amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-07-30 PRETORIA 9 MR FRANK McCARTER AM4063/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52773&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98072031_pre_cosatu9.htm MR BOOYENS At the pre-trial meeting, it was agreed that, I don't whether the list was made available to you, it was in fact agreed that we will deal with the applicants contingent by contingent, and that the next, the Vlakplaas operatives and so, we'd first finish their evidence, thereafter I think the Johannesburg Security Branch, then the technical section and then the Bomb Squad. Now I'm finished as far as Vlakplaas operatives are concerned, so I don't know which of my colleagues is next. MR CORNELIUS Mr Chairman, I've got a problem, my client left at 1:00 and he hasn't returned at 2:00, so I'm a little bit concerned about his safety. I suggest... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON It's twenty to three now. CORNELIUS I'm most concerned. I suggest my colleague, Mr Chris Nel, calls his client and if my client turns up, we can quickly lead. CHAIRPERSON Perhaps he went to a disco somewhere. MR NEL Thank you, Mr Chairman, I would like to refer you, Christo Nel for the record, I would like to refer you to volume 2, at page 171, we'll be dealing with the application of my client, Mr McCarter. First of all, a number of pages were left out of the bundle which we received from Advocate Mpshe, and I have subsequently distributed pages which I marked. The first one was page 172(a), the second one was 173(a), and then the third page that was left out, I marked 174(a). I don't know if everybody's got these pages, I hope so, Mr Chairman. FRANK McCARTER (sworn states) Mr McArthur, if I may refer you to page 171 of the volume that we've just mentioned, is it correct that you're applying for amnesty for any illegal act or offence or any omission that might stem from your involvement in the bombing or explosion at Cosatu House? That's correct, Mr Chairman. Mr Nel, could I just check, is he McArthur or McCarter? 1976, Mr Chairman. That's possible, Mr Chairman. We are now dealing with the matter of Khotso House where you received the instructions from Mr De Kock, and after the preparation you met at a security house in Jo'burg, where you also, on page 173, made mention of a person that was there, a Major At van Niekerk, but you have also told me that this was a mistake, bona fide mistake on your part and you now remember that he was not there at all? That's correct, Mr Chairman. Is it correct that you were part of the contingent which drove, or were driven in the bus that went to Cosatu House on the evening? That's correct, Mr Chairman. That's correct, Mr Chairman. Is it further correct that yourself and the Larry Hanton remained outside and did not actually enter the premises of Cosatu House, while the others which you recall, Mr Le Roux and George Hammond, went in? That's correct, we were there to provide guarding. And as we've heard the evidence of Mr De Kock, where the ladder went missing. Is it so that the ladder was, on the exit of Mr Hammond and Le Roux, was accidentally dropped? That's correct, Mr Chairman. If we may go to page 173(a), paragraph 10, you set out your political objectives, in paragraph 10(a), paragraph 10(b) on page 174, your justification associated with the political objective, you set out your background on page 174, from when you joined the police, from where you joined Koevoet in 1980, you returned in 1984, you worked under Craig Williamson and until up to where you left Vlakplaas at the end of 1987. Do you confirm the contents of your statement on those pages and do you adhere to them? I do, Mr Chairman. Is it so that you believed that you were involved in preventing the ANC with it's Marxist and socialist leanings to violently take over the government of the Republic of South Africa, and that is what you thought and believed in? I did, Mr Chairman. If we may refer you to page 174(a), did you in any way, because of your involvement in the Cosatu House explosion, received any financial benefit or otherwise? No, Mr Chairman. And is it correct that you acted strictly on the orders of Major De Kock at the time, now Colonel? I did, Mr Chairman. You heard the evidence of Colonel De Kock with regards to the political beliefs and what you were told. Do you confirm that evidence? I do, Mr Chairman. That is the evidence, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON ... [inaudible] enough. Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED