amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-07-28 PRETORIA 8 MATTHUYS CORNELIUS BOTHA AM7560/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52765&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98072031_pre_cosatu8.htm MR VISSER I beg leave to call Director Matthuys Cornelius Botha. He is incidentally the person that was referred to by General Steyn a moment ago. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] MR VISSER I'm sorry, Volume 1 Mr Chairman, page 187, well it's 188, Mr Chairman. MATTHUYS CORNELIUS BOTHA (sworn states) EXAMINATION BY MR BOTHA Mr Botha, you are applying for amnesty for any unlawful deeds, delicts or omissions regarding any action taken at the Metro Theatre in West Street on the 29th of July 1988 when an explosion was caused. MR BOTHA That is correct. MR VISSER Your application appears on page 188 or Volume 1 and extends until page 194. Do you confirm the truth and correctness of the content thereof and do you request that the information contained therein be incorporated with your evidence before the Committee today? MR BOTHA Yes, that's correct. MR VISSER You also request that Exhibits P45, 46 and 47 be incorporated in your application and your evidence, is that correct? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct. MR VISSER You were born in Springs on 4th of June 1949 and you joined the South African Police, and that you have set out on page 188 until page 189? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR VISSER Could we go directly to the incident. You have just heard the evidence of General Steyn, that he gave an order to one, Matthuys Botha, is that you? MR BOTHA That's correct. MR VISSER With reference to page 189 in Volume 1, could you sketch your recollection of the incidents to the Committee? MR BOTHA On the 29th of July 1998, Colonel Steyn requested me to see him in his office and that is where he briefly explained the situation surrounding the film Cry Freedom to me and said that an order had been received from head office in Pretoria, that the screening of the film inasfar as possible be stopped by means of bomb threats and explosions. He also gave me the order to make telephonic bomb threats to the two local theatres where the first screening of the said film would take place that day. If the theatres reacted to that I should see to it that I myself go to one of the theatres and see to it that a small charge of explosives be placed there. The charge would then go off, with the clear instruction that it only cause minimal damage and no loss of life or injuries. MR VISSER Continue. Perhaps I could just cut it short here. You were kept up to date regarding the political and unrest situation in the country and specifically in Durban and the surrounding environment, is that correct? MR BOTHA Yes. MR VISSER At that stage when you received the order, was it your viewpoint that anything which would increase the revolutionary climate be prevented at all costs? MR BOTHA That is correct. MR VISSER You received the order and what did you do then? MR BOTHA I took a small charge of explosives and fabricated a small device, very simple. MR VISSER Was this taken from supplies which you legally had in your possession? MR BOTHA Yes, these were supplies which I could use when we were to create harmless explosives which we could use in case there were problems with bombs which were to be rendered harmless. MR VISSER Could you just briefly explain how these explosives were used in order to render a bomb harmless? MR BOTHA In cases where we found bombs or explosives which had been placed and there were quite a number of these in KwaZulu Natal and Durban, and if we were not sure how to render this device harmless and there were cases where the device had been removed from the premises where it had been placed and a small of explosives had been detonated. MR VISSER In other words the explosives would be used to set the bomb off, not to destroy it? MR BOTHA Yes, that is correct, under certain circumstance. MR VISSER Continue. MR BOTHA After the small charge of explosives had been put together I made some phone calls to the cinemas where I warned the people there that bombs had been placed as a result of the screening of Cry Freedom. MR VISSER Let's just achieve certainty. You have the one explosive device in your hands, it hasn't been planted? MR BOTHA That's correct. MR VISSER And then you made phone calls to say that bombs may be planted? MR BOTHA That's correct. MR VISSER Good, continue. MR BOTHA After a while I received a telephone call, and I can't remember exactly who called me, but this person said that a bomb threat had been received at the relevant theatres and I myself went to one of the theatres and sent other members of the SAP to the other theatre which was also in Durban city. As I arrived at the theatre I and other members searched the theatre and while I was searching the theatre I didn't check to see if there was actually a bomb but I tried to find a place where I could detonate a small charge. I found an appropriate place in a side passage of the theatre, I beg you pardon, we removed the people from the theatre, those who were going to the theatre and the management and after that I placed the small charge in a side passage of the theatre, detonated it and the other police members who were busy searching were informed by me that I had found a device and were told to leave the premises. After they had left the charge detonated. MR VISSER A docket was opened regarding the matter? MR BOTHA That's correct. MR VISSER And that docket was later closed as unsolved? MR BOTHA That is correct Chairperson. MR VISSER And for your role in this situation you are thus applying for amnesty? MR BOTHA That's correct. MR VISSER Thank you Mr Chairman. