amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-07-31 PRETORIA 10 GEORGE FRANCOIS HAMMOND AM 5452/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52751&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98072031_pre_cosatu10.htm MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman. May I call Mr George Hammond. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR DU PLESSIS Two, Mr Chairman, I'm nearly finished. CHAIRPERSON We normally adjourn at 1 o'clock and I don't know if anybody feels they must take an adjournment now or we continue? MR DU PLESSIS As it pleases you. CHAIRPERSON Very well, let us continue and conclude the evidence. MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, I'm not sure whether this person is here in Volume 2 page 15 you have another applicant, Mr Paul Francis Erasmus. He's apparently not represented by anybody . At this stage I'm not sure whether he's here or not. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, is he a participant? ADV MPSHE He has applied Mr Chairman. I'm informed that he is not here as well. CHAIRPERSON But has he been given notice? ADV MPSHE Yes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON And has he given any indication of attending the hearing? ADV MPSHE No, Mr Chairman, not to my knowledge. GEORGE FRANCOIS HAMMOND (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR DU PLESSIS His application on page 28 of Volume 2. Mr Hammond do you confirm the general background which appears from page 28 until page 42? MR HAMMOND That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And during that period of time is it correct to say that you supported the ideology of the National Party? MR HAMMOND That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And you were a supporter of apartheid? MR HAMMOND That is correct, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Furthermore you believed that you should fight for the maintenance of the existing ideology and for apartheid. MR HAMMOND Yes that is correct. MR DU PLESSIS You also believed that you were fighting against liberation movements and the dangers of communism? MR HAMMOND That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And was it also your belief when you participated in this specific operation? MR HAMMOND That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Who was your commander with regard to the Cosatu House and Khotso House incidents? MR HAMMOND Mr Paul Hattingh. MR DU PLESSIS And did you believe that the orders which you received from him came from a higher level? MR HAMMOND Yes I believed that. MR DU PLESSIS Would he have given you an order if he had not received further orders from above? MR HAMMOND No. MR DU PLESSIS Would you please look at page 47 and page 59. In paragraph 10 (a) you say with regard to Khotso and Cosatu House you say in this sentence "The political motivation and reason for the damaging of this building is unknown to me." Is this the case during the operation itself? MR HAMMOND Chairperson, I understand that the political motivation of this operation much better after having heard the evidence of ex-Minister Vlok as well as General van der Merwe. MR DU PLESSIS Yes, but when you participated in the operation did you know that this was aimed at the liberation movements and the ANC specifically? MR HAMMOND That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And you were aware that you were acting as part of the counter-revolutionary struggle against the liberation movements and communism? MR HAMMOND Yes that is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Did you receive any kind of financial gain? MR HAMMOND No. MR DU PLESSIS Not from either of the operations? MR HAMMOND No. MR DU PLESSIS You've heard the evidence regarding the political objective and motivation given by ex-Minister Vlok and General van der Merwe and other applicants? MR HAMMOND That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And do you confirm this? MR HAMMOND Yes, I do confirm this. MR DU PLESSIS And do you agree with it? MR HAMMOND Yes, I do. MR DU PLESSIS You've heard the evidence of Mr Kotze with regard to the Khotso House incident. Do you confirm his evidence as correct? MR HAMMOND I confirm this as correct. MR DU PLESSIS Is there anything you wish to add? MR HAMMOND No. MR DU PLESSIS Would you then please turn to page 43, that is where you give the particulars regarding the Cosatu House incident. Do you confirm the correctness thereof? MR HAMMOND Yes it is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Might I put it to you in the following way: could you give the Committee a slight indication of the type of charges which were used regarding the explosive devices which were used during this operation? MR HAMMOND We were told that there was a printing press in the building which was to be destroyed in the process of damaging the building. Pierre le Roux and I prepared two charges. The one consisted of a SZ6 demolition charge as well as some blocks of TNT. This SZ6 charge was in a metal container in which there were six kilograms of explosives. The second consisted of two SZ6 demolition charges as well as a number of blocks of TNT. The first charge was approximately ten kilograms and the next was 15 kilograms. When we penetrated the building, Mr Le Roux placed the first charge next to the printing press. When we entered the building, the printing press was immediately to our right. We passed the printing press and placed the larger charge near the lift shaft. When we prepared the charges at the office we had automatic time switches which we would use in the explosion. We tested them repeatedly for approximately a week in order to ensure that they would work and so that we could synchronise the explosions. When we placed the charges I counted from five to zero upon which we connected the batteries to the switches and then placed the cartridges. We then withdrew. MR DU PLESSIS The ladder which was used, whose ladder was it? MR HAMMOND Chairperson, while we were busy with discussions regarding how we would penetrate the building mention was made of a rope which we were to use. I climbed many ropes in my life but there are a number of people who don't know how to do that and it was quite high to the basement going down the wall. I suggested that we use a ladder and an ex-member of the Police brought the ladder there, I don't remember his name. MR DU PLESSIS MR HAMMOND That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS The charge which you placed was not aimed at making the building collapse completely? MR HAMMOND No. MR DU PLESSIS And that was the same with Khotso House? MR HAMMOND Yes that is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And for the purposes of the record the damage which was done at Cosatu House has been explained by you from page 45 until 46? MR HAMMOND That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS And then regarding Khotso House just for the purposes of the record do you confirm the correctness of page 53 to 54 which pertains to the content of the building? MR HAMMOND Just in the first paragraph I refer to a farm somewhere in the region of Muldersdrift. It was Honeydew not Muldersdrift. MR DU PLESSIS That is on page 53, just below the middle of the page? MR HAMMOND That is correct, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS And then on page 54 up to and including page 58 you give an explanation of the damage done to the buildings and those persons who were injured? MR HAMMOND That's correct, that was with Khotso House. MR DU PLESSIS With Khotso house and you received that information from official documentation? MR HAMMOND That is correct. MR DU PLESSIS Is there anything which you would like to add? MR HAMMOND No, Chairperson. MR DU PLESSIS Thank you Mr Chairman I have no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS ADV GCABASHE ...[inaudible] I have a very good idea it's quite far out. Where is that? MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairman, perhaps I can enlighten you, if you drive on the road to Krugersdorp, it is closer to Krugersdorp on that road in the vicinity of Honeydew. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED