amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-07-31 PRETORIA 10 JAKOB FRANCOIS KOK AM 3812/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52747&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98072031_pre_cosatu10.htm MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, I am due to start with the next three applicants, that will be applicant number 21 that I intend calling first. Mr Kok, then Mr Du Toit, number 13 and in the last place Mr Hattingh who is applicant number 11 in Volume 1 but it is inconvenient to use one of these conventional microphones, may I perhaps just ask that the applicant microphone that stays on just be moved here? You would find Mr Kok at page 89 of Volume 2. JAKOB FRANCOIS KOK (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR BOOYENS Mr Chairman, there would have been handed to the Committee four pages, five pages which are marked 95(a) to (e) which I just asked to be included in Mr Kok's application but I should perhaps mention at the outset that for purposes here, the Committee can ignore page 95(a) and it only becomes relevant at the very last paragraph on 95(b) that small (b). 95(a) actually deals with another operation. Mr Kok you have your application before you? MR KOK Yes I do, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS And you are applying for amnesty for the Khotso House incident, is that correct? MR KOK That is correct. MR BOOYENS Do you confirm on page 92 of your application that you ask for amnesty for any offence, omission or delict which relates directly to the incident? MR KOK Yes Chairperson. MR BOOYENS Please return to page 89, paragraphs 7(a) and (b) it must read National Party and supporter and not applicable, is that correct? MR KOK That is correct. MR BOOYENS Do you confirm page 90 as correct? MR KOK I confirm it as correct. MR BOOYENS And page 91? MR KOK Yes. MR BOOYENS We are now on page 92, you earlier stated ...[intervention] ADV GCABASHE I'm sorry, Mr Booyens, just one minute. The translation is not coming through, it's just not coming through at all unless there's something wrong with what I have here? Thank you. MR BOOYENS Maybe it's not coming through because I'm speaking too quickly Commissioner? ADV DE JAGER Mr Booyens couldn't you perhaps - would you have objection if you asked the questions in English? MR KOK No, I won't have any objection. MR BOOYENS Very well. Perhaps we should just enquire, Mr Chairman, is it a just a problem with the translation or is it with the transcription as well? CHAIRPERSON Transmission. MR BOOYENS Just the transmission. Very well. Mr Kok, just one further aspect, at page 92, paragraph ...[inaudible]. Very briefly, you have heard the evidence of the erstwhile Minister of Law and Order, you have heard the evidence of the erstwhile Commission of Police and the senior officers in charge of this operation. Do you confirm the correctness thereof? MR KOK Yes. MR BOOYENS In so far as you personal knowledge thereof. MR KOK Yes Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS And do you also confirm the political motivation as set out by those senior officials as to the reason that it was decided that Khotso House should be sabotaged? MR KOK I agree with that Mr Chairman. MR BOOYENS Is it further correct that - did you yourself in your capacity as a security policeman, although you were attached to a technical section, have some knowledge of the activities of the South African Council of Churches and the allegations that were being made about their activities? MR KOK Yes we would get some information on a regular basis through minutes that came to the office. MR BOOYENS I think you're referring to security reports? MR KOK Security reports. MR BOOYENS Right. You although you were not in a field section and you had no way of verifying or checking the veracity of these statements, is that correct? MR KOK That is correct. MR BOOYENS Would it further be correct to say that you ...[intervention] ADV DE JAGER Apparently the fault with the translation has been fixed now and you can go ahead. MR BOOYENS Is it further correct that you were on occasion given instruction by your commanding officer Mr Waal du Toit to take your lock picking equipment, specifically those dealing with those dealing with the opening of motor cars and to accompany Colonel de Kock on an operation? MR KOK That's correct, Chairperson. MR BOOYENS To your recollection at that stage were you told by Mr du Toit what the nature of the operation would be or the purpose or not? MR KOK No Chairperson. MR BOOYENS On a subsequently later, or after you had reported to Colonel de Kock and accompanied him you learnt that the purpose was that Khotso House should be sabotaged and you would open motor cars to enable explosives to be placed in them to create certain impressions? MR KOK That's correct. MR BOOYENS Is it furthermore correct that you did accompany the members there, it was decided to abandon the idea of placing the explosives inside the motor cars and you then did nothing but you did accompany them, is that correct? MR KOK Yes that's correct. MR BOOYENS Subsequent to that, after the operation did you report back to your commanding officer, Mr du Toit, and informed him in fact that the destination was Khotso House and that's how you were involved? MR KOK Yes I gave him a full report. MR BOOYENS So far as - do you confirm the balance of your application as set out in the papers before the Committee? MR KOK Yes I confirm it. MR BOOYENS In so far as your personal political convictions were concerned were you prepared once you knew that the destination was Khotso House and once you were given a background as to the reason for the operation to associate yourself with this operation? MR KOK Yes I was prepared. MR BOOYENS You were prepared. MR KOK I was prepared. MR BOOYENS And as far as you were concerned against your own political belief apart from such reasons as were given against the background of your own political beliefs and on the information you had available which you already stated you were unable to check, were you satisfied that you could take part in this operation, it was part of the struggle against the liberation movements? MR KOK Yes. MR BOOYENS Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS WITNESS EXCUSED