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON The same again, has anybody got any questions? FURTHER EXAMINATION BY VISSER I'm sorry, there's one thing I did neglect to ask. Were there any injuries to any person or was any person killed as a result of this action? MR BOTHA No person was injured, no person was killed and the damage was minimal. MR VISSER I'm sorry Mr Chairman, I forgot that. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe? CROSS-EXAMINATION BY ADV MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman. Mr Botha, will you agree with me that the film was about the life of Steve Biko? MR BOTHA That's correct. ADV MPSHE Will you further agree with me that Steve Biko belonged to BCM, Black Consciousness Movement? MR BOTHA That's correct, he belonged to that movement. ADV MPSHE And do you further agree with me, I believe that the BCM was not an alliance of the ANC/SACP? MR BOTHA That's correct. ADV MPSHE Would you again further agree with me that the film about Steve Biko would deal with the doctrines and the convictions of BCM and not ANC/SACP Alliance? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I myself did not see the film but if you put it that way I could agree. ADV MPSHE Are you telling us Mr Botha, that you prepared this explosive to cause damage to the building, without yourself ascertaining whether this was justified? MR BOTHA Chairperson, I received the order from a then Colonel Steyn who told me that it had come from head office and I had the fullest confidence in this order and that is why I executed it. ADV MPSHE What made you believe in him, to make you carry out the instruction? Is it the way he explained it to you, convinced you and told you that this is what I know about the film or what? MR BOTHA Chairperson, yes. At that stage during the 1980's, we experienced a tremendous spate of unrest, acts of terrorism, general dissatisfaction among various political groups and political intolerance. That which was told to me was that this screening would definitely aggravate the climate of unrest and the potential for unrest, and in order to prevent this I had the utmost confidence in that which was told to me and I performed the task. ADV MPSHE So all this was told to you by Mr Steyn? MR BOTHA That which Colonel Steyn said to me was that we were to stop the screening of the film and that this screening would definitely increase the potential for unrest in the KwaZulu Natal area. ADV MPSHE Did Mr Steyn tell you that he was also told by somebody else, somebody unknown to him for that matter? MR BOTHA General Steyn told me that the order had come from head office. MR VISSER He did not give evidence to say that it was somebody unknown to him, he gave evidence that it was ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON He could not remember. MR VISSER ...[inaudible] ADV MPSHE I stand corrected. Now Mr Botha, perhaps a last question, how do you connect then the BCM doctrines and convictions to the doctrines and convictions of the ANC/SACP Alliance? Perhaps to be fair to you, as put on page 191 of your application, paragraph 6 thereof. MR BOTHA Chairperson, as I have stated I myself did not see the film Cry Freedom before the time and at that stage I could not, as the question has been posed, connect the BCM with the ANC/SACP Alliance. ADV MPSHE Was BCM pushing any - was BCM involved in any communism or the taking over of the government by communists? MR BOTHA Chairperson, it was resistance movement, the BCM. I wasn't very well informed regarding the activities of the BCM but I knew that it was a resistance group. ADV MPSHE What do you mean by: "weerstandsgroep"? MR BOTHA A movement that exercised opposition towards the government or the former government. ADV MPSHE You see I'm asking you because a particular sentence, the first sentence on paragraph 6, that the only evidence and the only knowledge some of us may have about people who were involved in communism and wanted to take over the government through communism is ANC and SACP, but you're putting here this aspect in respect of BCM which was not involved in communism. MR BOTHA That's correct, but even the screening of the film as such could have led to further unrest in KwaZulu Natal. ADV MPSHE I'm not talking of the unrest, I'm talking about communism specifically. MR BOTHA Could you please repeat the question, it's possible that I didn't understand it correctly. ADV MPSHE We've agreed that BCM was not involved in communism, it's only ANC and SACP and that is the organisation, ANC and SACP that wanted to take over the government using communism, and not BCM. Are we together so far? MR BOTHA Good. ADV MPSHE Good. Now how do you connect the beliefs and the doctrines and convictions of the ANC to BCM as per first sentence of paragraph 6? MR BOTHA Chairperson, my knowledge of BCM was not very extensive at that stage. As I have mentioned in my evidence, at that point I was more involved with explosives, I