amntrans TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION Commission, AMNESTY HEARING 1998-07-30 PRETORIA 9 MR P C SNYDERS AM 5286/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52775&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98072031_pre_cosatu9.htm Thank you, Chairperson, Hannes Botha, appearing on behalf of the applicant, P C Snyders, we are ready to make our submission. I don't know if you expect that we move to the front once again. I know that this morning the light created a problem. MR DE JAGER Would you assist us with the reference? It's volume 1, page 229 until page 234. P C SNYDERS (sworn states) Mr Snyders, I refer you to your amnesty application, volume 1, page 229 until page 234 of the bundled record. You have had insight to the content thereof, is that correct? That is correct. Do you confirm the content of the entire amnesty application? Yes, I do. Subject to the following, and I refer you to page 231 of the bound record, where you say the deed, omission or delict for which you are applying is in reference to Cosatu House, it would appear from the evidence that you are referring to Khotso House? That is correct. You also say at the top that your memory regarding the incident is not very clear and that it may be possible that your memory could be refreshed by means of further information, is that correct? Yes. I refer you to Roman (iv) of paragraph 9(a) in which, amongst others, you say that Dawid Britz and Leon Fleuris were also present during the action, and during discussion and the leading of evidence, it appeared that the possibility exists that they were not present. What is your commentary regarding that? Because it was such a long time ago, I don't have a very good recollection thereof. However, after renewed discussions with some of my colleagues, it would appear that they were not present during the incident. And you reconcile yourself with that? Yes, I do. I refer you to page 4 of your application, page 232 of the bound record, paragraph 2, during which you say "Everybody was armed and received the order to shoot anybody who could raise an alarm." It was put to Colonel De Kock that this could have been the incorrect choice of words and that the content of that should actually be:- "In extreme circumstances, such violence could be applied in order to save the action"? That is correct. You also say at the bottom of the page, the second last paragraph, approximately a week after the incident, the then Minister of Law and Order, Mr Vlok, addressed you at Vlakplaas and congratulated you for your action at Johannesburg. It appears that this could be a mistake, that it was not in fact a week afterwards, but much longer than that? I agree. You refer specifically to the action in Johannesburg, that this was what you were thanked for. Were those the direct words or the inference that you drew, or can you not remember precisely? That is the inference that I drew. Not, the words Khotso House or Cosatu House were never specifically used, but I assumed that that was what we were thanked for. And then in paragraph 10(d) on page 233 of the minutes, you say, with regard to any financial gain, you refer to an incident where Steve Bosch, one of the applicants in this matter which has been served to the Committee, two days after the incident Steve Bosch wanted to hand over calculators to you, which apparently had been retrieved from the debris at Khotso House, but that you refused it? It would appear that calculators were indeed brought to Vlakplaas, but only arrived there much later. Do you reconcile yourself with that, that it could possibly be those calculators which were mentioned? Yes, I do. You also then request, or let me put it to you that do you understand that the total import of your involvement in Khotso House was driving the mini-bus from Vlakplaas to Honeydew, and from Honeydew until Khotso House, where other members placed the explosives, after which you transported the members back to Vlakplaas? That is correct. Thank you, Chairperson, no further questions. Visser on record, Mr Chairman. Mr Snyders, page 232, you state, or let me put it to you like this, Colonel De Kock said that he asked Brigadier Erasmus what would happen if policemen were to arrive. He said, "Shoot them dead". What would happen if members of the public arrived there? He said, "Shoot them dead", and then it continues. Apparently it was mentioned that if one of your people spoke to somebody regarding the incident, he personally would shoot that person dead. It's starting to look like a joke. Did you really take this seriously? Yes, Chairperson, I believe that it creates the wrong impression, the use of those specific words, I think that General Erasmus said it as such that we should appreciate the seriousness of the situation and that it was not to be taken up literally. Sorry, Mr Chairman, Rossouw. I've got just two questions, or rather, that I would like to put to the witness. Mr Snyders, on page 231, I heard what you said... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON Could I ask, as a personal favour, if counsel would also refer to the numbering on the bottom of the page? My copies have had the other numbers cut off and I can't read them. So if you could refer both to the 231 and also the page number at the bottom? Sorry, Mr Chairman, that is, I think, the typed number, page No 3. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Snyders, I heard what you said regarding your recollection and the members that you said would have been involved, but I'd like to put it to you, regarding Khotso House, Mr Dawid Britz was not involved. You mention his name. Would you make that concession? I have already said that I will make that concession. And then finally, I'd also like to put it to you, arising from page 233, the incident regarding the calculators, that it's also Mr Bosch's recollection that this pertains to another incident and does not involve a later incident as quoted by you? It may have been later, but what I wanted to say was that I received these calculators after the Khotso House bomb incident. I've got no further questions, Mr Chairman. MR RADITAPOLE It's Raditapole, Mr Chair. Chairperson, the discretion was left to us that should the operation fail, we could go over to extreme violence and thus kill somebody, but that would only be in the event of the failure of the operation or if one of us were to be in a situation of danger. It has been mentioned that weapons and ammunition had been stored in the building and our members could have been in danger, and if one of our members had been in danger, we would have had to go over to extreme violence. Yes, but the point is this, is that the instruction wasn't given by General Erasmus to you? The instruction was given by Brigadier Erasmus at that point, while we were in the safety premises, not specifically to me, but to everybody. Okay. MR CORNELIUS Mr Chair, my client has arrived, I don't know if my learned friend, Mr Rossouw has finished all his clients. I think that would be appropriate. MR ROSSOUW Mr Chairman, one of my clients are also not here at present, I don't know where he is, I hope he will be here shortly, and if Mr Cornelius can proceed at this time?