amntrans AMNESTY HEARING 1998-08-03 MMABATHO OLD PARLIAMENT BUILDING 1 O B MENJATSOE https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/hearing.php?id=52780&t=&tab=hearings https://sabctrc.saha.org.za/originals/amntrans/1998/98080304_mma_mmabath1.htm CHAIRPERSON Morning everybody, I apologise for the late start in this matter, but there were discussions going on amongst the legal representatives, and also there were delays caused by setting up the venue. Could the legal representatives - well let me start off by just introducing the panel. On my far right, is Advocate Sigodi, she's an advocate from Port Elizabeth, on my immediate right is Advocate Bosman, from the Cape, on my left is Advocate Motata, he's from Johannesburg, and I am Selwyn Miller, a judge from the Transkei. Could the legal representatives please place themselves on record? MR RAMPHELKE My name is Tshepiso Ramphelke, I am from Lawyers for Human - representing the applicant. MR HENDRICKS My name is Advocate Ronnie Hendricks, I'm an advocate of the local bar, representing the applicant. MR ENGELBRECHT May it please you, Mr Chairman and the committee, I'm representing the AWB, and Mr Terreblanche, the name is Engelbrecht and I'm from the Pretoria Bar. MR VAN DEN BERG As the Court pleases, Chairman, I'm from the Pretoria Bar, my name is Gerhard van den Berg, and I appear on behalf of Mrs Uys. MR MPSHE J M Mpshe, Mr Chairman, members of the committee, representing the Truth Commission and more particularly the Amnesty Committee. CHAIRPERSON Mr Engelbrecht, I believe that there are some problems existing with the commencement of this matter? That is correct, Mr Chairman, the AWB, who is opposing the application for amnesty received the documents on the 31st of July 1998 at 17:45. I was briefed on Saturday, and due to insufficient time, we were unable to properly prepare, and amongst other things, we tried to get hold a reporter of the Sunday Times, a Peter de Ionno, whom we say is an essential witness in these proceedings. The offices of the Sunday Times was not prepared to supply us with his home telephone number, he was not on duty at the state, neither would they give us his address, so we were unable, over the weekend to make contact with this witness. We had a look at a video shown to us this morning by my colleague, Mr Mpshe, and having seen that video, I'm more convinced that it is absolutely necessary that I speak with the gentleman concerned. He was an eye witness and could supply vital information regarding the conduct of the applicant at the relevant period. There is also a Ray Hartley of the Sunday Times whom we'd like to speak with. So my application is for a postponement to enable me to properly prepare and consult with the necessary witnesses, which was not possible due to the late receiving of the documents concerned. I submit it is in the interests of all parties concerned that the proper facts be laid before this committee. Subject to the chairman's approval, we have arranged a date, which would be the week of the 21st of September to the 25th of September. We appreciate that there is a public holiday in between, but it is our expectation that we should complete the matter in four days. If not, we might consider utilising the public holiday, but my application, on behalf of the AWB, is that the matter then be postponed to afford us the opportunity to consult with these witnesses. CHAIRPERSON And is it your view, Mr Engelbrecht, that should the applicants testify today, you wouldn't be in a position to properly cross-examine them until you've consulted with those witnesses you've mentioned? MR ENGELBRECHT Correct, Mr Chairman, I would not be in a position to effectively cross-examine the applicant until such time as I've had an opportunity to consult with the witness. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hendricks, do you have any submissions? MR HENDRICKS Mr Chairman, I don't oppose the application for a postponement, but I would urge this committee not to do this hearing piecemeal, so if a postponement is considered, we can start on the 21st of September. CHAIRPERSON Yes, you're saying that it would be not desirable for the evidence in chief to be led today and then there be that period of approximately six or seven weeks, whatever it is, before cross-examination? MR HENDRICKS That is indeed my submission, Mr Chairman. CHAIRPERSON Mr Van den Berg? MR VAN DEN BERG Mr Chairman, we are ready to proceed, but we don't object the request for a postponement. So if this matter has to be postponed, we will accept it, but we are ready at the moment to proceed with this matter. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Mr Mpshe? MR MPSHE Thank you, Mr Chairman. Mr Chairman, I do not oppose the application for postponement, for one reason, inasfar as it pertains to Mr Engelbrecht's consultation with the journalist only, and not, I disagree inasfar as it goes to receiving of documents and other things. CHAIRPERSON Thank you, Mr Mpshe. Mr Engelbrecht, I take it your instructions are to oppose the application? MR ENGELBRECHT That is correct, Mr Chairman, we oppose the application for amnesty. CHAIRPERSON And you've heard what Mr Mpshe says, is there any explanation as to why you were only briefed on Friday late, or Saturday morning when notice was (indistinct) 2nd of June? MR ENGELBRECHT Mr Chairman, my instructions are that a fax was sent for a copy of the documentation, a telephone call was made, and that is why the documents, apparently the documents were sent by courier, and somehow along at Kimberley, there was a delay at Kimberley by the courier, and that is why we received the documents so late. May I also place on record that the findings of the Tebbutt Commission was only made public on Thursday, which also dealt with this matter as an inquest, and we only heard about that on Friday morning, and having seen and read a certain portion of the findings of the Tebbutt Commission and the finding as to the credibility of a certain witness which testified makes it imperative for me to consult with the two journalists, because it is quite possible that they might give a different version as to what happened, and that's why I'm asking to consult with them and prepare. ADVOCATE MOTATA Mr Engelbrecht, as regards what Advocate Mpshe has said, that section 19 notices were sent as early in July... (intervention). CHAIRPERSON June. ADV MOTATA Could I just take instructions on that? I'm instructed that the notice was sent to Mr Eugene Terreblanche in his personal capacity, and not to the body, the AWB, the general staff. It was only at a later stage that the AWB decided to, as a body, to oppose the application for amnesty. CHAIRPERSON Mr Hendricks, from the applicant's point of view, you were ready to proceed today? MR HENDRICKS Yes, Mr Chairman, we were. CHAIRPERSON Mr Mpshe, I take it it will be at the same venue? MR MPSHE It will be in the same venue, Mr Chairman, thank you. CHAIRPERSON At this venue, and Mr Engelbrecht, if I could please impress that we commence on that day, whatever happens, it is approximately six or seven weeks from now, that should give sufficient time to enable you to properly prepare yourself. As it pleases you, Mr Chairman, may I make an application that the committee issues an instruction that the two witnesses, Peter de Ionno and Ray Hartley, be subpoenaed for the 23rd of September? CHAIRPERSON I think if you could just speak to Mr Mpshe about that, Mr Engelbrecht, and we can deal with it out of here, I don't know what the, if there are any complications in that regard, because the issuing of subpoenas does not come from the committee itself, if you read the Act, it comes from the commission and it's got to be signed by a commissioner, so I'm sure some arrangement can be made in that regard. Mr Mpshe, there was another matter set down, the matter of Ambrose Armstrong Ross, I see in my documentation it was only set down for the 5th of August, that's Wednesday, would it be possible at all to make arrangements for that to be brought forward at least until tomorrow morning, and then allow us two days to hear that matter, rather than just the one? MR MPSHE Thank you, Mr Chairman, actually I've already started fast-tracking it to tomorrow. The committee will know before 12:00 midnight today whether we are going on tomorrow, but I have already started negotiations. CHAIRPERSON Thank you. Yes, well then that is the situation, the matter is postponed and I apologise for any inconvenience caused to the people who have come, because of the postponement, but unfortunately I think in order that this matter be properly handled, that it be postponed. We'll adjourn at this stage and then we'll reconvene as soon as possible, probably tomorrow, for the other matter that we're hearing, that is the application of Ambrose Armstrong Ross. Thank you. COMMITTEE ADJOURNS MATTER POSTPONED TO 21 SEPTEMBER 1998