was an inspector of explosive and therefore I worked at the desk which specialised, for example in the objectives or I did not work with the objectives of the BCM. ADV MPSHE Finally, then it would mean you're given an instruction by Mr Steyn to go and place a bomb on information given to you and without verifying you went ahead and did that? MR BOTHA That's correct, I had the utmost confidence in General Steyn and the order as he had received it from Pretoria head office. ADV MPSHE If you've already answered what I'm going to ask you, please bear with me. What did General Steyn say to you? MR BOTHA General Steyn gave the order to me that I should stop the screening of Cry Freedom by means of a light explosion without causing any injuries of deaths and that only minimal damage be caused. ADV MPSHE Well I'm more interested in the reasons for that. MR BOTHA The screening of Cry Freedom could have increased the potential for unrest in KwaZulu Natal. ADV MPSHE Thank you Mr Chairman, no further questions. NO FURTHER QUESTIONS BY MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON I take it you've got no re-examination? MR VISSER I have no re-examination Mr Chairman. NO RE-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER CHAIRPERSON Thank you. MR BOTHA Thank you Chairperson. WITNESS EXCUSED MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I'm going to hand over to one of my successors now but I need to make a statement at this stage. It appears that from the side of the Commission, the issue of the reasoning behind acting the way the Cry Freedom people did is now being placed in dispute. We certainly considered this to be a Section 19(3) application all along and apart from that, we certainly never considered to present you with evidence in regard to the Black Consciousness Movement simply because we perhaps incorrectly but because we considered Mr Chairman that it didn't matter where the impulse came from, it could have been Donald Duck for all that one cares, as long as it could be related to a potentially dangerous situation or inflammatory situation and this is the basis upon which we've approached these applications and the basis upon which we've presented them. We'll have to consider now Mr Chairman, whether we should present you with evidence, ask you to view the film. I'm not certain how it can be relevant and where it will take us Mr Chairman but I'm concerned about the questions which are being put by an official of the Amnesty Committee to these applications in this regard. I must tell you that we will have to consider it and decide what we have to do about that. ADV DE JAGER Every witness that testified said that he did this because it could have increased the revolutionary climate. You must decide whether or not this fulfils the requirements of the Act. It's for you to decide. The Committee's decision at the end of the day will be whether or not the deed was associated with a political motive, because that's what the Act says. Unfortunately we can't provide any advice for people because each one of you has enough experience to understand what the Act is about. CHAIRPERSON ...[inaudible] probably enjoy watching the film. Has anyone seen it, who is able to say: "The film was of such a nature, I have seen the film, it would have stirred up feelings"? MR VISSER ...[inaudible] question. I did see the film but I'm not going to give evidence. CHAIRPERSON Before or after the explosions? MR VISSER Before Mr Chairman. I actually saw the film when it was before the Appeals Board. We don't have any further witnesses available at the moment, we would gladly hand over to somebody else now Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON It is in fact due isn't it, you have the two applicants who have arranged not to be here at the moment but will be here? MR VISSER Yes, hopefully tomorrow morning first thing, yes, Mr Chairman. MR POLSEN Mr Chairman, I think the only other witness that is involved in the Cry Freedom situation is my client, Colonel Kendall. I have spoken to him and he's on his way here, he's not here yet. I don't think we must delay the proceedings of the Committee and perhaps we should continue and I suggest that we interpose his evidence for 10 minutes after the lunch break. CHAIRPERSON Where is he coming from? MR POLSEN From Bronkhorstspruit. I have spoken to him about half an hour ago so he ...[intervention] CHAIRPERSON How much longer will it take him to come here, because to interpose and interpose I think is undesirable. If he's going to be here within the next 10, 15 minutes, we will take an adjournment. MR POLSEN I can't confirm that without phoning him. I think perhaps it's a good idea that the Committee continues. ADV DE JAGER Has he got a cellphone? MR POLSEN ...[inaudible] whether he's got a cellphone. ADV DE JAGER Well try and find out. MR POLSEN I will, thank you. CHAIRPERSON Who would the next applicant be? MR HUGO Mr Chairman, Mr de Kock will be the next applicant. CHAIRPERSON We are going to have to interpose tomorrow morning. I don't think it right that we should do so more often than necessary. What are your feelings on the matter? MR HUGO I'm ambivalent as far as that goes Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON I think we will taken an adjournment to await the arrival of your client. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS