amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-07-30 PRETORIA 9 NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN AM 4358/96 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52776&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98072031_pre_cosatu9.htm NICOLAAS JOHANNES VERMEULEN (sworn states) Mr Vermeulen, you have applied for amnesty and your application has been partially included on page 268 and 269 in the bundle before the Committee? That is correct. You will note that with the presentation of the pieces, we have seen that, notwithstanding the extent of your application, only two folios of that application has been included? That is correct. You have also prepared a document which has been submitted to the Commission, in which you have an affidavit which explains all the facts and there is currently a document in preparation which will make the facts more convenient to you and will be handed in to the members of the Committee? That is correct. With the leave of the chairperson, I would like to proceed. CHAIRPERSON Sal ons dit 268(a) noem? As it pleases you, Chair. Mr Vermeulen, paragraphs 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 of your application, do you confirm the content thereof? That is correct, Chairperson. Paragraph 8(a), you were in the service of the South African Police and you were stationed at C Section, of which evidence has been given to the Committee? That is correct. Paragraph 8(b), you have explained your schooling and your training until the 3rd of April 1990, where you were discharged from service by the South African Police for medical reasons? That is correct. You have schedule 1 and schedule 2. Schedule 1 gives the details of the bomb explosion in which you were involved at Cosatu House on the 7th of May 1987, and schedule 2 the bomb explosion at Khotso House with which you were also involved? That's correct. You confirm paragraph 9(a), Roman (i), (ii) and (iii)? That's correct, Chairperson. Paragraph Roman (iv), you were connected to Section C10 or C1 of the South African Police stationed at Vlakplaas. You confirm that you received an order from Eugene de Kock to be available for an operation in Johannesburg. Is that so? That's correct. Were you involved in the planning for the operation at Khotso House? No. Did you receive orders, or did you obey the orders from Colonel De Kock? Yes, that's correct. Do you have respect for Colonel De Kock? Very much so. Did you ever doubt his credibility with regard to the orders that he gave you? No. And you never questioned the authorisation for operations in which you were involved, especially with regard to the expressions of gratitude by ministers such as Minister Vlok, the logistical support and liaison with head office and such, did that not lead you to doubt the authorisation for these orders? No. If you were not to follow through with an order, as you heard in the testimony of General Van der Merwe, would it have held consequences for you in the police? Yes. It has also been testified by General Van der Merwe and also Colonel De Kock that you could possibly be transferred away from the unit and branded by your cohorts? That is correct. Before the Cosatu House operation was executed, you gathered at Vlakplaas, you tested the ropes which you were going to use in the operation for climbing? That is correct. On page 3 of the annexure, you say that upon your arrival at Cosatu House, you parked at the back of the building, the mini-bus was parked against the fence, the bars were cut and members went through and you were one of these members? That's correct. Can you remember the members who remained in the mini-bus? No. In the building itself, and I understand it was your duty to keep watch, that you should not be overcome by anybody who would appear on the scene? That's correct. And the charges were then planted by members of the Explosives Unit? That's correct. And then, on page 3 of your statement, you say that you left the building, went to Pretoria and heard later that the explosion had been a success. You then celebrated at Vlakplaas on that particular evening? That is correct. Did you ever personally determine what level of damage you incurred? No. According to you, nobody was killed during the explosion? Not as far as I know. You will recall that Mr Vlok congratulated you on your conduct? That is correct. Then, very briefly, the content of (b) and (c) on page 4, do you confirm that as well as Roman (iv) on page 5? Yes, I do confirm that. Paragraph 10(a), was your political objective also the maintenance and protection of the former government's political order in the Republic in its struggle to oppose the political onslaught of the ANC/SACP alliance? That is correct. Did you also work on a need to know basis at the unit? Yes. Did you believe that Cosatu House held a threat for the former political order? Yes. And then you have given an explanation in 10(b), folio 5 and 6 of the application, that you carried out your duties in service of the South African Police, that you committed these acts as part of the execution of your duties in this struggle, and that you regarded Colonel De Kock's orders as legal and lawful? That is correct. Did you regard it as the task of the police to assist the Security Branch to defend the former political order from this onslaught? That's correct. Paragraph 11(a) and (b), do you confirm the content thereof, of those two paragraphs, that you acted as part of a State Department and that you acted according to the orders of Colonel Eugene de Kock of C Section of the South African Police? Yes, I do. Very briefly, Schedule 2, paragraph 9(a), Roman (i) to (iv), do you confirm the content of these paragraphs? Yes. To expedite the proceedings, you were part of the Cosatu House explosion? Yes. Did you enter the building? No. That is correct. You did not take part in the planning? No. You once again followed all the orders given by Colonel Eugene de Kock? Yes, that's correct. Before the operation you gathered at Honeydew, there were various members of the Security Branch, you