amntrans TRUTH AND RECONCILIATION Commission, AMNESTY HEARING 1998-07-30 PRETORIA 9 MR M D RAS AM 5183/97 https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52777&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98072031_pre_cosatu9.htm MR JANSEN MR MPSHE CHAIRPERSON We haven't reached that point yet, we don't know if he's going to testify or not, I haven't been told what his present state of his health is. He is the person, isn't he, who was stabbed the other night? MR ROSSOUW That is correct. CHAIRPERSON Yes, I don't know what his health is at the moment, there hasn't been any application making. I was merely suggesting that his counsel might start building up. MR MPSHE Thank you, Mr Chairman. M D RAS (sworn states) MR JANSEN Thank you. Mr Chairman, just at the inception, Mr Chairman, the document that has just been handed to you is just a notice of an amendment, the first two pages, and a confirmatory affidavit relating to those amendments. The first amendment, paragraph 1 of the notice, relates to paragraph 9(a) which you find at page 200 of volume 1, that is obviously just necessitated by the fact the sub-paragraph Roman (i) only refers to the incidents or the offences committed as "ontploffing", and then it's just, that is just given greater detail. The second one just relates to the exact date of Cosatu, of the Cosatu House incident, which has, since the application was drafted, has been established as being 7 May 1987. I then move for these amendments. CHAIRPERSON The application is granted. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Ras, you were involved in the Cosatu House incident and your role was to drive the kombi to Johannesburg and back, in which some of the Vlakplaas operatives and some of the explosives experts people were, is that correct? That's correct. Your application regarding this incident appears on paginated pages 195 of volume 1 to 205, 207 rather, is that correct? INTERPRETER The speaker's microphone is off. There are certain qualifications ...[inaudible] PROBLEMS WITH MICROPHONES MR JANSEN ...[inaudible] page 201, Roman numeral (iv), you mention that Mr Brood van Heerden and Mr Hennie Kotze were also involved in this incident. It appears from their own applications that they were not involved, it appears that they were not involved in this incident, but only in the Khotso House incident, could you perhaps explain to us how that confusion slipped in? Chairperson, perhaps I can correct that, at Cosatu House, Major Hammond was involved, but it's only Kotze who wasn't involved. ADV DE JAGER He's not referring to Hammond, he's referring to Brood van Heerden and Kock. Ekskuus tog, goed. Could you perhaps explain to us how that confusion arose? With the drafting of my application for amnesty, some confusion arose between Khotso House and Cosatu House and I made a mistake by, instead of mentioning Mr Pierre le Roux, I mentioned Hennie Kotze, and that Brood van Heerden was not involved. Right. Could you just place this in context, when you were busy compiling this amnesty application, you were busy refreshing your memory from conversations with some of the other people who were witnesses, or rather gave evidence, and people who were involved in the witness protection unit of the TRC? That is correct. If you look at page 203, paragraph (b) there, you say that various people were injured or slash you are not aware of any. Could you please explain to us how that apparent contradiction found its way into the papers? It happened in the same way, I had discussions with other members about certain information and confusion arose between Khotso and Cosatu Houses in those two incidents and they mentioned to me that certain people were injured. I didn't know whether people were actually injured in the Cosatu House incident. But Mr McAdam wasn't there at all, he was not at all involved. Now is he somebody who has something to do with witness protection? Yes. Directly after I returned from that incident, they helped me to actually draft my application for amnesty. In any event, that part of your application was based on hearsay? Yes. Something else which needs to be placed in context, you say, referring to the function which Minister Vlok attended, that he congratulated you on the operation of Cosatu House. Cosatu House, was it mentioned by name by the minister? No, that is the inference which I drew as a result of my involvement in the Khanya and Cosatu House incidents. Would you then also go to your background on page 195 to 200. You are familiar with that background sketch concerning yourself? That's correct. And you confirm that? Yes. As far as your political motives and motivation is concerned, in paragraph 10 and following, you there confirm, do you confirm the allegations contained in those paragraphs? Yes. Did you identify the ANC with Cosatu as far as the politics of the country was concerned? As far as my limited knowledge at the time went, yes. At the bottom of page 205, you there refer to Brigadier Schoon, Minister Vlok and Colonel Eugene De Kock as being the people who gave the orders. The person who personally conveyed the order to you was Colonel De Kock? Yes, that's correct. I have no further questions, Chairperson. Thank you, Mr Chairman. Hugo, on behalf of Mr De Kock. Mr Ras, could I refer you to page 201 at the bottom of the page, where you say that during this gathering of highly placed people, Colonel De Kock mentioned to us that the Security Branch in Johannesburg approached you to assist. Colonel De Kock says that that is not what he told, that this was an order which came from the top. Would you concede? Yes, I will concede that. I have no further questions. Thank you, Mr Chairman, Rossouw on record. Mr Ras, thank you for the comment that Mr Van Heerden was not involved, as mentioned in the application. Just for final clarity, I would like to put it to you that Mr Van Heerden was not even a member of the South African Police in 1987. That is just to make very sure. MR DE JAGER This is not the Mr Van Heerden who is applicant No 6, this is a different Mr Van Heerden? That is correct. This is the Brood van Heerden that I mentioned, yes, he was not involved there. MR JANSEN Mr Chairman, I didn't understand this, applicant No 6 is indeed the Mr Van Heerden that I'm referring to. MR ROSSOUW So is this Brood van Heerden? Yes, indeed. ADV DE JAGER So he was not involved in which incident? Cosatu House. ADV DE JAGER Is he an applicant for Khotso House? Yes, he is, as well as the Cry Freedom incident. Thank you. MR LAMEY Chairperson, a single question to the witness. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR LAMEY wasn't present at one big gathering where the motivation for the action was given. I would just like to add and say that I only became involved in this operation at a very late stage, and the people who were mentioned could also have been involved at a later stage, for instance the evening when we practised our rope work, and I will concede when your client says that perhaps it was discussed on a separate occasion by Mr De Kock. Thank you, Chairperson, I have no further questions. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. WITNESS EXCUSED