amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-07-24 PRETORIA 5 JOHANNES CHRISTOFFEL MEYER AM 4152/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52759&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98072031_pre_cosatu5.htm MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, next order of business that I wish to call Mr Johannes Christoffel Meyer who has made application, Mr Chairman, before you and whose written application is in Volume 2 at page 210. We have also prepared a short affidavit for Mr Meyer, Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER But before we proceed with that, in dealing with the applications, Mr Mpshe, you should pay attention to Section - what is it - 19.8 in making available information. 19 sub 8 because it may have a bearing on whether you could make applications available at this stage or not or parts of applications. JOHANNES CHRISTOFFEL MEYER (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Meyer, you have handed in an application to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission and that application appears in Volume 2 in the documents before this Committee on page 210 and in that written application on the prescribed form on page 216 you refer to an incident whereby you apply and you describe it as follows as in answer to question 9 (a) of the prescribed form that requests you to supply the details or particulars of the offence which had a political motivation in terms of your application. You then in II gave the date as July 1988 and you indicated the places or place as Khotso House, Johannesburg, is what I've said now correct? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER You approached me yesterday and informed me that you had made a mistake, is that correct? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And last night a short affidavit was drawn up and that would be Exhibit K. Mr Chairman, if you need information, we try to keep a bundle of exhibits going, J was Petrus Lodewickus du Toit, that was J. We skipped I. CHAIRPERSON What was Erasmus then? MR VISSER Erasmus was H Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON It's K now? MR VISSER Now it's K. Mr Chairman, this is an affidavit, the original signed on is before you, Mr Chairman. ADV DE JAGER Sorry, this is not the document you are referring to because this is not an affidavit. Johannes Christoffel Meyer "Aansoek om wysiging". MR VISSER Yes, that is the affidavit Mr Chairman, we've only had opportunity this morning to sign one copy and to attest to one copy. That one is before the Chairman, Commissioner de Jager. ADV DE JAGER Well on mine there's not even a provision for a ...[intervention] MR VISSER Yes, it's been written in, Mr Chairman, perhaps Mr Chairman you could show Mr de Jager the - I'm sorry about that it's not how we normally like to do it Mr Chairman but ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON Well can't you achieve exactly the same effect and remove the difficulty by now attesting this? MR VISSER He's going to do that Mr Chairman. Mr Meyer, last night in association with your legal representative you drew up a document which was Exhibit K, you have a copy of that - do you confirm the truth and the correctness of what is set out in there in your testimony here under oath today? MR MEYER I confirm it. MR VISSER Can you just submit to the Committee from page 2 paragraph 8? MR MEYER Very well, Chairperson. "Reasons for amendment of application. As it would seem later in my testimony I was involved in the periphery that I am applying for amnesty here. I was present because I had to take Brigadier Schoon to the safety house in Honeydew because the Brigadier did not know where it was and later when I handed in my application for amnesty I had to think long and hard as to which incident I was involved with and I wrongly came to the decision that it was Khotso House and while I was at this hearing and listening and listening to this testimony and then I came to the realisation that Cosatu was the first house to be blown up and I realised this was the incident where I was involved with because Brigadier Schoon at the time of Khotso House or when Khotso House was blown up would have already known where the safety house was in Honeydew and I request you, I request the Committee to amend my application. MR VISSER So you then request then Mr Meyer that the Committee on page 216 at 9 (a) iii the date thereof July 1988 has to be amended by changing it to 6 - 7th May 1987. Mr Chairman, that appears at page 1, all the relevant information appears on the first page and I'm now referring to paragraph 2. And what is mentioned in paragraph 9 (a) iii the words Khotso House, Johannesburg has to be replaced with the words Cosatu House, Johannesburg, is that your request? MR MEYER That is correct. The date is 9 (a) ii and the place is 9 (a) iii. MR VISSER And you wish to request an amendment to paragraph 7 (a) and (b) and the words "not applicable" has to be scrapped and be replaced with National Party and 7 (b), the words "not applicable" has to be replaced with "supporter"? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, if I may briefly make a submission or two in this regard. We know that the time has come and gone for applications for amnesty. We would urge upon you to regard this not as a new or a fresh application. It certainly does not involve any extension of the application by Mr Marais - Mr Meyer - when you hear his evidence which will be attended to you immediately and very briefly, the evidence is not amended at all. His role remains exactly the same, it is a question of mistaken identity and Mr Chairman we would submit that in the light of the confusion which already reigns with regard to these two incidents because of the similarity of what occurred as far as Khotso House as well as Cosatu House are concerned that we would ask you to consider this to be not a fresh application but simply an amendment of an existing application and if you do so, Mr Chairman, we would move for the amendments to be granted in terms of paragraphs 2,3 and 4 at page 1 of Exhibit A and also, Mr Chairman, for you to grant the technical amendments set out in paragraph 5 and 6. I may mention Mr Chairman I did discuss it with members of the Committee albeit not in the presence of any of my learned friends this morning to forewarn the Committee that I will move this application. Thank you Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Any of the other applicants have any representations to make in this regard, if they wish to ask any questions? MR BOOYENS No Mr Chairman, thank you. NO REPRESENTATIONS BY MR BOOYENS MR HUGO No Mr Chairman, thank you. MR PENZHORN Penzhorn. No Mr Chairman. NO REPRESENTATIONS BY MR PENZHORN MR NEL Nel, no, Mr Chairman, thank you. MR DU PLESSIS Du Plessis. No questions, Mr Chairman. NO REPRESENTATIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR DU PLESSIS ...[inaudible] staan in vir Advokaat Hannes Botha, geen vrae dankie Voorsitter. NO REPRESENTATIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR ROSSOUW Rossouw. Mr Chairman, I've got no questions. NO REPRESENTATIONS BY MR ROSSOUW MR LAMEY I've got no objection to the application for amendment. NO REPRESENTATIONS BY MR LAMEY MR JANSEN Jansen, Mr Chairman. No submissions. NO REPRESENTATIONS BY MR JANSEN NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN MR MAFOJANE Mafojane on behalf of Cosatu, Mr Chairman. No submissions. NO REPRESENTATIONS BY MR MAFOJANE MR THULARE Thulare on behalf of the SACC. I don't think my clients will object but I'll have to get confirmation from them. At this point I've got no submissions to make. NO REPRESENTATIONS BY MR THULARE ADV MPSHE No questions Mr Chairman. NO REPRESENTATIONS BY ADV MPSHE CHAIRPERSON You were in the vicinity of the explosion were you not? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. I was in the vicinity but I could not see the building in the night. CHAIRPERSON But you certainly read the second day or the following day that it was Cosatu House or Khotso House? MR MEYER That's what I cannot remember Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON You went along to participate in a bombing of a large building in Johannesburg and you say you cannot remember. MR MEYER It is a long time ago, Chairperson. CHAIRPERSON How many buildings did you blow up? MR MEYER I was involved with the one. CHAIRPERSON But you cannot remember if it was in 1986 or it was in 1988 or whether it was Cosatu House or Khotso House? MR MEYER At the time of my filling in of the application I could not remember. MR SIBANYONI Mr Meyer, I'm referring to paragraph 7 (a) when you filled the application you said "nie van toepassing nie". At that stage were you not sure whether you were a member of any organisation and later on you said National Party. MR MEYER I was advised by my attorney. MR SIBANYONI Advised to do what? MR MEYER To fill in "nie van toepassing nie". MR SIBANYONI But you were at that stage a member of the National Party? MR MEYER Yes that's correct. When the incident occurred. MR SIBANYONI Was it not so in the past that police were not allowed to be members of political parties and civil servants? MR MEYER I was not a member I was a supporter. MR SIBANYONI No further questions. ADV DE JAGER You do not apply for both instances? MR MEYER No, Chairperson, I was just involved with the one. ADV DE JAGER So you do not add an additional application with your existing application with this amendment? MR MEYER Not at all, Chairperson. ADV DE JAGER And if you were indeed involved with the Khotso House incident then your application expires because there is no application for Khotso House then. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser we are prepared to grant the application you have brought on behalf of your client, to amend the application to merely record different dates and address. It remains an application for one incident of association with the blowing up of a building in Johannesburg. MR VISSER As it pleases you Mr Chairman and the amendment may we take it will be granted in terms of what is stated in Exhibit K at page, first paragraph. Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, while Mr Meyer is here we thought that we'll just continue and finish his evidence. It's going to be very brief. Mr Meyer you were indeed a member of Section C2 under the command of Brigadier Willem Schoon. It starts off with a number of paragraph 1's, you'll have to forgive me for that Mr Chairman. "Under the command of Brigadier Schoon and this was a terrorist interrogation and research desk, my rank was Captain at the time." Is that correct? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And you refer to the fact that every morning you had a meeting with Brigadier Schoon and that in this manner you were told about the activities in terms of unrest incidents as well as the Cosatu House incident and Khotso House incident and so forth? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson, that and the security reports that we read. MR VISSER Mr Meyer, on a good day you received an instruction from, as you have said, from Brigadier Schoon to take him to a safety house in Honeydew because he did not know where it was? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Can you then continue on page 3 and tell us - Mr Chairperson you could just refer to page 217 of Volume 2 "I was with Brigadier Schoon and Colonel de Kock to the planning meeting at the house at Honeydew in Johannesburg. During the explosion itself I was in the street outside the building and it was my task to keep away members of the public to prevent injury or death. Although I was not personally responsible for the explosion I was part of the operation." Now there were two meetings if we can call it that - paragraph 8, Mr Chairman - and the second opportunity was when you left for Vlakplaas and where you and members of the Vlakplaas Unit left in separate vehicles to Johannesburg the evening of the explosion and you had said that Eugene de Kock took leadership there and gave instructions there and he instructed you to go with members of C1 Unit to make sure that people do not come too close - members of the public. MR MEYER That is correct, Mr Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Meyer, your background and your career in the Police Service as well as your political background and motivations, you sketched that in your application for amnesty on pages 210 to 211, is where your career in the police service appears and your political background and motivation is on page 212 to page 215? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER And that is all in Volume 2. Would I be correct to say that you confirm the testimony by former Minister Vlok and General van der Merwe in terms of the general political background and the circumstances prevalent in 1987 when you participated in this operation? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson? MR VISSER And your participation was because of a direct instruction that you received from Brigadier Schoon and later from the then Major de Kock? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER You then request this Committee to grant you amnesty for all illegal or irregular offences in connection with the blowing up of Cosatu House on the 6th and 7th May 1987? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, thank you for your indulgence, that is the evidence which we which to present. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER MR BOOYENS No questions thank you, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY MR BOOYENS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HUGO It's Hugo on behalf of De Kock. Mr Meyer, just one question. Your first meeting which occurred at Honeydew where Brigadier Schoon was involved, you say in paragraph 6 of your supplementary application that you were conversant with the political background surrounding Cosatu House. Did you give any input at the discussion of this operation? MR MEYER No, Chairperson, I did not give any input because the experts were there. MR HUGO No further questions, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR HUGO MR PENZHORN Penzhorn. No questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR PENZHORN MR CORNELIUS Mr Chairman, Cornelius on behalf of applicant N.J. Vermeulen, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR CORNELIUS MR NEL Mr Chairman, Nel on behalf of Lanton McArthur, I have no questions thank you. NO QUESTIONS BY MR NEL MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, Du Plessis, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR DU PLESSIS Mr Chairperson, Du Plessis, I have no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR DU PLESSIS MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairperson, Rossouw, I've got no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR ROSSOUW MR LAMEY NO QUESTIONS BY MR LAMEY MR JANSEN Mr Chairman, Jansen on behalf of Ras, no questions. NO QUESTIONS BY MR JANSEN CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR MAFOJANE Mr Chairman, Mafojane on behalf of Cosatu. Mr Meyers, you've alluded to the facts regarding Khotso House and Cosatu House - the activities there at and you basically confirm what was said by Mr Vlok and General van der Merwe. Now did you have personal knowledge of these issues? MR MEYER As I said, Chairperson, I did not know the details in depth and what I knew is what I read of in reports. MR MAFOJANE So all you knew about the activities or alleged activities that were happening at this place was through second hand information, reports and what you heard from your colleagues? MR MEYER Chairperson, I would not call it second hand information. MR MAFOJANE Now, on the night of the bombing at the Honeydew safe house you said that you were also part of that discussions, the planning and everything? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. MR MAFOJANE Now what was the order with regard to the civilians? MR MEYER To keep the public away from the building and to cordon off the area. MR MAFOJANE And that would have been after the explosion I presume? MR MEYER No, before the explosion. MR MAFOJANE How would you cordon off an area in that instance. Would you say to the public keep away, you know, cordon it off and then bomb the area. It doesn't make sense to me. How would that have happened? MR MEYER Well we did not cordon it off as such, we just made sure that the people did not come too close. MR MAFOJANE In which way would that have happened - would you have told people to keep away from the building - in which way? I do not understand. This was supposed to be a clandestine operation isn't it? MR MEYER We just told them to move away from the scene. MR MAFOJANE Now in your mind didn't you think that there would be suspicions? Would you have done - the cordoning off - would you have done it in your - would you have held yourselves out to the public as the police and saying to people they must get away from the scene, or what? MR MEYER We were in unmarked vehicles and they did not see us as member of the police and this is how we did it. MR MAFOJANE Now about your - about Brigadier Schoon's instruction to you to take him to Johannesburg because you knew the Honeydew safe house, had you in the past been privy to any operations in Johannesburg where the use of the safe house had to be made? MR MEYER Not operations but I did visit the house previously. If I can recall correctly, we went to the house that morning as well. MR MAFOJANE I have no further questions, Mr Chairman, thank you. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MAFOJANE CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR THULARE ...[inaudible] Thulare on behalf of the SACC. Mr Meyer, my colleague has asked you how you made sure that people didn't come close to the building. What were the instructions if somebody insisted on getting close to the building because you couldn't, I suppose, identify yourself as a policeman? MR MEYER There was no specific instruction to that effect Chairperson. I was just the driver of a vehicle so I could not comply with that instruction. MR THULARE But as part of the team that was supposed to keep the public away, wasn't it contemplated that you may have difficulty in keeping them away because you were involved in a clandestine operation which you couldn't publicly...[intervention] MR MEYER If I recall correctly, the instruction was to keep the people away and we did not foresee any problems. MR THULARE If any of the Cosatu leaders had chanced upon you there and insisted on going to their building, what would you have said to them? MR MEYER This we would have done while we were busy with the operation and it would have been handled. MR THULARE In which way would it have been handled? MR MEYER I cannot tell you now, Chairperson, because the situation ...[intervention] MR THULARE At - in your section at Vlakplaas, if I heard correctly, you were involved in the interrogation of so called terrorists am I right? MR MEYER I was not involved with a Vlakplaas Unit I was just involved in a unit under the command of Brigadier Schoon, I was involved with their questioning and research of terrorist activities. MR THULARE And during the course of your work, did you ever come across any instances of so called terrorists operating from Khotso House and Cosatu House? MR MEYER I cannot recall this point correctly but I can imagine that I can recall something like that that there was those activities in Khotso House. MR THULARE What can you recall about those activities at Khotso House? MR MEYER That trained terrorists visited the building for certain reasons that I can not remember now. MR THULARE That's all you can remember about the incident? What would say to the proposition which I'm going to put to you and which is my instruction from the SACC that that is denied, no such activities took place at Khotso House. Khotso House was a building of church organisation, religious organisation, charitable organisation and certain political -legal political organisation? MR MEYER That the visits happened, Chairperson, is true but what happened during those visits I cannot attest to that, I don't know what happened during those visits. MR THULARE But you do remember it vividly that you had encountered such an allegation? MR MEYER Yes I remember. MR THULARE Do you remember any follow up action that was taken by your unit or any of your colleagues? MR MEYER No we did not follow up operations from our unit and I cannot remember if any operations were launched. I was also in the Johannesburg area. MR THULARE Isn't it perhaps a bit strange that you can remember very clearly about allegations of terrorists visiting Khotso House and no other details but your memory get a little bit confused regarding bombings which I'm sure was not something that you were involved on a routine basis? MR MEYER I applied originally for Khotso House and I had to think about Khotso House and this is where I got this information which I have put to this Commission. MR THULARE I have got no further questions for this witness. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR THULARE ADV MPSHE I've no questions, Mr Chairman. NO QUESTIONS BY ADV MPSHE ADV GCABASHE I have one question and it relates to the morning meetings you would have with Brigadier Schoon. At these meetings was it expected of you to understand why you were going out on an operation? MR MEYER Chairperson, this specific operation, that morning meeting, that specific morning meeting - it was not mentioned then. I received instruction to take Brigadier Schoon to the safety house in Honeydew. ADV GCABASHE So the discussion on this particular operation, that's Cosatu House, took place at Honeydew only? MR MEYER That's correct, Chairperson, as far as my knowledge is concerned. ADV GCABASHE And at that point you were simply being giving instructions - you will do this, you will do that - you weren't dealing with the why at that point? MR MEYER Is this at the morning meeting or at the meeting at Honeydew? ADV GCABASHE No, you've said to me that in respect of this specific incident the only discussions that took place were the ones at Honeydew. I trying to distinguish now between understanding why you were going out and simply following an instruction you were given - you will sit in a car and you will keep watch? MR MEYER I was in the room where the planning was taking place. Reasons were given but I cannot remember them now. ADV GCABASHE I'll come back to the general proposition which was my first question. Generally, were you as an operative expected to understand why you were going out on a particular mission? Just your experience? MR MEYER The facts were known to me, Chairperson and as we've heard in the previous evidence, everything was already done at that stage and I accepted that that which we would have done then would have been the final way out. ADV GCABASHE Again as a general proposition, as an operative you were not expected to question any orders you were given? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Again, just at a general level, you said that you were involved with research and something else I wrote down, oh, with questioning and research is what I wrote down. MR MEYER That is correct. ADV GCABASHE So in respect of those competencies that you had, you were good at research and questioning. Again you were not expected to understand why you were doing certain things, you were just told you must get this information either out of a book or after a person and you were expected to do just that - nothing more? MR MEYER Chairperson, my work at C2 was to do research and also to lead questioning with regards to and arrested terrorist and we concentrated more on operations abroad rather than those internally at that stage but during the questioning which we led, certain internal things came to light which we heard from these people and we took notes regarding this. ADV GCABASHE Thank you. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR RADITAPOLE Mr Meyer, as you were keeping watch for the people not to come closer to the area, were there in fact people you sent away? MR MEYER The people who were with me in the vehicle - we did not chase them away or send them away but if you put it this way, they did foot patrols. MR RADITAPOLE Yes, I mean when you were keeping watch for people not to come to the area, not to come to Cosatu House, were there in fact people which you diverted, sent away from the area? MR MEYER Sorry, Chairperson, I misunderstood the question. I do not remember how many people there were but we did send people away. MR RADITAPOLE Did you introduce yourself or what did you say who you are to send them away? MR MEYER Like I've said before I was only the driver of the vehicle and the ...[inaudible] CHAIRPERSON ....[inaudible] I was there, is that not a fact? MR RADITAPOLE Well I might not have got his evidence properly, I thought that he heard from other members, from other of his colleagues that there had been a terrorist there. Now what I wanted to establish is whether during the questioning of the terrorist that he questioned and his research, has he ever established it as a matter of fact that a terrorist had visited Khotso House. That is what I wanted to establish or whether it remains just an untested allegation that he had from his colleagues. MR MEYER If I remember correctly, it was told to me by an arrested terrorist that that was indeed the case. MR RADITAPOLE Are you able to mention the name of that arrested terrorist? MR MEYER I cannot remember that, Chairperson. MR RADITAPOLE So that will remain one of the allegations that will never be tested although it implicates my client. MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. ADV GCABASHE Can I just clear something up. I know that this application relates to Cosatu House but you are saying that you had information on Khotso House though you were not present when the building was bombed, this is essentially what you are saying? MR MEYER That is correct, Chairperson. MR VISSER May I be allowed one question, one or two questions in re-examination? RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER It was put to you that the people placed a cordon around the area, was that the case? MR MEYER Like I've said it was not the case Chairperson. MR VISSER It was in the middle of the night? MR MEYER That is correct, chairperson. MR VISSER Early morning hours? MR MEYER Yes, late in the evening. MR VISSER Were there a lot of people in the street and that time of night? MR MEYER No, not at all Chairperson. MR VISSER And your recollection of that incident was - was it that there were a lot of people in the vicinity? MR MEYER If I can put it this way, it was quite quiet. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON I don't know if there is going to be any evidence. I'm afraid my knowledge of the geography of Johannesburg is not that great as to what type of area this building was situated in. Were there night-clubs and things around it or was it in a business area? MR VISSER Yes, Mr Chairman, we didn't think when we started with the hearing that that would be really relevant but it may become relevant. It might even have become relevant already to the advice of certain of the members and we would appreciate it if you did give that indication if it becomes a matter. CHAIRPERSON Well you've just raised it now as to whether there were people in the vicinity. Is it the sort of area that you would expect people to be in at two o'clock as there are some sections for example Hillbrow I think that certainly used to be in that category? MR VISSER Yes this witness would be the incorrect witness as would I for that matter because I also don't know the area. CHAIRPERSON I presume one of the applicants will be somebody with local knowledge? MR VISSER Mr Chairman, my attorney informs me that Mr Mpshe has copies or has the police dockets which has photographs in and so on. I don't know how that helps answering your question but he asked me to tell you that but maybe some of the information could be derived from that, Mr Chairman, but certainly we will bear in mind that perhaps some evidence should be presented in that regard, yes Mr Chairman. MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman, perhaps just to be of assistance in respect of this matter as well I didn't put that to General Meyer but perhaps arising from this it may be relevant. My clients, who were the people who went into the building with the Cosatu House incident who activated the bomb and went out will testify that that took really a minute or two. It wasn't a long period, half an hour or twenty minutes or fifteen minutes, it really took a minute or two so the time period within which people could have stumbled upon this operation was really very limited and that will be the evidence. CHAIRPERSON Would they be able to say anything about the sort of district it was? MR ROSSOUW No they won't be, sorry Mr Chairman. MR HUGO It's Hugo on behalf of De Kock. Mr de Kock will certainly testify what the area was all about and he will also testify that there was a disco in the vicinity of this particular building. CHAIRPERSON Mr Visser? MR VISSER None thank you Mr Chairman. At this stage of the proceedings I'm grateful to announce I can now hand over to somebody else to lead some of the evidence. I believe that Mr Du Plessis is going to lead the evidence of Mr Bellinghan. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER WITNESS EXCUSED