cannot recall the specific names of these people? No. After the mini-bus had been parked at Khotso House, the explosives were off-loaded in canvas bags and picked up by members who were standing on the wall? That's correct. The members of C Section then scaled the wall down in the direction of Colonel De Kock and you waited at the wall? That's correct. You and a person who you suspect is Douw Willemse? That is correct. After a while you say that you began to return and you moved to an open parking space behind the Braamfontein Hotel? That is correct. There you waited, the explosion followed and you then moved back, I think you told me yesterday that you went back to Honeydew again and then back to Vlakplaas? That is correct. So you would just like to make an amendment to folio 4, that you did go to Honeydew before you went back to Vlakplaas? That's correct. Did you determine whether or not any damage had been done to the building? No. Was it your knowledge that no-one was killed during the explosion? That's correct. The political objective, as you have already testified before this Committee is the same in paragraph 10(a) in relation to Cosatu House and your motivation in paragraph 10(b) is the same as your motivation for the Cosatu House explosion? That's correct. Did you receive any financial remuneration or gain from the Cosatu House or Khotso House incidents? No. You are applying before this Committee for amnesty for the two bomb explosions in which you were involved and whichever unlawful acts may have emanated from that and any civil or criminal action which may be taken in terms of the incidents? That is correct. Mr Chairman, Visser on record. Mr Chairman, we're at the disadvantage that we somehow did not receive the documentation to which reference has been made. We didn't want to interfere, but may we ask your indulgence to let this gentleman's cross-examination stand down until we've just had an opportunity of looking whether there isn't something lurking in the wings in the papers that we have to deal with? It's very unlikely, but just for that possibility, Mr Chairman. MR CORNELIUS I'm sorry, Mr Chairman, we did forward it, but apparently it was mislaid. It is available now to my learned colleague, Mr Visser. I don't suggest that you should wait for me, certainly not, Mr Chairman, it seems like quite a bit, but I'll try to deal with it as soon as... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON There's a lot of duplication, Mr Visser. I concur. Mr Vermeulen, with regard to the Cosatu House incident, Du Plessis, on record here, do you remember anything about the ladder which was used? That's correct. And can you remember that the ladder was left behind? Yes. And the other person from the Bomb Disposal Unit who entered the building, can you recall whether it was George Hammond and Pierre le Roux, or can you not remember? I'm not certain. However you would not dispute this? That's correct. Yes. As far as you can recall? Yes, as far as I can recall. Thank you, Mr Chairman, I have no further questions. MR DE JAGER Just one question. You have indicated a person who remained outside with you, Douw Willemse? That's correct, Chairperson. MR DE JAGER Is that the person who was injured and cannot be here today? Yes, that's correct. MR DE JAGER Were you and he together for just about most of the time that evening, or can you not remember? I'm not entirely certain, but I know that we helped the people up over the wall, we stood guard there until the others returned, upon which we climbed back into the mini-bus. MR DE JAGER So therefore his role and your role were pretty much the same? Yes, that's correct. MR CORNELIUS Mr Chairman, just for the record, in response to that question, that is also my instructions. CHAIRPERSON It seems as if the evidence can be given by other witnesses, it might not be necessary to hear evidence from Mr Willemse, we have his application before us, so I think that if you want to see if you can get any other information from this witness, you're at liberty to do so. 271, was that part of his original application, the last page in volume 2? MR CORNELIUS Mr Chairman, that was a short summary, which was bound in. Unfortunately when the Motherwell issue was heard, the whole application was dissected into millions of pieces, and that is only part of a summary. CHAIRPERSON Well I'd like to ask a question arising from that, if he is in a position to answer, and that's about Khanya House. Can he give a date? Unfortunately not, Chairperson, I cannot. I was there, yes sir. CHAIRPERSON It's been mentioned by various people and I thought we could... (intervention). MR MPSHE If Mr Chairman would like to have the date, I have the date here. CHAIRPERSON Oh well I've got the letter, so I should have, till I handed it to you, what was the date? MR MPSHE 12 October '88. CHAIRPERSON 12 October '88. MR MPSHE '88. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. There seems to be no further questions, thank you. MR VISSER Mr Chairman, I have gone through the document and I do have only one point to make please, Mr Chairman. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR VISSER Mr Vermeulen on page 3, I don't know how to identify these documents, but this is your application... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON 268(a), the new one. Thank you, Mr Chairman, 268(a), you say that Minister Vlok in November attended a function at Vlakplaas and congratulated all of you, do you remember that? That is correct, Chairperson. You further say that the congratulations were extended with the success of the Cosatu House operation. We know that no reference was made to any specific operation. However, people made the necessary inferences that they were being congratulated by the former minister regarding determined incidents because they had been involved therein? That's correct. And would you agree that this November month would have to refer to November 1988 and not 1987? That's correct. Thank you, Mr Chairman, that appears to be all, from what I could glance at, thank you.