MR VAN HEERDEN No. MR ROSSOUW You also say that you were not involved but as far as you are aware you're asking for amnesty for any involvement and this was also told to you by Mr Zeelie? MR VAN HEERDEN That is correct. MR ROSSOUW Mr van Heerden, on page 169 you also ask for amnesty for your involvement in the bomb explosion, arson or damage to property or any other unlawful act which may appear or arise from the bomb explosion at Khotso House and your involvement in that? MR VAN HEERDEN Correct. MR ROSSOUW As far as that's concerned you also made a statement to the Attorney General and was attached to your application and it's contained in the bundle page 176 to 179 in Volume 2, is that correct? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW On page 170 you state that there was information at the disposal of the Security Police which proved that or said that the ANC received financial support from the SACC, do you have personal knowledge of that? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW How is that so? MR VAN HEERDEN I was the handler of a person who on two occasions pretended to be a member of the ANC MK and he received financial support from Khotso House. MR ROSSOUW Page 170, as far as the first incident is concerned, the first unsuccessful attempt, you say that you were at home and that Mr Zeelie who was the explosives expert at John Vorster came to pick you up? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW You then went to a house in Honeydew and Generals Erasmus and Du Toit were there, is that correct? MR VAN HEERDEN As I have already said, General Erasmus and General Du Toit were there but I've already said that General Du Toit on the second occasion, after the successful completion was at the house in Honeydew. MR ROSSOUW Okay so this previous incident, before the unsuccessful attempt, that is not correct? MR VAN HEERDEN That is not correct, yes. MR ROSSOUW You then say that the members of the explosives unit, Kotze and Hammond were also present? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW You heard the evidence that there was a first attempt and that it was abandoned because there were too many people in the street outside the building, is that correct? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW As far as the second attempt is concerned you say it took place about a week later and once again you were picked up by Mr Zeelie at your home? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW Page 177, ... [intervention] ADV GCABASHE Could I just very quickly, if you finish off 171 because that's where you are. I see mention is made of, it must be Warrant Officer Mostert and then there's General Bassie Smit and Krappies Engelbrecht. They were involved in the cover up, is that correct to your knowledge? MR ROSSOUW According to the evidence, yes. Mr Chairman, why I'm skipping to 177 is because it follows chronologically at this point in the evidence but ...[intervention] ADV GCABASHE Are you coming back to this? MR ROSSOUW Yes. ADV GCABASHE My apologies. MR ROSSOUW Mr van Heerden, on page 177 - sorry Mr Chairman, if you could just give us a minute, it seems that the pages were not bound into the bundle of the applicant? At the end of that page, paragraph 12.2.5 you refer the second attempt which took place a couple of days later. You say that Mr Zeelie picked you up at your home and you once again went to Honeydew and that is where Colonel de Kock was involved. You also said that that was the first time that you met him? MR VAN HEERDEN Correct. MR ROSSOUW You say that there were certain people involved and present there. You once again mention Du Toit, is that General du Toit? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW Is that correct? MR VAN HEERDEN No that's not correct, I saw him later that evening. MR ROSSOUW Then on page 178, just the following page, you say that there was a briefing session which Kotze and De Kock led and afterwards you went to the building. What was your role to be? MR VAN HEERDEN I was standing in front of the building in De Villiers Street. I had to notify the members entering the building of any movements in the street. MR ROSSOUW So you acted as a stop group? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes, it simply means that I was standing outside of the building, I wasn't really part of a stop group in any true sense of the word. MR ROSSOUW 12.2.8, there you refer to the penetration group in a kombi. De Kock, Kotze, Hammond, Zeelie, Beyers and Douw Willemse. MR VAN HEERDEN Yes, that's what I remember. MR ROSSOUW Can you elaborate on the role of Mr Willemse in this group? MR VAN HEERDEN I can't say for sure, no I can't remember exactly what his role was after they entered the building. MR ROSSOUW And then in paragraph 12.2.9 you say that afterwards or a couple of minutes later the penetration could have come out of the building and you then left, you drove to a parking area behind a Braamfontein Hotel, that's where you heard the explosion? MR VAN HEERDEN Correct. MR ROSSOUW And 12.2.11 on page 179 you say that you once again drove to Honeydew? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW You say that your recollection is that General du Toit was present at Honeydew at that stage? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW Do you confirm the rest of the contents in that statement on 179 and more specifically the function at Vlakplaas where Mr Vlok attended and which you also attended? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW And then Mr van Heerden if I can take you back to page 171 in the second paragraph, there you say that an investigation was done after the explosion and as far as you are aware it was under the leadership of Lieutenant Mostert? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes but Mostert never heard the true facts from me. MR ROSSOUW So you didn't make any false statement to anybody in this connection about the operation? MR VAN HEERDEN No, I never made a statement about the operation. MR ROSSOUW You say that Warrant Officer Mostert reported to General Bassie Smit and Krappies Engelbrecht? MR VAN HEERDEN That's what he told me. MR ROSSOUW You also say that nobody was injured or killed during the explosion? MR VAN HEERDEN That is correct. MR ROSSOUW And also that Khotso House was however damaged? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW Mr van Heerden you also listened to the evidence given here by General van der Merwe and Mr Vlok relating to the political objectives concerned. Do you agree with those objectives, do you associate yourself with that and do you also ask that it be incorporated in your application for amnesty? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes, indeed. MR ROSSOUW And then as already mentioned on page 172, you were personally aware of the fact that Khotso House gave financial assistance to liberation fighters? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW And this financial assistance would support the freedom fighters and enable them to continue their armed struggle against the Government of the day? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW You did not derive any benefit from your involvement in this operation, financial or otherwise? MR VAN HEERDEN No. MR ROSSOUW And you also acted on orders which you received and you say that your involvement arose out of the orders which you received from your superiors from John Vorster Square, General Erasmus? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW And that Eugene de Kock was personally responsible for the successful operation? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. MR ROSSOUW And you say that Generals Erasmus and Du Toit were present at both operations, you have now corrected that? MR VAN HEERDEN Yes. Chairperson, if I may just add in respect of Khotso House, Mr Frank Chikane, the Reverend Frank Chikane's son was involved in an explosion at Northcliff shopping centre. A colleague of his had blown himself up and according to identikits and statements obtained he was with this person at the time of the explosion. There was information that he was actually hiding in Khotso House and after the explosion possessions belonging to Mr Chikane's son were found in one of the vehicles. MR ROSSOUW Thank you Mr Chairman, that's the evidence for the applicant. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER But a few brief questions. Visser on record with your leave Mr Chairman. Mr van Heerden page 171 where you make reference to Warrant Officer Mostert and reference to General Bassie Smit and Krappies Engelbrecht, it was put to you by Commissioner Gcabashe that they were part of the cover up, but am I correct in saying that this is not what you say here? MR VAN HEERDEN No, I have never said to any one that I was involved and neither did Warrant Officer Mostert know, I just know that he reported to him about the matter. MR VISSER And that's all you are trying to say? MR VAN HEERDEN That's all I am trying to say there. MR VISSER With regard to Colonel du Toit, he tells me that he had nothing on earth to do with Khotso House. Now you say that you made an error and you admit that you make an error that he was previously at a planning meeting but you keep on saying that you saw him later. Now he says that he was never at any meeting which had any connection with Khotso House. Can he be correct regarding your recollection or are you so dead certain that you can say Piet du Toit is not telling the truth? MR VAN HEERDEN My recollection is that he was there, Mr Chairperson, but if General du Toit says he was not there, I know of many people who took part in the operation who I have not mentioned. I'll concede that General du Toit can be correct in saying he was not there. MR VISSER And it was a long time ago? MR VAN HEERDEN It was a long time back. MR VISSER If I can refer you to page 186 to be read together with page 174, if you can just keep your fingers on both pages, the impression is already made on page 186 that what you know about the orders that were given with regard to the theatre in Alexandra is something which was told to you. MR VAN HEERDEN The order was conveyed to me, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW And you specifically state that on page 174 in paragraph 12.1.2, Lieutenant Zeelie told you? MR VAN HEERDEN I have just testified to that Chairperson. MR VISSER Okay, then we don't have an argument about that because you see General du Toit testified that he was the acting commander at that time and that Niels van Wyk was on leave at the time of this incident so that is your recollection? MR VAN HEERDEN Chairperson, Mr van Wyk was in his office when Mr Zeelie went to see him. MR VISSER So you say Mr van Wyk was there. MR VAN HEERDEN That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER No further questions, thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR SIBANYONI Mr van Heerden on page 168 you refer to Joe Mamasela but Mr Zeelie said that is should be Joe Matsemela, is that also your recollection? MR VAN HEERDEN Chairperson, the name Joe Mamasela, Mr Zeelie told me that Joe Mamasela was going to do it and that is why I mentioned the name Joe Mamasela there. CHAIRPERSON He corrects it now, Zeelie originally says he used Mamasela? MR SIBANYONI He didn't correct it. CHAIRPERSON He was told by Zeelie. MR SIBANYONI And on page 177 you refer to Khotso House as the head office of the World Council of Churches. I take it that you want to say ...[intervention] MR VAN HEERDEN It's the Council of Churches, correct. MR SIBANYONI You say there were many names that you did not mention of people who were involved in the operation at the time. Why did you not mention these names? MR VAN HEERDEN It's people that I cannot remember who took part in the operation because I did not know many of the people at that stage. MR SIBANYONI No further questions Mr Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER And you also mentioned peoples names that had nothing to do with the incident such as Joe Mamasela and Smit and those people? MR VAN HEERDEN That's correct, Chairperson. MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman, I've been requested by the applicant that he just wants to use a minute to say something. ADV GCABASHE Can I just ask a very short question before he does that? Page 179, that last paragraph, 12.2.13. You comment about Minister Vlok, the last seven or so lines, that you talked about a "hoop robbel bakstene". This is your affidavit here? MR VAN HEERDEN That is correct. ADV GCABASHE Tell us a little bit about that? MR VAN HEERDEN It was on the occasion at Vlakplaas where Minister Vlok congratulated us where he just said "it was a house and then just a pile a bricks" and then Mr Vlok was silenced. ADV GCABASHE So he made some - he tried to make reference to the bombing and he was ...[intervention] MR VAN HEERDEN That is correct. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. CHAIRPERSON And was it on this occasion that somebody said, one of the officers said: "shhh" when the Minister said that in an attempt to prevent him from saying too much in front of other people who were unaware of the true situation? MR VAN HEERDEN That is correct, Mr Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON Please proceed. MR VAN HEERDEN Mr Chairman, I just want to make a statement in Zulu and I would like you have it interpreted so that the other members can understand it "Mr de Kock is the King of Kings. Go well." MR ROSSOUW Thank you Mr Chairman, may the applicant be excused? ADV GCABASHE A quick question, you're not saying that in respect of any of the other people who are your seniors? MR VAN HEERDEN I'm saying this to Colonel de Kock in person due to the testimony that he has given about his men. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED